1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Dear listener, a quick warning before we start. This episode 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: contains descriptions of violence and abuse. When someone who was 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: convicted of a crime is later legally cleared, usually after 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: a new evidence has brought to light, they're exonerated of 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: that crime. Now, you might think that this happens rarely, 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: that the criminal legal system doesn't make those kinds of 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: mistakes often, but that's actually not the case. Last year alone, 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: there were one hundred and twenty nine exonerations. 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: Since to eighty years in prison for rape and burglary. 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 3: Sixty four year old Ronnie Long is his name. 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 4: He has always said he was innocent. 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 5: Missouri man in prison for nearly two decades for a 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 5: murder he did not commit. 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 6: Man spent thirty two years behind bars for a murder 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 6: he did not commit. 16 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 3: First full day of freedom after twenty one years in prison. 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: For nearly a decade, the National Registry of Exonerations has 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: been maintaining the most comprehensive database of exonerations in the 19 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: United States. The database is currently compiling the names and 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: stories of nearly twenty eight hundred people going back to 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: the year nineteen eighty nine. On average, each person served 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: about ten years in prison for a crime they didn't commit. 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: From Futuro Media. It's Latino USA. I'm Maria in no 24 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: Josa today the wrongful conviction of Joseph Webster, Episode one. Exonerations, 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. These are legal terms that might not be 26 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: so easy to understand. But Latino USA producer Juliata Martinelli 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: has spent a lot of time looking at that database 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: that we've mentioned, and she's here today to talk with 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: me about this notion of wrongful convictions. So welcome to 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: Latino USA, juliet That Hi, Yeah, thank you. So right now, 31 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: twenty eight hundred people have been exonerated in some thirty years, 32 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: and that number feels like a lot. But at the 33 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: same time, when you think about how many people are 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: within the criminal legal system, how does the number really compare. 35 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 7: Well, there are nearly two million people locked up in jails, prisons, 36 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 7: and detention centers on any given day across the US. 37 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 7: The database shows people who served a short amount of 38 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 7: time and others who served decades, you know, people who 39 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 7: were sentenced to life in prison, people who were actually 40 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 7: on death row and could have been executed. What really 41 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 7: struck me, though, was that if you add up the 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 7: years each of these people spent in prison. It comes 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 7: up to nearly twenty five thousand years. Twenty five thousand years, 44 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 7: so people's lives that were wasted spend in prison unnecessarily 45 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 7: for crimes that they didn't commit. I think the most 46 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 7: important takeaway here is that even one wrongful conviction is too. 47 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Much, right absolutely, So, who are the people that are 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: being exonerated? I mean, is there anything that we know 49 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: about them from this data? In terms of who might 50 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: be most at risk for being wrongfully convicted in the United. 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 7: States, yeah, you know, the United States is the mostcarcoral 52 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 7: nation in the world, and that means the more people 53 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 7: we put in prison, the higher the potential for mistakes. 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 7: And this particularly affects people of color. Black men are 55 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 7: at the highest risk because we know that they're over 56 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 7: policed and more likely to be arrested and convicted than 57 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 7: any other group. In terms of wrongful convictions, Black men 58 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 7: are nearly seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted 59 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 7: of murder than white men. How it affects Latinos is 60 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 7: a little harder to explain. You know, Statistics of wrongful 61 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 7: convictions of Latinos are inconsistent because of the ways that 62 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 7: different jurisdictions label race and ethnicity, So in some places, 63 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 7: Latinos might simply be labeled as white or black. What 64 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 7: we do know, though, is that Latino men are at 65 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 7: least one and a half times more likely than white 66 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 7: men to be arrested for the same crimes. 67 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: So when it comes to the issue of imprisonment, we 68 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: see these inequalities, right, But it's also appearing on the 69 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: issue of wrongful convictions. I mean, I guess that shouldn't 70 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: be so surprising, right. 71 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 7: That's an excellent point. And what is even more startling 72 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 7: is that experts tell us that the real numbers are 73 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 7: likely far higher because we simply don't know how many 74 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 7: innocent people are actually in prison. We only know how 75 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 7: many people have been able to prove that they weren't 76 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 7: guilty after they were already convicted. 77 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: All right, well, this feels like a really massive problem 78 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: and a massive institution to kind of challenge. So what 79 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: do people do. I mean, you have the numbers, you 80 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: have the knowledge that the false convictions are in fact 81 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: a real problem in the criminal legal system. So what's 82 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: actually being done to address this? 83 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 7: Well, for years, law and social justice organizations like the 84 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 7: Innocence Project and a number of law clinics have been 85 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 7: trying to right some of these wrongs. You know, they're 86 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 7: actively working to reopen cases and conducting research into how 87 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 7: these exonerations happened in the first place. And as more 88 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 7: of these cases have come to light, social pressure has 89 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 7: mounted on elected officials, and this has really spurned a 90 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 7: number of initiatives within the criminal legal system to try 91 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 7: and address some of these failings. One of those initiatives 92 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 7: are conviction review units. They're also called conviction integrity units, 93 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 7: and these are special teams that are housed inside district 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 7: attorney's offices and they're tasked with reviewing old cases for 95 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 7: potential miscarriages of justice. 96 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: So are these conviction review units? How effective are they being? 97 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 7: Actually, that's a question I've been trying to answer since 98 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 7: twenty seventeen when I first started reporting on the case 99 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 7: of Joseph Webster in Nashville, Tennessee. And the answer, well, 100 00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 7: it's not so straightforward. 101 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: All right, we did that. You're gonna answer that question 102 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: and more as you pick up the story from here. 103 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 7: It was April of two thousand and five, and Joseph 104 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 7: Webster had been sitting in a Tennessee State prison for 105 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 7: nearly three years. He was serving a thirteen year sentence 106 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 7: for selling cocaine. Joseph said he had a chance to 107 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 7: go up for parole. He was hoping to go home early. 108 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 7: He was twenty six years old at the time. And 109 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 7: then things took a drastic turn. Joseph was notified he 110 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 7: was being charged with the murder of a man named 111 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 7: Leroy Owens, someone that he said he had never met 112 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 7: in Tennessee. That meant he was facing a life sentence 113 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 7: or even the death penalty. 114 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: Oh, it was. It was heartbreaking. 115 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 4: Many of my family and them were with. 116 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 8: My Cheese was prepared for me to come. 117 00:06:54,279 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 4: Home and as he were a life suitance, I don't want. 118 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 9: To say that. 119 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 7: Leroy Owens was killed in November nineteen ninety eight, when 120 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 7: Joseph was just nineteen years old, several years before he 121 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 7: went to prison for selling drugs. LeRoy's murder was brutal. 122 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 7: He was beaten over the head with the cinder blocks 123 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 7: several times. The case remained unsolved for seven years. The 124 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 7: moment after hearing the news is a blur to Joseph. 125 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 7: Not only was he not going to go home, he 126 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 7: now had to prepare for a trial behind bars, he 127 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 7: thought of his three young sons and his mom, Marie Burns, 128 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 7: who had been waiting patiently for his release. 129 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 9: You know, he called me, He said, Mom, are they 130 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 9: trying to say I kill some bad I said, kill somebod? 131 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 9: I said, Joseph, ain't you He's that I didn't do it. 132 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 9: He's sad I did not do that. 133 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 7: Marie said she will never forget the day Joseph called her. 134 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 7: That was the moment, she said, she lost her own freedom. 135 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 7: I met Marie and her dog JJ in person for 136 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 7: the first time in December twenty seventeen. 137 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: Hi, who are you? 138 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 7: I was visiting her home in North Nashville. 139 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 9: Hey. 140 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 7: Inside her home was beautiful, decorated with bright colors and 141 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 7: flowers on the end tables. I was immediately struck by 142 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 7: the photos. They were everywhere, on the mantle, on shelves, 143 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 7: on the walls, everywhere. One of them looked older than 144 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 7: the others. Marie told me it was a photo of 145 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 7: her three sons when they were boys, Kenny, the oldest, Arthur, 146 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 7: and Joseph. Marie said she became a widow when Joseph 147 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 7: was just a toddler. She said, her husband was murdered 148 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 7: just yards from her front door. 149 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 9: I raised my kids the Pride and sell A Court, 150 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 9: but after joseph Daddy got killed out there, I moved. 151 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 9: I didn't want my kids in that kind of environment, 152 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 9: so I moved to Ballam and for them and I 153 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 9: worked two jobs. I took cam. They didn't want for nothing. 154 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 9: They ate every time they supposed to have been eating, 155 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 9: and they was good kids. 156 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 4: They was good kids. 157 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 7: It was hard for her. Working multiple jobs meant that 158 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 7: she wasn't around as often as she wanted to be, 159 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 7: and she had to miss important moments in her kids' lives, 160 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 7: like Joseph's football games. On a call. Joseph later told 161 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 7: me that he played football in high school. He was 162 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 7: on the starting team and he was really good, but 163 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 7: there was never anyone there to cheer for him. Every 164 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 7: time he looked up at the stands, he says, he 165 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 7: felt alone. 166 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 6: It's like when you don't have the support that to 167 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 6: me as. 168 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 9: A child, mental support in most little and physics. 169 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 4: If you don't have that type of support, like you going. 170 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 9: To deteriorate from You're not going to have the same 171 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 9: interest as you had into this sport. 172 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 7: Marie said, that she hoped that by providing financial stability 173 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 7: and the opportunities that she hadn't been afforded, that her 174 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 7: children would understand her absence, and for a while things 175 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 7: worked out. Marie said that her children were caring and 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 7: well mannered, but Joseph struggled without his father and his 177 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 7: mother's absence. Eventually he stopped playing ball, and then he 178 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 7: also stopped going to school, and he turned to his 179 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 7: oldest brother Kenny, as a role model. 180 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: Like honestly. 181 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 7: Looked up to my brother. He was a father figure too. 182 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 7: Kenny was flashy, he had this way about him. Everyone 183 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 7: I spoke with talked about how charming he could be, 184 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 7: and people respected him. Joseph said. Kenny at the time 185 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 7: was stealing cocaine, and Joseph started doing the same. He 186 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 7: was about seventeen years old. Then Joseph was still a teenager. 187 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 7: When he became a dad and then came two more children. 188 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 7: He wasn't engaged and loving father to his boys. 189 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: He's born very tight. 190 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 4: I tried to be the father feel that I came 191 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 4: to them. 192 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 7: When Joseph was twenty one years old, he got picked 193 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 7: up for selling drugs and sentenced to state prison. He 194 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 7: said the hardest part about going to prison was being 195 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 7: separated from his children. 196 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 9: It was. 197 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 8: Definitely a whole pill of swallow. 198 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 5: I believe them be hand to wash them grow up, 199 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 5: to wash them coor visibly to leave me. 200 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 7: And when I said with here, they grew up even 201 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 7: more than what they were. And that's where he was 202 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 7: five years later, where the story picks up. After counting 203 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 7: down the days to go home, he was unexpectedly going 204 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 7: to try for murder, a murder he knew he didn't commit. 205 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 7: At Joseph's trial, the jury heard a dramatic story. It 206 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 7: was November twenty second, nineteen ninety eight, and Leroy Owens, 207 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 7: the victim, spent the night at Tammy Nelson's house. Tammy 208 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 7: was a frequent drug user, and transcripts of the trial 209 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 7: say her home was known in the neighborhood as a 210 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 7: place to get high. On that morning, Tammy woke up 211 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 7: and called the phone number she had scribbled on a 212 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 7: sheet of paper. A trial, she said two men had 213 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 7: come to her house several times earlier looking for Leroy 214 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 7: and asked her to call them when Leroy was around. 215 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 7: The victim allegedly owed them money for drugs that morning, 216 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 7: the men showed up at the house and assaulted Leroy, 217 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 7: but he managed to run out. They chased them in 218 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 7: a white station wagon. Leroy ended up at a construction 219 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 7: site and he was cornered. One of the men hit 220 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 7: him over the head with the cinder block several times. 221 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 7: Leroy died on the scene. For years, LeRoy's family took 222 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 7: out ads in the daily newspaper for his birthday and 223 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 7: remembering the anniversary of his death, but the investigation of 224 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 7: his murder seemed to go nowhere. There were no arrests. 225 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 7: Joseph was never interviewed. The case went cold, that is 226 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 7: until two thousand and five, when the Davison County District 227 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 7: Attorney's office charged Joseph with LeRoy's murder. At trial, the 228 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 7: case against Joseph rested on one key witness, Tammy Nelson, 229 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 7: the woman who had called the two men. Tammy didn't 230 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 7: actually witness the murder, but she picked Joseph out of 231 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 7: a lineup, identifying him as one of the two men 232 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 7: who had come to her house looking for LeRoi. There 233 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 7: were only two other people who saw part of the 234 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 7: assault and give statements to police. They both described black 235 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 7: men between one hundred and seventy five and two hundred 236 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 7: and thirty pounds. Neither description matched Joseph, who at the 237 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 7: time was five nine and three hundred pounds, and there 238 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 7: was also no physical or forensic evidence tying Joseph to 239 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 7: the crime. The bloody cinder block had been taken into evidence, 240 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 7: but it was never tested for DNA, but prosecutors said 241 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 7: they could place Joseph at the scene of the crime. 242 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 7: They said Joseph drove a white station wagon like the 243 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 7: one that had chased the victim. On the stand, Joseph 244 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 7: and his lawyer refuted their claims. Joseph insisted he did 245 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 7: not kill LeRoi, but there was something else that he 246 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 7: was keeping to himself. 247 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 4: I knew I wasn't no one to tea well for 248 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 4: growing up. 249 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: You don't get off the people piz somebody you'll. 250 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: Zins and you keep it moving. 251 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 4: So this part of what happened. 252 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 7: Joseph later told me that at the time he knew 253 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 7: the person who had actually committed the murder, and so 254 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 7: did several others, including Joseph's mother Marie, But at trial 255 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 7: and understand no one said a word. Joseph figured how 256 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 7: could he be found guilty of something he didn't do. 257 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 7: That's why the guilty verdict came at such a shock. 258 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 9: So I. 259 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 6: Was you know, oh, I just could. 260 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 7: Marie said she could still feel that moment, the way 261 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 7: her legs gave out, the way she suddenly felt like 262 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 7: she was drowning. She ran out of the courtroom. She 263 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 7: was looking for Joseph's lawyer, for the prosecutor, for anyone 264 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 7: who would listen to what she desperately needed to say. 265 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 7: She saw the victim's family first, and. 266 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 4: Did I tell the person family? 267 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 9: I'm silent that my all of a sudden did the 268 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 9: crab but my baby boyd and yeah. 269 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 4: Of the world. 270 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 7: Maybe, Marie says she knew it wasn't Joseph who killed 271 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 7: the roy because she knew that the murderer was her 272 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 7: oldest son Kenny. 273 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: Coming up on that, you know, USA. Joseph spends years 274 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: in prison fighting for his freedom, and then he meets 275 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: a lawyer who wants to take his case to a 276 00:16:32,320 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: new conviction review unit. Stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back, 277 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: And before the break, we met Joseph Webster. He's a 278 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: black man from Nashville, Tennessee, who had just been sentenced 279 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: to life in prison for a murder he didn't commit. 280 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: Joseph said he shouldn't be in prison because the real 281 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: killer was his brother Kenny. That the Know USA producer 282 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: Julia Ta Martinelli is going to pick up the story 283 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: from here. 284 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 7: A few months after the trial, Joseph Webster was sentenced 285 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 7: to life in prison. In the years to come, Joseph's mother, Marie, 286 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 7: tried to hold on to hope. Things were hard. She 287 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 7: was struggling emotions, working late into the evenings to save 288 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 7: money for lawyers, and taking weekly trips with her grandkids 289 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 7: to visit Joseph in prison. Sometimes the trips took hours 290 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 7: each way. Incarcerated people are often moved around the state 291 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 7: to different penitentiaries, and Joseph was no exception. 292 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 9: And Joseph and got a lived since he was twenty 293 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 9: two and now he's thirty eight. And I go visit 294 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 9: them and they air peloton today. I don't send them too. 295 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 7: But Marie continued to make the drive because she didn't 296 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 7: want his children to forget the way their father smiled, 297 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 7: or what it was like to look each other in 298 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 7: the eyes when they spoke. 299 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 9: And I hate going up there. I hate it up 300 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 9: every time I leave a c all the way home. 301 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,719 Speaker 7: Marie said, when she went to prison and set across 302 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 7: from Joseph and his baggy blue uniform in the visiting room, 303 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 7: she put on a brave front, but the truth is 304 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 7: she felt like she was locked up in their way 305 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 7: with him. But Marie held on to her faith, and 306 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 7: in two thousand and nine, three years after Joseph's conviction, 307 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 7: there was a flicker of hope. 308 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 9: My son author. He said, Uh, Tammy won't to holler 309 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 9: at you. And I said, tam it and he said yeah. 310 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 9: I said, don't you bring out of my house. He said, Mama, 311 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 9: she got something she needs to tell you, very important. 312 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 9: And she said, Miss Marie, I am so sold that. 313 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 9: I said jose was the one that did And she said, 314 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 9: I just wanted to make things right. I want to 315 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 9: tell them that he wanted to warm it was your 316 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 9: other son. 317 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 7: Marie thought, this is it. She got a lawyer and 318 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 7: had Timey give a statement. In it, Tommy said she 319 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 7: identified the wrong man, but at a hearing, Tommy backtracked 320 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 7: her statement, and in twenty fourteen, five years later, Marie 321 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 7: said that Tommy returned to her home. Why do you 322 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 7: think that Nelson came to you after all? 323 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 4: That time because. 324 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 9: Her son or something had just graduated and he went 325 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 9: out and he got killed. Let me read, and she 326 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 9: said she felt so bad about it, and she thought, 327 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 9: you know about her lad, that's what caused us so 328 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 9: to get killed. 329 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 7: Marisad Tommy told her that she was clean now and 330 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 7: she wanted to make things right. She gave another statement. 331 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 7: This time she dropped a bombshell. She said when she 332 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 7: first identified Joseph at trial, she was facing prison time 333 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 7: for drugs, and prosecutors offered her a deal if she 334 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 7: said she recognized him. When she was put under oath, 335 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 7: Tommy once again walked back her statement. She said there 336 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 7: was never any deal because Tommy had changed her story 337 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 7: so many times. The court determined that she was a 338 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 7: quote unreliable witness, and they threw out her testimony. 339 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 9: But they said her word wasn't no good, said, they 340 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,239 Speaker 9: don't know if she's lying, lying or what. Okay, But 341 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 9: you took her word the first time and send my 342 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 9: son away. What makes you think her word was good? 343 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 9: Then it's messed up. 344 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 7: Marie said she warn't Timmy to never come back near 345 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 7: her home again, and she went back to praying and waiting. 346 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 7: Two years later In twenty sixteen, attorney Daniel Horwitz read 347 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 7: a petition written by Joseph Webster. He was struck by 348 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 7: how little evidence was used to convict them. In the 349 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 7: same year, the Davidson County District Attorney's office had just 350 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 7: announced a new unit inside its office. It was called 351 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 7: a conviction review unit. This was a progressive move at 352 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 7: the time. There were less than thirty units like this 353 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 7: in the whole country. Conviction review units, also known as 354 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 7: CRUs or conviction integrity units, are housed inside district attorney's offices, 355 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 7: and they're created voluntarily by prosecutors to review potential miscarriages 356 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 7: of justice when there are no more legal options. They 357 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 7: can review new evidence, reopen investigations, and potentially even release 358 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 7: people from prison. At least that's the goal, and they're 359 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 7: sorely needed because data tell us that the justice system 360 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 7: is flawed, and those flaws impact some people more than others. 361 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 6: Anything that makes you more vulnerable as a citizen is 362 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 6: going to make you more vulnerable to. 363 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 7: The possibility of a false conviction. Barbara O'Brien is a 364 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 7: professor of Michigan State University College of Law. She's the 365 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 7: editor of the National Registry of Exonerations where she tracks 366 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 7: wrongful convictions across the country. 367 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 6: Can happen to anybody, but it's going to happen the 368 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 6: most to the people who are most vulnerable. Right, So 369 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 6: if you think about right, if you are a person 370 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 6: of color and are more likely to be stopped and 371 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 6: frisked than a white person, then you're more likely to 372 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 6: be the victim. 373 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 4: So you've got all these different. 374 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 6: Forces that are at work, and there any sort of 375 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 6: bias or disadvantage that comes from being a person of 376 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 6: color in America is just amplified. 377 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 7: The US has an incarceration problem, and that problem is 378 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 7: much more likely to affect people of color, and this 379 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 7: overrepresentation is also present in wrongful convictions. But how bad 380 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 7: the problem is, we just don't know, because there's no 381 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 7: way to quantify how many innocent people are actually in prison. 382 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 6: We don't know what we don't know. We have some hypotheses, 383 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 6: we have some suspicions, but we can only study the 384 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 6: case that we learn about. I guess the analogy would 385 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 6: be if we were trying to understand what causes planes 386 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 6: to crash, but we didn't know about all the plane crashes, right, Like, 387 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 6: how do you figure out what kind of generalizable knowledge 388 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 6: can you pull from it if you don't even know 389 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 6: the universe of cases you're dealing with. 390 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 7: Barbara adds that prosecutors are under a lot of pressure 391 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 7: to close cases, particularly cold cases like that of Leroy. 392 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 7: After all, prosecutors are the ones who have to face 393 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 7: the victim's families, and they're tasked. We're providing accountability, She says. 394 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 7: Many times those mistakes are purely accidental, and for the 395 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 7: most part, people want to make things right. That's why 396 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 7: CRUs were invented in the first place. They ideally offer 397 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 7: a mechanism to address those mistakes, to make overturning convictions 398 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 7: an easier and faster process. 399 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 6: These are really popular with voters. Nobody's in favor of 400 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 6: convicting somebody who's innocent, and it's really hard to deny 401 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 6: that that has happened. And that's problem that it isn't 402 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 6: just a fluke, right, that it's a fairly systemic problem. 403 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 6: So I think that elected prosecutors are recognizing that this 404 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 6: is something that people can get behind. 405 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 7: With all of that in mind, and hoping that the 406 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 7: cru would be the fastest way to secure Joseph's freedom. 407 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 7: Daniel decided to take on Joseph's case. 408 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 3: In this case, it was immediately clear reviewing its procedural history, 409 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: the effects of it, and everything that had happened, it 410 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 3: was clear that it was different. 411 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 7: Daniel' said. Wrongful convictions are some of the toughest cases 412 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 7: to take on. But the lawyer hoped if he could 413 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 7: uncover new evidence of Joseph's innocence, that the CRU would 414 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 7: agree to take a second look, and it was the 415 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 7: last ditch effort for Joseph. If the CRU denied his petition, 416 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 7: Joseph would spend the rest of his life in prison. 417 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 7: Daniel first focused on getting the weapon tested for DNA. 418 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 3: The murder weapon was a cinderblock. It was, by many 419 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 3: witness accounts, smashed over the victim's head repeatedly and caused 420 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: his death. It was caked in blood. It was sitting 421 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 3: in an evidence locker for many years after mister Webster's conviction, 422 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: but no at the time of his trial, nobody thought 423 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: to test it. Neither the district attorney nor mister Webster's 424 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 3: defense team decided to test it for DNA. I can't 425 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 3: possibly explain why. 426 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 7: Joseph wondered the same thing for many years when he 427 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 7: was in prison. So when he learned that Tennessee had 428 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 7: a post conviction statute that would allow him to petition 429 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 7: the state to go back and test the murder weapon, 430 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 7: he taught himself how to do the paperwork. But Daniel 431 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 7: said Joseph's testing petition was denied, and that's where Joseph 432 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 7: was when he took on the case. First things first, 433 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 7: Daniel the lawyer sets out to figure out how to 434 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 7: pay the thirty six thousand dollars they needed to DNA 435 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 7: test the murder weapon. Thirty six thousand dollars. That's how 436 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 7: much it would cost Joseph to test the one item 437 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 7: that might prove his innocence, nearly impossible for someone representing 438 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 7: himself to afford. Joseph said that he felt like he 439 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 7: was being punished for being poor, and Joseph is not 440 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 7: the only one. The criminal legal system is far from 441 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 7: blind to affluence. In fact, finances can be a strong 442 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 7: barrier to justice. Low income people are disproportionately present in 443 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 7: the criminal legal system and wrongful convictions. Again, Barbara O'Brien 444 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 7: from the National Registry of Exonerations. 445 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 6: The people with more resources are going to be in 446 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 6: a better position. He even starts at the very beginning 447 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 6: of the process, right, like, can you make bail? You know, 448 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 6: if you're in if you are charged with an offense 449 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 6: that allows for pre trial release, you know, having the 450 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 6: financial means to be free while you're awaiting trial, that 451 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 6: helps you assist with the defense. That makes it less 452 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 6: likely that you're going to take a plea deal just 453 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 6: to end the situation. 454 00:27:58,600 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 8: Right. 455 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 6: And then there's also so there are some public defenders 456 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 6: offices in this country that are just absolutely outstanding. I mean, 457 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 6: they're doing amazing work. But there's places where Council for 458 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 6: indigen Defendants is sorely under resource. 459 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 7: After an appeal, in most states, incarcerated people no longer 460 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 7: have access to public defenders, leaving them to manage the 461 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 7: rest of their cases on their own. But this time 462 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 7: Joseph was not alone anymore. Daniel, now with approval for 463 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 7: DNA testing in hand, set out to secure funding, and 464 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 7: it was the Innocence Project who finally agreed to foot 465 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 7: the bill. While the brake was sent off to get tested, 466 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 7: Daniel decided he needed to hire an investigator. He hired 467 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 7: Ken Dyer, a recently retired Nashville Police Department detective. Ken 468 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 7: wasn't part of the team that investigated LeRoy's murder, but 469 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 7: he had a lot of experience. 470 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 8: A tremble and play runner, and this is considered that's 471 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 8: more or less central central part of Nashville. 472 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 7: I met Kent in the parking lot of Nashville Public Radio, 473 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 7: where I worked when I first started reporting this story. 474 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 7: He pulled up in a huge truck and he asked 475 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 7: if I wanted to hop on and check out the 476 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 7: scene of the crime. Does it look like it probably 477 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 7: looked in ninety eight or has it. 478 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 8: Changed changed much? There's you know, some of these houses 479 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 8: have been refurbished, but for the most part, it's still 480 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 8: pretty consistent. 481 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 7: In the car, I got a better look at Ken. 482 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 7: He was tall, with broad shoulders and strong arms. He 483 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 7: was bald and wore these dark sunglasses. He looked like 484 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 7: a cop. 485 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 8: And this is the projects and it's always it's always 486 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 8: crowded around here. Which when I was a narcotics I 487 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 8: used to buy dope den it here. Yeah, from the 488 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 8: top time, the street level narcotics. 489 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 7: After years working undercover in narcotics, Ken became a detective 490 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 7: and investigated dozens of murders. Now retired, This was his 491 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 7: first murder case as a private investigator for the defense, 492 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 7: but Ken didn't really see it as working for the 493 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 7: other side. 494 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 9: It was. 495 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 8: It was hard for me to town to get my 496 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 8: head around someone being in prison for that long for 497 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 8: something that they didn't do, and convincing myself that that 498 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 8: was a distinct possibility. Because having benakop for thirty five years, 499 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 8: I always tried to make sure you know there was 500 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 8: probable cause and that the case lines up before you 501 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 8: start arresting people. 502 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 7: The first thing he did was to try and reinterview witnesses. 503 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 7: So he went back to the two men who gave 504 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 7: the statements used in Joseph's trial, and then in a 505 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 7: file provided by the prosecutor's office, he found the name 506 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 7: of two more men that Joseph's first lawyer had never 507 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 7: called to the stand. He tracked them down. Both described 508 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 7: the attacker as a thin black man, which didn't correspond 509 00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 7: with Joseph's description. 510 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 8: So the more we looked at it, I became convinced. 511 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 8: It probably took me a week or two to really 512 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 8: get on board and say that you know, all right, 513 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 8: there's this isn't. 514 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 7: The right gun, but the most damning evidence can found. 515 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 7: Came back to Joseph's gold teeth. Joseph has a really 516 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 7: prominent smile. He's got implanet gold teeth with his initials 517 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 7: in the front. But his lawyer, Daniel, said, none of 518 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 7: the witnesses, now four people plus Tammy, had ever described 519 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 7: the attacker having gold teeth. 520 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 3: As Nelson, the eyewitness who identified him, said that she 521 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 3: had seen the perpetrators several times in the daylight up close, 522 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 3: and she made very clear that they did not have 523 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 3: gold teeth, neither one of them, and that she would 524 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 3: sure remember gold. 525 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 4: That was the statement that she made. 526 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 7: But at trial no one asked Tommy any questions about 527 00:31:53,520 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 7: this discrepancy in her description. Daniel said this was a 528 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 7: big oversight and it should have been taken more seriously 529 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,479 Speaker 7: at trial. Even if Tammy did not willingly misidentify Joseph, 530 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 7: experts warn that eyewitness identification is simply not reliable. In fact, 531 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 7: it's the leading cost of wrongful convictions, according to data 532 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 7: compiled by the Innocence Project. The reasons are many, but 533 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 7: it mostly centers around how fickle our memory actually is, 534 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 7: and at times how easy it is for police to 535 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 7: use small visual cues that suggests to someone that they 536 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 7: recognize a person that they actually don't. That's why finding 537 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 7: these two new witnesses it mattered a lot. And then 538 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 7: Ken the investigator met Shajuana. 539 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 5: My name is Shuana Norman and I am the sister 540 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 5: of Katrina Norman, Joseph Webster's ex wife. I've known Joseph 541 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 5: since I was I think fifteen. We've known their family 542 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 5: because my sisters been with him, had been with him forever, 543 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 5: and me and Kenny like missed around, had a relationship. 544 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 7: Kenny, Joseph's older brother, was married at the time, but 545 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 7: he was also dating Shijuana. On the side. 546 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 5: Kenny was a psychopath. He was pure evil. He would 547 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 5: turn the stove on and on high and make his 548 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 5: wife sit on it. He would take a bar of 549 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 5: soap in a sock and hit her with it. He 550 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 5: would do all types of stuff to her in front 551 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 5: of us. And I don't know if it was to 552 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 5: make us fear him or what it was, but like 553 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 5: we were young, so we never said anything about it. 554 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 5: I just knew not to cross him. 555 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 7: One night, Shauana said, Kenny brigged about a brutal attack 556 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 7: on somebody who had owed him money for drugs. 557 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 5: He never told me that he killed the guy. He 558 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 5: just told me he had to beat the shit out 559 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 5: of him with the brick. 560 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 7: Jajuanna says she never forgot because it scared her so much. 561 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 5: Later on down the line, we didn't put two and 562 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 5: two together, but when the Joseph was charged with the murder, 563 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 5: we knew who it was because the guy was beat 564 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 5: to death with the brick. And it was enduring the 565 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 5: time that Kenny had the white station wagon and that 566 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 5: night he had come to my grandmother's house and tried 567 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 5: to switch cars and leave the station wagging down there. 568 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 5: And I don't know why you would commit a murder 569 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 5: and then bring the vehicle you committed a murder into 570 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 5: our house. I don't know why. 571 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 7: Shajuana says she knew all of this when Joseph was 572 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 7: sitting on the stand. She was there in the courtroom 573 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 7: with Joseph's finally and Joseph's previous lawyer, Mickey. 574 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 5: When they found Joseph guilty that day, when we were 575 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 5: walking in the parking lot and we're telling Mickey, hey, Micky, 576 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 5: Joseph didn't do this. You know Kenny did, and it's 577 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 5: just it's just unfortunate. The way things turned out. 578 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 7: Somebody listening Mike think like, well, if they knew it 579 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 7: was Kenny and then you Joseph was a child, why 580 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 7: didn't they just say it was Kenny. 581 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 5: We figured that there's no way possible on God's green 582 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 5: Earth that they can find Joseph guilty of a crime 583 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 5: that he didn't commit, a crime that he had nothing 584 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 5: to do with at all. 585 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 4: And we were wrong. We were wrong. 586 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 7: Why did you protect Kenny? 587 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 5: For one, because Kenny is a is a killer too, 588 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 5: Because we were scared, because Kenny has killed more than 589 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 5: one person, and it's I didn't want to be one 590 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 5: of his victims. And if the private detective and the 591 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 5: attorney hadn't contacted me, it still would have went to 592 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 5: my grave with me. Because I tried to contact the 593 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 5: District Attorney's office some years later and let them know, Hey, 594 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 5: this is what's going on. 595 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 4: They didn't care. 596 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 5: They didn't want to hear what I had to say, so, 597 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 5: you know, I just kept quiet. 598 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 7: But Shawana told Ken she could prove what she knew 599 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 7: about Kenny killing more than one person. She shared details 600 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 7: about another murder, a man that she says Kenny killed 601 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 7: in the early two thousands, and whose body he dropped 602 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 7: in Chattanooga at the Tennessee Georgia border, two hours south 603 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 7: of Nashville. Daniel joseph lawyer was shocked when he heard 604 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 7: about this murder, so he contacted the District Attorney's office 605 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 7: in Chattanooga. 606 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 3: She remembers seeing the blood in the back of his car. 607 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 3: She remembers him talking about how that murder was committed 608 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 3: as well. We not only found a murder that fit 609 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 3: the description, we found the cold case on it and 610 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 3: mister Neil's name, Kenny is in the cold case report 611 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 3: from this murder. 612 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 7: I reached out to Keny for comment, but he didn't reply. 613 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: Coming up on Lettino, USA, Joseph Webster's lawyer gets ready 614 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: to present his findings to the conviction Review Unit and 615 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: feels confident about the possibility of Joseph's case getting reopened. 616 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: But will he get the answer he expects? Stay with us, yes, 617 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: he We're back. Before the break, Joseph's legal team had 618 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: mounting evidence of his innocence and they were preparing to 619 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: submit it to the Nashville Conviction Review Unit in hopes 620 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: of securing Joseph's release. Latio USA producer Julieta Martinelli is 621 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: going to pick up this story from here. 622 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 7: After many months of waiting, the DNA results from the 623 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 7: center block used to kill Leroy finally came back. 624 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 3: We tested it on all sorts of places where it 625 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 3: would have been handled or would most likely have been 626 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 3: handled by the person wielding it. Each one of those 627 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 3: places that we tested resulted in at least a partially 628 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 3: testable sample. It is pretty clear that it is the 629 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 3: same person on every one of those places, and that 630 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 3: person is not Joseph Webster. 631 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 7: Daniel thought, this is it the final piece of evidence. 632 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 7: There was no way Joseph could stay in prison now, 633 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 7: so Daniel set out to submit all of this new 634 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 7: information in a petition to the conviction Review Unit. He 635 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 7: was feeling more confident than ever. The CRU review process 636 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 7: in Nashville has a number of layers, but at the time, 637 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 7: it started with a review of a petition by the 638 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 7: prosecutors who made up the CRU They could decide to 639 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 7: take up the case for reinvestigation, basically starting an internal 640 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 7: fact checking. If that step found any new information, then 641 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 7: the case could move forward to the next step and 642 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 7: potentially be reopened. When Daniel filed Joseph's petition in March 643 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 7: twenty seventeen, Nashville's Conviction Review Unit was less than a 644 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 7: year old. Daniel thought this was the perfect case for it. 645 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 7: Plenty of new evidence and they even knew who the 646 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 7: real killer was. That was rare, And then Joseph's application 647 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 7: got denied. It didn't even make it to the first 648 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 7: level with all the evidence presented. Daniels said, the cru 649 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 7: determined it wasn't even worth reinvestigating the most basic of processes. 650 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 3: Why mister Webster is in prison is a product of 651 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 3: a criminal justice system that is more concerned with finality 652 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 3: of convictions than the reliability of convictions. 653 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 7: The review unit argued that they're only authorized to review 654 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 7: new information, so Joseph's argument that he and others knew 655 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 7: who the killer was wasn't considered new evidence because Joseph 656 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 7: alleges that he already knew this at his trial and 657 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,280 Speaker 7: it was his choice to withhold it. And the DNA well, 658 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 7: they said the negative match didn't actually reveal a new suspect, 659 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 7: and since they didn't consider Kenny a suspect, they couldn't 660 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 7: legally compel him to submit himself to a DNA test. 661 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 7: Daniel couldn't believe the decision. I stopped by Marie's house 662 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 7: shortly after. She was nervous waiting for Joseph to call. 663 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 7: She wondered if his lawyer had already contacted him to 664 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 7: give him the disappointing news from the review unit. She 665 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 7: says she just couldn't understand. Why not reinvestigate the case 666 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 7: at minimum? Why couldn't the unit just to the job 667 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 7: it was designed to do. 668 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 9: What do we need to do? Since you can't he 669 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 9: can't make no decisions. We need to do something. He 670 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 9: don't need to sit no more law than in else, 671 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 9: then he have to. I think he does said long 672 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 9: enough for something he didn't do. 673 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 7: Marie wondered what else could she possibly do. She told 674 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 7: me that for years she had tried to solve this 675 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 7: on her own. Shortly after Joseph's conviction, Marie said she 676 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 7: even tried to get her oldest son, Kenny, to confess 677 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 7: to the murder on a hidden recorder. 678 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 8: Oh. 679 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 9: I was lay it on a couch and I had 680 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 9: a little recorder thing like that in a flyer because 681 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 9: I was go recall him. I said, what you're gonna 682 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 9: do about Cholser? And he said, Mom, I done told 683 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 9: you don't worry about Jillson. I said, well, you need 684 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 9: to do something. So he got up, said he said, well, 685 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 9: Mam just finished. I don't wanna talk about it, and 686 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 9: he left. That was the first time that I approached 687 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 9: him about that. 688 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 4: And he urged me to my heart for me. 689 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 9: To carry a child for nine months and this child 690 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 9: tell me he don't care nothing about me, and he 691 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 9: don't care nothing about Chase. 692 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 7: And then Maurice Payne turned into fear. Marie said she 693 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,760 Speaker 7: began to ride around in her car with a note 694 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 7: talked between her seat and the console. The note said, 695 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,879 Speaker 7: if anything happens to me, it was my son. 696 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 9: Kenny look at the mother at the ride around scared, 697 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,760 Speaker 9: you know, because he don't care about note man. 698 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 7: Marie said she never wanted to have to be the 699 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 7: one responsible for putting one of her children in prison, 700 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 7: but the justice system gave her no choice. 701 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 4: What mother, Donna get up? 702 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 9: I'm gonna stand and testify against one child about another child. 703 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 4: What mother doing said? All I wanted was the truth 704 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 4: to come out. 705 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: The story doesn't end here. Next week will follow Joseph 706 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: as he takes on the fight of his life, We 707 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: dig into why conviction review units are flawed to and 708 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: what the long term effects of wrongful convictions can be, 709 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: and finally, a phone call that reignites hope. 710 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:28,280 Speaker 7: We feel good. 711 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 2: Oh we're downtown right now. 712 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 9: I'm getting ready to have my dada released in about 713 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 9: thirty minutes. 714 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Julia Ta Martinelli and edited 715 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: by Marta Martinez. Fact checking for this episode by Ben Kaelin. 716 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: The Latino USA team includes Died Macias, Andrea Lopez Crusado, 717 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: Gini montalbo, Alejandra salasad Reinaldo, Leanos Junior, and Julia Rocha, 718 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: with help from Raoul Berez. Our engineers are Stephanie Vbau, 719 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: Julia Caruso, and Leah Shaw. Our digital editor is Luis Luna. 720 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,280 Speaker 1: Our New York Women's Foundation Ignite fellow is Mari Esquinka. 721 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: Our intern is Oscar de Leon. Our theme music was 722 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,319 Speaker 1: composed by Segne Robinos. If you like the music you 723 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: heard on this episode, stop by Latinousa dot org and 724 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: check out our weekly Spotify playlist. I'm your host and 725 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: executive producer Maria no Josa join us again on our 726 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: next episode and in the meantime, find us on social media. 727 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 2: Jao Latino USA is made possible in part by the 728 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 2: Heising Simons Foundation, unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities. More at 729 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 2: hsfoundation dot org. 730 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 4: W K. 731 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 2: Kellogg Foundation, a partner with Communities where Children Come First, 732 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 2: and the wind Coat Foundation. 733 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Noojosa. Next Time on Latino USA one of 734 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,760 Speaker 1: our How I Made It segments with the band from Uruguay, Noeusta. 735 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: That's next time on Latino USA.