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Speaker 1: Today's episode of Daily Variety is presented by City National Bank,

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Speaker 1: proud sponsor of Power of Law, where the entertainment industry's

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Speaker 1: most influential deal makers take center stage. City National Bank

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Speaker 1: provides specialized financial solutions for entertainment lawyers and firms so

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Speaker 1: you can navigate complex deals with confidence. Learn more at

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Speaker 1: CNB dot com slash Entertainment. City National is a subsidiary

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Speaker 1: of Royal Bank of Canada member FDIC.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Daily Variety, your daily dose of news and

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Speaker 2: analysis for entertainment industry insiders. It's Wednesday, April eighth, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six. I'm your host, Cynthia Littleton. I am co

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Speaker 2: editor in chief of Variety alongside Ramin Studa. I'm in LA.

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Speaker 2: He's in New York and Bridy has reporters around the

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Speaker 2: world covering the business of entertainment. On today's episode, In

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Speaker 2: our cover story segment, Variety's Michael Schneider details his reporting

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Speaker 2: and the incredible access he received to cover the fifth

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Speaker 2: and final season of HBO Max's beloved comedy Hacks and

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Speaker 2: its Power of Law day Woo Hoo. Variety Today publishes

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Speaker 2: in print and online our annual Power of Law issue,

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Speaker 2: It includes the Legal Impact Report, featuring top legal leagles

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Speaker 2: who are leading the charge in entertainment in media law.

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Speaker 2: Cindy Lynn, executive director of UCLA's ZIFFERENT Institute for Media, Entertainment,

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Speaker 2: Technology and Sports, joins us to discuss the big developments

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Speaker 2: for barristers over the past year. But before we get

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Speaker 2: to all that, here are a few headlines just in

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Speaker 2: this morning that you need to know. Save these dates.

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Speaker 2: The Motion Picture Academy has set the dates for the

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Speaker 2: next two OSCAR ceremonies. Then ninety ninth Oscars will be

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Speaker 2: held Sunday, March fourteenth to twenty seven. The one hundredth

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Speaker 2: annual gathering is set for March fifth, twenty twenty eight. Oobi,

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Speaker 2: the indie streamer and film distribution company, has struck a

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Speaker 2: deal with investment fund manager ipr VC to bankroll a

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Speaker 2: slate of prestigious European autor driven films. My colleague Elsa

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Speaker 2: Keslassi has the scoop. All of these stories and so

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Speaker 2: much more can be found on Variety dot com Right

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Speaker 2: now and now it's time for conversations with ridy journalists

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Speaker 2: about news and trends in show business. Michael Schneider Vridy's

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Speaker 2: television editor was given rare access to chronicle the fifth

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Speaker 2: and final season of Hacks. He was there for the

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Speaker 2: final day of shooting in the United States. It's been

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Speaker 2: quite a ride for Debra Vance and company. Michael Schneider,

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Speaker 2: my goodness, you have delivered us a cover story, really,

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Speaker 2: really quite a portrait of Hacks, not just in season five,

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Speaker 2: but the whole journey of this incredible show that defied

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Speaker 2: the odds. Mike, you had in credible access to cover

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Speaker 2: season five. Tell us some of the memories the experiences

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Speaker 2: that stand out to you from your very very exclusive

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Speaker 2: perch behind the scenes talking to the key creators and

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Speaker 2: the stars.

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Speaker 1: Well, the most exciting part, of course, is that I

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Speaker 1: got to fly actually to Vegas and witness in person

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Speaker 1: the final day of shooting in America for the show.

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Speaker 1: So it was quite a treat to be there and

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Speaker 1: to feel a part of that family in standing and

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Speaker 1: talking to Gene Smart and Hannah Einbeiner and the rest

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Speaker 1: of the cast and producers and share in sort of

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Speaker 1: the melancholy feeling that they had as they were winding

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Speaker 1: down and shooting some of their last scenes.

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Speaker 2: You always learn so much when you observe people in

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Speaker 2: those situations where they're waiting to do a scene. What

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff did you observe about the body language,

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Speaker 2: how the cast and crew, how they all related to

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Speaker 2: each other.

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Speaker 1: It felt like the producers knew these were the exact

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Speaker 1: scenes to do on the final day. They must have

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Speaker 1: switched around schedules to make sure that everyone was in

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Speaker 1: scenes together. Some of the final scenes I got to

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Speaker 1: witness they were just having a ball, sharing these last

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Speaker 1: moments together, laughing together and also tearing up together as

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Speaker 1: one by one the producer said, that's a series rap

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Speaker 1: on this character, or this is a US series rap

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Speaker 1: on other characters.

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Speaker 2: Gene Smart, what kind of things was she reflecting on it?

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Speaker 1: She was feeling very nostalgic thinking about the last long

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Speaker 1: running show that she was a part of, which of course,

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Speaker 1: was Designing Women. But she was at a very different

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Speaker 1: point of her life at that point. She had just

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Speaker 1: gotten married when she did Designing Women. She was just

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Speaker 1: starting to have kids, so she wasn't as zeroed in

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Speaker 1: necessarily on the day to day of working on a show.

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Speaker 1: And that also was a multi camera comedy where you're

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Speaker 1: not spending as much time with the crew with Hacks,

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Speaker 1: though it was very different. She was working living with

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Speaker 1: these folks day in and day out, and of course,

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Speaker 1: as I go into detail my story, there was so

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Speaker 1: much going on personally with both her and with the

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Speaker 1: show and with Los Angeles, all sort of leading to

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Speaker 1: this group of people bonding like few productions you've seen

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Speaker 1: because they've gone through so much together, and so I

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Speaker 1: think this is something that will really stand the test

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Speaker 1: of time for everyone involved with this show.

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Speaker 2: Debra Vance is such a TV character for the age

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Speaker 2: is even just a character name now embodies so much

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Speaker 2: about people Now. On the other end of the spectrum,

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Speaker 2: you had Hannah Einbinder, who had very little on camera

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Speaker 2: experience before Hacks, and she has not only has her

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Speaker 2: profile as an actor grown, but she tells you and

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Speaker 2: very candidly, just about how much she has grown as

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Speaker 2: a person during the course of this series.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things she points out is when

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Speaker 1: she started this show, she was just twenty four and

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Speaker 1: now she's hovering around thirty. So she feels like she

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Speaker 1: really did grow up, come of age working on this show,

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Speaker 1: and it gave her a whole new perspective on what

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Speaker 1: she wanted to do for a living. She was convinced

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Speaker 1: that she was really just going to be a stand up.

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Speaker 1: She really wasn't thinking at all about acting. But this,

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Speaker 1: this role came along, a role of a lifetime to

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Speaker 1: some degree, and it really gave her a whole new

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Speaker 1: career and a whole new perspective on what she wanted

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Speaker 1: to do with her life and who she is as

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Speaker 1: a person.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: By the way, it's also given her just more strength.

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Speaker 1: Being in spotlight is hard to begin with when you're

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Speaker 1: someone that young, but she's never been afraid to speak

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Speaker 1: her truth and that's caused a lot of folks to

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Speaker 1: really hammer against her, and she's gotten plenty of criticism

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Speaker 1: online and she's had to deal with that, but she's

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Speaker 1: still really upbeat and really just isn't willing to back

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Speaker 1: back down and has real strength of character, probably even

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Speaker 1: more so, and I think being in the limelight through

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Speaker 1: Hacks really gave her that really developed that strong personality

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Speaker 1: that she has.

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Speaker 2: The three secret weapons behind Hacks, of course, are it's

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Speaker 2: three creators, Luccia n Elo, Anni Ello, Anni yellow Any,

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Speaker 2: Paul w Downs, who also plays Jim Me a key role,

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Speaker 2: and Jen Statsky. This trio has been steadfast and they

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Speaker 2: have all been on the show the whole run. Oftentimes,

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Speaker 2: you know producers will leave, but they have so clearly

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Speaker 2: loved this. It's their baby, and Paul and Luccia literally

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Speaker 2: had a baby during the run of the show. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: Paul and Lucier are a couple, so there's that bond there,

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Speaker 2: but the friendship between them, the way they just so

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Speaker 2: protect the show. It's an interesting arrangement of executive producers,

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Speaker 2: show runner, director. They're all multi hyphenates. What having covered

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Speaker 2: them for a long time, now, what do you think

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Speaker 2: about that factor? What has that trio and their disparate

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Speaker 2: skills brought to Hacks.

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Speaker 1: It really it starts with them. This was their passion

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Speaker 1: project for years and a show that they really had

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Speaker 1: an idea from the beginning what they wanted this to be.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they all have their own strengths. They're

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Speaker 1: all excellent writers, obviously, but Luccia really led the pack

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Speaker 1: as the director. She's won DJ Awards for this. Paul,

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Speaker 1: of course on camera and Jen came from the world

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Speaker 1: of Late Night and so that played a big part

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Speaker 1: of last season when they parodied Late Night, and she

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Speaker 1: has that strong writing background from that world. So you

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Speaker 1: put them all together, and they all had their own

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Speaker 1: strengths that came together and built this really remarkable show.

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Speaker 1: That the attention to detail on Hacks comes from a

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Speaker 1: place of just passion wanting to do the best job possible,

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Speaker 1: and you can see it in the work in the

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Speaker 1: production down to even the graphic design on the show,

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Speaker 1: the production design, everything that they really spend time thinking about,

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Speaker 1: hashing about making sure it's the best possible of it all.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Variety has had sort of a special relationship

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Speaker 2: with Hacks over the years. In season three, Variety's Mark Malcolm,

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Speaker 2: who everybody knows from the Red Carpet, he did a

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Speaker 2: cameo in season three of Hacks. And then in season four,

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Speaker 2: you and Kate Arthur, Variety's managing editor, did more than

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Speaker 2: a cameo. You were in a press conference scene. I

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Speaker 2: know these things happen organically, but what was the spark

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Speaker 2: that created this great relationship between Variety and Hacks.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a mutual respect and also just a

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Speaker 1: love for storytelling, a love for this industry, and so

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Speaker 1: in a weird way, it made sense they wanted the

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Speaker 1: most authentic press conference possible for the announcement that Debora

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Speaker 1: Vance was starting her own talk show, So why not

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Speaker 1: have real journalists interview Debor Vance? Same with on the

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Speaker 1: Red Carpet? Why not have real red carpet journalists there,

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Speaker 1: which is why Mark Malkolm was there. So again it

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Speaker 1: goes back to that attention to detail.

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Speaker 2: Mike, let me close by asking you, of course, no spoilers,

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Speaker 2: what can you tell us about season five, which, as

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Speaker 2: I understand, you've seen most if not all, of last season.

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Speaker 1: Things got probably their darkest between Deborah and Ava, and

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Speaker 1: we've seen that redemption story already begin. They're in a

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Speaker 1: much different place now, the two of them, and I

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Speaker 1: think you'll see the show and on some of the

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Speaker 1: funny moments of the entire series, by the way, happened

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Speaker 1: this season, but also some of the probably most poignant moments.

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Speaker 1: And all I gotta say is, grab those tissues. Grab

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Speaker 1: those tissues.

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Speaker 2: I have no doubt we'll be talking more about it. Mike.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for working hard. You spent months on and

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Speaker 2: off working on this story, and you really brought it home.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Cynthia, And now we turn to Cindy Lynn, Executive

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Speaker 2: director of UCLA Laws Zifferent Institute, for Media, Entertainment, Technology,

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Speaker 2: and Sports. On tomorrow's episode, we'll have highlights from our

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Speaker 2: Power of Law Breakfast event being held this morning in

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Speaker 2: West Hollywood. To set the table, Lynn joins me to

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Speaker 2: discuss ai changing rules around name, image and likeness and

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Speaker 2: other cutting edge issues for lawyers. Cindy Lynn, Executive director

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Speaker 2: of the ZIFFERENT Institute for Media, Entertainmentnology, and Sports, Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: This is so exciting. Well, it seemed like a great

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Speaker 2: fit because Variety is celebrating our annual Power of Law

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Speaker 2: issue that is published today in print and online. We

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Speaker 2: are gathering with a few hundred of our favorite lawyers

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Speaker 2: at our annual Power of Law Breakfast. We look forward

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Speaker 2: to this issue this time of year. We get to

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Speaker 2: touch base with the absolute top legal eagles in our profession,

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Speaker 2: and we get to talk to people about what are

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Speaker 2: the issues, what are the areas of pressure of conflict?

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Speaker 2: Where do we need legal light shined on issues? Where

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Speaker 2: are new opportunities coming? And I know that these are

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Speaker 2: exactly the kind of themes that you at UCLA Law

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Speaker 2: and at the Different Institute think about and study and

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Speaker 2: debate all day long. You are very much at the

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Speaker 2: front lines of the young minds that are coming into

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Speaker 2: the legal profession. The entertainment industry is going through a

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Speaker 2: period of great transition and people need lawyers. How are

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Speaker 2: your courses and programs supporting students in the education they

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Speaker 2: need to tackle, but the cutting edge issues that they're

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Speaker 2: going to experience as they go into the field. This is,

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Speaker 2: of course what we pride our program on. Obviously, our

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Speaker 2: courses provide a mix of foundational doctrinal issues, you know,

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Speaker 2: highp law, corporate law, labor law, cracks. But more excitingly,

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Speaker 2: our curriculum provides a lot of specialized electives. And our

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Speaker 2: specialized electives are taught by industry leaders who are currently

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Speaker 2: still in practice, So a lot of the power lawyers

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Speaker 2: that you feature in your publication from year to year,

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Speaker 2: and so the content of each course will change as

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Speaker 2: the industry changes. So I was thinking of a few examples,

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Speaker 2: and I'll start with a class we have called Entertainment Guilts.

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Speaker 2: So this class is actually taught by Russell Wettinson, who's

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Speaker 2: the head of Entertainment and Broadcast Labor Relations at NBCU.

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Speaker 2: And in this class, students read and learn about the

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Speaker 2: latest versions of agreements with all the guilds, so the WGA,

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Speaker 2: the DGA, sag AFTRA, and depending on when they take

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Speaker 2: the class, any of these guilds could be a negotiation

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Speaker 2: or on strike. And in the last few years, the

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Speaker 2: instructor has highlighted, for example, AI as one specific issue

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Speaker 2: to discuss even in two full class courses. That's something

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Speaker 2: that never happened until now. It's such a gigantic topic.

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Speaker 2: How have you gone about tackling it in a way

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Speaker 2: that can be studied in kind of digestible portions.

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Speaker 3: I think curricularly we were thinking do we offer an

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Speaker 3: AI class, you know, is that one way about it?

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Speaker 3: Or do we instead inject AI or acknowledge AI in

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Speaker 3: every topic that we teach, And the current method is

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Speaker 3: the latter, So you know, I gave the example of

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Speaker 3: the Entertainment Guilds class. Another example, I was recently talking

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Speaker 3: to my colleague Dale Cohen. He teaches a news media

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Speaker 3: law class and he's also he's both the director of

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Speaker 3: our documentary film Legal Clinic, which is also really special,

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Speaker 3: and also he's senior special counsel at Frontline. Ken Different

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Speaker 3: himself teaches two seminars.

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Speaker 1: He teaches a.

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Speaker 3: Class called svod Avod Special Issues, and in that class

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Speaker 3: he sort of walks through the seven major streamers, talks

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Speaker 3: about their business models, hotly debated issues like transparency, how

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Speaker 3: each company calculates their profits and losses. I mean, this

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Speaker 3: class changes every single minute, So if we were to

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Speaker 3: teach it in the fall and the spring, it would change.

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Speaker 3: But this year, of course, again AI is coming up

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Speaker 3: as a big topic. You know, every streamer has a

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Speaker 3: different relationship with AI and that will obviously affect the

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Speaker 3: way that they look at their business. And so the

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Speaker 3: students get to sit here and think about these issues

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Speaker 3: in real time in the context of the different subject

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Speaker 3: of classes that we offer. You're so frontline with the

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Speaker 3: students coming in every year. Are you seeing just attitudes

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Speaker 3: toward AI itself? Are they changing as you see successive

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Speaker 3: waves of students coming into the law Are people Do

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Speaker 3: people attitudes about it changing? I think so? I mean

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Speaker 3: my attitude has changed, you know. I think I started

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Speaker 3: from being a little cautious to and still cautious, but

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Speaker 3: in a moment, probably this academic year, where I thought

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Speaker 3: I need to use these tools and really understand how

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Speaker 3: they work, or else I'm not a part of the

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Speaker 3: conversation with the students. They're younger, and they're just quick

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Speaker 3: to adopt and welcome new technologies in a way that

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Speaker 3: I think the faculty may not be put a generational

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Speaker 3: stamp on that, and so I think a lot of

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Speaker 3: the students are really open to it. I think they're

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Speaker 3: open to using it in their classes, in research, in

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Speaker 3: thinking about how AI can affect the various pieces of

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Speaker 3: the entertainment industry that we talked about, right content creation,

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Speaker 3: the distribution of content, post production. I think they're more

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Speaker 3: open to it, and they seem less fearful and interested

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Speaker 3: in just working with it and seeing how it could

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Speaker 3: be incorporated into the space.

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Speaker 2: I think just that different perspective, or that changing perspective,

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Speaker 2: is going to have an impact on how legal arguments

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Speaker 2: are framed and conceived. It's interesting to see how those

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Speaker 2: attitudes are evolving as the technology becomes more functional and

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Speaker 2: more at our fingertips at.

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Speaker 3: Now more than ever, we have to address it. It's

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Speaker 3: hard to ignore and it's exciting. It changes so fast.

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Speaker 3: One practical example that is both ever changing but also

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Speaker 3: not changing that much is a clinic that we had

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Speaker 3: from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty five, we had

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Speaker 3: a name, Image and Likeness Clinic that we developed with

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Speaker 3: our athletics department. It was really exciting, like we had

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Speaker 3: the student athletes as clients. We trained law students to

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Speaker 3: give them advice and counsel about their endorsement and sponsorship deals.

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Speaker 3: And on the one hand, that seems really daunting because

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Speaker 3: the NIL landscape is the wild West and it just

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Speaker 3: keeps changing and changing and changing.

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Speaker 2: And very timely. Given the change and the opportunities that

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Speaker 2: have just absolutely opened up for athletes, that's a really

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Speaker 2: great idea. Cindy, the Ziffrin Institute every year I have

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Speaker 2: been in attendee hosts a really fantastic UCL Entertainment Symposium

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Speaker 2: that breaks down a lot of these issues and talks

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Speaker 2: about what where the heat and the real cutting edge

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Speaker 2: issues are in entertainment law. And you are coming up

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Speaker 2: on your fiftieth annual event, So excited. What do you

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Speaker 2: think some of the themes? What do you think people

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Speaker 2: are going to be talking about it this year's symposium?

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Speaker 3: So because it's the fiftieth year, I think this year

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Speaker 3: we're really going to focus on the idea of legacy

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Speaker 3: and change, you know, and this year, we will probably

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Speaker 3: focus on the content creation side, and with respect to AI,

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Speaker 3: we also think we're going to focus a bit on

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Speaker 3: alternative distribution models and different audience strategies.

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Speaker 1: Do have an.

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Speaker 3: Announcement for everybody. I'll announce it on this podcast. Tom Wolseyan,

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Speaker 3: who has previously joined us, is going to make a

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Speaker 3: return just for our special fiftieth anniversary. So he's going

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Speaker 3: to do his classic industry overview and probably tell all

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Speaker 3: of us what he got right and what he got wrong.

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Speaker 2: That will be primetime event because he was always such

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Speaker 2: a clear eyed and very objectivetive, in thoughtful analyst for

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Speaker 2: so many years. I know a lot of people will

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Speaker 2: want to hear what he makes of the wild West

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Speaker 2: of today. For sure. That'll be great. Cindy, I am

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Speaker 2: looking forward to seeing you in a little over two

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Speaker 2: months again on the beautiful UCLA campus June eighteenth for

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Speaker 2: the fiftieth annual UCLA Entertainment Symposium. Thank you for your

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Speaker 2: time and talking through these issues with me. Can I

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Speaker 2: thank you too? Thank you so much. As we close

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Speaker 2: out today's episode, here's a few things we're watching for

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Speaker 2: on Friday. You are not the boss of me. Here

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Speaker 2: comes the Malcolm in the Middle reboot on Disney plus

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Speaker 2: Hal and Lois Forever. I love that show in its

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Speaker 2: first incarnation. Don't miss my colleague Matt Donnelly's great story

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Speaker 2: about how the long stalled Madonna biopic became an arc

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Speaker 2: on the upcoming season of the Studio. It's complete with

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Speaker 2: the material girl herself. It's a good read, and don't

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Speaker 2: forget to listen tomorrow for highlights from our Power of

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Speaker 2: Law Breakfast featuring conversations with filmmaker Paul fig and our

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six Power of Law honoree Patricia Glaser. Before

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Speaker 2: we go, congrats to Kerry Heally. She's been named vice

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Speaker 2: president of Communications for the National Association of Broadcasters. She

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Speaker 2: was most recently with public affairs firm Purple Strategies, and

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Speaker 2: before that she worked in communications for the US Chamber

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Speaker 2: of Commerce. Thanks for listening. This episode was written and

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Speaker 2: reported by me Cynthia Littleton, with contributions from Michael Schneider

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Speaker 2: Stick's Nix Hickpicks. Please leave us a review at the

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Speaker 2: podcast platform of your choice, and please tune in tomorrow

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Speaker 2: for another episode of Daily Variety.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Daily Variety is presented by City National Bank.

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Speaker 1: For over seventy years, City National has proudly served the

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Speaker 1: entertainment industry with banking solutions tailored to the unique needs

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Speaker 1: of this business. From complex negotiations to long term financial planning,

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Speaker 1: City National supports the people and businesses behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: Visit CNB dot com slash Entertainment to learn more here

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Speaker 1: for every stage of the journey. City National is a

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Speaker 1: subsidiary of Royal Bank of Canada member FDIC