1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Before we start. One production note. In this episode, we 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: again have quotes from Roll Dall. Rather than just have 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: me read them in my terrible British accent, we decided 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: to bring them to life, so we use an actor's 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: performance and some custom software to create a Doll like voice. Okay, 6 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: onto the episode, Roll Dall says, comfortably at home giving 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: which should be a casual, breezy phone interview to a 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: popular magazine called The New Statesman. It's nineteen eighty three. 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: Doll is at this point, without question, the most famous 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: and most successful children's author of all time. The BFG 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: came out just last year and was a phenomenon. The 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: Witches is about to be published. A critical acclaim on 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: the phone with Dall is Michael Koran, a young theater critic. 14 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: Koran is just out of college. He's not an experienced 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: journalist or some sort of master interrogator. This isn't some 16 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: kind of brilliant gotcha moment, but Doll is in one 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: of his dark moods. Koran asked about a book review 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: that Dall recently wrote. The book centered on the very 19 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: thorny topic of the Israel's invasion of Lebanon. The previous year. 20 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: Doll decides he doesn't just want to talk about the 21 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: book or his review of it. He wants to widen things. 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: He wants to talk about the Holocaust, you know, the 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: generational tragedy where six million Jewish men, women and children 24 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: were systematically exterminated. It might be the most softball topic 25 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: in all of journalism. Anyone in their right mind recognizes 26 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: the immense scale of the horror and expresses a firm 27 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: desire for it never to be forgotten and to never 28 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: happen again. Instead, here's what Roald Dahl says to the 29 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: young journalist. There is a trait in the Jewish character 30 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: that does provoke animosity. Maybe it's a kind of lack 31 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: of generosity towards non Jews. I mean, there's always a 32 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: reason why anti anything crops up anywhere. And then he 33 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: goes on to say, even a stinker like Hitler didn't 34 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: just pick on them for no reason. Ugh, Okay, this 35 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: is what we've been waiting for, folks. Here we go 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: in my hard podcast, Imagine Entertainment and Parallax. I'm Aaron Tracy, 37 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: and this is the Secret world of Roald Dahl. Episode seven. Now, 38 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: if you're worried, we're about to waste a whole lot 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: of time dissecting one unrepresentative quote that didn't really reflect 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: who Doll was or what he believed in. Don't be 41 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: the quote I just read wasn't a one off comment. 42 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: There's extensive evidence of Doll's bigotry. Dall biographer Jeremy Treglone 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: records a bunch of problematic stuff that Dahl said and 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: did throughout his life. At a social club, for instance, 45 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: Doll's daughter Tessa remembers her father complained about the number 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: of Jews who were members. He got drunk one night 47 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: and stood up to make a speech. Diners at nearby 48 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: tables told him to shut up. Doll was thrown out 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: and his club membership was revoked, says Treglone. Dall's editor, 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: the legendary Robert Gottlieb, who worked with so many brilliant writers, 51 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: from Nora Ephron to Tony Morrison to Robert Carrow. He 52 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: believes that dolls prejudice against Jews grew worse after he 53 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: and Dahl had a falling out. Now a little context. 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: Career wise, Doll was on top, having already published most 55 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: of his iconic children's books. But in his personal life, 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: Dall was a bit of a mess. He had divorced 57 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: Patricia Neil after thirty years of marriage. He was in 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: constant physical pain from back surgery stemming from that crash 59 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: in the desert decades earlier. And while he's having all 60 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: this career success, he's very insecure about people thinking he 61 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: can only write for kids. So when he's offered the 62 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: chance to review a book about Israel in a literary journal, 63 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: he sees it as a rare opportunity to write for adults, 64 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: and he's going to make the most of it. As 65 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned, the review comes out in nineteen eighty three. 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: It's not excusing Dall to say that certain prejudices were 67 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: more common in mainstream culture back then. Just look at 68 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: our movies of the era. Some of the biggest films 69 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty three to nineteen eighty four were Sixteen Candles, 70 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: the John Hughes classic featuring Long Duck Dung, The Chinese Exchange, 71 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: student Trading Places, The Edding If You Break Out, which 72 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: includes blackface along with a bunch of class based stereotypes, 73 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: Indiana Jones, and The Temple of Doom, where Indian characters 74 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: are depicted as either noble mystics or bloodthirsty savages. And 75 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: on TV three's Company is The Big Show, which is 76 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: basically one long gay panic joke. Now a confession, I 77 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: still love some of those movies, and that's part of 78 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: why this is so complicated. I can still laugh at 79 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the jokes in trading places and just 80 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: ignore the offensive ones. But I know I'm in a 81 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: privileged position to be able to do that, and of 82 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: course not everybody wants to do that. So back to 83 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: that book review, it's just as problematic as the interview 84 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: he gives about it. It's for the journal Literary Review. 85 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: The book tells the story of the recent Israeli siege 86 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: of Baybery, but in his review, Dog goes beyond the 87 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: contents of the book. He takes the opportunity to write 88 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: a passionate denunciation of the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict, which 89 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: he brought ends into an attack on Israel and Jewish 90 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: people everywhere. And yes, this has a of contemporary relevance. 91 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,119 Speaker 1: The same stuff is happening all over again today. Here's 92 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of Dolls book review. 93 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: In June nineteen forty one, I happened to be in 94 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: of all places, Palestine, flying with the Arif against the Bishi, 95 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: French and the Nazis. Hitler happened to be in Germany, 96 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: and the gas chambers were being built, and the mass 97 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 2: slaughter of the Jews was beginning. Our hearts bled for 98 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: the Jewish men, women and children, and we hated the Germans. 99 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so far dolls throwing in some of his own 100 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: biography to relate to the contents of the buck, and 101 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: then he continues. 102 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 2: Exactly forty one years later, in June nineteen eighty two, 103 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: the Israeli forces were streaming northwards out of what used 104 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: to be Palestine into Lebanon, and the mass slaughter of 105 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: the inhabitants began. Our hearts bled for the Lebanese and 106 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: Palestinian men, women and children, and we all started hating 107 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: the Israelis. 108 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so he's connecting what he saw as a pilot 109 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: in the war with what he sees now, but then 110 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: ramps up to this referring to the Jewish people. 111 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: Never before in the history of Man has a race 112 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: of people switched so rapidly from being much pitted victims 113 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: to barbarous murderers. Never before has a race of people 114 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: generated so much sympathy around the world, and then, in 115 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: the space of a lifetime, succeeded in turning that sympathy 116 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: into hatred and revulsion. It is as though a group 117 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 2: of much loved nuns in charge of an orphanage had 118 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: suddenly turned around and started murdering all the children. 119 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: He continues, It is. 120 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: Like the good old Hitler and Himler times all over again. 121 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: Wow, there's a lot there, like calling a whole race 122 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: of people, namely the Jews, barbarous murderers because he opposes 123 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: the actions of a handful of people in the Israeli government. Honestly, 124 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm just not enough of an expert in these issues 125 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: to do this conversation justice, So I want to bring 126 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: in someone who is Yeah, you're Rosenberg has dedicated his 127 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: professional life to study and thinking about this stuff in 128 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: a really brilliant way. Yayir is a writer for The Atlantic. 129 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: He's also written for The Washington Posts, The New York Times, 130 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal, you name it. He speaks around 131 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: the world on the topic of anti Semitism and I 132 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: love this. He's credited with coining the sarcastic Internet term 133 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: Gerbel's gap, which is the amount of time between a 134 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: negative event transpiring in the world and someone finding a 135 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: way to blame it on the Jews. I'm going to 136 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: ask Gayer to help provide context for various things Dall said. 137 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: First up, I asked Gayer why blaming all Jews for 138 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: the actions of the Israeli leadership is thought to be antisemitic. 139 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a general human tendency here and a 140 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: particular anti Jewish one. Generally speaking, a lot of prejudice 141 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: takes the form of people looking at a minority group 142 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: and saying, anybody in this minority community that does anything 143 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 3: or says anything reflects on the entire group and every 144 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: person in it, such that if you're a member of minority, 145 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 3: you're collectively culpable for what anyone else and that minority 146 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: may say or do anywhere, no matter where they are, 147 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 3: and no matter your connection or lack there off to 148 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: those people. And that's not unique to Jews, right, that's 149 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 3: textbook racism, textbook bigotry. Think the spike in anti Muslim 150 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: hate crimes after nine to eleven, which was people taking 151 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 3: out anger at a specific group of fundamentalist terrorists on 152 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 3: everyday Americans who happened to have some identifying characteristic that 153 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: they associated with them. And so that is the general 154 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 3: human tendency towards prejudice. That's an old, old thing that 155 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: many of us have experienced or seen. And then there's 156 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 3: this specifically Jewish version of it where you see people 157 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: saying that, yeah, old Jews are to blame for anything 158 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 3: else any other Jew did in my perception, but you 159 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 3: have to think of Rode Doll in this particular context. 160 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: He was raised on a continent that for centuries persecuted, abused, expelled, 161 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: and murdered Jews over allegations of what other Jews thousands 162 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 3: of miles away did in the Middle East, namely they 163 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: allegedly killed Jesus, and that was seen to justify centuries 164 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: of anti Semitism on the European continent. Roade Doll grows 165 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 3: up in that place, right, that sort of way of 166 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: thinking about Jews, and you know, is part of what 167 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 3: pays the way for the Holocaust and the ideas of 168 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 3: the Nazis spread. It's not particularly new. It does get 169 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 3: secularized later on, where the Jews in Europe and the 170 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: United States and elsewhere get attacked over whatever Jews thousands 171 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: of miles away in the Middle East may have done, 172 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 3: and that somebody is angry about. It's not exactly different, 173 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: it's just the name's changed. And so in that way, 174 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: Dallas reflecting a general human tendency towards prejudice, and he's 175 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: also reflecting a very age old story that people tell 176 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: about Jews. And I think actually he's not particularly unique 177 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: in this respect. As you can see, this is a 178 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 3: very common way of thinking about minorities as mendacious monoliths. 179 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: What is unique is us asking the question and saying, 180 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: maybe we shouldn't do that. We're the exception. He's actually 181 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: the rule. 182 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: Interesting, and I mean we see this a lot today. Obviously, 183 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: what's going on in Israel and Gaza right now is 184 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, on the front page every day, and people 185 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: are doing it again. People are blaming Jews in America, 186 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: Jews all over the world with what the Israeli government 187 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: is doing right now to the Palestinians. 188 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very similar dynamic. If Rodal was alive today, 189 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: he would be doing the same thing. He'd be blurring 190 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: these lines between actions committed by an Israeli government and 191 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: a specific place in time for specific people with all 192 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 3: Jews around the world, rather than treating everybody as individuals 193 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 3: and judging them based on those characteristics. It's disheartening and 194 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: obviously it's wrong, but it's just something that's always been 195 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: with us as human beings. It's a sort of a 196 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 3: shortcut we use for thinking about minority groups that we 197 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 3: don't know well. Rather than trying to get to know 198 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 3: them and to understand them in their complexity and diversity, 199 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: we often try to reduce them to stereotypes, and in 200 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 3: some cases that means negative stereotypes or the worst thing 201 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: that anyone has ever said or done in that group. 202 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: There is a parallel to this, because it's a very 203 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: old thing. Ever since Israel has existed, there have been 204 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: people who have been angry about this or that Israeli 205 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 3: policies that have taken that out on proximate Jews. And 206 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 3: before Israel existed, whatever Jews in the Middle East did 207 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 3: was also taken out on any nearby approximate Jews, no 208 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: matter what connection they had to what happened in that place. 209 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: Dahl also makes reference to quote those powerful American Jewish bankers, 210 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: any asserts that the United States government is quote a 211 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: literally dominated by the great Jewish financial institutions over there. 212 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about those anti Semitic trips. 213 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: Sure. 214 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: There are two kinds of anti semitism, generally speaking. One 215 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 3: is the personal prejudice. This is the kind of bigotry 216 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 3: that most of us are familiar with, which is, I 217 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: don't like that person because they're different, they're too Jewish, 218 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 3: they're too Muslim, they're too black. And that's a social 219 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: prejudice and it's very harmful to the people targeted by it. 220 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 3: There's also a different kind of antisemitism that's the conspiratorial 221 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: expression of anti semitism, and this one posits that Jews 222 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 3: are a sinister string pulling cabal that is behind all 223 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: the world's social and economic problems. It's a theory about 224 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 3: how the entire world works, and it all traces back 225 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: to Jews. And if you see something going wrong, there's 226 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 3: definitely a Jew behind it, right, you perceive that there's 227 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 3: an invisible hand, it belongs to an invisible Jew, and 228 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 3: so Rodal here is expressing that he did it. That 229 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 3: my understanding is in other contexts as well, not just 230 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 3: saying Jews controlled the banks, not just saying they controlled 231 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: the government. He also said they controlled the media. You know, 232 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: Jews are zero point two percent of the human population, right, 233 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: if you were to think about this logically, even if 234 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 3: they punched one hundred percent above their weight, they would 235 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: zero point four percent of the power. It's just not 236 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: how the world actually works in reality. Of course, Jews 237 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 3: have been persecuted and exterminated for much of their existence 238 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: because they're a tiny group that doesn't really have this 239 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: kind of power influence. And Jews themselves are extremely diverse 240 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: and fractious and disagree with each other, and there are 241 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 3: many different sects and different beliefs, and they'll argue with 242 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: each other. And anyone who's ever spent time in a 243 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: Jewish community or with Jews are around shabatar passover a 244 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 3: table knows right that Jews can't set the therm? Is 245 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 3: that let alone? How do you know, I don't know, 246 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: control Western civilization. But again, this is sort of a 247 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: very long standing stereotypical way of thinking about Jews, and 248 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 3: you know, Dollas reflecting it. In the case of Jewish 249 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: bankers and others controlling the government, you might wonder, how 250 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: did two out of every three European Jews get killed 251 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: on the Holocaust. If this incredible Jewish conspiracy was there 252 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 3: running the show, it seems extremely bad at its job. 253 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 3: And similarly speaking, there's so many when the state of 254 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: Israel was found that in nineteen forty eight, America put 255 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: it under an arms embargo is very strange thing to 256 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 3: do if the Jews control of the government. There's a 257 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 3: lot of examples of this in history. Lots of Jewish 258 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 3: activists did lobby Franklin Dollan or Roosevelt to try to 259 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz, the death camp where 260 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: some many Jews were being killed, and he didn't do it. 261 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 3: Lots of Jewish activists tried to get the United States 262 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: and other countries to lift their immigrant quotas to allow 263 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 3: more Jewish refugees to flee the Holocaust. They didn't do it. 264 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: There are so many examples of this, it's kind of perverse. 265 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: The anti Semitic world view is kind of an inversion 266 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 3: of the reality. It posits that this tiny group of 267 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 3: Jews determines the fate of all the non Jews were 268 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: in fact, logically speaking right, the large non Jewish majority 269 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: of the world desides what the world is going to 270 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 3: be like for a lot of different minorities, not just Jews. 271 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: Here's another one, and this is when I'm certainly less 272 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 1: familiar with than the other troops. Talking about Jewish victims 273 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: of the Holocaust, Dahl said, quote, if you and I 274 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: were in a line moving towards what we knew were 275 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: gas chambers, I'd rather have a go at taking one 276 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: of the guards with me. But they, meaning the Jews, 277 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: were always submissive. What is that about? 278 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: So this is more complicated than simply some of antisemitic idea. 279 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: It's actually a critique that many people have leveled against 280 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: Jewish victims of the Hana Claust, which is a hard 281 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 3: thing to do, to critique victims of the Holocaust, but 282 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 3: it's been done. And some of those people who leveled 283 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: that critique, ironically, were people that Dahl hated. Scientists, some 284 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: Zionists said that the problem of the Jews of Europe 285 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 3: is that they didn't defend themselves and that they weren't 286 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: strong enough, and so that they need a state and 287 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: an army so things like this can never happen again. 288 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: And the irony is that road Dall was criticizing these 289 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 3: Jewish victims of the Holo claust in the same way 290 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 3: as some of the founders of the State of Israel 291 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 3: criticized their Jewish warbears, and yet he doesn't support anything 292 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: that Israel does militarily. And Dahl says that Jews were 293 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 3: too weak and pathetic and they went like lambs to 294 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: their slaughter and they didn't fight back. But then when 295 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: Jews go along and say, you know what, we're going 296 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: to found a state and have an army, and then 297 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: we're going to fight back when we perceive ourselves to 298 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 3: be threatened, well then he says they're incredibly evil, bloodthirsty 299 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: and militaristic heads world. Dall wins tails the Jews lose. 300 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: And this is a very common way that bigots relate 301 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: to the minorities they don't like. Basically, there's nothing they 302 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: can do that is right, and they're attacked for absolutely 303 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: contradictory things. No matter what they do and no matter 304 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: how they change, they're always subject to the same prejudice, 305 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: because where prejudice comes from prejudging, you've already prejudged the community, 306 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: and then you come up and backfill the justifications afterwards. 307 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: To go back to this specific instance, for just a Yeacond, 308 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: just because it's really something I don't know about. There's 309 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: an idea among people that the Jews during the Holocaust 310 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: should have wrestled their Nazi guards to the ground. More, 311 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: they should have gotten together and wrestled them. What is it? 312 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, so I think so exactly So this is 313 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: good because you give me a chance to say something 314 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 3: I should have said. The outset, which is, I think 315 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: it's an unfair critique, whether leveled by Zionists or level 316 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: by Rod Doll, the anti Zionist. I think the idea 317 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 3: that the Jews could have somehow overturned or bought back 318 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: in any really effective capacity against this Nazi empire is 319 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 3: not a reasonable critique. That being said, the other thing 320 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: to note is that plenty of Jews did. The critique 321 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 3: is wrong because plenty of Jews did attempt to file back. 322 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: The reason we know it wouldn't work is because they 323 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: failed or they weren't successful in saving so many of 324 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: the Jews. You have the War Sot Ghetto Uprising, perhaps 325 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: the most famous example of resistance to the Nazis, but 326 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: it did ultimately fail. You similarly had plenty of Jews 327 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 3: who joined the various resistance movements in different European countries 328 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 3: against the Nazis and helped fight back and also helped 329 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: spirit Jews and others away to safety. All of these 330 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: things actually did happen, and they did make a difference, 331 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: but they weren't the same thing as defeating the Nazis. 332 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: It wasn't something that the Jews, in their tiny numerical 333 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: rounding era in the human population ever could have possibly done. 334 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: So it's good that you circled back because I do 335 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: think you actually kind of at the foreground by saying 336 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: I think personally right, the critique is wrong, it's historically wrong, 337 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: and it's morally inadequate. At the same time, it is 338 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 3: very revealing about Doll that he can make this critique 339 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: and that at the same time attack Jews for being, 340 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: you know, so pathetic and so inept and so weak, 341 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 3: and then when they act strong and they're militaristic, then 342 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 3: they're evil for being bloodthirsty and villainous. Did he ever 343 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 3: spell out what he actually thinks Jews were allowed to 344 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: do and what they should be or you know, is 345 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 3: it no matter what they do, they can ever please Rodal. 346 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: That was Iier Rosenberg, staff writer at The Atlantic and 347 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: author of the newsletter Deep Stuttle. I also want to 348 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: mention that while Dahl died without apologizing for his antisemitic comments, 349 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: years after his death, the Doll family did issue a 350 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: formal apology. It was around the same time that Netflix 351 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: purchased his whole catalog. Here's the statement in its entirety, 352 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: which you can also see at rolldall dot com slash apology. 353 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: The Doll Family and the Roll Doll Story Company deeply 354 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: apologized for the lasting and understandable hurt caused by Roll 355 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: Dall's antisemitic statements. Those prejudice remarks are incomprehensible to us 356 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: and stand in mark contrast to the man we knew 357 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: and to the values at the heart of Rolldahl's stories, 358 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: which have positively impacted young people for generations. We hope that, 359 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: just as he did at his best, at his absolute worst, 360 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: role Dahal can help remind us of the lasting impact 361 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,239 Speaker 1: of words. So what are we supposed to do about this? 362 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: Do we accept that apology from his family? Do we 363 00:17:58,440 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: chalk it all up to it being a different area, 364 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: or do we stop reading Doll, stop giving his books 365 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: to our children. One thing that makes it especially complicated 366 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: for me is that Doll's personal prejudices didn't really make 367 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: it into his books as far as I can tell. 368 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: Some critics say they see antisemitic tropes in The Wishes. 369 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: It's possible, but I don't know if I agree. And 370 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: if we can't definitively locate those problematic views in his 371 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: writing and he's no longer profiting off the sales of 372 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: his books, does it still make sense to stop reading them. 373 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by this question. I'm someone who constantly does 374 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: the mental gymnastics that's required of all of us when 375 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: we consume art from previous generations. I'll just say it, 376 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: all right, some of my favorite writers and favorite filmmakers 377 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: have done awful things. I don't want to have them 378 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: over for dinner. But I still read the novels, still 379 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: worship the movies. And of course it's not always even 380 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: previous generations. The writer Alice Monroe, who died not long ago, 381 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: was revealed to have stayed with her second husband after 382 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: learning that he'd sexually abused her daughter With Roald Dahl, 383 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: I think the issue was even more complicated by the 384 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: fact that we encourage our kids to consume him. I 385 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: would never allow a babysitter with clear, open prejudices to 386 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: be around my kids in real life. Why should authors 387 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: and filmmakers be any different. Maybe because we think we 388 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: have more control over how they're presented to the kids, 389 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: Like we can offer a warning and we know it's 390 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: in there and what's not in there. We know nothing 391 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: crazy is going to be said off the cuff, the 392 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: way it might be if a bigoted old grandmother or 393 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: somebody was left alone with them. Also, forcibly taking away 394 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: books and movies feels like a slippery slope. It feels 395 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: a little bit like censorship, and I hate the idea 396 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: of that. I firmly believe that experiencing art is essential 397 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: to being human, and that art has the capacity to 398 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: do great things, even if it's created by crappy people. 399 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: And I'm absolutely including children's books in that definition of art. 400 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: All kinds of art can affect positive change, often even 401 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: more than protest movements or marches or elections can. Just 402 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: look at how Americans started becoming more tolerant of gay 403 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: families thanks to a silly Network sitcom, Will and Grace 404 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: for your information, Will Walter was the love of my life. 405 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: You said that about each Backstreet Boy at one time 406 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: or another. I also totally buy the argument that America 407 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: was only able to finally elect a black president because 408 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: they saw a prosperous, lovable, familiar black family on TV 409 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: every week in the nineteen eighties, namely the Cosbys. 410 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 3: It's good great Nessinaraty gave us some fascinating stuff. 411 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, we can be pretty fascinating at times. We're on 412 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: away to theasm. Now are you going inside? Yeah? 413 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 3: Well, I would just like to say that the condition 414 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 3: of certain rooms in this house do not necessarily reflect 415 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: the views of management. 416 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: Thank you, and yes, the idea that Cosby is responsible 417 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: for anything good at this point is hard to believe, 418 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: But of course there are tons of other examples of 419 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: popular art creating positive change in the world. I was 420 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: commissioned by A and E a few years ago to 421 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: rate a four part limited TV series about how Breakfast 422 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: at Tiffany's jumpstart the feminist movement an Tiffany's manage that 423 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: really positive outcome, while also containing one of cinema's most 424 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: egregious examples of Antiesian stereotyping, namely Mickey Rooney's performance as 425 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: Holly's upstairs neighbor. The racism in Tiffany Is is so egregious 426 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: that it feels like you can use it as a 427 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: teaching moment if you watch it with your kids. The 428 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: much scarier thing to me is when the bigotry is 429 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: more subtle, which brings us back to dull. I can't 430 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: help thinking about it. Very scary, maybe very pertinent metaphor 431 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: suggested by Dall himself in maybe his greatest book, In 432 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: The BFG, he writes that his hero has the ability 433 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: to influence children's thoughts by delivering specific dreams to them 434 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: while they sleep. In the story, it's an act of 435 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: kindness by a sweet, loving creature. But what if the 436 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: guy delivering those dreams and influencing children's thoughts wasn't so 437 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: sweet and wasn't so loving? What then, to get a 438 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: better understanding of this really important issue, I want to 439 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: talk to a few people, people who are really thoughtful 440 00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: about this stuff. 441 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 4: I did read him growing up, and I enjoyed his books. 442 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: That's the voice of a great rock Sane Gay. She's 443 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: a best selling writer and critic. She's written novels, short stories, 444 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: and even a Marvel comic. Your smartest, most engaged friend, 445 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: has definitely forwarded you one of her essays at some point. 446 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk to Roxane about all of this. 447 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: She has really strong, clear feelings on the subject. What 448 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about is, you know, 449 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: Dahl also said some very antisemitic things, and I struggle 450 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: with whether or not I can read his work, and 451 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: sort of even more importantly for me, I guess can 452 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: I give his books to my little kids to read? 453 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: Which leads to kind of a larger question about whether 454 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: we can ever separate an artist's private beliefs from their 455 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: public art. So I think you've written really wisely about 456 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: this topic, and I was hoping you could just talk 457 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: a little bit about your own experiences grappling with that question. 458 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, it's a question I think about quite 459 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: a lot, and certainly as a feminist, it's a question 460 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 4: I've asked about a lot, and I, for one, don't 461 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 4: believe you can separate the art from the artist, nor 462 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 4: do I think you should. I think that we are 463 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 4: who we are and that influences the art that we 464 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 4: put into the world in some way. 465 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: Now, Roald Dahl. 466 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 4: Wrote some amazing books like James and the Giant Peach 467 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 4: Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. He's a consummate storyteller, and 468 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 4: certainly generations of children have fallen in love with his work. 469 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 4: So the legacy is there, But there's also the legacy 470 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 4: of virulent anti Semitism. And the reality is that there 471 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 4: are plenty of children's authors out there who have written 472 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 4: very good books who also are not anti Semites. And 473 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 4: so when people sort of wring their hands about this, 474 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 4: I get a little frustrated because this is not the 475 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 4: only game in town, And what really people want is 476 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 4: like a morality hall pass, because oh, he's a genius, 477 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 4: like so are a lots of other people, and so like, 478 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 4: read what you want, truly enjoy what you want, but 479 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 4: accept responsibility for the fact that you are willing to 480 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 4: overlook some truly bad behavior for your enjoyment or for 481 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 4: someone else's enjoyment. 482 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. When Nate Parker's Birth 483 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: of a Nation was going to be released in twenty sixteen, 484 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: you wrote a really great piece of The New York 485 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: Times about just what we're talking about, not being able 486 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: to separate past accusations against Parker for sexual assault from 487 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: his movie. Reading the piece, I mean, tell me if 488 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but it felt a little bit like one 489 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: of the things that troubled you most about that situation 490 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: was how he handled it. He sort of made the 491 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: apology all about himself. With Roald Dahl, it's tricky, right 492 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: because he's not around to defend himself anymore or apologize 493 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: for that matter. And I'm not saying he would apologize. 494 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: In fact, he probably wouldn't. But who knows does that 495 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: play in for you in terms of long dead artists, 496 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: Like do you have trouble reading a ground Poe knowing 497 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: that he married his thirteen year old cousin, or Ts 498 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: Eliott or Norman Mahler or more recently Alice. What does 499 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: it do for you when it's sort of someone who 500 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: is not around to defend themselves or not defend themselves. 501 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 4: I mean, that doesn't even factor for me. I think 502 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 4: that it would be great if these people could apologize, 503 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 4: but I doubt that most of them would be apologetic, 504 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 4: because most of them would not think that they had 505 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 4: done anything wrong, or they would be like, yeah, I 506 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 4: said it, and I believe it, and so what It 507 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 4: just doesn't even factor. And I have no problem not 508 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 4: reading these people. I just don't because there's so much 509 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 4: amazing literature out there. And I know, for example, a 510 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 4: lot of people feel a true sense of loss over 511 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 4: Alice Munroe. But every time I think about, oh, you know, 512 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 4: her incredible short stories, I have far more empathy for 513 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 4: her daughter, who she was willing to sacrifice because of 514 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 4: her own weakness. I'm a human being. I can understand 515 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 4: sort of that she you know, why she made that 516 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 4: choice of choosing her husband despite the harm that he 517 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 4: was doing to her child. But it's not okay, And 518 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 4: I'm not speaking for anyone else. I'm only making these 519 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 4: decisions for me. And you know, a lot of times 520 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 4: people really overestimate the power of writers in terms of like, oh, 521 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 4: what do you mean, I can't enjoy this thing? I 522 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 4: want to enjoy, Like do what you want. But what 523 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 4: you want is for me to say it's fine, And 524 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 4: I can't say that because I don't think it is. 525 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 4: But I also, who cares what I think? What do 526 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 4: you think? So I don't struggle with these things in 527 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 4: that I just tend to value the dignity and the 528 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 4: lives of these people's victims far more than the people 529 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 4: who have made such egregious mistakes themselves, and the counter 530 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 4: argument often is that we're all human and we all 531 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 4: make mistakes, and that is absolutely true. We are all flawed, 532 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 4: and I include myself in that. But I also know 533 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 4: that I'm never going to be an anti semi. I'm 534 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 4: never going to be transphobic. I know who I am. 535 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 4: There are some mistakes most of us don't make. I'm 536 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 4: never going to commit sexual violence. So I think that 537 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 4: we have to also remember that these are things are 538 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 4: a matter of scale, and that we can't compare our 539 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 4: normal human foibles and flaws with people who are criminals 540 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 4: and bigots. 541 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: I think that makes a ton of sense. When I 542 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: buy a Mel Gibson movie, or rent a Roman Planski movie, 543 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: or buy a Kanye West song, I feel like I'm 544 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: giving them money, right, And that bothers me. It sounds 545 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: like for you, it's not as much about whether or 546 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: not we're sort of enriching them or helping them. It's 547 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: more just you have trouble enjoying it, right, Is that right? 548 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 4: I have trouble looking past, you know, Like, for example, 549 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 4: I used to really enjoy Kanye West's music before we 550 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 4: found out who Kanye really is. I just can't enjoy 551 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 4: it anymore, because every time I start to be like, oh, yes, 552 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 4: listen to that beat drop because he is brilliant, and 553 00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 4: I acknowledge that he's also truly a horrible person. So 554 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 4: I just can't. And that's just the way I'm made up. 555 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 4: I don't even think about the enrichment thing. I think 556 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: people really overvalue their dollars. Like Kanye Rich is already 557 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 4: wealthy by his music. Down't buy his music. It's not 558 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 4: really changing his bottom line. I mean, I don't think 559 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 4: we should consume his music. I don't think we should 560 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 4: enrich him or fatten his coffers. But I do think 561 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 4: that for me, it's just something I can't do, and 562 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 4: I don't not even can't. I of course I could, 563 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 4: I don't want to. I can no longer enjoy The 564 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: Cosby Show. And I loved that show. I loved it 565 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: because we weren't really allowed to watch TV growing up, 566 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 4: and that was one of two things we were allowed 567 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 4: to watch, was that in Little House on the Prairie. 568 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 4: You know, it's sad and I definitely lament, you know 569 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 4: the loss. 570 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: Do you think a writer's personal views always, or their 571 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: prejudices or their outlooks or their viewpoints always find a 572 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: way into the work, and if they don't, does that 573 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: change the calculus at all. 574 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 4: I don't think that a writer's views always infuse themselves 575 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 4: into the work. I do think that there are some 576 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 4: writers and other artists who are very capable of hiding 577 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 4: their true selves. But it's rare. It's rare. I do 578 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 4: actually think that's what makes Rodall such a tough one. 579 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 4: For the most part, you really would not know his 580 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 4: beliefs if you didn't know about them, if you didn't 581 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 4: go and look up information about the artists. Certainly, it's 582 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 4: not something I ever knew about until recently, like in 583 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 4: the past decade. It's challenging, and I think that what 584 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 4: a lot of people need to believe is that genius 585 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 4: and genius art matters more than the crimes of the 586 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 4: genius artists and the toxic beliefs of the genius artist. 587 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 4: We hear that quite a lot with Woody Allen, with 588 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 4: Roman Polanski, especially with like the whole slew of anti Semites, 589 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,239 Speaker 4: and I firmly understand that for some people that is 590 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 4: just the case, and it is, you know, I just disagree. 591 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 4: I think that you can't separate it Now when people 592 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 4: just say, like, yes, he's an anti semi and he 593 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 4: made amazing work, that's more honest that you acknowledge it 594 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 4: and you're going to consume the work regardless because you 595 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 4: feel like it offers more than the damage done by 596 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 4: whatever the toxicity or the crime is. And I think 597 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 4: that more people believe that than not. Unfortunately, but I'm 598 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 4: sure you're talking to Claire Debtorer. 599 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: Yeah we are, actually, Yeah. 600 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 4: She wrote an amazing book about this that I thought 601 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 4: was really really well done, where she grapples with these questions, 602 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 4: and when people are at least willing to grapple with 603 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 4: the questions, I find that more interesting than actually sitting 604 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 4: around worrying about these horrible people, because again, that's more 605 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 4: honest that yes, some people are ambivalent about this, or 606 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 4: some people really struggle, some people don't know how to 607 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 4: sacrifice these works of art for the sake of the 608 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 4: greater good. And you know, I do think it's at 609 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 4: least important to have those conversations. And a book like Monsters, 610 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 4: which Claire Debtor wrote, was I think our interesting entrance 611 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 4: into the dialogue about this. 612 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: A huge thanks to Roxanne, and I totally agree with 613 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: what she said at the end there about who to 614 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: speak to next? First thing, if you wouldn't mind introduce yourself. 615 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 4: I'm Claire Leader. I'm the author of Monsters of Fans Dilemma. 616 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: Here my conversation with Claire in our next episode. She 617 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: feels really differently than Roxanne about all this. We'll also 618 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: get into the nitty gritty of an explosive controversy regarding 619 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: Doll's work thirty two years after his death that seemed 620 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: to get the entire world talking about him again. The 621 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: Secret World of Roald Dahn is produced by Imagine Audio 622 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: and Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. Created and written by 623 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: me Aaron tracyduced by Matt Schrader, post production by wind 624 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: Hill Studios, with editing, scoring, and sound design by Mark 625 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: Henry Phillips. Editing by Ryan Seaton, Music by a PM. 626 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: Executive producers Nathan Cloke, Karl Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, 627 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: and Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark 628 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: Henry Phillips and Eleven Laps. If you enjoyed this episode, 629 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: be sure to rate and review The Secret World of 630 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: Roll Doll on Apple Podcasts or Wherever you get your podcasts. 631 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: Copyright twenty twenty six. Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia and Parallax