Speaker 1: What stories am I telling myself? Well, one that often
Speaker 1: comes up is, you know, I have to get this
Speaker 1: done tonight, Like, well do you I want to? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Do you have to get it done? Well?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: What does it do to you to force yourself to
Speaker 1: get it done when you're just feeling spent? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess there's a pretty big cost there. You end up
Speaker 1: sobbing at the end of the night.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 3: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 3: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 3: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 3: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 3: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 3: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 3: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 3: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent
Speaker 3: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 3: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 3: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 3: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Seth
Speaker 3: Jay Gillihan, a licensed psychologist who specializes in mindfulness centered
Speaker 3: cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety, depression, insomnia, and other conditions.
Speaker 3: Doctor gillihan has written and lectured nationally and internationally on
Speaker 3: CBT and how the brain is involved in regulating our moods.
Speaker 3: He's a fellow at the Center for Neuroscience and Society
Speaker 3: at Penn and also hosts a weekly Think act B podcast. Today,
Speaker 3: Eric and Seth discuss his book Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy,
Speaker 3: A Simple Path to Healing, Hope and Peace.
Speaker 2: Hi, Seth, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Hello Eric, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy to have you on. We're going to
Speaker 2: be discussing your book, Mindful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, A Simple
Speaker 2: Path to Healing, hope and Peace. But before we do that,
Speaker 2: let's start like we always do with the parable. There's
Speaker 2: a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say,
Speaker 2: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 2: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 2: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 2: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 2: and hatred and fear. And grandchild stops and they think
Speaker 2: about it. For a second. They look up at their grandparents,
Speaker 2: they say, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says,
Speaker 2: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 2: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 2: your life and in the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've always loved that parable. The first thing that
Speaker 1: comes to mind comes from my work with anxiety. I
Speaker 1: treat a lot of anxiety as a therapist, and I've
Speaker 1: dealt with my own anxiety a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: I think we have this feeling of I just want
Speaker 1: to get rid of my anxiety or overcome it in
Speaker 1: a kind of once in for all way, which is understandable,
Speaker 1: of course I get that, but it seems like what
Speaker 1: actually happens with our fears, we don't override it in
Speaker 1: the brain. It's like we can erase a fear memory
Speaker 1: and replace it with a safety memory or a safety association.
Speaker 1: Let's say we've been through a really difficult experience and
Speaker 1: we've maybe as kids we didn't feel safe allowing ourselves
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable emotionally, so as adults we carry that
Speaker 1: forward and we keep protecting ourselves in ways that cut
Speaker 1: us off from intimacy. So we might then learn in
Speaker 1: a relationship like oh, I can let my guard down
Speaker 1: and I don't get punished or hurt the way that
Speaker 1: I did as a kid. But it's not like that
Speaker 1: old association is gone. It's not like now I always
Speaker 1: feel safe in relationships or it's always automatic. There are
Speaker 1: these two now representations in the brain. One is for
Speaker 1: vulnerability is dangerous, one is vulnerability is okay. And which
Speaker 1: of those gets expressed, as the parable suggests, has everything
Speaker 1: to do with where our attention is focused, how much
Speaker 1: we're facing the things we're afraid of versus running away
Speaker 1: from them. But like so many simple and memorable parables,
Speaker 1: I think it captures so much that's true on many
Speaker 1: different levels. There's one other level that won't get into
Speaker 1: in detail. What it has to do with, in a
Speaker 1: more general way, the types of deeply held beliefs and
Speaker 1: assumptions that we bring into the world and well that
Speaker 1: we're taught and we internalize at an early age. And
Speaker 1: what I'm really interested in lately is how it can
Speaker 1: start to shift some of those in more helpful ways.
Speaker 1: I think, in directions that probably are really consistent with
Speaker 1: the types of things you tend to talk about with
Speaker 1: your guests on this podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that idea of we don't get rid
Speaker 2: of those earlier memories, we just now have a choice
Speaker 2: of different potential ones. The example I often use is like,
Speaker 2: I know, now, if I'm in a room with men
Speaker 2: who are about my father's age, and if they're slightly disproving,
Speaker 2: like even not smiling, I start to get anxious. And
Speaker 2: I know why. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen,
Speaker 2: But I also know I've had lots of great experiences
Speaker 2: with men my father's age where it's gone very well
Speaker 2: and they've become friends and mentors, and so yeah, like
Speaker 2: you're saying, I have to sort of in that moment
Speaker 2: recognize what's happening and choose what kind of action I
Speaker 2: want to take based on my values, but also based
Speaker 2: on like, Okay, there's examples of safety here, there's not
Speaker 2: only examples of fear. So I love the way you
Speaker 2: brought that up, and I think as we go on,
Speaker 2: that's going to tie to your main method that comes
Speaker 2: up in your book, which is think, act and B.
Speaker 2: We'll get to that in a minute, but where i'd
Speaker 2: love to start is kind of the journey that brought
Speaker 2: you to this book because there was a lot of
Speaker 2: personal things going on with you. I think that brought
Speaker 2: you from being a CBT therapist, and that was kind
Speaker 2: of one thing into viewing CBT in a different way
Speaker 2: and adding some things to it. And I'm just wonder
Speaker 2: if you could share kind of that story or that journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah, things seem to be going well in my life
Speaker 1: for several decades for the most part, and then around
Speaker 1: age forty or so, health wise, things just kind of
Speaker 1: seemed to fall apart little by little and then all
Speaker 1: at once. As the saying goes, it started with some
Speaker 1: vocal challenges. It's not having volume or stamina for speaking,
Speaker 1: which is hard as I was a professor and a
Speaker 1: therapist at the time. And then eventually it was just
Speaker 1: profound fatigue, horrible insomnia, and a lot of just kind
Speaker 1: of weird, non specific symptoms that were never fully explained
Speaker 1: by all the doctors and specialists that I went to,
Speaker 1: and things like extreme sensitivity to heat or cold. All
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff had just never been part of my experience.
Speaker 1: I'd always been active, running and going to the gym
Speaker 1: several times a week, doing triathlons, So I mean it
Speaker 1: just laid me low in so many ways, and eventually
Speaker 1: I was extremely stressed because I was having to cut
Speaker 1: back on my work in a major way and it
Speaker 1: was leading to financial problems, and I wound up depressed,
Speaker 1: and I just I had this sense over and over
Speaker 1: that I've come to the end of myself. I've just
Speaker 1: come to the end of myself. I felt suicidal a
Speaker 1: lot of the time. And then I had a background
Speaker 1: in mindfulness around that time, and I used it some
Speaker 1: in my clinical practice, which is mostly cognitive and behavioral,
Speaker 1: so focusing more on traditional ways of changing our thoughts
Speaker 1: and our actions. But I had never had an experience
Speaker 1: like this where I realized, in this particular moment one evening,
Speaker 1: on the couch after dinner, feeling completely done, I realized
Speaker 1: that the end of myself was the beginning of something else.
Speaker 1: It seems so obvious now, but you know there's obvious
Speaker 1: insights when you experience them in a real way, when
Speaker 1: they hit you in the gut, You're just like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I've heard this a thousand times, but I've
Speaker 1: never known it in the way that I know it
Speaker 1: in this moment. And that was really kind of the
Speaker 1: seed for the book. Certainly, but for so much a
Speaker 1: kind of awareness and awakening that continues, that realization that
Speaker 1: not only is the end of my kind of small
Speaker 1: self ego not the end, but it sort of has
Speaker 1: to end in a way for what's next or what's
Speaker 1: possible to begin. And so that really was kind of
Speaker 1: the outgrowth of everything that came from there.
Speaker 2: So something I'm going to be doing a little more
Speaker 2: often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what
Speaker 2: you're here. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but
Speaker 2: only if combined with action and integration. So before we
Speaker 2: move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up
Speaker 2: for you as you listen to this. Are there any
Speaker 2: things you're currently doing that or feeding your bad wolf
Speaker 2: that might make sense to remove, or any things you
Speaker 2: could do to feed your good wolf that you're not
Speaker 2: currently doing. So, if you have the headspace for it,
Speaker 2: I'd love if you could just pause for a second
Speaker 2: and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today
Speaker 2: or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is.
Speaker 2: A really useful strategy can be having something external, a
Speaker 2: prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges
Speaker 2: you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year,
Speaker 2: I've been sending little Good Wolf reminders to some of
Speaker 2: my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages
Speaker 2: two times per week that give them a little bit
Speaker 2: of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second
Speaker 2: and come off autopilot. If you want, I can send
Speaker 2: them to you too. I do it totally fore and
Speaker 2: people seem to really love them. Just drop your information
Speaker 2: at one youfeed dot net slash sms and I can
Speaker 2: send them to you. It's totally free, and if you
Speaker 2: end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily
Speaker 2: opt out. That's one you feed dot net slash sms.
Speaker 2: And now back to the episode. One of the things
Speaker 2: I think is interesting is you tell that story in
Speaker 2: the book. Is this idea that you felt a source
Speaker 2: of shame right that you were a psychologist. Yes, and
Speaker 2: you were battling many of the same issues you've helped
Speaker 2: others to overcome.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You also say, you know, I had a blind spot
Speaker 2: for my own needs, And I think that's an occupational
Speaker 2: hazard of being a psychologist or a teacher, or a
Speaker 2: thought leader or teaching spiritual workshops like I do, or
Speaker 2: any of that stuff. Is that if we're not careful,
Speaker 2: we can feel like we shouldn't suffer or struggle, and
Speaker 2: if we do, we can't talk about that, right, and which,
Speaker 2: of course, as we all know, not talking about what's
Speaker 2: going on is a sure way to almost reinforce it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, Eric, because I had an assumption for
Speaker 1: a long time that I couldn't reveal those things about myself,
Speaker 1: you know, that I couldn't that I had to be
Speaker 1: seen or had to present myself in a certain way,
Speaker 1: as if because of the work that I do or
Speaker 1: the things that I write and talk about, that I
Speaker 1: should be able to transcend these things or not experience them.
Speaker 1: Which is I mean, I think it's arrogant on the
Speaker 1: one hand, yep. And also I don't think people are
Speaker 1: really under the illusion that therapists or other people who
Speaker 1: talk about or write about certain helpful practices somehow like
Speaker 1: have it all figured out. I sort of laugh to
Speaker 1: myself these days when I'll hear someone, you know, who's
Speaker 1: talking about I don't know, maybe a yoga instructor or
Speaker 1: a meditation teacher saying something like, even I struggle with this,
Speaker 1: what do you mean even I as opposed to not
Speaker 1: struggling like so. On the contrary, it seems like the
Speaker 1: people who have insights and realize things that are helpful
Speaker 1: to other people probably have to have experienced and struggle
Speaker 1: with those things themselves. And so it's almost like, I'm
Speaker 1: I don't expect someone who has insights to not struggle.
Speaker 1: I expect them maybe to be more messed up in
Speaker 1: a way than the average person because they need those things,
Speaker 1: They need the insights that they've come to and then
Speaker 1: share with others. I know it's true for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the thing for me is
Speaker 2: I'm always very open and vulnerable about my backstory. It's
Speaker 2: harder to be like right this very second, or right
Speaker 2: this week, I've been battling terrible depression or but I
Speaker 2: try really hard to talk about it. I mean, I've
Speaker 2: talked about on this show in a number of recent episodes.
Speaker 2: I've been going through a difficult time in a number
Speaker 2: of ways, and it feels important to the work itself,
Speaker 2: like it continues to rein force like, oh yeah, difficulty
Speaker 2: and wise response to difficulty, they're both there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, Eric, that is that hit me hard because
Speaker 1: you're so right. It's so easy to say I have
Speaker 1: struggled with these things in the past, and the truth is,
Speaker 1: as we're recording this, yesterday was like right back to
Speaker 1: how I was that experience I described of just being done.
Speaker 1: The best I can understand it. It was a stressful day
Speaker 1: with some good things but some challenging things going on.
Speaker 1: My nervous system got kind of worked up in a
Speaker 1: way that used to be fine. I just power through,
Speaker 1: but now I'm at a point of my health and
Speaker 1: my life when I need to recover from those things. Surprise,
Speaker 1: and I didn't. I just kept going like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: need to do this, I need to do this, and
Speaker 1: then I'll rest. But by the end of the night,
Speaker 1: I was just I was so disheartened and physically done.
Speaker 1: And then I ended up being when our kids went
Speaker 1: to bed, I was just sobbing to my wife's saying,
Speaker 1: I just I can't believe I'm back here. And then
Speaker 1: this was last night, so which I guess technically is
Speaker 1: also in the past, but.
Speaker 2: It's close enough for what we're describing. Yeah, what you
Speaker 2: talked about in the very beginning, right, people want help
Speaker 2: with anxiety, so it's just gone get rid of it,
Speaker 2: you know. I think people turn to meditation, mindfulness, all
Speaker 2: sorts of spiritual solutions, because what we want is the
Speaker 2: end of the suffering, and you know, my experience is
Speaker 2: that that's not the way it is. Right, we can
Speaker 2: dramatically reduce the amount that we suffer, Like my guess
Speaker 2: is with a little bit of perspective like you have now,
Speaker 2: you can look at last night and just be like, well, okay,
Speaker 2: I was way overtired. And you know, I don't need
Speaker 2: to add up to a ton of layers of meaning
Speaker 2: to this. I can just look at it and be like,
Speaker 2: all right, I was exhausted, you know. And I've learned
Speaker 2: how much being really physically tired to me feels like
Speaker 2: deep depression. Like often can't tell the two apart. And
Speaker 2: so I've learned to just be like the end of
Speaker 2: the day, if I'm feeling what feels like kind of blue,
Speaker 2: to be like, well, okay, let's not get all worked
Speaker 2: up about things. Let's just go to bed and see
Speaker 2: how things are in the morning. So I think we
Speaker 2: can reduce our suffering around things, but painful events continue
Speaker 2: to happen. We get tired, we get discouraged, we get
Speaker 2: all the things that humans get. I view this quote
Speaker 2: a lot on the show because it means a lot
Speaker 2: to me. And I was talking with the spiritual teacher
Speaker 2: Adi Ashanti, and he once said that a lot of
Speaker 2: awakening is freedom to not freedom from meaning freedom to
Speaker 2: feel it all, knowing that I'm okay versus freedom from
Speaker 2: feeling things.
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that, and I love Adi Ashanti. Wow.
Speaker 1: I listened to some of his series, a couple of
Speaker 1: them on the Waking Up podcast and interviews with him,
Speaker 1: And listen to your first part of your interview, Yeah,
Speaker 1: with him. I'm looking forward to the second part, the
Speaker 1: more recent ones. Yeah. That is such a crucial difference,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really central to what I've moved toward.
Speaker 1: Am I thinking, you know, from a more kind of
Speaker 1: fixing Western medicine type of approach with cognitive behavioral therapy,
Speaker 1: which is very much about here your symptoms, here's an
Speaker 1: evidence based treatment. Let's tackle those problems and fix those symptoms,
Speaker 1: which is great, and at the same time, it only
Speaker 1: covers so much, right, I Mean, there's almost always something
Speaker 1: left even after the best treatment. And also there's just
Speaker 1: that deeper level of contentment that we can find when
Speaker 1: we don't make fixing the only way to well being.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, it's the human condition. I don't think
Speaker 2: there's an escape for it, nor would I want an
Speaker 2: escape from it, exactly right. I mean there are moments
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, okay, human condition, you can go f off, right,
Speaker 2: like I've had enough, but right, But in general, I'd
Speaker 2: love to spend a little bit of time talking about
Speaker 2: CBT in sort of its classical way, in some of
Speaker 2: the ways that you understand it, because it is a
Speaker 2: really powerful tool for working with our thoughts, and our
Speaker 2: thoughts are often the source of a great deal of
Speaker 2: our suffering and pain. So can you give people who
Speaker 2: aren't really familiar with that term CBT and understanding of
Speaker 2: what are we generally talking about when we talk about
Speaker 2: cognitive behavioral therapy.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. And one of the things that I really
Speaker 1: appreciate about a lot of sort of Eastern spiritual teachers
Speaker 1: is their recognition of the importance of working with thoughts,
Speaker 1: like even you know, in your interview with Adyashanti, you
Speaker 1: mentioned something about you're not kind of trying to leap
Speaker 1: over these unhelpful beliefs that we have by you know,
Speaker 1: some spiritual platitude that somehow just you know, kind of
Speaker 1: glosses over them. The backbone of cognitive behavioral therapy or
Speaker 1: CBT is the realization that's been realized in a lot
Speaker 1: of traditions, you know, in many different places of the
Speaker 1: world and many millennia, that our perspective has a lot
Speaker 1: to do with how we experience life. So it's not
Speaker 1: so much the things that happened to us that shape
Speaker 1: our experience, but it's our interpretation to them. Simple example
Speaker 1: that's often given is you walk by a friend across
Speaker 1: the street, you wave to them, they don't respond. What
Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, your reaction to that has everything
Speaker 1: to do with how you interpret their non response. You know,
Speaker 1: you think like, well, my god, they just blew me off.
Speaker 1: You're probably gonna feel angry hurt. Or if you think, huh,
Speaker 1: they didn't see me, it's like it's kind of a
Speaker 1: non event in your day. Maybe you're slightly disappointed. So
Speaker 1: that shift can be really helpful in getting us out
Speaker 1: of those stock points when we're telling ourselves all these
Speaker 1: stories about like well, this is why my spouse is
Speaker 1: acting this way, and this is what my life means.
Speaker 1: And once you recognize that those are stories, then we
Speaker 1: have some flexibility to question are they actually true, and
Speaker 1: if not, we can think about what's a more useful alternative.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're not being a jerk, maybe they just were
Speaker 1: looking at their phone or something. So they are all
Speaker 1: kinds of applications. But that's sort of the backbone of
Speaker 1: the cognitive part, and the behavioral part is kind of
Speaker 1: in parallel to that. Our actions obviously feedback into our emotions,
Speaker 1: feedback into our thoughts and beliefs, and so we'll tend
Speaker 1: to see and CBT as a triangle with let's say,
Speaker 1: thoughts at the top, feelings one of the lower corners,
Speaker 1: and actions on the other, and they're all interrelated and
Speaker 1: each one affects the other two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the key insight, right,
Speaker 2: is that you know I used to kind of wonder
Speaker 2: do feelings cause thoughts or thoughts cause feelings or you know,
Speaker 2: and you suddenly realize after a little while, like it's
Speaker 2: completely bidirectional. I even sometimes start to wonder whether to
Speaker 2: what degree are they separate things? We talk about them
Speaker 2: as if they're separate, but they always co arise, right,
Speaker 2: you know, you never get one without the other. Very
Speaker 2: rarely do you have, you know, one without the other.
Speaker 2: But it's not really a key point. So with CBT,
Speaker 2: what you're trying to do is you RECOGNI that we
Speaker 2: are meaning making machines. We make meaning out of everything
Speaker 2: that occurs, and that some meanings are more close to
Speaker 2: reality and empowering than others.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we tend to fall into certain
Speaker 1: patterns of unhelpful thoughts, you know, like mine might be
Speaker 1: along the lines of I'm not doing a good enough job.
Speaker 1: I have to do better. This person is criticizing me.
Speaker 1: Someone else's might be more about being like whether or
Speaker 1: not they're loved, whether people like them, maybe they're unlovable
Speaker 1: I think of it. Sometimes it's like the songs or
Speaker 1: the types of songs that our mind is playing quote
Speaker 1: unquote songs. It's like listening to a radio station, you know,
Speaker 1: if you if you hear a few jazz songs, you're like, ah,
Speaker 1: all right, this is a jazz station, you know, or
Speaker 1: classical or pop or whatever. So we can figure out,
Speaker 1: you know, what are our deepest assumptions based on the
Speaker 1: kind of moment to moment thoughts that we're getting. If
Speaker 1: there are thoughts around failure and maybe I have this
Speaker 1: deep seated what we call a core belief that I'm
Speaker 1: a failure or I'm going to fail, or if I
Speaker 1: see danger everywhere, maybe I have this core belief that
Speaker 1: the world is extremely dangerous. When you ask your question
Speaker 1: in the beginning about you know, my interpretation or what
Speaker 1: the parable says to me, I've been interested for a
Speaker 1: while and I'm really kind of focused on that area
Speaker 1: now of understanding those unhelpful core beliefs and starting to
Speaker 1: shift them in ways that are actually effective. Again, not
Speaker 1: to overwrite the old ones, but to develop new, competing ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know my experience of trying to work
Speaker 2: with my thoughts. The first thing I know is that
Speaker 2: using some sort of structured approach is really helpful. It's
Speaker 2: very slippery inside here, right, and so some set of
Speaker 2: questions or you know, ways of working through it is
Speaker 2: very helpful. And the second thing that anybody that tries
Speaker 2: that will recognize is that some things, even though on
Speaker 2: some level you're like, well that's probably not exactly true,
Speaker 2: but good lord, does it feel like it is. And
Speaker 2: no matter what I tell myself, I can't shake that
Speaker 2: sense of like I'm a failure. Well what does that
Speaker 2: even mean? I mean, what does it to succeed, what
Speaker 2: does it to fail? Like all these ways of questioning
Speaker 2: it are good, and yet often they don't change. There's
Speaker 2: something else that's more persistent. And is that what you're
Speaker 2: saying is sort of these core beliefs they're even a
Speaker 2: layer two underthought that they're so assumed and so core
Speaker 2: that we don't even know how to question those.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think that's right. I mean, for some
Speaker 1: people it feels like the more surface level thoughts are
Speaker 1: also really hard to you know, it's that distinction you
Speaker 1: describe so well that like, I know on some level
Speaker 1: it's not true, but darn if it doesn't just feel
Speaker 1: exactly true.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's maybe one of the biggest challenges I
Speaker 1: think for CBT is what about those thoughts? Yeah, And
Speaker 1: you know, often through repetition or deeper exploration, maybe getting
Speaker 1: out the thought beneath the thought. Maybe the initial thought
Speaker 1: is just one level and there's something behind that, like
Speaker 1: like I'm afraid that I'm going to be late for work.
Speaker 1: I'm probably not gonna be late, won't be a big deal,
Speaker 1: But beneath that there's a meaning. What would it mean
Speaker 1: if you relate to work, Well, it would mean that
Speaker 1: I'm not a good employee, So you get to something
Speaker 1: that's actually driving the person's sense of like it's not
Speaker 1: going to be okay to be late. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: I think we do reach a point. I mean, whether
Speaker 1: just in our day to day lives or you know,
Speaker 1: often in therapy work I've done where we've worked through
Speaker 1: everything the person sees, yes, okay, I know it doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense. Yes, if a friend we're in exactly
Speaker 1: my position, I would tell them, you know what you're
Speaker 1: telling me, and I would think they should believe it.
Speaker 1: I can't believe it for myself. That I think that's
Speaker 1: where more of a mindfulness approach can be so helpful,
Speaker 1: is to see the thoughts in a more general way
Speaker 1: as not really signifying what we think they do. We
Speaker 1: don't have to necessarily wrangle with them anymore, you know,
Speaker 1: sanitize our thoughts yeah, and say like, yeah, that's my
Speaker 1: mind does all right, I'm going to move on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And this gets to a question I often talk
Speaker 2: to people about and try and get at a little
Speaker 2: bit more. And I don't think there's a clear answer,
Speaker 2: but it's kind of when to do which of those
Speaker 2: things right? Because they are similar but they're different.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: One is assuming our thoughts are more or less valid
Speaker 2: and we're going to try and change them into something
Speaker 2: that's more useful, and there's absolutely time and place for that,
Speaker 2: and as you said, there are times that those don't budge.
Speaker 2: So then you're into more of a mindfulness based approach
Speaker 2: or more of an acceptance of commitment therapy type approach,
Speaker 2: where one of the core ideas there is like some
Speaker 2: of those thoughts may just not go away, and they
Speaker 2: may just keep going. I love the analogy I think
Speaker 2: Steven C. Hayes uses about like they're like a radio
Speaker 2: station in my neighbor's apartment. Like I can't turn it off. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, it's not my radio. I can't turn it off.
Speaker 2: But I can focus on other things. Or I can
Speaker 2: be like, all right, I'm just gonna let it be there.
Speaker 2: I'm just not gonna make a big deal out of it.
Speaker 2: And it always seems to me that both those approaches
Speaker 2: seem like they have their time and place, and you know,
Speaker 2: for me, it's often a matter of as I'm dealing
Speaker 2: with my own emotions, right, or we're working with somebody,
Speaker 2: you know, a coaching client or whatever, and we're looking
Speaker 2: at it is like which of those approaches are going
Speaker 2: to be more useful when right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And there's no hard and fast rules you
Speaker 1: probably suspect, But as a rule of thumb, I think
Speaker 1: it's usually not best to kind of what's the expression.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like leapfrogging in a way like a bypass,
Speaker 1: like a spiritual bypass kind of thing, like Okay, well,
Speaker 1: I know I'm I'm supposed to get so I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna say that I'm there and all as well. Usually
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is it just comes back around
Speaker 1: because it hasn't been dealt with, hasn't really been acknowledged
Speaker 1: or addressed or worked through as much as it can be.
Speaker 1: And then over time, as we sort of see our patterns,
Speaker 1: and often a clue is that the thoughts maybe start
Speaker 1: to lose so much of their charge, you know, like
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like the neighbor's music is blaring. It
Speaker 1: feels more like it's still there. It's an annoyance. I
Speaker 1: could live my life with it. So I think that's
Speaker 1: when we can shift more to a kind of like,
Speaker 1: all right, these thoughts come and go, there they are again,
Speaker 1: yeap anyway, what am I doing. I'm just going to
Speaker 1: go back to what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: On one level, I think, like you said, not leapfrogging.
Speaker 2: So for me, what I've sort of realized and again
Speaker 2: that this isn't always true, but it's okay to start
Speaker 2: by agnowl edging the emotion that's tied with the thoughts
Speaker 2: instead of trying to get past that. Acknowledge the emotion
Speaker 2: and what's happening, because that tends to be my way
Speaker 2: is I'll just try and think my way out of it,
Speaker 2: and so, you know, acknowledge the emotion and then I
Speaker 2: think it's useful for me to try and you know,
Speaker 2: look at the thoughts and question them. The classic example
Speaker 2: that's used in a lot of Buddhist stories is you know,
Speaker 2: you walk outside and you think you see a snake,
Speaker 2: and you freak the f out, you know, and then
Speaker 2: you look a little bit closer in the moonlight, and
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, it's a coil of rope. Right in
Speaker 2: that exact moment, it's all over. And now our thoughts
Speaker 2: aren't usually that clean and easy, but it does point
Speaker 2: to if you can be like, oh, it's not what
Speaker 2: I thought it was at all the situation disappears. You know,
Speaker 2: for me, there's a point of like, can we do
Speaker 2: that level analysis to start, just so that I'm not
Speaker 2: spending time listening to the radio station in my neighbor's
Speaker 2: apartment when I could simply flip the switch and turn
Speaker 2: it off. Yeah, you know, but again, it's all so nuanced,
Speaker 2: and I think people are differ I think some people
Speaker 2: need a different approach at a different time, in a
Speaker 2: different way. But I do love CBT in its ability
Speaker 2: to give that process of questioning in my thoughts some
Speaker 2: degree of structure and direction. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the structure and direction I think really
Speaker 1: the added benefit that CBT added to things like you know,
Speaker 1: you read the stoics and it's basically CBT, but that structure,
Speaker 1: I think is such a useful addition. You know, a
Speaker 1: metaphor that I like is removing snow. So let's say
Speaker 1: you know you're snowed in, and let's say that's that
Speaker 1: represents unhelpful thoughts. One way to get rid of that
Speaker 1: problem is, you know, to go out with your hands
Speaker 1: and just start, you know, pushing the snow out of
Speaker 1: the way. I think of that as without any specific
Speaker 1: tools other than your hands. Having a snow shovel I
Speaker 1: think of like CBT much more effective. You have more leverage,
Speaker 1: it's less frustrating, and it can work really well. But
Speaker 1: I think that but ultimately, if we can, we can
Speaker 1: get to a point where we don't have to go
Speaker 1: through like, Okay, this thought, I'm working through it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's oh, this means that. Okay, here's an alternative again,
Speaker 1: which can be great, like a snowshovel, but there's something
Speaker 1: else which is just recognizing like, oh, it's all thoughts,
Speaker 1: and that I think of as like the spring snow,
Speaker 1: you know, and it just it thaws and that's it.
Speaker 1: You don't have to go through one by one and
Speaker 1: I'm shoveling myself out and it's just like, oh, that's it.
Speaker 2: That's a great analogy actually, And you know, it's been
Speaker 2: interesting to me when I've had some relatively profound spiritual
Speaker 2: experiences that has been what it's been like. It's been
Speaker 2: like the snow just all melted, right, you know, and
Speaker 2: there's no need to mess with it. But given that
Speaker 2: I can't always make the sun come out to the
Speaker 2: same degree of warmth, you know, sometimes I do need
Speaker 2: the snowshovel to kind of like all right, we got
Speaker 2: to get a little relief in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it makes me think of the shift metaphor,
Speaker 1: where was the wind isn't always blowing, So if you
Speaker 1: have a sailboat, it's also nice to have a motor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe the motor there is the CBT techniques. I have
Speaker 1: to say though, I just probably a couple of days ago,
Speaker 1: I had this experience and it was so it stood
Speaker 1: out so much because I could see both levels so clearly.
Speaker 1: I was stuck in the drama in my head around
Speaker 1: the story my mind was concocting about had to do
Speaker 1: with me and my wife and like what she was
Speaker 1: doing or like my relationship with her and the family,
Speaker 1: and you know, for a few moments it all just
Speaker 1: felt true, just like yeah, that's how it is. I
Speaker 1: need to work on that and change something. And then
Speaker 1: I had this momentere I was like, oh, oh wait
Speaker 1: a minute, so that's a story I'm telling. And then
Speaker 1: I saw just like the whole thing is story, Like
Speaker 1: I don't even have to go through and be like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe she's not actually doing that and maybe I'm doing
Speaker 1: this thing. I was just like, oh wait, a second.
Speaker 1: This is all a fabrication, Like I've constructed this narrative
Speaker 1: that feels like this is the way it's happening. I
Speaker 1: was like, or maybe not, none of that actually exists,
Speaker 1: and that felt like the spring sun. That was just like,
Speaker 1: oh oh freedom, thank god.
Speaker 2: So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder.
Speaker 2: Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action
Speaker 2: and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute
Speaker 2: to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a
Speaker 2: detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause
Speaker 2: and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and
Speaker 2: how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously,
Speaker 2: just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It
Speaker 2: can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop
Speaker 2: and be present, can't it. If you want to keep
Speaker 2: this momentum going that you built with this little exercise,
Speaker 2: i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders
Speaker 2: SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with
Speaker 2: insightful little prompts wisdom from podcast guests. They are a
Speaker 2: nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life,
Speaker 2: and they're a helpful way to not get lost in
Speaker 2: the busyness and forget what is important. You can join
Speaker 2: at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't
Speaker 2: like them, you can get off a list really easily.
Speaker 2: So far, there are over one and seventy two others
Speaker 2: from the one you feed community on the list, and
Speaker 2: we'd love to welcome you as well, so head on
Speaker 2: over to one you feed dot net slash sms and
Speaker 2: let's feed our good wolves together. As you were saying that,
Speaker 2: I was thinking, like, there's that freedom, and then there
Speaker 2: is you know, the actual situation itself, right, like there
Speaker 2: may be things with you and your wife that you
Speaker 2: need to talk about or work through, which is why
Speaker 2: I always sort of think of like thoughts, behaviors, actions,
Speaker 2: and then the situation itself actually matters, right, you know,
Speaker 2: certain spiritual traditions will say that you know, all of
Speaker 2: it is constructed and made up and that none of
Speaker 2: it's real and that everything is interpreting. And then there's
Speaker 2: you know, the more normal western side of things says
Speaker 2: like what's happening out there is what's most important, And
Speaker 2: the phrase I've always thought things like most helpful sort
Speaker 2: of like a co creation. Right, it's not one or
Speaker 2: the other. Right, they both are there. You know. Yes,
Speaker 2: on one level, I am making up all the meaning here,
Speaker 2: and on another level, there's actual real things that are happening,
Speaker 2: you know, that impact my well being in my life,
Speaker 2: my socioeconomic state, my race, my I mean, all kinds
Speaker 2: of things that are a co creation, which is sometimes
Speaker 2: where I feel like spiritual traditions, if they're not careful,
Speaker 2: become calloused, right, they become like, oh, it's just all
Speaker 2: your interpretation of it. It's just your interpretation, which seems
Speaker 2: kind of uncaring to the realities that people face in
Speaker 2: the world. And yet our realities aren't the only thing,
Speaker 2: you know, because we see people like Victor Frankel. So
Speaker 2: we all love Victor Frankel because you see, even in
Speaker 2: the midst of terrible conditions, he was able to have
Speaker 2: some degree of choosing his reaction. And you know, it's
Speaker 2: that co creation. And I think that's what you're speaking to.
Speaker 1: It is. Yes, I think that's brilliant because it is
Speaker 1: it is easy to fall on one side or the other.
Speaker 1: It's all material or it's all spiritual. And I like
Speaker 1: that you said uncaring and callous can become part of
Speaker 1: the spiritual approach, because I think it's important to call
Speaker 1: that out because certainly fell into this myself when I
Speaker 1: had this spiritual revelation. Then I was like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: all spiritual, and spiritual seemed like the ultimate goal, you know,
Speaker 1: to the exclusion of other types of things that are
Speaker 1: equally real and valid. And I don't remember exactly the story,
Speaker 1: but i'll paraphrase as best I can. You've probably heard it.
Speaker 1: There was a spiritual teacher who you know, talked to
Speaker 1: his students about how everything is illusion, and so this
Speaker 1: one student had really kind of internalized that belief. Okay,
Speaker 1: now I can see everything is illusion. So he's walking
Speaker 1: in the street one day and he sees the this
Speaker 1: elephant running down the street and he said, well, everything
Speaker 1: is illusion. So I'm going to stand in front of
Speaker 1: the elephant and I'll be fine because I can see,
Speaker 1: I've seen through, I've pierced the illusion. So he walks
Speaker 1: in the street and gets trampled by the elephant. So
Speaker 1: it goes back to you know, hobbles back to his
Speaker 1: teacher and he says, I thought you said everything was illusion,
Speaker 1: and his teacher said, yes, but I am also illusion,
Speaker 1: and what I told you is illusion. It's all illusion.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I do remember so clearly that sense I
Speaker 1: had of like, I just like, the more spiritual I
Speaker 1: can be, the more I can talk about spiritual things,
Speaker 1: the more kind of real it'll become. But I think
Speaker 1: it's just it ends up just being so thin.
Speaker 2: Yeah at that point, Yeah, as the least fun guy
Speaker 2: at a dinner party. Recently, I was at a dinner
Speaker 2: party where a couple people start talking about the law
Speaker 2: of attraction, and I just couldn't help myself. But I
Speaker 2: actually wanted to ask. They seemed like they were intelligent people,
Speaker 2: like I liked them, and I wanted to ask. I
Speaker 2: wanted to have this conversation because to me, I'm like,
Speaker 2: but if you follow the logic of that, that's kind
Speaker 2: of fucked up, isn't it. Like are the people in
Speaker 2: Gaza right now attracting that to themselves? You know, right
Speaker 2: now there's probably a child being well not probably, certainly
Speaker 2: absolutely a child being raped as we have this conversation,
Speaker 2: did they attract that? And then one person was like, well,
Speaker 2: it's not really attracting bad stuff, it's that you attract
Speaker 2: what you really want. I was like, are you telling
Speaker 2: me those people in Gaza aren't praying feverishly with a
Speaker 2: degree of prayer. You and I've never had that this
Speaker 2: go away, you know, So you know, that's that aspect
Speaker 2: of where I think it just gets callous if we're
Speaker 2: not really careful. And it's why I've always loved the tradition.
Speaker 2: I've been most invested in Zen because we talk about
Speaker 2: the relative and the absolute. I feel like I talk
Speaker 2: about this on like every third episode, but it's so
Speaker 2: fundamental to me because they say, like, you know, the
Speaker 2: relative is that it's all illusion. The absolute is I
Speaker 2: don't have money to buy food, or I have this
Speaker 2: chronic condition that makes me sick, you know, Like, and
Speaker 2: in Zen they say they're one and the same and
Speaker 2: they're also separate, and that holding both of those things
Speaker 2: and the ability to integrate them has become so fundamental
Speaker 2: to me. And having what seems like to me a
Speaker 2: mature spirituality, you know, a spirituality that takes into account
Speaker 2: the things of the world. It takes in compassion and kindness,
Speaker 2: and it also takes in a big view and it
Speaker 2: holds those tensions somehow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and holding tension seems to be so much about
Speaker 1: what what awakening or whatever we want to call it
Speaker 1: is about. Yeah, you know that middle way which seems
Speaker 1: like it's so easy to fall on one side or
Speaker 1: the other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're discussing lots of weighty questions here, which I
Speaker 2: always love. But I want to get to your method
Speaker 2: in your book because I think it's very simple and
Speaker 2: also very powerful. So it's called think act B. Talk
Speaker 2: to me a little bit about what those things mean
Speaker 2: and how that phrase can be useful to me.
Speaker 1: Great, Yeah, so think act BE. You know the three
Speaker 1: simple words that represent cognitive, behavioral and mindfulness parts of
Speaker 1: mindful CBT, so obviously think for cognitive, act for behavioral,
Speaker 1: B for mindfulness. And I like them because, well, they're
Speaker 1: simple for one thing, which seems to be counter to
Speaker 1: what we tend to do as psychologists, which make up
Speaker 1: big words for simple things. And also to me, it
Speaker 1: shows how that the three all hang together, and we
Speaker 1: really kind of need, I think, the three to act together,
Speaker 1: or at least we're most effective when our thoughts, are actions,
Speaker 1: and our sense of presence are all aligned. So I
Speaker 1: like it as a reminder. I have three kind of
Speaker 1: starting points here when I'm struggling and need some tools
Speaker 1: or different reaction, and we can start anywhere, but I
Speaker 1: often like to start with the mindful part with the bee.
Speaker 1: So let's say I'm This happens fairly often. I get
Speaker 1: to the end of the day and I'm, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe feeling exhausted, or I can feel you my body
Speaker 1: has taken on a lot of stress during the day,
Speaker 1: or I feel anxious. So I can, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: take a moment like oh, okay, b I can just
Speaker 1: take a second, you know, take a breath with awareness,
Speaker 1: check in with myself, and even that, you know, it
Speaker 1: can be a bit of a reset, like oh yeah,
Speaker 1: right here. My mind is so many places, but just
Speaker 1: that act of grounding in the moment just kind of
Speaker 1: gathers up all those things. It feels like I recollect myself,
Speaker 1: like I remember myself. I recollect myself right in the present,
Speaker 1: right here, And then I might address my thoughts like
Speaker 1: what stories am I telling myself? Well, one that often
Speaker 1: comes up is, you know, I have to get this
Speaker 1: done tonight, Like well do you I want to, yeah,
Speaker 1: but do you have to get it done? Well? No,
Speaker 1: What does it do to you to force yourself to
Speaker 1: get it done when you're just feeling spent. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess there's a pretty big cost there. You end up
Speaker 1: sobbing at the end of the night. It's funny, So
Speaker 1: that's a downside. And then crucially, you know, act what
Speaker 1: am I going to do about it?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: All right, so I have this insight, Yes, rest is
Speaker 1: what I need? What am I going to do? Well?
Speaker 1: I could push through and you know, finish editing this
Speaker 1: podcast episode or writing this blog post, or I could
Speaker 1: lie down the floor for a few minutes and just
Speaker 1: let everything release. I can choose to act in a
Speaker 1: way that embodies mindfulness. So being mindfuls you know, isn't
Speaker 1: just about thinking a certain way or having certain kind
Speaker 1: of different experiences of consciousness. But we can act in
Speaker 1: ways that are mindful and then that reinforced kind of
Speaker 1: what's happening for us emotionally and physically and spiritually.
Speaker 2: I love that idea of this think act be you
Speaker 2: say that they form the head, think, the hands, act
Speaker 2: and the heart be of the practices that are important.
Speaker 2: I love the idea, as you said, because you can
Speaker 2: enter on any of those levels, right, and a different
Speaker 2: level might make more sense certain times, right, Like I
Speaker 2: know for me there are times where it's the action
Speaker 2: that is like the only way forward for me.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: The classic example is exercising, Like, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: know why. I have no idea why it still sometimes
Speaker 2: feels hard to exercise, given how unequivocally good it always
Speaker 2: is for me, but sometimes I do, and thinking my
Speaker 2: way through it is often very difficult. I can't really
Speaker 2: be my way through it. I just have to like
Speaker 2: be like, go, go do it, you know, like the
Speaker 2: act is the way to be. You know. There are
Speaker 2: times where I can't think my way into it. I
Speaker 2: can be like, oh, yeah, well, you know, you really
Speaker 2: will feel better when you're done, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: so you're kind of doing all those different things, and
Speaker 2: I think of them as different levers to be able
Speaker 2: to pull right and you know, grab the lever that
Speaker 2: works in the situation. And that's why I love that idea.
Speaker 2: But I also love this is because you sort of say,
Speaker 2: let me, I want to find this. You say, conversely,
Speaker 2: we hamstring our own efforts when we ignore any of
Speaker 2: these three components. Thought without action is inert, action without
Speaker 2: thought is disorganized thought or action without presence is mindless.
Speaker 2: But when applied together, these three approaches are mutually reinforcing
Speaker 2: and offer the right tools for our work. And I
Speaker 2: love that idea that you can enter at any point.
Speaker 2: But the more you have all three of those together,
Speaker 2: the stronger your I guess approach to whatever it is
Speaker 2: is going to be.
Speaker 1: I think if it kind of like a braid, a
Speaker 1: quarter of three strands is strong, and you can have
Speaker 1: a thread. You know, you can wind two courts together,
Speaker 1: but three that you really get, Yeah, but not not
Speaker 1: just more is better. But to me, those three do
Speaker 1: encompass kind of are our full being, you know, they
Speaker 1: don't omit or kind of overprivilege any one part of ourselves. Say,
Speaker 1: all parts of you matter, like your your body matters.
Speaker 1: If you're trying to meditate and you're you know, in
Speaker 1: a physical state that gets in the way, for example,
Speaker 1: then you can't just say like, well, I'm just kind
Speaker 1: of the spiritual. I mean, you could, but it's probably gonna,
Speaker 1: like like the quote said, hamstring in certain ways.
Speaker 2: So I wonder if maybe we could just talk about
Speaker 2: each of them in turn briefly. And I'm just wondering
Speaker 2: if you could give us an idea or a tool
Speaker 2: for that one that might be helpful. So for think,
Speaker 2: Are there a couple cognitive questions that you really like
Speaker 2: that you've found useful for yourself for your patients that
Speaker 2: you know are quick clarifying cognitive tools.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one I like because it's really kind
Speaker 1: of a marriage of be and think in a way,
Speaker 1: or at least it definitely embodies a kind of mindful approach.
Speaker 1: Question that I love to ask myself is what is
Speaker 1: actually happening right now? What's actually happening right now? Because
Speaker 1: that can get under the story. You know, like, let's
Speaker 1: say somebody does something in traffic, and my mind creates
Speaker 1: this whole story about like, well they're trying to do
Speaker 1: this and stick it to me, and I'm gonna like,
Speaker 1: what's actually happening right now? Well, this person, you know,
Speaker 1: merged without using their turn signal or something like, oh okay,
Speaker 1: it's so much less than my mind created any prompt
Speaker 1: we can give ourselves like that. That just reminds us
Speaker 1: that our minds are creating things the great at creating
Speaker 1: thoughts and stories. That alone is so much of the work.
Speaker 1: You know, we might not even need to go through
Speaker 1: the whole kind of wrote thing of all this and
Speaker 1: this and evidence for and against even just like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a thought, all right, I have to take it
Speaker 1: so seriously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I reference this book a lot because it was
Speaker 2: really transformational for me, and it was crucial conversations. It's
Speaker 2: about having good conversations. But they talk about like when
Speaker 2: you're doing what you just said, like you have to
Speaker 2: describe it as if you were a video camera or
Speaker 2: as if you were an audio recorder like or as
Speaker 2: they used to say, the drag net. Just the facts, ma'am.
Speaker 2: You know, like just the facts that can be really
Speaker 2: really helpful. You're right sometimes that you know what is
Speaker 2: actually happening, can a clarify a situation like that? I
Speaker 2: find that a really useful b type of thing, right
Speaker 2: because my brain takes shortcut. All our brains take shortcuts, right, Like,
Speaker 2: my brain will be saying something about something that's going
Speaker 2: on in my body. When actually check in with what's
Speaker 2: going on in my body, I'm like, all right, brain,
Speaker 2: you are being way over dramatic here, right, Like you
Speaker 2: know my back is killing me. I'm like, well, all right,
Speaker 2: that's what my brain will say every little back twinge,
Speaker 2: my back is killing me. But when I actually stop
Speaker 2: and I feel the sensation, I'm like, what's actually happening? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've got some tightness in my left hip. It's certainly
Speaker 2: not killing me, right, you know. So I love that,
Speaker 2: you know, what's actually happening is a great question.
Speaker 1: You maybe think of another one that I love that
Speaker 1: idea of seeing things objectively, and it helps if we
Speaker 1: can take a bit of an outside perspective. So a
Speaker 1: question I like would be something like you could ask yourself,
Speaker 1: what is Eric thinking right now? Or what is Seth
Speaker 1: thinking right now? Right? So I'm kind of looking from
Speaker 1: the outside, like, what's the story?
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's move on to act. What's a thing
Speaker 2: or two that you want to say about action that
Speaker 2: you think would be useful?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, one big one again, I use it probably
Speaker 1: every day, is we often get hung up on tasks
Speaker 1: because they seem too difficult or they seem too hard
Speaker 1: in some way. But usually if something is too hard,
Speaker 1: it's just too big. So a primary tool in the
Speaker 1: behavioral approach is to break things down. It's so simple,
Speaker 1: you know. It's one of these obvious things, which I
Speaker 1: think is kind of cbt's specialty. You know, these kind
Speaker 1: of kind of simple, intuitive approaches. I use this for example,
Speaker 1: like with making dinner. So I was anticipating, partly based
Speaker 1: on my experience last night, but also just knowing myself
Speaker 1: that you know, after a really engaging interview, I'm probably
Speaker 1: going to be a bit tired. And so I did
Speaker 1: some dinner prep in the afternoon because I cooked dinner
Speaker 1: each night, So once it came time to cook dinner, like,
Speaker 1: what a nice gift, somebody already did some prep work
Speaker 1: for me. It's like having a sous chef, So breaking
Speaker 1: things down and then in general accountability, I think it's
Speaker 1: just hard to overestimate the value of that. So either
Speaker 1: telling someone we're going to do something, or maybe keeping
Speaker 1: a chart even for ourselves, you know, some self accountability,
Speaker 1: I can see like how many times have I done
Speaker 1: that thing I was planning to or you know, what's
Speaker 1: my progress toward a goal that I'm intending to make
Speaker 1: and maybe up For example, if I want to start
Speaker 1: running in the morning, I'm much more likely to be
Speaker 1: out the door early if I know someone's going to
Speaker 1: be waiting for me outside at six am, you versus like, yeah, whatever,
Speaker 1: it just me, maybe I'm more likely to sleep in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, these things are so obvious. I heard it somebody
Speaker 2: said it recently, like it's it's common sense, but it's
Speaker 2: not common practice, you know. And I've done behavioral coaching
Speaker 2: for years. I know you break a big task into
Speaker 2: smaller tasks, But how often do I have a task
Speaker 2: on my list that is like actually nine different tasks?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I wonder why that thing just sits
Speaker 2: on my to do list for two weeks? Oh duh,
Speaker 2: you know it's too big. But as you said earlier,
Speaker 2: blind spots, right, Like, we all have our blind spots often,
Speaker 2: you know. And so that's why it's just helpful to
Speaker 2: hear these things kind of again and again and be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: am I actually really doing that right now?
Speaker 1: I think there can sometimes be some shame around doing
Speaker 1: somebody that's so simple, Like come on, that's why do
Speaker 1: I have to do this baby thing? Why can't I
Speaker 1: just do the task? One of the biggest signs of
Speaker 1: being a grown up, I should say, is being willing
Speaker 1: to do simple things that make it easier to do
Speaker 1: what you need to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of turn it into a joke, so
Speaker 2: I thought, I don't have shame about it. But I
Speaker 2: am always amazed by like how often do I have
Speaker 2: to just convince myself to go, like I've got a peloton, here,
Speaker 2: go put on your bike's shoes, Like that's all I'm
Speaker 2: able to do. Like how often do I have to
Speaker 2: do that? Well, apparently pretty damn often. Or the guitar
Speaker 2: on the stand versus in the case. Again, I joke
Speaker 2: about it, so that doesn't erode my sense of being
Speaker 2: a reasonable human being that the guitar sitting on a
Speaker 2: stand I will play versus sitting in a case I won't.
Speaker 2: I mean, it takes two seconds to open a guitar case. Again,
Speaker 2: I could just kind of make a joke out of it.
Speaker 2: But we're just humans, you know. Those things all work,
Speaker 2: and we hear them all the time because they just
Speaker 2: happen to be really true and most of us need
Speaker 2: them a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: I think we tend to overestimate the power of our
Speaker 1: will to just push through things because we'll think, I,
Speaker 1: just I should be able to just take the guitar
Speaker 1: out of the case. I mean, come on, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous that I have to put it on a
Speaker 1: stand or hang it up so I'll play it. But
Speaker 1: I think we underestimate how much our actions are driven
Speaker 1: by these kind of non cognitive behavioral associations that we
Speaker 1: have patterns of reward or punishment that we're not aware of,
Speaker 1: but that are shaping our actions, shaping our lives really
Speaker 1: in powerful ways. And so we can set our environments
Speaker 1: up in a way that make it easier to succeed.
Speaker 1: That's often so much more powerful than just thinking like Okay,
Speaker 1: I have to come up with a mental trick or
Speaker 1: convince myself to do it, or make some grand promise
Speaker 1: or goal, and that's going to push me through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've just come to believe eliminate every possible point
Speaker 2: of friction between you and the thing you want to do.
Speaker 2: I mean, just relentlessly look at what are the points
Speaker 2: of friction and how can I get rid of them?
Speaker 2: Because they all have the capacity to stop us, particularly
Speaker 2: if we're not feeling motivated. Right, So okay, let's move
Speaker 2: on to be And I just want to read something
Speaker 2: you write about it before I ask you for a
Speaker 2: tool or an idea there, And I love this line
Speaker 2: you say. Common portrayals of mindfulness can also make it
Speaker 2: seem very nice and peaceful and contained. We know our
Speaker 2: lives look nothing like those mindfulness magazine covers. In contrast,
Speaker 2: the actual experience of open hearted presence is anything but
Speaker 2: tame and predictable. It might be relaxing and peaceful at times,
Speaker 2: but real mindful awareness can also be raw and wild
Speaker 2: and unbounded. Yeah, say a little bit more about that,
Speaker 2: because I do think that mindfulness has become a cliche.
Speaker 2: It's become an overused term. Many people have a negative
Speaker 2: association with it because of those mindfulness covers. Say a
Speaker 2: little bit more about mindfulness and kind of what it
Speaker 2: means to you and what it doesn't mean.
Speaker 1: I have to come clean, Eric. There was a time,
Speaker 1: many years ago, I guess this is this is a
Speaker 1: story about me in the past. I still find it
Speaker 1: in haarrassing. I was setting up my clinical practice, my
Speaker 1: own private practice for the first time, and I just
Speaker 1: had this thought. I was planning to include, you know,
Speaker 1: some mindfulness practice in it, and I realized, like, it's
Speaker 1: so silly. I have a shaved head and I'll be
Speaker 1: teaching mindfulness, and I thought like, maybe people will kind
Speaker 1: of think that I'm a guru or something. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just it's like I think I actually blushed a
Speaker 1: little just now just saying it because it's just you know,
Speaker 1: it just seems so ridiculous. But people tend to experience
Speaker 1: me as someone who's like, you know, kind of calm. Oh,
Speaker 1: you had to be great. You know, it'll be like
Speaker 1: like a thing. But I think it's easy to fall
Speaker 1: into that idea of like, oh yeah, mindfulness is this
Speaker 1: thing that involves you know, talking in a certain way
Speaker 1: and a certain energy, and all those things can be fine.
Speaker 1: But where I am now, if my understanding is that
Speaker 1: we can call it mindfulness or whatever, like awareness or
Speaker 1: living fully, it's not about shutting out certain types of experiences,
Speaker 1: allowed to have this certain narrow band of quote unquote
Speaker 1: mindful experiences, but it's about opening to all of it.
Speaker 1: Steve Hayes has said, like, now you want to feel
Speaker 1: all of it? Yes, So from that perspective, a thing
Speaker 1: that I'll often use in my practice or for myself
Speaker 1: is when I find myself shutting down, you know, like
Speaker 1: I'm pushing away certain experiences, or you know, someone comes
Speaker 1: to me with something really stressful and I'm feeling myself
Speaker 1: like tighten up, like I don't want to deal with
Speaker 1: this now, or it's too much, or I'm being overwhelmed
Speaker 1: by my own emotions, I'll ask myself, can I open
Speaker 1: to this? Just a simple question? Can I open to this?
Speaker 1: It's not a command, you know, it's not making a
Speaker 1: heavy demand on myself, but it's just inviting myself like
Speaker 1: there's another option here? Can I open to this? Even
Speaker 1: if it's anger or you know, a fight or whatever.
Speaker 2: So listener and thinking about all that and the other
Speaker 2: great wisdom from today's episode. If you were going to
Speaker 2: isolate just one, one top insight that you're taking away,
Speaker 2: what would it be? Not your top ten, not the
Speaker 2: top five? Just one? What is it? Think about it?
Speaker 2: Got it?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: I ask you, what's one tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little
Speaker 2: thing you can do today to put it in practice?
Speaker 2: Or maybe just take a baby step towards it. Remember,
Speaker 2: little by little, a little becomes a lot. Profound change
Speaker 2: happens as a result of aggregated tiny actions, not massive
Speaker 2: heroic effort. If you're not already on our Good Wolf
Speaker 2: Reminder SMS list, I'd highly recommend it as a tool
Speaker 2: you can leverage to remind you to take those vital
Speaker 2: baby steps forward. You can get on there at oneufeed
Speaker 2: dot net slash sms. It's totally free, and once you're
Speaker 2: on there, I'll send you a couple text messages a
Speaker 2: week with little reminders and nudges. Here's what I recently
Speaker 2: shared to give you an idea of the type of
Speaker 2: stuff I send. Keep practicing even if it seems hopeless.
Speaker 2: Don't strive for perfection, aim for consistency, and no matter what,
Speaker 2: keep showing up for yourself. That was a great gem
Speaker 2: from recent guests Light Watkins. And if you're on the
Speaker 2: fence about joining, remember it's totally free and easy to unsubscribe.
Speaker 2: If you want to get in, I'd love to have
Speaker 2: you there. Just go to one you feed dot net,
Speaker 2: slash SMS, all right back to it. You had the
Speaker 2: basic idea, shaved head talking calmly, Guru. You missed an
Speaker 2: important thing, and Audi Ashanti taught me this, Which was
Speaker 2: he said when he changed his name from Steven whatever
Speaker 2: I don't remember his last name to Audi Ashanti. Was
Speaker 2: like my number of students grew overnight. So you just
Speaker 2: missed the name. You know, you do have it all,
Speaker 2: I can see it. You just need that name. One
Speaker 2: last idea I'd like to kind of talk about here
Speaker 2: is embracing uncertainty. You say one of the biggest blockstore
Speaker 2: happiness is our relationship with uncertainty. We just don't like it.
Speaker 2: So what are some ways you've found to live with
Speaker 2: uncertainty in a better way? Because it is profoundly disconcerting.
Speaker 2: It seems like we can handle lots of things better
Speaker 2: than uncertainty, right, and yet life is fundamentally uncertain, so
Speaker 2: we all have to deal with it to a greater
Speaker 2: or lesser degree.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: An example that comes to mind for me is I
Speaker 1: had this several years ago, awful experience happened. I was
Speaker 1: teaching at a university and something quite awful had happened
Speaker 1: with one of the patients who was going there that
Speaker 1: I had seen. And afterwards, you I felt awful about
Speaker 1: what had happened, and then I had this fear of
Speaker 1: like is something bad going to happen to me?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Am I going to get in trouble because of that
Speaker 1: didn't seem to be because of anything that I had done,
Speaker 1: but there was that fear, and so my mind was
Speaker 1: just going over and over that, like what's going to happen?
Speaker 1: Is it going to be bad? Or what if? Trying
Speaker 1: to work it all out, like the mind tries to
Speaker 1: do you know, tries to like live life in advance,
Speaker 1: prevent bad things from happening before they do. And then
Speaker 1: I had this moment it just you know, came to
Speaker 1: me like these moments of awareness often do, where I
Speaker 1: was just like, I can't solve that, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's fear in that, but also is such a relief
Speaker 1: to realize on a deeper level like I cannot solve that.
Speaker 1: It's like realizing like I can't make you believe me
Speaker 1: or something. Then realizing like, no, I can't make you
Speaker 1: believe me, like I really can't. It's not my responsibility
Speaker 1: to That's sort of the challenge, but also the antidote
Speaker 1: when we get stuck in that sense of oh no, oh, no,
Speaker 1: oh shit, and maybe move to a kind of eventually
Speaker 1: this is glossing over a lot, but it kind of
Speaker 1: oh well, or kind of okay, all right. Like I
Speaker 1: said to myself in that, I was in my dining
Speaker 1: room at the time. It's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: thinking to myself standing there, and then I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: something bad might happen. I might get in trouble for this,
Speaker 1: and realizing that just I could accept that possibility was
Speaker 1: again so freeing. I don't have to fight that fight
Speaker 1: because you can't win. You can't beat uncertainty.
Speaker 2: I love that it makes me think of a slightly
Speaker 2: different situation in my life. But for a long time,
Speaker 2: my partner Ginia and I were going back and forth
Speaker 2: from Columbus to Atlanta. Her mom was in Atlanta and
Speaker 2: had Alzheimer's and my mom was in Columbus and had
Speaker 2: a variety of other things that needed some degree of care.
Speaker 2: And there was this constant like, when I'm in Columbus,
Speaker 2: Jenny's mom is unhappy, and when I'm in Atlanta, my
Speaker 2: mom is unhappy. And then I just had this moment
Speaker 2: where I was like, I can't make them both happy.
Speaker 2: It's impossible. It's impossible. The very nature of the problem
Speaker 2: is not solvable. Yes, that gave me a degree of
Speaker 2: relief right where I just went, oh, okay, there's nothing
Speaker 2: I'm going to do that's going to fix this, right.
Speaker 2: And it's similar to what you're saying, like when you
Speaker 2: really recognize I can't solve this, I can't know the
Speaker 2: answer to something that is yet to unfold, right, there
Speaker 2: is a real freedom in that when you can truly
Speaker 2: like get it on a deep level. Now it's easier
Speaker 2: with what I was talking about. And it's not to
Speaker 2: say that I didn't worry about it ever again, because
Speaker 2: of course I did. You know, as should we be
Speaker 2: two weeks here and two weeks there, three weeks here,
Speaker 2: one week there. Of course we had to, you know,
Speaker 2: still deal with it. But I recognize that fundamental tension
Speaker 2: was never going to way.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, that's such a challenging situation even with one parent,
Speaker 1: much less both sides of the family. But I can
Speaker 1: feel that shift that you went through between I can't
Speaker 1: make my partner's side and my mom happy at the
Speaker 1: same time, to an acceptance of that, Oh, now I
Speaker 1: get it. I can't. I can't make them both happy,
Speaker 1: and you got to let yourself off the hook.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of like sometimes when you realize you
Speaker 2: just can't do something, like it's impossible, it's easy to
Speaker 2: let go of that to some degree. Right, It's that
Speaker 2: belief that somehow we are going to figure it out,
Speaker 2: or if we just think about it a little bit longer,
Speaker 2: if we worry about it a little bit longer, there
Speaker 2: is a freedom in just being like, well, I can't solve.
Speaker 1: This, that's right. I can't solve tomorrow.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great place to wrap up on
Speaker 2: that line, because that is a profound line I can't
Speaker 2: solve tomorrow. Seth, thank you so much. You and I
Speaker 2: are going to continue in the post show conversation about
Speaker 2: this idea you have of outsourcing happiness and I love
Speaker 2: this concept. I'm excited to dive into why again this
Speaker 2: is a fundamental problem we can't solve. Listeners, If you'd
Speaker 2: like access to this conversation with Seth, we're about to
Speaker 2: have as well as ad free episodes, an episode I
Speaker 2: do call teaching song and a poem and the pleasure
Speaker 2: that would come from supporting a podcast that deeply needs
Speaker 2: your support. You can go to one you feed dot
Speaker 2: net slash join again. Seth, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: This is really enjoyable, Eric, Thanks for a great discussion.
Speaker 3: Yes, if what you just heard was helpful to you,
Speaker 3: please consider making a monthly donation to support the One
Speaker 3: you Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with
Speaker 3: this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits.
Speaker 3: It's our way of saying thank you for your support.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: We are so great for the members of our community.
Speaker 3: We wouldn't be able to do what we do without
Speaker 3: their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted.
Speaker 3: To learn more, make a donation at any level and
Speaker 3: become a member of the one You Feed community, go
Speaker 3: to oneyufeed dot net slash Join The One You Feed
Speaker 3: podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting
Speaker 3: the show.