1
00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,600
Speaker 1: This is a hard one for me to even talk

2
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:09,720
Speaker 1: about because John Agrian Alasquez is someone who I consider

3
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,360
Speaker 1: well more than a close friend, I consider him extended family.

4
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,480
Speaker 1: I hate to report that nothing much has changed since

5
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 1: the episode I recorded with him behind the walls of

6
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: maximum security prison sing Sing Correctional Facility on March sixth,

7
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:28,720
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen.

8
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 2: He's still there.

9
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean, just think about that's two and a half

10
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: years ago, and he's been in for well over two

11
00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 1: decades now. The bad news is that, even with a

12
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of effort from so many great advocates, his

13
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: motion for new trial based on a Brady violation was denied.

14
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how that could happen. The Brady

15
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,800
Speaker 1: violation would seem to be obvious to almost anyone, but

16
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 1: this judge.

17
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:57,680
Speaker 2: Didn't see it that way.

18
00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,400
Speaker 1: So JJ is anyone making the best of a terrible situation.

19
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 2: And I will.

20
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 1: Say this sinxing Correctional hosts some wonderful events called Choices,

21
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: which are focused on helping children of inmates follow their

22
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,320
Speaker 1: own paths in life and not make the mistakes that

23
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 1: their fathers may have made. In JJ's case, so John

24
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: Adrien's case, he didn't make any mistakes, but many of

25
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,000
Speaker 1: the men who are incarcerated there certainly did things that

26
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: we want to help steer their children away from. So

27
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,320
Speaker 1: in April twenty seventeen. In December of twenty eighteen, JJ

28
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,560
Speaker 1: John Adrien organized, fundraised and was the massive ceremonies of

29
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:38,399
Speaker 1: the Choices events.

30
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,200
Speaker 2: I was there. It was a powerful presentation.

31
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: In October of twenty seventeen, he organized, coordinated, and co

32
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:51,760
Speaker 1: moderated NYCHEPS. That's nychep's second annual conference. Nychep's collective goal

33
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 1: is to increase access to higher education for those impacted

34
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 1: by the criminal justice system and to pool resources in

35
00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: order to create seamless access to quality education in prison

36
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,640
Speaker 1: and beyond. In October twenty seventeen, he also organized and

37
00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 1: facilitated the first ever job Readiness and re Entry Initiative

38
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,200
Speaker 1: at sing Sing for individuals in the Singing population who

39
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: have eighteen months or less until they're to be released.

40
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,639
Speaker 1: It's designed to prepare them for re entry so important.

41
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 1: While imprisoned, John Adrian has been a teacher Fellow for

42
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 1: Columbia University and the Psychology Course from September to December

43
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,680
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and he's still an administrative program assistant for

44
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 1: Hudson Link for Higher Education in prison, a position he's

45
00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 1: held since twenty fifteen.

46
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 2: His accomplishments behind.

47
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,079
Speaker 1: Bars are above and beyond the accomplishments of so many

48
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: people in free society, and I just want to get

49
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:43,799
Speaker 1: him home.

50
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,240
Speaker 2: With the police banging on the door, open up.

51
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 3: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

52
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 3: choice I made as a free man. A year later,

53
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 3: I ended up writing the system. I'm going to be

54
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 3: one of those people who everyone in the world is

55
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 3: going to.

56
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 4: Think as a monster or suspect is a monster for

57
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:09,880
Speaker 4: the rest of my life, and I'm just going to

58
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:10,920
Speaker 4: have to come to peace with that.

59
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 3: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

60
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 3: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

61
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 3: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

62
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 3: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

63
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 3: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

64
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,480
Speaker 3: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for

65
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 3: the last time. Man all help broke loose.

66
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:45,920
Speaker 1: But welcome to another edition of Wrongful Conviction. Today's a

67
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 1: very special day because this is the debut of wrongful

68
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 1: conviction behind Bars, and our guest today is my dear friend,

69
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,760
Speaker 1: an innocent man stuck in a nightmare here at Sing

70
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: Sing prison.

71
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,040
Speaker 2: John Adrian Velasquez, also known as Jay.

72
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 4: John Adrian Belasquez, convicted of killing a retired New York

73
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,120
Speaker 4: City police officer during a botched robbery and Harlem. Fifty

74
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,120
Speaker 4: nine year old Albert Ward was killed. Blaskaz was found

75
00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,480
Speaker 4: guilty of second degree murder JJ. Velaskaz was thrown in

76
00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 4: a lineup been fingered for murdered by a drug dealer

77
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 4: who the police threatened with the rest with no physical evidence.

78
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,320
Speaker 2: Valasquez was prosecuted for murder.

79
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 4: This sentence twenty five years to life.

80
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 3: Valaskaz remains in prison.

81
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 2: JJ. Welcome to the show.

82
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,280
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.

83
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: You're hearing a lot of background noise today, and there's

84
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: a very simple reason for that, which is that we

85
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,200
Speaker 1: are inside of Sing Sing correctional facility and it is

86
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,160
Speaker 1: a noisy place and there's really no getting away from it.

87
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 1: I apologize for any distractions that you're going to experience

88
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,200
Speaker 1: during today's show. We've highlighted the cases of over a

89
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 1: dozen people so far who've been exonerated, and my hope

90
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: is that in bringing more exposure and light to your situation,

91
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,400
Speaker 1: that this will be another part of the process of

92
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,600
Speaker 1: getting you out. Because JJ is just as innocent as

93
00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,760
Speaker 1: any of the people who've been on the show, but

94
00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,719
Speaker 1: as of yet, he has not been able to win

95
00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 1: his freedom. So that's what we're here to talk about today.

96
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,599
Speaker 1: But before we even get into that, I want to

97
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,600
Speaker 1: go back. Let's go back to how you grew up,

98
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 1: where you grew up. You know, we like to always

99
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:19,960
Speaker 1: give a little context.

100
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 3: Sure, I'm a native New Yorker, grew up in a

101
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,520
Speaker 3: middle class family home. My mother was a healthcare worker

102
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,479
Speaker 3: and eventually she went through training and became a union

103
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 3: organizer for eleven ninety nine. My father is a former

104
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 3: was a former US Army veteran who later became an

105
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,680
Speaker 3: Amtrak police officer. By the age of ten, things changed

106
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 3: in my household. I started to realize a lot of

107
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 3: arguments and fights were happening between my parents, and it

108
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,359
Speaker 3: was because my father was actually living a double life.

109
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 3: He had two families. I found out for the first

110
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 3: time that I had a younger brother that was five

111
00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,040
Speaker 3: years younger than me. Half brother from another mother. It

112
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 3: was kind of ecstatic to have a brother. At that time,

113
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 3: I was young and I was naive, and I didn't

114
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 3: really get to see what was about to happen because

115
00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,760
Speaker 3: everything changed. The dynamics of my household changed. My father

116
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,640
Speaker 3: wasn't around as much anymore, and he made it his

117
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,400
Speaker 3: business to remain present in my life. But it's impossible

118
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,080
Speaker 3: to be two places at once, and eventually I started

119
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 3: to fill that void that I missed with my father

120
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 3: by spending more time in the Devil's playground. And for

121
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,840
Speaker 3: those that are listening that may not understand what the

122
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,240
Speaker 3: devil's playground is, the streets of New York are harsh,

123
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 3: and when you go out there and you start to

124
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 3: experience and be exposed to the streets, you start being

125
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 3: overwhelmed by certain environmental factors. And in my particular neighborhood,

126
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 3: there was a lot of negative peer influence and that

127
00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 3: kind of changed the dynamics of my thinking. It changed

128
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,160
Speaker 3: the trajectory of my interests where at one point all

129
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,720
Speaker 3: I cared about was school, sports, and home, And then

130
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:09,119
Speaker 3: a time came where I lost interest in home in school,

131
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 3: but I still had that interest in sports. I had

132
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,440
Speaker 3: this dream because I was good. Baseball was really where

133
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 3: I was at a lot of people believed in my talent.

134
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 3: I had gotten hit by a bus at the corner

135
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 3: of my school when I was sixteen, days after my

136
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,720
Speaker 3: sixteenth birthday, and when the doctors told me that I

137
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,280
Speaker 3: would never be able to compete at the same level

138
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,280
Speaker 3: that I was used to. That changed my life. That

139
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 3: was a crossroad at that point when school went out

140
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,760
Speaker 3: the window, or when sports went out the window. Rather,

141
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 3: school went out the window with it, and I started

142
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 3: cutting class, and before you knew it, I became so rebellious.

143
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,800
Speaker 3: There were so many arguments in my household with my

144
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 3: mom's and I would try to play my father against

145
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 3: my mother and my mother against my father. And eventually

146
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 3: I just got tired of it all and I ran

147
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 3: away from home and in search of my independence. In

148
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 3: pursuit of my independence, I found my self homeless. I've

149
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 3: had many nights where I went to sleep hungry, and

150
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,120
Speaker 3: I know what it is to live off of a

151
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 3: dollar a salami and a dollar cheese and a stolen

152
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 3: loaf of bread. And that's basically where everything started for me.

153
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 3: As a whole different aspect of living in New York

154
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 3: because I was on my own and I didn't have

155
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 3: working papers, I didn't have an ID, I was a

156
00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 3: high school drop out. I'm running for my mother and

157
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 3: my father, so I can't I got to stay away

158
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 3: from police, I got to stay away from anybody who

159
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 3: can officially report me to my family. And it was

160
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 3: a matter of pride, like I left and I didn't

161
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 3: want to go back. And then there was also a

162
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,360
Speaker 3: matter of fear where it was like I'm going to

163
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 3: be judged when it gets scolded, you know, So there

164
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,080
Speaker 3: was shame. There was a lot of different factors playing

165
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 3: in and it just made me go deeper and deeper.

166
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 3: And it was like, I've realized now that that was

167
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 3: the worst choice in my life, because all I did

168
00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,359
Speaker 3: from that point forward was continued to make worse choices

169
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:02,840
Speaker 3: that dig the deeper grave.

170
00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,599
Speaker 1: You somehow or other, managed to survive very difficult circumstances,

171
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 1: a lot of disappointments, a lot of things that no

172
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: child should have to go through and end up on

173
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 1: the streets. But you turned it around to the extent

174
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,520
Speaker 1: that you met a great woman, right and you had

175
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,320
Speaker 1: a couple of kids. Yeah, So how did you go

176
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,319
Speaker 1: from a sixteen, seventeen year old kid on the streets

177
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,200
Speaker 1: to being a twenty two year old man with a

178
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,960
Speaker 1: couple of kids and a wife and more of a

179
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,559
Speaker 1: stable situation.

180
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 3: So basically what happened is being in the streets. I

181
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 3: met Vanessa. I met her at sixteen turning seventeen. Eventually

182
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,680
Speaker 3: I started living with her, and her family took me

183
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 3: in and I was still trying to survive and I

184
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,319
Speaker 3: was moving too fast for my own good. Before you

185
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,120
Speaker 3: knew it, I was a father, and that made me

186
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,800
Speaker 3: start to take life a lot more seriously. And I'm

187
00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,720
Speaker 3: trying to figure out my way and say, all right,

188
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,560
Speaker 3: and I need to do something, and I need to

189
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,040
Speaker 3: do something to ensure that my family's going to be

190
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,880
Speaker 3: all right. Tried to look for jobs, but again my

191
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,080
Speaker 3: high school drop out. At that point, I didn't know

192
00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 3: what skills I may have had that were employable. I

193
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,360
Speaker 3: was a child trying to find my way. Before you

194
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,240
Speaker 3: knew it, I was a father with another child on

195
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,480
Speaker 3: the way, and it was rough. I was basically living

196
00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 3: off of Vanessa because she was getting welfare, and it's

197
00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 3: all social service, you know, SSI. I mean, the rent

198
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,800
Speaker 3: was under one hundred dollars, so it was affordable, you know.

199
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 3: But at the same token, they don't know I'm living there.

200
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,920
Speaker 3: And it's crazy because, yeah, I got arrested a few times,

201
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 3: no charges ever, you know, stuck. I've gotten arrested for loitering.

202
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 3: I've gotten arrested for all kinds of little nonsense that

203
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,560
Speaker 3: happens in the neighborhood. They gave me a trespassing for

204
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,440
Speaker 3: going to see a friend in the projects because I

205
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,640
Speaker 3: don't live in the projects. What people need to realize

206
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 3: in New York and all over the world is that

207
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,760
Speaker 3: all it takes for you to be in my shoes

208
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 3: is to get arrested, for them to take a picture,

209
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 3: for them to take a name and put it in

210
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,320
Speaker 3: a system, for them to take your fingerprints. That's what

211
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,960
Speaker 3: starts everything. That's what started for me. Somebody was able

212
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 3: to look at my picture in a database and say

213
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 3: that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

214
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,680
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about that for a second, JJ,

215
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: because I'm very well aware of the fact that in

216
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,079
Speaker 1: the poorest neighborhoods like the one that you were residing in,

217
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 1: they do these sweeps and they'll pick people up for

218
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: riding a bike on the sidewalk, or like you said,

219
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,960
Speaker 1: visiting a friend. I mean, I'm not sure how that's

220
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 1: a crime, you know, trespassing, You could call trespassing anything.

221
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you might as well arrest somebody for breathing.

222
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,720
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's almost a fada complee that a

223
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,840
Speaker 1: young person like yourself, especially a person of color, is

224
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 1: going to end up in the system in some form

225
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 1: or another for doing the same type of thing that

226
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,559
Speaker 1: other people in other parts of the city or other

227
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:54,679
Speaker 1: parts of the country would not.

228
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 2: Get arrested for.

229
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,960
Speaker 1: As you said, that starts a chain of events that

230
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 1: can only have negative consequence and in your case, tragic consequences.

231
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 2: When I tell these.

232
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 1: Stories to people, they go, but that can be like,

233
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 1: you can't convict somebody with no evidence, but you can absolutely.

234
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 1: So there you were, you have your two kids, You're

235
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 1: turning your life around, doing the best you can.

236
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 3: At the time, yeah, I was actually a student at

237
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,280
Speaker 3: TCI Technical Careers Institute trying to learn about computer programming,

238
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,560
Speaker 3: trying to get a skill that would be employable.

239
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,960
Speaker 1: And to your credit, it's interesting because I think for

240
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 1: some people, the responsibility of fatherhood, of having become a

241
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 1: father at such a young age causes them to run.

242
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 1: But in your case, you took it seriously, and you

243
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,320
Speaker 1: took it as it actually has an opportunity to turn

244
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:36,960
Speaker 1: your life around.

245
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

246
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,800
Speaker 2: So one day everything changed.

247
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 3: It's almost like a blink of an eye. I receive

248
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 3: a phone call. It was a Saturday morning, and it's

249
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 3: from my brother's mother, Carmen, who I also have a

250
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,480
Speaker 3: very close relationship with. And basically my license, my driver's

251
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,480
Speaker 3: license was addressed to my father's address and that's where

252
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 3: Carmen and my brother Jason lived. So they went to

253
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,439
Speaker 3: that apartment at Life four in the morning Friday night

254
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,800
Speaker 3: going into Saturday morning, and they were looking for me.

255
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,760
Speaker 3: You have police officers looking for me, and they tried

256
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 3: to even grab up my little brother. Now, at the time,

257
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 3: I was twenty one years old, so my little brother

258
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 3: being five years younger than me, it's sixteen years old.

259
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,160
Speaker 3: The description was given of two male blacks from twenty

260
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 3: five to thirty years old. Why are you trying to

261
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,120
Speaker 3: grab up this child? Clearly he looks like a child.

262
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,160
Speaker 3: Clearly he doesn't look like me either, and neither one

263
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 3: of us appear to be two black men, right, but

264
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,360
Speaker 3: they're trying to grab him, thinking that he's me for

265
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,319
Speaker 3: whatever odd reason. And then Carmen just makes a big

266
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 3: stink and says, do you understand that this is the

267
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 3: house of an officer who died within the last ten months.

268
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 3: Do you understand what you're doing. You're violating the children

269
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 3: of somebody who served this country just like you. And

270
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,840
Speaker 3: that's when they were like, they eased up a little bit.

271
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 3: They didn't have a warrant for arrest, so they gave

272
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 3: her a card and said, listen, and you get in

273
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,640
Speaker 3: touch with mister Velaskis. Please have him get in touch

274
00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 3: with us. We're trying to help him. I was living

275
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 3: in the Bronx with Vanessa and I get this call

276
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,120
Speaker 3: from Carmen and it's a startling call because she's like, listen,

277
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 3: you know the cops are looking for you. They're saying

278
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 3: something about you shot a police officer and that you

279
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 3: need to call them. They're making it seem very serious.

280
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,840
Speaker 3: They came in here deep and I'm like, listen, Carmen,

281
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 3: what's going on? What are you talking about? I have

282
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 3: no idea what you're talking about. Slow down, And she's like, yo, listen.

283
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,680
Speaker 3: All I know here's a number they want you to call.

284
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 3: I'm like, what precinct did they come from? You know,

285
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 3: where's this coming from. Listen, here's the name. His name

286
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 3: is Joseph Latrenta. Here's his phone number. They told me

287
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 3: the precinct. At the time, it was a twenty eighth precint.

288
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,200
Speaker 3: I don't think I even registered.

289
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 2: That was this four in the morning.

290
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 3: She called me about nine in the morning. She waited

291
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,560
Speaker 3: until a decent time I guess to call me. At

292
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 3: that point, I started to kind of like panic, and

293
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 3: I was frantic. And I have two children. One is

294
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 3: a child that's only a few weeks old. I have

295
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,400
Speaker 3: Vanessa there. Vanessa realized from the phone call that something

296
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,640
Speaker 3: serious is going on. But she's like, what's going on?

297
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 3: And I'm like, yo, just wait a minute. I gotta

298
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,080
Speaker 3: process this, Like I really don't even know what's going on, Like,

299
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 3: let me call my mother. So I called my mother

300
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,320
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yo, ma, you know they're saying the

301
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,560
Speaker 3: police are looking for me. She started getting hysterical on

302
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 3: phone what happened? And I'm like, listen, I don't know

303
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 3: what happened. I don't know what happened. This is what

304
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 3: I know, I know the police are looking for me.

305
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 3: I know it's the weekend. I know it's not a

306
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 3: good time to get into contact with the police because

307
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,360
Speaker 3: I can't see a judge or anybody else until maybe

308
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 3: one day if they come for me. They're saying this

309
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 3: is serious. It's saying I shot a cop. I have

310
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 3: no idea what this is about, but I'm scared and

311
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 3: I need your help. What are we going to do?

312
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 3: So she's like, stay there, I'm coming. My mother lives

313
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,640
Speaker 3: upstate at the time, and she came and picked me up,

314
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,320
Speaker 3: and she took me to the church that we used

315
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,600
Speaker 3: to attend together regularly on the weekend. It's called Love

316
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,560
Speaker 3: Gospel Assembly. We went to the church and there were

317
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,640
Speaker 3: a few people there and we started to tell what

318
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,280
Speaker 3: was going on, but everything was so limited, like didn't

319
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 3: have any real knowledge. And they're saying, listen, the first

320
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,640
Speaker 3: thing you got to do is get an attorney and

321
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 3: contact the precinct. So we try to figure out, you know,

322
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,840
Speaker 3: who would be a good lawyer. So I try to

323
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 3: speak to a couple of my friends that I know

324
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 3: have been involved in the system. Do you know any

325
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 3: good lawyers? They tell me your name, his name, is

326
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,320
Speaker 3: Franklin Gould may rest in peace. At this point, I've

327
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 3: learned that he has passed away recently, so I'm trying

328
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 3: to get in touch with Franklin Gould.

329
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 2: Bad part about this.

330
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,200
Speaker 3: Again, it's the weekend. How do you get in touch

331
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,680
Speaker 3: with a lawyer over the weekend? Right? And we're waiting

332
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 3: for frank Gould to get back to us, and in

333
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 3: that time, the range of emotions that we went through

334
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 3: as a family picture us being in a car driving

335
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 3: around aimlessly. It's my mother, me, Vanessa, JJ, which is

336
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 3: my son, right, I don't want to confuse nobody and Jacob,

337
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 3: and JJ is three years old at the time. Jacob

338
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 3: is a few weeks He was born December twentieth, and

339
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 3: this is Jane where he maybe thirtieth, so he's a

340
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 3: little bit more than a month. And we're driving around

341
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 3: aimlessly and aimlessly, and every time I see a police

342
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,320
Speaker 3: car it's like I get this little chill and I

343
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,399
Speaker 3: don't know what's going to happen here. Eventually we get

344
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 3: in touch with this lawyer. We were outside of a

345
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 3: restaurant and I remember I spoke to him briefly. I

346
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 3: didn't have any information for him. I didn't know what

347
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 3: to tell him. He's asking me for information, like I'm

348
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 3: supposed to know certain things. I don't know nothing.

349
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 2: All you know is that the cops are looking for.

350
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 3: Well, no, I didn't even know there was a murder

351
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 3: at the time. At that point, all I was told

352
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,760
Speaker 3: was that a cop was shot. But I just want

353
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,639
Speaker 3: to address this and get it over with because the

354
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,920
Speaker 3: longer I'm out here, the more my life is in jeopardy.

355
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 2: And he wants you to give him details, which you would.

356
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 3: Have to have them. I'm trying to tell him, I'm

357
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 3: hiring you so you can get the details, right, That's

358
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 3: just why I'm calling you. So he said that he

359
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 3: had contacted the precinct but that they weren't giving any information.

360
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 3: They just wanted me to turn myself in. But I

361
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 3: left him on the phone my mother, and when my

362
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 3: mother came back, I was so upset. I was scared,

363
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,720
Speaker 3: but I was so upset that I decided there's no

364
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,359
Speaker 3: way I want to deal with this guy. Because this

365
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,360
Speaker 3: lawyer told my mother that if we were to get

366
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 3: pulled over by police, that I should put my head

367
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 3: down in the ground and that my mother should throw

368
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 3: her body over me to make sure that nothing happens

369
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 3: to me, because I could get shot and I didn't

370
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 3: like that. You know, if anything, he should have said

371
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 3: that to me while I was on the phone. You

372
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 3: don't see that to my mother had a frantic you know.

373
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,119
Speaker 1: That's a strange thing for a lawyer to say. I mean,

374
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,159
Speaker 1: I understand he was in a certain way trying to

375
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 1: prevent it. Looking that's a little bit hysterical. Yeah, and yeah,

376
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,880
Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right. I mean he should have addressed

377
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 1: that directly with you, right, So you ended up not engaging.

378
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 3: I didn't engage with him. We ended up dealing with

379
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,160
Speaker 3: an attorney. I believe his name is Goldstein. I don't

380
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 3: know his first name. And he told us to go

381
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 3: to a hotel and we got a hotel. We called

382
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 3: him from the hotel, gave me the address, and everything

383
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 3: is crazy. At this point, Vanessa and my mother go

384
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 3: get the hotel room. I'm sneaking in through the back.

385
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 3: I'm afraid, and I'm staying in the hotel room. I'm

386
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 3: waiting for this guy. So this the lawyer comes. He

387
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 3: comes to the hotel and he meets me and he's like,

388
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,160
Speaker 3: all right, how you're doing this is what's going to happen.

389
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,719
Speaker 3: I contacted the precinct. I told him that I'm arranging

390
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 3: to turn you in on Monday, right because it was

391
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,600
Speaker 3: Saturday still, so he says, I'm going to turn you

392
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,400
Speaker 3: in on Monday. Until then, I want you to stay

393
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 3: in this hotel room. I do not want you to

394
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 3: leave this hotel room. I want you to shave your face.

395
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 3: I want you to be clean shaving. We're going to

396
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 3: walk into that precinct early in the morning on Monday,

397
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 3: and we're going to deal with this situation. I want

398
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 3: a thousand dollars right now. I want one thousand dollars

399
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 3: the day that you turn yourself in on Monday, and

400
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 3: then you'll be locked up and Friday you'll be going

401
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 3: to an arraignment. And at that point, I want five

402
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. And I'm like, what are you not getting

403
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything. What are you talking about that?

404
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 3: I got to give you money? Now, give you money again,

405
00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 3: then give you money on Friday. And you're saying them,

406
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,439
Speaker 3: spend five days in jail. What do you represent me for?

407
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 3: And he's like, listen, I'm just telling you these are

408
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 3: some serious charges. This was going to happen. You want

409
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 3: me to be real with you or not. So I

410
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 3: give him the money. I gave him the first thousand dollars,

411
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 3: and I'm just frantic. I don't know what's going to happen.

412
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 3: This guy's telling me now that I'm going to jail,

413
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 3: like it doesn't matter what I did or didn't do.

414
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 3: I'm going to jail.

415
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 1: And let's go back for a second. I mean, we're

416
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,479
Speaker 1: talking twenty years ago. That was a lot of money.

417
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of money now. Yeah, there's

418
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 1: a lot of money.

419
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:28,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

420
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. He actually said that the case was going to

421
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 3: cost fifty thousand dollars before everything was said and done,

422
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 3: because I would be going to trial on this case.

423
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,159
Speaker 3: So he basically convicted me before we even got to

424
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 3: the precinct. So this is the mindset that I'm dealing with. Already,

425
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 3: two lawyers have rubbed me the wrong way, and at

426
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 3: that time, I'm not measuring if maybe it's because of

427
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 3: the emotions that I have something inside of me, maybe

428
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 3: it's not them. I'm not thinking like that. I was

429
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 3: twenty one years old, and eventually, you know, I'm just

430
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 3: sitting there and I keep staring at my children, I'm

431
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 3: staring at for us, and I'm staring at my mother,

432
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 3: and I'm saying, this might be the last time I

433
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,640
Speaker 3: get to see my children, This might be the last

434
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 3: time I get to see my mother. How did this happen?

435
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 1: It's literally everybody's worst nightmare. Everybody's out to get you.

436
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 1: You didn't do anything, and it's the most terrible thing

437
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: that you could be accused of. The murder or the

438
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 1: shooting of a police officer is right at the top

439
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: of them to the list of things that you don't

440
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 1: want to be wrongly accused.

441
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 3: And bear in mind you're talking to the son of

442
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: a police officer. I was raising a police officer's household, right,

443
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 3: I mean, what sense would it make for me to

444
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 3: go out on a rampage and shoot a police officer.

445
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 1: That's crazy, And you had no history of violence, and

446
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: none of it adds up. The nightmare is growing as

447
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: you are encountering these people who are supposed to be

448
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: on your side and people who are supposed to be

449
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 1: helping you. Right, your only chance is to get a

450
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: lawyer that's going to represent you. Monday comes actually the

451
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: step back just a second.

452
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 3: Sunday, I get a call from Frank gould and Frank

453
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 3: gould Man. There's something about this guy. He's a real

454
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 3: smooth talker. He made me feel comfortable and he said, Yo, listen,

455
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 3: don't worry about that guy Goldsting. I'm gonna see if

456
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 3: I can get the thousand dollars from him. If not,

457
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 3: don't worry about it. We're not even talking about money

458
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 3: right now. You're in a serious dilemma. And guess what,

459
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 3: I want to meet you outside that precinct. We're gonna

460
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 3: meet in the morning time. I'm gonna walk in there

461
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 3: with you. We're gonna see what's going on. You wait

462
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 3: for my phone call. After my phone call, you meet

463
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 3: me in front of the twenty eighth precinct and we'll

464
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 3: deal with this situation. He made me feel a thousand

465
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 3: times better. I mean, he knew how to talk to me.

466
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 3: He's talking to me like, all right, you're innocent. We're

467
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: gonna see what's going on, and we're gonna play this

468
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: by ear not you're going to jail, you're gonna get shot.

469
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 3: That's not what somebody wants to hear. And I really

470
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 3: respected that, and eventually Monday came and that's exactly what happened.

471
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 3: We had found out that the apartment in the Bronx

472
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 3: thirteen forty four University Avenue, the door to our apartment

473
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: was hanging off the hinges with a police lock on it,

474
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 3: which means that the police had gone into the building,

475
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 3: went into my apartment, knocked down the door. They've been

476
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 3: in it. They said it was trash. These were neighbors

477
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: that ended up calling. They got in touch with Vanessa,

478
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 3: I believe. So we sent Vanessa home and my mother

479
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,239
Speaker 3: took me to the Priescst to meet my attorneys. So

480
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 3: now we get to the front and Frank Goule's there

481
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 3: with another attorney. Her name is Susan Walsh. We're on

482
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 3: the steps. My mother's like, you know, you want me

483
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 3: to stay and wait for you out here. I said, listen,

484
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: I don't know what's going to happen. Just go home.

485
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 3: If anything, I'll take a cab. Just go home. And

486
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 3: she's like, all right, And I mean, that was the

487
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 3: last time I got to touch my mother as a

488
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 3: free person. It's kind of crazy. And we walked into

489
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 3: the precinct and when we went in there, Frank said,

490
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 3: give me a minute. He left me there with Susan.

491
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: I remember him coming and saying, let's go. I said,

492
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 3: what you mean let's go? He said, let's get out

493
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 3: of here. They don't got no warm for your arrest.

494
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: So we're walking out, and I'm like, listen, Frank, you

495
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: really have to make me understand what's going on. I've

496
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 3: been frantic for an entire weekend, running around with my family,

497
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: staying in hotels, being threatened by lawyers, and you're telling

498
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 3: me we could just walk away from this. And he's like,

499
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 3: they don't have a waran for your arrest. So I

500
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: want you to go home. I said, and then what

501
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 3: happens when I go home? I got a door hanging

502
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 3: off a hinge. What happens when I go home? Is

503
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: this over? He said, no, it's not over. I said,

504
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 3: what do you mean it's not over? He says, they

505
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 3: want to put you in a lineup. I'm not going

506
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: to let them put you in a lineup. I said,

507
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: what happens if I don't get picked in that lineup?

508
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: He says, then you're free. I said, so I'm going

509
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 3: in that lineup? He says, no, you're not. Let us

510
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: do our job, let them do their job. Okay, I'm like, no,

511
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: it's not okay. I want to go in that lineup.

512
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 3: You're telling me that the only way that this is

513
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 3: going to be over is if I go in that

514
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 3: lineup and I don't get picked, telling you I didn't

515
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 3: do this crime. So I'm going in that lineup. He says.

516
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: If you get picked in that lineup, your life is

517
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 3: going to change forever. But you're going to jail, I said,

518
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 3: and what happens if I leave? What do they go

519
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 3: pick me up? Put something in my pocket or do

520
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 3: they shoot at me? Do you realize what I've been

521
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: through this weekend? I'm going in that lineup. And that's

522
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 3: exactly what we did. We walked back in that precinct

523
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 3: and I volunteered for that lineup. I stood in a bullpen,

524
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: like the outside area of a bullpen, sitting in a

525
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: chair with Susan wallsh for a couple of hours while

526
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 3: they went and got some phyllis.

527
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: And this is a bizarre part of the story too,

528
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: because at this point it's interesting and it's important that

529
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: you highlighted that you just spent the weekend like a

530
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: fugitive hiding out. It's exactly when you come to find

531
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: out they don't even have a warm for your arrest.

532
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: Now you're volunteering for a lineup, which you would be

533
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: a little nuts if you were actually guilty to go

534
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: and do that. Absolutely, that doesn't add up. And then

535
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: you know, you don't have to be a professor of

536
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: criminology to understand that, right. And then on top of that,

537
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: you didn't know this at the time, but the suspect

538
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: they were looking for was a guy named Mustafa. Is

539
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: any part of your name Mustafa?

540
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

541
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: And the suspect they were looking for was a black

542
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: male with dreads, right, right? Have you ever been a

543
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: black mail or had dreads?

544
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: Maybe in another life?

545
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: Right, So it would be pretty much it would seem

546
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: like an open and shut situation. And there were numerous

547
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: witnesses who all agreed on this description. It wasn't like

548
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: it was one that said this and one that said that.

549
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: There were numerous witnesses who all said that the suspect

550
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: that the police were looking for was a guy whose.

551
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: Street name was Mustafa.

552
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: And I want to encourage people to watch the show

553
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: on jj coul Conviction, because in it you'll see the

554
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: actual police sketch, which it doesn't look any more like

555
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: you than it looks like me.

556
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: It's a guy. It's a black guy with dreads.

557
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: Had you known that, it would have been perfectly logical

558
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: for you to go into the lineup. And I think

559
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: people can identify with the idea that you're going in

560
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: there and saying, well, I mean you grew up as

561
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: the son of a police officer.

562
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 2: You're going to say to yourself, well, the system is

563
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: going to work.

564
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely right, I mean that was my belief, right, You're

565
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: going to go in there and there's no way that

566
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: somebody's going to pick you out of that lineup, even

567
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: not knowing what we just talked about, right, But had

568
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: you known that, you would have been one hundred percent

569
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: sure that if you go in there, they can't pick

570
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: you out of that lineup. So finally, now you're going

571
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: into the lineup. Yes, And got to be a surreal

572
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: experience too. It was like kind of right out of

573
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: a movie, right, So for this time you're not watching,

574
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: you're actually in it.

575
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: Well, that was my second time ever being in a lineup.

576
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: The first time I was a student at Martin Luther

577
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: King High School and they had this little bus coming

578
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 3: around and they were offering us five hours to appear

579
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 3: in a lineup, and I took it five hours, you know,

580
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: take that, and I went to a lineup. So it

581
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 3: wasn't the first time I was in a lineup, but

582
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 3: it was the first time I was in the lineup

583
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 3: as a suspect. And you know, I don't know what's

584
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: going on on the other side if there's a mirror there,

585
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 3: and I don't know what's going on the other side,

586
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 3: but I do know that Susan Walsh is on that side.

587
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 3: So what happened was when Frank Goule finally realized that

588
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 3: I was determined to go into that priest and volunteer

589
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 3: for the lineup, he said, listen, if you're going in

590
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: for the lineup, you're going to stay here with Susan.

591
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: I have to leave because it would be a conflicent

592
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: interest for me to be your witness and your attorney.

593
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 3: So she's an attorney and she is your witness. And

594
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: that's basically where I still felt comfortable, because I was like,

595
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: she's there, and I'm going to be all right. And

596
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: sure enough, at some point told Number three to stand

597
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: and approach the mirror, and then they told him to

598
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: sit down. Then they said Number two we need you

599
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 3: to stand up and approach the mirror. And I did

600
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: that and I sat back down. They said, everybody said

601
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: thank you. Here it's like a speaker somewhere in the

602
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: room and he's like, thank you.

603
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: Be there.

604
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 3: Shortly, somebody comes and opens the door and says everybody

605
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 3: can leave. I start to get up. He's like, no,

606
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: you stay. So I don't know if I have to

607
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: fill out some paperwork or something before I leave. I said,

608
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: all right, I sit down. Eventually they take me around

609
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 3: back to the same room and Susan's there and she's like, Jay,

610
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but you're gonna be staying. I said, what

611
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: are you talking about. I'm gonna be staying. She said,

612
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 3: you know you were picked, but there's some serious problems

613
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: with your lineup. They made me wear a hat. I

614
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: don't know that that's a problem then, but they made

615
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: us all wear these black pullover hats, winter hats, ski hats.

616
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 3: They had a problem with fillers. But at the end

617
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: of the day, there's an existing affidavit from Susan Walsh.

618
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: She's admitting that my lineup was manipulated on that day,

619
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: and unbeknownst to me, what she's saying is that she

620
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 3: had an argument with the police officers about my position.

621
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 3: She wanted me between number five and number six, and

622
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: they said, nah, we're not doing that. Here he's sitting

623
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: right there, he's number two.

624
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: They didn't want you to be between five and six,

625
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: They wanted you to be number two.

626
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: What is the significance of that?

627
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: Even towards trial, I really didn't understand the significance of it.

628
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: But now in all my studies, it's supposed to be

629
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: kind of a random process. And there's a lot of

630
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 3: studies going on now about sequential lineups and double blind lineups.

631
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: By putting me in a certain position, it can be

632
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: inferred that you have already told these witnesses that an

633
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: individual that committed the crime is going to be sitting

634
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 3: in a particular position, right, So that will they enable

635
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 3: the identification?

636
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: Right?

637
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: Of course, they could say up front, you know, take

638
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: a real close look at number two, right, they could say,

639
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: And that's why a double blind And for those of

640
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: you listening, a double blind means that the person conducting,

641
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: whether it's a police officer or anyone else conducting the lineup,

642
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: should not know cannot.

643
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 2: Know, who the suspect is.

644
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: Because even if their intentions are pure, they subconsciously can

645
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: steer a witness absolutely to just sort of take another

646
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you're doing good. I know this is very

647
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: difficult for you, but you know you got to really

648
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: try hard. Because we've seen it many times. A witness

649
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: will say, I don't know, I don't I don't think

650
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: I see the person in it. Go well, listen, I mean,

651
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: we really need your help. You know, this is a

652
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: brutal crime, this is a we've got to get this

653
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: guy off the streets. What they should be saying is,

654
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: we don't know whether the actual killer, the actual perpetrator

655
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: is in this lineup, absolutely, but if you see them,

656
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: then we need your help.

657
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: But they don't do that.

658
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: They don't typically they they and.

659
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: They may in many cases, and we don't know, but

660
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: in your because we don't know what was going on

661
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: in that room. But it's entirely possible that in your case,

662
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: that your suspicions are true. That they said we think

663
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: we got the guy. We think it's number two. Take

664
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: a look. Let's see if you agree.

665
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: Right.

666
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: Anything like that, even something much more subtle than that,

667
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: can really terribly mess up the process and eliminate objectivity,

668
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: but even then, memories far from perfect.

669
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: Because that's that's what a lineup does. Who looks most

670
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 3: like the individual, it's not who looks most like the

671
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: individual who did it right, That's why we're here. And

672
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 3: I was selected by three individuals, Philip Jones, Robert Jones,

673
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: who were both brothers, and Augustus Brown. Later learning that

674
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: Augustus Brown had actually been the person who selected my photo,

675
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: which made me a suspect, so there was really no

676
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 3: need for him to come and identify me again. So

677
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: if you look at it in a realistic manner, at

678
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: the lineup, there were only two people who really identified

679
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: me because Augustus Brown had already made me a suspect.

680
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: But technically all three of those individuals out of five individuals,

681
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: had identified me.

682
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: And we know that Augustus Brown had a very good

683
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: reason to want to identify you because Augustus Brown was

684
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: a heroin dealer.

685
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: Yes, he was so not.

686
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: Somebody you would consider to be a top notch witness

687
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: or a reliable witness necessarily, and he had a motivation

688
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: which was that when he was picked up, correctly if

689
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, when he was picked up, he was in

690
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: possession of ten bags of heroin. Yes he was, and

691
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: the cops weren't letting him leave until he identified somebody

692
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: they wanted this case soft.

693
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sugustus Brown is an interesting character all to himself.

694
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 3: He has a rap sheet that we can stick on

695
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: the wall and drop to the floor, but in reality,

696
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 3: he was actively on probation at that time. We come

697
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: to find out a trial that he wasn't reporting, so

698
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: he had already abscounded from probation right this, which is

699
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: why he fled before any police would arrive. When he

700
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 3: gets picked up, because he didn't come to the priestsint voluntarily.

701
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: They he was sent multiple messages to come to the precinct.

702
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: He was arrested on a street corner that he sold

703
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 3: drugs on. He did get caught with ten bags of

704
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 3: heroin on him. He was brought to a precinct and

705
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: he spent hours in that precinct. He came about three

706
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: o'clock and he wasn't let go until about eleven o'clock

707
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: at night from a different precinct. He has stated on

708
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: multiple occasions that he was wrong and that he was

709
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 3: forced to do what he did, and there's layers to this.

710
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: So when he was at the precinct. They were trying

711
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 3: to time in as an accessory to murder. They told him,

712
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 3: we got you in possession of drugs. I violated your

713
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 3: probation and you fled the scene, and we have witnesses

714
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 3: who think that you were a part of the team.

715
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: So you're gonna be charged with accessory to murder if

716
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 3: you don't help us do something. He looks at thousands

717
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: of photos. It's supposed to be eight photos per page,

718
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 3: and he looked at a total of one hundred and

719
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 3: fifty six pages. But if you look at the description

720
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: that he initially gave to the police, which was consistent

721
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: and unanimous in the descriptions provided by all witnesses, that

722
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 3: stated that two black males came into that place and

723
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 3: victimized these individuals. One was dark skin and one was

724
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 3: light skin. The light skin individual had dreads or braids.

725
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: I don't know which one. Some of them said break,

726
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 3: some of them said dreads.

727
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: By the way, it's also arguable that your picture shouldn't

728
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: have been in there in the first places.

729
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: You're never convicted of anything.

730
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of

731
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted

732
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: by incarceration, and they're organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams

733
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: to follow the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now,

734
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: thousands of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions.

735
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more

736
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting

737
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system,

738
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To

739
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: learn more about the Campaign to Close Rikers and to

740
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list, go to Campaign

741
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: to Close Rikers dot org, slash, get involved, or follow

742
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: at Freedom Agenda.

743
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: And Why on social media.

744
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: Back to where we were at, You're now in this

745
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: kafka esque and I always say that, but it's true

746
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: nightmare where you're ready to leave the police station. You

747
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: know they must have identified somebody else or nobody because

748
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: you didn't do anything, and you don't even know it.

749
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: But you don't match the description, not even close.

750
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: But they tell you to day.

751
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they tell me to stay. Susan says, listen,

752
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: we'll see you in court tomorrow. You'll be arraigned and

753
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,959
Speaker 3: we'll take it day by day, take it one step

754
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: at a time. In the meantime, before I leave, I

755
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: want you just to be conscious of something. We told

756
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 3: these offices that we took pictures of you and your

757
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 3: underwear in a hotel and that if they touch you,

758
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 3: they will be losing their job. So you should feel safe,

759
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: you should be all right. Do not speak to them

760
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: about anything. And from that point I was escorted into

761
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: this small cage that had a concrete slab and a

762
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 3: bunch of bars, and I stood theify I don't know

763
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 3: how long, and you know, it was real. It was

764
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 3: a real surreal experience where it was just like, you

765
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: know what, you gotta realize at this point you just

766
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: have to block everything out and deal with the situation,

767
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Don't talk to them, don't

768
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 3: ask them no more questions, don't provoke them, just deal

769
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 3: with it. And that's what I did. Eventually we got

770
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 3: to Central Booking, and Central Booking is like another zoo, right,

771
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 3: they heard you from one place to another, you shackled

772
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: up on a chain gang, You got shackles on your feet,

773
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: and you go from one bullpen to another bullpen, and

774
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 3: it's twenty thirty of you moving at the same time

775
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: people are sitting on the floor. You have homeless people

776
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: in there. The smell is crazy. Some of these places.

777
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 3: The plumbing is all messed up, so you might have

778
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 3: some feat season and toilet or some urine, and the

779
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 3: toilet might have urine on the floor because it might

780
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: have flowed out, you know. And it's just a bunch

781
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 3: of people around and you're lucky if you get a

782
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 3: bench to sit on or whatever. And they kept moving,

783
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: moving the chain, moving the chain, and eventually you get

784
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 3: to this place and they start taking your stuff out

785
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: of your pockets and they're searching you on the wall.

786
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: And that's when I had my first serious experience with

787
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 3: corrections officer. Just out of nowhere, towering officer, big hits

788
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 3: me in the back and I never knew that you

789
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: can get your wind knocked out from getting hit in

790
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: the back. Knocks me, knocks me down. I'm conscious, but

791
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: I'm just like blown away and he's just wailing at me,

792
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 3: and I'm just covering up officers that brought me in.

793
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: They were still around and they had stopped them. They say, oh, listen,

794
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 3: leave them alone. You can't do that. He's like yeah,

795
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 3: but he killed a cop. He thinks he's a tough guy.

796
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: I Mi, shewe him a tough guy, and I'm like, yo,

797
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on. And what ended up

798
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 3: happening at that point was they moved me and I

799
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: got separated from the rest of the prisoners and I

800
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,959
Speaker 3: got put in a bullpenp by myself. I could still

801
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 3: see prisoners in a bull pit adjacent from me right across.

802
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 3: They got bullpens everywhere, but I'm by myself now, so

803
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: I definitely have all the room to stretch out and

804
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: lay down and do whatever on a bench. That wasn't

805
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: the problem, but I start to realize the fear of

806
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 3: what that lawyer was talking about that first time when

807
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: he told my mother that this is serious, and I'm

808
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: wondering how much more do I have to go through?

809
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: And he had before I'm able to get out. Fortunately

810
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: for me, I never had that problem again. But that's

811
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: where I first got a taste of reality. The next

812
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 3: day came and I go into another bullpen where they

813
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: have these windows that you can have attorneys come visit you,

814
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: so they call your name. So eventually my name gets

815
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: called and I go in there and it's another attorney.

816
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 3: It's not frankl it's not Susan Waash, nobody I never

817
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 3: met in my life. His name is Norman Rima. And

818
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: Norman Riema comes and he tells me. He says, listen,

819
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 3: mister Velaskaz, we're about to go in front of the

820
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: judge and you're going to be arrainged. But I just

821
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 3: want to put you on point to a few things

822
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 3: that are important. You're being charged with capital murder. I said,

823
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 3: what is that? He says, you're facing the death penalty.

824
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: I said, what the death penalty? I mean, I don't

825
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 3: understand what's going on. And everything is spinning. The walls

826
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: are spinning. Norman Reema is talking. It's incoherent. I don't

827
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 3: know what you're saying. I don't hear you. I block

828
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 3: everything out, and I just I don't know how I

829
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 3: got to that point. And at that point, I don't

830
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: even know how I coped with that, how I dealt

831
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 3: with that, I don't know. I went into some short

832
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 3: sense of trauma and I became numb. I do recall

833
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 3: him saying don't worry about the death penalty, which was

834
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 3: didn't do any good, right, But he said, don't worry

835
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 3: about the death penalty because Robert morganhal has never pursued

836
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 3: the death penalty in New York. So within six months

837
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: they'll probably drop that and you'll be facing natural life

838
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: in prison. And I said, Norman, I didn't commit this crime.

839
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: Why are we talking about death? Why are we talking

840
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 3: about natural life? Why aren't we talking about freedom? Why

841
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: aren't we talking about restoring my status as a citizen.

842
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 3: And he's like, listen, you just have to stay strong.

843
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,479
Speaker 3: But you're not going nowhere else. You're not getting bail.

844
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to go through this process. I said, well,

845
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 3: how long is this process going to take? And he

846
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 3: said anywhere from six months to a year, maybe two years,

847
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: there's no telling. You just gotta stay strong and talk

848
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: about turning point in life. Everything changed from there. I

849
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 3: got sent to Rikers Island, ryk As Island is a

850
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 3: war zone. You know, they call that the school a

851
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 3: hard Knocks, but it's more like Vietnam or going to

852
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 3: Iraq because everywhere you go there's blood. And that's all

853
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: it happens, is humans shedding other human's blood. And you

854
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 3: see it everywhere. There's no way around it. To fight

855
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: after fight, I mean, I don't know how is it

856
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: able to navigate through a lot of that. But I

857
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 3: made it through. I have no scars, I'm still safe,

858
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 3: I'm in one piece, and I'm blessed. Eighteen months I

859
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 3: did on Rykers Island. Eighteen months I was able to

860
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 3: navigate through the bullshit, and eventually I went to trial.

861
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: And going to trial was the first time I get

862
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: to learn how everything unfolded and took place, because for

863
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: all those months, I still couldn't underst then what's going on?

864
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: How did it happen? What took place? Why am I here?

865
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: Those questions weren't answered. They weren't answered by my lawyers.

866
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 3: They just stay strong, John, We're gonna make it through

867
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 3: and worry about it when we get to trial. We mean,

868
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 3: don't worry about it. Life continues, It doesn't stop for anyone.

869
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 3: My children are growing. I watched Jacob's first steps. We're

870
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 3: in a visiting room on Rikers Island. For me, the

871
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 3: first time I seen my son come to me. He's

872
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 3: daddy walking. He's smaller than the table. I raised my

873
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 3: children in prison. That wasn't easy, and looking back at

874
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 3: it now, I can't even take credit for raising my children. Actually,

875
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: so I go to trial, and during the trial, I

876
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 3: start to learn things. I learned that this cop tried

877
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: to interfere with the robbery that was taking place because

878
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: he owned the establishment. And I knew that relative earlier

879
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: as a retired police officer who owned the gambling place.

880
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 3: He also owned the Basket Robbers one hundred and twenty

881
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: fifth Street. He also owned some print shop and another bar.

882
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: Own a lot of establishments for police officer or a

883
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 3: retired police officer rather. And he had this legal gambling

884
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 3: spot and somebody came in. They're saying to shoot him,

885
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 3: this light skinned guy with this with these braids or

886
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 3: these dreads, and he came in. He tried to place

887
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: a bet. And this spot is one hundred and twenty

888
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 3: fifth Street between hundred twenty fifth and one hundred twenty

889
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 3: six and eighth Avenue. So this guy comes in, it's

890
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 3: broad daylight, somewhere around noon, and he comes in, he

891
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 3: places a bet. So when he comes into place to bet,

892
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 3: the guy's like, yo, listen, we don't do that here.

893
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: You're a stranger. Get out of here. He's like, I

894
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 3: ain't no stranger, man, I'm not a cop from the projects.

895
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: He said, Yeah, I'm from the projects. I played my

896
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 3: number on the east side. Man, I'm not trying to

897
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 3: go down there. Let me just play my number. So

898
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 3: they like, all right here. So he goes to fill

899
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 3: out the betting slip. They said, he filled out the

900
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 3: wrong slip. This is Robert Jones testifying, right, because I

901
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: learned everything through testimony. So now Robert Jones says he

902
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: filled out the wrong betty slip. He takes it, throws

903
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 3: it out, and fills out the right slip for him.

904
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: So then he leaves it said. Forty five minutes later

905
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: to an hour later, this guy comes back, knocks on

906
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 3: the door. The numbers about to come out. They're not

907
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 3: taking more bets, they said, Yo, let him in. Let

908
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: him in, worry about he was here earlier. So he's like, yo,

909
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: want to place another bet? He said, Yo, be BET's

910
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 3: a closed, but the numbers about to come out. Just

911
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 3: stick around. Next thing you know, another knock comes on

912
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 3: the door, and then the doorman's at the door and

913
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 3: he's like, yo, there's another guy here. Man, we can't

914
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 3: keep letting these guys there. Next thing you know, they said,

915
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 3: this light skinned guy pulls out a gun. He's like

916
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 3: you know what it is. Let my man. The guy

917
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 3: comes in. Next thing, you know, they tell everybody get

918
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 3: on the ground, and I don't know what happened, but

919
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 3: there was an exchange of fire and eventually the officer

920
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: or the retired officer, wound up dead on the ground.

921
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: So pandemonium inside the book He Joint or the Illegal

922
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: Numbers Joint is total. You've got people being tied up,

923
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: you've got people jumping over things, you've got gunshots ringing out,

924
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: you've got people fleeing, and in the process, a retired

925
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: police officers killed.

926
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 2: So here you are at the trial and you're being

927
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: represented by Norman Reamer, Norman and Frank Goulden, and now

928
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 2: you've been in the system for eighteen months.

929
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: At that time. Yes, to be precise, I turned myself

930
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 3: in February second, nineteen ninety eight. I walked into that precinct.

931
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 3: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

932
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 3: choice I made as a free man. I was on

933
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 3: trial in October of nineteen ninety nine.

934
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: Right, so over a year and a half in the

935
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: most dangerous prison in New York State, which is Rikers Island.

936
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 3: So the trial, at the trial, this is where I

937
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: get the revelation of what occurred. You have several witnesses

938
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 3: who come and they testify. What people need to realize

939
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 3: is that everybody that was at this illegal gambling spot

940
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: was engaging in criminal activity. Every single one of those

941
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 3: people could have been arrested in charged with a crime

942
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 3: where the murder of a retired police officer occurred, so

943
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:10,919
Speaker 3: it was serious for all of them. They were all

944
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 3: under pressure. And then you have to think about the response.

945
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 3: You're talking about the center of Harlem in broad daylight,

946
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: a retired officer who worked that area, who owned the

947
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 3: basket Robbins in that area, was shot and killed. There

948
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 3: has to be a response so that the people in

949
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 3: that neighborhood, the residents of Harlem, understand that this is

950
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: not tolerable. There has to be a response for that

951
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 3: the people in the residence of Harlem can understand that

952
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 3: this is still a safe environment. And that's why there's

953
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: so much pressure to bring somebody to jail.

954
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: And you bring up another interesting point, which is that

955
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: everybody involved had a very strong motive. I want to

956
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: identify you because it takes the heat off of them, right.

957
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just straightforward as it could be. I mean,

958
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 1: these are all people who were engaged in the various

959
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: activities of various different degrees, and the situation provided them

960
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: a very convenient way to make this problem go away,

961
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: and that opportunity was sitting right in front of them.

962
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: All they had to do was point to you and

963
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: say that's the guy who did it. Now you go

964
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: through the trial, all the evidence has been presented, prosecutors

965
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: do their.

966
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: Thing, the defense does its thing.

967
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: As we know, the defense did a very competent job

968
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: in your case, but they were hamstrung by the fact

969
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: that they didn't have the money to do the proper

970
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: investigations leading up to the trial. And the fact is

971
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: that's where the real stuff happens, right, That's where you

972
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: can't go into.

973
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: A war with a toy pistol. Right.

974
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: In fact, that's kind of what happens in these cases

975
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: when you have a defense team that isn't given access

976
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: to the evidence, that isn't even the resources or the

977
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: time because they're so busy to properly investigate the situation.

978
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: And then they're going in there and they're doing the

979
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: best job that they can and presenting the best arguments

980
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: of the camp, but they don't have the information that

981
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: they need that. Actually, in your case, had they been

982
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: able to do that, it's almost impossible to imagine that

983
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: a jury would have convicted you. But that's exactly what happened,

984
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: and that's why we're sitting here right now, and let's

985
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: talk about that. So the moment comes when all the

986
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: evidence has been presented, the jury goes out, and they

987
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: didn't go out for a short time either.

988
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 2: They were out for a long time.

989
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 3: They started getting their instructions Monday, and they started deliberating Tuesday,

990
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 3: and from Tuesday from ten in the morning to ten

991
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 3: at night, Wednesday from ten in the morning to ten

992
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: at night, Thursday from ten in the morning to ten

993
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 3: at night, and to Friday, where the judge is telling

994
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 3: them in the evening, if you do not come back

995
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 3: with a verdict, you will be sequested. That means that

996
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 3: they were going to be held and they weren't going

997
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: to be able to go home over the weekend. Probably

998
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 3: about another hour later, hour and a half later, they

999
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: came back with a verdict and they found me not

1000
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 3: guilty of murdering the first degree.

1001
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: Right.

1002
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: That was the first ruling. Right, So you had reason

1003
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 1: to be optimistic. Now, all of a sudden, you're like, okay,

1004
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 1: so not guilty.

1005
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: Murder, not guilty in a first degree, and then guilty, guilty, guilty.

1006
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 3: I just kept hearing it over and over again. For

1007
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 3: every other charge. They were charges of robbery, charges of

1008
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 3: attempt murder, another charge of murder for the same exact

1009
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: crime that I was just acquitted of. Right. The only

1010
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 3: reason why it was murdering the first degree was because

1011
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 3: of the occupation, the former occupation of the person who

1012
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 3: got killed, right, because he was a police officer. I

1013
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: was facing the death penalty, but I wasn't facing the

1014
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 3: death penalty at that particular phase. I was actually facing

1015
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 3: the same charge one twenty five, twenty seven, murdering the

1016
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 3: first degree, natural life in prison, no opportunity for parole,

1017
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 3: never to be released again. And that's what they acquitted

1018
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 3: me of. See, but the jury doesn't understand what's going on.

1019
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: In fact, through investigations in another film that's taking place now,

1020
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 3: I found out that several jurors in that jury room,

1021
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 3: in that deliberation room, had an impression that I might

1022
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 3: be able to go home in two years as long

1023
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: as they acquitted me of the top charge and found

1024
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 3: me guilty. Of the lesson, and they figured that I

1025
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 3: was young enough to be able to bounce back from

1026
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 3: that and continue with my life. I have no idea

1027
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 3: where they got that impression, because two decades have passed

1028
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: and I'm still in prison.

1029
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: But that's extremely important because now with that information, you

1030
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: can sort of see into the mind of some of

1031
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: the jurors where they're sitting there and you have whatever

1032
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: number of them, two, three are going, the.

1033
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 2: Guy didn't do it.

1034
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 1: The guy didn't do it, and the other guys are going,

1035
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: I want to go home, and he's only going to

1036
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: be in for two years. Just go along with us.

1037
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. We can't sit

1038
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: here all weekend. I got things to do with my kids.

1039
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: I got to get back from whatever the hell they're saying.

1040
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, and it's obvious that this occurred because it

1041
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 3: took four days to come back with a verdict, so

1042
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: there was obviously some dissension in that room.

1043
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it was a clear cut case, it would

1044
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: have been out in an hour. They would have stayed

1045
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: for lunch. So now you're found guilty on all these charges,

1046
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: you end up in this unbelievable situation, and here we

1047
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: are right now inside the walls of sing Sing, almost

1048
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: twenty years later. How did you manage to cope? Where

1049
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: does that spirit come from?

1050
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: It was an organic process, so it wasn't a methodical process.

1051
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 3: It wasn't thought out. It just kind of occurred. Basically,

1052
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,240
Speaker 3: how I saw life was once I got out the fog.

1053
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 3: Because it took me a few years to get out

1054
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 3: the fog. What I realized is that life is about balance.

1055
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 3: So I'm at a low, the lowest I could possibly

1056
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 3: be to be alive on earth. I consider my circumstances

1057
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 3: being buried alive. I say that a lot. I still

1058
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 3: believe that. And I have this philosophy about time, and

1059
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 3: I said, I've been sent to twenty five a life.

1060
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 3: I wasn't even twenty five years old when that happened.

1061
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 3: So I was looking at a portion of time that

1062
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 3: I hadn't even lived yet, under the circumstances that I

1063
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 3: was in, and I couldn't see that. So I had

1064
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 3: to start lying to myself, and I didn't realize they

1065
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 3: were lies then for twenty years. Lady, you look back

1066
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 3: and you say, every year I told myself it would

1067
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 3: be my last in prison. I did that for nineteen

1068
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 3: years and I'm still here. So I was lying to myself,

1069
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: not knowing. But it was that sense of hope that

1070
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 3: allowed me to rise from the ashes of oppression into

1071
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 3: this resilient spirit that I've acquired. And the balance was

1072
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 3: about how do I reach beyond the boundaries of prison

1073
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 3: and become a person who's felt outside of those boundaries.

1074
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 3: How can I help others live? And that's where I

1075
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 3: started to acquire a love for writing, because my letters

1076
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 3: can reach outside the walls. My voice wasn't out yet,

1077
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,439
Speaker 3: but I utilized writing. And you can change your life

1078
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 3: in prison. So instead of just taking time, the way

1079
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: I look at it is this My philosophy personally is

1080
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 3: that life is precious, There's no doubt about that, and

1081
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 3: time is priceless. And why is time priceless Because our

1082
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 3: lives as humans are being measured by the time that

1083
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 3: we spend a life on this earth. And if I'm

1084
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 3: going to be spending all this time in prison where

1085
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 3: I don't have particular responsibilities to anything except for my

1086
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 3: children and my mother, then I can utilize this time

1087
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 3: to learn because I have access to read. So I

1088
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 3: start reading, and I start listening, and I start watching

1089
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 3: and I start observing, and I start to realize that

1090
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 3: there's an untapped pool of resources in prison that exist.

1091
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: What I'm around is a compounded environment that's actually a

1092
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 3: microcosm of society. And the majority of the individuals that

1093
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 3: I'm around are the people who took the wrong path

1094
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: in life. So by sitting down and speaking to them

1095
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 3: and learning what caused them to come across this path,

1096
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 3: I've found answers that we can utilize as preventative measures.

1097
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 3: So now I've learned to take the tools that are

1098
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 3: around me and utilize them to spread the word, become

1099
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 3: a voice for the voiceless, and try to create healthy

1100
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 3: communities from the inside out. And that's how these projects

1101
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 3: started to take place. We have a project called Voices

1102
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 3: from Within right now. Voices from Within are a group

1103
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 3: of individuals or are using the power of their testimony,

1104
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 3: guilty individuals that are using the power of their testimony

1105
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 3: to reach out to the youth and tell them you

1106
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 3: don't want to do this.

1107
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: And I've seen the Voices from Within and I recommend

1108
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: anybody check it out. It's so powerful because there are

1109
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:50,439
Speaker 1: people who shot someone, killed someone, They've taken life, they've

1110
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: taken life, and they have such an incredible sense of

1111
00:55:55,280 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: remorse and responsibility for their actions, and they're channeling into

1112
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: a need to help others not make those same mistakes.

1113
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: There's one that sticks.

1114
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 2: In my mind.

1115
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: The guy who you know was in the movie theater

1116
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: right and you know what, think a rival gang or

1117
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: something like that started shooting and he shot back in

1118
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: the dark and shot an innocent person. And you know,

1119
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: you almost put yourself in that situation, and it's so

1120
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: vivid when you see him talk about it and the

1121
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: pain that he feels of having taken away, as he says,

1122
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,439
Speaker 1: the son of somebody, or the brother or the It's

1123
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: a very very powerful thing and a very positive thing

1124
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 1: that's turning a negative inty positive. Aside from the voices

1125
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: from within, there's a number of other things that you've

1126
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,439
Speaker 1: accomplished in prison. Absolutely, Why don't you just run through

1127
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: some of the laundry list of things?

1128
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 3: For me, these weren't tasks. This was a lifestyle that

1129
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 3: I've adopted. So in running through them, a lot of

1130
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 3: them are vivid. But I never realized how much I've

1131
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 3: actually accomplished until I was tasked with putting this together

1132
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 3: for clemency. It all started with a think tank in

1133
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 3: an inmate organization, and before you knew it, I became

1134
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 3: the community organizer of the facility and I started getting

1135
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: involved at anything that's positive or if anybody needed help

1136
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: how to put something together. I had this tenacity that

1137
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 3: was inherent to just be able to put things together,

1138
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: and we started doing it. When I came to this facility,

1139
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 3: there were a lot more options available. Sink singh is

1140
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 3: the big House of New York. It's the prison right

1141
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 3: but it has been redubbed into sing sing University and

1142
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 3: a documentary about Hudson Link that has been on HBO.

1143
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 3: So I started to go to college right. I started

1144
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 3: to acquire a degree in behavioral science, and I started

1145
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 3: to apply what I was learning between that and what

1146
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 3: I've learned on my own and what was happening in organizations.

1147
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 3: And then I found like minded individuals and we called

1148
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 3: ourselves the Forgotten Voices, and we said, you know what,

1149
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 3: we need to reach out to people who can make

1150
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 3: and affect change. So it's teaching children, and we're working

1151
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 3: with the children of incarcerated parents because they're the closest

1152
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 3: ones to us. But we're trying to work with all children,

1153
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 3: and we're trying to reach out to organizations to help

1154
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 3: children choose better options in life and utilize the experiences

1155
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 3: of those who have choosed bad options in life as

1156
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 3: a platform of experience to learn from, saying you don't

1157
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 3: have to come here to learn this, you can be better.

1158
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: And it's so important because we know that number one

1159
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: factor that determines whether a child will end up in

1160
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: prison is not education or race or socioeconomic factors. It's

1161
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: whether or not they've had a parent in prison. So

1162
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: the idea that you're able to interfere and intervene, i

1163
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: should say, and helped to prevent that from happening is

1164
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: so critical and stopping that pipeline because those kids deserve

1165
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: as much of a chance as anybody else.

1166
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 3: I think what's important to discuss when we discussed the

1167
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 3: projects and what I've accomplished with these projects, is to

1168
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 3: talk about how it really came to where it is today. Right,

1169
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 3: So what ended up really occurring was in two thousand

1170
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 3: and two, an individual came into my life. His name

1171
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 3: is Dan Slepian. He's a producer of NBC and he

1172
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 3: did the documentary Conviction. He did the investigation that proves

1173
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 3: that I am an innocent man. And February twenty twelve,

1174
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 3: when that documentary aired, I was already heavily active in

1175
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 3: positive endeavors in prison, but when it aired, so many

1176
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 3: people reached out to me. And I'm talking about young people,

1177
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 3: old people, all kinds of people all over the world,

1178
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 3: but in particular, there were young people reaching out to

1179
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 3: me and telling me that my story changed their lives.

1180
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 3: Some of them were actively involved in the street life

1181
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 3: and realized that if an innocent man can come to prison,

1182
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 3: then I'm really getting there and I might be the

1183
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 3: next one. And what that did was because in going

1184
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 3: back Again, we're going to go back and forth. In

1185
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 3: two thousand and four, I was the captain of Youth

1186
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 3: Assistance program in green Haven and I used to deal

1187
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 3: with youth and we give them tours of the prison

1188
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 3: and we deal with them on a therapeutic manner. So

1189
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:36,959
Speaker 3: from seeing how film works and seeing that for years

1190
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 3: I've been trying to get my voice outside the boundaries

1191
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 3: of this wall to reach people, to enact change in

1192
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 3: these communities and to change people's lives. I realized that

1193
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 3: the media is a tool to be able to get

1194
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 3: us to them because the problem we had when I

1195
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 3: was Upstate in the Youth Assistance program was the resources

1196
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 3: to get the children to the prison so that we

1197
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 3: can speak to them. We were having an effect on them,

1198
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 3: but if we only saw them one time, we would

1199
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 3: never see them again because the resources to get them

1200
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 3: up there that one time was hard enough. To get

1201
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 3: them to come back and do a reinforcement project was

1202
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 3: even harder. But I realized that we can bring the

1203
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 3: Youth Assistance program to them by doing this. And in

1204
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 3: the same time, other individuals in prison were reaching out

1205
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 3: to me and saying, I'm innocent too, I need help.

1206
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 3: I need the type of help that you have. And

1207
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 3: I started passing names on to Dan Slepian right, and

1208
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 3: these individuals have gotten out of prison. Eric Glistened served

1209
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 3: seventeen years for a crime he didn't commit. He was

1210
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 3: featured on Dateline a Bronx tale that was our work

1211
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 3: Johnny Kopier. His case was just dismissed last week in

1212
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 3: Manhattan court. Another individual we have, Richard Rozario, a very

1213
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 3: dear and personal friend of mine, as is Eric Glisten,

1214
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 3: twenty years for a crime in commit shot him down

1215
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 3: in the courts all the way through six months later,

1216
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 3: the influence of media and a new prosecutor going into

1217
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 3: the bronx became the perfect storm. And now he's a

1218
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 3: free man. And these are individuals I've been around. I've

1219
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 3: been around so many individuals who have been released over

1220
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 3: this time. This is like a whole nother life that

1221
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 3: I've lived in. Here, the ability to affect change in others' lives,

1222
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 3: and to see innocent men become free men based upon

1223
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 3: work that we've done together, To see prisoners who have

1224
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 3: taken lives trying to give back to life. To see

1225
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 3: all of these things taking place in the most unlikeliest

1226
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 3: place is amazing. And it's the driving force that keeps

1227
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 3: me vigilant, that keeps me alive, and that keeps me

1228
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 3: resilient today despite my circumstances, despite the devastation and the

1229
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 3: trauma that we've had to go through. Just think about this.

1230
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 3: My children, for the first ten years of my incarceration,

1231
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 3: remember one was just a month old, was three years old.

1232
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 3: They spent five days in school and one day in

1233
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 3: prison because my mother brought them up religiously. Every week.

1234
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: My mother worked hard as a union organizer, five days working,

1235
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 3: coming up one day bringing two young children to prison.

1236
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 3: What kind of social life did they have? They've experienced

1237
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 3: severe trauma, Vanessa, Her and I were together, We were

1238
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 3: going to raise our children together. We're not together anymore.

1239
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 3: But I don't blame her. I was facing twenty five

1240
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 3: years in prison. We weren't twenty five years old. I

1241
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 3: left her with an unfair burden of having to raise

1242
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 3: two children in a broken home, a home that was

1243
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 3: broken by an egregious miscarriage of justice. The trauma just

1244
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:44,439
Speaker 3: continues to spread throughout the community. When an innocent man

1245
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 3: is convicted, he's not the only person who experiences the

1246
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 3: trauma as a result. The entire community will be affected

1247
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 3: because of the children, because of everything. You asked me,

1248
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 3: what the worst thing that I've experienced in prison. The

1249
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 3: worst thing that I've experienced in prison is that my

1250
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 3: son became a victim to prison. My son came to

1251
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 3: prison because I wasn't there to guide him. Okay, he's

1252
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 3: not innocent, but he if he had me, he would

1253
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 3: have had a different life. And in that sense, he

1254
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 3: was innocent. Whatever he got charged for he did, but

1255
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 3: he shouldn't have had to be in a position to

1256
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 3: be raised without a father and a role model in

1257
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 3: his life to teach him what's right, to guide them

1258
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 3: to see. Yo, listen, I see you going wrong. I'm

1259
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 3: not gonna let you do that. To pull him up.

1260
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 3: I don't get that. I get two three hours of

1261
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 3: his life on a visit every once in a while.

1262
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 3: You think he's given me what he's going through. Nah,

1263
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 3: I'm going on to visit. He's telling me I'm fine. Meanwhile,

1264
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 3: he has to go back and face those demons in

1265
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 3: the Bronx. It's very unfair getting off the negative note

1266
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 3: and going to some of the more positive things. Besides

1267
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 3: the people that I've been able to touch. The thing

1268
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 3: I was proud about throughout this entire ordeal, it's my mother.

1269
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:09,959
Speaker 3: My mother. She's carried my weight in a devastating way.

1270
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 3: She's the strongest person I know. She's been a father

1271
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 3: to my children. She's been amazing. I don't know anybody

1272
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 3: who has the strength that she has and the drive

1273
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 3: and the determination to carry the burden that was left

1274
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,479
Speaker 3: by this miscarriage of justice. My mother is old man,

1275
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 3: she was young, and she was vibrant. She deserves to

1276
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 3: have me. They are taken care of. I'm a holy child,

1277
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 3: not been in prison. She's been taking care of me

1278
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:42,919
Speaker 3: since I was born. That's not fair. Forty one years old.

1279
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 3: She deserves better, and she's been through way too much.

1280
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 3: Trauma is different for different people. And while I'm in

1281
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 3: the experience, prison has taught me that in order to survive,

1282
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 3: you have to become numb. And I've become numb to

1283
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 3: my environment and the circumstances in it so that I

1284
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 3: can deal with it. But in some regard, I haven't

1285
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 3: dealt with it yet, and I don't know what I'm

1286
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 3: going to and I don't know what's going to happen

1287
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 3: as a result, but I hope what has happened to

1288
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 3: others won't happen to me. David Ranther served twenty four

1289
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 3: years for a crimean commit and within a week of

1290
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 3: his release he had a heart attack. Within that same year,

1291
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 3: he had two more. Anthony Yarborough served twenty two or

1292
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 3: twenty three years for a crime in commit They said

1293
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 3: he killed his own sister and mother. DNA exonerated him.

1294
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 3: He died within a year of his release. Willie Lopez,

1295
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 3: personal friend of mine we worked together, got out of

1296
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 3: prison after about twenty two twenty three years and he

1297
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 3: died within a year of his release. I'm forty one

1298
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 3: years old. My father died at forty nine, and he

1299
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 3: wasn't killed. People need to understand how serious raw andful

1300
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 3: convictions are. I've been told that eleven million people cycle

1301
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 3: through the American penal system angrily. Even if we were

1302
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 3: too imagine a ninety nine percent success rate in the

1303
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 3: accuracy of convictions. One percent of that eleven million cycle

1304
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 3: through prison for crimes they don't commit. That's one hundred

1305
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 3: and ten thousand people on an annual basis. And if

1306
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 3: they come through for a serious offense, think about the

1307
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 3: type of time that they have to face. Fernando Bermude

1308
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 3: is a personal friend of mine seventeen years. Jeffrey Dskovic

1309
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 3: personal friend of mine sixteen years. David limis the person

1310
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 3: who introduced me to Dan Slepian from the Palladium murder

1311
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 3: fourteen years. Eric Glisten an individual I helped get out

1312
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 3: seventeen years. Richard Zario an individual helped get out twenty years.

1313
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 3: Johnny and Capyer an individual help get out twenty five years.

1314
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 3: The list will continue to go on the years go

1315
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 3: into the thousands.

1316
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 1: People are hearing this story. It's an outrageous miscarriage of justice.

1317
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 1: It's gotta be fixed. I'm sure people are wondering what

1318
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 1: can they do to help? What can they do to

1319
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: help you? In particular. We've talked about things that people

1320
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: can do in general on the show. Is there anything

1321
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 1: they can do to help in this particular situation and

1322
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 1: as concise a manner as possible? Is there something that

1323
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: you would have people do to help, as you've helped

1324
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 1: so many other people reverse their wrong for conviction.

1325
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 3: I always think that we can't make change, but we

1326
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 3: have demonstrated that we can, and I believe in the

1327
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 3: power of people. I think I need people, particularly the

1328
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 3: listeners of this show, to believe in the power of themselves.

1329
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 3: There's a website being utilized to advocate for my freedom.

1330
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 3: It's called free John Adriavealaskis dot org. J O N

1331
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:48,719
Speaker 3: A D R I V E l A Z qu easy. If, however,

1332
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 3: many people listen to this show were to go and

1333
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 3: get ten people to sign that petition, we would have thousands.

1334
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 3: I'm a stamp away from anybody who cares. I'm sitting

1335
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 3: in sing sing correctional facility. My number zero zero A

1336
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 3: twenty three oh three reach out. I'll tell you how

1337
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 3: you can help. Go to the website, They'll tell you

1338
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 3: how you can help.

1339
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: I think that's the most important thing is go to

1340
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 1: the website. It's free John Adrewanblasquez dot org. And again

1341
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: that's j O N A D R I A n

1342
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: v E, l A Z que Z and then of

1343
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 1: course dot org, so free John Adrewandlaskuaz dot org. Go there,

1344
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,600
Speaker 1: learn how you can help. John has generously offered to

1345
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: have people write to him, and like I said earlier,

1346
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 1: you should expect a letter back that you're going to

1347
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,320
Speaker 1: think he must have had help from a great novelist

1348
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: or a professor of English at an Ivy League university.

1349
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 2: But he writes beautiful letters.

1350
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 3: You have already somehow reached society because over the time

1351
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 3: of December and Christmas I got a stack of mail

1352
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 3: about this big I appreciate that. Thank you. I want

1353
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:54,480
Speaker 3: everyone to know how touched I am by their humanity

1354
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 3: and their opportunity to say, you know what, somebody cares

1355
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 3: about you. And that's some of the energy that I

1356
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 3: utilize to basically catalyze my drive. So I appreciate it.

1357
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 3: I want people to be patient I've been working on

1358
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 3: a petition for clemency. I've been working on my appeal,

1359
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 3: but I will try to get back to everyone, and

1360
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 3: upon my release, I guarantee that I'll be available somewhere

1361
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:23,639
Speaker 3: on social media and we'll get to everyone.

1362
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have a big party, but everybody's going to

1363
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 1: have to sign some petitions to get in, that's for sure.

1364
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 2: JJ. I want to thank you for being on the show.

1365
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 3: I want to thank Revolver Productions for having me. I

1366
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 3: want to thank you Jason for having me and for

1367
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 3: doing everything that you have. You're an amazing individual. Thank you.

1368
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: You've been listening to the first episode of Wrongful Conviction

1369
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 1: Behind Bars, and it won't be the last. I think

1370
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: it's very important that we bring these stories to light

1371
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: from inside the maximum security prison, in this case Sing Sing.

1372
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 1: I want to thank the Tuberintendent Capra for allowing us

1373
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: to film with Ja inside the prison walls. And again

1374
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: our guest today, John Adrian Velasquez. John, I'm looking forward

1375
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 1: to seeing you as I saw Felipe the other day

1376
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: on the outside with your family, and it's going to

1377
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: happen because we're not going to.

1378
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: Give up until it does.

1379
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1380
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1381
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor.

1382
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 1: To the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join

1383
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 1: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to

1384
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to

1385
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to

1386
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The

1387
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 1: music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominatede

1388
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph.

1389
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on.

1390
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:59,879
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1391
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1392
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one