Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of corrupt detective. I was
Speaker 1: not eve enough to believe that I would be able
Speaker 1: to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
Speaker 1: that they would investigate adequately and so that I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be going to prison because I was a good person.
Speaker 1: I hadn't anything wrong. In the back of your mind,
Speaker 1: you say, well, when we go to a hearing, we
Speaker 1: go to court, the truth will come out. The prosecution
Speaker 1: from day one knew I was innocent and let force
Speaker 1: testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all way up
Speaker 1: to the United States Supreme Court. You have someone with
Speaker 1: a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority.
Speaker 1: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them
Speaker 1: on TV, because it may just be a dirty d
Speaker 1: ai that is trying to rise upward. This is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam Today, I
Speaker 1: have very special guest, Kian Katib, who's going to tell
Speaker 1: you a story that will well, it'll probably blow your
Speaker 1: mind because it blows mine. Ken, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you good to be here. So Keion. Ironically, I
Speaker 1: guess you could say is from Pleasantville, New York, and
Speaker 1: you grew up in sort of a nuclear family, sort
Speaker 1: of normal childhood pretty much. Yeah, there was five of us,
Speaker 1: all about a year year and a half apart, and
Speaker 1: I'm I'm the number two. And the crux of your
Speaker 1: story all revolves around a tragic incident that happened in
Speaker 1: a bar in Pleasantville called lock Stock and Barrel and nine.
Speaker 1: That's where it all started. Yes, that's where it all started.
Speaker 1: Two people were stabbed in a fight in this bar,
Speaker 1: and at the time that had happened, you were in
Speaker 1: the police station, which is just sort of like, I mean,
Speaker 1: you can't have much of a better alibi than that
Speaker 1: that was hidden. But there's video that exists that proves
Speaker 1: that you were in the police station at the time
Speaker 1: of the stabbing, and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So let's go back to that faithful day or that
Speaker 1: faithful night, I should say, when you were in that bar,
Speaker 1: What was going on? How did this fight happen? How
Speaker 1: did you end up going to the police state. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's all so nuts. Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a
Speaker 1: good place to start. Well, I was inside of the
Speaker 1: bar Lockstock and Barrel, in the village of Pleasantville, Westchester County,
Speaker 1: New York. And I just got in there. I think
Speaker 1: I was there maybe under ten minutes, and there was
Speaker 1: a scuffle. There was a I guess a group of
Speaker 1: young folks and everybody in there was in their twenties,
Speaker 1: most likely college bar, and there was a scuffle and
Speaker 1: I got pushed on the back and kind of like bumped,
Speaker 1: and I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.
Speaker 1: A little shorter than me is document. He grabbed me
Speaker 1: by the collar and starts lifting me up and I
Speaker 1: put my hand to push him away. He's assaulting me,
Speaker 1: harassing me at the very least. And at that time
Speaker 1: I the bouncer was standing at the door, and he
Speaker 1: turned around he saw some kind of scuffle. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure exactly what was going on. I was just focusing
Speaker 1: on the guy who had his arm around my collar
Speaker 1: and squeezing my shirt, you know. And the bouncer grabbed
Speaker 1: my shoulder and says, hey, you gotta get out of here.
Speaker 1: So I left, you know, I obliged. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to sit there and argue, hey, I deserve to stay,
Speaker 1: I don't, you know. So I walk out and the
Speaker 1: bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but you
Speaker 1: were the closest guy to me, and I just had
Speaker 1: to get a grip on the situation. So I left.
Speaker 1: I want a seven eleven store to get some coffee.
Speaker 1: And you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 1: all my friends are inside. I came with them. At
Speaker 1: this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although
Speaker 1: I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do
Speaker 1: I get home? Uh? Do I go tell my friends?
Speaker 1: And you know, we're everybody doesn't have a cell phone, no,
Speaker 1: nothing like that. That's just not going on. So, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe a few people at that time, if I recall correctly,
Speaker 1: had what they called pages. Yeah, so I'm thinking what
Speaker 1: do I do? So I start walking back toward the
Speaker 1: bar and saying, maybe I can see someone outside, make
Speaker 1: sure everyone my friends knew at least I was kicked
Speaker 1: out and that I'm going home, or maybe they're leaving
Speaker 1: too soon. I'll get her ride. So I started walking
Speaker 1: back to the bar and um, there's a huge parking
Speaker 1: lot on one of the sides of the lock Stock
Speaker 1: and Barrel bar or pub whenever you call it, And
Speaker 1: then I see a group there's altercation and there's yelling
Speaker 1: and screaming, but I walk a little closer because I,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't think it involved me and didn't
Speaker 1: at that time. It's also the way back to the
Speaker 1: bar that I have to go, so I get a
Speaker 1: little closer and it seems these guys are just like
Speaker 1: arguing and screaming with each other some some dumb stuff.
Speaker 1: In my mind, I'm like, oh, there's a couple of
Speaker 1: drunk folks out here arguing, you know, has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with me. And I go to walk past them
Speaker 1: and one of the guy's points at me and says, hey,
Speaker 1: there's the guy from from the bar. In my head,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh my god, and I'm thinking, is
Speaker 1: that one of the guys who had me by the
Speaker 1: collar or one of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it
Speaker 1: wasn't enough that I just got kicked out of the bar.
Speaker 1: Now now now they're like, hey, that's him, Like so um.
Speaker 1: I kind of steer around the group to get to
Speaker 1: the sidewalk because I'm don't want anything to do with that,
Speaker 1: and the guys still yelling and it looks like he
Speaker 1: wanted to come after me or to hit the tone
Speaker 1: of his voice. So, you know, and I'm a small guy,
Speaker 1: you know. At that time, I think I weighed like
Speaker 1: a dty five pounds at you know, five nine, so
Speaker 1: that's probably as light as you can get. You know.
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs
Speaker 1: and everything. And you know, these guys are some there.
Speaker 1: We're both actually football players. So it's very intimidating for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like, this
Speaker 1: is not a great night so far. But yeah, exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: but it's about to get a lot worse. It's about
Speaker 1: to get a lot worse. In fact, that was the
Speaker 1: beginning of the next ten years of of downward spiral,
Speaker 1: you know, until the light, so until the hard fought
Speaker 1: light that is. So I managed to get past them
Speaker 1: and past them right across the street as the train station.
Speaker 1: I walked past them. I said, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: I'm going to the train station. And it's this downstairs
Speaker 1: in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs, it's maybe like thirty steps
Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's a big carve out and
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, you know, a dip in the ground.
Speaker 1: So it's like a big co chamber right there, because
Speaker 1: there's you know, concrete walls all around here in this
Speaker 1: down in this pit in the middle of Pleasantville. And
Speaker 1: I started hearing all this yelling and screaming from the
Speaker 1: bar and it's just echoing down there, and I'm just thinking,
Speaker 1: what what is going on there? So I get I
Speaker 1: get nervous a little because one I was just kicked
Speaker 1: out of the bar to the guys were saying, hey,
Speaker 1: there's that guy. So I'm like, you know, I just
Speaker 1: didn't feel safe, Like what happens if one of them,
Speaker 1: in their drunken stupor says, hey, I saw that guy
Speaker 1: go down the train station steps. Let's go find them,
Speaker 1: you know, And this this is what's going through my mind.
Speaker 1: At least, you know, I think I thought it was
Speaker 1: reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not
Speaker 1: a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big person. So
Speaker 1: I come back up the steps of the train station
Speaker 1: and I just kind of positioned myself right next to
Speaker 1: the police station door, which is on the other side
Speaker 1: of the train station. And when I hear the train coming,
Speaker 1: I'll walk down and grab the train. So I'm and
Speaker 1: I'm laughing, but it's like, actually, all of this sounds
Speaker 1: very rational to me. Actually, you know you're I mean,
Speaker 1: that's you're going to go to the police station for protection.
Speaker 1: At the time I thought it was too but you know,
Speaker 1: in hindsight, I see that every step I made I
Speaker 1: was was apparently, you know, a step toward the fatal
Speaker 1: results which which occurred, and you couldn't have predicted that.
Speaker 1: So you go to the police station. Now it's about, well,
Speaker 1: we actually know because there's there's time stamps and stuff. Right,
Speaker 1: we know you went to the police station at one
Speaker 1: twelve in the morning, right, and then and then what happened.
Speaker 1: I was outside waiting to listen to the train to
Speaker 1: go back down just for safety reasons alsome to hear
Speaker 1: tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: is that related to the fight that the folks get
Speaker 1: into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are
Speaker 1: they driving around looking for people? It's it's going to
Speaker 1: be one of those like brawls between villages, you know,
Speaker 1: because there's rivalries in in some of these towns, like
Speaker 1: football rivalries or whatever, Hawthorne, west Lake. And I was thinking, uh,
Speaker 1: maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I
Speaker 1: hear these tire screations, and all of a sudden, I
Speaker 1: hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded
Speaker 1: like they were screaming, like a horror film or something
Speaker 1: like that. My heart just jumped out of me at
Speaker 1: that time, and I ran into the police station and
Speaker 1: there was a glass wall there in the desk officer
Speaker 1: and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen,
Speaker 1: I was just coming from down the road from you know,
Speaker 1: the seven eleven, walking back past the lock stock and barrel,
Speaker 1: and um, there was some guys that were after me,
Speaker 1: and I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by
Speaker 1: the train station alone. And I just worried that they
Speaker 1: might come and find me, and I guess fight me.
Speaker 1: That's what's going through my mind. At least. I asked
Speaker 1: if I could get a ride to uh police station
Speaker 1: next door, because in Westchester the train stations are probably
Speaker 1: like a mile apart, you know. And the officer said, yeah,
Speaker 1: come here here some water. Sure I can give you
Speaker 1: a ride to the Hawthorn train station, no problem, give
Speaker 1: me a second. And so I sat down. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, that's it. I did what I had to
Speaker 1: do to take care of myself, at least for that moment.
Speaker 1: I'll be able to get a ride to the train station,
Speaker 1: go home, and and that'll be that about it. I
Speaker 1: guess less than a minute around around that time goes
Speaker 1: by in the officer comes back around to me and says, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: I can give you a ride, but I've got to
Speaker 1: go run and answer this call. And I don't know
Speaker 1: what time I'm coming back, so I can give you
Speaker 1: a ride, but you have to wait, and I have
Speaker 1: no idea what I'm coming back. So I said, okay,
Speaker 1: well thanks, and then he just like gunned it out
Speaker 1: the door. So I'm sitting there and I finished my water,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my
Speaker 1: ride and I do have to get home, So I
Speaker 1: get up and I leave, and you know, eventually I
Speaker 1: find my way home that night, And I thought that
Speaker 1: was the end of it. When did you find out
Speaker 1: what actually happened that night at the bar, Because they
Speaker 1: turned out to be a lot more than what you thought. Right,
Speaker 1: A couple of people were stabbed. Well, Pleasantville is a
Speaker 1: small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking about it the next day, Okay,
Speaker 1: so yeah, so the word gets around. You find out
Speaker 1: that there were a couple of people stabbed in the
Speaker 1: bar that as it turns out, they were so drunk
Speaker 1: that didn't even realize they had been stabbed until they
Speaker 1: came out. But one guy was in the hospital for
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, so it's a pretty a pretty
Speaker 1: serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops are trying
Speaker 1: to figure out who did it right exactly, and how
Speaker 1: the hell did they land on you when you were
Speaker 1: in the police station at the time of the stabbing.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this. How did you end up getting
Speaker 1: convicted because most of the witnesses said you weren't there. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, it's kind of tortuous to explain
Speaker 1: how we got from A to B, but I'll give
Speaker 1: it my best shot. So there was about two weeks
Speaker 1: that went by. In the interim, I'm just getting all
Speaker 1: these rumors, you know, and friends are talking about folks
Speaker 1: getting stabbed this, and that the victims were found actually
Speaker 1: down the block in front of the Bank of New
Speaker 1: York and another bar, you know, but I kind of
Speaker 1: put some things together and say, oh, that probably had
Speaker 1: something to do with the altercation that was at lock
Speaker 1: Stock and Barrel. And on January, I'm in Pleasantville, down
Speaker 1: by the pizzeria. You know. My mom still lived there
Speaker 1: at the time, as well as brothers and sisters and
Speaker 1: a detective, Detective Mazie of the Pleasantville Police Department. I
Speaker 1: guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know, and
Speaker 1: it's I'm actually on the same block as the police department.
Speaker 1: And out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,
Speaker 1: he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least
Speaker 1: two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six ft.
Speaker 1: And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keian,
Speaker 1: come here, you know. And I walk over him and
Speaker 1: he says, you come with me right now. You talk
Speaker 1: to me what happened a couple of weeks ago. And
Speaker 1: I said, well, tell me what you're talking about. I
Speaker 1: don't know. He goes on about Saturday night, this and that.
Speaker 1: I told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you
Speaker 1: right now, but here's my card if you want to,
Speaker 1: you know, calm down. And we'll make an appointment. I'll
Speaker 1: come in and speak with you, but I have other
Speaker 1: things to do right now. You know, I have a job.
Speaker 1: I work evenings as a waiter. And he got so
Speaker 1: piste off, like the anger in his face it was,
Speaker 1: it was just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says,
Speaker 1: you don't want to talk to me, then all right,
Speaker 1: f you, and he jams his finger into my notes
Speaker 1: and it like stung me. And I'm just in shock
Speaker 1: right there, and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do, Like what's next? You know, it's
Speaker 1: he gonna like drag me away? Is he gonna like
Speaker 1: take me into a van? And I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: know all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I'm at
Speaker 1: a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away. I
Speaker 1: stand there for a minute and then I walk away.
Speaker 1: When I go home, art go to work, my day
Speaker 1: goes on. I I contemplate calling him and make an appointment,
Speaker 1: but I'm but I'm not sure. I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: want to go and face more of that hostility, that's
Speaker 1: for sure. Then, UM I think about two weeks go by,
Speaker 1: and um, a couple of my friends call me up
Speaker 1: or or tell me. I don't recall exactly when I
Speaker 1: but when I see them or hear from them, they say, hey,
Speaker 1: the police are out with a warrant for your arrest.
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they came. They showed me the warrant and they said
Speaker 1: they're looking for you. And I said, did you immediately
Speaker 1: think that it was for the stabbings or did you think, like,
Speaker 1: what the hell could they possibly be looking for me for? Well,
Speaker 1: that's the only thing I could put my finger on.
Speaker 1: It's not like I was out there doing all sorts
Speaker 1: of stuff where they you weren't like a master criminal. No, okay,
Speaker 1: So okay, So now they've got this warrant for your arrest.
Speaker 1: Now what happens? Well, I call a lawyer and I
Speaker 1: tell him a story. I said, you know, my friends
Speaker 1: telling me there's a warrant for my arrest, and the
Speaker 1: lawyers like, well, did you see it? And I was like,
Speaker 1: well no, because you know then I probably would have
Speaker 1: been arrested by the time I saw it. But I'd
Speaker 1: like to know, how do we handle this? You know,
Speaker 1: do I turn myself in. Do we call them, did
Speaker 1: they come pick me up? And so we arranged um
Speaker 1: a date for me to turn myself in on the warrant.
Speaker 1: So that's what we did. And I think it was
Speaker 1: February four when it turned myself in. I was I
Speaker 1: was arrested. I was held in um County jail for
Speaker 1: about a week without bail until I had a felony
Speaker 1: hearing in Pleasantville. I want to the felony hearing, there
Speaker 1: was two victims. One of the victims is testifying about
Speaker 1: how he uh thinks that I stabbed him this and that,
Speaker 1: and it was held over for indictment. I was indicted.
Speaker 1: I went to trial and I was convicted. Of course,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot more in between to the story,
Speaker 1: but that that's uh, that's the timeline there. But both
Speaker 1: of the victims, it was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,
Speaker 1: And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the time.
Speaker 1: They were sad. They were so heavily intoxicated that they
Speaker 1: didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came along
Speaker 1: and lifted up their shirt and said, how come there's
Speaker 1: all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk do
Speaker 1: you have to be to not know you were stabbed? Well, Boyer,
Speaker 1: according to his hospital record, he was His blood alcohol
Speaker 1: content B a C was greater than point three and
Speaker 1: that's all it registered on on his blood test. And
Speaker 1: I think the way the hospital had it set up,
Speaker 1: if you're greater than point three, I mean that was
Speaker 1: that was all they showed. You know, they'll show point
Speaker 1: zero eight point one, but greater than point three was
Speaker 1: was the max. They don't go higher and that and
Speaker 1: that's a state where you can um according to the consensus,
Speaker 1: like you can black out, you whose consciousness you potentially
Speaker 1: you could die from alcohol poisoning at that level. Let's
Speaker 1: talk it for a second. I think for drunk driving
Speaker 1: the limit is point zero eight, right, So when you're
Speaker 1: at point three, that means you're about four times the
Speaker 1: legal limit for driving, and you're getting to the point where, yes,
Speaker 1: you can have acute alcohol poisoning and you can die.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because at trial, neither one of them
Speaker 1: was able to identify you as the assailant, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them or
Speaker 1: they saw me stabbed them, but they made conclusions that
Speaker 1: it must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,
Speaker 1: and that the jury was allowed to hear that and that,
Speaker 1: and that they believed I stabbed them. That was a
Speaker 1: real shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter
Speaker 1: or to show the jury. Why Why did these victims
Speaker 1: believe that I stabbed them when in fact I didn't.
Speaker 1: Well we know now that there are a number of reasons.
Speaker 1: The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know
Speaker 1: lead to wrong flight identifications in so many cases. Right,
Speaker 1: the police showed a photo lineup with you in it
Speaker 1: and showed it to the victims and told them that
Speaker 1: the actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a
Speaker 1: number of things they did that are that are at
Speaker 1: a minimum bad police work. And I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the factors that happened in your case that led
Speaker 1: to you being identified as as the sailing even though
Speaker 1: you weren't even there. That's one of the main factors. Yes,
Speaker 1: so you're a trial. How long did it take you
Speaker 1: to get to trial? It took a little over one year,
Speaker 1: so you're in jail the whole time I actually bailed out.
Speaker 1: I was out on five thousand dollars bail, so before trial,
Speaker 1: I was out on bail, and during trial, I was
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, lucky enough to to be out
Speaker 1: on bail. It's interesting that they set bail at five
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, right, That would indicate to me that the
Speaker 1: judge who set the bail was not very concerned that
Speaker 1: you were going to be around stabbing anybody, because if
Speaker 1: they were, they certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand.
Speaker 1: Mean that's almost like a misdemeanor type of bail. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: when we went to the felony hearing, I think the
Speaker 1: judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses in
Speaker 1: the case and set the bail at five thousand, and
Speaker 1: I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing occurred
Speaker 1: in February of and the trial occurred in February of nine,
Speaker 1: so there was a whole year there to prepare and
Speaker 1: you know, fix up the weaknesses. And I guess those
Speaker 1: are nice words to use, because the real words I
Speaker 1: should use is they had a whole year to destroy evidence,
Speaker 1: to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence, and to coerce these
Speaker 1: witnesses to testify against me. So by the time I
Speaker 1: went to trial, you know, it was pretty much guaranteed
Speaker 1: lights out. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty incredible when you
Speaker 1: think about, again, this is New York. You're a guy
Speaker 1: who's not the typical defendant, you know, you you hadn't
Speaker 1: really had a lot of altercations with the police before,
Speaker 1: and yet they did things that are so beyond the pale,
Speaker 1: including not handing over a bloody shirt and hat that
Speaker 1: were found at the crime scene, right, I mean, and
Speaker 1: then eventually claiming that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced,
Speaker 1: that's a nice word. Yeah, that was That was just ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning
Speaker 1: and doing that, or or how they explain why they
Speaker 1: did that. It's just it's ridiculous. Not only did they
Speaker 1: withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape that they knew had
Speaker 1: a time stamp on it that would have placed you
Speaker 1: at the police station at the time that the crime
Speaker 1: was being committed, which is right there, case closed done.
Speaker 1: That means they knew that you didn't do it, that
Speaker 1: they withheld that, they intimidated your friend Eric, right, who
Speaker 1: was in the bar. Yeah, well, I'd have to just
Speaker 1: say he was he was not my friend, but I
Speaker 1: didn't know who he was. Yeah, he was an associate.
Speaker 1: I mean he he would have been a friend if
Speaker 1: he was a a nicer person. Put I just wouldn't
Speaker 1: call him a friend. Okay. So they intimidated the acquaintance
Speaker 1: of yours named Eric Freud into implicating you. And we
Speaker 1: know from either way the cop behaved towards you, actually
Speaker 1: physically assaulting you on the street in front of the
Speaker 1: pizza place. We know that there's a lot of credibility
Speaker 1: to that claim. And then they also threatened the bouncer
Speaker 1: if he didn't implicate you, right, so they I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't want to believe that police behave like that.
Speaker 1: I grew up and I still believe that. You know, listen,
Speaker 1: most I think most police are good. I think as
Speaker 1: a society we need police. I'm not one of these
Speaker 1: people who's like an anarchist or something like. And I
Speaker 1: always say I'm not soft on crime. I'm tough on injustice. Right.
Speaker 1: I believe we need to have a system of laws.
Speaker 1: We need to have people in place, police, prosecutors. The
Speaker 1: old system has to function because it has to keep
Speaker 1: society safe. But when it's turned upside down, it's just
Speaker 1: it's it's so deeply disturbing to see what they can do,
Speaker 1: how they can grind somebody like you up. So, Kiah,
Speaker 1: now that you are a practicing attorney, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: get to that in a few minutes, because some of
Speaker 1: the stuff you're doing now is so fascinating. Looking back
Speaker 1: on your trial, do you feel that you were represented
Speaker 1: in an adequate manner? Well, I mean I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't and I hope I never represent someone myself as
Speaker 1: an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at trial
Speaker 1: by my attorney, then there was a lot of problems
Speaker 1: there with the defense. At the same time, I have
Speaker 1: to say to myself, well, how can a defense truly
Speaker 1: be effective if all the evidence is being withheld from
Speaker 1: the defense's You know, yeah, I mean you didn't have
Speaker 1: much of a chance. He would have needed the Clarence
Speaker 1: Darrow or the modern day version be Barry Schecked representing
Speaker 1: you to give yourself a fighting chance, and that's clearly
Speaker 1: not what you had. You weren't a rich guy, right,
Speaker 1: You couldn't afford the dream Team. I was on financial
Speaker 1: aid going to community college at that time. I had
Speaker 1: to put it politely, you were fucked, right, But then
Speaker 1: you got to trial, it was already it basically was
Speaker 1: a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,
Speaker 1: they were gonna get you. And that's exactly what they did.
Speaker 1: You get convicted and sentenced to what seven to fourteen years.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to imagine what was going through your mind
Speaker 1: when that happened. Well, like you had just said a
Speaker 1: few minutes ago, in your America, this doesn't happen. This
Speaker 1: type of behavior from police officers doesn't happen. And that's
Speaker 1: what I was thinking too, even after my arrest and
Speaker 1: during my trial, you know, and all I keep thinking is,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no way that the jury would convict me,
Speaker 1: or this judge will allow this even to get to
Speaker 1: a verdict based on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent,
Speaker 1: and I feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You
Speaker 1: don't get convicted of things you didn't do. Not in
Speaker 1: my America, right, And the last thing I think in
Speaker 1: my mind is that everyone would simply jump on board
Speaker 1: and push my head under the water. That's the last
Speaker 1: thing I thought would happen. And the whole time I
Speaker 1: was in prison, I thought, surely someone come with a
Speaker 1: helping hand and see see the injustice that has occurred here.
Speaker 1: But you know that that doesn't happen, you know, and
Speaker 1: you're stuck, always hoping for the next level. When you're
Speaker 1: in prison. At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested,
Speaker 1: I'll be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this
Speaker 1: was a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and
Speaker 1: the jury will see and the judge will see, and
Speaker 1: maybe even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,
Speaker 1: these are actually kind of naive thoughts looking back, they
Speaker 1: were naive thoughts. I mean, they're they're idealistic thoughts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors have
Speaker 1: a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always equate
Speaker 1: with justice. No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is
Speaker 1: something that needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There
Speaker 1: you have to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In
Speaker 1: your case, there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though
Speaker 1: a huge percentage of the evidence, and the most important
Speaker 1: evidence was with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and
Speaker 1: you still had a story to tell that that should
Speaker 1: have at least put some one of two of the
Speaker 1: jurors in a position to say, I can't it reasonably
Speaker 1: convict this guy. Which prison did you get sent to? Well, initially,
Speaker 1: I mean Westchester County Jail, almost almost for like a
Speaker 1: year there. It turns out that they apparently they forgot me.
Speaker 1: That's what I was told. After I was convicted, my
Speaker 1: bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail, and everybody,
Speaker 1: um I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted
Speaker 1: their upstate within two weeks. And there I am eight
Speaker 1: nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 1: So I actually called my mom and I said, can
Speaker 1: you call the jail and find out what's going on.
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be out of here to go upstate.
Speaker 1: Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,
Speaker 1: but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.
Speaker 1: I mean basically don't get to see anybody or anything.
Speaker 1: It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and
Speaker 1: she said, well, the state says they forgot you here,
Speaker 1: so they don't they didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork error.
Speaker 1: So I think in July I shipped up state to
Speaker 1: Downstaate Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After
Speaker 1: my mom called and I figured out that I was
Speaker 1: lingering over there in the county jail for a better
Speaker 1: half of a year. And that tells you something about
Speaker 1: just how bad jails are. And I think it's important
Speaker 1: for people to realize that you don't see the sunlight
Speaker 1: thinking about that. How insane is it that you, an
Speaker 1: innocent man, is actually asking can you please transfer me
Speaker 1: to it? Was that a maximum security prison? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're attracted transferred to a maximum security prison. So in
Speaker 1: prison now you're you're in this it even it sounds
Speaker 1: it just sounds scary right downstairs, just sounds like it
Speaker 1: was prison in general was it was very, very scary
Speaker 1: and intimidating. How did you survive in this environment? Well,
Speaker 1: the first thing I had to do was I guess,
Speaker 1: observe what's going on and find out what what I
Speaker 1: want to be involved with. So when I went up state,
Speaker 1: or even it started in the county jail, I realized
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of folks there in prison, in
Speaker 1: jail in general, who had or have drug problems and all.
Speaker 1: And there's no doubt that they continue to use drugs
Speaker 1: while in prison. And there's another large group which tends
Speaker 1: to gamble all the time. Some of them they'll talk
Speaker 1: to you, you know, without strangling. You are are rippons
Speaker 1: with about japage, right, So you know as a young,
Speaker 1: skinny twenty two year old that I was, and they'd say,
Speaker 1: they give some advice and they say, stay away from
Speaker 1: gambling and drugs and you're going to increase your chances
Speaker 1: of not getting a shank in the back. And I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, that really made sense. So I'm really not
Speaker 1: a gambler to begin with, you know, And the most
Speaker 1: I ever did back in high school was sunk some pots.
Speaker 1: So I thought, hey, I'm good. You know, I wasn't
Speaker 1: the type of guy who had proved myself. You know,
Speaker 1: that's not what I was there for. I wasn't there
Speaker 1: to earn my stripes in prison. You know. I was
Speaker 1: there because for things I didn't do. You know, I
Speaker 1: was not a big bad dude, and I think I am.
Speaker 1: I have ability to make people laugh as well and
Speaker 1: feel comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a
Speaker 1: lot of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk
Speaker 1: to me, and that includes you know some of the
Speaker 1: gang leaders, some of the old timers. You know, these
Speaker 1: are big time dudes in jail. They head up the
Speaker 1: gangs and and you know, I would talk with them,
Speaker 1: and they seem to be more you know, in control
Speaker 1: and calm. I guess because of their you know, a
Speaker 1: long experience. They were no longer going out doing wild things.
Speaker 1: Those were the younger folks in the prison generally, who
Speaker 1: are like stabbing up people or are doing crazy stuff
Speaker 1: for no reason. So I think I made I guess
Speaker 1: you could say, friends or whatever with with a few
Speaker 1: of them, and they respected me and think they knew
Speaker 1: that you were innocent. No, to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: that's probably the last thing you want to do going
Speaker 1: up state because there are folks there. They will pray,
Speaker 1: people prey on any whiff of weakness, any whiff of weakness,
Speaker 1: and it's really intense like that, and you just have
Speaker 1: to learn really quick what people interpret as weakness, because
Speaker 1: you will instantly get preyed upon. Like, for example, crossing
Speaker 1: my legs right here, right, No big deal. You look
Speaker 1: at it, you see anything go up there. It's twenty
Speaker 1: two years old and you're crossing your legs and in prison.
Speaker 1: The environment is it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real,
Speaker 1: but that's the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's
Speaker 1: just the machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic.
Speaker 1: You cross your legs, are you do anything that's considered
Speaker 1: not macho, and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft
Speaker 1: and or gay, and then you're preyed upon as someone
Speaker 1: who can be made fun of, our stolen from or
Speaker 1: a chump or a punk or whatever. So you really
Speaker 1: have to watch out for anything like that in the
Speaker 1: outside world, which you're just being yourself, you know, crossing
Speaker 1: my legs whatever. I mean, I'm not gay, but it
Speaker 1: wouldn't matter. I'm just saying any any indication. At the
Speaker 1: same time, you know, there's people that that sniff out
Speaker 1: newcomers and they'll try to watch your body language, how
Speaker 1: you hold your shoulders, and if and if there's a
Speaker 1: piece of weakness, they'll come up and they'll try to
Speaker 1: be your friend or this or that. You know, it
Speaker 1: might not find out for weeks later that they're actually
Speaker 1: preying on you, praying on your weakness to find out
Speaker 1: so that they can basically wrap you up in a
Speaker 1: corner someplace and demand your commissary. And I've seen this
Speaker 1: happen to so many people. It's rather sad. If that
Speaker 1: works out, then they go on to the next level
Speaker 1: of intimidation and they'll they'll have people call their family
Speaker 1: at home and say, hey, can you send me some
Speaker 1: pack of cigarettes? Can you send me some money? I'm
Speaker 1: in trouble here, and that money will go to, you know,
Speaker 1: an extort or someone else under threat of rape or
Speaker 1: or getting beat up, and and and then oftentimes you
Speaker 1: know it does lead to rape. But the person who
Speaker 1: you know, who's victimizing there is is just really a
Speaker 1: real intimidated person. It's also terrifying the whole idea of
Speaker 1: the eggshells you're walking on and having to learn a
Speaker 1: whole new, twisted culture and programming. And it's got to stop.
Speaker 1: I mean, being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured.
Speaker 1: There should be some some dignity in this process, and
Speaker 1: that is it's an affront. Two should be a front
Speaker 1: to everybody's sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness. So so
Speaker 1: here's where things get really nuts. Kean on November seven teen,
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home.
Speaker 1: Your dad was talking about how much he missed you
Speaker 1: and wish you were there and everything else, and then
Speaker 1: a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how
Speaker 1: easy this is for you to even talk about, but
Speaker 1: I mean, do you want to tell what happened or
Speaker 1: you want me to do it? Go ahead and then
Speaker 1: I'll fill in the blanks. So, having read the story,
Speaker 1: it was at that time that your brother, I think
Speaker 1: his name is pronounced Cavan, right, your brother Cavan, began
Speaker 1: weeping at the dinner table and admitted that he, in
Speaker 1: fact was the culprit. And I'm getting the chills as
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, and I'm trying to picture what the
Speaker 1: hell was going through your parents minds at this point
Speaker 1: in time, right, I mean, here they are talking about
Speaker 1: how much they miss you, as any parent would, and
Speaker 1: now learning not only that in fact, everything you've been
Speaker 1: saying all along was true, that you were innocent, but
Speaker 1: that the actual perpetrator is sitting at the dinner table
Speaker 1: with them, is your brother. Things start to progress from there, right,
Speaker 1: tell me how that things start to move at that point,
Speaker 1: because a new hearing of ultimately is held at which
Speaker 1: he's brought to the stand. Well, just to give you,
Speaker 1: I guess an abbreviated step by step timeline there. So
Speaker 1: after that um evening, you know, my father and brother, sisters.
Speaker 1: Eventually they came and saw me and UH and told
Speaker 1: me what occurred, and I said, okay, well this is
Speaker 1: what we should do now. Eventually it led to affidavits
Speaker 1: reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the two individuals
Speaker 1: being included an emotion what they call UH for fort
Speaker 1: emotion in New York, which is UH what you do
Speaker 1: after direct appeal to get facts off the record in
Speaker 1: and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.
Speaker 1: Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new
Speaker 1: trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,
Speaker 1: as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.
Speaker 1: But wait minute, be before we get to that. I'm
Speaker 1: at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.
Speaker 1: Was it both of your parents that came to the
Speaker 1: prison to tell you this news? No, my dad, Yeah,
Speaker 1: my mom was in Chicago at that time. So your
Speaker 1: dad comes to the prison and tells you that, in fact,
Speaker 1: your brother had admitted that it was it was he
Speaker 1: who had committed this crime for which you have now
Speaker 1: had eight years of your life stolen from you in
Speaker 1: the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like? Um, well,
Speaker 1: different people will have different reactions if they were in
Speaker 1: my position. But for me, I can tell you it
Speaker 1: was simply a feeling of relief. I just felt relieved
Speaker 1: because now you could see light at the end of
Speaker 1: the tunnel. Well, that's that's logical. You didn't feel rage.
Speaker 1: It was relief for a while. That ray did come.
Speaker 1: I mean I I did throughout the years that followed. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, possibly up until just a few years ago.
Speaker 1: All right, don't talk to my brother right now. For
Speaker 1: variety reasons. Obviously, you know, there's what happened here is
Speaker 1: one of them. But um, in the beginning, for at
Speaker 1: least a few months, it was just relief. It was
Speaker 1: just relief. You know, I was sitting there, stuck in prison,
Speaker 1: and and I couldn't I just couldn't figure out why
Speaker 1: I am there? How you know, how the state could
Speaker 1: have so much power over an individual's liberty with with
Speaker 1: without without providing enough circuit breakers, enough safety nets, you know,
Speaker 1: And I'm still there, amazingly as as fate would have
Speaker 1: it on septemberd and eight, which was your thirty third birthday. Right,
Speaker 1: You've got the best birthday present you could imagine. I
Speaker 1: definitely did you want to talk about that? Well? I
Speaker 1: was upstate, you know, where was I at this time? Hime?
Speaker 1: I think I was at Sing Sing Correctional facility. And
Speaker 1: they called me down to White Plains and I walked
Speaker 1: out in front of the judge on September. Meanwhile, I
Speaker 1: had a retrial ordered by this time, but it was
Speaker 1: just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped up
Speaker 1: and just said we would not oppose defendant's r O
Speaker 1: R release right now. And I heard that, and I
Speaker 1: was just like, I don't know, I'm luck atting lose
Speaker 1: consciousness at that time, just just hearing those words. So
Speaker 1: the judge caught me loose, caught me loose right then
Speaker 1: in the court room, and I was in this state
Speaker 1: issued clothing and I and I'm still surrounded by these officers,
Speaker 1: you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple muscle
Speaker 1: bound officers and all surrounding me with handcuffs and and
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. So what happened? Did they take
Speaker 1: the handcuffs off right then and there. But then you
Speaker 1: had to still change. It wasn't like you walk out
Speaker 1: into the daylight wearing a correction uh uniform. Right of
Speaker 1: the they gave me what's called the court uniform, which
Speaker 1: is like, I guess, it's always tight jeans. They always
Speaker 1: give somebody two sides is too small. But it was
Speaker 1: tight jeans like from the eighties. You know. So wait
Speaker 1: a bit, but you're in the courtroom, in the room,
Speaker 1: but you were still dressed in the state issued clothing. Now,
Speaker 1: at what point did you change into these tight jeans? Oh,
Speaker 1: right before I got into court, they say, here's a
Speaker 1: beige sweatshirt and jeans here, you can put them on
Speaker 1: so you don't have to go in front of the
Speaker 1: judge in your prison greens. Okay, So at that moment
Speaker 1: you almost collapse, right, but you didn't, And then did
Speaker 1: the courtroom break out? That moment must be etched in
Speaker 1: your memory permanently. I mean, well, if you take it
Speaker 1: back about one minute before the judge said that, you
Speaker 1: have an officer sitting down on my right side, an
Speaker 1: officer sitting down on my left side, and an officer
Speaker 1: behind me. And as they walk you in. Well, one
Speaker 1: guy you know who feels like he has like the
Speaker 1: hand of a of a guerrilla strength. You know, it's
Speaker 1: always the case as a hand on your shoulder and
Speaker 1: they're walking you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward,
Speaker 1: don't turn to the right, don't turn to the left.
Speaker 1: And to be honest with you, they mean that, don't
Speaker 1: turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head
Speaker 1: to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in
Speaker 1: the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,
Speaker 1: you you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.
Speaker 1: You know. They don't just take you down, you you
Speaker 1: get a beat down. So I'm sitting in this chair
Speaker 1: and then have officer like you can feel the breath
Speaker 1: on the back of your neck of these officers just
Speaker 1: waiting two take down a convicted violent felon for even
Speaker 1: moving your head to the right. And that was how
Speaker 1: it was until the judge said R O RT and
Speaker 1: I So I turned to my lawyer and I said,
Speaker 1: can I can I stand up? Can I'm free to go?
Speaker 1: And he says yes, and all the officers stand up
Speaker 1: and I get up and I say, you're on or
Speaker 1: I can leave. She says yes, you can leave. And
Speaker 1: I turned the officers and I say, I can go
Speaker 1: off those back doors. Yes. I had to ask the question,
Speaker 1: like I must have just kept repeating it to every
Speaker 1: single officer there before I even felt the courage to
Speaker 1: take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years
Speaker 1: I had been under the gun, and if you make
Speaker 1: any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are
Speaker 1: getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the hospital.
Speaker 1: And and there's no recourse for that. You know, you
Speaker 1: turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,
Speaker 1: you disrespected direct order, and uh, you know the way
Speaker 1: the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently
Speaker 1: there you can get taken down and a knee in
Speaker 1: the back and you know, a foot on the face,
Speaker 1: I guess, but you know that it was hard to
Speaker 1: believe and I and I and I really couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: I asked, I think I just repeated so many times,
Speaker 1: can I go out that door? Kind of go out
Speaker 1: that door? And I had to make sure because I felt,
Speaker 1: I felt it was unreal. And were your parents and
Speaker 1: family in the courtroom, Yeah, they started crying. So I
Speaker 1: actually walked over back at them in the seat, and
Speaker 1: I said, don't cry this, you know, this is a
Speaker 1: beautiful moment. Should be happy. And so I tried to
Speaker 1: be strong for them, and I tried myself not to
Speaker 1: cry because you know, I didn't want it to turn
Speaker 1: into one big weeping fest. And you know, I wanted
Speaker 1: I wanted to see some smiles on their face, you know,
Speaker 1: care about to my love then. And so we got
Speaker 1: up and left, and I left with my sisters and
Speaker 1: they took me to immediately, they took me to the
Speaker 1: mall to get bear jeans, and you know, that was
Speaker 1: that was a very interesting moment as well, because they're
Speaker 1: picking out jeans for me, you know, because my style
Speaker 1: is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these jeans on
Speaker 1: and they're all tight, and I'm telling them, I think
Speaker 1: this is really tight on my you know, my butt,
Speaker 1: and they're like, listen, it should be a lot tighter.
Speaker 1: We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.
Speaker 1: And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.
Speaker 1: I walked out and took me a few weeks to
Speaker 1: realize that that was probably just ordinary jeans right there,
Speaker 1: as opposed to when everybody was wearing more loose stuff,
Speaker 1: and so I got used to it, still going ten
Speaker 1: years later. So you ultimately graduate college and go to
Speaker 1: law school, not just any law school, n yucho, so
Speaker 1: let me correct you on that one. So I went
Speaker 1: to n y U undergrad and I graduated with honors.
Speaker 1: For law school, I went to Benjamin and Cardozo Law School,
Speaker 1: which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also
Speaker 1: the home of the Innocent Project, and that that's my
Speaker 1: that's my law school. So you went to n y U.
Speaker 1: He went from Community College, Pleasantville, Waiting Tables, maximum security prison,
Speaker 1: unbelievable ordeal and Saga two n YU one of the
Speaker 1: hardest schools in the world to get into and graduate
Speaker 1: with honors, and then to Cardoza Law School, which is
Speaker 1: the home of the Innisis Project, which is again a
Speaker 1: top top law school. And then you passed the bar,
Speaker 1: which is again I mean, that's an incredible accomplishment for anyone,
Speaker 1: much less someone who if your brain was was spaghetti,
Speaker 1: nobody would it would be totally understandable. But you managed
Speaker 1: to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination, is
Speaker 1: drive and accomplish these great things that passed the bar,
Speaker 1: and now you're in practice as a criminal defense attorney
Speaker 1: in New York. Incredible, it's incredible, incredible story. And you've
Speaker 1: won one lawsuit right already, for yourself, for myself, right
Speaker 1: and now you're representing clients, including one whose story has
Speaker 1: kept me up at night since you told me about it.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk
Speaker 1: about the case. But what's what's really nuts to me
Speaker 1: is that Kian now finds himself representing a case that
Speaker 1: is eerily similar to his own. That is true. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I see a lot of things in common with my
Speaker 1: case there. It's part of the reason why strives me
Speaker 1: to help this man out. Are you able to talk
Speaker 1: about that? I know it's an ongoing case, So it's
Speaker 1: an ongoing case. I think the case you're talking about
Speaker 1: I'm wearing a T shirt right now, right? Is that it? Yes?
Speaker 1: So it's free f R E Darwin just like it
Speaker 1: sounds the A R W I N roke r o
Speaker 1: q U E dot com. Yeah, and has a little
Speaker 1: information about the case and what we're trying to do
Speaker 1: for for Darwin. And so I mean, this case it
Speaker 1: seems like has a very eerie resemblance to your own,
Speaker 1: you know, with the difference being that in this case
Speaker 1: someone was it was a stabbing, but it was actually
Speaker 1: someone who was killed. And Darwin has been in prison
Speaker 1: even longer than you were, and it's still fighting for
Speaker 1: his freedom. Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now,
Speaker 1: but you know he's a strong individual. So hopefully he
Speaker 1: can get through this and and we're sol it will
Speaker 1: be something equitable and just for him at least to
Speaker 1: gain his freedom again. And it's an important part of
Speaker 1: your story too, So I want to talk about this
Speaker 1: because this is where it's so important that people like
Speaker 1: you exist and are able to spend the time and
Speaker 1: devote the brain power and the energy and the inspiration
Speaker 1: draw on your own experience to help somebody who was
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted and is now serving a terrible sentence in
Speaker 1: a terrible place. And this is a guy who was
Speaker 1: a young up and comer, right entrepreneur, running a pet
Speaker 1: store right his own pet store, at twenty four years old.
Speaker 1: I want to bring attention to his case and use
Speaker 1: your story to drive interest in Darwin's case and helpfully
Speaker 1: have him sitting here in your seat sometimes soon I
Speaker 1: would love nothing more than to see that. For the
Speaker 1: people listening, what can they do to help Darwin. To
Speaker 1: help Darwin, well, you know, we have to hire a
Speaker 1: gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and investigators
Speaker 1: and all these things cost money. And when you go
Speaker 1: to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a rock
Speaker 1: up a mountain. It requires so much effort because courts
Speaker 1: are really not receptive generally, so it cards a lot
Speaker 1: of effort and a lot of money. So on the website,
Speaker 1: if someone would like to donate, it's right there. None
Speaker 1: of it will go to me. I don't charge an
Speaker 1: hour leafee, I'm I'm working pro bono and I will
Speaker 1: continue to do so until I see justice done in
Speaker 1: this case. But they can donate and it will go
Speaker 1: toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that
Speaker 1: are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the from
Speaker 1: the d A or police or litigation you know, costs
Speaker 1: court fees. It'll go toward that. So that's one way
Speaker 1: that they can help and it will go a long way.
Speaker 1: So in the nutshell, people please go to free Darwin
Speaker 1: Rope dot com and see how you can get involved.
Speaker 1: And help keyon in this remarkable effort that he's putting
Speaker 1: forth on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself
Speaker 1: in these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found
Speaker 1: yourself in twenty years ago or so. Ken, We have
Speaker 1: a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is that I
Speaker 1: like to turn the mic over to you, the star
Speaker 1: of our show today, for any closing thoughts. Well, if
Speaker 1: folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed an interest
Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system, are the injustice that's occurring
Speaker 1: within that system. If you feel to help out, there's
Speaker 1: always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money, although
Speaker 1: every little bit does help as well. Reach out to
Speaker 1: some folks and uh, if you know, if you're really
Speaker 1: interested in and helping the movement, because there's plenty of
Speaker 1: folks still in jail for things they did not do.
Speaker 1: I think it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country.
Speaker 1: And also thing we're still trying to get a hold
Speaker 1: on how many people actually get convicted of things they
Speaker 1: didn't do, and I think it's I think it's much
Speaker 1: greater than then your average person anticipates. So don't be
Speaker 1: afraid to reach out. Maybe volunteers some time. Hey, it
Speaker 1: could be a good thing. You can donate to certain
Speaker 1: charities and give it a shot. Might make you feel better.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
Speaker 1: The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.
Speaker 1: Rnful Conviction with Jason flam is a production Lava for
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one