Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three, sixteen, episode
Speaker 1: two of.
Speaker 2: Daly's Gay Yay.
Speaker 1: Production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take
Speaker 1: a deep dive into America's share consciousness. And it's Tuesday,
Speaker 1: December fifth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: You know what that is. Of course I know what
Speaker 2: that is, Miles, Oh, because it is real sneaky. I
Speaker 2: didn't want to sneak up on you. Because it's International
Speaker 2: Ninja Day, that's right. I'm like, that did not come
Speaker 2: from Japan, but shout out to all the people who
Speaker 2: buy those graphic shirts out a alkiosk who when you google.
Speaker 1: When you google International Ninja Day, first of all, it
Speaker 1: tells you what day, what day it is. I was
Speaker 1: assuming this was one where it's like, well, they're like
Speaker 1: three different International Ninja Days. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that you can do how to celebrate train in the
Speaker 1: art of ninjitsu.
Speaker 2: Oh, but also watch a ninja movie.
Speaker 1: And one of the ninja movies they recommend is Teenage
Speaker 1: Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Speaker 2: So very very yes, very very authentic, culturally relive event.
Speaker 2: I love that kind of visibility for all of us. Also,
Speaker 2: it's Bathtub Party Day that I think that's just like
Speaker 2: for you know, your babies, you know, bathe them in
Speaker 2: the bathtub and have a little bit of a party.
Speaker 2: It's also World Trick Shot Day. It's National Repeal Day,
Speaker 2: meaning the repeal of prohibition, World Soil Day, shout out
Speaker 2: to soil. And also it's Crampus knocked. Yeah, that's when
Speaker 2: crampis the evil evil Santa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is
Speaker 2: when he I guess this is when he.
Speaker 1: Punishes the children I get anytime knocked comes up, I'm just.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's not a good history. Wait, wait, we're
Speaker 2: going that. We're going that. Okay, it's a made up
Speaker 2: evil Santa.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And also it's I don't know what this is, but
Speaker 2: National Soccer tort Day. It's like a cake that looks
Speaker 2: like a chocolate cake, but I don't know what that
Speaker 2: is with regards to the bathtub party. One time.
Speaker 1: In our party home, tiny home in Santa Monica, and
Speaker 1: we had somebody come out and look at it, and
Speaker 1: I think he thought we were like a landlord or
Speaker 1: like somebody who was like selling it. He didn't think
Speaker 1: we were the people who lived there. And he came
Speaker 1: to me and took me aside and was like, look, man,
Speaker 1: I don't know what these people have been doing, but
Speaker 1: I think they've been having whoopye parties in the bathroom.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm that's me and that is correct.
Speaker 1: I don't know what woopy parties are, not just.
Speaker 2: I love the idea of what whoopye parties? How woo
Speaker 2: a character Griffin?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but so that just means like swingers? Is that
Speaker 1: what that means? Like you sex parties in the or
Speaker 1: bathroom or a tiny, tiny bathroom.
Speaker 2: Or are you making, like the confectionery Delight, a whoopee pie?
Speaker 2: And they got a whole factory line you're making whoopee pies?
Speaker 2: You know it's yeah, they're doing it here.
Speaker 1: But it turned out that we just didn't have a
Speaker 1: proper seal over the toilet that his Horny Lonely the
Speaker 1: subjects of today's episode Lonely Imagination went immediately to just
Speaker 1: like giant bathroom orgies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's the same way we were talking the
Speaker 2: other day about how when people were first discovering dinosaur bones,
Speaker 2: the guy was just like, yeah, that's a scrotum, not
Speaker 2: a bone of a gigantic dinosaur.
Speaker 1: A scrotum of a giant human like he had to
Speaker 1: come up with a whole new type of human that
Speaker 1: He's like, Yeah, what you're looking at there is the
Speaker 1: scrotum of a giant. And I'm a doctor and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh boys, a physician. Please let us get to the
Speaker 1: next entry. Anyways, my name's Jack O'Brien aka Hot Miles
Speaker 1: Jacking in the City Zeidema. Guy's getting dirt and gritty.
Speaker 1: That is courtesy of Andrew at Bohemian Rahap City on
Speaker 1: the Discord City spelled like city Bank because he is
Speaker 1: officially sponsored by them. When I'm thrilled to be joined
Speaker 1: as always by my co host mister.
Speaker 2: Miles Greg Miles Gray Kay, just the man whose body
Speaker 2: still continues to recover from a gravy based fantasy. Like
Speaker 2: I said, I am had so much gravy from Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2: I still have gravy and I will not throw it away.
Speaker 2: I will not throw it away. I will use it
Speaker 2: however I want to. I'll put it on a hot dog.
Speaker 2: I don't care well gravy. Unfortunately, gravy doesn't go bad.
Speaker 2: Has never gone bad in my professional opinion, because I've
Speaker 2: also never it's never lasted very long. No, I'm always
Speaker 2: I'm always at the man. We already were already out
Speaker 2: of gravy.
Speaker 1: And the end of that equation exactly too quick, exactly Well, Miles,
Speaker 1: we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat
Speaker 1: by the author of the new book The Power of
Speaker 1: Conscious Connection, a Harvard fellow who holds a Masters in
Speaker 1: Education and Counseling Psychology. Welcome to the show, Talia full.
Speaker 2: Well, it's going on. How are you well?
Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm thinking about Raphael from the Teenage Mutan
Speaker 3: Ninja Turtles because every time I hear about that, I
Speaker 3: have this desire for pizza. Yeah, and I'm not eating
Speaker 3: it anymore, so thanks, thanks for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And every time I hear about gravy, I have
Speaker 1: the I want to get some pizza.
Speaker 2: Oh, I should try that. This is the thing. When
Speaker 2: you have this much gravy, you can experiment. I'll put
Speaker 2: it on vanilla ice cream. I have not tried that
Speaker 2: and pretend it's like caramel sauce. I might try that.
Speaker 2: I have enough time to do that.
Speaker 1: Last week you were talking about matted potato pancakes and
Speaker 1: using the gravy as syrup.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and pretty good, I mean, yeah, however you
Speaker 2: want to look at it.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm going to chime in here as a
Speaker 3: little bit of a guru already, is if you have
Speaker 3: too much gravy, this is a time in life we
Speaker 3: need to let it go. I don't know, Miles what
Speaker 3: it's going to take for you to change that behavior.
Speaker 3: But sometimes in life, if it's overflowing, you need to
Speaker 3: just let go and surrender.
Speaker 2: To our need for gravy. Yeah right, So.
Speaker 3: Release the need for gravy. Release me for all of
Speaker 3: these extra things.
Speaker 2: What I mean, I'd hate to show you my garage
Speaker 2: because you'll be like, wow, you have a lot of
Speaker 2: paint left over from a different house projects. I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: that's gravy from years past. I will not let them go.
Speaker 1: Why is the part of your face below your nose
Speaker 1: so shiny turkey grease?
Speaker 2: Probably all the rendered fat from the gravy. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know. When you're sure sleeve becomes translucent as
Speaker 2: you with it, yeah, maybe I will. You know what
Speaker 2: it is. I think it's just like a waste thing,
Speaker 2: you know. But the thing is, I'm it's gonna be
Speaker 2: gone within the next thirty six hours. I know this
Speaker 2: this I do know, so I think will be okay,
Speaker 2: or maybe I get ill and then I have to
Speaker 2: stop eating it. We'll see.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, Talia, we're gonna get to know you
Speaker 1: a little bit better in a moment. First, we're telling
Speaker 1: our listeners just what we're talking about today.
Speaker 2: We wanted to have you on.
Speaker 1: Your new book is at least partially about the loneliness epidemic,
Speaker 1: which is something that comes up a lot on this show,
Speaker 1: you know what, whether it be health statistics or just
Speaker 1: how we're feeling generally, or the Surgeon General being like,
Speaker 1: there is a acute crisis, which he has recently kind
Speaker 1: of announced not cute, not a cute crisis, and acute crisis,
Speaker 1: got it intense. It's not one of those adorable crises.
Speaker 1: But so yeah, we're going to get into that and
Speaker 1: just how we're thinking about loneliness in this modern era
Speaker 1: of constant communication. Yeah, and you know, lots of connection
Speaker 1: in quotes, but lots of interpersonal feelings of loneliness. But
Speaker 1: before we get to that bullshit, we do like to
Speaker 1: ask our guest, Holly, what is something from your search
Speaker 1: history that's revealing about who you are?
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to share what I searched this morning.
Speaker 3: I was just looking up I have. I had so
Speaker 3: many family members in my house over the holidays, so
Speaker 3: I was thinking about I'm always thinking about howking up
Speaker 3: my game. And I have this app. It's a money
Speaker 3: app and it just gives you a bunch of random
Speaker 3: money to spend. So I got two hundred K that
Speaker 3: I just supposed to spend randomly. So I'm already out
Speaker 3: of money, so I'm gonna have to wait for the
Speaker 3: next check to come. I spent it like in five minutes.
Speaker 3: Are supposed to take me like a couple of days.
Speaker 2: So that's wait.
Speaker 1: Gives you fake money to spend. Yeah, I give you
Speaker 1: just like this is this is what it would be like.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the concept is that the money keeps coming so
Speaker 3: you never feel lacked.
Speaker 2: Oh, I got it.
Speaker 3: Kind of the gravy keeps coming. The money keeps coming,
Speaker 3: so you can let it go.
Speaker 1: Thank you for putting it in the context for us. Wait,
Speaker 1: do you get it now, Miles? Do you get it?
Speaker 2: Great? Imagine I got it like you just have a
Speaker 2: Spikett in your house. I need to have an abundance
Speaker 2: mentality around my gravy rather than scarcity mentality that I
Speaker 2: currently have. Yeah, what tell you what's something you think
Speaker 2: is overrated?
Speaker 3: So I'm going to get an answer, and if I
Speaker 3: was live, I get tomatoes thrown at me. But this
Speaker 3: is what I want to be overrated. Sugar and like bread,
Speaker 3: I think it's so good and so amazing, but it
Speaker 3: really does not make me happy on so many levels.
Speaker 3: It's it's so fleeting that as you're eating, I'm holding up.
Speaker 1: So let me dip it in my bowl of sugar
Speaker 1: now like you were.
Speaker 3: Saying, Oh my gosh, I'm off sugar and flour my brain.
Speaker 3: I'm kind of sad about this. My brain works so
Speaker 3: much better, I'm so much more productive, I have so
Speaker 3: much more energy. It's like all those things. But I
Speaker 3: have this little voice in my head that's just like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, have a good time, just have a little bit.
Speaker 3: And it's every time, I just don't feel that great after.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, you know, Robin Sharma says he's
Speaker 3: a leadership guy, says, you know everything in moderation, including moderation,
Speaker 3: But some things I've just had to let go. One
Speaker 3: of them's gravy, the other is sugar and flour.
Speaker 2: O yeah. See, that's all in gravy. That's my problem,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, It's all there and I
Speaker 2: can't turn my back. Oh no, you're gravy is very sugary.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's most people call it with some turkey
Speaker 2: bones in it. But I'm telling you, I call it gravy. Baby. Wait, Jack,
Speaker 2: you don't feel I know you were you? What's your
Speaker 2: you get? You get? You eat a lot of bread,
Speaker 2: and you there's your digestive system because I know, yeah,
Speaker 2: you have definitely digestive issues when it comes to foods
Speaker 2: like that. But I wasn't about you.
Speaker 1: So I started doing the intermittent fasting, like after hearing
Speaker 1: Iffy widy Way, a friend of the show, talk about
Speaker 1: it for five years. I was eventually like maybe and
Speaker 1: also like I I talked to the thing that finally
Speaker 1: made it make sense to me is they were like, look,
Speaker 1: you don't have to like focus on what you eat
Speaker 1: if you just like fought like stick to these rules
Speaker 1: that were like, you know, not not every day, but
Speaker 1: like it's a sad number of days. And I've found
Speaker 1: that to be true that like so much of like
Speaker 1: how I feel and how much energy I have is
Speaker 1: like really based on how well I'm eating and like
Speaker 1: how much I'm eating and exactly what Tali said, like
Speaker 1: I hate that, like.
Speaker 2: It makes me so mad.
Speaker 1: And then like over Thanksgiving holiday, I was like eating
Speaker 1: pie after meals for like three straight meals and I
Speaker 1: just felt like shit like that there's just too much
Speaker 1: sugar hitting hitting my system all at once and I
Speaker 1: swear it off. And then there's half a p COMPI
Speaker 1: in my kitchen and I can't style myself. So yeah,
Speaker 1: this this resonates such I will choose to uh believe
Speaker 1: this after the COMPI is gone.
Speaker 2: Yeah right right, Like now, let's get to business.
Speaker 1: Kirkland signature by the way, Kirkland signature of a Compie.
Speaker 2: Kig. Yeah, Costco.
Speaker 1: We did a lot of Thanksgiving shopping at Costco.
Speaker 2: Saving what uh, what's something you think is underrated?
Speaker 3: I think what's underrated is what people are able to
Speaker 3: do when they listen to each other and they connect
Speaker 3: or just connections. Of course, that's my book, so I'm
Speaker 3: giving you that answer. But it's true, Like I really
Speaker 3: do feel that we live in a society where it's
Speaker 3: all about the individual and it's all about what we're doing.
Speaker 3: But I think we underrate and even undervalue when people collaborate.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the you know, the Miles and
Speaker 3: Jack collaboration. It's it's just the beauty of it when
Speaker 3: it comes together. Something just is it right? With just
Speaker 3: the SOULO? You gotta see what magic can happen together?
Speaker 2: So what, Yeah, what do you think is like a
Speaker 2: way people don't? I mean, like I totally get that,
Speaker 2: especially when you know you're pleasantly surprised when you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: that thing I worked on that was actually very very
Speaker 2: enjoyable and actually ended up rendering something that was like
Speaker 2: a good product or whatever it was. But like, what
Speaker 2: do you you know, where are we missing that? Especially
Speaker 2: you think in our day to day like in terms
Speaker 2: of that collaboration, because I get obviously doing a show
Speaker 2: is one way, and maybe when you're at work is another.
Speaker 2: But are there other Because I think when we look
Speaker 2: at collaboration we kind of most of the time we're
Speaker 2: thinking of it in this very sort of like revenue
Speaker 2: generating space, But like, how are we missing that too?
Speaker 2: Like you know in our personal lives, you think.
Speaker 3: Well, the more self centered we are, the more we
Speaker 3: can become mentally unwell because we're stuck in our brains.
Speaker 3: We've got all these thoughts going on in our brains
Speaker 3: and we think that they're the only thoughts. We think
Speaker 3: that they're right. We're creating things, and we think our
Speaker 3: ideas are the best. So when you get kind of
Speaker 3: stuck in your head, it creates almost this you know,
Speaker 3: you don't feel well and you don't feel connected and
Speaker 3: use the value of somebody being able to help you
Speaker 3: think about something or do something differently. It's really the
Speaker 3: core of all of our problems. A lot of people,
Speaker 3: they have lots of challenges. All of us have problems,
Speaker 3: and if we wanted to solve the problem, many of
Speaker 3: us are not willing to be open to get help,
Speaker 3: to listen to somebody else, to have that level of flexibility,
Speaker 3: and so it really ruins a lot of stuff, this
Speaker 3: kind of bullheadedness. I know what to do. I need
Speaker 3: to get up and be on my own and go
Speaker 3: at it alone. And then we start feeling sad and
Speaker 3: we start feeling lonely, and then we start being fake
Speaker 3: because you know, get that imposter syndrome where you're walking
Speaker 3: around something like they're so yeah, you're just so great
Speaker 3: and you're so good and then you connect with people
Speaker 3: and you bring your your shadow self or you bring
Speaker 3: kind of the veil, and everything in life just starts
Speaker 3: getting really squirrely.
Speaker 2: Right, I think, Yeah, it's like the part I think
Speaker 2: especially maybe it's probably American culture, especially American like male
Speaker 2: culture is very much rooted in like not allowing people
Speaker 2: to see you struggle at all. Yes, So because of that,
Speaker 2: you would go into things like I don't need to
Speaker 2: know how to do this thing I don't know how
Speaker 2: to do because I'm not gonna ask for help, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. I can definitely see how that
Speaker 2: happens a lot personally for me because I'm like, I'm
Speaker 2: struggling perfectionist, and so the worst thing for a perfectionist
Speaker 2: is like having people see you struggle.
Speaker 3: So I totally feel that, Yeah, I'm a recovering perfection
Speaker 3: Oh good good. I think when we ask people for help,
Speaker 3: there's this guy there's this kind of feeling that that
Speaker 3: makes them superior in some way, right, So like if
Speaker 3: somebody else can figure out something in your life that
Speaker 3: you can't, does that make them superior?
Speaker 2: So? Right?
Speaker 3: It also depends on who you go to for help
Speaker 3: is really important, so.
Speaker 2: Right, rather than someone who's like, oh, Talia, I guess
Speaker 2: you needed help again. Did you well allow me to
Speaker 2: help you one more time than some.
Speaker 1: Well well well looking crawling back is what I imagine my
Speaker 1: therapist saying before every one of our obsessions.
Speaker 2: Oh so you didn't figure it out? Wow?
Speaker 1: Did you listen to me last week?
Speaker 3: Or watch out for people that use the word just
Speaker 3: the word justice if they say, oh, you have to
Speaker 3: do it, you just have to do this, you just
Speaker 3: have to do that. So what it is is they're
Speaker 3: they're trying to act like, you know, it's it's so easy,
Speaker 3: and sometimes that word it's unintentional if you're if you're
Speaker 3: listening and you use that word, don't worry. But it's
Speaker 3: one of those things where if you say, just do this,
Speaker 3: it's it's life can be hard and it seems simple,
Speaker 3: but there's some stuff it takes a while for us
Speaker 3: to change and to kind of get going.
Speaker 1: So for sure, Yeah, Another thing that like we talk
Speaker 1: about loosely on the show is that I think is
Speaker 1: connected with this, is that a lot of the systems
Speaker 1: and like our relationship to money and are like how
Speaker 1: we think about work, Like I think a lot of
Speaker 1: it feels very similar to addiction and like replacing human
Speaker 1: like emotions or like narcissists are our presidents, and you know,
Speaker 1: our celebrities in a lot of cases, and our culture
Speaker 1: like holds them up on a pedestal. And I think
Speaker 1: we're like shaping a lot of the systems that determine
Speaker 1: our day to day lives in the image of narcissism.
Speaker 1: And I think that like creates these like addictive cycles.
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of the stuff that we
Speaker 1: talk about, like people in like addiction recovery, you talk
Speaker 1: about how connection is the opposite of addiction. So I
Speaker 1: think there's like a lot of systemic things that are
Speaker 1: like pushing us in these directions towards like isolation, like
Speaker 1: towards these values that make it seem like, well, the
Speaker 1: real thing that you have to focus on, the thing
Speaker 1: that matters, The thing that is like adult and real
Speaker 1: is just like making money and finding ways to like
Speaker 1: work within this system and not valuing your connections with
Speaker 1: other people. Like the connections with other people more and
Speaker 1: more in our economy, especially in the tech world, are
Speaker 1: like described as friction. Like you want to cut down
Speaker 1: on the friction of like human interaction to get to
Speaker 1: like these frictionless systems of like perfect capitalism, or like
Speaker 1: make this purchase, turn it around quickly, don't have to
Speaker 1: see anybody. You click the button and then it appears
Speaker 1: on your front porch a couple of weeks later, a
Speaker 1: couple hours later in some cases. So it's interesting. I
Speaker 1: think one thing that's helpful is to be gentle with
Speaker 1: ourselves because I think we sometimes hold ourselves up to
Speaker 1: the standard of like, well, this wasn't a problem in
Speaker 1: past generations, and first of all, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of it was a problem. But we are We're also
Speaker 1: really embedded in these systems that are telling us over
Speaker 1: and over that like that we should live and have
Speaker 1: value systems that are are pretty unhealthy and are like
Speaker 1: kind of really pushing us in these directions.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of science behind addiction, and this
Speaker 3: is why connections are very important, because there's a lot
Speaker 3: of details about this life as human beings that we
Speaker 3: may not be fully honoring or accepting. And one of
Speaker 3: those details is that you know, our brain, we get
Speaker 3: this fear and there's so many things going on in
Speaker 3: life that make us scared, and so we use and
Speaker 3: you know, substances, people, social media, all these things to
Speaker 3: get our needs met in some way. So we feel
Speaker 3: bad about something and we use that as an adia.
Speaker 3: So when you're connected with people, this is why the
Speaker 3: twelfth step in addiction therapy is share it with someone else.
Speaker 3: There's actually the oxytocin that you get. There's a there's
Speaker 3: a chemical reaction that happens and brings you back to
Speaker 3: more conscious connection. You can solve a whole bunch of
Speaker 3: problems because addiction, as you were just mentioning, we're addicted
Speaker 3: to all kinds of things. We're addicted to drama, we're
Speaker 3: addicted to experiences, and it can Our brains are not
Speaker 3: it's not select. You just get addicted gravy sugar.
Speaker 2: Let's just focus on the gravy. Okay. I don't want
Speaker 2: to be telling me Jack, I trusted you, and you know, Tali,
Speaker 2: I think you're really cool. But why did y'all? Why
Speaker 2: is this turning to an intervention? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: If you try, just try it first before you can
Speaker 2: fell the power of it.
Speaker 1: And that guy that that cool teenager did come by
Speaker 1: and say you could try it for free this time
Speaker 1: when he gave you the gravy before Thanksgiving exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: He said, bring a friend next time, chump, And I
Speaker 2: was like, what, all right, let's let's take a quick
Speaker 2: break and we're gonna come back and keep talking about this.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: And we're back so at the outset defining the problem,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about what the surgeon general just said. But
Speaker 1: do we all think there's a loneliness epidemic? Like what
Speaker 1: are the signals you see that indicate this is historically abnormal?
Speaker 1: Because the Beatles did write eleanor Rigby in the nineteen
Speaker 1: sixties and.
Speaker 2: They looked at all the lonely people.
Speaker 1: They talked about all the lonely people, so there were
Speaker 1: a lot of lonely people back then. That song is
Speaker 1: always funny to me that like Paul McCartney is just
Speaker 1: like it's like probably hasn't been alone and like since
Speaker 1: he was eight years old. It is just like incredibly
Speaker 1: cool and he's just like looking out bewildered, like David
Speaker 1: Atton Burrow just like, right, what are these lonely people?
Speaker 2: Because it really is like the lyrics, it's not really
Speaker 2: I it's ah, you know, it's ah, look at all
Speaker 2: the lonely people. It's just different than like, I look
Speaker 2: at all the lonely people, be like, ah, look at
Speaker 2: all the lonely people.
Speaker 1: Okay, look at all these lonely people. Anyway, is there
Speaker 1: a chance we just didn't have a lot of mediums
Speaker 1: that gave voice to the lonely before and now we
Speaker 1: have social media and that's that's why we are hearing
Speaker 1: about the loneliness or that we we think this is real, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I think I think historically people were lonely,
Speaker 3: but it was very clear to know if you were lonely.
Speaker 3: It was defined as the absence of people, the absence
Speaker 3: of friends, the absence of family. But you know, back
Speaker 3: in the day, and I'm not going to define what
Speaker 3: time period of that is, we were very We were
Speaker 3: much more interdependent. You know, everybody had to show up
Speaker 3: to work, everybody sort of had to help each other
Speaker 3: out with their family because survival was was literally hinged
Speaker 3: on our interdependence. Now we have created a world where
Speaker 3: we actually can function behind the screen independently. People can
Speaker 3: be you know, without interaction physically with people for months
Speaker 3: at a time. And on top of that, we have
Speaker 3: this ability to I like to call it, there's a
Speaker 3: little bit. I think of a fake epidemic too going on,
Speaker 3: where we have this ability to create our own avatar
Speaker 3: and character that doesn't reflect who we really are. And
Speaker 3: so when we do get around people, because we've already
Speaker 3: put up all of these you know, we're posting things
Speaker 3: on social media where we want people to see us
Speaker 3: in a particular way, so now we don't have outlets
Speaker 3: to be authentic. And then of course there's that thing
Speaker 3: that we all see where if you go to a
Speaker 3: teenage party these days, or even an adult party, they're
Speaker 3: all sitting in a circle, not dancing, not talking to
Speaker 3: each other, and they're literally just taking selfies and posting
Speaker 3: things on Instagram. So you have them spending two hours
Speaker 3: together and no one really spent time together. They were
Speaker 3: still connecting and texting each other right across the room,
Speaker 3: right there lives. So it's hard to kind of identify,
Speaker 3: but we feel it. And I think that's where the
Speaker 3: Surgeon General comes in. And can you believe he said
Speaker 3: that it's I think you can smoking is less impactful
Speaker 3: than the loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 2: All I heard there is that I can start smoking again. Hey,
Speaker 2: the Surgeon General, Hey, if you got some boys, you
Speaker 2: can kick it with light.
Speaker 1: Up, go have a smoke sash with your with your pals.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I mean the Surgeon General released a health
Speaker 1: advisory and it yeah, it was it was like, this
Speaker 1: is a serious smoking His advice is to like get
Speaker 1: back to spending time with people, but like almost.
Speaker 2: Like it's a prescription like that.
Speaker 1: It's like, look, you just have to, like we need
Speaker 1: to like spend an hour a day like with other
Speaker 1: people interacting with them. Which makes sense to me because
Speaker 1: I have this and I want to talk about this
Speaker 1: thing that I think might be more unique to our
Speaker 1: era than I had realized before I start thinking about
Speaker 1: this and reading your book is like the dreads that
Speaker 1: I feel before I spend time with people is weird,
Speaker 1: and it's it's weird, particularly because I'm usually glad to
Speaker 1: have spent the time with people after the fact, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I don't know. And that's another way
Speaker 1: that it feels like we're having to turn this into
Speaker 1: medicine or you just got to spend some fucking time
Speaker 1: with people, man, Like that's whether you want to or not.
Speaker 1: You might not want to at first, like I used
Speaker 1: to really not want to spend time with people unless
Speaker 1: I you know, could be drinking before and during And
Speaker 1: it's taken a lot of like spending time with people,
Speaker 1: like prescriptively spending time with people to get to a
Speaker 1: place where I'm like, no, this is actually no big deal,
Speaker 1: and I always feel better after the fact.
Speaker 3: Well, and we have to think about what's in that medicine.
Speaker 3: So spending time with people, I think what's happening in
Speaker 3: our world is we have to actually relearn how to
Speaker 3: do that in a way that feels different for us
Speaker 3: because the world is different, and so we need new skills.
Speaker 3: What are those skills that we need so that we
Speaker 3: when we are spending time with people, it feels like,
Speaker 3: it feels good, we get the good benefit of living longer,
Speaker 3: and we're not feeling lonely because I think we're in
Speaker 3: the presence of people sometimes. But that dread. A lot
Speaker 3: of it is because the way people communicate, the way
Speaker 3: we listen, the focus that people have. It really is
Speaker 3: not it doesn't feel good spending time with people often right,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of interesting things going on, so you
Speaker 3: don't necessarily have to be with people for hours and hours,
Speaker 3: and you know, it doesn't have to be an all
Speaker 3: day thing. But taking these small, bite sized things where
Speaker 3: it's like, Okay, listen, let's put a timer on, like
Speaker 3: let's hang out for thirty minutes, and let's be a
Speaker 3: little focused and intentional about getting to know each other
Speaker 3: and about understanding what's going on. And I'm saying this
Speaker 3: a little in an academic way. You can definitely make
Speaker 3: it a little less structured. But this idea of let's
Speaker 3: connect and ask each other some questions and you know,
Speaker 3: spend time together, that feels like we actually got to
Speaker 3: know each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I feel like to your point, like about
Speaker 2: the skills and how we need to sort of develop
Speaker 2: them or reclaim them or whatever. It's like with every
Speaker 2: new technological advancement we have, the other side of that
Speaker 2: coin is we are probably going to begin to dull
Speaker 2: or completely lose a skill that we had developed prior
Speaker 2: to this technology. Right. So, like the easy thing is,
Speaker 2: like I was telling Jack earlier, is like map reading,
Speaker 2: you know, like orienting yourself like visually, because we have
Speaker 2: phones that just like turn left, turn left right here
Speaker 2: in like fifty feet just go right or whatever, or
Speaker 2: look at the direction of the arrow. You might not
Speaker 2: even have to know left or right anymore. But like
Speaker 2: and also with our ability to connect so rapidly found
Speaker 2: I found myself in a place too where, like with
Speaker 2: really close friends, I a lot of those relationships don't
Speaker 2: get maintained because in the back of my mind is like, well,
Speaker 2: we're connected through the phone, we're connected through social media,
Speaker 2: we're connected through FaceTime, meaning they can get at me
Speaker 2: if they need something, or I can get at them.
Speaker 2: But I've completely lost the part where I'm actually communicating
Speaker 2: meaningfully or hearing what's going on, because it's almost like
Speaker 2: it's like you just have like as long as there's
Speaker 2: an open line of communication, then that's fine, and then
Speaker 2: I forget. I've lost all these other skills, like being
Speaker 2: present or even interested. Like the other day, I was
Speaker 2: with a couple of friends of mine. We were all
Speaker 2: watching something and to your point, there was a moment
Speaker 2: we were all on our phones, like not just doing
Speaker 2: the thing, like even for decades before. Our friendship has
Speaker 2: been there since childhood, pre phone, where we could we
Speaker 2: could have a just like an amazing time without a
Speaker 2: phone and just talking. And I realized, oh, these are
Speaker 2: skills like I am that are like become big. They're
Speaker 2: starting to dull a bit. And that is also I
Speaker 2: think compounding the feeling of like somewhat isolation or just
Speaker 2: like a disconnection that I feel from time to time.
Speaker 3: So we do something in our family miles called the
Speaker 3: I created at this for we did this over thanks
Speaker 3: give me. So we've got twenty five people and we
Speaker 3: do something called the Family Power Hour. And the Family
Speaker 3: Power Hours I identify somebody power hours. Yeah yeah, yeah, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: not that kind of power. So right, that's not the power.
Speaker 2: You got to bed, all right, you got you got my.
Speaker 3: So Myles and Jack. I think we need to spend
Speaker 3: more time together, because certainly so. But with the Power Hour,
Speaker 3: I choose one person that is you know, I've talked
Speaker 3: to everybody in the family and they don't really talk
Speaker 3: to each other, and they actually give us a lesson,
Speaker 3: like some wisdom and things that they've learned in life.
Speaker 3: And I make all the kids. They all want to
Speaker 3: stay in the basement and be on social media and
Speaker 3: play video games, but they have to just come up
Speaker 3: for Power Hour, and I ask them to fully participate.
Speaker 3: And it's amazing. You always have to yell for them
Speaker 3: and say come up, and it's a real hassle. But
Speaker 3: once we get into it, what's interesting is here is
Speaker 3: I'm an uncle in my family who's a doctor who
Speaker 3: shared he was the power hour, and it was amazing
Speaker 3: to me that you have twenty five family members and
Speaker 3: everything he shared about his life. Nobody in the room
Speaker 3: but me, because I talked to people and listened to them,
Speaker 3: knew much about him. Like they know he's an uncle,
Speaker 3: they know he's a doctors, but they don't know anything
Speaker 3: about his story. They don't know anything about his life
Speaker 3: yet yet they've known him their entire lives. So this
Speaker 3: lack of real connection and knowing who people are. I
Speaker 3: learned some things new about him I've known in my
Speaker 3: entire life. And then people started to ask questions and
Speaker 3: summarize and it was so cool. And guess what it
Speaker 3: was an hour? It was about forty five minutes. After that,
Speaker 3: everybody dispersed and went and did their own thing. But
Speaker 3: they left there like feeling like, Wow, I actually really
Speaker 3: respect my uncle. I know him, and I learned something
Speaker 3: that I can use in my life. And so that's
Speaker 3: kind of the power of when we are more conscious
Speaker 3: about the way that we connect.
Speaker 1: Right that also sounds very twelve step, you know, like
Speaker 1: that that's a lot of AA meetings or just you know,
Speaker 1: somebody telling their story for a half hour and then
Speaker 1: people kind of reacting and interacting with them. Which again
Speaker 1: it's like this prescriptive thing that addresses what ails us,
Speaker 1: which is that we don't want to do We don't
Speaker 1: want to do that, We don't want to listen to
Speaker 1: people and have to hear them and have to tangle
Speaker 1: with their humanity.
Speaker 2: I feel right, or like there is a presumption that
Speaker 2: you already know somebody too, like in the example of
Speaker 2: your uncle, Like I think of like other family members too,
Speaker 2: who I've every family gathering there there, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: that's so and so's brother and they're from here and
Speaker 2: they did that and now they're retired. But those like
Speaker 2: I know five but I only know those five things,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know the you know, the kinds of
Speaker 2: trials and tribulations obviously maybe the health things that we
Speaker 2: all know as a family they've been through. But to
Speaker 2: the other points, like a lot of those details are
Speaker 2: lost to the point where I would be like, is
Speaker 2: this person really my like because I like, I know
Speaker 2: who they are, but I couldn't really tell you that
Speaker 2: I know so much about them, and I think with
Speaker 2: like an exercise like that, to your point, Jack, it
Speaker 2: does feel it's like it's like we we kind of
Speaker 2: need that structure because left to our own devices again,
Speaker 2: like to like at least I can speak personally, those
Speaker 2: things will begin to just wither away from me, like
Speaker 2: if I'm not making a conscious effort. And as although
Speaker 2: it might sound like, wait, why are we doing this
Speaker 2: whole thing, it's like because the value in that is
Speaker 2: actually going to be much more additive than just sort
Speaker 2: of staying like with the status quo or the comfort
Speaker 2: of like being like, yeah, that's that's my relationship and
Speaker 2: that's just kind of how deep it goes. And that's fine.
Speaker 3: It's funny you said left to our own devices literally, right, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that that really speaks to something like there's
Speaker 1: a part of me that I've noticed that wants to
Speaker 1: make the person small reflexively, and like I have this
Speaker 1: theory that like it based on I pay a lot
Speaker 1: of attention to like what movies people like and what
Speaker 1: the movies like actually tell them, and like what the
Speaker 1: like meanings are like underneath the surface, and like I
Speaker 1: feel like one of the things that I've learned from
Speaker 1: the movies that were very popular over the past couple decades.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if they're becoming less popular, but like,
Speaker 1: certainly from the late nineties through like the mid teens,
Speaker 1: it was these movies that told people that they were
Speaker 1: secretly the most important person on the planet, like The Matrix,
Speaker 1: Harry Potter, Star Wars, like all those movies that are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: actually you are the one. You're more important than everybody else.
Speaker 1: And I feel like there's like something some part of
Speaker 1: me growing up in the system that I grew up
Speaker 1: in that rewards individualism and individual achievement that doesn't want
Speaker 1: to admit the humanity of other people because that means
Speaker 1: that I'm just one of eight billion, means you know
Speaker 1: the ones, Yeah exactly. So like from an early age,
Speaker 1: I feel like I was taught to admire individual achievement
Speaker 1: and the math of like one in eight billion, which
Speaker 1: is closer to the truth than anything you're going to
Speaker 1: get like in like some of these you know, movie
Speaker 1: mythologies like that hurts. It makes your life feel meaningless
Speaker 1: if you are sticking to that paradigm of individualism. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, I feel like that's another way where the
Speaker 1: system is like pushing us in this one direction that
Speaker 1: we have to be at least recognize that that's the
Speaker 1: system of meaning that we're operating within in order to
Speaker 1: get away from it, to get away from some of
Speaker 1: the dangers.
Speaker 3: Well, Chris Jack, that's so honest of you and just
Speaker 3: vulnerable admitting that feeling of wanting to be the one.
Speaker 3: I think everybody there's a lot of fantasy about oh,
Speaker 3: I want to matter, right, So it's like we're wanting something,
Speaker 3: we're wanting to matter. I think the shift we want
Speaker 3: to make though, is you have to be able to
Speaker 3: matter because there's no one like you. You're extremely unique,
Speaker 3: and so there's not really as much competition as we think.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there's a lot of different ways
Speaker 3: that we contribute.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: But the second thing is life that goes in phases.
Speaker 3: So there may be a time in your life where
Speaker 3: you absolutely need to be focused on individual achievements, right,
Speaker 3: But most people, if you get too caught up an
Speaker 3: individual achievement, you don't shift at the right time in
Speaker 3: your life. That's when you start feeling really lonely and sad.
Speaker 3: Because it's the law of diminishing returns. Right, you can
Speaker 3: achieve so much and now you might shift to another
Speaker 3: part of life where that same thing that drove you
Speaker 3: to individual achievement is no longer satisfying. And so now
Speaker 3: you need to shift to who are the people around me?
Speaker 3: Who are my friends? Who are my cheerleaders? Who are
Speaker 3: who am I connected to? And so we don't have
Speaker 3: to look at it. It is like every single phase
Speaker 3: of your life you have to be doing the same thing,
Speaker 3: but there are you know, now, what is the big question? Okay,
Speaker 3: I achieve this, who am I sharing it with? Is
Speaker 3: it meaningful? Do I even like it? I know a
Speaker 3: lot of people they identify these goals. And you know,
Speaker 3: I was a therapist, by the way, I should actually
Speaker 3: disclose that before I became a leadership strategist. And so
Speaker 3: you know, I've had the pleasure of sitting on a
Speaker 3: couch with people. And one thing that I find is
Speaker 3: that you achieve so many goals, but then it's like
Speaker 3: I'm still just feeling dead inside, right, because there's always
Speaker 3: another goal. There's always something else that we need to achieve.
Speaker 3: And so the point is, what is the constant that
Speaker 3: no matter what you're achieving or not achieving that makes
Speaker 3: you feel really good and purposeful and happy in life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, like there's like a heartbreak from those
Speaker 1: values that I was talking about, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: having kids, and also I like got into recovery around
Speaker 1: that time, and like so I think I was able
Speaker 1: to like kind of view those things a little bit
Speaker 1: with a little bit more distance and objectivity. But you
Speaker 1: know it also that new world, that new part of
Speaker 1: my life like definitely brought me in contact with into
Speaker 1: contact with a lot of the tools that I feel
Speaker 1: like you're talking about, which let's let's actually take a
Speaker 1: break and what we'll come back. I want to hear
Speaker 1: more about just first of all, like the specifics of
Speaker 1: like the power Hour, but also the specifics of like
Speaker 1: how people can think about listening to people a little
Speaker 1: bit more in a in a more engaged.
Speaker 2: And proactive way. So we'll be right back.
Speaker 1: And we're back, and yeah, so first of all, I'd
Speaker 1: just be interested in hearing because I think some of
Speaker 1: the stuff from the world of recovery can be like
Speaker 1: I won't like bring it into my day to day
Speaker 1: life because I'm like, well, that's like a different thing.
Speaker 1: And like people who aren't in recovery, won't necessarily understand
Speaker 1: that at the same time that I feel like people
Speaker 1: are talking about like problems that could be serviced from
Speaker 1: just like you know, some of these things that we're
Speaker 1: talking about. So I'd love to hear more about like
Speaker 1: the power our idea or just like ways that you
Speaker 1: have seen just you know, structurally getting people to interact
Speaker 1: with one another more, or you know, doing that for yourself,
Speaker 1: how you specifically get yourself to interact with people on
Speaker 1: a more humane, active, active listening level.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's interesting in the context of recovery.
Speaker 3: It's when you share your experience, strength and hope. And
Speaker 3: it's okay not to have to share the entire story
Speaker 3: of your struggles, but the experience, the strength, and the
Speaker 3: hope is how you live your life on a regular
Speaker 3: basis that works for you, right, And so a big
Speaker 3: part of the listening is number one, being able to
Speaker 3: have some reflective time to be able to know what
Speaker 3: that is, right. What do I actually I think about
Speaker 3: this a lot is what do I do on a
Speaker 3: regular basis. I meditate, I do do some journaling. I
Speaker 3: think a lot about how I'm treating people. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm really gentle with myself when I make mistakes, but
Speaker 3: I try to make amends when I do that, and
Speaker 3: then being able to share that with other people but
Speaker 3: also ask questions to create space for other people to
Speaker 3: share things about their lives. And a big part of
Speaker 3: this is when we're connecting with people, there are phases
Speaker 3: of we don't have to always share the entire war
Speaker 3: story right if it's not appropriate, if it's not the day,
Speaker 3: if it's not the right venue. But sometimes we throw
Speaker 3: the baby out with the bathwater. We can still just
Speaker 3: share little bites of like, you know, I see that
Speaker 3: you're having this struggle with I don't know what it is,
Speaker 3: maybe getting up and going to the gym. The way
Speaker 3: that I this is my strategy for when I don't
Speaker 3: want to do things right, I make a call, or
Speaker 3: I get a part, I get someone that holds me accountable,
Speaker 3: or just kind of sharing some wisdom that might be
Speaker 3: supportive for each other. And so even if we can
Speaker 3: kind of infuse that into some of our conversations, that's
Speaker 3: really important. It's interesting during the power Hour, one of
Speaker 3: the things that I do is I listen so intently
Speaker 3: to this. In this case, my uncle speaking that I'm
Speaker 3: able to repeat and summarize almost everything that he said
Speaker 3: in the entire forty five minutes, and people always find
Speaker 3: it to be some kind of superhero power, but it's not.
Speaker 3: I literally am just fully engaged in fully listening, and
Speaker 3: I'm not allowing my thinking to interrupt my ability to
Speaker 3: take in the wisdom that he's sharing. And so there's
Speaker 3: an actual process and strategy to be that good of
Speaker 3: a listener so that you can get the value out
Speaker 3: of the experience and the strength and the hope that
Speaker 3: other people have. So we really miss out when our
Speaker 3: listening is tainted.
Speaker 2: How would you say? We know, like we're most normal,
Speaker 2: like not normal, but most people who aren't being conscious
Speaker 2: of this are quote unquote listening, right because I'll be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm when people talk, I'm hearing what they're saying, and
Speaker 2: then that's it. But yeah, what sort of like the
Speaker 2: what are those sort of finer points that are different
Speaker 2: about those these ways of listening.
Speaker 3: So this is almost like a personality test. You have
Speaker 3: listening personalities, right, So there are people that listen in
Speaker 3: a very specific way. So for example, I know some
Speaker 3: people I'm trying not to mention names it right. Some
Speaker 3: people that they are, they're what I call a plugger,
Speaker 3: which means that like, no matter what you say, I
Speaker 3: don't care what kind of story you tell, they're always
Speaker 3: going to kind of plug something in about themselves or
Speaker 3: even plug something that benefits them. Then you've got the
Speaker 3: fact checker, right called podcasting. Okay, yeah, podcasting right, So
Speaker 3: then you have someone that's like the fact checker, where
Speaker 3: every single time, like you say something, they stop you
Speaker 3: and you're just trying to tell a story that like
Speaker 3: whether or not it happened in you know, eighteen seventy
Speaker 3: three or seventy four is not the point, but they
Speaker 3: will stop you and say something like are you sure
Speaker 3: that happened? Then what I read was that it happened
Speaker 3: in and it's like, that's.
Speaker 2: Not the calling.
Speaker 3: And my favorite one is the helper, which I have
Speaker 3: to be careful about not being that person, but I
Speaker 3: watch it and you know, again we're gentle with ourselves.
Speaker 3: Is when you're a person that someone is maybe telling
Speaker 3: you a story or they're trying to get some support,
Speaker 3: and you just jump in there without knowing the full contacts,
Speaker 3: and you're like context, all you need to do is
Speaker 3: just just get up and go to the gym every
Speaker 3: day and just run a mile if you heard it right,
Speaker 3: Just just eat. Someone told me. I was like, cause
Speaker 3: I've I've struggled with I'm always trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what to do with weight, you know, up and down,
Speaker 3: and just trying to always eat healthy and and it's
Speaker 3: it's always been a struggle. So when I ask certain people,
Speaker 3: they're like, I don't get what the problem is. Why
Speaker 3: don't you just eat fish and vegetables and then work
Speaker 3: out every day. It's so simple, and yeah, just just
Speaker 3: do that. And then they then they go and they
Speaker 3: start like eating their their you know, donut with like
Speaker 3: a six pack abs, and I'm like, yeah, thanks, thanks
Speaker 3: for the advice. But but he's not really listening to
Speaker 3: the context. Like the most important thing that I said
Speaker 3: in that particular instance was that this is hard for me, right,
Speaker 3: as opposed to I don't need the solution per se,
Speaker 3: but I need maybe a listening ear to work through
Speaker 3: why I think it's hard specifically for me right right.
Speaker 3: And again, that's what people want some support. They want
Speaker 3: you to understand the struggle. They want you to just
Speaker 3: get their stories and so that they can feel validated,
Speaker 3: and after they're validated, then maybe they can be open
Speaker 3: for solutions.
Speaker 2: Right In a way, it just sounds like we're basically
Speaker 2: decentering ourselves in these interactions. So whether it's our own
Speaker 2: urge to demonstrate our knowledge of a topic, or our
Speaker 2: own urge to find a way to make this topic
Speaker 2: be relevant to me, or our own urge to share
Speaker 2: some kind of wisdom, even though that's not what our
Speaker 2: person is, the person we're speaking to is asking for.
Speaker 2: It's sort of this, yeah, I don't know if it
Speaker 2: feels like it. It feels so contrary to like how
Speaker 2: we normally communicate with each other too, where it's like okay,
Speaker 2: what say the thing about you? Now? Okay, and now
Speaker 2: I say the thing about me, and I heard the
Speaker 2: thing you said, and now it's time for me to
Speaker 2: see the thing I said, rather than just like this
Speaker 2: much more effortless version of like, okay, so you just
Speaker 2: voiced a thing that you are dealing with, and now
Speaker 2: I can add to that by asking you to continue
Speaker 2: going along that right, and like, oh yeah, I've been
Speaker 2: doing that thing too, and then this is what happened,
Speaker 2: and that is that Okay. Now, what we don't have
Speaker 2: anywhere to go from there.
Speaker 3: Jack said it it's our urge to be the one.
Speaker 3: We've got to be the one. We've got to be
Speaker 3: the center of center of attention. And we all do
Speaker 3: it in some ways, but if we can be a
Speaker 3: little aware, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I do feel like we might be seeing a
Speaker 1: generational shift with this, like with younger people, Like I
Speaker 1: feel like it might have peeked with like baby boomers
Speaker 1: being like you know, self centered, just like very focused
Speaker 1: on the self and everything, and all the systems were
Speaker 1: like sort of designed around that. And what While mental
Speaker 1: health is not getting better for younger people, I do
Speaker 1: feel like in some of the things like the that
Speaker 1: you see, they are kind of acutely aware, like they're
Speaker 1: more likely to have like socialist leanings, Like they're more
Speaker 1: interested in like like even like in the growing interest
Speaker 1: in psychedelics, which are like medicines or drugs like depending
Speaker 1: on how you use them that kind of dissolve the
Speaker 1: ego or like take you out of like the self
Speaker 1: centeredness of like that way of perceiving the world. I
Speaker 1: do feel like there are some like glimmers of hope,
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of the mental health problems
Speaker 1: that we're seeing as like younger people existing in a
Speaker 1: world that is designed for this completely different paradigm that
Speaker 1: has been shown to be very very bad for the
Speaker 1: continued survival of the species.
Speaker 2: But I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like there's a rise in consciousness but
Speaker 3: a decline in connection. Yes, right, So it's like we're
Speaker 3: really conscious about what's going on. I think people are.
Speaker 3: I mean the knowledge you have access to so much knowledge,
Speaker 3: you have access to ideas and technology and innovations, I
Speaker 3: mean on so many levels. But then the question is
Speaker 3: what's going to be the impact long term of us
Speaker 3: really being able to kind of connect and feel interdependent,
Speaker 3: Because really, I mean, you can put me out in
Speaker 3: I like to watch those shows like Naked and Afraid.
Speaker 3: We're out in the woods, and I would say, if
Speaker 3: they gave me the tool, if they said we'll bring
Speaker 3: your cell phone in your charger, you wouldn't need the matches,
Speaker 3: you wouldn't need anything. You have your cephone and your charger.
Speaker 3: You can just survive out there and just look it up,
Speaker 3: right right, you can just put it. How do you
Speaker 3: keep warm without matches? I mean it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: do you want to take your cell phone or do
Speaker 3: you want to take somebody with you? I probably would
Speaker 3: just take my cell phone. I feel like I could
Speaker 3: have light. I feel like I can know stuff. I'll
Speaker 3: be good out out in the woods. But that is
Speaker 3: arise in my consciousness, but it'll be you know, I
Speaker 3: will underestimate the impact of the loneliness of being in
Speaker 3: the woods by myself.
Speaker 2: Why is it, though, do you think from your perspective,
Speaker 2: why it's become so easy to let go of the
Speaker 2: connection part because the connection feels so much better, you know,
Speaker 2: And I get that there's probably a lot more of
Speaker 2: like these sort of you know, fleeting distractions we have
Speaker 2: that have probably taken the place, but like it is
Speaker 2: kind of I'm always surprised when when I really look
Speaker 2: back and I'm like, oh, yeah, we've we really don't like,
Speaker 2: we really don't put much stock into that anymore, when
Speaker 2: that really was the lifeblood of our humanity. Like are
Speaker 2: this species for millennia?
Speaker 3: I think it depends on who you have surrounding you,
Speaker 3: because it can feel better, but it also can feel
Speaker 3: like a big hassle. It can feel worse. You have
Speaker 3: a lot of people that are very self conscious. Really,
Speaker 3: you know, if you feel like you're being judged constantly.
Speaker 3: You have people that will just make comments randomly about things.
Speaker 3: It was funny at the you know, at the end
Speaker 3: of the pandemic and a lot of people were going
Speaker 3: back to work and there are these comments that we
Speaker 3: came in and did some support. There are these comments
Speaker 3: that people were making. Wow, I didn't know you were
Speaker 3: so sure, but like, wow, people were just saying these
Speaker 3: random things. They're actually considered in some ways. They can
Speaker 3: be insults, they can be microaggressions, but it's like, in
Speaker 3: that particular case, why did you just say that? Right?
Speaker 3: Why are you Why are you just spewing these things
Speaker 3: out of your mouth that are causing you to alienate
Speaker 3: yourself or alienate somebody else. And so again there's there's
Speaker 3: the quality of those connections that I think is really important.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Human contact is great in theory, but have you smelled
Speaker 1: some of us, like it can be.
Speaker 2: A yeah, it's true. I had a firefighter put his
Speaker 2: respirator on. Well, he was in line with me at
Speaker 2: the supermarket earlier this week. Did not feel good. Really yeah,
Speaker 2: he's like this guy is right, and I was, oh
Speaker 2: he put it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, that joke did
Speaker 2: not land, and you know what, that's okay. That's why
Speaker 2: I embrace failure and I cannot be Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3: What And have you read the research around all this
Speaker 3: stuff into you know, they say that there's bad stuff
Speaker 3: for you and toothpaste, bad stuff and deodorant. I have
Speaker 3: like decided that I'm keeping the bad deodoran, the bad toothpaste.
Speaker 1: But you just wrote crystals, crystals don't do anything.
Speaker 3: I've decided I am not doing crystals, and I'm not
Speaker 3: doing natural youthpaste either.
Speaker 2: But I smell good. Tell hell, I smells great. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you so good. We haven't done that. We haven't done
Speaker 2: the show in person for years, yet.
Speaker 1: I do feel like one thing that I've noticed in
Speaker 1: myself is that the psychology of like how we interact
Speaker 1: with one another, modern interactions are are much more curate,
Speaker 1: like I just in comparison in comparing like my day
Speaker 1: to day life with people in the past, like where
Speaker 1: the being being in communities where you know, now I
Speaker 1: have kids. Now I'm just interacting with other parents and
Speaker 1: it's not like, well, I choose their like top of
Speaker 1: my list of like people to hang out with their
Speaker 1: you know, my kids friends parents in some cases, and
Speaker 1: or you know, in recovery, you're just thrown into a
Speaker 1: room with other people who have the same problem as you,
Speaker 1: but they are in a lot of cases not the
Speaker 1: person who you would have ever found yourself in the
Speaker 1: same room with. And in a lot of ways, I
Speaker 1: feel like that is mimicking how people used to live, right,
Speaker 1: like you knew your neighbor and interacted with them whether
Speaker 1: you liked them or not, and like your friends were
Speaker 1: based on who was on your I don't know, bowling team.
Speaker 2: I think they used to bawl a lot.
Speaker 1: It's just you know, But I do feel like part
Speaker 1: of my problem at least is like trying to be like,
Speaker 1: all right, is this the perfect interaction?
Speaker 2: Is this?
Speaker 1: Like you know, I am putting a lot of pressure
Speaker 1: on these interactions, like finding the right people to surround
Speaker 1: myself with is first of all, can be beneficial for
Speaker 1: the reasons that you're mentioning, like you don't want to
Speaker 1: surround yourself with toxic people.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I.
Speaker 1: Think I can also like overly curate, like in the
Speaker 1: in the way that a lot of like media now
Speaker 1: is just like me scrolling through four hundred movies to
Speaker 1: figure out like what the best movie is when some
Speaker 1: of my favorite movie watching experiences were just like back
Speaker 1: in the day, scrolling or you know, flipping past TNT
Speaker 1: and yeah, you know, a movie's on and you're like, well,
Speaker 1: that's the movie you're hanging out with for the night.
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess I'll watch two thirds of this
Speaker 2: movie exactly.
Speaker 1: So Yeah, I just wonder if you know, being a
Speaker 1: little more willing to spend time with people, whether or not.
Speaker 1: And I guess I guess that's kind of by necessity.
Speaker 1: If we're spending time with other people like on a
Speaker 1: regular basis, that's going to happen, right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think one of the things if you watch children
Speaker 3: and animals play together, they seem to have like a system.
Speaker 3: You know, you'll see little kids they just go up
Speaker 3: and they certainly either like they kind of tap each
Speaker 3: other and run. They just start running and it's almost
Speaker 3: like we're in the same world and we're just going
Speaker 3: to run. Or like the dogs they come up and
Speaker 3: it's like they have a little sniff going on and
Speaker 3: it almost seems like all the dogs know and you
Speaker 3: know you're supposed to like, you know, they kind of
Speaker 3: communicate with each other I feel like human beings we
Speaker 3: don't really have a system. And we see we think
Speaker 3: we do because we just say hello and you know,
Speaker 3: give these greetings. But I think we just need to
Speaker 3: embrace the awkwardness. There is just some interactions that are
Speaker 3: more awkward than others, but that's okay. If you stay
Speaker 3: in there for just a little bit longer, you might have,
Speaker 3: as you were talking about Jack, you might create a
Speaker 3: friend that you never thought you knew. This is why
Speaker 3: we gravitate too much towards people just like us, as
Speaker 3: we're trying to run away from any feeling of discomfort,
Speaker 3: any feeling of awkwardness. So if you have a room
Speaker 3: of people, you're going to gravitate towards someone you know
Speaker 3: you need a starter. They're from your hometown, they might
Speaker 3: look like you, and we kind of just deprive ourselves
Speaker 3: of so many relationships that would be nice. But you
Speaker 3: just have to kind of get past this initial awkward
Speaker 3: moment of I don't know what to say, I don't
Speaker 3: know what questions to ask. But if you've ever had
Speaker 3: those experiences, just a couple of minutes to get there,
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden, you know, those people can
Speaker 3: end up being some really great friends and great connections.
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially if you're different, if they're different from you,
Speaker 1: and you're focusing on like what you can learn from them, Like,
Speaker 1: then the more different they are from you, the more
Speaker 1: you can kind of learn from them. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in the book you just have some questions
Speaker 3: that you ask people. But we have to learn this
Speaker 3: art of just engaging, putting people at ease, and being
Speaker 3: comfortable with ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I to your point, Like, I was at
Speaker 2: an event like a couple of weeks ago, and I
Speaker 2: was just standing next to a person who was like
Speaker 2: seemingly I was like, I don't know what I would
Speaker 2: have in common with this person, but we realized there
Speaker 2: was like a mutual connection there and just started talking.
Speaker 2: By the end, this person, who if I was just
Speaker 2: going off of the sort of same thing, I'm like,
Speaker 2: are they from La do they kind of like do
Speaker 2: we look like we kind of fuck with the same stuff?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Not really, And then by the end of it, they
Speaker 2: were like super into comedy, super into basketball, like super
Speaker 2: into like similar art. And that all just happened from
Speaker 2: just just embracing just sort of like the awkward momentum
Speaker 2: of being like, oh what else like oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and then just kind of seeing where the conversation leads
Speaker 2: and yeah, like almost it proves my own instincts wrong
Speaker 2: where you're like, I I got everybody figured out mostly
Speaker 2: and like oh no, like and then to the point
Speaker 2: I was talking to my partner her magicy, I was like,
Speaker 2: we should kick it with them, Like his partner seemed
Speaker 2: cool too, Like where did that happen from? And I
Speaker 2: don't know. I think it's it's because, like I think
Speaker 2: I've fully let those skills of like being curious about
Speaker 2: other people just kind of die too, I think, as
Speaker 2: I think it just comes along with age. And I
Speaker 2: hope everybody listening. Look, Jack and I are not just
Speaker 2: sitting in like darkened like a dank cave not talking anybody.
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes we do, but yeah, there is like
Speaker 2: there is just like this other, I don't know, very
Speaker 2: basic part of being a human that I realize I've
Speaker 2: really let kind of to disintegrate. And this to a
Speaker 2: certain extent because of how much like all of these
Speaker 2: things that are at my disposal, whether that be through
Speaker 2: social media or technology, and I'm forgetting about the you know,
Speaker 2: the good old fashioned analogue stuff, you know, talking to people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I spend a lot of time really selling this
Speaker 3: concept because here's the deal, right, you have a limited
Speaker 3: amount of time. It's just easier to watch Netflix. It's
Speaker 3: easier to be on the phone, it's easier not to connect.
Speaker 3: And so what's in it for you? Why? Why move
Speaker 3: through discomfort? Why? Because it does take a little bit
Speaker 3: of effort and work right to connect to different people.
Speaker 3: It's the answer just so many challenges, And I think
Speaker 3: one thing that we miss in life is that we
Speaker 3: have these problems, We have these challenges even in like addiction.
Speaker 3: Like the answer is the connection, right, it's connecting to
Speaker 3: a higher power, it's connecting to other people. But the
Speaker 3: answer is like you have to work it. You have
Speaker 3: to work it right. But the benefit is, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: look look what happened. I surrendered something. Life got better
Speaker 3: and life continue to get better. And now, like you know,
Speaker 3: I'm I'm transforming my relationships and at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, I am much happier because I put in
Speaker 3: this effort. And so that is the core of this
Speaker 3: is we have to learn the skills and so with
Speaker 3: their habits that you do every single day that helps
Speaker 3: us to recover from Disconnection, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, Talia, it's been such a pleasure having
Speaker 1: you on the show. Where can people find you? Follow you,
Speaker 1: read you all that good stuff.
Speaker 3: So I'm very active on linked In and so you
Speaker 3: can just kind of go ahead and buy me on LinkedIn,
Speaker 3: but also Talia Fox speaks on Instagram. My book was
Speaker 3: released on November twenty eighth. It's the power of conscious
Speaker 3: connection for habits to transform how you live and lead
Speaker 3: really excited to show us with the world. I want
Speaker 3: to start a movement where we're just raising our consciousness
Speaker 3: and our connection so that we can actually leverage technology
Speaker 3: and really create a world where we're not zombies, but
Speaker 3: we're connected people doing amazing things and feeling really good
Speaker 3: about who we are and what we're up to on
Speaker 3: a regular basis.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And is there a work of media that you've
Speaker 1: been enjoying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. I enjoy so many things,
Speaker 3: and I do listen to a lot of a lot
Speaker 3: of spiritual things. I've been posting a lot of things
Speaker 3: out on the lake and talking about meditation and getting
Speaker 3: really quiet and more connected. But anyway, there's so many things.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I could even pick just one.
Speaker 1: Okay, Miles, where can people find you? Is there a
Speaker 1: work of media you've been in?
Speaker 2: Can find me rummaging through old tupperware full of gravy
Speaker 2: as I find every last spap available to me, just
Speaker 2: fighting the lids. I'm just in a cupboard somewhere. I've
Speaker 2: shown that I've learned nothing at all. But you can
Speaker 2: find me at Miles of Gray, wherever they have the
Speaker 2: at symbols. You can find Jack and I on our
Speaker 2: basketball podcast, Miles and Jack Got Mad Boosties, where we
Speaker 2: talk about the NBA and all the fun around the league.
Speaker 2: And if you like ninety Day Fiance and you like
Speaker 2: a little bit of frivolous reality like me, then check
Speaker 2: out four twenty Day Fiance. That's the show I host
Speaker 2: with so far, Alexandra.
Speaker 1: Tweet I've been enjoying trash. Jones tweeted, I'm doing an
Speaker 1: Irish Hello, saying I'll probably be there but never showing up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one move, my move.
Speaker 1: But we're working. We're working on it. We're working on it.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeikeeist. We're
Speaker 1: at d daily Zekeeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook
Speaker 1: fan page and a website daily zeikeist dot com where
Speaker 1: we post our episodes and our footnote where we link
Speaker 1: off to the information that we talked about in today's episode,
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles,
Speaker 1: what song do we think people might go?
Speaker 2: We're gonna go out on a Guyanese like African folk group.
Speaker 2: They're called Yoruba Singers. Uh. And this is a track
Speaker 2: that actually came on the seventies. I heard it like
Speaker 2: on NPR over the weekend, but I just really loved,
Speaker 2: you know, like I like hearing groups of people sing.
Speaker 2: Like there's something I think too of what we've been
Speaker 2: talking about. Connection, Like one vocalist is always great, but
Speaker 2: sometimes when you have multiple voices, it just gives something
Speaker 2: a little bit extra. Uh. And this track is called
Speaker 2: Black Pepper by the Yoruba singer So just check it out.
Speaker 2: It's like an old track. The recording quality is chanky,
Speaker 2: but you know what, it gives it that little bit
Speaker 2: of character that makes a song really fun to listen to.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Black Pepper Garuba Singers. All right. Well, The
Speaker 2: Daily Zeikes is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio is the iHeart Radio app, apps,
Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2: That's going to do it for us this morning.
Speaker 1: We are back this afternoon to tell you what is
Speaker 1: trending and we will talk to you all then.
Speaker 2: Bye bye by