1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind, production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. My co host Joe is 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: away from work today, so I am conducting an interview 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: here with Professor Antonio Padella, author of the new book 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: Fantastic Numbers and Where to Find Them, a fascinating read 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: about big numbers, fantastic numbers, black holes, and more. This 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: is a really fun chat. I think you're all going 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: to enjoy it, So go ahead and jump right in 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: with me right now. Hi, Tony, Welcome to the show. Hi, 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: Hi up, how you doing? Oh? Pretty good? Pretty good? Um? 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: Really excited to talk about the new book Fantastic Numbers 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: and Where to Find Them? A wonderful read, and it's 14 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: a book that get into some pretty wonderful mind rending 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: cosmological territory as well. Note I'll discuss here, but first 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with just a really basic sort 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: of grounding question. I guess we encounter numbers every day, 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: and you discuss some numbers that most of us don't 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: encounter really every day. If we could back up a 20 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: whole lot, I guess, and just ponder the basics here, 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: what exactly is a number? Well, I mean, this is 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: this is an idea I sort of, you know, delve 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: into him in my book, because of course, when you 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: go really back in into history, back to sort of 25 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: the ancient Sunarians or something like that, you know, obviously 26 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: they really began to use numbers to talk about And 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: while I've got five jars of oil, I've got five 28 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 1: loaves of bread. But then it sort of begs the question, 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: is that five the same five is the five that 30 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: describes the jars of oil, the same five that describes 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: the loaves of bread. And then you really sort of 32 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: when you sort of make that disconnected too, and you 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: start to build the idea of like what I call 34 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: an emancipated number, but it's independent and of the thing 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: that it's describing, then you're really sort of making quite 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: quite an intellectual leap. So that, for me is what 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: is what a number is. It's kind of emancipated from 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: from the thing that it's describing. Whether such a thing 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: really exists in a philosophical sense, is a whole new 40 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: debate that you can have. But yeah, that for me 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: is is the key mathematical leap that I think was 42 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: made you know, a long time ago, and and yeah, 43 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: it's really important now getting back into that sort of 44 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: philosophical territory. This is one that I know that you 45 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: you tackle a lot. Uh, it's pretty standard sort of 46 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: philosophical math question. But is mathematics more of a human 47 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: discovery or more of a human invention? Yeah, I mean 48 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: I don't think there's a straightforward answer answer to this. 49 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Of course. This this sort of you know, boils down 50 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: to like a sort of alluded to whether numbers exist, 51 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: whether whether maths exist, and it's kind of I mean, 52 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm not a philosopher, but but but I know that 53 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: philosophers talk about this, and sort of this kind of 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: three different angles that you can take on it. So 55 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: so on the one hand, you've got the platonists who 56 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: will say that numbers and mathematics is true and it exists, 57 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: but it exists outside of space time. Is as like 58 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: an abstract concept. It's not something that can affect the 59 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: things in space time. It can't affect the material objects 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: that we have arounders. You also have the nominalists, who 61 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: says basically that numbers and maths only exist to sort 62 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: of understand stuff. So so in some sense, we talked 63 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: about the five, you know, five jars of oil, the 64 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: five five loaves of bread. That's the only reason that 65 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: the number five exists to describe the jars of oil, 66 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: to describe the loaves of bread. And then, of course 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: you've got the third sort of you know school, which 68 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: is perhaps in some sense the most extreme, which just 69 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: says the numbers that exist at all, that they're just 70 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: a useful tool, that that that we used to describe 71 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: the universe arounders. And I guess the analogy people use 72 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: here is it's like saying, well, you could be an atheist, 73 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: but you can still believe with some of the sort 74 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: of moral messages that you read in the Bible or 75 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: the Koran. It doesn't mean that, you know, you can't 76 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: be inspired by them, but you just don't have to 77 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: believe in every element of it. And I guess as 78 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: a physicist, for me, it's kind of hard to sort 79 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: of go with that fictionist idea and yet see a 80 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: universe that is so amazingly described by mathematics. Now, is 81 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: that something that's embedded in the universe or not. I 82 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: guess it's really difficult to know. We've certainly not seen 83 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: any evidence that it is. And yet now your book 84 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: deals with, as the title indicates, fantastic numbers. Uh, what 85 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: what defines for you a fantastic number? And are there 86 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: categories of categorizations of numbers other than that that we 87 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: need to have in our heads before we can get 88 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: to the idea of what it's truly fantastic. Yes, it's 89 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: so for me and my own relationship with numbers kind 90 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: of and it comes from, on the one hand, you 91 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: have a number, whatever that number might be, and if me, 92 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: I always want to bring that sort of personality alive, 93 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: the sort of real spirit of the number, sort of 94 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: to the four. And so it's always been physics for 95 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: me that that does that. So when you know you 96 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: can have these wonderful mathematical concepts ideas like Graham's number 97 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: three three, these truly bizarre and wonderful numbers to have 98 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: a wonderful place in mathematics, but then you really bring 99 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: them to life when you try to sort of squeeze 100 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: them into our physical world. So that for me is 101 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: what what makes a number fantastic. It's almost like, what 102 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: makes a number fantastic is the fantastic physics that it 103 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: can lead you towards and lead you to imagine and 104 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: whatever that might be. You also talk about I believe 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: specifically you're talking about Graham's number pretty early on in 106 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: the book, and you point out that if you if 107 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: you try and actually picture it in your head, your 108 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: head collapses into a black hole. And this this made 109 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: me wonder, like, what what are the largest numbers roughly 110 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: speaking then an average person can fit into their head 111 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: by one definition or another, Like, at what point does 112 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: it just become this this other enterprise entirely? Yes, So 113 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: it's a good question. So, I mean, it kind of 114 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: depends on how how you sort of define the question. 115 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: In some sense, we're just thinking about your rs. How 116 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: many neurons have you have you got in your in 117 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: your brain as about a hundred billion neurons, and so 118 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: you might say that you can use them if you 119 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: managed to clear your mind of every other thought to 120 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: imagine a hundred billion digit number. Okay, that might not 121 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: be particularly practical, it might be quite challenging for most 122 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: of us. But but in principle you might say that 123 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: that that that would be the limit. And of course, 124 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: if you then go beyond that and start to say, well, 125 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: what if I could somehow get my head to find 126 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: a way to actually store information store concepts more efficiently 127 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: than just the usual idea of neurons firing on and off. 128 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: Let's suppose that it could do that somehow. Then then 129 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: the numbers get get much bigger, and you start to 130 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: the things that limited are literally preventing your head collapsing 131 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: to form a black hole. Because black holes what they 132 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: do is that they're they're the best thing at storing information. 133 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: So if you want to get something the size of 134 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: a head of a human head, and you want to say, 135 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: what's the best thing the size of human head that 136 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: can store information, it's a black hole the size for 137 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: human head that that's the nothing can do it better, 138 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: and so so so that that places a new limit, 139 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: and you can ask, well, again, what what is that 140 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: limit would be? But he's certainly way below grains. No, 141 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: but you're not gonna get anywhere near the magnificence of 142 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: Graham's number. And you could probably get a digit that's 143 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: that's about tens of the seventy and number that's about 144 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: ten to the seventy digits long, and so less than 145 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: a Google digits long. Having said that, you could imagine 146 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: a number like a google plex. A google plex has 147 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: a Google digits. Now I've just said that you can't 148 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: imagine a Google Digit's not possible, but a google plex 149 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: you could, because what you know about a google plex 150 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: is that it's a one followed by a Google zero. 151 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: So you know that all the numbers that come later 152 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: on as zeros, and so there's not much information in that. 153 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: So it doesn't cost as much as many bits. You 154 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 1: don't have to put as many bits in your head 155 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: to imagine that. So what we're really talking about now 156 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: are really a random assortment of digits. Are completely random 157 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,119 Speaker 1: assortment digits the kind that would appear in Graham's number. 158 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: And I don't think you can get passed around tens 159 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: of the seventy, which is a one with seventies zero. 160 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: You couldn't get past that many digits completely randomly sort 161 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: of allocated. At that point, your head is going to 162 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: collapse into a black hole. Now, now backing up to 163 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: the Google and the google plex. Can't can you? Can 164 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: you walk as briefly through the difference between a Google 165 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: and google plex, and and and maybe realms beyond that? 166 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: This is this is about the only area of fantastic 167 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: numbers that i'd I'd really heard anything about prior to 168 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: reading your book. Yes, So, so Google is is um 169 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: it's a number which is which is a one followed 170 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: by a hundred zero. So I think everybody would agree 171 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: that sounds like quite a big number. And it goes 172 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: back to to a physicist called Edward Kasner who is Columbia, 173 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: and he was writing a popular science book and he 174 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: was trying to sort of know convey He really wanted 175 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: to show how big infinity he was, and so he 176 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: wanted to quote with numbers that we all think are 177 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: really big, like a one followed by a hundred zeros. 178 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: And he said, well, okay, that's really small compared to infinity, right, 179 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: even though something really big is actually really small compared 180 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: to infinity. So he came up with this one with 181 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: a hundred zeros. He wanted a name for this number, 182 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: so at the time he asked his nephew who was 183 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: nine years old at the time. He was called Milton Serata. 184 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: He said, can you come up with a name for this? 185 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: And and Milton said, well, a Google, which is an 186 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: absolute stroke of genius, right, It's such a great name. 187 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: And and then so they wanted to then develop things further, 188 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: so then they wanted an even bigger number, again building 189 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: on this idea that it's nothing compared to infinity and 190 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: and so so he said, well, okay, I'm gonna quote 191 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: with the idea of a Google plex. It's going to 192 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: be an even bigger number. Well how big? So Kasna 193 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: then goes to to Milton. He says, well, how big 194 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: should it be? And Milton's like, well, it should be 195 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: a one, not followed by a hundred zeros, but zeros 196 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: until you get tired. But Kasner is like, you know, 197 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: a sort of you know, steamed academic at Columbia and 198 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: all that. That's just not precise enough for him. So 199 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: he went with it which are much more sort of 200 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: well defined idea, which is a google plex should be 201 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: a one followed by a Google zeros. So a Google 202 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: is already massive. That's a one followed by a hundred zeros. 203 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: A google plex is a one followed by a Google zero. 204 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: So it's a whole new level of big compared to 205 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: what we normally used to. And then it just it 206 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: keeps building on that. Right, there's there's even like what 207 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: a google plexian is that the next level. So so yeah, 208 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean this is this is a really nice, nice idea. 209 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: You can really now start to to really build very 210 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: big numbers, very very quickly using this this mathematical technique 211 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: called recursion. So for example, you can develop the idea 212 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: of a Google duplex. What a Google duplex, Well, it's 213 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: a one followed by a Google plex zeros. And then 214 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: you can go to a Google triplex. Well, you can 215 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: probably guess what it's gonna be. It's gonna be a 216 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: one followed by a Google duplex zeros. And then a 217 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: Google quadruplex is a one followed by a Google triplex zeros. 218 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: And you can see each time you're growing the number 219 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: just by so much, by such an unimaginably large amounts, 220 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: And that's what. You're not just adding zero every time, 221 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: You're kind of really ballooning the number of zeros on 222 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: the end of this number in Gargangian proportions. And that's 223 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: what and it's this power of mathematical riccasion that allows 224 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: you to do that. Now you also talk about fantastic 225 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: numbers that are I guess you would say smaller than 226 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: the main example that comes to mind. You refer to 227 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: this several times in the book is a number associated 228 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: with Olympic sprinter Hussain Bolt. Would you tell us a 229 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: little bit about this number? Yeah, yeah, so so well, 230 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: actually this is one of my big numbers. Actually, even 231 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: though it doesn't seem that it's it's actually it's one 232 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: of my big numbers. So I can read out the number. 233 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: What it is one point, I think it's fifteen zero 234 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: eight five eight, So it's just a number just slightly 235 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: north of one. So it's it doesn't seem like a 236 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: big number. But but in my book, I say it 237 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: is a big number. And the reason is it's it 238 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: measures the amount by which Usain Bolt managed to slow 239 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: down time. And when he was he was running in 240 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: the World Championships and I think Berlin Um and he 241 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: set this the world record. And this is due to 242 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: the effects of relativity, so that when when somebody actually 243 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: moves quickly, they actually slow time actually slows down for them. 244 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: And actually this is the amount by which Usain Bolt 245 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: was actually able to slow down time due to the 246 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: effects of Einstein's theory. And it's compared to the people 247 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: in the stadium, for example, this is this was the 248 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: difference that that he experienced. So it's one of the 249 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: one of the weird consequences of it is that you 250 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: can actually it's not that you say, but actually, even 251 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: though he slowed down time, it's not that he that 252 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: he actually ran the race any quicker. He still runs 253 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: the race at roughly ten ms per second. It's actually 254 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: an even more strange consequence. He actually the track also 255 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: shrinks for him a little bit, so so he actually 256 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: runs it in less time, but in the same speed. Therefore, 257 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: the track shrinks because the relative to him, the tracks moving, 258 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: And this is another effect of relativity, one of the 259 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: remarkable things. And and yes, you could perhaps argue that 260 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: he didn't actually finish the race because the tracks rank 261 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: so he didn't run quite a hundred Wow. I was 262 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: really blown away with this, because you know, you often 263 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: hear the standard analogies concerning airplanes and pyramids and so 264 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: forth when it comes to time dilation and so forth. 265 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: But but I hadn't. I hadn't heard this particular example 266 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: for this is great. Yeah, I mean, it's true. It's true. 267 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: If like taxi drivers, if you imagine a taxi driver 268 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: that's driving around I don't know any city in New 269 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: York wherever, you know, sort of forty fifty years of 270 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: their life because of that extra extra speed that they're 271 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: picking up. That's going to accumulate over time. And actually 272 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: they can probably leap forward in time by probably I 273 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: think about a micro second over the course of their career. 274 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: It's not a lot, but it's still fairly amazing when 275 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: you think about it. So they've got the knowledge, and 276 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: then they have that as well, right, Oh yeah, of course, 277 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: yeah exactly, not just the knowledge, Yeah, they actually got it. 278 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: They actually get a little bit younger. So your book 279 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: makes makes use of written numbers, um. And and then 280 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: of course you have this wonderful YouTube series number file, 281 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: and in that you benefit not only from some fantastic 282 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: descriptions and pop culture tie ends as you do in 283 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: the book, but you also have a lot of helpful illustrations. 284 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: Uh So I was I was curious since you are 285 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: a regular communicator of of this this topic. Um is 286 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: it is? It? Is? It? Is? It more challenging or 287 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: in some cases almost too challenging to describe some of 288 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: these numbers without the visual aids or the actual numerals 289 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: to like visually present somebody with. Yeah, I think you 290 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: so this is where the physics comes in in some respects. Right. 291 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: So on the one hand, if you really want to 292 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: describe the number, like I said, a number like Grams number, 293 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: you do need those visual aids because it's not a 294 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: number that you're going to sort of stumble across in 295 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: any kind of normal environments. Right, It's not a number 296 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: you're going to see on on a price tag, at 297 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: least you'd hope not. And you know, so these are 298 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: you need new notation, new sort of symbolism to to 299 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: sort of actually even describe the number. So you've got 300 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: to introduce that. There's just no getting away from it. 301 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: But I guess what you can do is described the 302 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: physics associated with it, and and that you can certainly do, 303 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: you know, just just just with words. And you know, 304 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: in the case of a number like Grahams number, you 305 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: can talk about how you just can't picture in your 306 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: head because your head will will collapse to for a 307 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: black hole. And that's already going to make people think, wow, 308 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: that number. There's something big of something big and crazy 309 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: about that number. Or a google plex, you know, when 310 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: you can talk about a universe that's that's a google 311 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: plex meters across. And then you can ask, well, if 312 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: the universe is that big, if the universe is literally 313 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: that large, then it's likely that you would find multiple 314 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: copies of yourself, like literally exact apple Gangers elsewhere in 315 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: this ginormous universe. Yeah, I wasn't. I was. I wasn't 316 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: prepared for dopple gangers to enter into the scenario. So 317 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: there was there was another great part about the book 318 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: for me um and another thing that that comes up 319 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: in the book that I was very intrigued by. I 320 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: was wondering if you might talk about is the the 321 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: idea of the of the holographic truth? Yes, so the 322 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: holographic truth is I mean, it's an idea. It's probably 323 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: the most important idea I would say that's emerged from 324 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: theoretical physics in in the last thirty years. And it's 325 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: it's actually mind blowing when you really think about what 326 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: it pertains to. It's it's it's this following statement that 327 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: essentially one of the dimensions of space that we experience 328 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: around it. So we normally talk about say three dimensions 329 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: of space, Well one of them could well be an illusion. 330 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: It might not exist, and it's really remarkable. So what 331 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: we're saying is that there are two ways in which 332 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: you can describe the physics that we see around as 333 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: On the one hand, we can imagine three dimensional world 334 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: with a gravitational force and the force of gravity doing 335 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: its thing, with planets around the Sun and so on 336 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: and so forth. On the other hand, there's a completely 337 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: equivalent description of the same phenomena which just uses two 338 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: dimensions and no gravity. So think of it a bit like, 339 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, on the one hand, somebody's you know, in English, 340 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: we say if we see a place of meat balls, 341 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: we call them meat balls, but a Spaniard might call 342 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: them album the gas. They're both describing the same things, 343 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: they're just using a different language. And that's kind of 344 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: what what the holographic truth says. It says that you 345 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: can have a theory like a three dimensional world with gravity, 346 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: and you can use that to describe all the physical 347 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: phenomena you see, or use this different language which has 348 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: no gravity and only requires two dimensions of space. So 349 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: is it true of our world? We don't know. It's 350 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: a conjecture. It's a conjecture that has sort of evidence 351 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: coming from from the physics of black holes. There are 352 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: actually concrete examples that we know of of sort of 353 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: toy universe is so not our universe, but but but 354 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: space times that may be that the higher dimensional there 355 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: may be warped in weird and wonderful ways. And you 356 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: can think about gravity in these in these simple toy universes, 357 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: and you can show that there's an equivalent description in 358 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: one dimension less like a holographic description, and it's called 359 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: a hologram because that's essentially what what holograms do? Right? 360 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: If you think of a hologram, what have you got? 361 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: You've got an image on a that's stored on a 362 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: holographic plate. You know, it's just some light and dark 363 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: bands on a holographic plate, a two dimensional plate. It's 364 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: stores a bunch of information that way, But that's just 365 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: one way of looking at the information. You can decode 366 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: it in a different way by shining monochromatic light through 367 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: it and creating a three damage. You're not creating any 368 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: new information. It's the same information, just stored either in 369 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: two dimensions or three. And it's that seems to be 370 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: that that seems to be a fundamental property of gravitation, 371 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: of gravitational worlds that you can think of them as 372 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: as like as I said, a three D world with gravity, 373 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: or you just forget about gravity and consider a world 374 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: with one dimension or less and you can describe exactly 375 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: the same physical phenomena. Now here's another question that that 376 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: that came came up reading the book that that I 377 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: don't know if of all our listeners are necessarily would 378 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: have thought of this question. I think some of them 379 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: would have. And that comes to infinity um infinity, Like 380 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: sometimes it's easy to think of like, okay, infinity is 381 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: the it's it's if we think of it as a number. 382 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: We think it's the eight on its side representing infinity. 383 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: Is infinity a number? And if it's not a number, 384 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: like what do we think of it at? How do 385 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: we classif high infinity? So I love this question because 386 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: the answer is that it's both not a number and 387 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: lots of numbers. This is the wonderful thing about infinity. 388 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: So it depends how you want to think about infinity. 389 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: And I think most of us when we intuitively think 390 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: about infinity, we kind of think of like I don't 391 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: know the infinite distance, you know, or infinite time, And 392 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: what we're really thinking there is we're thinking of it 393 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: is like a limit is something that's just just beyond 394 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: our finite realm. That that that's you know, if you 395 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: keep on counting forever, you know, it's kind of the 396 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: at the end of that, you're sort of almost beyond 397 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: the end of that. Now, that's in some sense thinking 398 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: of infinity as not a number, as a limit of saying, 399 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: you know, the whole numbers. But what Cancelor Judge cancel that, 400 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, the great German mathematician from the late Victorian times, 401 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: what what what he did was actually taught us how 402 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: to count beyond infinity. So literally, using really smart ideas 403 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: associated with something called set theory, he was able to 404 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: show that actually you can have all the sort of 405 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: finite numbers, and beyond that you can have infinity. But 406 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: there's that's just one layer of infinity. You can have 407 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: the infinity, which is all the whole numbers, but you 408 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: can also have a different layer of infinity, which is 409 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: all the numbers between zero and one. So think of 410 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: the continuum of the numbers between zero and one. That's 411 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: you think there's an infinite number of numbers between zero 412 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: and one, but that's actually a different infinity to all 413 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: the whole numbers. So you've got, you know, these discreet infinities, 414 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: continuum infinities, and they they have different sizes, and they 415 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: have you have many layers of what can be an 416 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: infinite number. And this is what Cancel really really began 417 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: to explore and and and develop. And he met a 418 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: lot of resistance when he was doing it. He actually 419 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: people thought he was crazy. He sort of fell into 420 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: a lot of depression. Um, you know, he was in 421 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 1: battles with with someone called Chronicker, who was kind of, 422 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, the big guy in Berlin at the time, 423 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: the elite university, and Jereman. He he thought that Cancer 424 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: was just delving into sort of witchcraft and he was 425 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: a shot. He called him as Charlatan, a corruptor of youth. 426 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: And this really bothered Cancer and actually quite a sad story. 427 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean, Cancer actually sort of really fell into into 428 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: quite a bad depression. Whether it's because of this or 429 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: whether he was he was predisposed anyway, it's not clear. 430 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: But he actually ended his day sort of very sort 431 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: of emaciated in a in a sanatorium, essentially starving because 432 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: of the effects of the First World War at the time. 433 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: And I'm not having enough food, so it's quite a 434 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: tragic tale in the end, but he was certainly a 435 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: tremendous mathematician, and now all his ideas are really you know, 436 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: I think people acknowledging for the genius that he was. Yeah, 437 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: of course brings to mind those um like the infinity 438 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: hotel discrete scenarios that are used to describe infinity. I've 439 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: always found those to be super interesting and and men 440 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: mind blowing. Yeah, I mean that's so, that's that's what 441 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean. So, so, as I said, cancer sort of 442 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: had these these different layers. So you can sort of 443 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: imagine the first infinity, which he called alve zero, which 444 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: is he defined as the set of all of all 445 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: the whole numbers, essentially all the natural numbers you know, 446 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: one to three for all the way up to well infinity, 447 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: all of them basically, so that that's what he called 448 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 1: the sort of first infinity. But then you can have 449 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: these higher infinities, which are the you know, things like 450 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: the the the set of the continuum, essentially the continuum 451 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: between zero and one, so not just all the all 452 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: the fractions and irrational numbers, but also the irrational numbers 453 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: numbers like one over the square out of tow that 454 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: kind of thing um and and this is a new 455 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: letter that he actually proved that they're actually got a 456 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: bigger infinity. And it's not immedially obvious, but but he 457 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: did show it, and it's it's it's remarkable, and and 458 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: there's so many sort of things about infinity. There's so 459 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: many paradoxes associated with them. For example, one one thing 460 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: you can say is you think about the number of 461 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: the more square numbers or whole numbers, and you think, well, 462 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: you think naively, obviously there are more whole numbers and 463 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: square numbers because one is a square, but but two 464 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: isn't a square, and three isn't a square, Okay, four 465 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: is So it seems that there's obviously more whole numbers 466 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: than square numbers. But actually it's not true. And the 467 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: reason you know that's not true because you just take 468 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: a square number and you can map it to its 469 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: square roots and you get the whole numbers. So so 470 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: the number of whole numbers is actually exactly the same 471 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: as the number of square numbers. It's completely crazy. And 472 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: these these parents and it's the same. There are the 473 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: same number of even numbers, there are even at odd numbers, 474 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: and there's all these one there's the same number of 475 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: numbers between zero and one as there are between zero 476 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: and two. There's all these paradoxes that are merged just 477 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: the minute you start to think about infinity. And that's 478 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: why most mathematicians for a long time just stayed away 479 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: from it. But Cancer was brave enough to climb into 480 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: this infinite heaven and explore it. Now. One of the 481 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: numbers that that comes up a lot in your in 482 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: your book, and you've done your videos on this as well. Um, 483 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm also afraid to ask about it because it just 484 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: seems kind of I get confused anytime I read anything 485 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: about it. And that's this idea of and I'm not 486 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: even sure what I'm saying it correctly? Is it? Do 487 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: we say tree three? Yeah? That's right, Yeah, yeah, three three? 488 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, what is this? What is tree three? So? 489 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: So there's a particular game that was that was developed 490 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: involving some trees, right, So, so the details aren't too important, 491 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: it's just but basically you draw these little stick trees 492 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 1: and you have some seeds, you have some lines which 493 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: are kind of like the branches, and you and you 494 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: build these trees. Right, So, so what are the rules 495 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: of the game is is that you know, for example, 496 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: you can't have a tree that's got a bit of 497 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 1: a tree that that's has appeared before. So so if 498 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: I draw, like, you know, one particular tree, then later 499 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: on you can't draw a bigger tree that's got my 500 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: tree stuck in it somehow. It's it's just not allowed. 501 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: That would end the game. And so there's a bunch 502 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: of rules in how you draw these trees and build 503 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: up this this particular game, which I call the game 504 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: of trees. Now, how long the game depends on how 505 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: many different types of seeds you have. So you could have, 506 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: for example, just black seeds, okay, or maybe you can 507 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: have black seeds and you're also got white seeds, or 508 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: maybe you've got black seats, white seeds and yellow seeds. 509 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's whole bunch of possibilities. How 510 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: many seeds you play with sort of of changes how 511 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: long the game can last. For now, if you've just 512 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: got one seed, the game can only last one move. 513 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: You can just write down one seed and that's it. 514 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: You can't write down anything else because anything else that 515 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: follow is going to contain a tree that went before. Okay, 516 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: you've got two seeds, like it's like a black and 517 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: a white seed. The game can last up to you 518 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: can draw up to three trees and the game will 519 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: automatically and after just three moves, it can't go beyond 520 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: three moves. So you've got this this sort of sequence. 521 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: So we've got one seed, you can play only one move. 522 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: You've got two seeds, you can play three moves. And 523 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: so then you go to three seeds, and you might think, well, 524 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: I can I start for one and it went to 525 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,239 Speaker 1: three and I've got three seeds, Maybe maybe I can 526 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: play ten moves or something called fifteen moves something. It's 527 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: not gonna be some it shouldn't be anything crazy. Well 528 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: it is. So this sequence just goes bang. It just 529 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: goes from one. So just from one seed you get 530 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: one move, two seeds, you get three moves, and then 531 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: three seeds you get tree. Three moves is where the 532 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: game will last too. And this is a number which 533 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: just blows everything else. So we talked about Google and 534 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: a Google place, Well that's just nothing compared to three three. 535 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: Talk about Graham's number which will collapse, your heads fall 536 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: and black hole, that's nothing compared to three three Tree 537 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: three is just it's it's impossible. I mean, I actually 538 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: think it is impossible to imagine how ridiculously big this 539 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: number is. And it's just so mundane. Where it comes 540 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: from is this game. He starts off you. So you're 541 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: playing this game with two seeds, as game keeps ending 542 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: after three moves, and then somebody comes along and adds 543 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: a different color of seed, and you're like, okay, how 544 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: long is the how long can the game last? Now? 545 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: And somebody says tree three, and this is tree three, 546 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: just and not but it's actually too big for the universe. 547 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: Just whoa where did that leap come from? The leap 548 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: should not be that big, but that that's that's so 549 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: that's in essence what what tree three is. And it 550 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: is too big for the universe. So one of the 551 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: things I worked out was suppose you're playing this game 552 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: involving these trees. So you're writing drawing these trees, right, 553 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: So you play one, go draw a tree. Play next, 554 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: go draw a tree. And so you've got three seeds, 555 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: three different colors of seeds. So we know the limit 556 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: of the game is tree three moves treating three three 557 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: different trees in the forest. How long could you finish 558 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: the game. And one of the thing I imagine is, 559 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, you're playing this game at high speed, so 560 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: you're playing it as fast as spacetime will allow. So 561 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: you literally, if you play any fastest, spacetime will break 562 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: due to quantum effects. So you play it's super super fast. 563 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: And so you played again, You played again, You play 564 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: it through a lifetime. You'll get nowhere near tree three. 565 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: After you die, and maybe you replace yourself with some 566 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. You've got two AI machines playing to each other, 567 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, powered by the light of the sun. They'll 568 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: keep playing the game at this crazy pace, and they 569 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,719 Speaker 1: keep going and keep going. The sun gets bigger, you know, 570 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: he goes to a red giant. All these things happen. 571 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: Eventually it falls back forms a white dwarf. Over many 572 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: billions of years, and still this these two ais are 573 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: still playing the game because they have got nowhere near 574 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: tree three, and they're playing at breakneck speed as well, 575 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: and so eventually they lose power. They can't get any 576 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: power because the sun dies, right, so they need to 577 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,239 Speaker 1: somehow develop some new technology which gets energy from I 578 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: don't know, the cosmic by background radiation and the game 579 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: goes on, and the game goes on, and the game 580 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: goes on. In fact, the game will go on way 581 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: beyond the sort of heat death of the universe, and 582 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: still you will not get to the end of tree three. 583 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: And actually there's a phenomenal called Puan career recurrence which 584 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: says that in any system, in any finite system, you'll 585 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: eventually get back to where you started. And that applies 586 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: to our universe too. So you can imagine a pack 587 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: of cards. You know, if you shuffle a pack of cards, 588 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: he off times. You're a lot of times, but enough 589 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: times you'll eventually get back to the point where all 590 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: the cards are in order. It'll take a long time, 591 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: but it will happen eventually. It's the same with our universe. 592 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: You shuffle the universe enough times, you allow it to 593 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: evolve for long enough, eventually you'll get back to where 594 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: it started. It will reset, And that reset time for 595 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: our universe is actually shorter than the time it would 596 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: take to play this game of trees all the way 597 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: up to three three moves, playing as fast as you 598 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: possibly can. And so even even if you could do it, 599 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: even if you could live past all these you know, 600 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: gargantia and time scales. The universe is just going to go. Now, mate, 601 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: game over, we're resetting. You ain't going to get to 602 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: the game which you ain't gonna end this game. So 603 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: three three is actually a number that's that's actually too 604 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: big for the universe. That's how big it is. It's 605 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 1: just so astounding that it as you describe it, it's 606 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: just it's such a short step to reach that point. 607 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: Because because a lot of these names, like when you're 608 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: talking about the Googles and the google Plexes, it's easy 609 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: to think, well, those those big numbers live out there 610 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: like they're like in the d deep water. But then 611 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: this seems to illustrate that the deep water is is 612 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: far closer than you think, and it's not I wouldn't 613 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: even call it deep water. It's it's water. That's you know, 614 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: you're sort of like, yeah, you're just sort of tiptoeing 615 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: across the you know, through the shallows and they're doing 616 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: and then bang, it just gives away underneath you. And 617 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: and there's just it's a it's bottomless as far as 618 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: you're concerned. You know, I wouldn't even got a d 619 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: what it's beyond deep it's too it's it's too deep 620 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: for the universe. So ultimately, what do fantastic numbers reveal 621 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: about the cosmos? Like what is the what I guess, 622 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: what is the lesson of big numbers, fantastic numbers, etcetera. 623 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: So so for me, I think all the ideas that 624 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: I talk about in the context of the big numbers 625 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: in the book, they all come back to the same 626 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: thing which we've talked about, which is the holographic truth, 627 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: the idea that that a lot of the ideas associated 628 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: with black holes and and how much information you can 629 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: fit inside a black hole. Where that information stored for example, 630 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: is it stored inside the black call or is it 631 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: stored on the edges of the black hole? And these 632 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: are ideas which which which leads you to to to 633 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: the to the holographic truth, to the idea that actually, 634 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: maybe the information in our world isn't stored inside the world. 635 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: Maybe it's stored on the boundary of the world, at 636 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: the edge, on the walls that surround it. And in 637 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: that sense, that's why it's it's holographic. All the ideas, 638 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: all the limits that we're talking about, you know, counting 639 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: how much information you can store in ahead, you know, 640 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: and when it's going to turn into a black hole, 641 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, counting how long it takes for our universe 642 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: to reset itself. All these ideas come back to the 643 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: question of of how our universe stores its information, does 644 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: its story inside and if so, how does it story? Well, 645 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: actually no, it turns out it's seemed like it stores 646 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: it on the edge of space, and that allows you 647 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: to count how much information there is in that space 648 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: and how many different ways you can combine things. But 649 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: it all comes back to that holographic truth. Um. I 650 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: have to ask about this because I again am ad 651 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: is um his versed in mathematics. Uh, there's a lot 652 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: of people out there. And one of the things that 653 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: I kept thinking about reading the book was just a 654 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: one quick joke from the season one episode of the 655 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: British comedy look Around You, in which the narrator that 656 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: the episode is about math, and the narrator tells us 657 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: that the largest known number is around forty five million, 658 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: but that larger numbers might exist and they like speculated 659 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: forty five million in one could be another number and 660 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, of course that's absurd and that's absurdist humor. 661 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: But Um, there's something about that that seems to sort 662 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: of ring true with with a lot of these uh, 663 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: these these these concepts. And I was wondering what you 664 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: thought about the role of absurdity in contemplating big numbers. Yeah, absolutely, no, 665 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: I really do think so. When you think of something 666 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: like three three, at least within our universe, you can't 667 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: fit it in. It cannot fit in. There's nothing that could, 668 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, you could describe because it's that's too big 669 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: for anything that we can talk about in our universe. Now, 670 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: you might imagine other universes which could accommodate it. And 671 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: in a you know, a sort of multiverse scenario, like 672 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: maybe you get from something like string theory, could you 673 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: get universes that can contain three three? Well maybe we 674 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: don't know, right, we don't know enough about about the 675 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: multiverse of string theory. But but it's not inconceivable potentially so, 676 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: but certainly in our world you can't. It's interesting. One 677 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: of the things I did a video quite quite recently 678 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: actually about the biggest number that nobody will ever think of. 679 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: And I did these sort of quite a bunch of 680 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: estimates based on a bunch of dubious sort of you know, 681 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: sort of assumptions, which I acknowledge with quite dubious. But 682 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: but I think I came up with an estimate that 683 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: if you think of a random seventy three digit number, 684 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: um also something of that order, then probably nobody's going 685 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: to ever ever think of it other than you. I mean, 686 00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, so I'm not saying, like, just think of 687 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: a one followed by SEO is clearly not something like that, 688 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: but just completely random, random seventy seventy three digit number 689 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: something like that. Chances are nobody in the history of humanity, 690 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: either before or to come, we'll ever think of that number. 691 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: And it's kind of that kind of mind blowing. I 692 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: think it's kind of yours. Just think of it, and 693 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: that's yours forever. So just everybody should just write down 694 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: a seventy three digit number and name after themselves. Well 695 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: that's wonderful. Well, Tony, thanks for taking time out of 696 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: your day to chat with us. I want to make 697 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: sure we're we're hitting all the plugs here. The book 698 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: which which is? Which? Is out? I believe it's out now, correct? Yeah, yeah, 699 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: it's actually released today in the US. I probably should 700 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: say today, should I guess it'll be it'll all will 701 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: have been released two days ago when we published this, 702 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: so yeah, it's it's out. It's Fantastic Numbers and Where 703 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: to Find Them? Um. And then the YouTube series is 704 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: number File, correct, Yes, so I appear on Number File. 705 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: There's another channel I appear on which is physics Base 706 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: called sixty Symbols. Um. So they're both made by by 707 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: Brady Harron and yeah, so so I pay regularly on 708 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: both of those so it's a lot of fun. But yeah, 709 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: it's um. I hope people enjoy enjoy the book. It's 710 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: and just don't think too recklessly about Grave's number, because 711 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: what's gonna have. Yeah, we don't want anybody's heads to 712 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: collapse into black holes absolutely. All right, Well, well thanks 713 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Have I hope you have 714 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: a great day. Thanks all right, Well, thanks once again 715 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: to Tony for taking time out of his day to 716 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: chat with me here. The book again is Fantastic Numbers 717 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: and Where to Find Them? Highly recommended for anyone who 718 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: was at all intrigued by what we were talking about 719 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: here today. As always, if you want to reach out 720 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: to us and ask any any questions, share your relationship 721 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: with fantastic numbers. Well, you can find us in a 722 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: number of ways. Let's see if you email us and 723 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: I'll give you that email. On a second, you can 724 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: have access to the discord where you can discuss show 725 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: matters with with with other Stuff to Blow your Mind listeners. 726 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: There's also the Stuff to Blow your Mind discussion Mondule 727 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: that is on Facebook. You can find that and seek 728 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: access to that as well. And of course thanks as 729 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,479 Speaker 1: always to Seth Nichols Johnson for producing the show here 730 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: and yeah, if you want to get in touch with us, 731 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: you can simply email us at contact at stuff to 732 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind 733 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from 734 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 735 00:37:40,680 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. No