WEBVTT - #039 Jason Flom with Kian Khatibi 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:05.840 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.039 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.080 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.640 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:17.240 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:18.239 I hadn't do anything wrong. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.120 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.720 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.640 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.520 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.240 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.560 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:41.320 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:43.199 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.720 Don't presume that people are guilty when you seem on TV, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.040 because it may just be a dirty da that is 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:52.320 trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:18.320 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.759 Jason Flamm. Today I have very special guests Keon Katibi, 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.480 who's going to tell you a story that will well, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.160 it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken, 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:30.119 Welcome to the show. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:31.920 Thank you, good to be here. 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:36.199 So Keon, ironically, I guess you could say, is from Pleasantville, 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.440 New York, and you grew up in sort of a 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.640 nuclear family, sort of a normal childhood pretty much. 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.200 Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.800 year and a half apart, and I'm the number two. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.320 And the crux of your story all revolves around a 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.640 tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.760 lock Stock and Barrel eight. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:02.320 That's where it all started. 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:04.840 Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.120 in a fight in this bar, and at the time 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.280 that it happened, you were in the police station, which 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.640 is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.520 much of a better alibi than that it was hidden. 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.360 But there's video that exists that proves that you were 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.160 in the police station at the time of the stabbing, 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.800 and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway, So let's 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:27.160 go back to that fateful day or that faithful night, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.160 I should say, when you were in that bar, What 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.760 was going on? How did this fight happen? How did 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:33.560 you end up going to the police state. I mean, 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.200 it's all so nuts. 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.280 Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a good place to start. Well, 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.480 I was inside of the bar Lockstock and barrel in 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:48.160 the village of Pleusbonville, Westchester County, New York, and i'd 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.200 just gotten there. I think I was there maybe under 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:52.200 ten minutes. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.160 And there was a scuffle. 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.359 There was a I guess a group of young folks 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.280 and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.320 college bar and there was a scuffle and I got 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.840 pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.320 I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar. 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.040 A little shorter than me is stocky guy, and he 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.440 grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.480 and I put my hand to push him away. 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.480 He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:25.560 And at that time, the bouncer was standing at the 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.880 door and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle. 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.480 I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.360 just focusing on the guy who had his arm around 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.040 my collar and squeezing my shirt. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:37.680 That's reasonable, you know. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.800 And the bouncer grab my shoulder and says, hey, you 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:42.880 got to get out of here. 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.120 So I left. You know, I obliged. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.040 I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.120 deserve to stay, you know, So I walk out, and 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.520 the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:55.440 you were the closest guy to me, and I just 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:57.040 had to get a grip on the situation. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:58.960 So I left. 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.320 I went to seven to eleven store to get some coffee, 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.160 and you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:10.440 all my friends are inside. I came with them. At 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.680 this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.080 I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.920 I get home? Do I go tell my friends? And 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.839 you know, we're nineteen ninety eight. Everybody doesn't have a 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.640 cell phone, er nothing like that. That's just not going on. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.640 So you know, maybe a few people at that time, 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:35.159 if I recall correctly, had what they call pagers. Right, yeah, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.279 So I'm thinking what do I do? So I start 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.040 walking back toward the bar and saying, maybe I can 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.200 see someone outside, make sure everyone my friends knew at 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.360 least I was kicked out and that I'm going home, 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:47.120 or maybe they're leaving too soon. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:48.880 I'll get a ride, right, right. 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.960 So I start walking back to the bar and there's 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.320 a huge parking lot on one of the sides of 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.080 the lock stock and barrel, bar or pub, whatever you 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.240 call it. And then I see a group there. There's 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:06.200 altercation and there's yelling and screaming. But I walk a 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.760 little closer because I, you know, it didn't think it 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.200 involved me and didn't at that time. 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:13.599 It's also the way back to the bar. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.839 That I have to go, so I get a little 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.240 closer and seems these guys are just like arguing and 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.320 screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind, 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.400 I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.839 here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me. 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.919 And I go to walk past them and one of 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.919 the guys points at me and says, hey, there's the 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:36.440 guy from the bar. In my head, I'm just like, 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.600 oh my god. And I'm thinking, is that one of 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.560 the guys who had me by the collar or one 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.760 of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it wasn't enough that 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.479 I just got kicked out of the bar. Now they're like, hey, 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.200 that's him. Like so I kind of steer around the 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.560 group to get to the sidewalk because I don't want 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.799 anything to do with that. And the guy's still yelling 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:58.960 and it looks like he wanted to come after me 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:00.599 or to hit the tone of his voice. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:02.480 So, you know, and I'm a small guy. 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.159 You know, at that time, I think I weighed like 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.800 one hundred and forty five pounds at you know, five nine, 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.240 so that's probably as light as you can get. You know. 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.839 I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.720 and everything. And you know, these guys are some they 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:19.120 were both actually football players. Oh so it's very intimidating 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:19.400 for me. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.359 Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.479 this is not a great night so far. Yeah, exactly, exactly, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.760 but it's about to get a lot worse. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.240 It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.839 was the beginning of the next ten years of downward spiral, 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.240 you know, until the light, so till the hard fought 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.400 light that is. So I managed to get past them 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.640 and past them. Right across the street is the train station. 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:47.360 I walked past them. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.039 I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:53.320 train station. And it's this downstairs in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.200 it's maybe like thirty steps, and you know, it's a 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.200 big carve out and it's kind of like, you know, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:06:59.719 a dip in the ground, so it's like a big 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.480 ex chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.120 all around here in this down in this pit in 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:06.200 the middle of Pleasantville. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.320 And I start hearing all this. 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.400 Yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.680 down there, and I'm just thinking, what what is going 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.560 on there? So I get I get nervous a little 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.280 because one I was just kicked out of the bar. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.800 Two the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.400 I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.680 what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey, 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.040 I saw that guy go down the train station steps. 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.960 Let's go find them, you know, And this is what's 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:36.040 going through my mind. 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:38.400 At least, you know, logically, I think it was. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:39.480 I thought it was. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.560 Reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.760 a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big a person. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.280 So I come back up the steps of the train 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.320 station and I just kind of positioned myself right next 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.920 to the police station door, which is on the other 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.120 side of the train station. And when I hear the 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:03.160 train coming I'll walk down and grab the train. So 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.280 I'm I'm laughing, but it's like, actually. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.520 All of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know, 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.440 you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:12.640 police station for protection. 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.360 At the time I thought it was too but you know, 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:20.560 in hindsight, I see that every step I made was apparently, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:25.400 you know, a step toward the fatal results which occurred. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.280 And you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.960 the police station. I was about, well, we actually know, 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.680 because there's there's time stamps and stuff, right, we know 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.440 you went to the police station at one twelve in 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:38.440 the morning, right, and then and then what happened. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.880 I was outside waiting to listen to the train to 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.120 go back down, just for safety reasons, also to hear 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.400 tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking, 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.679 is that related to the fight? Did the folks get 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.120 into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.400 they driving around looking for people? It's going to be 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.840 one of those like a brawls between villages, you know, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.160 because there's rivalries in some of these towns, like football 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.920 rivalries or whatever. Hawthorne, Westlake and I was thinking, oh, 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.920 maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:12.600 hear these tire screeches, and all of a sudden, I 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:17.040 hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.480 like they were screaming, like a horror film or something 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.880 like that. My heart just jumped out of me at 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:27.280 that time, and I ran into the police station and 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.320 there was a glass wall there in the desk. Officer 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.800 and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen. 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.480 I was just coming from down the road from you know, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.240 the seven to eleven, walking back past the lockstock and barrel, 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.640 and there was some guys that were after me, and 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.160 I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by the 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.559 train station alone, and I just worried that they might 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:54.800 come and find me, and I guess fight me. 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.480 That's what's going through my mind. At least. 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.280 I asked if I could get a ride to a 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.199 police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:04.800 are probably like a mile apart, you know. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.280 And the officer said, yeah, come here, here's some water. 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.240 Sure I can give your ride to the Hawthorn train station, 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.960 no problem, give me a second, And so I sat down, 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.600 I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.400 feel like, you know, that's it. I did what I 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.480 had to do to take care of myself at least 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:25.520 for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.199 to the train station, go home, and that'll be that 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.560 about it. I guess less than a minute around that 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.200 time goes by and the officer comes back around to 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.800 me and says, hey, listen, I can give you a ride, 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.320 but I've got to go run and answer this call. 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.880 And I don't know what time I'm coming back, so 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.640 I can give your ride, but you have to wait 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.480 and night. I have no idea when I'm coming back. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.079 So I said, okay, well thanks, and then he. 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:55.760 Just like gunned it out the door. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.640 So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.400 I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.240 and I do have to get home, So I get 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.760 up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.160 my way home that night, and I thought that was the. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:10.559 End of it. 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.960 Well when did you find out what actually happened that 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.440 night at the bar, Because it turned out to be 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.560 a lot more than what you thought. Right, A couple 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:19.439 of people were stabbed. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.920 Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:24.960 about it the next. 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.920 Day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:29.840 find out that there were a couple of people stabbed 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:31.240 in the bar. As it turns out, they were so 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.160 drunk they didn't even realize they had been stabbed until 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:34.680 they came out. But one guy was in the hospital 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.079 for a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it was a 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.720 pretty pretty serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.360 are trying to figure out who did it right exactly, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.000 and how the hell did they land on you when 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:47.800 you were in the police station at the time of 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.880 the stabbing. Let's talk about this. How did you end 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.800 up getting convicted because most of the witnesses said you 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:53.280 weren't there. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.000 Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of torturous to 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.640 explain how we got from A to B, but I'll 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:01.760 give it my best shot. 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.560 So there was about two weeks that went by. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.920 In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.000 and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.240 that the victims were found actually down the block in 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.880 front of the Bank of New York and another bar, 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.400 you know, but I kind of put some things together 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.440 and say, oh, that probably had something to do with 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.400 the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:33.040 on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, I'm in Pleasantville, 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.880 down by the Piete Seria. You know, my mom still 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:37.880 lived there at the time, as well as brothers and 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:43.640 sisters and a detective, Detective Masie of the Pleasantville Police Department. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.560 I guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know, 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.840 and I'm actually on the same block as the police department, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.679 and out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know, 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.040 he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.880 two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six feet. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.439 And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keon, 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.800 come here, you know. And I walk over to him 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.760 and he says, you come with me right now. You 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.120 talk to me what happened a couple weeks ago. And 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.720 I said, well, tell me what you're talking about. 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:15.560 I don't know. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.760 He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.680 told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now, 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:23.920 but here's my card. If you want to, you know, 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.280 calm down and we'll make an appointment. I'll come in 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.400 and speak with you. But I have other things to 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.720 do right now. You know, I have a job. I 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.000 work evenings as a waiter. And he got so pissed off, 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.840 Like the anger in his face it was, it was 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.440 just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.760 don't want to talk to me? Then all right, a 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:51.120 few and he jams his finger into my nose and 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.160 it like stung me. And I'm just in shock right there, 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.120 and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't know what 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.320 to do, Like what's next, you know, is he going 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.560 to like drag me away? Is he going to like 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:03.559 take me into a van? 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.480 And I don't know all this stuff. I'm like, you know, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.800 I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away. 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.959 I stand there for a minute and then I walk away. 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.200 When I go home, I go to work, My day 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:22.440 goes on. I contemplate calling them and making an appointment, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.360 but I'm not sure. I don't want to go and 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:30.080 face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then I 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.640 think about two weeks go by, and a couple of 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.800 my friends call me up or tell me. I don't 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.280 recall exactly when I but when I see them or 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.360 hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.360 with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, are 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.280 you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.080 They showed me the warrant and they said they're looking 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:50.360 for you. 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.400 And I said, did you immediately think that it was 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.960 for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:56.920 hell could they possibly be looking for me for? 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.560 Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.880 It's not like I was out there doing all sorts 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:02.680 of stuff where they. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:07.880 You weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay, 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.040 So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:10.680 what happens? 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.280 Well, I call a lawyer and I tell them a story. 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.560 I say, you know, my friend's telling me there's a 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.600 warrant for my arrest. And the lawyer's like, well, did 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.280 you see it? And I was like, well no, because 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.080 you know then I probably would have been arrested by 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.000 the time I saw it. But I'd like to know, 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.560 how do we handle this? You know, do I turn 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.480 myself in, do we call them, do they come. 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:27.880 Pick me up? 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.920 And so we arranged a date for me to turn 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.720 myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did, 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.240 and I think it was February fourth of nineteen ninety eight. 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.760 I went and turned myself in. I was I was arrested. 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.320 I was held in county jail for about a week 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:50.520 without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville. 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.360 I went to the felony hearing. There was two victims. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.440 One of the victims is testifying about how we thinks 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.640 that I stabbed them this and that, and it was 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.760 held over for indictment. I was indicted. I went to trial, 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.320 and I was convicted. Of course, you know, there's a 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.920 lot more in between to the story, but that's uh, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:11.360 that's the timeline there. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.120 But both of the victims was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.080 And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.080 time they were stad. They were so heavily intoxicated that 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.040 they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.040 along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:26.880 there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:28.760 do you have to be to not know you were stabbed. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.400 Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:39.760 blood alcohol content BAC was greater than point three and 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.440 that's all it registered on his blood test. And I 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.840 think the way the hospital had it set up, if 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:46.800 you're greater than point three, I mean that was that 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.680 was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.600 eight point one, but uh, greater than point three was 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.440 was the max. They don't go higher and that and 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.640 that's a state where you can, according to the consensus, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.120 like you can black out whose consciousness you potentially you 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.119 could die from alcohol poisoning. Sure, at that level. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:07.840 Let's talk about that for a second. I think for 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.919 drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.720 when you're at point three, that means you're about four 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.439 times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.360 the point where, yes, you can have a cute alcohol 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.080 poisoning and you can die. And it's interesting because at trial, 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.200 neither one of them was able to identify you as 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:27.360 the assailant, right. 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.119 Yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:35.360 or they saw me stab them, but they made conclusions 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.879 that must have been me that stabbed them, and you know, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.359 and that the jury was allowed to hear that, and 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.400 that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.680 shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter or. 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:48.840 To show the jury. 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:53.360 Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.360 when in fact I didn't. 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.040 Well, we know now that there are a number of reasons. 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.919 The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.879 lead to wrongful identifications in so many cases. Right, the 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.720 police showed a photo lineup with you in it and 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.520 showed it to the victims and told them that the 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:19.200 actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.960 of things they did that are at a minimum bad 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.960 police work. And I think that's one of the factors 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.119 that happened in your case that led to you being 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.920 identified as the sale even though you weren't even there. 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:31.800 That's one of the main factors. 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.440 Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:35.200 you to get to trial? 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.880 It took a little over one year. 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.439 So you were in jail the whole time. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:40.960 I actually bailed out. 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.280 I was out on five thousand dollars bail, So before trial, 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.359 I was out on bail, and during trial, I was 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.480 I guess, lucky enough to be out on bail. 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.960 It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right, 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.240 That would indicate to me that the judge who set 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.679 to bail was not very concerned that you were going 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.800 to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:04.879 certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand. I mean that's 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:06.520 almost like a misdemeanor type of bail. 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:07.760 Yeah. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.480 Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.600 the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.360 in the case and set the bail at five thousand, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:21.199 and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.000 occurred in February of ninety eight, and the trial occurred 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.480 in February of ninety nine, so there was a whole 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.880 year there to prepare and you know, fix up the weaknesses. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.080 And I guess those are nice words to use, because 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.399 the real words I should use is they had a 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:43.320