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Cards issued by JP 30 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 4: Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC subject to credit approval, 31 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,279 Speaker 4: offer subject to change terms apply. 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics just doesn't seem to make sense. It tells 33 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: us that the universe is fundamentally random, that some questions 34 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: just don't have answers, that there's a limit to what 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: can be known about reality, and that things change when 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: we look at them. More than that, it tells us 37 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: that reality is fundamentally different from what we have imagined. 38 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: But what if that's not true? What if that's wrong? 39 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: What if it were possible to build a theory of 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics that doesn't describe the universe as bizarrely random, 41 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 1: that doesn't have any special role for observers, that doesn't 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: suffer from the famous measurement problem, and that lets us 43 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: think of the microscopic world as very similar to our 44 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: familiar intuitive world. And what if this theory actually worked 45 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: and was able to describe and predict experiments? That is, 46 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: what if there's an intuitive alternative to mainstream quantum mechanics. 47 00:02:47,120 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: If there were, why on Earth wouldn't it be embraced. Hi, 48 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor of 49 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: physics that you see Irvine, and I want to believe 50 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: that the world makes sense. We are all drawn to 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: basic questions about the nature of the universe. How does 52 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: it work, Why is it this way and not some 53 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: other way? How did it all begin? And how will 54 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: it all end? Physics is supposed to be a way 55 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: to get answers to those questions, and so welcome to 56 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: the podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production 57 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, where this is precisely the kind of question 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: we ask and the kind of answer we reach for. 59 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: And the amazing thing is that physics kind of seems 60 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: to work. It offers explanations, explanations that not only work 61 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: because they can predict what happens in experiments, but explanations 62 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: that usually make some kind of sense. The stories they 63 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: tell us are mathematical and could be very different from 64 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: the stories we guessed at. It turns out the Earth 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: is millions of years old and not thousands, that stars 66 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: are massive balls of fusion in the sky rather than 67 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: tiny pinpricks in a screen. But in the end, these 68 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: mathematical stories, if physics tells us about the universe, they 69 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: are coherent, they are sensible. We can use them to 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: understand how the universe really is. Except in one area, 71 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. While we do have a working theory, we 72 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: struggle to make sense of it. What does it really mean? 73 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: What is it telling us about how the world really is? 74 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: And while we have lots of different interpretations, we struggle 75 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: to accept the story that they tell us. Is the 76 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: universe really random? Is everything really described by the wave function? 77 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 1: Does it collapse when you observe it or split into 78 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: millions of meta universes? Or do objects not really have 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: any properties on their own to observe or all properties 80 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: relative to the observer. None of these are easy to absorb, 81 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: to click into our minds and let you say, oh, yeah, 82 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: I get it, that's how the universe is. But what 83 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: if there was a version of quantum mechanics that was 84 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: more intuitive, that was deterministic, that didn't need some observer 85 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: effect or multiple universes or a redefinition of the nature 86 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: of reality. Well, today we will be exploring a less 87 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: popular theory of quantum mechanics that doesn't rely on randomness 88 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: and uncertainty. It tells us that what is happening to 89 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: tiny particles is much simpler and easier to swallow, and 90 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: we'll talk about why it's been overlooked by mainstream physics. 91 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: So today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: does quantum mechanics have to be so random? My friend 93 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: and co host Jorges on a break. So I'm continuing 94 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: our series of conversations with experts in quantum mechanics. We 95 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: spoke to Adam Becker about mainstream quantum mechanics, to Carlo 96 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: Rovelli about his theory of relational quantum mechanics, to Sean 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: Carroll about the Many world's interpretation, and today we are 98 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: speaking to an expert on pilot wave theory, also known 99 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: as Bomian mechanics. So it's my great pleasure today to 100 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: introduce all of you to Professor Valia Alori, who, if 101 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: I understand correctly, holds two PhDs, one in physics and 102 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: one in philosophy, so she's the perfect person for us 103 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: to talk to about the crazy philosophical consequences of quantum mechanics. 104 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: She's also a full professor in the Department of Philosophy 105 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: at Northern Illinois University and a fellow at the John 106 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: Bell Institute for Foundations of Physics. Professor Alori, welcome to 107 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: the podcast. Thank you for having me, well, thank you 108 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: for coming here to talk to us about the mysteries 109 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics. Before we get into the details of 110 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: pilot wave theory, I thought we should take a step 111 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: back and remind ourselves why we have so many theories 112 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics and why there are still so many 113 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: questions about it. To me, the basic question we have 114 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: about quantum mechanics is what is going on? How do 115 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: we understand the story that it's telling us. Our intuition 116 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: is to think of particles as tiny dots of matter, 117 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: but quantum mechanics usually tells us that they are basically different, 118 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: that they are fundamentally different kinds of things because they 119 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: can maintain two contradictory possibilities at once. There's also this 120 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: wave function that seems to control what happens, but then 121 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: it collapses when you touch it, but it's not clear 122 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,559 Speaker 1: what the rules of that collapse are. It's so hard 123 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: to get a mental picture of what's going on with 124 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: the little particles. So how do you approach this question 125 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: of trying to understand what quantum mechanics means? 126 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 5: So first of all, let me just say that I'm 127 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 5: not sure that we should understand quantum mechanics philosophically. There 128 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 5: is a sense in which we don't understand quantum mechanics 129 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 5: even physically as a physical theory, because I mean, the 130 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 5: theory seems to be talking about you know, electrons and 131 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 5: protons and men better in general and fields, but when 132 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 5: you actually look at the formalism, it's unclear exactly what 133 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,679 Speaker 5: plays the rollos of what. So we do have an equation, 134 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 5: the Shootinger equation, which is a question of evolution for 135 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 5: the wave function. Should we understand the wave function as 136 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 5: a physical object if the wave function is a physical object, 137 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 5: what does it represent? Does it represent particles, does it 138 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 5: represent fields? Since I was a student, just to put 139 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 5: it bluntly, I really had trouble relating to the theory 140 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 5: as a physics student. But even granting that it's acra 141 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 5: to talk about that as a theory about something, Let's 142 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 5: put it this way. The theory, I would say, is 143 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 5: either empiredically inadequate or it's incomplete. 144 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: Why is that? 145 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 5: Well, because I just said that, you do have this equation, 146 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 5: which is the Shreadinger equation, which is a again the 147 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 5: question of evolution of an article the wave function, and 148 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 5: the wave function is a call like that because it's 149 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 5: a wave. So and wave can superimpose. You know, you 150 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 5: throw a rock in the pond, right, throw another rock 151 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 5: in the pond, and you see waves from one rock, 152 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 5: and then you see waves from the other rock. They superimposed. 153 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 5: You have interference in the fraction of this kind of 154 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 5: behavior that you would attribute two waves. Okay, And so 155 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 5: since they do superimpose, if you think of the wave 156 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 5: functions that are presenting objects of physical objects right at 157 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 5: the microscopic level, they could be in a superposition state, right, 158 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 5: and nucleus or radioactive substance of subsort could be in 159 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 5: the superposition of a decayed state or a non decayed state. 160 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: And by superposition you mean that there's two possibilities for 161 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: an object that could be spin up or spin down, 162 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: or decayed or not decayed. There's two options for the 163 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: situation it can actually be in. 164 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 5: Yes in a sense, yes, more generally, I mean mathematically, 165 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 5: this is the mathematical property of the equation. 166 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 3: Right. 167 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 5: I mean the prototype example is the problem of the 168 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 5: Shuldinger cat, right, in which you do have this cat 169 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 5: which is in a box. In the box that is 170 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 5: this vial of poison. The vial of poison will break 171 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 5: because it's connected to this radioactive substance. So it will 172 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 5: break if the substance will decay, but nothing happens, it 173 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 5: will not break. So what happens is that if the 174 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 5: nucleus decays, dile of poison breaks and the cat dies. 175 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 3: Okay. 176 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 5: So that's a possible state of affairs. Otherwise, nothing happens 177 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 5: and the cat stays alive, okay. And so what happens 178 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 5: is that, however, given the superposition state, possibly given the 179 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 5: fact that there is a possibility of having a superposition 180 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 5: state as a true physical state for the system, then 181 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 5: you could also have this microscopic superposition of decayed and 182 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 5: non decayed which actually spread out of the cat. And 183 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 5: so the theory predicts this microscopic superposition which will never 184 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 5: ever observe. They are not observable. That's not what we 185 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 5: have experienced us. So there is a very strong sense 186 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 5: in which theory as it is is empirically inadequate, because 187 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 5: when we open the box and when we check on 188 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 5: the cat, the cat is either dad or alive. 189 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing you saying is that quantum mechanics 190 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: is useful as a description of these microscopic states, by 191 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: which I think you mean like quantum particles, electrons, and photons, 192 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: et cetera, But that we don't really understand what it 193 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: means and we can't access it directly. We can't like 194 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: see these things. We have to interact with them using 195 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: macroscopic objects like detectors or our fingers or cats, et cetera, 196 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: which don't have the same quantum properties, and so it 197 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: doesn't really answer the question of like what's actually going 198 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: on in the microscopic level. Is that a summary of 199 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: the problem. 200 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 5: Yes, actually it's more than that. So not only doesn't 201 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 5: explain what's going on intuitively at the microscopic level, but 202 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 5: also if you try to apply the theory to everything, 203 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 5: including cats and detectors and stuff like that, the theory 204 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 5: doesn't give you what you observe. So it's really bad 205 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 5: for the theory. The theory doesn't. I mean, it is 206 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 5: actually falsified directly by the fact that the straining question 207 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 5: is it's. 208 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: A linear I think, because you're saying that they suggest 209 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: that cats should also be in superpositions, and fingers and 210 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: detectors and everything should be in superpositions. But that's not 211 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: what we observe. That's what you mean by experimentally falsifying. 212 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. 213 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 5: And of course, I mean you know, the founding fathers 214 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 5: were not a naive, and they newness, okay, and that's 215 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 5: why they proposed at least that's what to Nouman did, right. 216 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 5: He proposed that there is actually a second evolution equation 217 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 5: for the wave function. And so they say, okay, right, 218 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 5: you don't want microscopic superposition, Okay, So when do you 219 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 5: get them again? Oh, when there is a measurement, aha, 220 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 5: So when the measurement is performed, then there is a 221 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 5: different evolution equation. Okay, the wave function randomly collapses in 222 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 5: one of the terms, the superposition, and when you open 223 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 5: the door and you see the cat haha, the wave 224 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 5: function actually collapses. So you right, in a sense right 225 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 5: as the detector right, you collapse the wave function. 226 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: An issue there is that we don't have a clear 227 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: definition of what a measurement is and when it happens. 228 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: Because you can imagine, you know, if I'm poking something 229 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: with my finger, the tip of my finger is still 230 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: a microscopic particle, so why should it collapse the wave 231 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: function and two particles on the tip of my finger 232 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: should still be a quantum mechanical system. So there's no 233 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: like clear line when something becomes classical or microscopic when 234 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: the wave function should collapse. 235 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. 236 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 5: I mean we don't know who does the collapsing, who 237 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 5: kills the cat? 238 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 3: Right? 239 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 5: So is it me when I open the door, or 240 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 5: is it my consciousness? We don't really want to enter 241 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 5: into that. So it is a problem that you're suggesting. Namely, 242 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 5: it's not a precise physical theory doesn't really define what 243 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 5: a measurement is because I mean, this is puzzling because 244 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 5: we just would like measurement just to be physical processes 245 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 5: like anything else, right, I mean, they're made of particles, 246 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 5: quantum particles, and so why are they special. So there 247 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 5: is a sense in which started from this, which is 248 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 5: called the measurement problem, because I mean, we are actually 249 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 5: measuring what is the state of the cat, and the 250 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 5: cat is actually measuring what is the state of the particle. 251 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 5: Another way of putting this would be that measurements when 252 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 5: you're performing a measurement, Quantum theory says that measurements do 253 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 5: not have a precise result. Okay, so like the cat 254 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 5: doesn't have a precise state, and so various. I mean 255 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 5: people call them interpretation, but I actually think that they 256 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 5: are different theories, but they have different solutions of these 257 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 5: problem so to speak. So booming mechanics is one of those. 258 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 5: It does solve this problem, even if I do think 259 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 5: that's not the way the reason why it was proposed. 260 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 5: So this theory was proposed by I mean, the first 261 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 5: version of this was proposed by the Brody in nineteen 262 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,239 Speaker 5: twenty three as part of its dissertation. 263 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: So according to. 264 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 5: This theory, what happens is that I mean, just like 265 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 5: very very Some people like to put it unromantic, right, 266 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 5: something very plain and boring in a sense obvious because 267 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 5: it according to this theory, matter is made of particles. 268 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 5: It's like in classical mechanics, but they do have a 269 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 5: different evolution equation than quantum theories. In this theory there 270 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 5: is this object which is the wave function, which is 271 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 5: the same guy as ordinary quantum theory, but it evolves 272 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 5: according to Streadinger equation. So you do have an evolution 273 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 5: equation for the particles, which is first order, and then 274 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 5: you have an object which is the wave function, which 275 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 5: evolves like in regular quantum mechanics, according to the Streadinger equation. 276 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: So then in the Copenhagen interpretation, the one most people 277 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: are familiar with, the wave function is supposed to be 278 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: everything is supposed to describe the whole system, and particles 279 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: when we're not looking at them sort of operate according 280 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: to this wave function, which evolves according to the Shorter equation. 281 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: But then there's this weird second bit where things collapse 282 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: to particle like behavior that we observe when you look 283 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: at them. So, for example, you have a particle that's 284 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: supposed to hit a screen, the whole wave hits the 285 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: whole screen, but at some point when it interacts, when 286 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: that measurement happens, then it becomes a single point, a 287 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: flash of light on that screen. And so you're saying 288 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: that boy and can exist different because not only do 289 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: you have the wave function, but you also have the particles. 290 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: It's not like this. There's sometimes waves and then sometimes particles. 291 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: They're always particles, but they're governed by this wave that 292 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: sort of guides them through their path. 293 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 5: Yes, so there are always particles. That's what matter is 294 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 5: made of. Tables and chairs and people and screens and 295 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 5: detectors and whatever are all made of particles. So what 296 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 5: happens is that these particles their trajectories is mathematically written 297 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 5: down in terms of this wave function, and this way 298 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 5: function in itself evolves according to a given equation. Okay, 299 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 5: So usually what you said is kind of important because 300 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 5: the very common way of describing the theory, which is 301 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 5: also called because of this reason, the pilot wave theory, 302 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 5: is that this particle are pushed. 303 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: Around by this wave. 304 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 5: Okay, So the usual slogan is, oh, it's not particle 305 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 5: and waves or waves, it's particle end waves. 306 00:16:58,640 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 3: Okay. 307 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 5: So there is a sense in which this is true, 308 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 5: in the sense that there are particles and there is 309 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 5: also this wave function. However, I think that it is 310 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 5: kind of misleading to think of that in these terms, 311 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 5: because if you think about what kind of entity the 312 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 5: wave function is, it is a wave, but not a 313 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 5: wave in three dimensional space. Okay, if you think of 314 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 5: how to represent the wave function, what the wave function 315 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 5: really is? It's a function of all the particles, right, 316 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 5: it is a function of the configuration, in the case 317 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 5: of bomb me mechanics, the function of the configuration of 318 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 5: all the particles. So it has three dimensions for every particle. 319 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 5: So in total it has three n dimensions if the 320 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 5: universe is composed of n particles, so it's not a 321 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 5: field in three dimensional space. 322 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: The way function, then, just to be clear, talks about 323 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: the trajectory of all the particles in the universe, and 324 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: so they're all sort of combined into this one grand object. 325 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 5: The way function Bob me Mechanics talks about is the 326 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 5: wave function of the universe. So the one that evolves 327 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 5: according to the Shottinger question is the way function of 328 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 5: the universe. So I do have two things to clarify here. 329 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 5: So The first thing is, so how we should interpret 330 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 5: this wave function physically? It's an open question. I mean, 331 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 5: philosophers and physicists start talking about this. 332 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: All the time. 333 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 5: But I do think if you describe Bomber mechanics as 334 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 5: I just did, namely, is the theory of particles with 335 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 5: the wave function defining that trajectory. And you can understand 336 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 5: the wave function has pushing the particles just in the 337 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 5: same way as you understand gravity is pulling stuff right 338 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,239 Speaker 5: on the ground. Okay, So it's I think that the 339 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 5: best and this is my personal take on this, is 340 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 5: that the best way of understanding the way function in 341 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 5: Bomia mechanics is to think of that as law. Like right, 342 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 5: It's part of the ingredients of the law of nature, 343 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 5: something that you need right in order to specify the 344 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 5: right trajectory, the one that you observe. And so the 345 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 5: other thing was about the wave function of the universe. 346 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 5: So the fact that the way the function is a 347 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 5: function of all these particles is something that leads to 348 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 5: a very important feature of bombing mechanics, which is it's 349 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 5: no locality. 350 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: And I want to talk about non locality in a minute, 351 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: but first I just want to make sure that we 352 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: have a clear sense of what's going on here. So 353 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: we talked about how the problem with quantum mechanics was 354 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: this measurement problem that what happens when you measure this 355 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: wave and it collapses into a particle. So how exactly 356 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: does Bomian mechanics solve that problem? Is it because things 357 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: are always a particle and so when you look at them, 358 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: they were a particle and it's no big deal, and 359 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,239 Speaker 1: this is where it was, and it has like a 360 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: well defined trajectory that in Boe Mean mechanics you really 361 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: can think about like electrons as tiny little dots of 362 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: matter flying through the universe, the way planets fly through 363 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: the Solar system. 364 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's right. 365 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 5: In the case of the cat, the cat is made 366 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 5: of particles like everything else, so it is either. 367 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 3: Dead or alive. 368 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 5: Okay, the cat is either dead or alive at all times. Okay, 369 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 5: So the microscopic superposition should not belong to the wave function, 370 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 5: but the wavefunct, which is not what cat is made of. 371 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 5: The cat was made of particles in particles of a 372 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 5: precise location, which is what it is. 373 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: Right, either in the dead camp or in a life camp. 374 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: So This is really different from the way people are 375 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: sort of taught to think about quantum mechanics, that information 376 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: isn't there until you measure it, that there's a fuzziness 377 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: to the universe, that there is fundamentally random all these 378 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: really alien elements of quantum mechanics that make it so weird. 379 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: Boemi mechanics seems to sort of like chuck that out 380 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: the window and say, no, everything actually is determined. There 381 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: is no randomness or uncertainty. There's just some information you 382 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: sometimes haven't measured yet, but it's really there. That the 383 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: cat really is dead or is alive. It's never sort 384 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: of uncertain. Is that true that there's really no randomness, 385 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: no true randomness in Bomian mechanics. 386 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 5: It depends on what is meant by that. So it 387 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 5: is true that the cat is either dead or alive. 388 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 5: It is true that the particles even passes through one 389 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 5: sleet or the other slate. It is true that when 390 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 5: you observe a flash on the screen that was coming 391 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 5: from a particle that traveled all the way from the 392 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 5: source to the green. 393 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: And it is true that there is no fuzziness. 394 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 5: That's why I think that boomy mechanics is physically clear, 395 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 5: and the question is okay, so is there no randomness? Well, 396 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 5: now there is randomness because the prediction of Boomer mechanics 397 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 5: are provable to be the same as quantum mechanics, and 398 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 5: quantum mechanics predicts probabilities. 399 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 3: Right. 400 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 5: The traditional story is that you do get only the 401 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 5: probabilities of the results. Right, you obtain this, this or 402 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 5: that not with the definite outcome. For sure, you have 403 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 5: a probability distribution of the experimental results. So the legitimate 404 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 5: question is where is this probability is coming from? In 405 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 5: Bomian mechanics, they come from the fact that So, I mean, 406 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 5: this is a more general question about how is it 407 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 5: possible to get probabilities? If you have a deterministic theory. 408 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 5: Deterministic theory, you have one past, one future, right. 409 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 3: If you know the law. 410 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 5: If you not the initial condition, you know everything. Right, 411 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 5: everything is the termine. If you have this Laplacian demon 412 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 5: knows it all and everything. He knows everything. So this 413 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 5: is a deterministic theory. So what are probability is coming from. 414 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 5: They're coming from the initial conditions. Okay, so there are 415 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 5: two elements here, right. In determinism is something like that 416 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 5: given the initial conditions and given the laws, you know everything. 417 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 5: So if you do know the laws and you do 418 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 5: know that I mean principle, you can predict anything. 419 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: I want to talk more about this randomness and initial conditions, 420 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: but first let's take a quick break. With big wireless providers, 421 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: what you see is never what you get. Somewhere between 422 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: the store and your first month's bill, the price you 423 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: thought you were paying magically skyrockets. 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All right, 488 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: we're back and we are talking about Bomian mechanics, a 489 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: really fascinating quantum theory that describes the universe as filled 490 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: with actual, tiny little dots of matter moving on what 491 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: are like classical paths, but guided by a wave function 492 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: that gives them the appearance of wave like behavior. And 493 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: the element that we're talking about right now is this 494 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: question of randomness. In traditional quantum mechanics, we are told 495 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: that the universe is fundamentally random, that there aren't hidden 496 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: variables that control what actually happens. But Bonian mechanics says 497 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: the opposite. It says that things are actually determined by 498 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: the initial conditions, and that if you do the same 499 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: experiment multiple times with exactly the same initial conditions, you 500 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: should get the same output. So I'm a particle physicist 501 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: and it's a large hadron collider. We smash protons together 502 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: multiple times, and we often say that if we smash 503 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: those protons together with exactly the same initial conditions, we 504 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: would still get different outcomes every time. That it's quantum mechanical, 505 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: and that it's drawn from some probability distribution that somewhere 506 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: mysteriously the universe is like rolling the die based on 507 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: this probability distribution and deciding what happens on a given collision. 508 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: But you're saying that Boonian mechanics is deterministic, and that 509 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: if I get two different collisions giving me two different outcomes, 510 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: that's because the initial conditions were slightly different, the protons 511 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: at a slightly different energy or slightly different angle, and 512 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: that if it was actually able to repeat the same 513 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: exact experiment, I should get the same exact outcome. Is 514 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: that right? 515 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 3: So yes? 516 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 5: So so if you say that you do have this 517 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 5: distribution of the particles, the particles of distributed according to 518 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 5: quantum eclibum distribution, and it is an equilibrium distribution and 519 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 5: nothing changes anymore, then that's the most complete information that 520 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 5: you may have about these particles. And see, we do 521 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 5: not have more knowledge than this about the particles. Then 522 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 5: we have absolute uncertainty about the precise positions of the particles. 523 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 5: And so this plays out into having a distribution of 524 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 5: the outcomes at the end of the experiment. 525 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: I see. So we have particles which go through the 526 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: experiment using deterministic laws. So the entire outcome is determined 527 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: for each particle based on how it came into the experiment. 528 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: But we have some distribution of inputs that the particles 529 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: when they come into the experiment, they're never all actually 530 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: at the same angle or location or whatever. There's some 531 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: variation there and that gives a variation in the output. 532 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: So not a randomness, but you have sort of variation 533 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 1: and the inputs gets translated to a variation on the outputs, 534 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: sort of like you know that game where you drop 535 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: a ball and it goes left and right and left 536 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: and right and left and right. It's sort of chaotic. 537 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: It's very hard to predict exactly what slot it's going 538 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: to go into. But in theory, if you did drop 539 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: it exactly the same place twice, it should end up 540 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: in the same slot twice. So Boemian mechanics describes the 541 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: universe that way that you have some like variation in 542 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: how the balls start to drop, which is how you 543 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: get a variation in the output. But each trajectory of 544 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: each one really is like a tiny, classical little baseball. 545 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: That's crazy to me. I mean that requires like a 546 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: whole rethinking of the idea of quantum mechanics, because I've 547 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: spent twenty years getting used to this concept of the 548 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: universe being random and unavailable and fuzzy, and this is 549 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: now saying, oh, no, you actually don't have to take 550 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: that whole weird route after all. 551 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 5: Yes, that's right, So you don't have to, and so 552 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 5: why go for it? So, I mean, there is this 553 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 5: uncertainty that you have regarding then the configuration, right, the 554 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 5: initial configuration but that's it, right, You don't have to 555 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 5: transform that into necessarily into somehow random trajectories or randomness 556 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 5: more radical levels. 557 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: But where's the fuzziness come from in the beginning? I mean, 558 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: does the universe start with fuzziness? Because the standard picture 559 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: we have, like why the universe is not totally smooth 560 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: while we have galaxies here and not over there, is 561 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: that we had some like quantum fluctuations in the early 562 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: universe that gave us densities which you know, dot dot dot. 563 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: Billions of years later we have galaxies. Where do those 564 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: fluctuations in the density of the early universe come from? 565 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: If not from quantum randomness, is it some pre pre 566 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: initial condition or the big thing? 567 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I have no idea, so I mean, but 568 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 5: I mean this is I think it's a very very 569 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 5: important thing to notice. 570 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: Right. 571 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 5: So if you do have a theory, which is like 572 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 5: moving mechanics, is precise mathematically and physically, meaning you do 573 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 5: have equations right written there, they apply every time. Right, 574 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 5: it's not like oh, you use this or use that measurement, 575 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 5: No measurement. No, it's precise, okay, and it's precise physically. 576 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 5: It gives you a picture of what's going on, which 577 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 5: is exactly how it was in the classical you know, 578 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 5: when we're thinking about classical physics, and one of the 579 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 5: you know, the merit is that you can visualize. 580 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 3: Okay. 581 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 5: So but if you do have this theory and there 582 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: are crazy things about it, you know how to which 583 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 5: questions are needed? Right? 584 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: Which questions are really the ones that we should focus on? Okay? 585 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 5: So one question is where is this absolute uncertain thing 586 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 5: coming from? Another question, right, is what about the fact 587 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 5: the way function is a function of all the configuration. 588 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 5: There is a sense in which you may say that, 589 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 5: you know, boombing mechanics removes all the romance from from physics, 590 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 5: and that I think that's a merit romance. 591 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: I would say, removes all the headaches the head. 592 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, exactly. I mean to me, it removes all 593 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 3: the headaches. 594 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 5: But some people, you know, they think of that, Oh yeah, 595 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 5: but I mean the observer, you know, gains again, right, 596 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 5: the center of the attention. I'm not sympathetic at all 597 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 5: about this kind of talk, but I mean some people 598 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 5: are attracted by the craziness, right, and so when they 599 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 5: hear about bombing mechanics, they think, oh, where is all 600 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 5: the fun where is this? I mean, physics is fun, 601 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 5: but maybe in a different way. 602 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: I'm sympathetic to that because I think we want physics 603 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: to teach us the truth of the universe, and we 604 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: hope in our hearts somehow the truth of the universe 605 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: is not what we imagine, that we're going to be 606 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: learning something that requires some sort of like mental revolution 607 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: to be like, wow, the universe is so weird and 608 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: different from what we imagine. And so if you're just 609 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: telling me, know, the universe at the tiny scale, it's 610 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: just a tiny little bunch of baseballs, the way it 611 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: is sort of like the atomic scale and the macroscopic 612 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: scale and the scale of planets and stars, then yeah, 613 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: I guess that does remove a little bit of the mystery. 614 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: But you know what, I was struggling to learn quantum 615 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: mechanics and absorb it intuitively as a college student. The 616 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: thing that really got me over the hump were these 617 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: bells theorems, and these bells inequalities that really seemed like 618 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: definitive proof that quantum mechanics was random. And we have 619 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: these experiments and very clever people have shown that there 620 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: are these correlations among entangled particles that simply cannot happen 621 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: if quantum mechanics was not fundamentally random, that you can't 622 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: like secretly hide all the information that it can't be 623 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: the things are really just one way or not the 624 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: other way that you know before you look at the electron. 625 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: It always was spin up in my mind. Those bells 626 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: in equality really sort of like killed that possibility. Said, no, 627 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: you have to accept fundamental randomness. Why don't these theorems, 628 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: these bells and equalities and those experiments, why don't they 629 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: kill Bomian mechanics. 630 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 5: They did kill it for a long time. Actually, you know, 631 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 5: the first theorem that was the theory which allegedly proved 632 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 5: that hidden variables are impossible, was due to for Noymann 633 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 5: in nineteen thirty five or something like that, and so 634 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 5: he basically wanted to put an end to all for 635 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 5: reasons that are you know, maybe historically interesting, but I 636 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 5: mean what he wanted to provide was a proof and 637 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 5: mathematical proof that you cannot do better than quantum theory. 638 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 5: So that was just like kind of you know, oh, 639 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 5: we all would like to have a pictorial view of 640 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 5: visualizeable theory, right, but we cannot. That's what he wanted 641 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 5: to prove, and so he went by contradiction. Okay, so 642 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 5: he said, okay, let's pretend for a second that we 643 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 5: can complete quantum mechanics. Let's pretend for a second that 644 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 5: we can add these hidden variables right to the theory. 645 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 5: The theory is not complete, right it is. There are 646 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 5: these even variables. At first, they're hidden for them in 647 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 5: the sense that quantum theory doesn't specify what they are. 648 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 5: And so he said, okay, let's pretend let's start with 649 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 5: this theory, let's work it out, let's work the consequences out. 650 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 5: And what he obtained was that there is some sort 651 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 5: of a contradiction, like you know, five is greater than seven. 652 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 5: I mean, it's not really the case, but I mean 653 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:11,959 Speaker 5: you can imagine. 654 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 3: Something like that. Okay. 655 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 5: So he said, okay, what are the assumptions? I mean 656 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 5: the reasonable assumption. So the only assumption that we have, 657 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 5: So we had reasonable assumption, we started from this Hiddene 658 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 5: viable theory. We get contradictions. So the only way out 659 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 5: is just to say there are no hidden variables. 660 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 3: The quantum world is weird. 661 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, Van Noyman is 662 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: one of the great mathematical geniuses of the century and 663 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: really credited with like pulling together the mathematics of modern 664 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: quantum theory. And so when he said something, people tended 665 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: to listen, and you know, it was sort of difficult 666 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: to stand up to Van Noyman, you know, back in 667 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: the forties when he was in his heyday, he was 668 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: very influential. 669 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 3: Exactly. I mean, this is actually something normal. 670 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 5: It's not like you can charge these people to have 671 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 5: listened and just relied on the authority. It was just 672 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 5: like kind of normals. It's for nomen process theory. I mean, 673 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 5: there is not much of a reason to suspect fact 674 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 5: that he was wrong. But he was wrong because he 675 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 5: assumed something which is a standard assumption of quantum theory. 676 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 5: The experiment doesn't really change the system, Okay, the interaction 677 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 5: is small enough that the property that you're trying to 678 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 5: measure is left the same. Okay, Like I was talking 679 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 5: about before, I do believe I have a fever. Say okay, 680 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 5: I want to measure my temperature and making an experiment, 681 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 5: put the thermometer under my arm. Wait a second, wait 682 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 5: for the interaction. Then the mercury or whatever, the galium 683 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 5: or whatever, it is expense and it gives me the temperature. Okay, so, 684 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 5: but the temperature that I read is not really my 685 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 5: temperature before I actually put the thermometer under my arm. 686 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 5: It's actually the equilibrium temperature between the thermomytery and me. Okay, so, 687 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 5: but what I read is we forget about this all 688 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 5: the time because we believe that I mean, this is 689 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 5: the property of the thermometer, which is thermometer in such 690 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 5: a way that it doesn't affect too much that the equilibrium 691 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 5: temperature is really close to original temperature. 692 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: So you're saying that, for example, when you measure your temperature, 693 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: you actually measure slightly lower temperature than your actual temperature 694 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: because the thermometer is slightly cooler than you and you guys 695 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: have come into equilibrium, and it's sort of like putting 696 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: a tiny little piece of ice on you and it's 697 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: cooled you down a little bit. And in the same way, 698 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: you need to take that into account. And band Noyman 699 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: ignored the impact of the measurement on the system when 700 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: he was making all of his calculations and proof that 701 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics had to be random, that you couldn't have 702 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: any hidden variables so right. 703 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 5: It's actually worse than that, because I mean, this is 704 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 5: a general assumption that we all make when you're doing 705 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 5: quantum theory. Right, we do assume that, I mean, the 706 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 5: operators represent properties. The problem is that most of the 707 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 5: time the experiments are such that they perturbed the system 708 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 5: so much that they don't measure anything about the system. 709 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 5: They tell you something about the interaction. Think about you 710 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 5: want to know where the table is, Okay, so you 711 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 5: switch on the light. Basically what happens you hit the 712 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 5: table surface with footons. The photons go into your retina, 713 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 5: and the retina records the result. Right, but I mean 714 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 5: the photon bounce back, but also the table recoils. It 715 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 5: to be you forget about that, okay, because the mass 716 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 5: and blah blah blah. Okay, it's much bigger. However, instead 717 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 5: if instead of willing to try and find the position 718 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 5: of the table, you want to try and find the 719 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 5: position of an electron, Okay, you switch on the light. 720 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 5: The photon hits the electron, and the electron goes So 721 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 5: what you measure the electron is going to click somewhere 722 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 5: in some detector. 723 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 3: Somewhere, So the position what you're measuring is. 724 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 5: Not the position of the electron before, it's the position afterwards. Okay, 725 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 5: which is totally fine, But I mean what is tricky 726 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 5: sometimes what you want is that not What for Noemen 727 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 5: actually proved was not that the variables are impossible, but 728 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 5: that he proved that not all experiments are actually measurement, 729 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 5: so all the certain experiments are able to measure, namely 730 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 5: those experiments where the interaction is not that high to 731 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 5: destroy the system or perturbic too much. 732 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: And how does that connect with hidden variables? Like I 733 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: get that he's showing that you can only make a 734 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: measurement if you're making a very small, negligible interaction on 735 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: the system, that you're extracting information from what happened before 736 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: you measured it. How does that connect to the question 737 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: of whether quantum mechanics is really random or whether there's 738 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: sort of hidden information in there that controls what's happening. 739 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 5: It doesn't have much to do with hidden variables. But 740 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 5: for sure, his theorem was supposed to be showing that 741 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 5: hidden variables are impossible, Okay, but he didn't show that 742 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 5: because he had this assumption in it. He came out 743 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 5: with the contradiction because he was assuming this, and so 744 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 5: he was assuming that there are properties and these properties 745 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 5: have actually weird behavior. 746 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: So he set out to prove that hidden variables couldn't exist, 747 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: and he did it by contradiction. But he considered a 748 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: false assumption into his proof, which is the thing that 749 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: led to the contradiction. So his conclusion about hidden variables 750 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: was therefore invalid because the contradiction came from somewhere else. 751 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: And then this stood for decades. Right, people thought, oh, 752 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: by norm improved, the quantum mechanics must be random. So 753 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: this burglar theory, this, this deterministic idea of quantum mechanics, 754 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: we shouldn't even think about that. And then what happened? 755 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: When did people realize, oh, hold on a second, Van 756 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: Normen was wrong and it's possible to have determinist quantum mechanics. 757 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, some people actually figured this out immediately, but 758 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 5: we're ignored either because they were, you know, not very 759 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 5: well known figure, or because they did really want to batter. 760 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 3: I mean, according to some. 761 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 5: People, did Einstein figured this out immediately, but he didn't 762 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 5: bother to reply. And it is also true that the 763 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 5: original proof of h. Normen had other issues, which, however, 764 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,760 Speaker 5: we're you know, taking care of in proofs that came later. 765 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 5: But the person who actually figured this out was Bell, 766 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 5: John Bell, who actually came back to this Phenoyemen proof 767 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 5: and figure out where he was wrong, namely the assumption 768 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 5: that operators necessarily mean you can understand experiments always as measurement, 769 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 5: which is not necessarily the case. 770 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: So the same Bell who's responsible for most people thinking 771 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: that quontomic has to be random because he showed these 772 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: crazy inequalities is the one who also revealed that Noyman 773 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: was wrong in proving the quantum mechanics is random. So 774 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: this Bell guy had a pretty big role to play 775 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: in our understanding quem mechanics. 776 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 5: Yes, yes, and I mean, and also just the case 777 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 5: that he was often misunderstood for many years, even if 778 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 5: he clearly wrote down what he was trying to prove. 779 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 5: So I mean, indeed he was writing about for Noyman's proof, 780 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 5: and very shortly after he came up with his own 781 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 5: bels inequality. So he did try to provide it did 782 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 5: invariable theory. So he was trying to do the same 783 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 5: as for Noymann and say, okay, so if we do 784 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 5: have this is an ar variable theory, what do we 785 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 5: get there is a sense in which you can take 786 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,959 Speaker 5: as you were doing at the beginning, Right, He's inequality 787 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 5: just like a different variety of impossibility proof against the invariable. 788 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 5: But actually, as many people would say, even if there 789 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 5: is a sense in which it's controversial, I mean it's 790 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 5: controversial whether he actually proved it. What is not controversial 791 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,439 Speaker 5: is what he sought. Namely, he sought to have proven that, 792 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 5: at the end of the day, if you have a 793 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 5: theory which respects the prediction of quantum mechanics, that this 794 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 5: theory has to be non local. 795 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: Right, So let's unpack what that means for a moment, 796 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: Because Bell's inequality tells us that the universe has to 797 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: be random, there can't be any hidden variables. But it 798 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: turns out there's a caveat. That's only true if you're 799 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: talking about so called local information, right, and information which 800 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: is accessible to somebody like in their immediate environment. You know, 801 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: like I can know what's near me, I can measure 802 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,720 Speaker 1: something nearby, but I don't know anything about what's happening 803 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: in Andromeda right now because this sort of limited passage 804 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: of information. And I want to talk more about entanglement 805 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: and locality. But first, let's take another quick break. When 806 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth or 807 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably not 808 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite. 809 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are has set 810 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 1: themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral 811 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working hard every 812 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, 813 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example, 814 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: most dairy farms reuse water up to four times the 815 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, 816 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is us dairy tackling greenhouse gases? 817 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from 818 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and 819 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,399 Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice 820 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,320 Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that 821 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the 822 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy 823 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: products we love. With less of an impact. Visit us 824 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more. 825 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 2: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing 826 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 2: the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved 827 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 2: ones who need them to. 828 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 3: Get home safely. 829 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,320 Speaker 2: Protect our cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too. Go safely, 830 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,240 Speaker 2: California From the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans. 831 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: We're just days away from our twenty twenty four I 832 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: Heard Radio Music Festival, presented by Capital One. The biggest 833 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: headliners in live music will be taking over to Mobile Arena, 834 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: Las Vegas. 835 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 4: Lost some special surprises and moments you are not going 836 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 4: to want to miss. 837 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: Stream only on Hulu. 838 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 4: The iHeart Radio Music Festival. 839 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: And listen on iHeartRadio. 840 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 4: The most anticipated live music events of the. 841 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: Year this Friday and Saturday, starting at ten thirty pm 842 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 1: Eastern seven thirty Pacific. 843 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 7: Hey everyone, this is Jimmy O'Brien from John Boy Media. 844 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 7: I want to quickly tell you about my podcast. It's 845 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 7: called Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday and 846 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 7: for about thirty minutes, I dive into three topics in 847 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 7: Major League Baseball that I am interested in breaking stories, trends, stats, 848 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,760 Speaker 7: weird stuff. Sometimes I make up my own stats. Sometimes 849 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 7: I do a lot of research and it ends up 850 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 7: I was wrong the whole time. So that's something you 851 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 7: can get in on Jimmy's Three Things podcast to stay 852 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 7: up to date on Major League Baseball and to make 853 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 7: you just a smitch smarter than your friend who's a 854 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 7: baseball fan. You listen to me and then you go 855 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 7: tell them, hey, I know this and you don't, So 856 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,800 Speaker 7: I make you smarter than your friends. That's what Jimmy's 857 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 7: Three Things is all about. Listen to Jimmy's Three Things 858 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 7: on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 859 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 7: You could also find it on the Talking Baseball YouTube 860 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 7: channel and new episodes drop every Tuesday. 861 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: Okay, we're back and we are talking about whether quantum 862 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,719 Speaker 1: mechanics is what we call local. We know that there's 863 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,399 Speaker 1: a limit on how fast information can move, that there's 864 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: this speed limit of information in the universe, and that 865 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: information cannot move instantaneously. But this gets confusing when we 866 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: talk about in angled particles, you create two electrons so 867 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: that they have to have opposite spin, but you don't 868 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,320 Speaker 1: know which electron is spin up and which one is 869 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: spinned down. But as soon as you measure one to 870 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: be spin up, for example, you know instantaneously that the 871 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: other one has to be spinned down. And that seems 872 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,760 Speaker 1: sort of non local because the particles can be entangled, 873 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 1: but they can also be really far apart. So all 874 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: of a sudden, when you measure the spin of one particle, 875 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: the other one, which is many many kilometers or maybe 876 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: light years away, instantaneously collapses to have the other possibility. 877 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 5: So I would put it slightly differently in the sense 878 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 5: that I would say that in general what Bell proofs 879 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 5: tools that you do have no locality. In general, at 880 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 5: the beginning, particle one didn't have any spin property because 881 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 5: of the entire state. When it's measured, instead, oh it 882 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 5: turns up up so and the other immediately down. 883 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,479 Speaker 1: And the issue there, of course, is that these things 884 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: can be separated. Right, So if these two particles, they 885 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: have to have opposite spins, and classical or in the 886 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: traditional quanom mechanics tells us that both of them have 887 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: the possibility to be up and down. And so when 888 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: you measure one of them and becomes up, then the 889 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: other one now hundreds of miles away or thousands of 890 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 1: miles away, somehow instantaneously goes from being up or down 891 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: to only being down. And that's this question of non locality, right, 892 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 1: How does the information get from one particle, you know, 893 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: to the other particle faster than the speed of light. 894 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 3: Yes, that's a problem. 895 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 5: That's something that they regarded as a non starter. It 896 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 5: was just like thinking about I mean, that's one possibility 897 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 5: and the other possibilities instead that they really had a 898 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,720 Speaker 5: property of spin since the beginning, right, So you measure 899 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 5: spin up because the first guy always had spin up 900 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 5: from the start, okay, And so they don't actually talk, right, 901 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 5: They were prepared in up and down, and you detect 902 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:54,919 Speaker 5: them up and down. 903 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: And that's this hidden variables interpretation that they always are something. 904 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: It's just you don't know about it, hidden from you 905 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: until you measure it. But that there's no actual uncertainty. 906 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,399 Speaker 1: It's not like there's the particles actually in up and 907 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,760 Speaker 1: down until you measure it. And so that's this problem 908 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: with non locality, right. And you're saying Einstein and collaborators 909 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: were suggesting this is ridiculous because it requires a theory 910 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,239 Speaker 1: that's non local, that somehow these things have to coordinate 911 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 1: to make sure that they're always opposite spins. And so 912 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: what did Bell show? Bell showed that every theory of 913 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics has to be non local. 914 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,760 Speaker 5: Yes, because I mean he started off with a theory 915 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 5: like that and he predicts inequality, and so they eat 916 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 5: the variables. You have to imagine something like this, so 917 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 5: you have quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics implies that there has 918 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 5: to been variables. 919 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: So one of the main objections people might have to 920 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 1: this theory of deterministic particles being guided by the wave function, 921 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,840 Speaker 1: that information is actually there, it's just we don't know it. 922 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes is that we thought the quantum mechanics have to 923 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: be random because of these arguments by Bell and these 924 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,240 Speaker 1: experiments that showed that you couldn't explain these experiments using 925 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,760 Speaker 1: some hidden variables. But it turns out that you couldn't 926 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: explain those experiments using local hidden variables, but you can 927 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,240 Speaker 1: explain those experiments using non local hidden variables. So Boneian 928 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,120 Speaker 1: mechanics works and is consistent with experiments if you have 929 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: non locality, this idea that particles that are not in 930 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: the same place, that are not near each other can 931 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: somehow you know, communicate or coordinate their arrangements. And you 932 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: might think, well, that's crazy, that's bonkers, how could that 933 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 1: be possible? And that seems like a pretty big objection. 934 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: But I think as you were saying, Bell showed that 935 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: this is actually true and required for all theories of 936 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, not just Boomian mechanics, And so it's not 937 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: really a strike against Bonian mechanics to say that requires 938 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: non local information. 939 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 5: Yes, that's true, because I mean, he did prove his inequality, 940 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 5: and if you're right, then down in the appropriate way 941 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 5: you will see that the hidden variable is just a 942 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 5: passage in the deduction, but it's actually something that you 943 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 5: don't require. So that arguably what's going on is that 944 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 5: every single theory that has the same prediction as fund 945 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 5: to mechanics will turn out to be non local. 946 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: But doesn't non locality seem sort of crazy? I mean, 947 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: special relativity tells us that information takes time to propagate 948 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: through the universe, that what's happening in Andromeda can't influence 949 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: me right now because I'm outside of its light cone. 950 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,240 Speaker 1: So if you're telling me that not only does Bonian 951 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: mechanics which seems like a beautiful description of the universe 952 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: and nicely deterministic, require non locality. But all theories of 953 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics require non locality. How do I then accept that? 954 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: How do I think about the universe as non local? 955 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: Does it mean that every particle in Andromeda potentially can 956 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:40,720 Speaker 1: influence me? Right now? 957 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,759 Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, so that's the craziness. Right. 958 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 5: So that's a good thing about Bona mechanics because in 959 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 5: this theory the non locality is obvious. It's clear right 960 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,640 Speaker 5: there in the wave functions. So the next thing that 961 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 5: we need to do as physicists is to investigate how 962 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 5: it's possible for a theory like that to be compatible 963 00:49:58,480 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 5: with relativity theory. 964 00:49:59,640 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 3: Right. 965 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,280 Speaker 5: We just directs us to the right questions again before 966 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,879 Speaker 5: I actually talk about that. I mean, so you don't 967 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 5: really have to go into the interpretation and show that 968 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,880 Speaker 5: all the other interpretations are non local. Just think about 969 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 5: the regular theory, okay, with the collapse. When you do 970 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 5: have the collapse, the collapse is no local, right, I mean, 971 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 5: think about the original EPR argument. Right, how do you 972 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 5: explain the compere relation over there? It's no local, right? 973 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 5: You measure one the other has to tell the first 974 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 5: one has to tell the other one. Right, that's no 975 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,919 Speaker 5: locality right there. It's not a problem of the hidden variables. 976 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,359 Speaker 5: I mean the regular I mean the textbook theory has 977 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 5: it right there. Indeed, Heisenberg accepted that, and he has 978 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,160 Speaker 5: there are some lectures that I forgot the year, the 979 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 5: precise year, in which he talks about exactly this. Right, 980 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 5: the collapse is no local, but then he says it 981 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 5: doesn't contradict relativity. 982 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:54,920 Speaker 3: He didn't really take it seriously. 983 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,759 Speaker 5: That much because he thought that it can accuse the 984 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,399 Speaker 5: no locality of the collapse to transfer information. So if 985 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 5: you think of relativity as a theory of signals, there 986 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 5: is not I mean, you can get around this's. 987 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:09,879 Speaker 3: Not locality, right. 988 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: And so for listeners who are curious, it does seem 989 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,440 Speaker 1: like there's some weird non local features of quantum mechanics, 990 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 1: but it is not possible to use that non locality 991 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,960 Speaker 1: to send information faster than the speed of light. And 992 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 1: Jorge and I did a whole podcast on that, so 993 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,799 Speaker 1: check that out in detail. We don't have time to 994 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: get into all of that today, but if you're curious 995 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,239 Speaker 1: about why you can't send information faster, than the speed 996 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,840 Speaker 1: of light using quantum entanglement. We did cover that in 997 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: a whole podcast episode. All right, so this is really 998 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 1: fascinating and I don't want to use too much more 999 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 1: of your time, So I just want to ask you 1000 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,400 Speaker 1: if Boney and Mechanics, you know, is a nice, beautiful 1001 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: picture of the universe and explains all the experiments that 1002 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: we have and doesn't require us to accept some strange 1003 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:51,880 Speaker 1: alien uncertainty and randomness that's counterintuitive and only requires the 1004 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: acceptance of this concept of non locality, which already is 1005 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,839 Speaker 1: present in all other quantum theories. Then why isn't it 1006 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,400 Speaker 1: the dominant quantum theory? What are the objections against it? 1007 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 1: Is it's still sort of like historical inertia because von 1008 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: Neuman didn't like it, or are there you know, real 1009 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: philosophical objections to it. 1010 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 5: So, I mean, I think that part of the problem 1011 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,280 Speaker 5: has to do with the fact that historically it was blocked. 1012 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 5: I mean there is all this you know, historical accidents 1013 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,799 Speaker 5: that happened one after the other. I mean, first Ball 1014 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 5: was you know, ostracized for various reasons, and then for 1015 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 5: Noymann contributed to this. There seems to be no real 1016 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,520 Speaker 5: reason to reject this theory from a rational point of view. 1017 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 5: I mean it provides a clear mathematical picture. It's a 1018 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 5: clear physical picture as well. You do have to accept 1019 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 5: no locality, as you said, but I mean it's something 1020 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 5: that we have to deal with. Some people sometimes mentioned that, oh, 1021 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 5: it's not testable in the sense that provably the prediction 1022 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 5: of the Boomian mechanics are the same as quantum theory. 1023 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 5: That's not a good objection for a variety of reasons. First, 1024 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 5: because I mean you have a piece of evidence. You 1025 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 5: have two theories, right, and so which one of the 1026 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,360 Speaker 5: theory is the evidence confirming, assuming that you can confirm 1027 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,400 Speaker 5: a theory the first. 1028 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 3: Okay, so who came first? 1029 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 5: Then brow in nineteen thirty twenty twenty three, right, and 1030 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,319 Speaker 5: some of Cole No, no, no, But it's simpler, right 1031 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 5: you quan to mechanics is simpler. 1032 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:12,960 Speaker 3: That's just one equation. 1033 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:17,320 Speaker 5: Booe mechanicis has two equations, one equation with two evolution equations. Okay, 1034 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 5: so what about time of flight? You have particle physicists, right, 1035 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,880 Speaker 5: you measure time of flight, you measure where the particle 1036 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 5: how long they take to go from here to there? 1037 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,040 Speaker 5: But there is no time operit and so what are 1038 00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,520 Speaker 5: this time of flight results? Well, I mean the regular 1039 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,799 Speaker 5: quantum theory have resorts to this kind of approximation. Right, 1040 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,279 Speaker 5: If you approximate the time measurement in one way or 1041 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:36,840 Speaker 5: in another way, you get. 1042 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 3: Different distribution of results. 1043 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 5: Bomby mechanics gives you you know, the particles, right, so 1044 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,759 Speaker 5: you don't need the operators, right, you just do you 1045 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 5: use the particle trajectories and do the calculation that you 1046 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 5: would do classically. 1047 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,839 Speaker 3: But we quantum trajectories, and. 1048 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,439 Speaker 5: So there is the possibility of actually making an experiment. 1049 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 5: So there are some cases in which you can you 1050 00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,240 Speaker 5: can put yourself in a situation in which the prediction 1051 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 5: from quantums are different from booming mechanics. This can happen 1052 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,920 Speaker 5: because you know, quantum mechanics is not precise. It's ambiguos 1053 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,319 Speaker 5: in this respect, so you can test out. So there 1054 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,799 Speaker 5: is a strong sense in which you can you know, 1055 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 5: falsify quantum theial or quantum mechanics. So even if your 1056 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 5: physicists are usually strong about this undetectability business, but I 1057 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 5: mean no, you can detect. So I mean, I really 1058 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,840 Speaker 5: don't understand that much about the reasons why booming mechanics 1059 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:36,280 Speaker 5: hasn't been taken more seriously by physicists, and I hope 1060 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,640 Speaker 5: the situation will change. 1061 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,440 Speaker 1: Well, what it might require for to change is maybe 1062 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 1: for us to meet alien intelligence and talk to them 1063 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,040 Speaker 1: about quantum mechanics and you know, maybe their way in 1064 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: and they'll say, sorry, folks, we think it's many worlds 1065 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,080 Speaker 1: or no, what you call boomy mechanics is what makes 1066 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,400 Speaker 1: most sense to us. So on the topic, let me 1067 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: ask you totally off the wall question, what do you 1068 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 1: think are the chances of that that if we meet 1069 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,600 Speaker 1: alien intelligence that they will have sort of similar concepts 1070 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,879 Speaker 1: about the universe? I mean, really, another way to ask 1071 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,520 Speaker 1: the question, do you think what we're doing here are 1072 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,479 Speaker 1: playing games inside our own minds to try to tell 1073 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,359 Speaker 1: mathematical stories about the universe it makes sense to us, 1074 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:14,880 Speaker 1: or do you think we're actually probing something deep and 1075 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 1: universal which we could present without embarrassment at the first 1076 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,040 Speaker 1: Interstellar Physics meeting after we meet the aliens. 1077 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 5: I really do hope that we can meaningfully talk about 1078 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 5: the universe, and it seems like we are actually succeeding 1079 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 5: in that right. We explained so many things since the 1080 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,520 Speaker 5: beginning that we started doing science, not We've made many 1081 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,120 Speaker 5: hypotheses and constructed many theories, and some of them were 1082 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 5: bad ideas, some of them were better ideas. I think 1083 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 5: that the fact that we are explaining so much is 1084 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,200 Speaker 5: an indication that maybe we are. 1085 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 3: Onto something, but I don't know. 1086 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,800 Speaker 5: I hope that we can contribute to the alien meeting 1087 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:55,759 Speaker 5: in some way. 1088 00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,120 Speaker 1: Maybe they have their own version of von Noyman and 1089 00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: they've made their own mistakes along the way. We can 1090 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,840 Speaker 1: help them understand some of the things that we have learned. 1091 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 1: I hope also that when we meet the aliens, we 1092 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 1: can talk physics with them, because I hope that they 1093 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,040 Speaker 1: are advanced and that millions of years ago they were 1094 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: struggling with these questions and now to them it's child's play. 1095 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,920 Speaker 1: But I fear, honestly that everything we've learned is sort 1096 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,080 Speaker 1: of centered in the human mind. We're asking human questions, 1097 00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: we're telling human stories using mathematical tools that make sense 1098 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: to humans, and that it might be frankly impossible to 1099 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,239 Speaker 1: translate into this knowledge to any other intelligence. But it 1100 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,760 Speaker 1: remains to be seen, and the universe is filled with surprises. 1101 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: So I look forward to having hard quantum mechanics conversations 1102 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: with alien physicists, all right, And with that, I'll say 1103 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,200 Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on a podcast and 1104 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,600 Speaker 1: talking to us about this crazy concept of boney and mechanics. 1105 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,720 Speaker 1: It seems to me like sort of a beautiful theory 1106 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,080 Speaker 1: that lets us recover the sense that the universe makes sense. 1107 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 1: That these particles are flying through the air, and they 1108 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,960 Speaker 1: have trajectories, and they were here and then they're there, 1109 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 1: which means that they were sort of in between in 1110 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: the middle. That you can still think about the universe 1111 00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 1: in a way that's intuitive to you, and that you 1112 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,239 Speaker 1: can sort of get rid of a lot of this 1113 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,239 Speaker 1: quantum weirdness and uncertainty. In some ways, it even hangs 1114 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,040 Speaker 1: together better than other theories, and it's sort of unfortunate 1115 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,400 Speaker 1: that it was cast aside for so many decades because 1116 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,520 Speaker 1: of the mistake of eminent physicists. But we'll see what 1117 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,239 Speaker 1: the future holds and how much progress we have to make. 1118 00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: So thanks again very much for coming on the podcast. 1119 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:18,280 Speaker 1: It was a pleasure. 1120 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:19,640 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much. 1121 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain 1122 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,320 Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, 1123 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:39,000 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1124 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a 1125 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,520 Speaker 1: piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking 1126 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,440 Speaker 1: about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy 1127 00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,600 Speaker 1: industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to 1128 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,680 Speaker 1: find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and 1129 00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. 1130 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,040 Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from 1131 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:16,000 Speaker 1: manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and 1132 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability 1133 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:20,840 Speaker 1: to learn more. 1134 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,880 Speaker 2: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing 1135 00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 2: the roads every day. 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