Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be
Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.
Speaker 2: I hadn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when
Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,
Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one
Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected
Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the
Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.
Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,
Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.
Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you seem on TV,
Speaker 2: because it may just be a dirty da that is
Speaker 2: trying to rise upward.
Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today I have very special guests Keon Katibi,
Speaker 4: who's going to tell you a story that will well,
Speaker 4: it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken,
Speaker 4: Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5: Thank you, good to be here.
Speaker 4: So Keon, ironically, I guess you could say, is from Pleasantville,
Speaker 4: New York, and you grew up in sort of a
Speaker 4: nuclear family, sort of a normal childhood pretty much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year
Speaker 3: year and a half apart, and I'm the number two.
Speaker 4: And the crux of your story all revolves around a
Speaker 4: tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called
Speaker 4: lock Stock and Barrel eight.
Speaker 5: That's where it all started.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed
Speaker 4: in a fight in this bar, and at the time
Speaker 4: that it happened, you were in the police station, which
Speaker 4: is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have
Speaker 4: much of a better alibi than that it was hidden.
Speaker 4: But there's video that exists that proves that you were
Speaker 4: in the police station at the time of the stabbing,
Speaker 4: and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway, So let's
Speaker 4: go back to that fateful day or that faithful night,
Speaker 4: I should say, when you were in that bar, What
Speaker 4: was going on? How did this fight happen? How did
Speaker 4: you end up going to the police state. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's all so nuts.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a good place to start. Well,
Speaker 3: I was inside of the bar Lockstock and barrel in
Speaker 3: the village of Pleusbonville, Westchester County, New York, and i'd
Speaker 3: just gotten there. I think I was there maybe under
Speaker 3: ten minutes.
Speaker 5: And there was a scuffle.
Speaker 3: There was a I guess a group of young folks
Speaker 3: and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely
Speaker 3: college bar and there was a scuffle and I got
Speaker 3: pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and
Speaker 3: I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.
Speaker 3: A little shorter than me is stocky guy, and he
Speaker 3: grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up
Speaker 3: and I put my hand to push him away.
Speaker 5: He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least.
Speaker 3: And at that time, the bouncer was standing at the
Speaker 3: door and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was
Speaker 3: just focusing on the guy who had his arm around
Speaker 3: my collar and squeezing my shirt.
Speaker 4: That's reasonable, you know.
Speaker 3: And the bouncer grab my shoulder and says, hey, you
Speaker 3: got to get out of here.
Speaker 5: So I left. You know, I obliged.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I
Speaker 3: deserve to stay, you know, So I walk out, and
Speaker 3: the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but
Speaker 3: you were the closest guy to me, and I just
Speaker 3: had to get a grip on the situation.
Speaker 5: So I left.
Speaker 3: I went to seven to eleven store to get some coffee,
Speaker 3: and you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 3: all my friends are inside. I came with them. At
Speaker 3: this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although
Speaker 3: I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do
Speaker 3: I get home? Do I go tell my friends? And
Speaker 3: you know, we're nineteen ninety eight. Everybody doesn't have a
Speaker 3: cell phone, er nothing like that. That's just not going on.
Speaker 3: So you know, maybe a few people at that time,
Speaker 3: if I recall correctly, had what they call pagers. Right, yeah,
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking what do I do? So I start
Speaker 3: walking back toward the bar and saying, maybe I can
Speaker 3: see someone outside, make sure everyone my friends knew at
Speaker 3: least I was kicked out and that I'm going home,
Speaker 3: or maybe they're leaving too soon.
Speaker 5: I'll get a ride, right, right.
Speaker 3: So I start walking back to the bar and there's
Speaker 3: a huge parking lot on one of the sides of
Speaker 3: the lock stock and barrel, bar or pub, whatever you
Speaker 3: call it. And then I see a group there. There's
Speaker 3: altercation and there's yelling and screaming. But I walk a
Speaker 3: little closer because I, you know, it didn't think it
Speaker 3: involved me and didn't at that time.
Speaker 5: It's also the way back to the bar.
Speaker 3: That I have to go, so I get a little
Speaker 3: closer and seems these guys are just like arguing and
Speaker 3: screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind,
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out
Speaker 3: here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me.
Speaker 3: And I go to walk past them and one of
Speaker 3: the guys points at me and says, hey, there's the
Speaker 3: guy from the bar. In my head, I'm just like,
Speaker 3: oh my god. And I'm thinking, is that one of
Speaker 3: the guys who had me by the collar or one
Speaker 3: of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it wasn't enough that
Speaker 3: I just got kicked out of the bar. Now they're like, hey,
Speaker 3: that's him. Like so I kind of steer around the
Speaker 3: group to get to the sidewalk because I don't want
Speaker 3: anything to do with that. And the guy's still yelling
Speaker 3: and it looks like he wanted to come after me
Speaker 3: or to hit the tone of his voice.
Speaker 5: So, you know, and I'm a small guy.
Speaker 3: You know, at that time, I think I weighed like
Speaker 3: one hundred and forty five pounds at you know, five nine,
Speaker 3: so that's probably as light as you can get. You know.
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs
Speaker 3: and everything. And you know, these guys are some they
Speaker 3: were both actually football players. Oh so it's very intimidating
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like,
Speaker 4: this is not a great night so far. Yeah, exactly, exactly,
Speaker 4: but it's about to get a lot worse.
Speaker 3: It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that
Speaker 3: was the beginning of the next ten years of downward spiral,
Speaker 3: you know, until the light, so till the hard fought
Speaker 3: light that is. So I managed to get past them
Speaker 3: and past them. Right across the street is the train station.
Speaker 5: I walked past them.
Speaker 3: I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the
Speaker 3: train station. And it's this downstairs in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs,
Speaker 3: it's maybe like thirty steps, and you know, it's a
Speaker 3: big carve out and it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 3: a dip in the ground, so it's like a big
Speaker 3: ex chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls
Speaker 3: all around here in this down in this pit in
Speaker 3: the middle of Pleasantville.
Speaker 5: And I start hearing all this.
Speaker 3: Yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing
Speaker 3: down there, and I'm just thinking, what what is going
Speaker 3: on there? So I get I get nervous a little
Speaker 3: because one I was just kicked out of the bar.
Speaker 3: Two the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like
Speaker 3: what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey,
Speaker 3: I saw that guy go down the train station steps.
Speaker 3: Let's go find them, you know, And this is what's
Speaker 3: going through my mind.
Speaker 4: At least, you know, logically, I think it was.
Speaker 5: I thought it was.
Speaker 3: Reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not
Speaker 3: a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big a person.
Speaker 3: So I come back up the steps of the train
Speaker 3: station and I just kind of positioned myself right next
Speaker 3: to the police station door, which is on the other
Speaker 3: side of the train station. And when I hear the
Speaker 3: train coming I'll walk down and grab the train. So
Speaker 3: I'm I'm laughing, but it's like, actually.
Speaker 4: All of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know,
Speaker 4: you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the
Speaker 4: police station for protection.
Speaker 3: At the time I thought it was too but you know,
Speaker 3: in hindsight, I see that every step I made was apparently,
Speaker 3: you know, a step toward the fatal results which occurred.
Speaker 4: And you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to
Speaker 4: the police station. I was about, well, we actually know,
Speaker 4: because there's there's time stamps and stuff, right, we know
Speaker 4: you went to the police station at one twelve in
Speaker 4: the morning, right, and then and then what happened.
Speaker 3: I was outside waiting to listen to the train to
Speaker 3: go back down, just for safety reasons, also to hear
Speaker 3: tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,
Speaker 3: is that related to the fight? Did the folks get
Speaker 3: into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are
Speaker 3: they driving around looking for people? It's going to be
Speaker 3: one of those like a brawls between villages, you know,
Speaker 3: because there's rivalries in some of these towns, like football
Speaker 3: rivalries or whatever. Hawthorne, Westlake and I was thinking, oh,
Speaker 3: maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I
Speaker 3: hear these tire screeches, and all of a sudden, I
Speaker 3: hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded
Speaker 3: like they were screaming, like a horror film or something
Speaker 3: like that. My heart just jumped out of me at
Speaker 3: that time, and I ran into the police station and
Speaker 3: there was a glass wall there in the desk. Officer
Speaker 3: and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen.
Speaker 3: I was just coming from down the road from you know,
Speaker 3: the seven to eleven, walking back past the lockstock and barrel,
Speaker 3: and there was some guys that were after me, and
Speaker 3: I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by the
Speaker 3: train station alone, and I just worried that they might
Speaker 3: come and find me, and I guess fight me.
Speaker 5: That's what's going through my mind. At least.
Speaker 3: I asked if I could get a ride to a
Speaker 3: police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations
Speaker 3: are probably like a mile apart, you know.
Speaker 5: And the officer said, yeah, come here, here's some water.
Speaker 3: Sure I can give your ride to the Hawthorn train station,
Speaker 3: no problem, give me a second, And so I sat down,
Speaker 3: I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I
Speaker 3: feel like, you know, that's it. I did what I
Speaker 3: had to do to take care of myself at least
Speaker 3: for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride
Speaker 3: to the train station, go home, and that'll be that
Speaker 3: about it. I guess less than a minute around that
Speaker 3: time goes by and the officer comes back around to
Speaker 3: me and says, hey, listen, I can give you a ride,
Speaker 3: but I've got to go run and answer this call.
Speaker 3: And I don't know what time I'm coming back, so
Speaker 3: I can give your ride, but you have to wait
Speaker 3: and night. I have no idea when I'm coming back.
Speaker 3: So I said, okay, well thanks, and then he.
Speaker 5: Just like gunned it out the door.
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride
Speaker 3: and I do have to get home, So I get
Speaker 3: up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find
Speaker 3: my way home that night, and I thought that was the.
Speaker 5: End of it.
Speaker 4: Well when did you find out what actually happened that
Speaker 4: night at the bar, Because it turned out to be
Speaker 4: a lot more than what you thought. Right, A couple
Speaker 4: of people were stabbed.
Speaker 3: Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking
Speaker 3: about it the next.
Speaker 4: Day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You
Speaker 4: find out that there were a couple of people stabbed
Speaker 4: in the bar. As it turns out, they were so
Speaker 4: drunk they didn't even realize they had been stabbed until
Speaker 4: they came out. But one guy was in the hospital
Speaker 4: for a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it was a
Speaker 4: pretty pretty serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops
Speaker 4: are trying to figure out who did it right exactly,
Speaker 4: and how the hell did they land on you when
Speaker 4: you were in the police station at the time of
Speaker 4: the stabbing. Let's talk about this. How did you end
Speaker 4: up getting convicted because most of the witnesses said you
Speaker 4: weren't there.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of torturous to
Speaker 3: explain how we got from A to B, but I'll
Speaker 3: give it my best shot.
Speaker 5: So there was about two weeks that went by.
Speaker 3: In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know,
Speaker 3: and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and
Speaker 3: that the victims were found actually down the block in
Speaker 3: front of the Bank of New York and another bar,
Speaker 3: you know, but I kind of put some things together
Speaker 3: and say, oh, that probably had something to do with
Speaker 3: the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And
Speaker 3: on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, I'm in Pleasantville,
Speaker 3: down by the Piete Seria. You know, my mom still
Speaker 3: lived there at the time, as well as brothers and
Speaker 3: sisters and a detective, Detective Masie of the Pleasantville Police Department.
Speaker 3: I guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know,
Speaker 3: and I'm actually on the same block as the police department,
Speaker 3: and out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,
Speaker 3: he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least
Speaker 3: two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six feet.
Speaker 3: And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keon,
Speaker 3: come here, you know. And I walk over to him
Speaker 3: and he says, you come with me right now. You
Speaker 3: talk to me what happened a couple weeks ago. And
Speaker 3: I said, well, tell me what you're talking about.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I
Speaker 3: told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now,
Speaker 3: but here's my card. If you want to, you know,
Speaker 3: calm down and we'll make an appointment. I'll come in
Speaker 3: and speak with you. But I have other things to
Speaker 3: do right now. You know, I have a job. I
Speaker 3: work evenings as a waiter. And he got so pissed off,
Speaker 3: Like the anger in his face it was, it was
Speaker 3: just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you
Speaker 3: don't want to talk to me? Then all right, a
Speaker 3: few and he jams his finger into my nose and
Speaker 3: it like stung me. And I'm just in shock right there,
Speaker 3: and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't know what
Speaker 3: to do, Like what's next, you know, is he going
Speaker 3: to like drag me away? Is he going to like
Speaker 3: take me into a van?
Speaker 5: And I don't know all this stuff. I'm like, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away.
Speaker 5: I stand there for a minute and then I walk away.
Speaker 3: When I go home, I go to work, My day
Speaker 3: goes on. I contemplate calling them and making an appointment,
Speaker 3: but I'm not sure. I don't want to go and
Speaker 3: face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then I
Speaker 3: think about two weeks go by, and a couple of
Speaker 3: my friends call me up or tell me. I don't
Speaker 3: recall exactly when I but when I see them or
Speaker 3: hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out
Speaker 3: with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, are
Speaker 3: you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came.
Speaker 3: They showed me the warrant and they said they're looking
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 4: And I said, did you immediately think that it was
Speaker 4: for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the
Speaker 4: hell could they possibly be looking for me for?
Speaker 3: Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on.
Speaker 3: It's not like I was out there doing all sorts
Speaker 3: of stuff where they.
Speaker 4: You weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay,
Speaker 4: So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now
Speaker 4: what happens?
Speaker 3: Well, I call a lawyer and I tell them a story.
Speaker 3: I say, you know, my friend's telling me there's a
Speaker 3: warrant for my arrest. And the lawyer's like, well, did
Speaker 3: you see it? And I was like, well no, because
Speaker 3: you know then I probably would have been arrested by
Speaker 3: the time I saw it. But I'd like to know,
Speaker 3: how do we handle this? You know, do I turn
Speaker 3: myself in, do we call them, do they come.
Speaker 5: Pick me up?
Speaker 3: And so we arranged a date for me to turn
Speaker 3: myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did,
Speaker 3: and I think it was February fourth of nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3: I went and turned myself in. I was I was arrested.
Speaker 3: I was held in county jail for about a week
Speaker 3: without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville.
Speaker 3: I went to the felony hearing. There was two victims.
Speaker 3: One of the victims is testifying about how we thinks
Speaker 3: that I stabbed them this and that, and it was
Speaker 3: held over for indictment. I was indicted. I went to trial,
Speaker 3: and I was convicted. Of course, you know, there's a
Speaker 3: lot more in between to the story, but that's uh,
Speaker 3: that's the timeline there.
Speaker 4: But both of the victims was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,
Speaker 4: And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the
Speaker 4: time they were stad. They were so heavily intoxicated that
Speaker 4: they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came
Speaker 4: along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come
Speaker 4: there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk
Speaker 4: do you have to be to not know you were stabbed.
Speaker 3: Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His
Speaker 3: blood alcohol content BAC was greater than point three and
Speaker 3: that's all it registered on his blood test. And I
Speaker 3: think the way the hospital had it set up, if
Speaker 3: you're greater than point three, I mean that was that
Speaker 3: was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero
Speaker 3: eight point one, but uh, greater than point three was
Speaker 3: was the max. They don't go higher and that and
Speaker 3: that's a state where you can, according to the consensus,
Speaker 3: like you can black out whose consciousness you potentially you
Speaker 3: could die from alcohol poisoning. Sure, at that level.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that for a second. I think for
Speaker 4: drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So
Speaker 4: when you're at point three, that means you're about four
Speaker 4: times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to
Speaker 4: the point where, yes, you can have a cute alcohol
Speaker 4: poisoning and you can die. And it's interesting because at trial,
Speaker 4: neither one of them was able to identify you as
Speaker 4: the assailant, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them
Speaker 3: or they saw me stab them, but they made conclusions
Speaker 3: that must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,
Speaker 3: and that the jury was allowed to hear that, and
Speaker 3: that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real
Speaker 3: shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter or.
Speaker 5: To show the jury.
Speaker 3: Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them
Speaker 3: when in fact I didn't.
Speaker 4: Well, we know now that there are a number of reasons.
Speaker 4: The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know
Speaker 4: lead to wrongful identifications in so many cases. Right, the
Speaker 4: police showed a photo lineup with you in it and
Speaker 4: showed it to the victims and told them that the
Speaker 4: actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number
Speaker 4: of things they did that are at a minimum bad
Speaker 4: police work. And I think that's one of the factors
Speaker 4: that happened in your case that led to you being
Speaker 4: identified as the sale even though you weren't even there.
Speaker 5: That's one of the main factors.
Speaker 4: Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take
Speaker 4: you to get to trial?
Speaker 5: It took a little over one year.
Speaker 4: So you were in jail the whole time.
Speaker 5: I actually bailed out.
Speaker 3: I was out on five thousand dollars bail, So before trial,
Speaker 3: I was out on bail, and during trial, I was
Speaker 3: I guess, lucky enough to be out on bail.
Speaker 4: It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right,
Speaker 4: That would indicate to me that the judge who set
Speaker 4: to bail was not very concerned that you were going
Speaker 4: to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they
Speaker 4: certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand. I mean that's
Speaker 4: almost like a misdemeanor type of bail.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think
Speaker 3: the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses
Speaker 3: in the case and set the bail at five thousand,
Speaker 3: and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing
Speaker 3: occurred in February of ninety eight, and the trial occurred
Speaker 3: in February of ninety nine, so there was a whole
Speaker 3: year there to prepare and you know, fix up the weaknesses.
Speaker 3: And I guess those are nice words to use, because
Speaker 3: the real words I should use is they had a
Speaker 3: whole year to destroy evidence, to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence,
Speaker 3: and to coerce these witnesses to testify against me. So
Speaker 3: by the time I went to trial, you know, it
Speaker 3: was pretty much guaranteed lights out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's pretty incredible when you think about, Again,
Speaker 4: this is New York. You're a guy who's not the
Speaker 4: typical defendant. You know, you hadn't really had a lot
Speaker 4: of altercations with the police before, and yet they did
Speaker 4: things that are so beyond the pale, including not handing
Speaker 4: over a bloody shirt and hat that were found at
Speaker 4: the crime scene, right, I mean, and then eventually claiming
Speaker 4: that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced, that's a nice word.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was just ridiculous.
Speaker 3: I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning
Speaker 3: and doing that, or how they explain why they did that.
Speaker 5: It's just it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4: Not only did they withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape
Speaker 4: that they knew had a timestamp on it that would
Speaker 4: have placed you at the police station at the time
Speaker 4: that the crime was being committed, which is right there,
Speaker 4: case closed done. That means they knew that you didn't
Speaker 4: do it, that they withheld that. They intimidated your friend Eric, right,
Speaker 4: who was in the bar.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'd have to just say he was not
Speaker 3: my friend, but I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was an associate.
Speaker 3: I mean, he would have been a friend if he
Speaker 3: was a nicer person, but I just wouldn't call him
Speaker 3: a friend.
Speaker 4: Okay, So they intimidated acquaintance of yours named Eric Freud,
Speaker 4: into implicating you. And we know from whether way the
Speaker 4: cop behaved towards you actually physically assaulting you, yeah, on
Speaker 4: the street in front of the pizza place. We know
Speaker 4: that there's a lot of credibility to that claim. And
Speaker 4: then they also threatened the bouncer if he didn't implicate you, right,
Speaker 4: so they I mean, I don't want to believe that
Speaker 4: police behave like that. I grew up and I still
Speaker 4: believe that. You know, Listen, most I think most police
Speaker 4: are good. I think as a society we need police.
Speaker 4: I'm not one of these people who's like an anarchist
Speaker 4: or something, and I always say I'm not soft on crime.
Speaker 4: I'm tough on injustice. Right. I believe we need to
Speaker 4: have a system of laws, We need to have people
Speaker 4: in place, police, prosecutors. Whole system has to function because
Speaker 4: it has to keep society safe. But when it's turned
Speaker 4: upside down, it's just it it's so deeply disturbing to
Speaker 4: see what they can do, how they can grind somebody
Speaker 4: like you up so ken now that you are a
Speaker 4: practicing attorney, and we're going to get to that in
Speaker 4: a few minutes because some of the stuff you're doing
Speaker 4: now is so fascinating. Looking back on your trial, do
Speaker 4: you feel that you were represented in an adequate manner?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't and I hope I never represent someone myself
Speaker 3: as an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at
Speaker 3: trial by my attorney, then there was a lot of
Speaker 3: problems there with the defense. At the same time, I
Speaker 3: have to say to myself, well, how can a defense
Speaker 3: truly be effective if all the evidence is being withheld
Speaker 3: from the defense?
Speaker 4: It's really hard, you know. So yeah, I mean you
Speaker 4: didn't have much of a chance. You would have needed
Speaker 4: the Clarence Darrow or a modern day version be very
Speaker 4: shack representing you to give yourself a fighting chance. Absolutely,
Speaker 4: and that's clearly not what you had. You weren't a
Speaker 4: rich guy, right, or you couldn't afford the dream team.
Speaker 3: Oh, I was on financial aid going to community college
Speaker 3: at that time, right, I could hardly even afford, to.
Speaker 4: Put it politely, you were fucked, right, But well, then
Speaker 4: you got to trial. It was already It basically was
Speaker 4: a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,
Speaker 4: They were going to get you. And that's exactly what
Speaker 4: they did. You get convicted and sentenced to what seven
Speaker 4: to fourteen years In person, I'm trying to imagine what
Speaker 4: was going through your mind when that happened.
Speaker 3: Well, like you had just said a few minutes ago,
Speaker 3: in your America, this doesn't happen. This type of behavior
Speaker 3: from police officers doesn't happen.
Speaker 5: And that's what I was thinking too, even.
Speaker 3: After my arrest and during my trial, you know, and
Speaker 3: now all I keep thinking is, you know, there's no
Speaker 3: way that the jury would convict me or this judge
Speaker 3: will allow this even to get to a verdict based
Speaker 3: on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent, and I
Speaker 3: feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You don't get
Speaker 3: convicted of things you didn't do. Not in my America, right,
Speaker 3: And the last thing I think in my mind is
Speaker 3: that everyone would simply jump on board and push my
Speaker 3: head under the water. That's the last thing I thought
Speaker 3: would happen. And the whole time I was in prison,
Speaker 3: I thought, surely someone would come with a helping hand
Speaker 3: and see the injustice that has occurred here. But you
Speaker 3: know that doesn't happen, you know, and you're stuck, always
Speaker 3: hoping for the next level.
Speaker 5: When you're in prison.
Speaker 3: At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested, I'll
Speaker 3: be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this was
Speaker 3: a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and the
Speaker 3: jury will see and the judge will see, and maybe
Speaker 3: even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,
Speaker 3: these are actually kind of naive thoughts.
Speaker 4: Looking back, they were naive thoughts. I mean, they're idealistic thoughts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors
Speaker 3: have a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always
Speaker 3: equate with justice.
Speaker 4: No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is something that
Speaker 4: needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There you have
Speaker 4: to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In your case,
Speaker 4: there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though a huge
Speaker 4: percentage of the evidence, and the most important evidence was
Speaker 4: with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and you still
Speaker 4: had a story to tell that that should have at
Speaker 4: least put some one of two of the jurors in
Speaker 4: a position to say I can't reasonably convict this guy.
Speaker 4: Which prison did you get sent to?
Speaker 3: Well, initially, I'm in Westchester County Jail almost almost for
Speaker 3: like a year there. It turns out that they apparently
Speaker 3: they forgot me. That's what I was told. After I
Speaker 3: was convicted, my bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail,
Speaker 3: and everybody I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted,
Speaker 3: they're upstate within two weeks, and there I am eight
Speaker 3: nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 3: So I actually called my mom and I said, can
Speaker 3: you call the jail and find out what's going on.
Speaker 3: It's supposed to be out of here to go up state,
Speaker 3: Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,
Speaker 3: but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.
Speaker 3: I mean, basically don't get to see anybody or anything.
Speaker 3: It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and
Speaker 3: she said, well, the state says they forgotcha, so they
Speaker 3: didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork era. So I think
Speaker 3: in July of ninety nine, I shipped upstate to Downstate
Speaker 3: Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After my
Speaker 3: mom called and I figured out that I was lingering
Speaker 3: over there in the county jail for a better half
Speaker 3: of a year.
Speaker 4: And that tells you something about just how bad jails are.
Speaker 4: And I think it's important for people to realize that
Speaker 4: you don't see the sunlight thinking about that. How insane
Speaker 4: is it that you, an innocent man, is actually asking
Speaker 4: can you please transfer me to it? Was that a
Speaker 4: maximum security prison? It was, Yeah, so you attract to
Speaker 4: transferred to a maximum security prison. So in prison, now
Speaker 4: you're in this it even it sounds it just sounds
Speaker 4: scary right downstate. It just sounds like.
Speaker 3: It was prison in general. It was very, very scary
Speaker 3: and intimidating.
Speaker 4: How did you survive in this environment?
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I had to do was I guess,
Speaker 3: observe what's going on and find out what I want
Speaker 3: to be involved with. When I went upstate, or even
Speaker 3: it started in the county jail, I realized that there's
Speaker 3: a lot of folks there in prison, in jail in general,
Speaker 3: who had or have drug problems, you know, and there's
Speaker 3: no doubt that they continue to use drugs while in prison.
Speaker 3: And there's another large group which tends to gamble all
Speaker 3: the time. Some of them they'll talk to you with that,
Speaker 3: you know, without strangling. You are are rippings about jaboget, right,
Speaker 3: So you know, as a young, skinny, twenty two year
Speaker 3: old that I was, you know, and they say, they
Speaker 3: give some advice and they say, stay away from gambling
Speaker 3: and drugs and you're gonna increase your chances of not
Speaker 3: getting a shank in the back. And I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: that really made sense. So I'm really not a gambler
Speaker 3: to begin with, you know, And the most I ever
Speaker 3: did back in high school was smoke some pots.
Speaker 5: So I thought, hey, I'm good.
Speaker 3: You know. I wasn't the type of guy who had
Speaker 3: to prove myself. You know, that's not what I was
Speaker 3: there for. I wasn't there to earn my stripes in prison.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I was there because for things I didn't do.
Speaker 5: You know. It was not a big bad dude. And
Speaker 5: I think I.
Speaker 3: Have ability to make people laugh as well and feel
Speaker 3: comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a lot
Speaker 3: of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk to me,
Speaker 3: and that includes you know, some of the gang leaders,
Speaker 3: some of the old timers. You know, these are big
Speaker 3: time dudes in jail. They head up the gangs, and
Speaker 3: you know, I would talk with them, and they seem
Speaker 3: to be more you know, in control and calm. I
Speaker 3: guess because of their you know, a long experience. They
Speaker 3: were no longer going out doing wild things. Those were
Speaker 3: the younger folks in the prison generally, who were like
Speaker 3: stabbing up people or doing crazy stuff for no reason.
Speaker 3: So I think I made I guess you could say,
Speaker 3: friends or whatever with a few of them, and they
Speaker 3: respected me.
Speaker 4: And you think they knew that you were innocent.
Speaker 3: No, to be honest with you, that's probably the last
Speaker 3: thing you want to do going upstate because there are
Speaker 3: folks there. They will pray, people prey on any whiff
Speaker 3: of weakness, any whiff of weakness, and it's really intense
Speaker 3: like that, and you just have to learn really quick
Speaker 3: what people interpret as weakness because you will instantly get
Speaker 3: preyed upon. Like, for example, I'm crossing my legs right here, right,
Speaker 3: No big deal.
Speaker 5: You look at it, You see anything I.
Speaker 4: Didn't notice until you've pointed it.
Speaker 3: Well, go up there as twenty two years old and
Speaker 3: you're crossing your legs and in prison. The environment is
Speaker 3: it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real, but that's
Speaker 3: the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's just the
Speaker 3: machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic. You cross
Speaker 3: your legs or you do anything that's considered not macho,
Speaker 3: and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft and or gay,
Speaker 3: and then you're preyed upon as someone who can be
Speaker 3: made fun of or stolen from, or a chump or
Speaker 3: a punk or whatever. So you really have to watch
Speaker 3: out for anything like that in the outside world, which
Speaker 3: you just being yourself, you know, crossing my legs whatever.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not gay, but it wouldn't matter. I'm
Speaker 3: just saying any any indication. At the same time, you know,
Speaker 3: there's people that sniff out newcomers and they'll try to
Speaker 3: watch your body language, how you hold your shoulders, and
Speaker 3: if there's a piece of weakness, they'll come up and
Speaker 3: they'll try to be your friend or this or that.
Speaker 3: You know, it might not find out for weeks later
Speaker 3: that they're actually preying on you, praying on your weakness
Speaker 3: to find out so that they can basically wrap you
Speaker 3: up in a corner some place and demand your commissary.
Speaker 3: And I've seen this happen to so many people. It's
Speaker 3: rather sad. If that works out, then they go on
Speaker 3: to the next level of intimidation, and they'll have people
Speaker 3: call their family at home and say, hey, can you
Speaker 3: send me some pack of cigarettes? Can you send me
Speaker 3: some money? I'm in trouble here, and that money will
Speaker 3: go to, you know, an extort or someone else under
Speaker 3: threat of rape or or getting beat up, and then
Speaker 3: oftentimes you know it does lead to rape, but the
Speaker 3: person who you know who's victimizing there is just really
Speaker 3: a really intimidated person.
Speaker 4: It's all so terrifying, the whole idea of the eggshells
Speaker 4: you're walking on and having to learn a whole new,
Speaker 4: twisted culture and programming, and it's got to stop. I mean,
Speaker 4: being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured. There should
Speaker 4: be some some dignity in this process. And that is
Speaker 4: it's an affront to should be in front of everybody's
Speaker 4: sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness so great, So here's
Speaker 4: where things get really nuts. Kean on November seventheeenth, two
Speaker 4: thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home,
Speaker 4: your dad was talking about how much he missed you
Speaker 4: and wish you were there and everything else, and then
Speaker 4: a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how
Speaker 4: easy this is for you to even talk about, but
Speaker 4: I mean, do you want to tell what happened or
Speaker 4: you want me to do it?
Speaker 5: Go ahead and then I'll fill in the blanks.
Speaker 4: So, having read the story, it was at that time
Speaker 4: that your brother, I think his name is pronounced Kavon, correct, right,
Speaker 4: your brother Kavon began weeping at the dinner table and
Speaker 4: admitted that he, in fact was the culprit. And I'm
Speaker 4: getting the chills as I'm saying this, right, and I'm
Speaker 4: trying to picture what the hell was going through your parents'
Speaker 4: minds at this point in time, right, I mean, here
Speaker 4: they are talking about how much they miss you, as
Speaker 4: any parent would, and now learning not only that in fact,
Speaker 4: everything you've been saying all along was true, that you
Speaker 4: were innocent, but that the actual perpetrator is sitting at
Speaker 4: the dinner tab with him. It's your brother. Things start
Speaker 4: to progress from there, right, Tell me how that things
Speaker 4: start to move at that point, because a new hearing
Speaker 4: of ultimately is held at which he's brought to the stand.
Speaker 3: Well, just to give you, I guess an abbreviated step
Speaker 3: by step timeline there.
Speaker 5: So after that evening, you know, my father.
Speaker 3: And brother, sisters. Eventually they came and saw me and
Speaker 3: and told me what occurred, and I said, okay, well,
Speaker 3: this is what we should do now. Eventually it led
Speaker 3: to affidavits reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the
Speaker 3: two individuals being included in emotion what they call a
Speaker 3: four forty motion in New York, which is what you
Speaker 3: do after direct appeal to get facts off the record
Speaker 3: in and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.
Speaker 3: Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new
Speaker 3: trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,
Speaker 3: as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.
Speaker 4: But wait a minute before before we get to that. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.
Speaker 4: Was it both of your parents that came to the
Speaker 4: prison to tell you this news?
Speaker 3: No, my dad, Yeah, my mom was in Chicago at
Speaker 3: that time.
Speaker 4: So your dad comes to the prison and tells you that,
Speaker 4: in fact, your brother had admitted that it was he
Speaker 4: who had committed this crime for which you have now
Speaker 4: had eight years of your life stolen from you in
Speaker 4: the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like.
Speaker 3: Well, different people will have different reactions if they were
Speaker 3: in my position, But for me, I can tell you
Speaker 3: it was simply a feeling of relief.
Speaker 5: I just felt relieved.
Speaker 4: Because now you could see light at the end of
Speaker 4: the tunnel. Yes, well, that's logical. You didn't feel rage.
Speaker 3: It was relief for a while, did come. I mean
Speaker 3: I did throughout the years that followed up, you know,
Speaker 3: possibly up until just a few years ago. I don't
Speaker 3: talk to my brother right now for variety reasons. Obviously
Speaker 3: you know this is what happened here is one of them.
Speaker 3: But in the beginning, for at least a few months,
Speaker 3: it was just relief.
Speaker 5: It was just relief. You know.
Speaker 3: I was sitting there, stuck in prison, and I couldn't
Speaker 3: I just couldn't figure out why I'm there or how,
Speaker 3: you know, how the state could have so much power
Speaker 3: over an individual's liberty with without without providing enough circuit breakers,
Speaker 3: enough safety nets, you know, And I'm still.
Speaker 4: There, amazingly, as fate would have it. On September twenty third,
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight, which was your thirty third birthday, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: you got the best birthday present you could imagine.
Speaker 3: I definitely did you want to talk about that? Well,
Speaker 3: I was upstate, you know where was I at this time?
Speaker 3: I think I was at a Sing Sing correctional facility,
Speaker 3: and they called me down to white planes and I
Speaker 3: walked out in front of the judge on September twenty three. Meanwhile,
Speaker 3: I had a retrial ordered by this time, but it
Speaker 3: was just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped
Speaker 3: up and just said we would not oppose defendant's ro
Speaker 3: R release right now. And I heard that and I
Speaker 3: was just like, I don't know, I'm lucky at him
Speaker 3: lose consciousness at that time, just hearing those words.
Speaker 5: So the judge cut me loose, got me loose.
Speaker 3: Right then in the court room, and I was in
Speaker 3: this state issued clothing, and I'm still surrounded by these officers,
Speaker 3: you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple of
Speaker 3: muscle bound officers all surrounding me with handcuffs. And I
Speaker 3: couldn't believe it.
Speaker 4: So what happened? Did they take the handcuffs off right
Speaker 4: then and there? But then you had to still change.
Speaker 4: It was like you walk out into the daylight wearing
Speaker 4: a correction of the uniform.
Speaker 3: Right at they gave me what's called a court uniform,
Speaker 3: which is like, I guess it's always tight jeans. They
Speaker 3: always give somebody two sizes too small. But so it
Speaker 3: was tight jeans like from the eighties.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: So wait a minute, but you're in the courtroom, in
Speaker 4: the courtroom, but you were still dressed in the.
Speaker 5: State issued clothing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, at what point did you change into these two
Speaker 4: tight jeans?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Oh, right before I got into court, they say, here's
Speaker 3: a beige sweatshirt and jeans. Here, you can put them
Speaker 3: on so you don't have to go in front of
Speaker 3: the judge in your prison greens.
Speaker 4: Okay, so at that moment you almost collapse, right, but
Speaker 4: you didn't, And then did the courtroom break out? That
Speaker 4: moment must be etched in your memory permanently.
Speaker 3: I mean, well, if you take it back about one
Speaker 3: minute before the judge said that, you have an officer
Speaker 3: sitting down on my right side, an officer sitting down
Speaker 3: on my left side, and an officer behind me.
Speaker 5: And as they walk you in, well.
Speaker 3: One guy you know who feels like he has like
Speaker 3: the hand of a gorilla strength, you know, always the
Speaker 3: case has a hand on your shoulder, and they're walking
Speaker 3: you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward, don't
Speaker 3: turn to the right, don't turn to the left. And
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, they they mean that, don't
Speaker 3: turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head
Speaker 3: to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in
Speaker 3: the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,
Speaker 3: you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: They don't just take you down, you get a beat down.
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting in this chair and then have officer
Speaker 3: like you can feel the breath on the back of
Speaker 3: your neck of these officers just waiting to take down
Speaker 3: a convicted violent felon for even moving your head to
Speaker 3: the right. And that was how it was until the
Speaker 3: judge said ro rd And so I turned to my
Speaker 3: lawyer and I said, can I can I stand up?
Speaker 5: Can I'm free to go?
Speaker 3: And he says yes, and all the officers stand up,
Speaker 3: and I get up and I say, you're on or
Speaker 3: I can leave. She says yes, you can leave, and
Speaker 3: I turn the officers and I say I can go out.
Speaker 3: Those back doors. Yes, I had to ask the question,
Speaker 3: like I must have just kept repeating it to every
Speaker 3: single officer there before I even felt the courage to
Speaker 3: take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years
Speaker 3: I had been under the gun, and if you make
Speaker 3: any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are
Speaker 3: getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the
Speaker 3: hospital and there's no recourse for that. You know, you
Speaker 3: turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,
Speaker 3: you disrespect a direct order. And you know the way
Speaker 3: the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently
Speaker 3: there you can get taken down and knee in the
Speaker 3: back and you know, a foot on the face, I guess,
Speaker 3: but you know the it was hard to believe, and
Speaker 3: I really couldn't believe it. I asked, I think I
Speaker 3: just repeated so many times, can I.
Speaker 5: Go out that door? Can I go out that door?
Speaker 5: And I had to make sure.
Speaker 3: Because I felt I felt it was unreal.
Speaker 4: And your parents and family in the courtroom, yeah.
Speaker 5: They started crying.
Speaker 3: So I actually walked over back of them in the
Speaker 3: seat and I said, don't cry this, you know, this
Speaker 3: is a beautiful moment.
Speaker 5: Should be happy.
Speaker 3: And so I tried to be strong for them, and
Speaker 3: I tried myself not to cry, because you know, I
Speaker 3: didn't want it to turn into one big weeping fest,
Speaker 3: and you know, I wanted I wanted to see some
Speaker 3: smiles on their face. You know, care about Tom, I
Speaker 3: love them.
Speaker 5: And so.
Speaker 3: We got up and left, and I left with my
Speaker 3: sisters and they took me to immediately, they took me
Speaker 3: to the mall to get Bear jeans, and you know,
Speaker 3: that was that was a very interesting moment as well,
Speaker 3: because they're picking out jeans for me, you know, because
Speaker 3: my style is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these
Speaker 3: jeans on it and they're all tight, and I'm telling them,
Speaker 3: I think this is really tight on my you know,
Speaker 3: my butt, and they're like, listen, it should be a
Speaker 3: lot tighter.
Speaker 5: We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.
Speaker 3: And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.
Speaker 3: I walked out and took me a few weeks to
Speaker 3: realize that that was probably just ordinary geens right there,
Speaker 3: as opposed to nineteen ninety nine when everybody was wearing
Speaker 3: more loose stuff. And so I got used to it,
Speaker 3: still going ten years later.
Speaker 4: So you ultimately graduate college and go to law school,
Speaker 4: not just any law school, NYU law school.
Speaker 3: So let me correct you on that one. So I
Speaker 3: went to NYU underbred and I graduated with honors. For
Speaker 3: law school, I went to Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School,
Speaker 3: which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also
Speaker 3: the home of the Innocent Project, of course, and that
Speaker 3: that's my that's my law school.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you went to NYU. You went from Community College, Pleasantville,
Speaker 4: waiting Tables, maximum security prison, unbelievab ordeal and saga to NYU,
Speaker 4: one of the hardest schools in the world to get
Speaker 4: into and graduate with honors, and then to Cardozo Law School,
Speaker 4: which is the home of the Innis's Project, which is
Speaker 4: again a top top law school. And then you pass
Speaker 4: the bar, which is again I mean, that's an incredible
Speaker 4: accomplishment for anyone, much less someone who if your brain
Speaker 4: was spaghetti, nobody would it would be totally understandable. But
Speaker 4: you managed to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination,
Speaker 4: is drive, and accomplish these great things and pass the
Speaker 4: bar and now you're in practice as a criminal defense
Speaker 4: attorney in New York.
Speaker 5: That is correct.
Speaker 4: Yes, incredible. It's an incredible, incredible story. And you've won
Speaker 4: one lawsuit right already for yourself, for myself. Yeah, right,
Speaker 4: And now you're representing clients, including one whose story has
Speaker 4: kept me up at nights since you told me about it.
Speaker 4: And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk
Speaker 4: about that case. But what's really nuts to me is
Speaker 4: that Keon now finds himself representing a case that is
Speaker 4: eerily similar to his own.
Speaker 3: That is true, Absolutely, I see a lot of things
Speaker 3: in common with my case there. It's part of the
Speaker 3: reason which drives me to help this man out.
Speaker 4: Are you able to talk about that? I know it's
Speaker 4: an ongoing case, so.
Speaker 5: It's an ongoing case.
Speaker 3: I think the case you're talking about I'm wearing a
Speaker 3: T shirt right now, right, is that it?
Speaker 4: Yes, So it's free free Darwin, just like it sounds
Speaker 4: the ar Wyn broke r Oque dot com.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that has a little information about the case and
Speaker 3: what we're trying to do for Darwin.
Speaker 4: And so I mean, this case, it seems like, has
Speaker 4: a very eerie resemblance to your own, you know, with
Speaker 4: the difference being that in this case someone was it
Speaker 4: was a stabbing but it was actually someone who was killed.
Speaker 4: And Darwin has been in prison even longer than you were,
Speaker 4: and it's still fighting for his freedom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now, but
Speaker 3: you know he's a strong individual, so hopefully he can
Speaker 3: get through this and result will be something equitable and
Speaker 3: just for him at least to gain his freedom again.
Speaker 4: And it's an important part of your story too, So
Speaker 4: I want to talk about this because this is where
Speaker 4: it's so important that people like you exist and are
Speaker 4: able to spend the time and devote the brain power
Speaker 4: and the energy and the inspiration, draw on your own
Speaker 4: experience to help somebody who was wrongfully convicted and is
Speaker 4: now serving a terrible sentence in a terrible place. And
Speaker 4: this is a guy who was a young up and comer,
Speaker 4: right entrepreneur, entrepreneur running a pet store, write his own
Speaker 4: pet store at twenty four years old. I want to
Speaker 4: bring attention to his case and use your story to
Speaker 4: drive interest in Darwin's case and helpefully have him sitting
Speaker 4: here in your seat sometime soon.
Speaker 5: I would love nothing more than to see that.
Speaker 4: For the people listening, what can they do to help Darwin?
Speaker 3: To help Darwin? Well, you know, we have to hire
Speaker 3: a gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and
Speaker 3: investigators and all these things cost money. And when you
Speaker 3: go to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a
Speaker 3: rock up a mountain. It requires so much effort because
Speaker 3: courts are really not receptive generally, so it requires a
Speaker 3: lot of effort and a lot of money. So on
Speaker 3: the website, if someone would like to donate, it's right there.
Speaker 3: None of it will go to me. I don't charge
Speaker 3: an hourly fee. I'm working pro bono and I will
Speaker 3: continue to do so until I see justice done in
Speaker 3: this case. But they can donate and it will go
Speaker 3: toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that
Speaker 3: are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the DA
Speaker 3: or police or litigation you know, costs court fees. It'll
Speaker 3: all go toward that. So that's one way that they
Speaker 3: can help and it will go a long way.
Speaker 4: So in a nutshell, people please go to free Darwinroque
Speaker 4: dot com and see how you can get involved and
Speaker 4: help Kion in this remarkable effort that he's putting forth
Speaker 4: on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself in
Speaker 4: these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found yourself
Speaker 4: in twenty years ago or so. Ken, we have a
Speaker 4: tradition here on Ronfuel Conviction, which is that I like
Speaker 4: to turn the mic over to you, the star of
Speaker 4: our show today, for any closing thoughts.
Speaker 3: Well, if folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed
Speaker 3: an interest in the criminal justice system, are the injustice
Speaker 3: that's occurring within that system. If you feel to help out,
Speaker 3: there's always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money,
Speaker 3: although every little bit does help as well. Reach out
Speaker 3: to some folks and you know, if you're really interested
Speaker 3: in helping the movement, because there's plenty of folks still
Speaker 3: in jail for things they did not do. I think
Speaker 3: it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country. And also
Speaker 3: thing we're still trying to get a hold on how
Speaker 3: many people actually get convicted of things they didn't do,
Speaker 3: and I think it's I think it's much greater than
Speaker 3: your average person anticipates. So don't be afraid to reach out.
Speaker 3: Maybe volunteer some time. Hey, it could be a good thing.
Speaker 3: You can donate to certain charities and give it a shot.
Speaker 3: Might make it feel better.
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
Speaker 4: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 4: donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll
Speaker 4: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
Speaker 4: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
Speaker 4: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
Speaker 4: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 4: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 4: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
Speaker 4: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one