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Speaker 1: Hi, it's Andrea Gunning. Last week, we shared Andrea Dunlop's story.

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Speaker 1: On this week's episode, Andrea and I sit down for

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Speaker 1: a conversation about true crime podcasting.

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Speaker 2: We get into what this work means.

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Speaker 1: For us and how we approach these stories.

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Speaker 2: We hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. I'm a

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Speaker 1: listener and also a huge fan of Nobody Should Believe Me,

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Speaker 1: which is your show, and you know, we just shared

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Speaker 1: your story on Betrayal Weekly, and I'm just so glad

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Speaker 1: our two shows are collaborating because I think that Munchausen

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Speaker 1: by Proxy, which is what you cover in your show,

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Speaker 1: shares a lot in common with Betrayal. Earlier, we were

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Speaker 1: joking that this conversation is kind of like the Andrea

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Speaker 1: Andrea True Crime Summit, but that's really what it feels like.

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Speaker 1: So I'm hoping we can really compare notes about what

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Speaker 1: it's like working in this space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to start off with just your background.

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Speaker 3: How did you get into being a true crime podcaster?

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Speaker 1: You know, I often joke that I am a recovering

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Speaker 1: TV executive, and so I hail from the TV space,

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Speaker 1: but I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group,

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Speaker 1: and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries And for

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Speaker 1: about seven and a half eight years, I was overseeing

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Speaker 1: our business department, so I was the executive in charge

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Speaker 1: of production, So I did all the boring things in TV,

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Speaker 1: which is like the budget, the financing, like.

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Speaker 2: All the hard stuff.

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Speaker 1: And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through

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Speaker 1: legal deals with our development department, and we were seeing

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Speaker 1: great eat stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.

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Speaker 1: When one story that came across our desk, we were

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Speaker 1: working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron

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Speaker 1: Goldman who was murdered by OJ Simpson, and we were

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Speaker 1: trying to sell something in TV with her, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless

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Speaker 1: OJ was involved, or OJ was attached, or we could

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Speaker 1: guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when

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Speaker 1: OJ was still living I think he had just gotten

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Speaker 1: out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time.

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Speaker 1: But my colleagues and I really believe that there was

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Speaker 1: a story here, even without OJ's voice, So we decided

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Speaker 1: to make it a podcast, and instead of telling the

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Speaker 1: OJ Simpson story, we told the story of people who

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Speaker 1: lived it, and so that's how we got started in

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Speaker 1: the podcast space.

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Speaker 3: That's a great answer. I mean, I really see that

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Speaker 3: imprint for the work you've done for that, you know,

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Speaker 3: and also that just really plugs into what I think

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Speaker 3: is interesting about true crime stories, which is the sort

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Speaker 3: of long tail of them and the way that they

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Speaker 3: impact the people who are pulled into them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things you're known for is your

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Speaker 3: work on Betrayal and now Betrayal Weekly. How did you

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Speaker 3: come to that story that was the first season of Betrayal.

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Speaker 2: It's all kind of related.

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Speaker 1: So Jen Fason is the subject of season one in

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Speaker 1: her marriage and how the marriage unraveled.

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Speaker 2: But she works in television.

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Speaker 1: She's in a television executive producer, so we kind of

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Speaker 1: are in the same universe. And Jen had heard confronting

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Speaker 1: oj Simpson and reached out to her agent, and her

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Speaker 1: agent reached out to me and my colleague Ben for

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Speaker 1: an initial conversation. But the universe has an interesting way

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Speaker 1: of working because at this time, I was getting out

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Speaker 1: of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house.

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Speaker 1: I had discovered a lot of deception not to the

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Speaker 1: magnitude that Jen had, and I was kind of recovering

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Speaker 1: from understanding like why was I in this relationship?

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Speaker 2: Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?

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Speaker 1: Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of these questions that were coming to the surface.

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Speaker 2: So it was like I was meeting Jen at the

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Speaker 2: perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude.

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Speaker 1: Of what Jen was going through, but I knew, like

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Speaker 1: as it was like I don't even want to say

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Speaker 1: as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being,

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Speaker 1: I understood the pain when she pitched me her story,

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Speaker 1: I understood her anger and her confusion.

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Speaker 2: And I felt like this emotional access.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, if we could maybe do something with that,

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Speaker 1: people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that

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Speaker 1: relatability and that timing of it just so happened to

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Speaker 1: work out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing, And I think that that shows up

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Speaker 3: in the quality of the season and just the emotional

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Speaker 3: depth of it. And I'm really interested in what you

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Speaker 3: said about this idea of not coming from a place

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Speaker 3: of anger. This is a really complicated part of interviewing

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Speaker 3: people about these stories, right because they have every right

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Speaker 3: to be angry. You have every right to want to

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Speaker 3: even go on a sort of revenge journey, but doing

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Speaker 3: that on a podcast is not actually helpful to anyone, right,

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Speaker 3: It's not helpful for the listener. It's not really ethical

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Speaker 3: to sort of try and get someone in that energy,

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Speaker 3: even if it can be compelling in its own right.

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Speaker 3: And I have the same sort of thing when I

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Speaker 3: talk to folks who are often dealing with really extreme

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Speaker 3: betrayals and then on top of that, you know, the

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Speaker 3: abuse to them or abuse to their children or children

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Speaker 3: that they care about, and it's I think, really important

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Speaker 3: to make sure that someone is ready to have that conversation.

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Speaker 3: It was important to me, you know. I started off

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Speaker 3: with telling my own story in the first two seasons

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Speaker 3: of the show kind of bit by bit, and I

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Speaker 3: sort of revisited pieces of it from time to time,

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Speaker 3: but like I had to wait, you know, a decade

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Speaker 3: until I was ready to talk about it. I was like,

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Speaker 3: it's such a vulnerable thing, and it's such a vulnerable

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Speaker 3: thing to put out there and then have people react to.

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Speaker 3: There are so many points along this journey where getting

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Speaker 3: on a mic would have been the absolute wrong choice

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Speaker 3: for me, right, And I think there's also like the

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Speaker 3: expectation setting, because if you're talking about a case where

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Speaker 3: it's either an unsolved case, or it's a case where

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Speaker 3: there wasn't a good outcome, or it's a case where

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Speaker 3: like the person you're talking to wants some action to

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Speaker 3: be taken by authorities, that's not something that we can

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Speaker 3: make happen, can't always guarantee, right, And like so I

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Speaker 3: think that that's also like a really tricky part of

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Speaker 3: it of making sure that who I'm talking to you, like, Yes,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna put all this out there, and I think

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Speaker 3: people are going to care. I think people are going

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Speaker 3: to get something out of it. They're going to learn

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Speaker 3: something important, They're going to relate with this experience. I

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Speaker 3: hope you get a deep personal Catharsis from sharing this.

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Speaker 3: But like the cavalry is unlikely to mount up because

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Speaker 3: unfortunately that's just not often how it works.

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Speaker 2: And this may not end with the answers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was my worry producing There and Gone,

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Speaker 1: which came out this past summer in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit

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Speaker 1: because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an

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Speaker 1: ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or

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Speaker 1: solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk,

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Speaker 1: and then the partnerships that you with distributors are also

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Speaker 1: taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know,

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Speaker 1: what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going

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Speaker 1: to walk away feeling satisfied? And you know, these are

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Speaker 1: people like we're studying, and we're exploring stories of people

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Speaker 1: and their loss and their trauma and their grief, and

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Speaker 1: so we're not always going to get a payoff that

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Speaker 1: makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories

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Speaker 1: that really show the complexity of the human experience, and

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Speaker 1: I think they'rein Gone is an example of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, can you can you kind of give us a

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Speaker 3: give us an intro to the case and how you

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Speaker 3: got interested in it.

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Speaker 1: Sure, it's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago to thirty somethings just literally vanished off

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Speaker 1: of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the

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Speaker 1: Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They

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Speaker 1: were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again.

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Speaker 1: And the until this day, no one knows what happened.

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Speaker 1: Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire? And

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Speaker 1: so I remember this because I was, I think a

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Speaker 1: senior in high school and it was terrifying because one

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Speaker 1: of the victims his parents have a bakery that I

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Speaker 1: grew up going to, and both of their families look

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Speaker 1: so much like mine in different ways.

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Speaker 2: They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family.

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Speaker 2: We do Sunday dinner.

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Speaker 1: You know, they gamble on Sunday or for football bets,

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Speaker 1: like I'm wearing my Eagles jersey, like this feels like

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Speaker 1: this could be my own cousin this happened to So

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Speaker 1: it was very personal to me. And so it was

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Speaker 1: just this loss that kind of reverberated throughout our entire

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Speaker 1: community and continues because how do two people in their

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Speaker 1: mid thirties just vanish, just literally into thin air. And

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Speaker 1: when we were exploring doing the story, I thought the

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Speaker 1: families would be very interested, but we would struggle with

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Speaker 1: law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: But then I soon realized that the.

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Speaker 1: FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that

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Speaker 1: the more coverage it can get of this case, more

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Speaker 1: people will be able to like call in and feel like,

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Speaker 1: let me just do my part let me twenty years later.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna make the

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Speaker 1: phone call. I'm going to say what I know and

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Speaker 1: be done with it.

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Speaker 2: And I live in this.

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Speaker 1: City, and there are parts of this city where this

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Speaker 1: crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of

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Speaker 1: the city, the neighborhoods in this city where people know

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened, or they feel like it's a fact.

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Speaker 1: They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who

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Speaker 1: did it, I know why it's done.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Like, how a whole.

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Speaker 1: Neighborhood in one city there's like this understood rumor of

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Speaker 1: what happened to two random people that have no connection.

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Speaker 1: How was the neighborhood in.

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Speaker 2: Which I lived?

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Speaker 1: So to me, it was like, I just want to

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Speaker 1: help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime yet,

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Speaker 1: but there was enough people that actually wrote into the

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Speaker 1: FBI for them to reopen in assign new agents.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like I did my job.

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Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I mean that's amazing. And I think this

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Speaker 3: is one of the most interesting parts of working in

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Speaker 3: the true crime sphere and why it's so important to

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Speaker 3: like take this job seriously and be really responsible. Is

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Speaker 3: because it does have real world impacts. And yeah, I

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Speaker 3: mean this question of law enforcement's like, so the case

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Speaker 3: that I'm working on right now for our next season

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Speaker 3: is one that I am hoping that some action will

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Speaker 3: happen on. How realistic that is, who knows, but I

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Speaker 3: do think that it is and can be a powerful

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Speaker 3: tool to getting law enforcement involved. And that can be

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Speaker 3: the kind of thing where you get you know, political

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Speaker 3: will for a local prosecutor to actually file charges on

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Speaker 3: something where they might not otherwise. You can you know,

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Speaker 3: get people who are making those decisions at the police

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Speaker 3: department to sign some extra muscle to it. You can

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Speaker 3: you know, flush out some new information from the community.

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Speaker 1: Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest things that I feel like we

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Speaker 1: both you know, betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing

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Speaker 1: your show covers factitious disorder, and although they're very different,

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Speaker 1: there's so many commonalities between people who you know, live

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Speaker 1: through or have a relationship with Munchausen's and Munchausens by

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Speaker 1: proxy and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics

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Speaker 1: we cover on betrayal are extreme but sadly they're not uncommon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And in season three we really focus on and male

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse and we learn that one in six men

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Speaker 1: have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is

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Speaker 1: it actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported

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Speaker 1: because of the stigma around it. And I just feel

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Speaker 1: like these are two taboo issues, you know, munchaus and

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Speaker 1: syndrome by proxy, and to take that seriously and talk

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Speaker 1: about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a

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Speaker 1: large hurdle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, that's a really good point. And we've definitely learned

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Speaker 3: a lot from the progress that has been made around

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Speaker 3: child sex abuse, which I think it still is underreported.

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Speaker 3: I think most people except that child sex abuse is

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Speaker 3: real and not rare. Yeah, certainly anybody that's informed on

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Speaker 3: the topic knows that. But I think that did not

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Speaker 3: always used to be that way, right, And it was

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Speaker 3: seen as this like stranger danger type of aberration, you know,

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Speaker 3: one in a million sort of thing that happened, and

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Speaker 3: then our society grappling with it sort of went through

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Speaker 3: some interesting hurdles along the way, a major one being

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Speaker 3: the Satanic panic, where you have all these stories about

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Speaker 3: you know, daycare workers and undergrad you know, the McMartin

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Speaker 3: case and all these like underground tunnels, which my take

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Speaker 3: on it is that that was society grappling with something

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Speaker 3: that we really really didn't want to look at, which

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Speaker 3: is child sex abuse, and that actually it was easier

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Speaker 3: and more comforting to think that it was satanic daycare workers,

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Speaker 3: because that's a problem that you can ostensibly solve. But

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Speaker 3: I think it's more comforting to think that there's some

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Speaker 3: evil system that you can kind of shut down than

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Speaker 3: it is to confront the reality, which is that this

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Speaker 3: is boy scout leaders, priests, coaches, dads, uncles who a

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Speaker 3: doing this right, So it's most likely to be someone

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Speaker 3: that that child knows, and it's not going to be

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Speaker 3: someone who is an obvious creep all the time. And

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Speaker 3: it's so similar with Munchausen. And that's where we get

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Speaker 3: into kind of the hullabaloo that happened around the Maya

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Speaker 3: Kwalski case with the film Take Care of Maya and

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Speaker 3: a lot of the coverage that really followed in lockstep

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Speaker 3: with that where they presented it as a medical kidnapping case.

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Speaker 3: Medical kidnapping is our satanic panic, essentially, it's like, you know,

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Speaker 3: this idea that doctors are just separating families, right, Like

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Speaker 3: doctors don't make those decisions. Doctors evaluate abuse. It's a

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Speaker 3: legitimate subspecialty. There's just so much disinformation around that. And

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Speaker 3: the Maya Kuwalski case was sort of the most high

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Speaker 3: profile one. But I think that there's a similar dynamic

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Speaker 3: going on there, and certainly with Munchhausen biproxy, it's not

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Speaker 3: a one in a million thing. I think the behavior

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Speaker 3: is a longest spectrum, but I think it's far more

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Speaker 3: common and getting worse because of social media, because of

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Speaker 3: which I would assume actually if some of the behaviors

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Speaker 3: that I'll talk about on Betrayal in this sort of

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Speaker 3: more male deception and cheating and that kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: like you're talking to Spencer Heir in case, like social

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Speaker 3: media has given people unfettered and unlimited access to attention,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I think it was doctor Romani says

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Speaker 3: in the TV series like, Oh, that's the dangerous combination, right,

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Speaker 3: attention seeking plus lack of empathy. I mean, that is

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Speaker 3: exactly how you describe Munchausen biproxy behaviors. And so I

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Speaker 3: think there's every reason to believe that it's getting worse,

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Speaker 3: and that is a scary world to live in. I

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Speaker 3: hate to be the one to break this to you,

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Speaker 3: but like the world is not what you thought. That

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Speaker 3: mom of the sick child, who's raising money on GoFundMe

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Speaker 3: and seems like the most heroic mother you've ever met,

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Speaker 3: could be the scariest person you've ever met. And so

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Speaker 3: I think that's why these conspiracy theories around medical kidnapping

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Speaker 3: get traction because the reporting on it is very thin.

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Speaker 3: Child abuse professionals do not make good money. Child abuse

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Speaker 3: pediatrics is a highly trained and not well paid some specialty.

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Speaker 3: They get trashed in the media, they get accused of

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Speaker 3: snatching babies. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart.

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Speaker 3: And also just like that work, like doing that frontline

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Speaker 3: work of rushing to the hospital to see a child

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Speaker 3: that's been abused is obviously emotionally grueling work. There isn't

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Speaker 3: any scenario where you could make it make sense that

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Speaker 3: doctors just want to do that. It's a nightmare for

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Speaker 3: the hospitals. The hospitals can get sued, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: like there's no motivation. But I think the reason those

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Speaker 3: stories still take off in the media is that people's

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Speaker 3: discomfort around the reality of this abuse is so so deep.

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Speaker 1: Something that we're constantly confronting in true crime is having

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Speaker 1: to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when

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Speaker 1: in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the

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Speaker 1: ones that are kind of in the every day I

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Speaker 1: remember when we were covering Ashley Linton's case in Riverton,

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Speaker 1: Utah for Betrayal season two, you reached out to IKAC,

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Speaker 1: which is an Internet Crimes against Children task force that

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Speaker 1: every state has, and I remember one of the task

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Speaker 1: force members asked, why are you covering this case like

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Speaker 1: I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are ten times

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Speaker 1: worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was,

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Speaker 1: I don't want the hyperbolic version see Sam case. You know,

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Speaker 1: I want to meet people in a very average, everyday

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Speaker 1: story because that's actually what's happening. And so I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's the same for a lot of these mothers

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Speaker 1: who are if they're on the new it's like this

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Speaker 1: monster of a mother that did this, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we have to hear about the extremes instead

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Speaker 1: of leaning into the reality of what's happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I became a media outlet because I

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Speaker 3: was so fed up with the way that media was

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Speaker 3: covering this case.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: And it's been interesting over the last few years, as

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Speaker 3: I've kind of jumped first, I guess I've noticed that

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Speaker 3: awareness is increasing, especially because of the Gypsy ros blanterd case,

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Speaker 3: which was so high profile. I do think that there's

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Speaker 3: more of a conversation happening than there was five years ago.

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Speaker 3: But you know, there was like so much reticence to

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Speaker 3: talking about it. Like I remember when my novel came out,

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Speaker 3: and like I had written like an essay for it

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Speaker 3: and that got killed at the last minute, and there

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Speaker 3: was just like a lot of like no, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 3: If there's not a conviction, you can't talk about it.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, if we're not talking about the

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Speaker 3: cases where there aren't convictions, then we're not talking about

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Speaker 3: the problem, right, Like when you get into the extremes

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Speaker 3: and allow people to put it at arm's length, that

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Speaker 3: person is a monster, that person is a psychopath, that

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Speaker 3: like I would see coming and this would never happen

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Speaker 3: to me, and that's not reality. And I think that

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Speaker 3: was why for me it was so important to talk

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Speaker 3: about my own experience, because the other thing that we

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Speaker 3: do with perpetrators of crimes, especially if it's something where

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Speaker 3: it just feels so like deeply, deeply, deeply wrong, we

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Speaker 3: often say, oh, well, that person must have had a

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Speaker 3: horrible child, that person must have been abused as a child.

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Speaker 3: There must be some like dots I can connect. And

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Speaker 3: I think that that's part of the let me tell

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Speaker 3: myself a story about this that makes me feel safe,

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Speaker 3: right where like, as long as XYZ doesn't happen in

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Speaker 3: my family, we won't end up with one of these

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Speaker 3: perpetrators in our family. And that's just not the case, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my sister did not by anybody else's you know,

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Speaker 3: nobody else witnessed anything dramatic happening to her. You were

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Speaker 3: not raised an abusive household. Like, it's not something where

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Speaker 3: oh there's some straight line that you can draw. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's really uncomfortable for people. I think people

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Speaker 3: really want to believe that something awful has to happen

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Speaker 3: to a person to make them like this, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think that's true. I think it is that combination

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Speaker 3: of lack of empathy and need for attention that really

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Speaker 3: can supercharge these behaviors totally.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I also felt

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Speaker 1: was really relatable. And the circumstances are so different, but

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Speaker 1: just knowing your sister's story and having to go in

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Speaker 1: front of the judge in family court, like you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with family court and criminal court are two separate things.

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Speaker 1: And the issues that I've seen a lot of the

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Speaker 1: women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate

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Speaker 1: the criminal side, and once that's over and you know,

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Speaker 1: the father of their children are released, then they're dealing

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Speaker 1: with family court either in their divorce or child support

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Speaker 1: or dealing with visitation. It is a whole other ball

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Speaker 1: of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so,

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Speaker 1: but they're in situations where kids.

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Speaker 2: Are at risk.

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Speaker 1: It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that that's something that the vagaries

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Speaker 3: of that like really is lost on people that have

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Speaker 3: not had to interact with these systems. And I think

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Speaker 3: people here and a lot of this again when I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about like you know, my Kicks and Bogs work

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Speaker 3: for NBC and his whole Duno harm series, Like a

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Speaker 3: lot of this is I think intentionally created a confusion

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Speaker 3: where it'll be like courts said, doctors disagree, Like courts said,

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Speaker 3: you know this and that right, and you're like, okay,

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Speaker 3: which court under what circumstances like give me more information?

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Speaker 2: Right, yep?

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Speaker 3: And everything goes to the family court first because those

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Speaker 3: are less you know, those investigations take less time than

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Speaker 3: the criminal investigation. So we end up in a lot

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Speaker 3: of situations where the family court gives the children back

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Speaker 3: during an active criminal investigation, which just I think sounds insane,

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Speaker 3: but that happens all the time. Likewise, you know, there's

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Speaker 3: this thing of like, well, doctors at this hospital said this,

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Speaker 3: but other doctors disagree, without ever mentioning that those other

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Speaker 3: doctors are people who were hired as expert witnesses by

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Speaker 3: the parent defending themselves. Right, important information, And like, I

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Speaker 3: think people don't realize that the courts don't take the

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Speaker 3: steps that you would think in the face of a

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Speaker 3: criminal conviction to like limit that person's access to their

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Speaker 3: own children. Like for instance, you know, we just had

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Speaker 3: a case that we're talking on the show at the

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Speaker 3: Jessica Jones case in Texas where she got a sixty

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Speaker 3: year prison sentence and the courts did not perminate her

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Speaker 3: parental rights and so now the dad has to pay

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Speaker 3: to do that. So just the onus that ends up

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Speaker 3: on a protective parent in any child abuse situation, I

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Speaker 3: think people have no idea what that looks like, or

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Speaker 3: just people don't realize how easy it is actually to

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Speaker 3: get access to children.

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Speaker 1: Again. Yeah, in the case of Stacy Rutherford and Tyler

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Speaker 1: from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got

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Speaker 1: it right. So for people that don't know, Stacy was

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Speaker 1: married to a man named Justin and he was a

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Speaker 1: doctor in Rudding, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a

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Speaker 1: previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married

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Speaker 1: and they had two kids of their own, and he

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Speaker 1: was by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor,

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Speaker 1: beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing

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Speaker 1: Stacy's son from her first marriage, his step son, since

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Speaker 1: he was eleven and t Tyler didn't disclose until he

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Speaker 1: was I want to say seventeen, so a long time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman

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Speaker 1: while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover

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Speaker 1: in season three of Betrayal, and what.

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Speaker 2: The judge did is not only did he get.

437
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life.

438
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to miss quote what a sentencing was,

439
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: but he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children

440
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: or have any contact with the family until he's done.

441
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: His probation, basically for the rest of his life.

442
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: And so I remember talking to Stacy and Tyler and

443
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: then feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love

444
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: justin like the person that they knew as a he being,

445
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: like Tyler loved his stepdad, but then there was the monster,

446
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 1: the abuser.

447
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: They were two different people to him.

448
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated

449
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and

450
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: just got it and knocked it out of the park.

451
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a

452
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Like I was really proud. So yeah, like sometimes

453
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: we talk about things getting wrong, like that was a

454
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: scenario where I think the court's got it right.

455
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: And it's you know, it's so complicated, and I think

456
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: it kind of goes back to this question of once

457
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 3: you have identified a person as this type of abuser,

458
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: where it has so much in common Matsta my proxy

459
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: with with child sex abuse, where it is, you know,

460
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 3: an extremely compulsive behavior. It's one of those things where

461
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 3: again I think like and I think we can more

462
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 3: easily recognize it in child sex abuse case where it's like, okay,

463
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 3: if you cross that line with a child, you're not

464
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: a safe adult period Like if you're capable of doing that,

465
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: like you know, whether or not you should be thrown

466
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 3: in jail for the rest of your life or we

467
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: should do something else with you. It's sort of a

468
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 3: separate question. But like you are not a print. That's

469
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 3: why we put people on registries. That's why we say

470
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: they can't go in your schools. Like we have no

471
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: such attitude towards much as my proxy perpetrators. There is

472
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 3: this idea that it is like some mental illness that

473
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: people are sort of quote suffering from, and much like

474
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 3: child sex abuse, there is an underlying psychiatric disorder. In fact,

475
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: to disorder imposed on another. It's very similar to pedophilic disorder,

476
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: which is also in the DSM, also very challenging to treat,

477
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: also very you know, unlikely that a perpetrator will take

478
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: enough accountability to be treated for it, and it doesn't

479
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 3: reduce someone's culpability. And it's like a very complicated thing

480
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: that happens when like children always want their parents. That's

481
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: such a biological drive for kids, that's a survival mechanism.

482
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: Even if their parent is not capable of life them

483
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 3: or being safe with them, like, they will always kind

484
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 3: of have this longing. So you can have a situation

485
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: where someone is separated from their parent and then they

486
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 3: really really really idealize that parent and don't then protect themselves.

487
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really complicated. And then for survivors that

488
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 3: have fully processed the abuse, so are not going that

489
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: direction of saying this didn't happen to me, right fully

490
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 3: understand fully processed the abuse. I mean, we saw Joe

491
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: in our four season really struggling with this with their mom.

492
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: Of like they totally recognize what their mom did to them,

493
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 3: and they understand a lot about the dynamics and they

494
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: still love that person. And I mean, I would say

495
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: most of the survivors I know are either low contact

496
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: or no contact, but it's really complicated to navigate that relationship.

497
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: We're working on a case for season four of The

498
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: Trial at this woman out of Colorado's Springs. She was

499
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: with her husband for twenty years. She lived like a

500
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: typical American life. She thought that she was just basically

501
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: living like the suburban dream. And I won't give all

502
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: the details because.

503
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: We air in May.

504
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: But things unravel and the family is torn apart, and

505
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: she has to look back on twenty years and basically

506
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: readjust her sense of reality because he shares things, discloses

507
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: things that completely alters core memories in her life where

508
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: she's living and thinks one thing is happening, where there's

509
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: another almost like parallel universe where he's operating, and she

510
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: has to hold both realities at the same time. She

511
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 1: often says, perception is my reality, and that really is true.

512
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: And I remember, because I had lo into your first

513
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: season so long ago. I was like, let me listen

514
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: to this again, like you know, Hope's family and then

515
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: your family.

516
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: I was thinking about you, guys, and.

517
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: Like you having to look back, like once things became

518
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: clearer to you or things were coming into focus.

519
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: How are you looking back on that time?

520
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: And how painful was it to try to merge what

521
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: you thought you were experiencing and then the reality that

522
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: you now learn. It's just it feels like those memories

523
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: start to hold on to you in a way that you're.

524
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: Like, I don't even know what to do.

525
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's a really profound part of the experience.

526
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: And I think when people, you know, people like to

527
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: throw the word gaslighting, I know, as like, you know,

528
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: it's sort of this like pop psychology term, but I

529
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: think like when you really have gone through like gaslating,

530
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: to my mind is like someone is systematically making you

531
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: doubt your perception of reality, and you know, it's extremely

532
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: dising and it's sort of its own whole thing to

533
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: recover from. And certainly for me, you know, given that

534
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: my sister is in my whole life growing up and

535
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: is in my earliest memories and it was a huge

536
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: part of my childhood, I mean very close in age.

537
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: She's my only sibling, it really breaks your brain for

538
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: a while.

539
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: Right, and now you're estranged.

540
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: You guys haven't talked in over a decade.

541
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is now fourteen years. This has been in

542
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: my life, and I've really gone through different stages of

543
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: processing it. And then it was like very clear that

544
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: like this Okay, this is permanent. And then I sort

545
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: of started to think about it as a death. I

546
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: started to think about it as there was a person

547
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: that I grew up with that I love, that I

548
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: had these experiences with and she died. I came to

549
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: a new understanding of it, which is that that person

550
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 3: that I thought I knew was probably never there and

551
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,239
Speaker 3: it was always a mask, and that the parts of

552
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 3: her that I experienced as being loving and being connected

553
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: were just a person like mimicking those behaviors. And that

554
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 3: was a really painful revelation. It was much easier to

555
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: think of her as a person that I loved and

556
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: was there and died, but I think it was a

557
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: really necessary one. So then there's the question of like

558
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 3: what do you do with all those memories and the

559
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: way that I frame it? And when I see other

560
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: people struggling with this, what I hope people can come

561
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 3: to eventually is a place that I think I finally

562
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: arrived at after a lot of work, which is my

563
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 3: experiences were still real. Like I loved my sister, I

564
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: had fun with her growing up, I had a happy child.

565
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 3: Put it with her, you know, those memories are my memories,

566
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: and at the end of the day, it was real.

567
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: It was real for me, So I get to keep them.

568
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I'm a twin and so you know, my

569
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: relationship with my sister, next to having my own children,

570
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: that's the most important relationship in my life always will be.

571
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: Like I entered the world with her, It did every

572
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: fundamental first with her. I could imagine losing my sister

573
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: or not being able to share in critical moments. It's

574
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: a profound loss, that relationship with a sister. It is.

575
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: And I think, like I'm sure that you get so

576
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 3: many emails and messages from people listening to the betrayal

577
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: shows that like relate with that experience and see themselves

578
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 3: in that, and I think there can be there's healing

579
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,239
Speaker 3: and making that content, there's healing and listening to it.

580
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: Listening to the betrayal shows has helped me.

581
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

582
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Again, it's the complexity of the human experience. That's kind

583
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: of like our driving force at Glass Podcasts and what

584
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: we do with betrayal. You guys have that in your

585
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: DNA too, Like I've heard it and it's been evident

586
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: in every season that you guys have done well.

587
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 3: I really appreciate that means a lot coming from you,

588
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 3: and I similarly really respect what you guys do over

589
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: there at Glass and I think, you know, I know

590
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: how much this can mean to people as listeners, and

591
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: navigating the pitfalls of how exploitative true crime can be

592
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 3: is a huge job. Yeah, I know y'all take it

593
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: seriously because I know you're behind the scenes process. And

594
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 3: I hope that we together can set a new standard

595
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: in this industry because I think it really needs to happen.

596
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was giving iHeart credit. I kind of give

597
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: Hulu an ABC so much credit. I mean, this was

598
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: like a big platform and some of these stories are

599
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: really hard to tell, and it's time where people like

600
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: afraid to go there. I'm like really impressed. I mean

601
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: season three is tough, but they saw a landscape. I

602
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: mean this past year, the Menendez brothers were all over

603
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: the pl I was.

604
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 3: Thinking about that when you're saying you guys are tackling this,

605
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 3: I was like, this is a really good time. Because

606
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 3: we did like a little thing on our Patreon about

607
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 3: that case because I was like, oh, this just feels

608
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 3: so germane like, especially talking about you know, because obviously

609
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 3: the Gypsy Rose Blantern case there's a lot of parallels

610
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 3: there right where you have someone who's an abuse victim

611
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: who commits a crime, and like, how do you talk

612
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: about that? How do you think about that? And I

613
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 3: think just the we were talking about how the discomfort

614
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 3: around male sexual abuse in particular weighs so heavily on

615
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: that court case.

616
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and for them to see that people are actually

617
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: open to hearing about that and discussing that and just

618
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: really sitting with that and taking Tyler and Stacy's story

619
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: and pursuing that for the Hulu documentary is really exciting

620
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: because it's only going to help dismantle the stigma around

621
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: this issue. And I'm really proud to work with partners

622
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: like that, I truly am.

623
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's incredible. I'm so I'm glad that they're

624
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: supporting it. Something that is very special about podcasting, like

625
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: podcasting feels like a medium where you can take a

626
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: lot of risks. Yeah, someone has to go first, so

627
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 3: I think like having a proof of concept with the

628
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 3: podcast like that certainly helps TV folks make good decisions

629
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 3: of like, Okay, there's an audience for this, so maybe

630
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: it is worth taking a little bit more of a risk.

631
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: It's a safer landing.

632
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly, it's all it all works works together.

633
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: So your book that just came out, this is your

634
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: first like intro to nonfiction, right.

635
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,479
Speaker 2: Or do I have that wrong?

636
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: No?

637
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 3: This, yep, this is my first nonfiction book for other

638
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: four our novels. And it's very funny because people are

639
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: always like with the book or with the show, they're like,

640
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: oh my god, I love your show. I mean not

641
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: because like you know, I know. It's like it's like

642
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: they're trying to tell me like, oh, not because I

643
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: love child abuse. I'm like, it's no, I know, I

644
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 3: understand what you're saying. And it's like, right, of course,

645
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: Like I want people to be engaged with the storytelling.

646
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 3: I want them to connect to that. They're not going

647
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 3: to care about it unless they are connecting to the story,

648
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 3: and unless they are staying engaged with the story, right,

649
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: And like, obviously we take it really seriously. Obviously we

650
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: do the utmost to tell things ethically, but like you

651
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 3: also have to have a good story.

652
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.

653
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 3: Well this was amazing. We just got like straight in

654
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: the defend, which I love.

655
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Speaker 1: I could talk to you for hours, Andrea, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for coming on our show and sharing your

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Speaker 1: story with us. Thanks for listening. Next week, we're sharing

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Speaker 1: the first episode in Andrea's latest season of Nobody Should

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Speaker 1: Believe Me. It's about Sophie Hartman, a mother who adopted

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00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: two girls from Zambia, but the story takes a tragic

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00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: turn when one of her daughters becomes terribly ill. So

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00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: stay tuned and we'll be back next week with that episode.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,

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Speaker 1: I want to tell us your Betrayal story, email us

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00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

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00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com.

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00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: We're grateful for your support.

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00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: One way to show support is by subscribing to our

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Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and

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00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A

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00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is

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00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,

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Speaker 1: in partnership.

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Speaker 2: With iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,

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Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

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Speaker 1: by Monique Leboard. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers

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00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: are Kristin Melcuriy and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is

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Speaker 1: Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by

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00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: Matt Delvecchio, Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme

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00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music

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Speaker 1: and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts