1 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:11,750 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:15,190 --> 00:00:18,389 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:19,270 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 3: In 2014, 18-year-old Conrad Coco Roy was found. 5 00:00:24,340 --> 00:00:25,700 Speaker 2: Dead inside his truck. 6 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:31,540 Speaker 3: Investigators soon discovered thousands of messages between Conrad and 17-year-old 7 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:36,660 Speaker 3: Michelle Carter. including messages encouraging him to take his own life. 8 00:00:37,220 --> 00:00:41,430 Speaker 3: But the most shocking revelation came later. Conrad had gotten 9 00:00:41,590 --> 00:00:45,570 Speaker 3: out of the truck, frightened, and Michelle admitted to telling 10 00:00:45,610 --> 00:00:49,250 Speaker 3: him to get back in. She was ultimately convicted of 11 00:00:49,330 --> 00:00:53,430 Speaker 3: involuntary manslaughter in a landmark case that became the Hulu series, 12 00:00:53,890 --> 00:00:56,970 Speaker 3: The Girl from Plainville. Joining me today is the series 13 00:00:57,030 --> 00:01:02,870 Speaker 3: co-creator and co-executive producer, Patrick McManus. Patrick, welcome back to 14 00:01:02,910 --> 00:01:06,090 Speaker 3: killer thriller. And thank you again for talking with me. 15 00:01:07,069 --> 00:01:09,730 Speaker 3: I'll start by saying, I know this was a while ago, 16 00:01:09,770 --> 00:01:12,490 Speaker 3: the girl from Plainville, but I just finished it at 17 00:01:12,950 --> 00:01:13,929 Speaker 3: midnight last night. 18 00:01:14,110 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: So it's really super fresh for me. 19 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 3: And I just want to say straight away this and unexpectedly. 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 3: So this was just incredibly heartbreaking to me, this series. And, 21 00:01:31,890 --> 00:01:37,890 Speaker 3: So beautifully made. And again, the performances are stellar. I 22 00:01:37,910 --> 00:01:40,250 Speaker 3: could go on and on and on, and we will, 23 00:01:40,290 --> 00:01:48,059 Speaker 3: I'm sure. But it really reveals the heartbreaking private and 24 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: internal pain that teenagers go through, and that deep loneliness, 25 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,570 Speaker 3: the urge, and the need to connect for both Conrad 26 00:01:57,690 --> 00:02:00,270 Speaker 3: and Michelle. And it was honestly, it was very, very 27 00:02:00,310 --> 00:02:04,250 Speaker 3: hard for me to watch, but I think it's extraordinarily 28 00:02:04,290 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 3: important to, to talk about. So you went into this 29 00:02:09,380 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 3: maybe thinking that you knew the Michelle Carter story, but 30 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,739 Speaker 3: what did you learn that made you realize what you 31 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: thought you knew wasn't actually the whole story? 32 00:02:18,580 --> 00:02:21,220 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, thank you very much for that, 33 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:24,850 Speaker 1: for the, the praise of the show. And I'm, and 34 00:02:24,889 --> 00:02:29,100 Speaker 1: take it just a second and also, uh, loop in, um, uh, 35 00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Liz Hanna, who co-created it with me, um, cause she 36 00:02:32,460 --> 00:02:36,180 Speaker 1: was an extraordinary partner and, uh, and we were, we 37 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: were writing that and filming that in the heart of 38 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: the beginning of COVID. Uh, and so we, we were, 39 00:02:41,150 --> 00:02:44,390 Speaker 1: we were, we were in it together and, um, she is, uh, 40 00:02:44,470 --> 00:02:47,370 Speaker 1: she's a very, very talented writer. And as it turns out, director, 41 00:02:47,410 --> 00:02:48,970 Speaker 1: cause she directed for the first time on the show 42 00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: as well. And, um, And so any praise that comes 43 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,900 Speaker 1: my way, three quarters goes back to Liz. So to 44 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,930 Speaker 1: answer the question, you know, I did come in with 45 00:03:00,970 --> 00:03:05,250 Speaker 1: some working knowledge of Michelle. So when I got Jesse 46 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:08,470 Speaker 1: Barron's article, which is what kicked this entire thing off, 47 00:03:09,650 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: I had landed very solidly on the idea that Michelle 48 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,370 Speaker 1: was just a a deeply broken bordering on psychotic individual. 49 00:03:21,230 --> 00:03:27,090 Speaker 1: And so I came in with a judgment, which is 50 00:03:27,130 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: never a really good place to start as a writer 51 00:03:30,180 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: and especially a writer of true crime. I will say 52 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,220 Speaker 1: that I quickly tried to push that away. Like once 53 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,220 Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to begin to delve into the 54 00:03:41,260 --> 00:03:45,900 Speaker 1: research and the thing that, that, I will say that 55 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: I learned in 2019, which is sort of when I 56 00:03:49,460 --> 00:03:54,580 Speaker 1: first started circling the project, was that this show ultimately 57 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:59,260 Speaker 1: was a show that was, and what happened between Michelle, 58 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, with Michelle was ahead of its time in 59 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: many ways. 60 00:04:06,940 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 4: And what I mean by. 61 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: That is that she was clearly a, a broken individual, 62 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,380 Speaker 1: of course, but she was also a product. 63 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,700 Speaker 4: She and Conrad were a product of. 64 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: The internet age and specifically social media and even more 65 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,500 Speaker 1: specifically the dangers of phone. 66 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,620 Speaker 4: Usage all the time, right? And living in your own fantasy. 67 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: And as a father to two sons who are friends, 68 00:04:37,060 --> 00:04:39,850 Speaker 1: not just with other boys, but with other teenage girls 69 00:04:40,450 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: here in Los Angeles, you can see exactly how something 70 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,380 Speaker 1: like this could go the way that it went. And 71 00:04:47,740 --> 00:04:52,380 Speaker 1: so she went from being somebody who, again, did obviously 72 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,470 Speaker 1: a quote-unquote bad thing, but I don't know if she 73 00:04:56,510 --> 00:04:58,409 Speaker 1: necessarily had the tools. 74 00:04:59,630 --> 00:05:00,970 Speaker 4: To be able to do the right thing. 75 00:05:01,390 --> 00:05:06,930 Speaker 3: And it also felt very much like the series really 76 00:05:07,070 --> 00:05:10,300 Speaker 3: gives you a sense of this, that she might not 77 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:14,990 Speaker 3: even have fully understood what the ramifications of what she 78 00:05:15,050 --> 00:05:19,980 Speaker 3: was doing, but also might've really believed that she was 79 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 3: helping him achieve something, but then also the own kind 80 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: of self, like it's, it really shows the complications of 81 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 3: all of this. 82 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,470 Speaker 1: And that's sort of how we, we built it as 83 00:05:32,490 --> 00:05:39,870 Speaker 1: a writer's room. If you see Dr. Death, you see 84 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:42,610 Speaker 1: obviously this, you see Dublin Skies. I'm not a big 85 00:05:42,670 --> 00:05:47,229 Speaker 1: believer in ending these stories with a bow because I 86 00:05:47,350 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: actually fundamentally believe that most of the time, these stories 87 00:05:52,420 --> 00:05:55,700 Speaker 1: are not built in black and white, that there is 88 00:05:55,820 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: so much gray to them. 89 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:58,260 Speaker 4: And there are. 90 00:05:58,339 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: Usually multiple parties involved or institutions to blame quote unquote 91 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:06,210 Speaker 1: for what went wrong. There's always an, there's an individual 92 00:06:06,230 --> 00:06:09,010 Speaker 1: who did a bad thing, but there is something. 93 00:06:08,770 --> 00:06:14,740 Speaker 4: Larger that, that, that helped nurture it in some ways. Right. 94 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: And in the case of Michelle, obviously she, she, she 95 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:22,370 Speaker 1: did a wrong thing, but she, that's the easy way 96 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:23,010 Speaker 1: of just ending. 97 00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:24,650 Speaker 4: And then there's no story to tell. She just did 98 00:06:24,670 --> 00:06:26,029 Speaker 4: a bad thing. Right. 99 00:06:26,430 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: But exploring where she was emotionally and where she was 100 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,020 Speaker 1: mentally and where she was simply in, in, in, in, in, 101 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:39,220 Speaker 1: in her evolution as a teenage girl, right. 102 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:39,789 Speaker 4: Young woman. 103 00:06:40,589 --> 00:06:43,789 Speaker 1: And what both young women and young men go through 104 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:47,190 Speaker 1: as they enter the stage of life is, You know, 105 00:06:47,750 --> 00:06:52,060 Speaker 1: it's tricky to just say that she was evil or 106 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that she was bad. I think that that would let 107 00:06:55,420 --> 00:07:03,290 Speaker 1: you sleep better at night, especially as a parent. But 108 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: as a parent myself now, who's now with teenage kids, 109 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:08,420 Speaker 1: this was six years ago that I did this. Now 110 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,620 Speaker 1: I got teenagers. I am watching all of the dangers 111 00:07:11,660 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: that are around them. And I realize that there's a 112 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,020 Speaker 1: lot lurking in the darkness out there around these kids. 113 00:07:17,420 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: And it's so much easier than you would ever anticipate 114 00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:24,790 Speaker 3: because I have a 14-year-old daughter too. 115 00:07:24,950 --> 00:07:29,490 Speaker 2: And I see these things. It's overwhelming sometimes. 116 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,020 Speaker 3: And this case in particular became known as the texting 117 00:07:37,100 --> 00:07:44,010 Speaker 3: suicide case, which is accurate, but it's pretty reductive. It 118 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:47,590 Speaker 3: doesn't really explain the entire thing. And you had access 119 00:07:47,710 --> 00:07:52,989 Speaker 3: to their actual text messages, which were essentially the record 120 00:07:53,030 --> 00:07:58,580 Speaker 3: of their relationship. And what surprised you most about reading 121 00:07:58,600 --> 00:07:59,500 Speaker 3: those from beginning to end? 122 00:08:00,230 --> 00:08:02,450 Speaker 1: Oh God, that's the easiest thing for me to talk 123 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:06,150 Speaker 1: about because, um, so at first I had to get 124 00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: the rights to the story and Jesse, um, was lovely 125 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: enough to give me the right. This is before Liz 126 00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:13,940 Speaker 1: came on board. I, I, I was doing, I was 127 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: writing Dr. Death season one in the room and this 128 00:08:16,420 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: came across my desk. And then I, uh, Elle, uh, Fanning, 129 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:23,220 Speaker 1: I was already sort of, yeah. 130 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:23,610 Speaker 2: Another one. 131 00:08:23,620 --> 00:08:26,420 Speaker 1: She's, And by the way, one of the greatest things 132 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,940 Speaker 1: that's come out of this is that every once in 133 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: a while, Elle and I just get to text. 134 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:33,260 Speaker 4: And I love her to death. 135 00:08:33,300 --> 00:08:35,189 Speaker 3: You use that with your teenage sons? You're like, hey, 136 00:08:35,210 --> 00:08:37,590 Speaker 3: just so you know, once in a while, she texts me. 137 00:08:37,670 --> 00:08:38,230 Speaker 4: It's cool. 138 00:08:38,530 --> 00:08:41,670 Speaker 1: I have a few numbers in my phone that make 139 00:08:41,830 --> 00:08:43,890 Speaker 1: me cool and a lot of numbers in my phone 140 00:08:43,910 --> 00:08:44,990 Speaker 1: that I'm very uncool. 141 00:08:45,890 --> 00:08:47,290 Speaker 4: And I personally am very uncool. 142 00:08:47,790 --> 00:08:50,490 Speaker 1: Elle is definitely one of the cool ones. There's no question. 143 00:08:50,630 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: And we have, we've become friends. I mean, it was 144 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: a long process. And I will say that she, so when, I. 145 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: Don't know, what is she? She's 29 now? 28, 29? 146 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,020 Speaker 4: So she was something like 21, 22 when we met. 147 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,580 Speaker 1: And that first meeting that she and I and Jesse had, 148 00:09:08,490 --> 00:09:11,170 Speaker 1: she's a woman who is way beyond her years. I mean, 149 00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:15,309 Speaker 1: and every note that she ever gave, every challenge she 150 00:09:15,390 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: ever made over the course of that, from that first 151 00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:23,300 Speaker 1: dinner until wrap of production, when Elle had a thought, 152 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: you should listen because she is just so, so smart. 153 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,910 Speaker 1: And she was from the very beginning. And so anyway, 154 00:09:31,929 --> 00:09:36,540 Speaker 1: so the point being that once L was on board 155 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: and I had got the article, I was given all 156 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:40,100 Speaker 1: the research and I got these texts. 157 00:09:41,179 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 4: And again, I was alone again. 158 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:43,940 Speaker 1: So now I'm alone and I'm trying to figure out 159 00:09:43,980 --> 00:09:46,340 Speaker 1: how to make this show work. And I'm a, I'm a, 160 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: you know, an early forties, you know, man who probably 161 00:09:50,660 --> 00:09:52,699 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing this show, which is how Liz came 162 00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: into the, into the picture. I was like, I need 163 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: probably another perspective on this. 164 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:57,500 Speaker 4: That isn't just mine. 165 00:09:57,540 --> 00:10:03,620 Speaker 1: And I, when I pitched the studio my idea for 166 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,300 Speaker 1: the show before anybody else was involved, the first thing 167 00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:10,699 Speaker 1: that came out was this idea that the texts would 168 00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: live as dramatizations, that we would try to avoid the 169 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: bubbles as much as possible. 170 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 4: We had to have some bubbles. 171 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: But in a show that was entirely about texting, you 172 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:26,459 Speaker 1: had to find a novel way of doing it. 173 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,860 Speaker 4: Sure, great, whatever. 174 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:32,870 Speaker 1: But to the point of your question, This relationship that 175 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:38,110 Speaker 1: existed almost entirely on texts was as real as any 176 00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:41,929 Speaker 1: relationship that took place at an ice cream parlor or 177 00:10:42,030 --> 00:10:44,349 Speaker 1: at a movie theater or at a dance or in 178 00:10:44,390 --> 00:10:49,030 Speaker 1: a backyard. This lived real for them, and especially for Michelle. 179 00:10:49,070 --> 00:10:52,290 Speaker 1: But it was real. They were in love. They had 180 00:10:52,460 --> 00:10:54,819 Speaker 1: something that they had to fight for. 181 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:55,420 Speaker 4: And so when. 182 00:10:58,059 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: So the point of the dramatization wasn't just to not 183 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,329 Speaker 1: have audiences reading text bubbles. 184 00:11:03,370 --> 00:11:05,150 Speaker 4: It was like, you got to get in the mind of. 185 00:11:05,170 --> 00:11:09,870 Speaker 1: These kids where this is their way of communicating and 186 00:11:10,010 --> 00:11:13,130 Speaker 1: connecting on everything. And so when a young man says, 187 00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:16,310 Speaker 1: love of my life, I want to take my life. 188 00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:20,370 Speaker 4: It's got a reality to it. 189 00:11:20,910 --> 00:11:22,870 Speaker 1: And that's where the nuance and the gray comes in 190 00:11:22,929 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: where you can't just say this young woman was just broken. 191 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:29,130 Speaker 4: You have to say that, that, that, that she was 192 00:11:29,170 --> 00:11:29,890 Speaker 4: also in love. 193 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 194 00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:35,900 Speaker 3: Oh, it's very, it's very clear. And that's, it's such 195 00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:40,030 Speaker 3: a beautiful way of doing it because you also, when you, 196 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 3: when you, when you're dramatizing it with them actually together 197 00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:47,700 Speaker 3: in the same space, you see that the, the, the, 198 00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:52,490 Speaker 3: and also because they're both brilliant actors, you see that 199 00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:57,610 Speaker 3: like the discomfort and the awkwardness and the, that real 200 00:11:58,210 --> 00:12:01,940 Speaker 3: just desire to connect, but not knowing how to do it. 201 00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:06,689 Speaker 3: And it's just devastating. It's so heartbreaking. I could cry 202 00:12:06,770 --> 00:12:07,630 Speaker 3: thinking about. 203 00:12:07,450 --> 00:12:11,330 Speaker 2: It, imagining. It's a lot, too. 204 00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:15,630 Speaker 3: And so do you think that Michelle and Conrad were 205 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: actually experiencing the same relationship? Or did each of them 206 00:12:20,980 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: have kind of a different idea of what they were 207 00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:24,100 Speaker 3: to one another? 208 00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:28,030 Speaker 1: So that one is, that's a little bit tricky because 209 00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:31,709 Speaker 1: I definitely think that Michelle Carter was in love with this, with, 210 00:12:31,770 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: with Conrad. I, again, look, everybody, this is my opinion 211 00:12:35,059 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: and only my opinion. And people I think can have, 212 00:12:38,540 --> 00:12:40,020 Speaker 1: will have different perspectives on it. 213 00:12:40,020 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 4: But I, I, I think that she was in love with, 214 00:12:42,260 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 4: with him. 215 00:12:43,660 --> 00:12:49,380 Speaker 1: I think that Conrad was very interested in her and, and, 216 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 1: but I think that, He had a little bit of 217 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,510 Speaker 1: a broader life that was outside of just her. And we, 218 00:12:57,530 --> 00:12:59,370 Speaker 1: you know, we explore a little bit of it in 219 00:12:59,929 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: the series, not fully. I mean, because again, we had 220 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: access to all of her private texts that had nothing 221 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:06,780 Speaker 1: to do with him. 222 00:13:07,420 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 4: We had access to his texts that had nothing to 223 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 4: do with her. 224 00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:13,030 Speaker 1: And so, you know, if we were to tell this 225 00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:16,730 Speaker 1: story truly, truly right, it would have been three seasons 226 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:20,910 Speaker 1: of storytelling because their lives were much broader, especially his 227 00:13:20,980 --> 00:13:24,020 Speaker 1: life was much broader than we were able to do 228 00:13:24,059 --> 00:13:27,500 Speaker 1: in eight episodes of A True Crime. But I do 229 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:32,700 Speaker 1: think that regardless of whether he had his eyes set 230 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,370 Speaker 1: in multiple directions and hers was sort of myopic, He 231 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:40,290 Speaker 1: definitely had a relationship with her that took place online. 232 00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:44,150 Speaker 1: And I really do wonder, and this is a little 233 00:13:44,170 --> 00:13:47,770 Speaker 1: bit of a sidebar, I wonder how I would approach 234 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:48,510 Speaker 1: this show now. 235 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,500 Speaker 4: Now, seven years later, when we're in the throes of 236 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:52,020 Speaker 4: really how. 237 00:13:57,970 --> 00:13:59,270 Speaker 4: Damaging. 238 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:00,190 Speaker 2: Yeah. 239 00:14:00,490 --> 00:14:03,230 Speaker 1: And now seeing my kids where I got to wrestle 240 00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:05,070 Speaker 1: phones out of their hands and computers out of their 241 00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:08,250 Speaker 1: hands and, and, and get into battle royales over the 242 00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:10,900 Speaker 1: fact that, you know, their social life is online. And I, 243 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:14,250 Speaker 1: you know, I wonder how I would do it differently 244 00:14:14,309 --> 00:14:16,450 Speaker 1: because I do think that I have a different perspective 245 00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:19,690 Speaker 1: now as a, as a parent to, to teenage, to teenage, 246 00:14:20,390 --> 00:14:22,510 Speaker 1: to teenage boys who are friends with also teenage girls. 247 00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 248 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:40,470 Speaker 3: So early on, Michelle encouraged Conrad to get help, and 249 00:14:40,510 --> 00:14:45,210 Speaker 3: then eventually she was encouraging him to die, to take 250 00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:48,750 Speaker 3: his life. Was there a point in their messages where 251 00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:50,980 Speaker 3: you could actually see that shift happening? 252 00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:53,020 Speaker 4: Yes, 100%. Yep. 253 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:54,700 Speaker 1: I don't have it locked into my head the way 254 00:14:54,740 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: that I used to have it locked into my head, 255 00:14:56,100 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: and I apologize for that. But absolutely, in the three 256 00:15:00,780 --> 00:15:06,330 Speaker 1: days leading up to his taking his life, he... made 257 00:15:06,350 --> 00:15:12,290 Speaker 1: a really strong push on her, and she clearly started 258 00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:16,950 Speaker 1: to encourage him to do it, including, and we have 259 00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:19,970 Speaker 1: it in the show, including giving him multiple ways. 260 00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:21,270 Speaker 4: In which he could die by suicide. And that took 261 00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 4: a really disturbing turn. And that's where you begin to. 262 00:15:32,030 --> 00:15:35,750 Speaker 1: Question who Michelle Carter is because I mean, she says 263 00:15:35,810 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: she was advised to say you could drink bleach, right? 264 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: Like she starts to get super prescriptive, but then you'll 265 00:15:45,020 --> 00:15:47,170 Speaker 1: like see in the text where she bounces back to 266 00:15:47,230 --> 00:15:50,420 Speaker 1: being buoyant and, and they're just having a regular conversation and, 267 00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: But there's no question that in those last few days, 268 00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: she took a hard turn to encouraging him. And then 269 00:15:59,420 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: she said in her defense that she realized that he 270 00:16:03,490 --> 00:16:07,230 Speaker 1: really wanted to go and she wanted to help him. 271 00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:10,990 Speaker 1: And that was her, again, we can debate it, right? 272 00:16:11,890 --> 00:16:16,430 Speaker 1: Was it that it was actually she was psychopathic? Or 273 00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:18,380 Speaker 1: was it that she was in love and thinking that 274 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: she was playing Romeo and Juliet, which he was saying 275 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: to her, I could be your Romeo, right? 276 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:28,100 Speaker 4: So it wasn't that he was, he wasn't discouraging it. 277 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: It also really brings to light how text has no nuance. 278 00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: We don't understand what the tone of something is and 279 00:16:38,730 --> 00:16:42,630 Speaker 3: we interpret it the way, dependent upon how we're feeling 280 00:16:42,670 --> 00:16:46,130 Speaker 3: at the moment, what we are looking for in response. 281 00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 3: And you really don't, No, and that's how it can 282 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: be so, so dangerous. 283 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:00,150 Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean, look, it's, I mean, I'm going to 284 00:17:00,170 --> 00:17:00,910 Speaker 4: go back to it again. 285 00:17:00,950 --> 00:17:03,270 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just, it's, it's this thing, this, this, 286 00:17:03,490 --> 00:17:08,810 Speaker 1: this story, Girl from Plainville was the hardest story that, 287 00:17:08,830 --> 00:17:12,060 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked about how Devil in Disguise was 288 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,010 Speaker 1: the easiest story for me to write. This was the 289 00:17:15,050 --> 00:17:16,909 Speaker 1: hardest one for me to be a part of because 290 00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:22,710 Speaker 1: there are so many nooks and crannies of ethical and 291 00:17:22,830 --> 00:17:29,650 Speaker 1: moral and societal responsibilities to be explored in this case. Yeah. And, 292 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: and one of those things is how we communicate with 293 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,620 Speaker 1: each other and are we communicating right with each other? 294 00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:37,060 Speaker 4: Right. 295 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: And, and look, as a 50 year old man who 296 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:42,330 Speaker 1: wishes that we could just get back to the eighties, 297 00:17:42,350 --> 00:17:44,810 Speaker 1: you know, I think that we're deeply off track. 298 00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:46,130 Speaker 4: Me too. Me too. 299 00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:48,190 Speaker 1: Yeah. But then I think that my parents thought that 300 00:17:48,530 --> 00:17:50,169 Speaker 1: we were off track and their parents thought that they 301 00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:51,030 Speaker 1: were off track. Right. 302 00:17:51,150 --> 00:17:53,659 Speaker 2: I know. I try to make those parallels, but I. 303 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 1: But I think that the more that we remove ourselves 304 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,780 Speaker 1: from one another physically, the more. 305 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 4: People lack humanity. 306 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:10,030 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not to be super reductive, but it's 307 00:18:10,270 --> 00:18:14,710 Speaker 1: kind of like the reason why if somebody steps on 308 00:18:14,770 --> 00:18:17,209 Speaker 1: our foot in an elevator, we say, no problem. But 309 00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:21,010 Speaker 1: if somebody crosses into our lane in a car without signaling, 310 00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:26,649 Speaker 1: we scream obscenities at them. There's this remove that enables 311 00:18:26,770 --> 00:18:31,449 Speaker 1: us to just get into our most basic base instincts 312 00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:38,100 Speaker 1: of rage and contempt and judgment. And the more that 313 00:18:38,140 --> 00:18:42,060 Speaker 1: we remove ourselves from one another's humanity, the easier it 314 00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:46,379 Speaker 1: is to ultimately do wrong by people. 315 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 3: I really think this is one of the reasons that 316 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: this series is so effective. in making that choice to 317 00:18:56,340 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: show these two people speaking to one another as opposed 318 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,770 Speaker 3: to reading, you're forced to really look at, oh, god, 319 00:19:04,850 --> 00:19:09,070 Speaker 3: this is how this could have felt. Like, if they 320 00:19:09,170 --> 00:19:13,489 Speaker 3: were in person, perhaps this wouldn't have ended the way 321 00:19:13,550 --> 00:19:16,139 Speaker 3: it did. Because if you have to sit with a 322 00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 3: person and hold their hand or look in their eyes, 323 00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:22,780 Speaker 3: you have a different impact. 324 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,820 Speaker 1: There is no world, in my opinion, there is no 325 00:19:28,940 --> 00:19:33,620 Speaker 1: world in which Michelle Carter sits in that parking lot 326 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,220 Speaker 1: physically with him and lets him take his own life. 327 00:19:39,310 --> 00:19:45,609 Speaker 1: There's no world. I don't see it being possible. And 328 00:19:46,190 --> 00:19:49,790 Speaker 1: I think that that's like the great tragedy. And I 329 00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:51,830 Speaker 1: will say, and I'm not defending her. I'm in no 330 00:19:51,869 --> 00:19:56,570 Speaker 1: way defending her. I'm just speaking biography. She did say 331 00:19:56,590 --> 00:20:00,250 Speaker 1: to him she wanted to reach out to his parents. 332 00:20:00,310 --> 00:20:01,990 Speaker 1: And he basically said, I'll never talk to you again 333 00:20:02,030 --> 00:20:04,170 Speaker 1: if you do that. And that was heartbreaking to her, right? 334 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:06,530 Speaker 1: And so I think that there's no world if they 335 00:20:06,550 --> 00:20:09,109 Speaker 1: were together that it would have gone the way that 336 00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:15,210 Speaker 1: it went. And that's, I guess, kind of a little 337 00:20:15,230 --> 00:20:22,220 Speaker 1: bit of the point. But yeah, it's a particularly tragic 338 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: story on so many levels. And definitely, like I said, 339 00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: the most challenging show to do. And I'll say because 340 00:20:31,310 --> 00:20:36,210 Speaker 1: Liz and I talked ad nauseum beforehand and then talked 341 00:20:36,350 --> 00:20:39,670 Speaker 1: to the room and then talked on set. About how 342 00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:42,770 Speaker 1: our greatest fear was that this was going to somehow 343 00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:54,890 Speaker 1: romanticize mental health issues or desires, predilections towards suicide. And 344 00:20:54,950 --> 00:20:57,550 Speaker 1: that made it a very dangerous show. But it actually, 345 00:20:59,030 --> 00:21:01,550 Speaker 1: I think that we threaded that needle, I think. 346 00:21:02,180 --> 00:21:06,660 Speaker 3: Oh, I absolutely think that you did. When I say, 347 00:21:07,060 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: I have to watch a lot of disturbing things for 348 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:14,179 Speaker 3: this podcast. And there are many that keep me up 349 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,909 Speaker 3: at night for various reasons. This, honestly, I've just felt 350 00:21:19,810 --> 00:21:27,970 Speaker 3: so sick and so just, it's incredibly important, the discussions 351 00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:30,899 Speaker 3: that this show brings up and that this case bring 352 00:21:31,020 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 3: to light. 353 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,060 Speaker 2: And I just, I. 354 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 4: Can I ask you a question? 355 00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: Yes. I'm curious. 356 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 4: Would you, would you let your daughter watch it? 357 00:21:41,460 --> 00:21:45,510 Speaker 3: I thought about this because she, while several of the 358 00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:47,430 Speaker 3: times when I was watching it over the course of 359 00:21:47,470 --> 00:21:50,650 Speaker 3: the last day and a half, she, you know, was here. 360 00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:52,350 Speaker 2: She didn't have school yet yesterday. 361 00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 3: And I, I absolutely not right now, but I think 362 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,650 Speaker 3: she's 14. And I would let her, I would watch 363 00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 3: it with her. I think maybe, I mean, maybe now 364 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,050 Speaker 3: or maybe in six months or so, maybe when she's 15, 15. 365 00:22:15,050 --> 00:22:17,610 Speaker 2: Because it just, it covers so. 366 00:22:17,550 --> 00:22:20,170 Speaker 3: Many things that, you know, as a parent, you can 367 00:22:20,350 --> 00:22:23,449 Speaker 3: talk all day long in your kid's ear about whatever. 368 00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:27,220 Speaker 3: And it's usually, at least maybe it's only in my case, 369 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:30,580 Speaker 3: You know, it's not very easy to hear or to 370 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: digest or to listen to. And that's another thing of 371 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 3: why I think telling these kinds of stories in narrative 372 00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:41,619 Speaker 3: form is so important because we can digest them in 373 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: a different way. And so I will, I would, I 374 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,060 Speaker 3: would let her see it, but I may be in 375 00:22:49,540 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: six months or so or. 376 00:22:50,540 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 4: When she's 15. 377 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:50,899 Speaker 1: Yeah. 378 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,410 Speaker 4: You're definitely not the only one, just to be clear. 379 00:22:57,810 --> 00:22:59,250 Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure. 380 00:22:58,890 --> 00:23:02,590 Speaker 1: There's a long line throughout the course of history of 381 00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: kids not listening to their parents in any way, shape, 382 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:06,260 Speaker 1: or form. 383 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,379 Speaker 4: That's for sure. 384 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,580 Speaker 1: But I get it. My eldest watched it five years ago. 385 00:23:13,619 --> 00:23:15,590 Speaker 1: He's 15. But only because I. 386 00:23:17,130 --> 00:23:19,530 Speaker 1: It was COVID, and I was editing in my house, 387 00:23:19,810 --> 00:23:21,410 Speaker 1: and so he would sit in and. 388 00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:22,209 Speaker 4: Watch with me. 389 00:23:22,670 --> 00:23:24,510 Speaker 2: Wait, when he was 10? 390 00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:26,410 Speaker 4: I'm a terrible parent. 391 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 3: Well, you also, it's different if you're actually there editing it, 392 00:23:31,540 --> 00:23:33,700 Speaker 3: and then you can have a real... He can have 393 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,459 Speaker 3: an understanding. These are not real people. Even though they 394 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: are real people, you can watch. It's a different. 395 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,190 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've seen all of my stuff in various forms 396 00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:45,370 Speaker 1: because they just. 397 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 4: I don't know. I, I, again, I don't know if 398 00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:50,580 Speaker 4: I'm doing it right or wrong. 399 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,820 Speaker 1: I was raised by a single mom and, um, she 400 00:23:53,859 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: was a cocktail waitress and a bartender and there. 401 00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 4: Was, she had no control over us. Right. She couldn't. 402 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,030 Speaker 4: And so she sort of had to trust us. 403 00:24:00,109 --> 00:24:03,010 Speaker 1: And so we watched everything and we read everything and 404 00:24:03,850 --> 00:24:06,190 Speaker 1: at very young ages. And I just sort of, um, 405 00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:08,630 Speaker 1: our house is sort of built the same way, which 406 00:24:08,650 --> 00:24:11,270 Speaker 1: is like, look, we're going to talk about it. Um, 407 00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:14,030 Speaker 1: especially if you see something that doesn't make sense, we're 408 00:24:14,050 --> 00:24:14,700 Speaker 1: going to talk about it. 409 00:24:14,930 --> 00:24:15,169 Speaker 4: But yeah. 410 00:24:15,970 --> 00:24:18,310 Speaker 3: We definitely, I mean, this is a really interesting question 411 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:22,670 Speaker 3: because sometimes I think, I think I'm far more conservative 412 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 3: than I believe I am. 413 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 2: Or than I present, you know? 414 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 3: And I don't know that that's good either because, but 415 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 3: we at the same time are very much, I am 416 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,179 Speaker 3: a big believer in talking about it, about whatever is 417 00:24:38,420 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 3: happening and what you see and what you might see. 418 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,450 Speaker 2: And All of that. 419 00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: I think the point of this conversation and our past 420 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,060 Speaker 1: conversation is that there are very rarely right and wrong 421 00:24:48,140 --> 00:24:51,380 Speaker 1: answers in life. And I think that there's very rarely 422 00:24:51,420 --> 00:24:53,740 Speaker 1: a right and a wrong. I mean, I can pinpoint 423 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,580 Speaker 1: the wrong things you should do as a parent to 424 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: a kid, but I think that this is all personal. 425 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 4: And it's all. 426 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,030 Speaker 1: And the more that we see each other as individuals 427 00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:07,170 Speaker 1: with individual wants and needs and ways of learning and 428 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:11,510 Speaker 1: ways of harming, right? And then... we'll be a better 429 00:25:11,550 --> 00:25:13,930 Speaker 1: society if we could break out of the one size 430 00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:14,390 Speaker 1: fits all. 431 00:25:14,890 --> 00:25:16,610 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. 432 00:25:17,790 --> 00:25:25,930 Speaker 3: Conrad struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts long before Michelle 433 00:25:26,030 --> 00:25:26,869 Speaker 3: entered his life. 434 00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:30,429 Speaker 2: That's well documented. But what did. 435 00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:34,609 Speaker 3: You feel the headlines had missed about who he actually was? 436 00:25:36,350 --> 00:25:40,740 Speaker 4: Look, I think that what was interesting, I think that Conrad... God, 437 00:25:40,780 --> 00:25:41,700 Speaker 4: it's such a great. 438 00:25:41,530 --> 00:25:46,270 Speaker 1: Question because it, it feels like the headlines figured it out. 439 00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:48,930 Speaker 4: After the fact, you know, like he was just like, 440 00:25:48,970 --> 00:25:49,449 Speaker 4: I hate. 441 00:25:49,290 --> 00:25:52,169 Speaker 1: To, to really be, to really boil it down, but 442 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:57,419 Speaker 1: he was just a regular kid. I mean, like, and, 443 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: and that all came out in many ways. I feel 444 00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:04,550 Speaker 1: like it was, it was almost wielded against Michelle Carter 445 00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: in some ways about how, this is just a regular 446 00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:11,699 Speaker 1: kid who was going through some tough times and she 447 00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:15,820 Speaker 1: took advantage of that and murdered him, right? And I 448 00:26:15,859 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: look at it a little bit, I look at it 449 00:26:17,420 --> 00:26:20,130 Speaker 1: a lot differently, but I think he was a regular 450 00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:25,389 Speaker 1: kid who was battling with his mental health, who I 451 00:26:26,430 --> 00:26:31,780 Speaker 1: think his parents both supported and struggled in trying to 452 00:26:31,820 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 1: figure out what worked for him. 453 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,350 Speaker 4: Which I think makes him all the more of a 454 00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:37,010 Speaker 4: regular kid. 455 00:26:37,090 --> 00:26:42,170 Speaker 3: Yes. That was so identifiable, even though the details are 456 00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: different in my own life, for example. But I think 457 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,460 Speaker 3: that is a very, it's done so well. And again, 458 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:55,429 Speaker 3: Norbert and Chloe, good lord. What an embarrassment of riches 459 00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:58,230 Speaker 3: in this show, too. Everyone is so, so good. 460 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,730 Speaker 4: Without a doubt. 461 00:27:00,810 --> 00:27:02,950 Speaker 1: And I will say with all due respect to Elle, 462 00:27:03,310 --> 00:27:04,970 Speaker 1: Chloe being in my phone is cooler. 463 00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:09,030 Speaker 4: But that may just be... Elle, if you're listening, I 464 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:10,050 Speaker 4: love you. You know I love you. 465 00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:14,780 Speaker 3: But Chloe, much like Marin, has a tough job as 466 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:21,939 Speaker 3: well that she... But somehow finds the rainbow myriad of 467 00:27:22,020 --> 00:27:25,940 Speaker 3: colors of grief and worry about your child. 468 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: Like those two things. She somehow... made it a feast of, 469 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,420 Speaker 2: she just is so, so good. 470 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: Someday someone's going to recognize Chloe, 78's talent and, and 471 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: put her in things. 472 00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 4: It's, it's any day now she's going to break out. 473 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 4: I'll tell you. So she's just, she's amazing. She's amazing. 474 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,260 Speaker 1: I mean, and, and you're completely, I don't want to even, 475 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:50,740 Speaker 1: I'm going to just repeat what you said. So I'm 476 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: not going to do that. Like she, watching her do 477 00:27:53,260 --> 00:27:56,460 Speaker 1: her thing was, was magical. And, and in a similar 478 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: way that I, that we spoke about Marin, we, we, 479 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:02,730 Speaker 1: yell cut and suddenly you're just hanging out with Chloe and, 480 00:28:02,980 --> 00:28:05,220 Speaker 1: and talking about the grateful dead and whatever. 481 00:28:05,260 --> 00:28:08,100 Speaker 4: You know, like, you know, like she, she was just 482 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,540 Speaker 4: so she's magic. She's pure magic. 483 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: Um, and, and, and, and, uh, and on, on the, um, 484 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:18,180 Speaker 1: and the next version of us doing this, um, I 485 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: will share the story of me trying to put in 486 00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:23,740 Speaker 1: a baby gate into her, uh, house when she arrived 487 00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:26,740 Speaker 1: in Savannah and totally, and totally screwing it up. 488 00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:29,740 Speaker 2: Endangering the lives of children, right? 489 00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:31,300 Speaker 4: No, they never got behind it. 490 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,030 Speaker 1: I screwed it up so hard that we had to 491 00:28:33,070 --> 00:28:35,830 Speaker 1: bring a professional in to put it in. So anyways, 492 00:28:36,810 --> 00:28:41,470 Speaker 1: and she still forgave me. But anyways, yeah, no. Yeah, 493 00:28:41,530 --> 00:28:42,650 Speaker 1: I think that, yes. 494 00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:43,150 Speaker 4: And I think. 495 00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: That Norbert and Chloe really did do a wonderful job 496 00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: of portraying these parents who have jobs and have jobs 497 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,540 Speaker 1: bills to pay and have struggling and they're trying to 498 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,620 Speaker 1: find a way to keep their kids safe at the 499 00:28:58,660 --> 00:29:02,590 Speaker 1: same time. And, and that is so universal. Like we 500 00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:06,870 Speaker 1: are all just, you know, like I say it, I 501 00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:08,410 Speaker 1: say it all the time and this is going to 502 00:29:08,450 --> 00:29:11,260 Speaker 1: sound insulting to some people and I don't mean it. 503 00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:12,590 Speaker 1: I really don't mean to be insulting, but I was like, 504 00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:16,070 Speaker 1: there is no book you can read to prepare you 505 00:29:16,110 --> 00:29:19,170 Speaker 1: for this. Right. Like I, we read all the books and, 506 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: Trying to keep our kids safe and it's not how 507 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:22,860 Speaker 1: it works. 508 00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:25,100 Speaker 4: In practice, it. 509 00:29:25,220 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: Is not the same thing. 510 00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: No, you're feeling your way through the dark constantly and 511 00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:31,390 Speaker 1: you're battling your. 512 00:29:31,310 --> 00:29:34,670 Speaker 4: Own demons and your own upbringing and. 513 00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:38,730 Speaker 1: What you think was built into your hard drive as 514 00:29:38,750 --> 00:29:39,850 Speaker 1: to how to do this right. 515 00:29:39,950 --> 00:29:43,900 Speaker 4: And you're not able to. It's never a one-to-one. Right. 516 00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 4: And so it's. 517 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: Heartbreaking to watch what these parents went through on both sides. 518 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:49,940 Speaker 2: Both sides. 519 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:50,900 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 520 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,300 Speaker 3: So Michelle's obsession with Glee is something that was not 521 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 3: invented for the series. She actually borrowed dialogue from the 522 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,140 Speaker 3: show in her own messages. 523 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,660 Speaker 2: What did that tell you about her? 524 00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:22,140 Speaker 4: Very early on, it told us that she lived in 525 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 4: a fantasy. I mean, like she, she... you're correct. All 526 00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:29,340 Speaker 4: of that is real. 527 00:30:29,620 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: All of that is supported in, in texts that we 528 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 1: were able to explore as well as in, in, in 529 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,140 Speaker 1: some of the police investigations. And we, and by the way, 530 00:30:40,180 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: like when I say she lives in fantasy, my sons 531 00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: live in fantasy. 532 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,420 Speaker 4: Every day, right? 533 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Like Young people are trying to make sense of the 534 00:30:52,220 --> 00:30:56,770 Speaker 1: world and they look to media in all of its 535 00:30:56,830 --> 00:30:59,950 Speaker 1: forms to help form who they are and what they 536 00:30:59,990 --> 00:31:01,090 Speaker 1: believe the world should be. 537 00:31:02,730 --> 00:31:07,990 Speaker 4: And Michelle Carter didn't live in any more. 538 00:31:07,850 --> 00:31:11,230 Speaker 1: Fantasy with Glee and the idea and the romance of 539 00:31:11,310 --> 00:31:14,940 Speaker 1: Glee and the possible love affairs that she was seeing as, 540 00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:17,380 Speaker 1: and I mean this with all due respect to anybody who. 541 00:31:17,340 --> 00:31:20,300 Speaker 4: Goes to Comic-Cons around the world, right? 542 00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:23,239 Speaker 1: And anyone who comes up to me after screenings or 543 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: panels and, And, and, and like. 544 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 4: Lives in this. I mean, geez, I mean what we're 545 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:28,410 Speaker 4: doing today. Yep. 546 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:32,650 Speaker 1: Right. In this is feeding a form of fantasy for 547 00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:35,670 Speaker 1: people of getting information about, about the world around them 548 00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:37,830 Speaker 1: and how it exists and how we explore it through 549 00:31:38,150 --> 00:31:40,330 Speaker 1: what I do for a living as we're talking about today. 550 00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:40,570 Speaker 4: Right. 551 00:31:41,130 --> 00:31:43,350 Speaker 1: So she just lived in this fantasy world as a, 552 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: as a young woman who was seeing, this is what 553 00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:51,219 Speaker 1: love looks like because of the media. And, you know, 554 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: I don't blame, I'm not blaming media. 555 00:31:53,020 --> 00:31:53,660 Speaker 4: I'm part of it. 556 00:31:54,260 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: But there is a responsibility to understand that people really 557 00:31:57,580 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: take these things seriously. 558 00:31:58,820 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 4: And there's no judgment on that. 559 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,180 Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I take that she took it as 560 00:32:04,330 --> 00:32:06,590 Speaker 1: almost like a course in how do. 561 00:32:06,510 --> 00:32:07,990 Speaker 4: You be romantic. 562 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:08,950 Speaker 1: Right. 563 00:32:11,310 --> 00:32:15,260 Speaker 3: So one of the most haunting questions is also, I think, 564 00:32:15,380 --> 00:32:19,940 Speaker 3: one of the simplest, which is Michelle knew what Conrad 565 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,150 Speaker 3: was doing. So why didn't she call his mother, the police, 566 00:32:24,410 --> 00:32:24,630 Speaker 3: or 911? 567 00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:33,150 Speaker 1: I mean, look, therein lies the entire question of is 568 00:32:33,210 --> 00:32:36,770 Speaker 1: she good or is she evil or does it live 569 00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:40,590 Speaker 1: somewhere in between? I am going to share my feelings 570 00:32:40,670 --> 00:32:43,470 Speaker 1: on it, which is that I believe that she was 571 00:32:43,490 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: struggling with her mental health. I believe that she was 572 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:52,290 Speaker 1: struggling with her self-image. I believe that she believed that 573 00:32:52,330 --> 00:32:55,430 Speaker 1: she was in love with this young man and that 574 00:32:55,490 --> 00:32:59,430 Speaker 1: she could look back on all of the times that 575 00:32:59,450 --> 00:33:02,990 Speaker 1: they had talked over months and months and months and 576 00:33:03,010 --> 00:33:05,469 Speaker 1: months and the couple of times that they saw each 577 00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:06,190 Speaker 1: other in real life. 578 00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:10,900 Speaker 4: And I think that she could rationalize to herself, this. 579 00:33:10,820 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: Young, unformed brain that I've done everything that I could 580 00:33:13,820 --> 00:33:17,380 Speaker 1: do to try to make this, you know, Conrad happy 581 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: and full. And maybe the thing that is really going 582 00:33:21,860 --> 00:33:24,940 Speaker 1: to make him love me the most, maybe the thing 583 00:33:24,980 --> 00:33:28,030 Speaker 1: that will prove that I love him the most is 584 00:33:28,090 --> 00:33:30,590 Speaker 1: if I help him achieve this goal. 585 00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:32,990 Speaker 4: And that is simply my perspective. 586 00:33:33,070 --> 00:33:35,130 Speaker 1: And I am positive that there are many people who 587 00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:37,910 Speaker 1: will listen to what I just said and think that 588 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:42,570 Speaker 1: there is a callousness to that answer. Um, But I 589 00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:45,590 Speaker 1: have to look at it from a nuanced perspective. I 590 00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:47,970 Speaker 1: cannot look at it from a black and white. 591 00:33:48,030 --> 00:33:48,870 Speaker 4: Yes, of course. 592 00:33:49,730 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: If one of my sons did this, absolutely. My first 593 00:33:54,580 --> 00:33:57,260 Speaker 1: thought is what the hell were you thinking? How the 594 00:33:57,340 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: hell did you not call me? How the hell did 595 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,940 Speaker 1: you not call the police? How did you not call 596 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,780 Speaker 1: the other parent? What is wrong with you? And that's 597 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,339 Speaker 1: the immediate gut reaction to anything like this. 598 00:34:10,410 --> 00:34:11,049 Speaker 4: It's vile. 599 00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:15,310 Speaker 1: It's vile on the surface. But if you spend any 600 00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:18,589 Speaker 1: time looking at it in greater depth, then you've got 601 00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:21,370 Speaker 1: to look at it through the perspective, the broken prism 602 00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:26,110 Speaker 1: of this teenage girl's mind and the history that they shared, 603 00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: quote unquote shared. And that makes it problematic to just say, 604 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: why didn't you call the police? Why didn't you call 605 00:34:35,580 --> 00:34:39,580 Speaker 1: the parent? Because there's history there that led her to 606 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,540 Speaker 1: make this decision. 607 00:34:42,450 --> 00:34:43,310 Speaker 4: As wrong as it was. 608 00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:45,580 Speaker 2: Okay, last two quick questions. 609 00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 4: One and a half. 610 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,700 Speaker 3: One, were you surprised that she was convicted of involuntary manslaughter? 611 00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:54,890 Speaker 3: And did you or anyone involved with the series ever 612 00:34:54,930 --> 00:34:55,790 Speaker 3: try to contact her? 613 00:34:55,810 --> 00:34:58,790 Speaker 1: We'll start with the second question first. 614 00:34:58,850 --> 00:34:59,649 Speaker 4: No, we did not. 615 00:35:00,610 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: We operated completely off of Jesse's research, um, for his 616 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,220 Speaker 1: article and then, uh, our, our private research. 617 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,339 Speaker 4: Um, as, as well. 618 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,570 Speaker 1: Um, because that to us felt like the sort of 619 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,890 Speaker 1: most responsible way of exploring it sort of from, uh, um, 620 00:35:22,750 --> 00:35:24,230 Speaker 1: without being influenced in some way. 621 00:35:24,830 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 4: Right. Um, We did reach out to the Roy family. Absolutely. 622 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: And Lynn Roy in particular. We did speak to her. 623 00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:40,020 Speaker 1: She was a part of it. But it was, you know, 624 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,860 Speaker 1: it was not necessarily to frame story or character. It 625 00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:46,470 Speaker 1: was just so that she was a part of the process. 626 00:35:47,210 --> 00:35:51,650 Speaker 1: And we're very appreciative of that. So that's part one. 627 00:35:51,670 --> 00:35:55,110 Speaker 1: And part two is, was I surprised? 628 00:35:57,150 --> 00:35:57,850 Speaker 4: Not only was I. 629 00:35:59,330 --> 00:36:04,109 Speaker 1: Not surprised, but I actually support the decision. I think 630 00:36:04,170 --> 00:36:08,339 Speaker 1: she did something wrong. And I think that there are 631 00:36:08,410 --> 00:36:12,860 Speaker 1: consequences for making wrong decisions in life. And some of 632 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 1: those consequences means that your car keys get taken away. 633 00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:18,580 Speaker 1: And some of those consequences means that your freedom gets 634 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,250 Speaker 1: taken away. And it's something that Again, to just be 635 00:36:23,290 --> 00:36:27,660 Speaker 1: completely focused on me, it's something that I am trying 636 00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: to impart on my two teenage sons is that there 637 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: are consequences. There's only so much that we can protect 638 00:36:33,660 --> 00:36:41,450 Speaker 1: you from. And Michelle Carter made a horribly wrong decision. 639 00:36:41,850 --> 00:36:43,170 Speaker 1: And we can talk about all the reasons why she 640 00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: made that decision. But she made the decision. And there 641 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,180 Speaker 1: are consequences for those actions. And I think that she, 642 00:36:50,900 --> 00:36:52,819 Speaker 1: I think she received a sentence that, I don't know 643 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: if the sentence was. 644 00:36:53,489 --> 00:36:55,790 Speaker 4: Too light or too harsh, but I don't think she 645 00:36:55,810 --> 00:36:57,069 Speaker 4: could have just been let go for that. 646 00:36:57,530 --> 00:36:57,730 Speaker 1: Right. 647 00:36:58,870 --> 00:37:00,650 Speaker 2: Well, I happen to agree with you. 648 00:37:01,969 --> 00:37:06,370 Speaker 3: Again, your dream, this, I could, we could talk for hours. 649 00:37:06,610 --> 00:37:09,069 Speaker 3: I wish that we could, but I'm going to They're 650 00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:10,450 Speaker 3: going to shut us down here. 651 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: By the way, Universal keeps trying to get me to 652 00:37:13,820 --> 00:37:16,140 Speaker 1: make more true crime, so maybe we can do this again. 653 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:17,060 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 654 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 3: The Girl from Plainville is streaming online, and everyone should 655 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,450 Speaker 3: watch it. It's powerful and important. Patrick, I can't thank 656 00:37:27,489 --> 00:37:28,910 Speaker 3: you enough. Thank you so much. 657 00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:30,870 Speaker 4: Right back at you. I appreciate you taking the time 658 00:37:30,890 --> 00:37:31,350 Speaker 4: to talk with me.