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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three seventy two of Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Like many of you,

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Speaker 1: I've spent the past couple of weeks glued to the

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Speaker 1: TV watching the Paris Olympics and in constant awe of

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Speaker 1: the talent and athleticism of the athletes. Gymnastics is always

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite competitions to watch, but this year

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Speaker 1: I was also tuned in for the track and field

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Speaker 1: events and basketball. There was just no shortage of excellence

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Speaker 1: on display, and, as often happens, feats of black women

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Speaker 1: being excellent are often met with racism and sexism. A

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Speaker 1: few years ago, right after the Tokyo Olympics, we released

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Speaker 1: a conversation with doctor Lejah Carn, a feminist sports psychology

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Speaker 1: practitioner and the CEO of Coalition for Food and Health

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Speaker 1: Equity that feels just as timely today. During our conversation,

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Speaker 1: we discuss the ways that gendered racism shows up in sports,

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Speaker 1: how the strong black woman trope impacts athletes, and how

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Speaker 1: athletes are using platforms like social media to tell more

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Speaker 1: of their story. If something resonates with you while enjoying

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Speaker 1: our conversation, please share with us on social media using

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Speaker 1: the hashtag TVG in Session, or join us over in

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Speaker 1: the sister circles to talk more about the episode. You

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Speaker 1: can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. I'm just so excited to have this

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Speaker 1: opportunity to talk with you because I feel like, in

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Speaker 1: like an academics and a psychologist's life, there are few

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Speaker 1: times when like the work that you do kind of

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Speaker 1: comes to life right in such a big, big way,

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Speaker 1: and like on such a global scale. So I know

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Speaker 1: that you have been incredibly busy in the past couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks and would love for you to just start

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Speaker 1: by like sharing, you know, your thoughts about all the

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Speaker 1: things that have unfolded as it relates to black women,

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Speaker 1: specifically in the Olympics.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, I mean, this is one of those moments

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Speaker 2: right where you're like ten years of your research and

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Speaker 2: you're like, has.

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Speaker 1: Been telling y'all, Try to tell y'all, Try to told y'all.

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Speaker 2: Ain't nobody been listening? Now you're listening. Now you're listen. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 2: that's the feeling. That's honestly the feeling where you're like,

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Speaker 2: it's definitely a full SoCal moment, not just for myself,

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Speaker 2: but for other researchers and practitioners. Through his work is

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Speaker 2: deeply at this intersection of the ways in which these

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Speaker 2: kind of racist and sexist stereotypes and tropes play out

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Speaker 2: in performance based domain and seeing the way it's kind

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Speaker 2: of lived, it's just kind of been demonstrated. It's like,

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Speaker 2: this is what we've been saying all along, and this

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Speaker 2: is how it impacts wellness. This is how it impacts

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Speaker 2: black women's wellness. It's right here right in front of us,

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Speaker 2: for us to see the way black women athletes has

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Speaker 2: to navigate both racist and sexist oppressive systems and sport

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Speaker 2: at the Olympic level I think has been very very

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Speaker 2: interesting because that is really the World Stadium, the largest

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Speaker 2: platforms in sport, and so you know, looking at the

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Speaker 2: Simone Biles, Niomir Soaka, even Alison feel it and the

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Speaker 2: ways in which they've had to navigate sports throughout their

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Speaker 2: entire career, but particularly this year I think is quite

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Speaker 2: interesting because not just with COVID, but it's also the

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Speaker 2: sum of a year and a half of racial reckoning

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Speaker 2: that all black women have absorbed, but particularly black women athletes,

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Speaker 2: and so the Olympics being a space in which they've

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Speaker 2: kind of had to navigate this year and then perform

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Speaker 2: being a representative of the black community and also being

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Speaker 2: a representative of black women whom we still haven't gotten

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Speaker 2: justice for Breonna Taylor, and so it's just quite interesting

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Speaker 2: the interesting time in sports mm hmmm.

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Speaker 1: So I want to step back for a little bit

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Speaker 1: just to kind of give our community an understanding of

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Speaker 1: like what sports psychologists generally do and then specifically, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the combination of you being a sports psychologist, but

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Speaker 1: also your specific research focus what that work look like

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So for psychology is a very diverse field.

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Speaker 2: It includes researchers and practitioners, both individuals whom might be

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Speaker 2: trained clinically within the mental health field and work with

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Speaker 2: athletes along the spectrum of mental health and mental illness

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Speaker 2: as an intersects within sport and athleticism, as well as

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Speaker 2: researchers and non clinically trained individuals who work more around

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Speaker 2: the domain of sport and performance. So, what are the

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Speaker 2: conditions that help excite and stimulate elite athletic performance in exercisers?

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Speaker 2: And then you have individuals who are also and this

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Speaker 2: is a little bit more kind of where I fit in.

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Speaker 2: I shit in kind of multiple places, but are also

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Speaker 2: interested around just exercise and physical health and well being.

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Speaker 2: What are the ways in which exercise kind of helps

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Speaker 2: support just overall health and well being And how are

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Speaker 2: we as a sport and exercise community kind of bringing

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Speaker 2: exercise and sport to everybody in order for them to

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Speaker 2: engage in sport for all. And so you have a

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Speaker 2: kind of a multitude and that diversity or folks, isn't

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Speaker 2: sport in performance psychology? Well, my research really looks at

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Speaker 2: gendered racism and support exercise and health domains. I'm most

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Speaker 2: interested in the ways in which sport and exercise both

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Speaker 2: help and hinders physical activity and support engagement amongst roles

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Speaker 2: and women of color, particularly Black women. And when we

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Speaker 2: look historically and contemporarily, what are the things, what are

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Speaker 2: the conditions that have been most helpful for sport engagement,

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Speaker 2: What are the things that over time might cause black

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Speaker 2: women and girls to leave sport and physical activity, and

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Speaker 2: how do we kind of change those trends. And of

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Speaker 2: course it's a multitude of factors. It's no one particular factor.

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Speaker 2: It's a multitude of things. My research and my work

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Speaker 2: also looks at what are ways in which we can

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Speaker 2: train the next generations of sport and exercise psychology practitioners

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Speaker 2: to be much more culturally responsive to the needs of

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Speaker 2: women of color, but particularly Black women and girls when

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Speaker 2: it comes to sport and performance and physical activity. And

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Speaker 2: then I'm also just generally interested in just motivation. You know,

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Speaker 2: what are the things that are involved in increasing motivation

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Speaker 2: and engagement in sports and physical activity amongst diverse populations,

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Speaker 2: get particularly women of color and black women.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Yeah, so I think, you know, you were

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Speaker 1: the perfect person to talk to about this because of

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Speaker 1: your research, right, So you looking at gender and sexism

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Speaker 1: as it relates to sports, and I think we saw

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Speaker 1: a lot of examples of that, you know, with just

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Speaker 1: the Olympics this year. So we had Shakerrie Richardson's suspension,

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Speaker 1: and then there was the whole band on like the

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Speaker 1: AFRO swimming caps and Brianna McNeil missing her drug tests

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Speaker 1: after recovering from an abortion, and so it seems like

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Speaker 1: the Olympics committee sets these supposedly neutral kinds of like rules,

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Speaker 1: but then we do see it feels like at least

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Speaker 1: black women kind of being undually penalized by some of this.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about like how those rules that are

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Speaker 1: supposed to be neutral really do kind of horn black

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Speaker 1: women specifically?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, I mean the first thing here

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Speaker 2: that comes up for me is that these rules are

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Speaker 2: neutral for white men, but they're not neutral for black

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Speaker 2: women and for women of color. And that speaks to

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Speaker 2: the lack of diversity in governing bodies, that those who

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Speaker 2: are the decision makers and those who are the gatekeepers

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Speaker 2: when it comes to these governing bodies and sport in

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Speaker 2: large part, those that sit on the boards are men

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Speaker 2: and white people. There's very little representation of women of color,

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Speaker 2: and then particularly black women. So when they're creating these

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Speaker 2: policies and these regulations, it does seem neutral for people

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Speaker 2: whom it just wouldn't affect and which is an issue.

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Speaker 2: But then when we think about the issue with the

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Speaker 2: swim cap, Yeah, I'm sure it's quite neutral for white

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Speaker 2: men because they don't have to think about natural hairstyles,

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Speaker 2: but it's actually quite political for black women who have

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Speaker 2: natural hair who swim and needs something that's you know,

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Speaker 2: city and also can cut through the water for them

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Speaker 2: when they're swimming at high rates of speed in the water.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think even based on your earlier comment

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Speaker 1: about studying some of the reasons why women leave sports

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Speaker 1: right and thinking about like how many like myself personally,

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Speaker 1: I do not know how to swim. I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's like all the way related to hair. I also

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Speaker 1: like just grew up in the country where there weren't

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Speaker 1: like lots of access to like where would you swim?

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Speaker 1: But I have heard that as a huge reason why

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Speaker 1: like a lot of black women have not swim, because

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Speaker 1: you know, if you just get your hair done, like

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Speaker 1: you're not trying to get in the pool, right, And

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Speaker 1: so these kinds of considerations around, like caps that would

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Speaker 1: protect hair and those kinds of things are something that

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Speaker 1: other people would not necessarily consider.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely, Like the economics of swimming from a

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Speaker 2: black women's perspective is a very real thing that people

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Speaker 2: really do have to attach to. I'm a fish in

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Speaker 2: water and I don't swim because, like you you know,

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Speaker 2: I have to allow my blowouts to last, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I prefer, you know, sometimes I like to wear

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Speaker 2: my hair in Nashville. Sometimes I like it to be

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Speaker 2: blown up out. But that's my own personal preference, and

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Speaker 2: I don't want word to be a variable to something

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Speaker 2: that I've decided for my hair to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: today or tomorrow. But the other thing here is, let's

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Speaker 2: talk about kind of environmental racism for a second and

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Speaker 2: the ways in which that impacts sport participation. I did

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Speaker 2: a study that looked at the strong black woman's archetype

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Speaker 2: and its relationship to physical activity amongst women, and I

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Speaker 2: interviewed women in a rural area of Michigan, and one

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Speaker 2: thing that they said was on top of being able

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Speaker 2: to having to juggle a lot of different responsibilities in

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Speaker 2: that plain of role and then being able to engage

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Speaker 2: in physical activity. They said, we don't have any sidewalks,

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Speaker 2: So even if they wanted to start a walking group

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Speaker 2: or just to walk, there actually isn't anywhere for them

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Speaker 2: to walk, So they would have to walk in the

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Speaker 2: street if they wanted to use walking as their form

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Speaker 2: of physical activity. And so that was a very real

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Speaker 2: issue that they themselves cannot fix. And oftentimes when we're

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Speaker 2: thinking about sedentary behavior, we often put the responsibility on

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Speaker 2: the individual. In this particular society, we say they're the

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Speaker 2: ones that aren't aren't engaging in physical activity because they

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Speaker 2: don't want to be active, and we fail to look

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Speaker 2: at the build environment around them, particularly in rural and

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Speaker 2: urban areas that have been historically ignored and marginalized. So

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Speaker 2: this area is predominantly black, and there's just no sidewalks,

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Speaker 2: so they say, hey, how am I going to walk?

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Speaker 2: The other thing was that there was a gym that

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Speaker 2: had subsidized memberships. However, there was one bus that they

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Speaker 2: could take to get to that gym, and it only

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Speaker 2: ran in the morning and in the evening. So when

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Speaker 2: you think about their schedule and things like that, it

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Speaker 2: just wasn't possible to be able to go to this

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Speaker 2: gym and to maybe use the equipment and things like that.

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Speaker 2: All these things contribute to sedentary behavior of physical activities.

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Speaker 2: But when we take a step back, racism, it's just

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Speaker 2: environmental racism, structural racism when we know that there's greater

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Speaker 2: availability and much more highly resourced areas where sidewalks and

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Speaker 2: transportations are not an issue for people who are not

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Speaker 2: black and brown to engage in this collectivity.

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Speaker 1: And can you say more, doctor Carter about like how

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Speaker 1: the strong black woman archetype kind of impacted this behavior.

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Speaker 1: What did you learn from that study?

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Speaker 2: Oh a lot. You know what I learned from that

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Speaker 2: particular study, and what I did in that study was

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Speaker 2: I interviewed individuals in that rural area of Michigan, but

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Speaker 2: then I interviewed about forty women all throughout New York City, Bronx, Brooklyn,

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Speaker 2: and Lower Vanahaire, all black women. And what I learned

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Speaker 2: is that there's a multitude of variables that are contemporarily

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Speaker 2: are built into this archetype of the strong black women.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we know a woman that's resilient, that can

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Speaker 2: make a way out of no way. It's part of

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Speaker 2: the strong Black woman, but that these women were also

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Speaker 2: holding on to a lot of other things that were

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Speaker 2: challenges for them to be able to engage in sport

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Speaker 2: and physical activity. One primary one was trauma. That many

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Speaker 2: of the women experienced a variety of different forms of trauma,

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Speaker 2: whether it was intimate partner violence, community based violence, loss

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Speaker 2: of a loved one, also migrating from one country to

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Speaker 2: the US, and still working through that trauma and processing

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Speaker 2: that trauma was a barrier for them to even think

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Speaker 2: about engaging in physical activity. Many of them said it

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Speaker 2: was a world away, like why would I be thinking

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Speaker 2: about engaging in regular physical activity or sports when I'm

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Speaker 2: still working through the loss of my son who was

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Speaker 2: murdered due to community based violence, or I'm still grieving,

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Speaker 2: you know, the loss of this person or whatever it

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Speaker 2: might be. And so when we're thinking about, well, how

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Speaker 2: the strong Black women are, when we're thinking about working

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Speaker 2: with black women and what might be a potential barrier

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Speaker 2: or challenge for them to engage in regular physical activity,

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Speaker 2: understanding what black women might be holding and the ways

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Speaker 2: in which they might be socialized into the strong Black

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Speaker 2: women is extremely important. Two other things that came out

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Speaker 2: of that study, amongst many, was that the strong black

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Speaker 2: woman ideal was something that was passed down generationally, not

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Speaker 2: just from mother to daughter, but from father to daughter,

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Speaker 2: from mother to son, and so it was very deeply

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Speaker 2: ingrained into the psyche of the black community, and a

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Speaker 2: idea that deeply is glorified amongst many different actors within

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Speaker 2: the black community, making it quite hard to disrupt. So

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Speaker 2: not only is it something that's reinforced by it's a

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Speaker 2: larger white supremacist society, but it's something that's also glorified

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Speaker 2: internally within our own community, making it hard to counteract.

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Speaker 2: There is this theme around anxiety and mental health related

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Speaker 2: to being a strong Black woman, and that I think

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Speaker 2: that's also due to Rolestream taking on so many different

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Speaker 2: responsibilities and that's delayed self care and how that impacts

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Speaker 2: just your general well being and mental health.

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Speaker 1: H More from our conversation after the break. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to chat with you. So it's so funny because

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Speaker 1: we were trying to think about, like what is the

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Speaker 1: therapy for black girls? Tying into Cowboy Carter and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, equine therapy, Like you have been wanting

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Speaker 1: to do this episode for a while, so I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy we found you. So can you talk with us

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Speaker 1: first about what is equine therapy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, equine assistant psychotherapy is an experiential therapy treatment

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Speaker 3: that's so far have been proven to increase self efficacy, selfacy,

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Speaker 3: positive identity in individuals along with helping them reduce symptoms

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Speaker 3: of depression and anxiety. And basically it's a form of

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Speaker 3: therapy that involved working with forces instead of just regular

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Speaker 3: talk therapy.

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Speaker 1: So, doctor Carter, I feel like there are so many

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Speaker 1: places I want to go based on what you just shared.

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Speaker 1: So something that you know, I had been thinking about,

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Speaker 1: but you just reminded me of is this whole idea

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Speaker 1: around trauma and how we also saw that play out

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Speaker 1: in the Olympics. Right, So we found out later that

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Speaker 1: Shakarrie Richardson's mother had passed, and you know, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like a part of how she was coping with that

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Speaker 1: grief was through marijuana. And then we also later found

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Speaker 1: out that Simone Bows had an aunt that passed while

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Speaker 1: she was in Tokyo and that she was also car

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Speaker 1: this experience of being a victim of sexual assault, right,

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Speaker 1: and so, you know, I wonder if you can talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about you know, we know just on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis, like how we just try to go

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Speaker 1: to work from day to day dealing with a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 1: But then you're, like you said, on this world stage,

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Speaker 1: the world stadium, expected to perform with these traumatic experiences

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Speaker 1: kind of under your built.

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Speaker 2: So where do I start here? Because part of the

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Speaker 2: strong Black woman this image is that it's a very

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Speaker 2: controlling image that is used to tell Black women how

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Speaker 2: they're supposed to behave, right, that if you're not behaving

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Speaker 2: like a strong black woman, then you were not engaging

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Speaker 2: in the appropriate form of black woman shoulds. And the

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Speaker 2: reason why I'm starting my response that way is because

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Speaker 2: I think it shed some light into one of the

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Speaker 2: criticism that Simone Biles receive, as well as some be

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Speaker 2: side eyeing that Shakari Richardson received. Right. So, if the

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Speaker 2: strong Black woman, the ways in which it's used to

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Speaker 2: control Black femininity and Black womanhood is that you are

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Speaker 2: supposed to absorb trauma, absorb the hardships of life, and

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Speaker 2: wear it in some form of kind of mass grace

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Speaker 2: and form of grace. And that is a badge of glory,

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Speaker 2: a badge of honor. Then the moment that you say

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Speaker 2: I don't want this badge, then that means that you're

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Speaker 2: not being a woman, You're not being a graceful Black woman.

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Speaker 2: Then that's the problem. So when it comes to Simone

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Speaker 2: Biles and Shakari Richardson, you see Simon Bile saying, look,

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Speaker 2: I'm an athlete, I'm a performer. One of the things

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Speaker 2: I like about Simon Biles is that she's very clear

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Speaker 2: that her profession is an athlete, and there's so many

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Speaker 2: other aspects to her that are outside of her as

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Speaker 2: an athlete in this privileged profession. And so in understanding

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Speaker 2: that she says, look, my role as an athlete is

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Speaker 2: not to assume this idea of being a strong black

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Speaker 2: woman and to persevere to the pain that I'm holding

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Speaker 2: right now, as well as this narrative that I'm supposed

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Speaker 2: to be the mammy of all of the survivors and

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Speaker 2: all the victims of USA Gymnastics. That is not my

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Speaker 2: role here. And I am actually feeling in this moment

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Speaker 2: the kind of sumb of all of that right now

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Speaker 2: in the Olympics, and it's time for me to take

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Speaker 2: a step back that is her being a human being

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Speaker 2: and just living in her humanity. But unfortunately, what the

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Speaker 2: strong black woman's trope and ideal does is it dignifies

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Speaker 2: black women and it doesn't allow them to live in

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Speaker 2: their humanity. So when Simone Bile does this, people who

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Speaker 2: see her through that lens are confused. They I think

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Speaker 2: a few things happen. I think they say, wait, you're bionic.

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Speaker 2: You're not, You're vulnerable, you feel things. Wait, you experience trauma.

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Speaker 2: So that first thing happens, and I think a second

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Speaker 2: thing happens is a disbelief that wait, not only do

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Speaker 2: you experience a form of trauma, or not only are

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Speaker 2: you experiencing the twisties or something like that, but are

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Speaker 2: you really can you really just not push through and

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Speaker 2: do this? Because you're bionic and as a superwoman, you're

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Speaker 2: also a fixer. You're the one that just figures it out,

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Speaker 2: even in the face of so much hardship and challenge,

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Speaker 2: you as a black woman, are designed to figure it out,

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Speaker 2: and you're telling us you can't. I don't believe you.

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Speaker 2: And the same that hadn't happened with Shikari Richardson. You

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Speaker 2: mean that the way that you coped with this news

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Speaker 2: and this situation was with marijuana. No, you're a black woman,

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Speaker 2: You're just supposed to be able to do things without

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Speaker 2: any additional support. You can just figure it out. And

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Speaker 2: so being held so rigidly in that controlling image when

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Speaker 2: women black women act outside of it, what happens when

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Speaker 2: people use that lens is that they marginalize them. And

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Speaker 2: we see Shakari Richardson marginalized, and we see some mobiles

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Speaker 2: criticized and marginalized. Mm hmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And can you talk a little bit more about this

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Speaker 1: idea that you mentioned earlier, Samon Biles, is like we

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Speaker 1: were all rooting for them, right, Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: like some of that added pressure of feeling like they

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Speaker 1: have to represent not only the US, which has not

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Speaker 1: typically been kind to them, right, but also like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I got to represent the black community on.

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Speaker 2: My back, gosh. I mean, I think that's the story

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Speaker 2: of black athletes since the since the creation of sport

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Speaker 2: and the integration of sport in the US, the representations

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Speaker 2: that they are the representatives of all black people. And

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Speaker 2: I think for black women athletes, it is not only

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Speaker 2: I am just choosing happenings, not only my representing the

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Speaker 2: black community and black women. But I also have to

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Speaker 2: I also have to navigate this form of classist, racist,

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Speaker 2: and sexist respectibility, the idea of a graceful black woman

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Speaker 2: within a system that is reinforcing this, this subtle but

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Speaker 2: aggressive form of ownership of the athletes. Navigating all of

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Speaker 2: this and remaining a political sport is wonderful at maintaining

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Speaker 2: a space of neutral It's all a sport, like, there's

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Speaker 2: no identity here. There's no identity. Politics. Sport is where

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Speaker 2: it's just you and competition and nowhere else. And so

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Speaker 2: black women have to navigate the pressure, the burden of

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Speaker 2: representing black community and being tokenized as a black woman athlete,

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Speaker 2: yet not being allowed to speak on the very things

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Speaker 2: they're being tokenized for. It's a hard space to be in,

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Speaker 2: a hard place to be in. And like kudos for

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Speaker 2: like Simone Biles, the way in which she navigates it,

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Speaker 2: Like I don't even know how she does it. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think we've seen Alison Felix when she broke heris

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Speaker 2: silence with Nike around maternity protections. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: she said, you know, I had enough of trying to

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Speaker 2: navigate this very oppressive dance and this sport and this

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Speaker 2: industry that is not an never going to love me back.

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Speaker 2: And I think that it really became evident for her

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Speaker 2: when she was pregnant and realized that, hey, I'm not

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Speaker 2: getting any protection for me as a pregnant woman knowing

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Speaker 2: that the stakes are much higher as a black woman

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Speaker 2: that's pregnant, and Nike, the most powerful work company, can't

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Speaker 2: even find ways to protect me. So I think in

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Speaker 2: that realization for Allison's probably where you see where she said,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I'm not even going to do this anymore.

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Speaker 2: I'm done. M H.

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Speaker 1: Something that it feels like has been really instrumental, at

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Speaker 1: least in my advantage point is athletes like some Own

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Speaker 1: Biles and Naomia Soka really using social media and other

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Speaker 1: forms of like new media to kind of control the

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Speaker 1: narrative around what their story is. So have you seen that, Like,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like social media and other kind of

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Speaker 1: spaces of new media have really allowed them to humanize

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Speaker 1: themselves more?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you one. I mean I think

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Speaker 2: that social media, Twitter, Instagram, you know, TikTok. I think

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Speaker 2: these have been wonderful mechanisms for athletes to be able

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Speaker 2: to disrupt narratives that really are not authentic to who

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Speaker 2: the athlete is. And I think the story around Nyoma

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Speaker 2: and soccer is probably the best example. When she says, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to sit with the media, and initially

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Speaker 2: the narrative being scripted is that she is being a

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Speaker 2: defiant young biracial woman, right, and she then uses social

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Speaker 2: media to say, hey, that's not the case. You know,

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Speaker 2: the media is a trigger for me and this is why.

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Speaker 2: And I respect the rules and all that, but this

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Speaker 2: is why. So she's using social media to reshape and

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Speaker 2: disrupt a narrative that was being created not only by

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Speaker 2: sport media, but unfortunately by the World Tennis organism that

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Speaker 2: was also trying to create a narrative that she was

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Speaker 2: not being a cooperative athlete within the organization. I think

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Speaker 2: another thing that social media does is that it helps

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Speaker 2: unify athletes around a number of different political and advocacy

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Speaker 2: oriented topics. I mean, one thing about sports against sports

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Speaker 2: likes to be this a political space and this neutral space,

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Speaker 2: so oppression can really survive in silence. And I think

434
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: that when it comes to athletes and social media, they

435
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: can connect with each person's story, they can say wow,

436
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: you're going through this too. I didn't know because I

437
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: can't share my contract with you. I can't share what

438
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: this person said to me. Right, But now they can

439
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: use social media and say, yeah, this happened to me,

440
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 2: it happened to you, and now let's begin to create

441
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: a movement for change. I think the perfect example is

442
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: around the maternity protections. We saw that with Alison Felix

443
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: and Alicia Marcano.

444
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like the World Tennis Organization's you know,

445
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: kind of the angle they were trying to spind there

446
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: with Naomi Osaka too. But it also feels like the media,

447
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: just in general, at least more traditional news outlets, it

448
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: also feels like play a real role in shaping these

449
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: narratives and really kind of playing into this idea of

450
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: the strong black woman.

451
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I agree. Yeah, I mean the media is really

452
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: good at crafting a number of different racist, sexist tropes

453
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: and stereotypes of black women. I mean we saw them.

454
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: I think that was in twenty eighteen when Serena challenged

455
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: a call. They were very quick to typecast her and

456
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: she was actually characters as an angry black woman on

457
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: the tennis court, right because she was acting outside of again,

458
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: what is supposed to be or what particularly in tennis

459
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,239
Speaker 2: is supposed to be typecasted as a traditional form of

460
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: femininity and so and then for black women, she's just

461
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: was to just take it right. And so because she

462
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: said no, this is not a good call. Okay, now

463
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: we're going to marginalize her and typecast her as an

464
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: angry at attitude y black woman. And so the media

465
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: does an unfortunate yet good job of quickly typecasting black women,

466
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: black women as some form of oppositional, angry superhuman or

467
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: even at times does abelling black women.

468
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: M Yeah, all of the stereotypes.

469
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're some form of controlled image that they like

470
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: to play us into, which really just indignifies and does

471
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: a job of reducing our humanity, if not removing it.

472
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

473
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, doctor Carter,

474
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't fully formed my thoughts on this,

475
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: but there's something swirling around in my mind around like

476
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: resisting these superhuman attributes and like not playing into the

477
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: strong black women stereotype, but also balancing that with like

478
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: how incredible like some black women athletes are. Right, So

479
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: I think we have seen this both with Simone Biles

480
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: and historically if we go back to Soraya Bonilly, so

481
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: they both i think have been penalized for like coming

482
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: up with these new moves that the Olympics and people

483
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: don't want them to do and so they don't grade

484
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: them the same, and they're like, Okay, you're gonna get

485
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: in trouble if you do that, So can you help

486
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: me think through how do you balance you know, because

487
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: there feels like something racist, they are also right racist

488
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: and gendered, and that these two women have been able

489
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: to kind of do things that other people haven't been

490
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: able to do but now are penalized for that.

491
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: I think the first thing is that I'm just thinking

492
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 2: about the strong black women and this idea of like

493
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: positioning black women as superhuman and then connecting it too

494
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: or there's like this line there where when we look

495
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: at women like Simone Biles where she's engaging in feet

496
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: that the average person cannot, so you're kind of like,

497
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: but she is like strong, she's doing things that like

498
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: she's the only woman in the world that can do it.

499
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: Probably very few men can do it as well, And

500
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: so there's that. But there's this piece in the book

501
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: forty million dollars slaves, where the author talks about when

502
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: we think about just racism and sports, there is a

503
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: dissonance that exists within this racist sports society that there

504
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: is an admiration for the feat that black athletes can do,

505
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: and in this context, black women athletes. So there's this

506
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: admiration like, wow, look at what Simone Biles can do,

507
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: Look at what Serena Williams can do. Right, But then

508
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: there's a resentment. We admire you and we are extracting

509
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: labor and entertainment from you because you are driving an

510
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: engine that it's profitable. Right. However, we hate that it's you. Mmm.

511
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: We hate that it's a black woman, and so we

512
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: don't know what to do with that. And so I

513
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: think that is where we see the underscoring of Simone

514
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: Viles when she's doing these terrific feats and other athletes

515
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: as well, where they, you know, don't give her the score.

516
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: I think for the vault that she did that is

517
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: named after her, I think they scored it like a

518
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: six ' six and she's like, they underscored me, But

519
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 2: that's on that, you know. I think that's where they're at.

520
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: It's this dissonance of like, wow, this is done and

521
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: admiring it, but a deep racist resentment that it's a

522
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: black woman that's done it.

523
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.

524
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

525
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: It kind of goes back to our earlier conversation around

526
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: these rules, right, because what they say is like, well,

527
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: we don't want other people trying this because they could

528
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: really hurt themselves. But would the rule be the same if,

529
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: like a non black athlete had done it.

530
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. And I mean the other thing here is

531
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: that we have to also look at this through the

532
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: frame of like also just general femininity, right, like what

533
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: does the woman look like who's doing this? And I

534
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: think an example is Castor Semenya, the South African runner,

535
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: whom unfortunately her biology has been police. And I think

536
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: we see the same things happen when we look at

537
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: other black women is with the same underscoring, the same

538
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: police scene of black women's Olympic seats and just general

539
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: performance occur they fit more Eurocentric feminine features, which would allow, unfortunately,

540
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: these governing bodies to kind of situate them more to

541
00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: kind of white adjacent athletes and standards. That's alation, but

542
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: something that.

543
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: I wonder mm hmmm, yeah, And I do wonder too

544
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: at what point are we going to get away from

545
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: looking at people's like what are they measuring? I don't

546
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: even remember all the specifics, but when they say, okay,

547
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: you have too many, you know, like it's too masculine

548
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: or something, right, Like, at what point is that going

549
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: to be outlawed really as a criteria for being able

550
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: to participate?

551
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

552
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, lots, we had a long way to go.

553
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: I think we really have a long way to go.

554
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: I think another issue here too is that when we

555
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: think of the Moon Biles and Torida Williams and Naomi

556
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: Orsaka and Alison Felix, I think we also are see

557
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: the athletes who are beginning to transcend a system of

558
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: ownership and sport and being able to attain an element

559
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: of like free athletes, and so that is a quite

560
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: radical status to have, and I think it's also something

561
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: that's scared, you know, individuals who are in these controlling

562
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: governing bodies, particularly because they're black women.

563
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, mm hmm. It's also not lost on me

564
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: that it feels like a lot of these black women

565
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: who have done this and like who are kind of

566
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: leading this movement are largely in individual sports right, Like,

567
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: I feel like this is the kind of thing that

568
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: you probably would not see. I mean, we don't have

569
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: female football leagues, but like you couldn't see in the

570
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: NFL or the NBA, And we saw this even with

571
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: the WNBA, right like that they were really on the

572
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: front lines of like a lot of the social justice

573
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: movements we saw like in the past year or two.

574
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: Mm h Absolutely, I agree. When the WNBA players were

575
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: the ones to really first speak out and engage in

576
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: their different actions around advocacy, they received harsh signs, harsh

577
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: harsh sindes because it's still within the institution of the

578
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: NBA that they have to navigate collectively, and so I

579
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: do agree with you that it's far different for an

580
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: individual athletes to say no or do the things that

581
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: they would prefer to do, versus to have to really

582
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 2: navigate a different type of systems.

583
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So you've already kind of alluded to this,

584
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: doctor Carter, but I'd love to just hear you expound

585
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: a little more about what you feel like this moment

586
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: in sports, with all the things that we've seen in

587
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: the saying no and setting boundaries, what do you think

588
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: this means for like black women's mental health.

589
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. I think the first is that I

590
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: think in general, I think the world is waking up

591
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: when it comes to generally like racism and sexism in

592
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: the world. But I think this particular moment is like

593
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 2: a like y'all, like y'all see this right, Like you know.

594
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: So I think that one just the aha moments that

595
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: people are having because just around the racist and sexist

596
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: oppression that exists, and how it's demonstrating the criticism that

597
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: Naomi and Sokka and Loanbiles received, how people are waking

598
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: up to that. It's just so crucial. The other thing

599
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: here is that it speaks to the pressure that athletes

600
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: experience in general, and that athletes need space to be

601
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: able to institute and constitute boundaries. This idea that sport

602
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: is one hundred percent healthy and I'm not saying that

603
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: it's detrimental to health, but that it's a workplace environment,

604
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: and that we need to begin to situate professional sport

605
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: as a workplace environment. And for elite athletes when they say, hey,

606
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: I need a day off, you know, I need a

607
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: six day then it needs to be treated that way,

608
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 2: not as someone being enslaved to a system that is

609
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: just that like this. This is not an athlete being

610
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 2: enslaved to a system. This is an employee. And they're

611
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 2: saying that they need a six day And so there

612
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: needs to be rules and policies that really begin to

613
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: create a healthy workplace environment for our elite athletes that

614
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: way they can care for themselves long terms in a

615
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: variety of ways. The other thing is that we've got

616
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 2: to be able to protect our elite athletes from fans

617
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: and from media. This idea that they have to engage

618
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: with media, this idea that they have to perform even

619
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: at their potential detriment to their own physical and psychological safety,

620
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: is deeply inappropriate. We wouldn't make any other person do that,

621
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: and so why would we have that for elite athletes

622
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: to deeply, deeply, deeply troubling to me and I'm sure

623
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: everyone else. And so this is a crucial time just

624
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: when it comes to the institution of professional elite sports,

625
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 2: but then when we bring it down to college sports

626
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 2: and high school sports, I think this is a great

627
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: and important time to be talking about psychological health and

628
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 2: well being with youth athletes and high school athletes that hey,

629
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 2: look at Simone Biles in Naomi of Soccer and even

630
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: Michael Phelps, like, we're the conversation about what mental health is,

631
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: what mental illnesses, talking to coaches about having a dynamic

632
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: way of coaching that supports youth development holistically, particularly for

633
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: young black girls. Now is the time to really lean

634
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: into this because what should be a place where kids

635
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: are learning, you know, the ads and c's of life,

636
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: you know, sport in life, and if we can bring

637
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: that to our young black girl the way they go

638
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: into healthy Black girls. Using Simone Biles in the Naomi

639
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 2: of Soccer says, you know, hey, look she said no,

640
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: she said her health first, and you can say that too.

641
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 2: I'm getting chills just even thinking about it.

642
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmmmm. So, doctor Carter, you already mentioned forty million

643
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: dollars slave as a reference point for some of this conversation.

644
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: Are there other books or other resources that you would

645
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: want to offer to the community that they may enjoy

646
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: kind of based on what you've shared today.

647
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I got to shout out my book.

648
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 2: It is a rufic edited volume feminist Applied sports Psychology

649
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: from sery to practice. In that book, we really run

650
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: down there's a section where we're just black feminist politics

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00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 2: and sport. Everything we just talked about in this podcast.

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00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 2: Also we go into indigenous based and indigenous practicism sport,

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00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: as well as the experiences of trans athletes and trans

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00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 2: women in sport. So if you're interested in the diversity

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00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: of sport but to a feminist, womanist and black feminist lens,

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00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: please pick up the book. It's a great book.

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00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: Perfect, And where can we find you, doctor Carter? What

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00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: is your website as well as any social media handles

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00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: you'd like to share.

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00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:48,959
Speaker 2: You know, I was going to say you can find

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00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: me outside, but we cannot. You can find me at

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00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: doctor Leijia on Instagram. You can also find me at

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00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: my nonprofit which is Coalition Underscore Equity, and also at

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Speaker 2: www dot Coalitionequity dot org. Perfect.

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Speaker 1: We'll be short to include that in the show notes. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for spending some time for us today,

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Speaker 1: doctor Carter. I really appreciate it.

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00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: No, it's my pleasure, and thank you for the great

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00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 2: conversation and some of the last in between.

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00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: I'm amazed at how timely and relevant that conversation with

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00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: doctor Carter continues to be to learn more about her

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00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: and her work. Visit the show notes at Therapy for

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00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session three seventy two, and don't

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00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls and tell them

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00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: to check out the episode right now. If you're looking

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00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory

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00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if

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00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: you want to continue digging into this topic or just

679
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: being community with other sisters, come on over and join

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00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of

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00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 1: the Internet designed just for black women. You can join

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00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: us at Community dot therapyfro blackgirls dot com. This episode

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00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was

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00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continuing this

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Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

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Speaker 2: What's