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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.

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Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you seem on TV,

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Speaker 2: because it may just be a dirty da that is

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Speaker 2: trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today I have very special guests Keon Katibi,

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Speaker 4: who's going to tell you a story that will well,

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Speaker 4: it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken,

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, good to be here.

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Speaker 4: So Keon, ironically, I guess you could say, is from Pleasantville,

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Speaker 4: New York, and you grew up in sort of a

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Speaker 4: nuclear family, sort of a normal childhood pretty much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year

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Speaker 3: year and a half apart, and I'm the number two.

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Speaker 4: And the crux of your story all revolves around a

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Speaker 4: tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called

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Speaker 4: lock Stock and Barrel eight.

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Speaker 5: That's where it all started.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed

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Speaker 4: in a fight in this bar, and at the time

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Speaker 4: that it happened, you were in the police station, which

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Speaker 4: is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have

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Speaker 4: much of a better alibi than that it was hidden.

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Speaker 4: But there's video that exists that proves that you were

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Speaker 4: in the police station at the time of the stabbing,

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Speaker 4: and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway, So let's

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Speaker 4: go back to that fateful day or that faithful night,

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Speaker 4: I should say, when you were in that bar, What

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Speaker 4: was going on? How did this fight happen? How did

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Speaker 4: you end up going to the police state. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's all so nuts.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a good place to start. Well,

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Speaker 3: I was inside of the bar Lockstock and barrel in

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Speaker 3: the village of Pleusbonville, Westchester County, New York, and i'd

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Speaker 3: just gotten there. I think I was there maybe under

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Speaker 3: ten minutes.

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Speaker 5: And there was a scuffle.

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Speaker 3: There was a I guess a group of young folks

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Speaker 3: and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely

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Speaker 3: college bar and there was a scuffle and I got

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Speaker 3: pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and

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Speaker 3: I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.

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Speaker 3: A little shorter than me is stocky guy, and he

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Speaker 3: grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up

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Speaker 3: and I put my hand to push him away.

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Speaker 5: He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least.

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Speaker 3: And at that time, the bouncer was standing at the

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Speaker 3: door and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was

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Speaker 3: just focusing on the guy who had his arm around

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Speaker 3: my collar and squeezing my shirt.

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Speaker 4: That's reasonable, you know.

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Speaker 3: And the bouncer grab my shoulder and says, hey, you

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Speaker 3: got to get out of here.

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Speaker 5: So I left. You know, I obliged.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I

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Speaker 3: deserve to stay, you know, So I walk out, and

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Speaker 3: the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but

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Speaker 3: you were the closest guy to me, and I just

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Speaker 3: had to get a grip on the situation.

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Speaker 5: So I left.

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Speaker 3: I went to seven to eleven store to get some coffee,

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Speaker 3: and you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 3: all my friends are inside. I came with them. At

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Speaker 3: this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although

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Speaker 3: I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do

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Speaker 3: I get home? Do I go tell my friends? And

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Speaker 3: you know, we're nineteen ninety eight. Everybody doesn't have a

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Speaker 3: cell phone, er nothing like that. That's just not going on.

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Speaker 3: So you know, maybe a few people at that time,

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Speaker 3: if I recall correctly, had what they call pagers. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: So I'm thinking what do I do? So I start

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Speaker 3: walking back toward the bar and saying, maybe I can

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Speaker 3: see someone outside, make sure everyone my friends knew at

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Speaker 3: least I was kicked out and that I'm going home,

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Speaker 3: or maybe they're leaving too soon.

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Speaker 5: I'll get a ride, right, right.

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Speaker 3: So I start walking back to the bar and there's

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Speaker 3: a huge parking lot on one of the sides of

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Speaker 3: the lock stock and barrel, bar or pub, whatever you

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Speaker 3: call it. And then I see a group there. There's

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Speaker 3: altercation and there's yelling and screaming. But I walk a

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Speaker 3: little closer because I, you know, it didn't think it

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Speaker 3: involved me and didn't at that time.

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Speaker 5: It's also the way back to the bar.

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Speaker 3: That I have to go, so I get a little

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Speaker 3: closer and seems these guys are just like arguing and

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Speaker 3: screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out

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Speaker 3: here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me.

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Speaker 3: And I go to walk past them and one of

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Speaker 3: the guys points at me and says, hey, there's the

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Speaker 3: guy from the bar. In my head, I'm just like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god. And I'm thinking, is that one of

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Speaker 3: the guys who had me by the collar or one

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Speaker 3: of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it wasn't enough that

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Speaker 3: I just got kicked out of the bar. Now they're like, hey,

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Speaker 3: that's him. Like so I kind of steer around the

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Speaker 3: group to get to the sidewalk because I don't want

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Speaker 3: anything to do with that. And the guy's still yelling

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Speaker 3: and it looks like he wanted to come after me

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Speaker 3: or to hit the tone of his voice.

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Speaker 5: So, you know, and I'm a small guy.

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Speaker 3: You know, at that time, I think I weighed like

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Speaker 3: one hundred and forty five pounds at you know, five nine,

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Speaker 3: so that's probably as light as you can get. You know.

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Speaker 3: I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs

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Speaker 3: and everything. And you know, these guys are some they

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Speaker 3: were both actually football players. Oh so it's very intimidating

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like,

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Speaker 4: this is not a great night so far. Yeah, exactly, exactly,

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Speaker 4: but it's about to get a lot worse.

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Speaker 3: It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that

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Speaker 3: was the beginning of the next ten years of downward spiral,

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Speaker 3: you know, until the light, so till the hard fought

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Speaker 3: light that is. So I managed to get past them

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Speaker 3: and past them. Right across the street is the train station.

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Speaker 5: I walked past them.

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Speaker 3: I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the

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Speaker 3: train station. And it's this downstairs in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs,

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Speaker 3: it's maybe like thirty steps, and you know, it's a

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Speaker 3: big carve out and it's kind of like, you know,

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Speaker 3: a dip in the ground, so it's like a big

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Speaker 3: ex chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls

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Speaker 3: all around here in this down in this pit in

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Speaker 3: the middle of Pleasantville.

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Speaker 5: And I start hearing all this.

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Speaker 3: Yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing

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Speaker 3: down there, and I'm just thinking, what what is going

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Speaker 3: on there? So I get I get nervous a little

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Speaker 3: because one I was just kicked out of the bar.

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Speaker 3: Two the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like

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Speaker 3: what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey,

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Speaker 3: I saw that guy go down the train station steps.

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Speaker 3: Let's go find them, you know, And this is what's

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Speaker 3: going through my mind.

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Speaker 4: At least, you know, logically, I think it was.

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Speaker 5: I thought it was.

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Speaker 3: Reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big a person.

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Speaker 3: So I come back up the steps of the train

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Speaker 3: station and I just kind of positioned myself right next

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Speaker 3: to the police station door, which is on the other

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Speaker 3: side of the train station. And when I hear the

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Speaker 3: train coming I'll walk down and grab the train. So

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm laughing, but it's like, actually.

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Speaker 4: All of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know,

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Speaker 4: you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the

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Speaker 4: police station for protection.

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Speaker 3: At the time I thought it was too but you know,

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Speaker 3: in hindsight, I see that every step I made was apparently,

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Speaker 3: you know, a step toward the fatal results which occurred.

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Speaker 4: And you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to

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Speaker 4: the police station. I was about, well, we actually know,

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Speaker 4: because there's there's time stamps and stuff, right, we know

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Speaker 4: you went to the police station at one twelve in

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Speaker 4: the morning, right, and then and then what happened.

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Speaker 3: I was outside waiting to listen to the train to

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Speaker 3: go back down, just for safety reasons, also to hear

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Speaker 3: tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking,

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Speaker 3: is that related to the fight? Did the folks get

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Speaker 3: into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are

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Speaker 3: they driving around looking for people? It's going to be

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Speaker 3: one of those like a brawls between villages, you know,

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Speaker 3: because there's rivalries in some of these towns, like football

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Speaker 3: rivalries or whatever. Hawthorne, Westlake and I was thinking, oh,

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Speaker 3: maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I

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Speaker 3: hear these tire screeches, and all of a sudden, I

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Speaker 3: hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded

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Speaker 3: like they were screaming, like a horror film or something

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Speaker 3: like that. My heart just jumped out of me at

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Speaker 3: that time, and I ran into the police station and

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Speaker 3: there was a glass wall there in the desk. Officer

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Speaker 3: and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen.

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Speaker 3: I was just coming from down the road from you know,

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Speaker 3: the seven to eleven, walking back past the lockstock and barrel,

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Speaker 3: and there was some guys that were after me, and

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Speaker 3: I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by the

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Speaker 3: train station alone, and I just worried that they might

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Speaker 3: come and find me, and I guess fight me.

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Speaker 5: That's what's going through my mind. At least.

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Speaker 3: I asked if I could get a ride to a

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Speaker 3: police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations

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Speaker 3: are probably like a mile apart, you know.

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Speaker 5: And the officer said, yeah, come here, here's some water.

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Speaker 3: Sure I can give your ride to the Hawthorn train station,

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Speaker 3: no problem, give me a second, And so I sat down,

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Speaker 3: I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I

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Speaker 3: feel like, you know, that's it. I did what I

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Speaker 3: had to do to take care of myself at least

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Speaker 3: for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride

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Speaker 3: to the train station, go home, and that'll be that

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Speaker 3: about it. I guess less than a minute around that

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Speaker 3: time goes by and the officer comes back around to

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Speaker 3: me and says, hey, listen, I can give you a ride,

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Speaker 3: but I've got to go run and answer this call.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know what time I'm coming back, so

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Speaker 3: I can give your ride, but you have to wait

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Speaker 3: and night. I have no idea when I'm coming back.

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Speaker 3: So I said, okay, well thanks, and then he.

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Speaker 5: Just like gunned it out the door.

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Speaker 3: So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride

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Speaker 3: and I do have to get home, So I get

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Speaker 3: up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find

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Speaker 3: my way home that night, and I thought that was the.

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Speaker 5: End of it.

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Speaker 4: Well when did you find out what actually happened that

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Speaker 4: night at the bar, Because it turned out to be

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Speaker 4: a lot more than what you thought. Right, A couple

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Speaker 4: of people were stabbed.

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Speaker 3: Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking

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Speaker 3: about it the next.

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Speaker 4: Day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You

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Speaker 4: find out that there were a couple of people stabbed

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Speaker 4: in the bar. As it turns out, they were so

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Speaker 4: drunk they didn't even realize they had been stabbed until

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Speaker 4: they came out. But one guy was in the hospital

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Speaker 4: for a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it was a

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Speaker 4: pretty pretty serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops

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Speaker 4: are trying to figure out who did it right exactly,

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Speaker 4: and how the hell did they land on you when

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Speaker 4: you were in the police station at the time of

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Speaker 4: the stabbing. Let's talk about this. How did you end

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Speaker 4: up getting convicted because most of the witnesses said you

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Speaker 4: weren't there.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of torturous to

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Speaker 3: explain how we got from A to B, but I'll

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Speaker 3: give it my best shot.

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Speaker 5: So there was about two weeks that went by.

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Speaker 3: In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know,

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Speaker 3: and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and

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Speaker 3: that the victims were found actually down the block in

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Speaker 3: front of the Bank of New York and another bar,

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Speaker 3: you know, but I kind of put some things together

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Speaker 3: and say, oh, that probably had something to do with

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Speaker 3: the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And

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Speaker 3: on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, I'm in Pleasantville,

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Speaker 3: down by the Piete Seria. You know, my mom still

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Speaker 3: lived there at the time, as well as brothers and

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Speaker 3: sisters and a detective, Detective Masie of the Pleasantville Police Department.

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Speaker 3: I guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know,

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Speaker 3: and I'm actually on the same block as the police department,

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Speaker 3: and out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know,

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Speaker 3: he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least

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Speaker 3: two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six feet.

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Speaker 3: And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keon,

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Speaker 3: come here, you know. And I walk over to him

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Speaker 3: and he says, you come with me right now. You

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Speaker 3: talk to me what happened a couple weeks ago. And

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Speaker 3: I said, well, tell me what you're talking about.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I

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Speaker 3: told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now,

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Speaker 3: but here's my card. If you want to, you know,

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Speaker 3: calm down and we'll make an appointment. I'll come in

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Speaker 3: and speak with you. But I have other things to

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Speaker 3: do right now. You know, I have a job. I

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Speaker 3: work evenings as a waiter. And he got so pissed off,

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Speaker 3: Like the anger in his face it was, it was

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Speaker 3: just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you

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Speaker 3: don't want to talk to me? Then all right, a

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Speaker 3: few and he jams his finger into my nose and

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Speaker 3: it like stung me. And I'm just in shock right there,

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Speaker 3: and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't know what

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Speaker 3: to do, Like what's next, you know, is he going

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Speaker 3: to like drag me away? Is he going to like

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Speaker 3: take me into a van?

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Speaker 5: And I don't know all this stuff. I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 5: I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away.

287
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Speaker 5: I stand there for a minute and then I walk away.

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Speaker 3: When I go home, I go to work, My day

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Speaker 3: goes on. I contemplate calling them and making an appointment,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not sure. I don't want to go and

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Speaker 3: face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then I

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Speaker 3: think about two weeks go by, and a couple of

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Speaker 3: my friends call me up or tell me. I don't

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Speaker 3: recall exactly when I but when I see them or

295
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 3: hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out

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Speaker 3: with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, are

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Speaker 3: you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came.

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Speaker 3: They showed me the warrant and they said they're looking

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Speaker 3: for you.

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Speaker 4: And I said, did you immediately think that it was

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Speaker 4: for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the

302
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 4: hell could they possibly be looking for me for?

303
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Speaker 3: Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on.

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Speaker 3: It's not like I was out there doing all sorts

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Speaker 3: of stuff where they.

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Speaker 4: You weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay,

307
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Speaker 4: So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now

308
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Speaker 4: what happens?

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Speaker 3: Well, I call a lawyer and I tell them a story.

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Speaker 3: I say, you know, my friend's telling me there's a

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Speaker 3: warrant for my arrest. And the lawyer's like, well, did

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Speaker 3: you see it? And I was like, well no, because

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Speaker 3: you know then I probably would have been arrested by

314
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Speaker 3: the time I saw it. But I'd like to know,

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Speaker 3: how do we handle this? You know, do I turn

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Speaker 3: myself in, do we call them, do they come.

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Speaker 5: Pick me up?

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Speaker 3: And so we arranged a date for me to turn

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Speaker 3: myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did,

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Speaker 3: and I think it was February fourth of nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 3: I went and turned myself in. I was I was arrested.

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Speaker 3: I was held in county jail for about a week

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Speaker 3: without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville.

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Speaker 3: I went to the felony hearing. There was two victims.

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Speaker 3: One of the victims is testifying about how we thinks

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Speaker 3: that I stabbed them this and that, and it was

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Speaker 3: held over for indictment. I was indicted. I went to trial,

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Speaker 3: and I was convicted. Of course, you know, there's a

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Speaker 3: lot more in between to the story, but that's uh,

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Speaker 3: that's the timeline there.

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Speaker 4: But both of the victims was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes,

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Speaker 4: And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the

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Speaker 4: time they were stad. They were so heavily intoxicated that

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Speaker 4: they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came

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Speaker 4: along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come

336
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Speaker 4: there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk

337
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 4: do you have to be to not know you were stabbed.

338
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Speaker 3: Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His

339
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 3: blood alcohol content BAC was greater than point three and

340
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Speaker 3: that's all it registered on his blood test. And I

341
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Speaker 3: think the way the hospital had it set up, if

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Speaker 3: you're greater than point three, I mean that was that

343
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Speaker 3: was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero

344
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Speaker 3: eight point one, but uh, greater than point three was

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Speaker 3: was the max. They don't go higher and that and

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Speaker 3: that's a state where you can, according to the consensus,

347
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Speaker 3: like you can black out whose consciousness you potentially you

348
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Speaker 3: could die from alcohol poisoning. Sure, at that level.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about that for a second. I think for

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Speaker 4: drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So

351
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Speaker 4: when you're at point three, that means you're about four

352
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Speaker 4: times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to

353
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Speaker 4: the point where, yes, you can have a cute alcohol

354
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Speaker 4: poisoning and you can die. And it's interesting because at trial,

355
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Speaker 4: neither one of them was able to identify you as

356
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Speaker 4: the assailant, right.

357
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them

358
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Speaker 3: or they saw me stab them, but they made conclusions

359
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Speaker 3: that must have been me that stabbed them, and you know,

360
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,359
Speaker 3: and that the jury was allowed to hear that, and

361
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Speaker 3: that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real

362
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Speaker 3: shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter or.

363
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Speaker 5: To show the jury.

364
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Speaker 3: Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them

365
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Speaker 3: when in fact I didn't.

366
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Speaker 4: Well, we know now that there are a number of reasons.

367
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Speaker 4: The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know

368
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Speaker 4: lead to wrongful identifications in so many cases. Right, the

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Speaker 4: police showed a photo lineup with you in it and

370
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Speaker 4: showed it to the victims and told them that the

371
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Speaker 4: actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number

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Speaker 4: of things they did that are at a minimum bad

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Speaker 4: police work. And I think that's one of the factors

374
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Speaker 4: that happened in your case that led to you being

375
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Speaker 4: identified as the sale even though you weren't even there.

376
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Speaker 5: That's one of the main factors.

377
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Speaker 4: Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take

378
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Speaker 4: you to get to trial?

379
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Speaker 5: It took a little over one year.

380
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Speaker 4: So you were in jail the whole time.

381
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Speaker 5: I actually bailed out.

382
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Speaker 3: I was out on five thousand dollars bail, So before trial,

383
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Speaker 3: I was out on bail, and during trial, I was

384
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Speaker 3: I guess, lucky enough to be out on bail.

385
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Speaker 4: It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right,

386
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Speaker 4: That would indicate to me that the judge who set

387
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Speaker 4: to bail was not very concerned that you were going

388
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 4: to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they

389
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 4: certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand. I mean that's

390
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Speaker 4: almost like a misdemeanor type of bail.

391
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

392
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 3: Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think

393
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 3: the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses

394
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,360
Speaker 3: in the case and set the bail at five thousand,

395
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 3: and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing

396
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 3: occurred in February of ninety eight, and the trial occurred

397
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 3: in February of ninety nine, so there was a whole

398
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 3: year there to prepare and you know, fix up the weaknesses.

399
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 3: And I guess those are nice words to use, because

400
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,399
Speaker 3: the real words I should use is they had a

401
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 3: whole year to destroy evidence, to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence,

402
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 3: and to coerce these witnesses to testify against me. So

403
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 3: by the time I went to trial, you know, it

404
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 3: was pretty much guaranteed lights out.

405
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's pretty incredible when you think about, Again,

406
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 4: this is New York. You're a guy who's not the

407
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 4: typical defendant. You know, you hadn't really had a lot

408
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,400
Speaker 4: of altercations with the police before, and yet they did

409
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 4: things that are so beyond the pale, including not handing

410
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,359
Speaker 4: over a bloody shirt and hat that were found at

411
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 4: the crime scene, right, I mean, and then eventually claiming

412
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 4: that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced, that's a nice word.

413
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Speaker 5: Yeah, that was just ridiculous.

414
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Speaker 3: I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning

415
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 3: and doing that, or how they explain why they did that.

416
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 5: It's just it's ridiculous.

417
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 4: Not only did they withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape

418
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,880
Speaker 4: that they knew had a timestamp on it that would

419
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 4: have placed you at the police station at the time

420
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 4: that the crime was being committed, which is right there,

421
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 4: case closed done. That means they knew that you didn't

422
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 4: do it, that they withheld that. They intimidated your friend Eric, right,

423
00:20:58,720 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 4: who was in the bar.

424
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'd have to just say he was not

425
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 3: my friend, but I didn't know who he was.

426
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was an associate.

427
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 3: I mean, he would have been a friend if he

428
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 3: was a nicer person, but I just wouldn't call him

429
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Speaker 3: a friend.

430
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 4: Okay, So they intimidated acquaintance of yours named Eric Freud,

431
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 4: into implicating you. And we know from whether way the

432
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 4: cop behaved towards you actually physically assaulting you, yeah, on

433
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 4: the street in front of the pizza place. We know

434
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 4: that there's a lot of credibility to that claim. And

435
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 4: then they also threatened the bouncer if he didn't implicate you, right,

436
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 4: so they I mean, I don't want to believe that

437
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 4: police behave like that. I grew up and I still

438
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 4: believe that. You know, Listen, most I think most police

439
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 4: are good. I think as a society we need police.

440
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 4: I'm not one of these people who's like an anarchist

441
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 4: or something, and I always say I'm not soft on crime.

442
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 4: I'm tough on injustice. Right. I believe we need to

443
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 4: have a system of laws, We need to have people

444
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 4: in place, police, prosecutors. Whole system has to function because

445
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 4: it has to keep society safe. But when it's turned

446
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 4: upside down, it's just it it's so deeply disturbing to

447
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 4: see what they can do, how they can grind somebody

448
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 4: like you up so ken now that you are a

449
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 4: practicing attorney, and we're going to get to that in

450
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 4: a few minutes because some of the stuff you're doing

451
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 4: now is so fascinating. Looking back on your trial, do

452
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 4: you feel that you were represented in an adequate manner?

453
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 5: Well, I mean I don't.

454
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 3: I don't and I hope I never represent someone myself

455
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 3: as an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at

456
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: trial by my attorney, then there was a lot of

457
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: problems there with the defense. At the same time, I

458
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 3: have to say to myself, well, how can a defense

459
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: truly be effective if all the evidence is being withheld

460
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 3: from the defense?

461
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,479
Speaker 4: It's really hard, you know. So yeah, I mean you

462
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,959
Speaker 4: didn't have much of a chance. You would have needed

463
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 4: the Clarence Darrow or a modern day version be very

464
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 4: shack representing you to give yourself a fighting chance. Absolutely,

465
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: and that's clearly not what you had. You weren't a

466
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 4: rich guy, right, or you couldn't afford the dream team.

467
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 3: Oh, I was on financial aid going to community college

468
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 3: at that time, right, I could hardly even afford, to.

469
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 4: Put it politely, you were fucked, right, But well, then

470
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 4: you got to trial. It was already It basically was

471
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 4: a formality. They were they were gonna they had you,

472
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 4: They were going to get you. And that's exactly what

473
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 4: they did. You get convicted and sentenced to what seven

474
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 4: to fourteen years In person, I'm trying to imagine what

475
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 4: was going through your mind when that happened.

476
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: Well, like you had just said a few minutes ago,

477
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 3: in your America, this doesn't happen. This type of behavior

478
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: from police officers doesn't happen.

479
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 5: And that's what I was thinking too, even.

480
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: After my arrest and during my trial, you know, and

481
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 3: now all I keep thinking is, you know, there's no

482
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 3: way that the jury would convict me or this judge

483
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 3: will allow this even to get to a verdict based

484
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 3: on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent, and I

485
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You don't get

486
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: convicted of things you didn't do. Not in my America, right,

487
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 3: And the last thing I think in my mind is

488
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: that everyone would simply jump on board and push my

489
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 3: head under the water. That's the last thing I thought

490
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 3: would happen. And the whole time I was in prison,

491
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 3: I thought, surely someone would come with a helping hand

492
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 3: and see the injustice that has occurred here. But you

493
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 3: know that doesn't happen, you know, and you're stuck, always

494
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 3: hoping for the next level.

495
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 5: When you're in prison.

496
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested, I'll

497
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 3: be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this was

498
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and the

499
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 3: jury will see and the judge will see, and maybe

500
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 3: even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know,

501
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: these are actually kind of naive thoughts.

502
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 4: Looking back, they were naive thoughts. I mean, they're idealistic thoughts.

503
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors

504
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: have a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always

505
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: equate with justice.

506
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 4: No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is something that

507
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 4: needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There you have

508
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 4: to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In your case,

509
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 4: there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though a huge

510
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: percentage of the evidence, and the most important evidence was

511
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 4: with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and you still

512
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 4: had a story to tell that that should have at

513
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 4: least put some one of two of the jurors in

514
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 4: a position to say I can't reasonably convict this guy.

515
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 4: Which prison did you get sent to?

516
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: Well, initially, I'm in Westchester County Jail almost almost for

517
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: like a year there. It turns out that they apparently

518
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 3: they forgot me. That's what I was told. After I

519
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: was convicted, my bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail,

520
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 3: and everybody I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted,

521
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 3: they're upstate within two weeks, and there I am eight

522
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.

523
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 3: So I actually called my mom and I said, can

524
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: you call the jail and find out what's going on.

525
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 3: It's supposed to be out of here to go up state,

526
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state,

527
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail.

528
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 3: I mean, basically don't get to see anybody or anything.

529
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 3: It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and

530
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: she said, well, the state says they forgotcha, so they

531
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork era. So I think

532
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: in July of ninety nine, I shipped upstate to Downstate

533
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After my

534
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 3: mom called and I figured out that I was lingering

535
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 3: over there in the county jail for a better half

536
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: of a year.

537
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 4: And that tells you something about just how bad jails are.

538
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 4: And I think it's important for people to realize that

539
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 4: you don't see the sunlight thinking about that. How insane

540
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 4: is it that you, an innocent man, is actually asking

541
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 4: can you please transfer me to it? Was that a

542
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: maximum security prison? It was, Yeah, so you attract to

543
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 4: transferred to a maximum security prison. So in prison, now

544
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: you're in this it even it sounds it just sounds

545
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 4: scary right downstate. It just sounds like.

546
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: It was prison in general. It was very, very scary

547
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: and intimidating.

548
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 4: How did you survive in this environment?

549
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I had to do was I guess,

550
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: observe what's going on and find out what I want

551
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: to be involved with. When I went upstate, or even

552
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: it started in the county jail, I realized that there's

553
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: a lot of folks there in prison, in jail in general,

554
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: who had or have drug problems, you know, and there's

555
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 3: no doubt that they continue to use drugs while in prison.

556
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 3: And there's another large group which tends to gamble all

557
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 3: the time. Some of them they'll talk to you with that,

558
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 3: you know, without strangling. You are are rippings about jaboget, right,

559
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: So you know, as a young, skinny, twenty two year

560
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: old that I was, you know, and they say, they

561
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: give some advice and they say, stay away from gambling

562
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: and drugs and you're gonna increase your chances of not

563
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: getting a shank in the back. And I thought, you know,

564
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: that really made sense. So I'm really not a gambler

565
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: to begin with, you know, And the most I ever

566
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 3: did back in high school was smoke some pots.

567
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 5: So I thought, hey, I'm good.

568
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: You know. I wasn't the type of guy who had

569
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 3: to prove myself. You know, that's not what I was

570
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: there for. I wasn't there to earn my stripes in prison.

571
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 4: You know.

572
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: I was there because for things I didn't do.

573
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 5: You know. It was not a big bad dude. And

574
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 5: I think I.

575
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: Have ability to make people laugh as well and feel

576
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 3: comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a lot

577
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk to me,

578
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: and that includes you know, some of the gang leaders,

579
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: some of the old timers. You know, these are big

580
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: time dudes in jail. They head up the gangs, and

581
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: you know, I would talk with them, and they seem

582
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 3: to be more you know, in control and calm. I

583
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: guess because of their you know, a long experience. They

584
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: were no longer going out doing wild things. Those were

585
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: the younger folks in the prison generally, who were like

586
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: stabbing up people or doing crazy stuff for no reason.

587
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: So I think I made I guess you could say,

588
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: friends or whatever with a few of them, and they

589
00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 3: respected me.

590
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 4: And you think they knew that you were innocent.

591
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: No, to be honest with you, that's probably the last

592
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 3: thing you want to do going upstate because there are

593
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 3: folks there. They will pray, people prey on any whiff

594
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: of weakness, any whiff of weakness, and it's really intense

595
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: like that, and you just have to learn really quick

596
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 3: what people interpret as weakness because you will instantly get

597
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: preyed upon. Like, for example, I'm crossing my legs right here, right,

598
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: No big deal.

599
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 5: You look at it, You see anything I.

600
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 4: Didn't notice until you've pointed it.

601
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 3: Well, go up there as twenty two years old and

602
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: you're crossing your legs and in prison. The environment is

603
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real, but that's

604
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's just the

605
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 3: machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic. You cross

606
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: your legs or you do anything that's considered not macho,

607
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft and or gay,

608
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: and then you're preyed upon as someone who can be

609
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: made fun of or stolen from, or a chump or

610
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 3: a punk or whatever. So you really have to watch

611
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: out for anything like that in the outside world, which

612
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: you just being yourself, you know, crossing my legs whatever.

613
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not gay, but it wouldn't matter. I'm

614
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: just saying any any indication. At the same time, you know,

615
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: there's people that sniff out newcomers and they'll try to

616
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: watch your body language, how you hold your shoulders, and

617
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: if there's a piece of weakness, they'll come up and

618
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: they'll try to be your friend or this or that.

619
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: You know, it might not find out for weeks later

620
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: that they're actually preying on you, praying on your weakness

621
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: to find out so that they can basically wrap you

622
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: up in a corner some place and demand your commissary.

623
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: And I've seen this happen to so many people. It's

624
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: rather sad. If that works out, then they go on

625
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: to the next level of intimidation, and they'll have people

626
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: call their family at home and say, hey, can you

627
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: send me some pack of cigarettes? Can you send me

628
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: some money? I'm in trouble here, and that money will

629
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 3: go to, you know, an extort or someone else under

630
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: threat of rape or or getting beat up, and then

631
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: oftentimes you know it does lead to rape, but the

632
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 3: person who you know who's victimizing there is just really

633
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: a really intimidated person.

634
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 4: It's all so terrifying, the whole idea of the eggshells

635
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 4: you're walking on and having to learn a whole new,

636
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: twisted culture and programming, and it's got to stop. I mean,

637
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 4: being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured. There should

638
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 4: be some some dignity in this process. And that is

639
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: it's an affront to should be in front of everybody's

640
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 4: sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness so great, So here's

641
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: where things get really nuts. Kean on November seventheeenth, two

642
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home,

643
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 4: your dad was talking about how much he missed you

644
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 4: and wish you were there and everything else, and then

645
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 4: a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how

646
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 4: easy this is for you to even talk about, but

647
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: I mean, do you want to tell what happened or

648
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 4: you want me to do it?

649
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 5: Go ahead and then I'll fill in the blanks.

650
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 4: So, having read the story, it was at that time

651
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 4: that your brother, I think his name is pronounced Kavon, correct, right,

652
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 4: your brother Kavon began weeping at the dinner table and

653
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 4: admitted that he, in fact was the culprit. And I'm

654
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 4: getting the chills as I'm saying this, right, and I'm

655
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 4: trying to picture what the hell was going through your parents'

656
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 4: minds at this point in time, right, I mean, here

657
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 4: they are talking about how much they miss you, as

658
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 4: any parent would, and now learning not only that in fact,

659
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: everything you've been saying all along was true, that you

660
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 4: were innocent, but that the actual perpetrator is sitting at

661
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: the dinner tab with him. It's your brother. Things start

662
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 4: to progress from there, right, Tell me how that things

663
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 4: start to move at that point, because a new hearing

664
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 4: of ultimately is held at which he's brought to the stand.

665
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 3: Well, just to give you, I guess an abbreviated step

666
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: by step timeline there.

667
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 5: So after that evening, you know, my father.

668
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 3: And brother, sisters. Eventually they came and saw me and

669
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 3: and told me what occurred, and I said, okay, well,

670
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 3: this is what we should do now. Eventually it led

671
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: to affidavits reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the

672
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 3: two individuals being included in emotion what they call a

673
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: four forty motion in New York, which is what you

674
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 3: do after direct appeal to get facts off the record

675
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 3: in and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.

676
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 3: Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new

677
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 3: trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother,

678
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing.

679
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 4: But wait a minute before before we get to that. Yeah,

680
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 4: I'm at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like.

681
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 4: Was it both of your parents that came to the

682
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 4: prison to tell you this news?

683
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: No, my dad, Yeah, my mom was in Chicago at

684
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: that time.

685
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 4: So your dad comes to the prison and tells you that,

686
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 4: in fact, your brother had admitted that it was he

687
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 4: who had committed this crime for which you have now

688
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 4: had eight years of your life stolen from you in

689
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 4: the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like.

690
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 3: Well, different people will have different reactions if they were

691
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 3: in my position, But for me, I can tell you

692
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 3: it was simply a feeling of relief.

693
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 5: I just felt relieved.

694
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 4: Because now you could see light at the end of

695
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 4: the tunnel. Yes, well, that's logical. You didn't feel rage.

696
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: It was relief for a while, did come. I mean

697
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: I did throughout the years that followed up, you know,

698
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 3: possibly up until just a few years ago. I don't

699
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: talk to my brother right now for variety reasons. Obviously

700
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: you know this is what happened here is one of them.

701
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 3: But in the beginning, for at least a few months,

702
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: it was just relief.

703
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 5: It was just relief. You know.

704
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: I was sitting there, stuck in prison, and I couldn't

705
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: I just couldn't figure out why I'm there or how,

706
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 3: you know, how the state could have so much power

707
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 3: over an individual's liberty with without without providing enough circuit breakers,

708
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 3: enough safety nets, you know, And I'm still.

709
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 4: There, amazingly, as fate would have it. On September twenty third,

710
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight, which was your thirty third birthday, right, Yeah,

711
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 4: you got the best birthday present you could imagine.

712
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: I definitely did you want to talk about that? Well,

713
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: I was upstate, you know where was I at this time?

714
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: I think I was at a Sing Sing correctional facility,

715
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: and they called me down to white planes and I

716
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 3: walked out in front of the judge on September twenty three. Meanwhile,

717
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 3: I had a retrial ordered by this time, but it

718
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 3: was just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped

719
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: up and just said we would not oppose defendant's ro

720
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: R release right now. And I heard that and I

721
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: was just like, I don't know, I'm lucky at him

722
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: lose consciousness at that time, just hearing those words.

723
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 5: So the judge cut me loose, got me loose.

724
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 3: Right then in the court room, and I was in

725
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: this state issued clothing, and I'm still surrounded by these officers,

726
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple of

727
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 3: muscle bound officers all surrounding me with handcuffs. And I

728
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 3: couldn't believe it.

729
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 4: So what happened? Did they take the handcuffs off right

730
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 4: then and there? But then you had to still change.

731
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 4: It was like you walk out into the daylight wearing

732
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 4: a correction of the uniform.

733
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: Right at they gave me what's called a court uniform,

734
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 3: which is like, I guess it's always tight jeans. They

735
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 3: always give somebody two sizes too small. But so it

736
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: was tight jeans like from the eighties.

737
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 5: You know.

738
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 4: So wait a minute, but you're in the courtroom, in

739
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 4: the courtroom, but you were still dressed in the.

740
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 5: State issued clothing.

741
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, at what point did you change into these two

742
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 4: tight jeans?

743
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: Oh?

744
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 3: Oh, right before I got into court, they say, here's

745
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 3: a beige sweatshirt and jeans. Here, you can put them

746
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 3: on so you don't have to go in front of

747
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: the judge in your prison greens.

748
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 4: Okay, so at that moment you almost collapse, right, but

749
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 4: you didn't, And then did the courtroom break out? That

750
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 4: moment must be etched in your memory permanently.

751
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: I mean, well, if you take it back about one

752
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: minute before the judge said that, you have an officer

753
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 3: sitting down on my right side, an officer sitting down

754
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: on my left side, and an officer behind me.

755
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 5: And as they walk you in, well.

756
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: One guy you know who feels like he has like

757
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: the hand of a gorilla strength, you know, always the

758
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 3: case has a hand on your shoulder, and they're walking

759
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward, don't

760
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 3: turn to the right, don't turn to the left. And

761
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, they they mean that, don't

762
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head

763
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 3: to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in

764
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 3: the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,

765
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 3: you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight.

766
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 5: You know.

767
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: They don't just take you down, you get a beat down.

768
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting in this chair and then have officer

769
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 3: like you can feel the breath on the back of

770
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: your neck of these officers just waiting to take down

771
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 3: a convicted violent felon for even moving your head to

772
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: the right. And that was how it was until the

773
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: judge said ro rd And so I turned to my

774
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: lawyer and I said, can I can I stand up?

775
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 5: Can I'm free to go?

776
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 3: And he says yes, and all the officers stand up,

777
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: and I get up and I say, you're on or

778
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: I can leave. She says yes, you can leave, and

779
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 3: I turn the officers and I say I can go out.

780
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 3: Those back doors. Yes, I had to ask the question,

781
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 3: like I must have just kept repeating it to every

782
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 3: single officer there before I even felt the courage to

783
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 3: take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years

784
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 3: I had been under the gun, and if you make

785
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are

786
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 3: getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the

787
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 3: hospital and there's no recourse for that. You know, you

788
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 3: turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head,

789
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 3: you disrespect a direct order. And you know the way

790
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 3: the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently

791
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: there you can get taken down and knee in the

792
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 3: back and you know, a foot on the face, I guess,

793
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 3: but you know the it was hard to believe, and

794
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 3: I really couldn't believe it. I asked, I think I

795
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: just repeated so many times, can I.

796
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 5: Go out that door? Can I go out that door?

797
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 5: And I had to make sure.

798
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 3: Because I felt I felt it was unreal.

799
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 4: And your parents and family in the courtroom, yeah.

800
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 5: They started crying.

801
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: So I actually walked over back of them in the

802
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 3: seat and I said, don't cry this, you know, this

803
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 3: is a beautiful moment.

804
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 5: Should be happy.

805
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: And so I tried to be strong for them, and

806
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: I tried myself not to cry, because you know, I

807
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 3: didn't want it to turn into one big weeping fest,

808
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: and you know, I wanted I wanted to see some

809
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 3: smiles on their face. You know, care about Tom, I

810
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 3: love them.

811
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 5: And so.

812
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 3: We got up and left, and I left with my

813
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: sisters and they took me to immediately, they took me

814
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 3: to the mall to get Bear jeans, and you know,

815
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 3: that was that was a very interesting moment as well,

816
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 3: because they're picking out jeans for me, you know, because

817
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: my style is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these

818
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,959
Speaker 3: jeans on it and they're all tight, and I'm telling them,

819
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 3: I think this is really tight on my you know,

820
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 3: my butt, and they're like, listen, it should be a

821
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 3: lot tighter.

822
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 5: We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.

823
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 3: And so I was like okay, and I tried them on.

824
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: I walked out and took me a few weeks to

825
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 3: realize that that was probably just ordinary geens right there,

826
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: as opposed to nineteen ninety nine when everybody was wearing

827
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 3: more loose stuff. And so I got used to it,

828
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: still going ten years later.

829
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 4: So you ultimately graduate college and go to law school,

830
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 4: not just any law school, NYU law school.

831
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 3: So let me correct you on that one. So I

832
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: went to NYU underbred and I graduated with honors. For

833
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: law school, I went to Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School,

834
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 3: which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also

835
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 3: the home of the Innocent Project, of course, and that

836
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 3: that's my that's my law school.

837
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you went to NYU. You went from Community College, Pleasantville,

838
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 4: waiting Tables, maximum security prison, unbelievab ordeal and saga to NYU,

839
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 4: one of the hardest schools in the world to get

840
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 4: into and graduate with honors, and then to Cardozo Law School,

841
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 4: which is the home of the Innis's Project, which is

842
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 4: again a top top law school. And then you pass

843
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 4: the bar, which is again I mean, that's an incredible

844
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 4: accomplishment for anyone, much less someone who if your brain

845
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 4: was spaghetti, nobody would it would be totally understandable. But

846
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 4: you managed to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination,

847
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 4: is drive, and accomplish these great things and pass the

848
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 4: bar and now you're in practice as a criminal defense

849
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 4: attorney in New York.

850
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 5: That is correct.

851
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 4: Yes, incredible. It's an incredible, incredible story. And you've won

852
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 4: one lawsuit right already for yourself, for myself. Yeah, right,

853
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 4: And now you're representing clients, including one whose story has

854
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 4: kept me up at nights since you told me about it.

855
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 4: And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk

856
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: about that case. But what's really nuts to me is

857
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 4: that Keon now finds himself representing a case that is

858
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 4: eerily similar to his own.

859
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: That is true, Absolutely, I see a lot of things

860
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: in common with my case there. It's part of the

861
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 3: reason which drives me to help this man out.

862
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 4: Are you able to talk about that? I know it's

863
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 4: an ongoing case, so.

864
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 5: It's an ongoing case.

865
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 3: I think the case you're talking about I'm wearing a

866
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 3: T shirt right now, right, is that it?

867
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: Yes, So it's free free Darwin, just like it sounds

868
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 4: the ar Wyn broke r Oque dot com.

869
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that has a little information about the case and

870
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 3: what we're trying to do for Darwin.

871
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 4: And so I mean, this case, it seems like, has

872
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 4: a very eerie resemblance to your own, you know, with

873
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 4: the difference being that in this case someone was it

874
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 4: was a stabbing but it was actually someone who was killed.

875
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 4: And Darwin has been in prison even longer than you were,

876
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 4: and it's still fighting for his freedom.

877
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now, but

878
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: you know he's a strong individual, so hopefully he can

879
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 3: get through this and result will be something equitable and

880
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 3: just for him at least to gain his freedom again.

881
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 4: And it's an important part of your story too, So

882
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 4: I want to talk about this because this is where

883
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 4: it's so important that people like you exist and are

884
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 4: able to spend the time and devote the brain power

885
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 4: and the energy and the inspiration, draw on your own

886
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 4: experience to help somebody who was wrongfully convicted and is

887
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 4: now serving a terrible sentence in a terrible place. And

888
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 4: this is a guy who was a young up and comer,

889
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 4: right entrepreneur, entrepreneur running a pet store, write his own

890
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 4: pet store at twenty four years old. I want to

891
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 4: bring attention to his case and use your story to

892
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 4: drive interest in Darwin's case and helpefully have him sitting

893
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 4: here in your seat sometime soon.

894
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 5: I would love nothing more than to see that.

895
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 4: For the people listening, what can they do to help Darwin?

896
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 3: To help Darwin? Well, you know, we have to hire

897
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: a gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and

898
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 3: investigators and all these things cost money. And when you

899
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: go to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a

900
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 3: rock up a mountain. It requires so much effort because

901
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: courts are really not receptive generally, so it requires a

902
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: lot of effort and a lot of money. So on

903
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 3: the website, if someone would like to donate, it's right there.

904
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: None of it will go to me. I don't charge

905
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 3: an hourly fee. I'm working pro bono and I will

906
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 3: continue to do so until I see justice done in

907
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 3: this case. But they can donate and it will go

908
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that

909
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the DA

910
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 3: or police or litigation you know, costs court fees. It'll

911
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: all go toward that. So that's one way that they

912
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: can help and it will go a long way.

913
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 4: So in a nutshell, people please go to free Darwinroque

914
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 4: dot com and see how you can get involved and

915
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 4: help Kion in this remarkable effort that he's putting forth

916
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 4: on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself in

917
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 4: these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found yourself

918
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 4: in twenty years ago or so. Ken, we have a

919
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 4: tradition here on Ronfuel Conviction, which is that I like

920
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 4: to turn the mic over to you, the star of

921
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 4: our show today, for any closing thoughts.

922
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 3: Well, if folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed

923
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 3: an interest in the criminal justice system, are the injustice

924
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: that's occurring within that system. If you feel to help out,

925
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 3: there's always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money,

926
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 3: although every little bit does help as well. Reach out

927
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 3: to some folks and you know, if you're really interested

928
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 3: in helping the movement, because there's plenty of folks still

929
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: in jail for things they did not do. I think

930
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country. And also

931
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: thing we're still trying to get a hold on how

932
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 3: many people actually get convicted of things they didn't do,

933
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 3: and I think it's I think it's much greater than

934
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: your average person anticipates. So don't be afraid to reach out.

935
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 3: Maybe volunteer some time. Hey, it could be a good thing.

936
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 3: You can donate to certain charities and give it a shot.

937
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 3: Might make it feel better.

938
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

939
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 4: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

940
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 4: donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll

941
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 4: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

942
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

943
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 4: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

944
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 4: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

945
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 4: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

946
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 4: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

947
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 4: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

948
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

949
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 4: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one