1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. It's 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: funny how so often those secrets get passed down, and 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: some smuggled down secretly. It's like he'd clapped me out 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: in the back and then slipt it into my pocket 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: and I didn't notice. He's like the artful dodger. And 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: maybe his mom did the same thing to him. You 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: don't know where you're getting it, you know. I would 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: have said if I'd had to guess that he had 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: been unfaithable, But I didn't know that, and we've never 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: talked about it, and I never, certainly would never have thought, 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: like I want to model myself. I'm that guy who 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: I can't get it you enough love from That would 13 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: be a mistake. Why would I want to do that. 14 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: I was trying to be the opposite. That's Tad Friend, 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: staff writer for The New Yorker, an author of the 16 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: memoir Cheerful Money, as well as the recent In the 17 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: Early Times, A Life Reframed. Tad's is a story about stoicism, silence, 18 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: and shame. It's also a story about a complex emotional 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: legacy passed from generation to generation. A father, a son, 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: a shared history of marital infidelity, that leaves a great 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: deal of damage in its wake until the cycle is 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: finally broken. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 24 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 25 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: The first house I grew up and was in Buffalo, 26 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: New York, it felt very dark. Um. I don't think 27 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: it actually objectively was. I mean, there's probably just as 28 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: much son in Buffalo um and in most other parts 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: of the world. But it felt like the house felt dark. 30 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: And that's because I spent most of my time when 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: I was young on the sun porch, which is all 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: entirely mullioned. Last windows looking out on those days were 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: still this sort of avenue of elm trees before Dutch 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: elm disease took them all down. The reason I think 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: the house felt dark is because I was alone. I 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: was the first child and for four years, the only child. 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: And also because the living room felt to me and 38 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: maybe actually was dark, and my mom was beyond it 39 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: in the kitchen, usually doing something, and it felt like 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: that sort of almost like a moat between me and 41 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: the sunlight and the rest of the house and her 42 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: and my dad wasn't around much. He was a Southeast 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: Asian history professor at the University of Buffalo. And those 44 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,119 Speaker 1: first four years of darkness and isolation are pretty tough 45 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: to shape. That's a fairly important time in anyone's life. 46 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: And I blamed my mom bar without having any understanding 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: of her own difficulties or what she was going through, 48 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: or her postpartum depression or her filling left alone a 49 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: bout my dad to with this baby that she hadn't 50 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: really wanted, which, on the one hand to make you 51 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: feel worse, like who wants to be the unwanted child? 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know, like, hey, here 53 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: I am. And she started to do her best, and 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: she became a lot better mom later, and I felt 55 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: like so many of the things that I like about 56 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: myself actually come from her. I like my sense of whimsy, 57 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: I like missions of humor, I like my playfulness, and 58 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: that's all straight from her. Soon, though, the darkness begins 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: to lift. When Tad's brother and sister come along. The 60 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: house becomes livelier, more jolly. His parents are warming to parenthood, 61 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: becoming better at the job, and raising their proverbial game. 62 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: When Tad is almost eleven, the family relocates from Buffalo 63 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: to Swarthmore, Pennsylvania. My dad became the president of wealthmart 64 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: College in nineteen seventy three, and we were lived in 65 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: a gigantic, colossal field stone house called Overstone, what wasn't 66 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: really called Overtold by anyone, but technically was his name. 67 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: And that sort of tokei nish name UM felt right 68 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: because it had a sort of goblin ish feel somehow, 69 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: Um and my parents were both always super busy. I 70 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: felt like that was sort of the end of my 71 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: childhood with my dad in some ways. You know, we 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: all had our own bedroom, you know, in this new 73 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: big president's house, and there were three floors and just 74 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: endless rooms, and it was gigantic and a nice place 75 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: to run around and play, but a lot of it 76 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: was sort of also felt off limits because there were 77 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: constant cocktail parties and dinner parties for the college of 78 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: events which we were not invited to and basically shoot 79 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: away from. And also because you know, we just didn't 80 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: see much of my parents. And you know, with the 81 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: benefit of Hindstein and being help myself now, I realized 82 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: that they're both just insanely busy. And overworked and doing 83 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: their best, but it felt like that we were we 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: can sort of weaving but drowning a bit in terms 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: of trying to get their attention. Describe your father, who 86 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: you called Day, described Day both Buffalo Day and then 87 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: slothmore Day. How did he change and what was that like? 88 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: Buffalo Day coached my soccer team, the Panthers UM and 89 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: was excitable and enthusiastic about kicking soccer ball with me 90 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: and coaching our team and taking me out for a 91 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: Hamburg actor practice. And he felt like his dad. You know, 92 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: you could look from the dad on TV, you know, 93 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: in a family show, and then turn my dad and 94 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: I kind of nod that yet that dad he felt engaged. 95 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: And then swathmore Day felt disengaged and preoccupied with faculty 96 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: treachery and board uprisings and students camping out in his 97 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: office and protesting to Vietnam War, which he himself was against. 98 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: UM and he gave a lot of weight, and he 99 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: felt harried and harassed and like he wasn't doing a 100 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: very good job, which he probably wasn't in the first 101 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: couple of years, but I think he got better at it, 102 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: and it just felt like we were another claim on 103 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: his time, so I had never felt I felt that 104 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: he would hit baseballs to me in the yard sometimes 105 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: for like twenty minutes after he got home, but not 106 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: And it always felt like he had a sense of 107 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: like you know, a surgeon who was about to go 108 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: into surgery, and he was kind of like mentally cutting 109 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: the minutes until you know, he's got to go and 110 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: do it. It had a feeling of like forbearance to 111 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: him rather than a joy in it. My mom she'd 112 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: had like nine billion conversations with him about over the years, 113 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: beginning probably on like the second day against wat More. 114 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,119 Speaker 1: That was a big source of their strife during that period. 115 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: It was just that he was never home and never available, 116 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: so I think she didn't say too much. It was 117 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: mostly the kids who were now growing up saying it, 118 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: and which we hadn't like that before because we weren't 119 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: asked to and we're sort of psychically discouraged from delivering 120 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,679 Speaker 1: a word. It done the unhappiness, and I was probably 121 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: the most unhappy. I'm thinking about my sister maybe giving 122 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: me a good race for it. Our brother in the 123 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: middle has always seemed very equable and able to get 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: along anywhere and thinking the best of everyone. And he 125 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: has sort of somehow, you know, grew up under a 126 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: cabbage sleeve in some different, slightly different universe than we did. 127 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: So but I think, yeah, my sister helps neglected, and 128 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: I certainly did. I think their marriage appeared to friends 129 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: and people on the outside to be magical, and they 130 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: seem to in public always be attentive to each other, 131 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: taking cues from each other. They were married for more 132 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: than forty years. They had a really rough patch in 133 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: swathamore where they were in therapy together, and I think, 134 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: I'm they just felt neglected. And she wrote him a 135 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: letter one point saying like, you know, I'm not having 136 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: any fun? Are you having any fun? And neither one 137 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: of them was having a whole lot of fun. And 138 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: I think she felt like he becomes sort of a 139 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: pompous ass, and he felt that she was always nagging him, 140 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: and I didn't understand all the challenges you faced. You know, 141 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: they were reasonably good about not blowing up at each 142 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: other in front of us, because their wasps and they 143 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: would go blow up each other, you know, you know, 144 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: just a region of the house or take a walk 145 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: or do something. But we still got the general drift 146 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: of a kind of current of mutual unhappiness, and I 147 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: think think things sort of get get her sort of 148 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: by and large. Once my dad left that job, I 149 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: think my mom made her peace with sort of being. 150 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: We carved out her own life a bit. She started 151 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: to become a painter. Um she didn't feel like an appendage, 152 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: which she was clearly as the wife of the president Blosmore. 153 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of just social duties of 154 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: smiling to people and saying on what a nice frock. 155 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: And when she started to paint, and she became a 156 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: board member in high school and took on more project 157 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: where people, he was using more of her years and 158 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: not just sitting around whenning to phone to ring. So 159 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: that helped in the course of becoming a parent myself 160 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: and growing older. And I think kind of understanding my parents, 161 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: I hope better than I did. I feel much closer 162 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: to them and much more forgiving is probably the word, 163 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: or grateful too. Time has a way of allowing us 164 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: a different understanding of the complicated people who raise us. 165 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: As we evolve, our sense of our parents often evolves too. 166 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: In midlife, Ted learns to think of his parents not 167 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: just as parents, but as people too, complex and multifaceted people. 168 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: But before he reaches this point, when he's in college, 169 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: something else strikes him about evolution. It was something I 170 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: was reading about a primatology class, and it was about 171 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: this experiment that he's insane. But scientists had done with 172 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: baby monkeys by taking them away from their mothers and 173 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: then giving them the surrogate mothers, who were these sort 174 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: of as I imagine it anyway, like and I think 175 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: they describe it as sort of a metal armorature covered 176 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: with some cloth, but in a very rudimentary way. She 177 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: was like the bare minimum of monkey nous. And then 178 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: they had these these sort of mother contraption monkeys, and 179 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: of course the baby monkeys would kind of try swarm 180 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: all over this, you know, sort of numbly inert mom 181 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: looking for comfort. And then they had all these things 182 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: where they would they would blast like air out of 183 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: the monkey mothers nipples at the baby to see how 184 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: strong the instinct to go back to the mom was. 185 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: And they had spikes to chat out of the abdomen, 186 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: and it was like all these sort of insane, horrifying 187 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: torture things that I almost couldn't read about them, but 188 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: it actually reading about it plunged me back into that 189 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: state of being on the sun porch. And obviously my 190 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: mom was not a metallic monster with hair shooting at 191 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: nipples as part, and I know, but the experience, the 192 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: sense of like desperately trying to swarm towards my mother 193 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: for comfort and being rebuffed was very strong beneath that, 194 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: and that it invoked in such a way that I 195 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: kind of was intrusive. I kept sort of thinking about 196 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: the bathing monkeys when I was going to class or 197 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: eating lunch and we're talking to friends in college and 198 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: I and it. I had to kind of almost like 199 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: just push it all away with a great effort of 200 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: will to not think about it, because it kind of 201 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: took me over. I never talked about it with my 202 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: mom for obvious reasons, but um, but it definitely stayed 203 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: with me as a weird and unpleasant reminder of the 204 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: weird and unpleasant four years that I had spent kind 205 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: of trying to get more affection and maternal cuddling from 206 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: her than um she was capable. Also, while Tad is 207 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: in college, he tries, as many college students do, to 208 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: decide on what he'd liked to do with his future. 209 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: He considers pursuing law that he keeps returning to the 210 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: idea of becoming a writer. He had seen both his 211 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: parents right professionally and otherwise, and it's a world that 212 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: seems both familiar and appealing to him. I had been 213 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: working in a magazine called The American Lawyer my first 214 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: year after college, because I thought that I would be 215 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: a great way to both right and also get exposure 216 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: to what lawyers actually did all day. And that turned 217 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: out to be true. Um, and the result was that 218 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: I realized I did not want to be a lawyer. 219 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: My dad had was a historian, and he'd written his 220 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: first big history book at One's Big Prize, and he'd 221 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: written a novel that came out eight scurity seven and 222 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: got pretty good reviews, and he thought it would started 223 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: thinking himself as like someone who could write more novels, 224 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: and he did, but of course he couldn't get any 225 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: of them published. But I didn't necessarily think of him 226 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: as a writer when I was kind of in high 227 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: school and college, because he had written one book and 228 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: then his second book had been kind of put on 229 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: a hold. Well, he was running Swathmore College. So he 230 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: wasn't really writing, and so I didn't feel I think 231 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: he still I think he he thought of himself a writer. 232 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: He had turned out he'd years later I discovered that 233 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: he'd been writing like lots of poetry and in the 234 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: sixties and um, and they'd been keeping these very extensive journals, 235 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: um And I think he communicated with himself most effectively 236 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: by writing down what he was feeling, and then he 237 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: could sort of know what he was feeling. But if 238 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: he didn't write it down, and almost was like he 239 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: didn't feel it or he didn't understand it. So he 240 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: was almost writing to an audience of one a lot 241 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: of the time, which later became an audience of two 242 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: because I read all the stuff that he wrote. That's 243 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: what I was just thinking, is that he he was 244 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: writing as a way of knowing himself. You know, he 245 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: was elusive to himself. He was also ellusive to you. Yeah. 246 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: But the thing I didn't know was that he was 247 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: listening to himself. I thought he was keeping it from 248 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: us on purpose. But I had sort of intuitive that 249 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: he somehow was reserving his inmost self for reasons unknown, 250 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: and that we were not getting it. My sister and I. 251 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: My sister Timmy and I both for sometime sort of 252 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: thought there's sort of a bit of a child's fable 253 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: quality to it. Where would we just say the right phraise, 254 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: the rock will spring open and the you know, like 255 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: and the steps will go down and to the basement 256 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: with the sects of gold. There was something he was 257 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: sort of like, maybe we can this time, and you know, like, oh, 258 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: what if we do this or what if we asked 259 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: him about that? And I gave up at a certain point, 260 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: probably about twenty five years ago, and my sister really 261 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: didn't you know, and I can we I would talk 262 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: with her about it, and and I would say a because 263 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: she would often end a conversation, a bad phone conversation 264 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: with him and be really kind of stricken by it. 265 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: And I would At that point, I was like, if 266 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: you go to the potato store and they say they're 267 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: out of potatoes, they don't have any podatos, Like I 268 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: was like they you know, just thinking like it's not 269 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: going to happen. But there were some podatos there. We 270 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: just didn't know. And I remember, you know, there was 271 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: a point late in my dad's life when I was 272 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: somehow the one who was as Signs who asked him 273 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: about his plans for his memorial service, which was sort 274 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: of a tricky conversation. Um he seemed to welcome it. 275 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: He was like, he loved the idea of people celebrating 276 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: his life, and he had all these ideas, none of 277 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: which seemed to involve any of his children speaking about him. 278 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: But there were some eminent Southeast Asian historians we had 279 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: in mind would be old to really eat sum them up. 280 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: And then that's once you sort of talked about all 281 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: the some of the details of this and that who 282 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: could talk. And I started asked him to some other 283 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: questions about this this phase of his life and what 284 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: was difficult and what was the best part, and he 285 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: said something like, you know, the best part is getting 286 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: the time an opportunity to really to reconsider something and 287 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: make up my mind in a different way about things. 288 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: And I was thinking, like, wow, this could be the 289 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: moment where he says, you know I always really loved you, 290 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: or you know, I'm sorry that I didn't always express 291 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: the deep feelings I have or some version of that. 292 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: I was kind of like poised and like just like 293 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm blame, thinking this is going to be it, and 294 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: I said, you know, well, you know, do you have 295 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: any examples? And he said, well, I might be just 296 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: about ready to change my mind about Franklin Roosevelt. And 297 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: I was started like, yeah, all right, I still no 298 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: petitause we'll be right back. In the mid nineties, Tad 299 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: is in his thirties when his mom is diagnosed with 300 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: breast cancer. It metastasizes and she becomes very, very sick. 301 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: At this point, Tad's father is no longer president of 302 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: Swarthmore College. He's running the Eisenhower Foundation. But when his 303 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: wife gets sick, he steps down from his position and 304 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: steps up as her caretaker. He's attentive, staunch, and loving. 305 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: It's in this phase of their relationship that Tad's parents 306 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: can reconnect and find joy with one another, even in 307 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: the face of grave illness. And then my mom unfortunately 308 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: died to them and three so that cut short what 309 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: would have been I think a great late My mother 310 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: lives you know the West fifteen or twenty years, and 311 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, it turned out later on my dad had 312 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: made me his literary executor, and when I was reading 313 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: there's papers that he had been faithful to her. Once 314 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: in the sixties in Indonesia we told her about, which 315 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: precipitated her big storm honestly in their marriage, and then 316 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: later on a couple of other times which he didn't 317 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: tell her about. As far as I can tell, I 318 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: think he felt like she once he told her about 319 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,479 Speaker 1: the first time that he was unfaibled or kind of 320 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: cut off that part of their relationships, the intimate part 321 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: in some way, that intimate physical part, and none of 322 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: this was you know, they weren't talking about this with us, 323 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: believe me. But this was again just something I didn't 324 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: really know about it until after he died. If someone 325 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: had asked you before he died, do you think that 326 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: your father was unfaithful to your mother? What would you 327 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: have said? Yeah, I would have guessed that he was 328 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: with no evidence, no actual evidence. I could sort of 329 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: feel some kind of in some sub sonic frequency kind 330 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: of weighed his sense of dissatisfaction and the way he 331 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: would sometimes laid up around other women. So I would 332 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: have guessed that. You know, if you said she had 333 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: been unfaithful, I would have been really shocked. She could 334 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: be flirty, but it was it wasn't clearly that was 335 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: like just in a kind of like didner party hostess 336 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: kind of way in the role of his father's literary executor. 337 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: As Tad pours over Day's writings, he discovers the specificity 338 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: with which Day recounted his extramarital affairs three women, five nights, 339 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: forty one years. Day had done the math. There was 340 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: writing two of Day's mother's many affairs which had impacted Day. 341 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: But even before Tad discovers the scope of this generational infidelity, 342 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: he spends his early adulthood with a nagging and persistent 343 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: fear of intimacy and a fear of being vulnerable. He 344 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: has a desire to be known, but also to be hidden. 345 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: These fears cause him to stress test his relationships, to 346 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: test the loyalty of the women he dates. During the 347 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: same period of his life, he's also searching for father figures, 348 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: though at the time he doesn't realize that's what he's doing. 349 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: I think I was doing both things without knowing them, 350 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: without understanding. It wasn't like I said, I shall stress 351 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: test this relationship. Observed there is also right a you 352 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: know new hypothesis. Because I was dimly aware of how 353 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: fragile and insufficient I felt in a relationship how I 354 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: felt like when you know, if someone really needed me 355 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: to be there for them, or you know, like if 356 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: I had to be get married or and be around 357 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: with someone all the time and they could see me, 358 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: and you know, like I was extremely closed off. I 359 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: could kind of I can't remember what that term is 360 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: on the Myers Briggs thing, but whatever it is, where 361 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: you can be an extrovert for like two minutes at 362 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: a party and then exhaust you and then you have 363 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: to like go lie down with a compress over your eyes. 364 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: That was that I wasn't quite lying now the compress, 365 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: but I was like, I can engage with people, but 366 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: then I really needed or wanted space because I think 367 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: I felt like they're getting too close. You know. The 368 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: the hounds are the hounds of people who actually want 369 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: to know who I am are being, and therefore, you know, 370 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: time to run away. I would like to retroactively apologize 371 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: to all all of my friends and particularly any girlfriends 372 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: from my teens through my early thirties, and um, I 373 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: was terrible, and I apologize because I only later on 374 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: began to realize how terrible it was. I did you know, 375 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: it was like the stress testing was just sort of 376 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: like more of almost like pushing up pressure relief style 377 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: of like you know, well, you know I won't be 378 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: endangered into a see if I I'm also presenting this 379 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: other person. And the way that I think I think 380 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: that was linked to my equally unknowing search for other figures, 381 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 1: is that I was looking for some kind of model 382 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: for what I should be doing with my life and 383 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: how I should be a man. He felt like my 384 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: dad wanted to be some kind of version of him 385 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: where everything was processed through your brain and nothing was 386 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: processed in your heart too, And I felt like, even 387 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: though I wasn't very good at processing these things in 388 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: my heart, that's what I wanted to do. Um So 389 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: I was looking for people who it seemed better at it, 390 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: and it seemed to have access to their feelings and 391 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, who either took joy and daily life or 392 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: who seemed savvy about you know, other people's feelings. And 393 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: I sort of thought, well, it could be savvy about 394 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: other people's feelings, and maybe there's a way of locating 395 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: my own triangulating you know, where I am by seeing 396 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: where everyone around me is. It was a kind of 397 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 1: me blindly groping my way towards as it turned out, 398 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: towards decades of misery. I didn't as I did. I 399 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: was hoping it would work out better. I think objectively, 400 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: my dad seemed like, you know, he was a decent husband. 401 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: But I think it's rare that people say I really 402 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: want to have exactly my parents marriage. I mean, there 403 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: are aspects that you know that you end up having 404 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: whether you want to or not. And usually and you're like, okay, 405 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: and there are maybe one or two things you would 406 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: like to have, but most part you're like, you kind 407 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: of know the way that goes, and you want something. 408 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: It would be great if your parents came with a 409 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: handbook and you could just like look through it or 410 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: like a set of instructions, even in bad English. You 411 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: know that from me somewhere far away, and you get 412 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: this sort of printed out a little mimio sheet that 413 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: says your dad was raised by two wasps in Pittsburgh. 414 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: His father was an a total alcoholic who was a 415 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: nice but extremely ineffectual man who was fired from his 416 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: last job at forty three and never worked a day 417 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: in his life after that. Your father could never really 418 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: respect him, even though he loved him, and your father's 419 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: mother Um lost respect for her husband and had numerous 420 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: affairs that were widely known, and your father was embarrassed 421 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: about that and never quite worked through his feelings about 422 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: women as a result. That would be really handy. I mean, 423 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be ready for it at age three or four, 424 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: but it would be nice if you. It's sort of 425 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: like became, you know, It's like in a Harry Potter's way, 426 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: someone would send an owl for you with these little 427 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: updates every now and again. It would be helpful because 428 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: I didn't get that information. I didn't really have any 429 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: picture at all of my grandparents, but we didn't see 430 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: much of them his parents anyway, until I was an adult. 431 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: And by then, of course, as you were saying, like, 432 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: it's all the streams have already moved around the rock, 433 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: and you're already set alone in your way. Pretty well, 434 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: what Tad calls blindly groping, i'd call actively thoughtfully searching, 435 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: searching for a partner, searching for answers about his family, 436 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: and searching for answers about himself. But of course, in 437 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: order to find answers, he must first ask questions. He 438 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: must put himself under the microscope to uncover why he's 439 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: been so closed off. He seeks and engages in therapy 440 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: with a Freudian analyst, and also embarks on group therapy, 441 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: a particularly scary endeavor for someone with a limited threshold 442 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to vulnerability and social interaction. Well, there 443 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: was an aspect of like a version therapy, whereas like 444 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: my worst fear, like exploding yourself to it, like if 445 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: you don't like flying, you look at video plane crashes 446 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 1: or something. And it was really hard. The first might 447 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: have been an hour and a half, but spending that 448 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: at the end of it, I was I was wrong 449 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: out And even if I hadn't said it a damn thing, 450 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: which I pretty much didn't. For the first we had 451 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: accepted kind of enigmatic remarks about other people, but I 452 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: didn't say anything about myself. But I still was exhausted 453 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: by just the sheer, vibrating emotionality of it all. Exhausting 454 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: and emotional are good words to describe this time in 455 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: Tad's life. It's around the year two thousand, now the millennium, 456 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: and it appears the hard work he's done on himself 457 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: is paying off. He's opening up in therapy. He's met 458 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: a woman, a writer named Amanda Hesser, who he marries 459 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: just a couple of years later in two thousand two. Then, 460 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: of course, the asteroid of his mother's death comes in 461 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: two thousand three. It's an intense time, to say the least. 462 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: And just a few years later, in two thousand six, 463 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: Tad and Amanda have twins. They're building a life together 464 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, two talented writers with robust careers and wonderful 465 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: little kids. But that generational scope of infidelity presents itself 466 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: to Tad, and he succumbs to it, just like his dad, 467 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: just like his grandmother. I'm struck by there's this moment 468 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: in your book where you quote something that day Rights, 469 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: which is, I seem to be the prisoner of my history, 470 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: regrettable as that may be. And it's right after this 471 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: line of days, I seem to be the prisoner of 472 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: my history, regrettable if that may be. That then you 473 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: write I cheated on Amanda in two thousand and eight, 474 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 1: And that juxtaposition just felt to me like it was 475 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: you acknowledging that you too were a prisoner of your 476 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: own his tree. And you go on and you write, 477 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: having long feared being known, I had cheated and lined 478 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: in ways that gave credence to the fear. Right, we'll 479 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: be back in a moment with more family secrets. Dad's 480 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: book and the process of writing it thus become multifold. 481 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: It's a way to unpack and confront this fear, a 482 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: way to understand his dad, to understand himself, and to 483 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: reckon with the secrets that shaped them. The genesis of 484 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: writing the book. Wizard emotionally had sort of given up 485 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: on my dad and achieved a kind of like friendly, dutiful, 486 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: loving civility. You know. I felt like I tried to 487 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: get more out of him and that never really took. 488 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: So I sort of had just decided, Okay, here are 489 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: the limits, and then I sort of rubbed along in 490 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: that way, you know, thinking about him, until suddenly I realized, like, 491 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: he's he's getting old, he's falling down, he is he 492 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: needs help. And when he had his first big thing, 493 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: he went down to the hospital and talked to the 494 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: doctors and realized, like, there is a date here that's 495 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: coming where he's not going to be here. And I 496 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: think that had an effect. I think the book almost 497 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: grew out of that trip down to the hospital where 498 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: the resident was basically saying, you know, like it's a 499 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: slow or maybe even medium speed or maybe even quick, 500 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, slide from here, it's not going to get better, 501 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: and realizing that I think I was started to feel like, well, 502 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: there's only so much time to keep deferring, you know, 503 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: one last hail Mary, that maybe he can make this 504 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: all work and answer so many questions and make me 505 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: feel better about myself, because I'll say I felt if 506 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: my dads were reserving his best qualities from me, there 507 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: must be a judgment that I'm not worthy of them. 508 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: So I started to write, and I started keeping notes 509 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: and kind of drawing stuff into a file about my 510 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: dad and my memories of him, and also then also 511 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: about our our own family, like Amanda and me and 512 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: our two kids, like you know, here I am becoming 513 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: a dad myself? Am I doing in comparison to my 514 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: own stat And I did turn that book in and 515 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: then mahbe I got sicker and died, and that I 516 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: felt like I knew I needed to revise the book, 517 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: and I knew I wanted to like so I'm back 518 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: at it afresh. And then he made me his literal executor. 519 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: So I was reading through you know, we were cleaning 520 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: out of his house to sell it, and twenty big 521 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: steel file cabinets crammed with files, and there was a 522 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: whole other storage shed full of files, and there were 523 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: fouls on top of his desk and files on top 524 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: of his bureau and fills all over the floor, and 525 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: it was kind of a big mess. He's been very, 526 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: very meticulous and organized and like dow we decimal slash 527 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: alphabetical until a certain point and he kind of just 528 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: said at a bucket and sorry everybody can said everywhere 529 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: in the last like ten years of his life, and 530 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: so it really wasn't organized. And I arned maybe he 531 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: had there was a system, but I couldn't decipher it. 532 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: So I was just kind of going through it all 533 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: and never sure what, you know, what's going to turn 534 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: out to be, like tax returns from nineteen and was 535 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: going to turn out to be his poems and his 536 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: journals from nineteen sixties seven and the course of that, 537 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: and realized he was a much different man then I thought. 538 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: He was much more emotional, much more sensitive, much more 539 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: awake two and alive to life in every way. He was, 540 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, he really felt things deeply, but he the 541 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: problems he couldn't convey them to us very well or 542 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: something some kind of like I almost think of him 543 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: as like, you know, those trumpeters, and he can trumpet, 544 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: and then he like, as soon as he saw us 545 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: that the mute would come over it. I don't know why. 546 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: I think he just felt like the dad should be 547 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: the sort of regal, regal figure who um it sits 548 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: in a chair like a k throne and pronounces and 549 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: it's like, no, that's that's I don't know where you 550 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: got that. That is totally wrong. So, realizing all that, 551 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: I rewrote the book, not completely, but I you know, 552 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: I recast a lot of it, and I added all 553 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: this material, and so I had written the second version 554 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: and I wanted a manage to read it. She read it. 555 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: She was shocked about my dad's and fidelities, as I 556 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: had originally been just reading about them, because he'd written 557 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: he had tholes of his premarital affairs, lots of stuff 558 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: about erotic dreams he had, including about one of them 559 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: he had at the time and the nineties about a 560 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine, which is kind of weird to read. 561 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: You're like, what, no, then you can't see that, you know, 562 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: you're like, I wish I had, I wish I had 563 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: somehow skipped over that particular one. There's a bunch of 564 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: stuff that you know, like was candid because he did 565 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: think he was going to be writing for himself, and 566 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: without getting into all the glory details. In the second 567 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: version of the book, he had tried to convey a 568 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: much fuller, rounder, more passionate, more flawed person who you know, 569 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: more human person that he was. And Amanda, she loved 570 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: my dad and admired him, and I think she felt 571 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: disabused in reading it and felt like he treated my 572 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: mom badly. And then we're talking about it, and I 573 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: said something like I had more time with it all 574 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: and I but I said something like, you know, well, 575 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: I know what you're saying, and I hear you, but 576 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: I also think, you know, she could be tough to 577 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: which I still think it's true. Um, And I said, 578 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: I also think it was a pretty good marriage all 579 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: and all, which I also think it's true, with reservations 580 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: and that if I wouldn't want to have it be 581 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: our marriage. But Amanda, it was very emotionally sensitive somehow 582 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: picked up on what I was saying and thought I 583 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: was referring or in some coded or unconscious way, to 584 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: our our marriagers in mind and so um. When I 585 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: was out the next day, she started reading to my journals, 586 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: and she even though I thought I had you know, 587 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: when I was writing my journals, I didn't want to them, 588 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: but I didn't expect anyone to realms. So I had 589 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: written about with various degrees of candor or various degrees 590 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: of openness about I had said always. So that began 591 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: the worst period of our lives, the ways in which 592 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: I felt like I was a prisoner of my history. 593 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: There's a natural assumption that sometimes people can make that 594 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: if you know someone's having an affair in the marriage, 595 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: that they maybe they're not satisfied with their partner, or 596 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: they're not getting what they need from their partners, they're 597 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: seeking it outside the marriage. I think that is not 598 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: apply here. I had cheated on pretty much everyone before Amanda. 599 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: It was just I was built. Say I was built 600 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: makes it sound like someone else did it. I was. 601 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'm totally responsible. I'm an adult. I did 602 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: these things, cheated, I was unfaithful, I behave terribly allied. 603 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: You know that crappy, crappy horrible stuff that makes me 604 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: still feeling incredibly ashamed and mad at myself and demanded. 605 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: And I had issues in our marriage that I talked 606 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: about in the book. Even if we had had zero 607 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: issues in our marriage, even if I had been like 608 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: just overjoyed every single day, which is hard to have 609 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: any any marriage, and there was a lot of times 610 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: I really was overdover the Amanda. But even if I've 611 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: been overod all the time, I still probably would have 612 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: diated because I felt so badly about myself, and I 613 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: felt so needy, and I felt so insecure, and I 614 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, I think I was just building a compartment 615 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 1: that one more bulkhead against intimacy, full true intimacy, and 616 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: unconsciously replicating my dad, who does the same thing. But 617 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, you know, Like it's funny how 618 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: so often those secrets get passed down and some smuggled 619 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: down secretly. It's like he'd clapped me out in the 620 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: back and then slipped it into my pocket and I 621 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: didn't notice. He's like the artful dodger, and maybe his 622 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: mom didn't the same thing to him, you know, like 623 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: you don't know where you're getting it, because I didn't. 624 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: I didn't. I would have, you know, I would have 625 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 1: said if I had had to guess that he had 626 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: been impatable. But I didn't know that, and we've never 627 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: talked about it, and I never certainly would never have thought, 628 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: like I want to model myself. I'm that guy who 629 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: I can't get enough love from. That would be a mistake. 630 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: Why would I want to do that. I was trying 631 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: to be the opposite. I was trying to be like Mr. 632 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 1: Supersensitive guy. You know, I'm going to do all his therapy. 633 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: And then it turned out while he'd been doing therapy too, 634 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 1: last lats of therapy. So on the one hand, Tad 635 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: is in therapy. He's working on himself in all sorts 636 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: of ways, as did his dad. But sometimes even in therapy, 637 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: we don't go to the scariest places. It's ironic, I suppose, 638 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: But in the inner sanctum of a therapist's office, where 639 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: it's safe to expose our demons, sometimes we just don't. 640 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: The shame is too large, too looming, too terrifying. Tad 641 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: never addresses his fears about his infidelity with his therapist. 642 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: He never addresses his truths. He realizes later it this 643 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense paying a professional only to present a 644 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: fabricated version of yourself. I was never aware of how 645 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: much shame I was carrying around until and I discovered 646 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: how terribly I behaved for years in our marriage, and 647 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: then I was plunged right into this big battle of it, 648 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: and it felt really awful. And having access to the shame, 649 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: being aware of it now, like and having it pretty easily, 650 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, even talking with you now At times when 651 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about my behavior, you know, I feel that 652 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: clammy disbelieving but totally having to accept sense of shame 653 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: that this is what I did and this is how 654 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: I betrayed Amanda um and also the accompanying sense of like, 655 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,479 Speaker 1: what kind of person does that? But I also feel 656 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: like there's some there at some point which I maybe 657 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: not yet but I could see in the future where 658 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, you might it's not it's like incorporating it 659 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: so it doesn't feel like an alien part of you. 660 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: It feels like, Okay, there's the shame, and it's just 661 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's just like, Okay, there's the dog, Okay, 662 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: there's the kitchen sink. Um. It feels like a useful 663 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: thing at some point because it's like, well, I did 664 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: do that, and it's not like something that's swept over 665 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: me and possessed me. It's like part of who I was. 666 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: I will never do it again, but I know that 667 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: I had that capacity and I should be mindful of that. Well. 668 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: And you're also owning it because I mean, I don't 669 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: just mean with Amanda and with yourself, but making the 670 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: decision to to go there in this book means that 671 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: you're not sweeping anything under any rock. You're just like 672 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: no sweeping, and that, you know, strikes me as very brave, 673 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: um and necessary. If you were if you were going 674 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: to write this book, the book wouldn't be true if 675 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: you know you wrote about about days infidelities and then 676 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: pretending that it wasn't another generational layer to that. Yeah, 677 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: it felt, even when I was writing the second version 678 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: of the book like it felt that I was aware 679 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: of that I was sweeping my own behavior under the rug, 680 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: and it felt that help falls to me and wrong, 681 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: I'd like it, but I didn't. Also at that point, 682 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: I feel like, oh, well, it's a great opportunity for 683 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: me to write about this um because um, you know, 684 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: you know that would be revealing my shame to everyone, 685 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: and now I am. And you know, I would never 686 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: have done it if Amanda hadn't agreed with me that 687 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: we should, that I should do it, and hadn't wanted 688 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: me to do it, and hadn't read it and made sure, 689 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, like the last thing I would ever want 690 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: to do it. Having hurt her so badly has hurt 691 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: her more with the book. And so if she hadn't 692 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: wanted me to, I would have just helped it and 693 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: that would have been that that she did. And I 694 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: feel like Amanda has been the one who has been 695 00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: brave to like take me on again, knowing that I 696 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: was not the person that she thought it wasn't I 697 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: was living with for all those years, and that I 698 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: had unexplored rooms that she didn't know about. And I 699 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: think that's that's the big act of bravery, because she 700 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: would have been would have been perfectly reasonable and emotionally 701 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: plausible for her to say, no way, I'm out. So 702 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: I'm grateful every day that she didn't. You know, you 703 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: right towards the end of your book being exposed was 704 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: a harrowing but necessary precursor to being seen and having 705 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: those unexposed rooms be exposed, it seems like a great gift. Yeah. 706 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: It was the thing I probably most feared and before 707 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: it happened, and the thing I am most grateful for 708 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: now that it has happened. It was the great psychoanalyst 709 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: and writer Donald Winnicott, who once wrote, it is a 710 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: joy to be hidden, but disaster not to be found. 711 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: Here's Tad who has been found and found himself at last, 712 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: reading one last passage from his stirring book. But I 713 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: identified his wrongly. With those baby monkeys, I couldn't stop 714 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: thinking about them at the legettive air in my eyes 715 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: and black vertigoes. I felt the way. The feeling was 716 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: so intrusive that I stepped it into the memory hole, 717 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: or it wouldn't trouble me anymore. Now, I wonder if 718 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: given time, the monkeys would have eventually retreated to the 719 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: corners of their cages, because that's what I did. I 720 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: retreated with many a backward look. But I took the 721 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: compressed air hose with me. I'm afraid I left you 722 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 1: alone a good deal when you were young, mom said 723 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: to me once, dreadfully brightening, she added, but the result 724 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: is that you learned to read very early and now 725 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: you're a writer. Family Secrets is a production of I 726 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Molly Zachor is the story editor and Dylan 727 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: Fagan is the executive producer. If you have a family 728 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: secret you'd like to share, please leave us a voicemail 729 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our 730 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: number is one eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. 731 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram at Danny writer. 732 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to know more about the story 733 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: that inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance. For 734 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I heart 735 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 736 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: favorite shows.