Speaker 1: Pushkin. I know exactly what she ate, I know what
Speaker 1: she wore, I know who she talked to, I know
Speaker 1: what words she can use, I know what letters she
Speaker 1: can write, I know what books she's read. Like there's
Speaker 1: a moment there, and that moment lasts for several years
Speaker 1: where you actually do know every single input in another
Speaker 1: person's life. Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters.
Speaker 1: She also knew this would change that as her daughters
Speaker 1: got older and became more independent, Kelly would know less
Speaker 1: and less about their lives. But while Kelly knew this
Speaker 1: transition was inevitable, she still felt a tidal wave of
Speaker 1: emotions when it actually happened. I alternate between this very
Speaker 1: mature acknowledgement that like, this is how it goes, this
Speaker 1: is the relationship, this is the job, and the job
Speaker 1: is more or less done. And I had a lot
Speaker 1: of conversations with a lot of friends about like, can
Speaker 1: you believe this is the way the story goes? Wow? Wow,
Speaker 1: what an ending on today's show, how one woman's parenting
Speaker 1: journey went exactly according to plan and still left her
Speaker 1: reeling I'm maya shunker and this is a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans a show about who we are and who
Speaker 1: we become in the face of the big change. Adolescence
Speaker 1: is a time of incredible change for kids and the
Speaker 1: people who care for them. Neuroscience studies show that when
Speaker 1: we become teenagers, our brains undergo changes that drive us
Speaker 1: towards more independence. While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate,
Speaker 1: it can be pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes
Speaker 1: unflinchingly about these kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift,
Speaker 1: written as a letter to her daughters, is about the
Speaker 1: emotional hazards of raising children, and her memoir The Middle
Speaker 1: Place touches on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents
Speaker 1: and their children. She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders,
Speaker 1: where she often talks about parenthood and family life, like
Speaker 1: her conversation with writer Susan or Lean on empty Nesting.
Speaker 1: Parenthood has been on my mind a lot lately. I've
Speaker 1: been seeing my parents get older, and my husband Jimmy,
Speaker 1: and I are wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks,
Speaker 1: will still try and become parents. So Kelly's story has
Speaker 1: raised some big questions for me, like what do a
Speaker 1: parent and child owe each other, and how does this
Speaker 1: relationship evolve over time. Of course, we'll all have different
Speaker 1: answers to these questions. You'll hear my own surprise at
Speaker 1: several points in this conversation. My parents are immigrants, and
Speaker 1: they raised my three siblings in me with a mixture
Speaker 1: of Indian and American values, which means Kelly and I
Speaker 1: have different perspectives. But regardless of our particular views, Kelly
Speaker 1: showed me just how valuable it can be to ask
Speaker 1: ourselves these questions in the first place. Okay, now into
Speaker 1: my conversation with Kelly, I started by asking her why
Speaker 1: she wanted to have kids. I don't think I ever
Speaker 1: had a conscious moment where it was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: definitely want to be a mother. I don't think I
Speaker 1: ever had a change of heart. It was just totally
Speaker 1: woven in from the jump. And I'm not a particularly
Speaker 1: sweet person, like I wouldn't say that I'm huge nice
Speaker 1: or patient. I'm not a good cook. I always run late,
Speaker 1: I forget a lot of things. I am not good
Speaker 1: with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic element to parenting that
Speaker 1: I would give myself like a d So it wasn't
Speaker 1: that I thought I was going to be particularly good
Speaker 1: at it in those superficial ways of like managing a family.
Speaker 1: But what I wanted, what I craved, what I couldn't
Speaker 1: wait to be a part of, was the intimacy. And
Speaker 1: it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary, Like there is not
Speaker 1: in my life experience comparable relationships outside of the family frame.
Speaker 1: He use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out what that word means to you in this context. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: it's interesting. When we were growing up outside of Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: we only had one window unit air conditioner, and in
Speaker 1: the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees, it's
Speaker 1: so high you've bug bites up and down your whole body.
Speaker 1: And one by one, my older brothers and I would
Speaker 1: walk down the hall and go to sleep on my parents' floor,
Speaker 1: so that when we woke up every day in the summer,
Speaker 1: I'd have like Get's foot in my face and Booker's
Speaker 1: foot in my belly, and like we were just kind
Speaker 1: of in there together. I love that, And I loved
Speaker 1: that we didn't ever get central air conditioning. I loved
Speaker 1: it that that was the only way was to share
Speaker 1: this air together all night long and breathe all over
Speaker 1: each other, and you know, people are bourbon and farting,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of hilarious because you can only do
Speaker 1: it with so few people. Yeah. You know, if anything
Speaker 1: that you can only do with like a handful of
Speaker 1: people your whole life, like, that's just got to be significant. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I so resonate with this intimacy concept, And I think
Speaker 1: until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component
Speaker 1: of just being present with one another in all of
Speaker 1: these bland moments that are totally lacking in significins, except
Speaker 1: in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of
Speaker 1: familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when
Speaker 1: we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the
Speaker 1: kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection
Speaker 1: and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade,
Speaker 1: my family of six we went on a cruise and
Speaker 1: it was like the most exciting thing that right family
Speaker 1: was ever going to do. We went on one of
Speaker 1: these like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents
Speaker 1: treated themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room,
Speaker 1: and us four kids were put into this little box
Speaker 1: with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my
Speaker 1: favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't
Speaker 1: close enough in that little box together, because I just
Speaker 1: found it intoxicating to be so close to these people
Speaker 1: who I loved. Yes, exactly. So you ended up having
Speaker 1: two daughters, Georgia and Claire, And I'm curious to know
Speaker 1: whether in the early years your expectations of mom lined
Speaker 1: up with reality. So I mean it went off the
Speaker 1: rails fairly quickly because when Claire was one and Georgia
Speaker 1: was two, I got diagnosed with stage three cancer and
Speaker 1: I was in chemotherapy, and so everything was up in
Speaker 1: the air. I did surgery, then I did another surgery,
Speaker 1: then I had my ovaries removed. Then I did a
Speaker 1: whole other year of chemotherapy, and then it was like
Speaker 1: really finally over about maybe eighteen months after it started.
Speaker 1: And then you have to come all the way back
Speaker 1: down into your life again. And then it did start
Speaker 1: to feel like this is what I wanted in particular.
Speaker 1: Two things. One is my husband Edward got up super early.
Speaker 1: He left at six o'clock and then at six zo one.
Speaker 1: When the door closed, Claire would pad over and jump
Speaker 1: in on one side, and at six thirty Georgia would
Speaker 1: pad over and get in on the other side. And
Speaker 1: there was nowhere we had to be, and they were
Speaker 1: just on me. And I remember thinking, I know this
Speaker 1: is special. I know this will end. This is what
Speaker 1: I wanted, this is what I didn't want to miss
Speaker 1: right now, this feeling I had no pressures on me,
Speaker 1: they had no preschool, and oh god, it was so great.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing is all these super surprising moments,
Speaker 1: like a crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the
Speaker 1: mail and saying, what is this? And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's your last name. That's your last name.
Speaker 1: And she was like, what's a last name. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is I could not have seen
Speaker 1: this coming, Like, of course someone has to tell you
Speaker 1: that there's such a thing as a last name, and
Speaker 1: this is what yours is, and this is what the
Speaker 1: letters are, and this is the order you write them in,
Speaker 1: and this is how you do it. And so I
Speaker 1: remember writing in my journal that night I taught Georgia
Speaker 1: her last name. Today, you wrote in the New York
Speaker 1: Time that before our children become themselves, when they are
Speaker 1: more physical than intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece
Speaker 1: by piece. The way he sits like his dad, the
Speaker 1: furrow of her brow so much like her mom's, her
Speaker 1: flat feet, his luscious eyelashes just like Granpa's. I wonder,
Speaker 1: how did you quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was
Speaker 1: your version of this? Georgia makes this very funny face
Speaker 1: when she's reading or concentrating that sort of looks like
Speaker 1: she's angry, and it is exactly what Edward looks like
Speaker 1: when he's concentrating. So this little knot in her brow
Speaker 1: is Edwards. It feels like this idea of claiming our kids,
Speaker 1: I mean, it runs deeper than their physical traits. It
Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, I really want to understand when
Speaker 1: you say we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that
Speaker 1: for me and what that means. What does it mean
Speaker 1: to claim children? And like, what does that do to
Speaker 1: our own psychology as parents? Well, I think it's super
Speaker 1: dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded, and I think it's
Speaker 1: probably really common. I remember the first time Claire saw
Speaker 1: the ocean. We were driving in San Diego and we
Speaker 1: pulled over and she ran straight for the water, and
Speaker 1: then instantly like, instead of letting that just be hers,
Speaker 1: it was like, ah, she's just like you, dward, she's
Speaker 1: a swimmer, and it's like or or she's just her
Speaker 1: and she's having a great moment. And I think because
Speaker 1: uncertainty is so intolerable and because we're narrative making machines,
Speaker 1: that it's quite common and probably misleading that we might
Speaker 1: see a kid's personality trait and decide without even knowing
Speaker 1: we're doing it. This is because blank like either it's
Speaker 1: because you are the way you are, your husband is
Speaker 1: the way they are, they're your grandparents, something about their
Speaker 1: sibling or some moment that you observed, and so you're
Speaker 1: always like deconstructing your kid's behavior and tagging it. And
Speaker 1: I don't think that's to anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable,
Speaker 1: like we are dying to understand. We are eager to
Speaker 1: make sense of our children's moods and their behaviors and
Speaker 1: what they do that's problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging,
Speaker 1: and what they do that's spectacular that we can't wait
Speaker 1: to tell our friends they did, and kind of attribute
Speaker 1: that to people, because like, who wants to say, I
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, I don't know why she does that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like it's the very first thing you do is try
Speaker 1: to figure out why. When was the first time it
Speaker 1: occurred to you, Kelly that your kids were doing things
Speaker 1: or learning things that you were not a part of.
Speaker 1: So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her
Speaker 1: name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and
Speaker 1: Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care
Speaker 1: of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's
Speaker 1: house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable,
Speaker 1: and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them
Speaker 1: a little cookies and taking them out for a swim
Speaker 1: and whatever. All of this is sort of unknown to me.
Speaker 1: I'm just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her,
Speaker 1: she loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship.
Speaker 1: And fast forward like a year and a half. We're
Speaker 1: on a little family walk and this woman pulled over
Speaker 1: in her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia,
Speaker 1: And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid?
Speaker 1: There is no way that she could know someone that
Speaker 1: I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she
Speaker 1: doesn't even know words I didn't tell her, Like I'm
Speaker 1: doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know
Speaker 1: what she wore, I know who she talked to. I
Speaker 1: know what words she can use, I know what letters
Speaker 1: she can write, I know what books she's read. And
Speaker 1: this is probably why it's so hard to pull your
Speaker 1: hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and
Speaker 1: that moment lasts for several years where you actually do
Speaker 1: know every single input in another person's life because you're involved,
Speaker 1: you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it. You're
Speaker 1: talking about the early years, like the first few years,
Speaker 1: the early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia,
Speaker 1: and I was like, this is so weird. And I
Speaker 1: was like, Hi, I'm George's mom. And I remember hearing
Speaker 1: myself say I'm Georgie's mom and thinking, oh, this is
Speaker 1: this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning
Speaker 1: of me in the world as just George's mom. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming as your girls got older that you
Speaker 1: got more and more of these examples of how their
Speaker 1: lives were growing independently of yours. Well, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: very interesting to be told what your child can and
Speaker 1: cannot do by any number of teachers, and there's often
Speaker 1: moments of surprise there, so you're either like waiting for
Speaker 1: them to confirm all of your impressions. But if you're
Speaker 1: doing a good job, if you really have your mind
Speaker 1: wide open, you'll hear things that you think I didn't
Speaker 1: know that about her. I didn't know she loved math,
Speaker 1: or in the reverse. I remember this teacher of George's
Speaker 1: in high school said, George's like a great science student,
Speaker 1: like she understands everything. And I said to Georgia, god,
Speaker 1: you love science, and she said, oh no, I don't
Speaker 1: love science. I'm just good at science. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh right. Like again, there's this like fine parsing where
Speaker 1: your category making machine of a brain is like A
Speaker 1: plus B equal C, and she's like, no, aplus vehicles D.
Speaker 1: What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed
Speaker 1: to you that you either didn't know something about your
Speaker 1: daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them
Speaker 1: was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them.
Speaker 1: Sometimes thrilling, Sometimes it was a little moment of awe,
Speaker 1: like this is cool, like watching a great movie or
Speaker 1: reading a great book when you're surprised. Yea. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it was maddening because I was sure that I was
Speaker 1: right and the person was wrong, and then they had
Speaker 1: some influence in their life and I didn't want that.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think
Speaker 1: there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving.
Speaker 1: It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they
Speaker 1: get older. Yeah, when it came to their transition to college,
Speaker 1: and I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because,
Speaker 1: like you said, when when your kids are living under
Speaker 1: your roof, even if they don't share everything with you,
Speaker 1: you still get so much access to their lives just
Speaker 1: through mere exposure, right, Like you might see them interact
Speaker 1: with their friends after school, or you might know their
Speaker 1: or you will know their calendar of activities because you're
Speaker 1: doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least
Speaker 1: have this illusion that you have access to a large
Speaker 1: chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional
Speaker 1: content of their lives is being withheld from you. And
Speaker 1: so at some point you had to deal with physically
Speaker 1: separating from your kids when they went off to school.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for
Speaker 1: me of what it was like to drop your younger
Speaker 1: daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester. Well,
Speaker 1: it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before, and
Speaker 1: when I was taking her the night before, we had
Speaker 1: gone to pick up step at Target or whatever. And
Speaker 1: she goes tomorrow, when you wrought me off, know me,
Speaker 1: just know me, know who I am and what my
Speaker 1: preferences are. That's basically what she was saying, exactly, put
Speaker 1: me first. And I was like, I get it. You
Speaker 1: don't want a scene, you don't want tears, you don't
Speaker 1: want me talking to people. Just take the stuff in,
Speaker 1: drop it off, give her a hug, and get out
Speaker 1: of there. And I was like, I got this, I
Speaker 1: can do this, and I think I did all right.
Speaker 1: I mean, you'd have to ask her, but I think
Speaker 1: I did fine. So fast forward two years. I have
Speaker 1: to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is
Speaker 1: also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like ours, naughty, weeping,
Speaker 1: shaking moment. I can't even talk about it now. In
Speaker 1: the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like
Speaker 1: can I just let this all out? And basically what
Speaker 1: I was feeling is this is the part of life
Speaker 1: that I was looking forward to the most, and today
Speaker 1: is the end of it. And there will be great things,
Speaker 1: of course, so much good work to do, so many
Speaker 1: people to love and help I get it. But this
Speaker 1: is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever.
Speaker 1: We're never going back. And would you just mind if
Speaker 1: I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes
Speaker 1: and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in
Speaker 1: that van and we'll go load up your room and
Speaker 1: I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and
Speaker 1: so I just held her and then we went. It
Speaker 1: went so fast like it you know, it's because the car,
Speaker 1: like the blinkers are one, and when you pull up,
Speaker 1: there's a nice person with a clipboard and then like hi,
Speaker 1: you know you're in room three eighteen and you have
Speaker 1: thirty eight minutes to move this car, and so the
Speaker 1: blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle
Speaker 1: and you're going up and down the stairs and then
Speaker 1: it's over. And I was like hi, and honestly, Like,
Speaker 1: I know I probably sound like a crazy person, but
Speaker 1: I knew what was happening, and I was right. It
Speaker 1: is different. It is over, like that part is over
Speaker 1: and it's fine, Like I mean to have a great
Speaker 1: forty years, but there's no denying that, Like the big
Speaker 1: page has been turned and I'm something else now to them,
Speaker 1: I'm something different. I mean, you stand around with a
Speaker 1: bunch of moms on the playground and someone says their
Speaker 1: mom's coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how
Speaker 1: long she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind
Speaker 1: of where you end up, is that you're slightly like
Speaker 1: I love her, but like, yeah, three nine, that's where
Speaker 1: this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but
Speaker 1: feel it. I couldn't help it see it in its totality,
Speaker 1: and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging
Speaker 1: that this is real. We'll be back in a moment
Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. When Kelly Corrigan's daughters
Speaker 1: moved away to college, she was eager to stay involved
Speaker 1: in their lives, but her daughters were busy getting to
Speaker 1: know their new environment and figuring things out for themselves,
Speaker 1: and so when Kelly did connect with them, she would
Speaker 1: only receive small glimpses into their lives. This is when
Speaker 1: the rubber hits the road, I think, is when your
Speaker 1: kid moves out and you don't have eyes on them anymore.
Speaker 1: So you don't have a way to know their life
Speaker 1: and their moods and their wellbeing. You're not able to
Speaker 1: assess their well being with your own eyes. You can't
Speaker 1: hear the tone of their voice, you can't see their posture,
Speaker 1: you can't see whether they're eating or not eating, whether
Speaker 1: they went for a run or stay in bed. It's
Speaker 1: like a big black box and all you have are
Speaker 1: these tiny conversations where like four twelve on Tuesday, they
Speaker 1: might be in a great mood, and at four thirty
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, long after the call is over, something horrible happens.
Speaker 1: But until you talk to them again, you're still in
Speaker 1: four twelve Tuesday mode, where you're like, and people ask
Speaker 1: all the time. Wherever you go, people say how are
Speaker 1: your kids? And whatever they've told you on four twelve
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, you're like, she's great, She's awesome. And conversely,
Speaker 1: if you catch them on nine am on Saturday morning
Speaker 1: and they're terrible. Then they are terrible until the next
Speaker 1: time you talk to them and hear the spark back
Speaker 1: in their voice. When it came to the transition of college,
Speaker 1: one thing that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were
Speaker 1: given guidance by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents,
Speaker 1: now's your time to back the f off right, like
Speaker 1: there or something like that. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1: That was so interesting to me and so shocking and
Speaker 1: like not at all what happened, for example, when I
Speaker 1: was off to college. If no one is even thinking
Speaker 1: through this lens of child development and individuation or any
Speaker 1: of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, So Claire goes to University
Speaker 1: of Virginia and the day of drop off, there was
Speaker 1: a letter sent to all the parents of the freshman
Speaker 1: class and it said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff,
Speaker 1: and then it said, here's a note from our one
Speaker 1: of the people that works in our counseling office on campus.
Speaker 1: It is not okay for you to be texting your
Speaker 1: kid multiple times every day. The best thing you could
Speaker 1: do for them is to stand back a little bit
Speaker 1: and let them get into some kind of groove. Because
Speaker 1: as soon as you say to somebody, how's it going.
Speaker 1: The true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's
Speaker 1: going to take me eight weeks to tell you how
Speaker 1: it's going. As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to
Speaker 1: confirm this. But I feel like once you label something
Speaker 1: that it takes on greater meaning, Like that language and
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings are all kind of linked in this
Speaker 1: way that if she's if I make her say it's good,
Speaker 1: it's bad, I like it, I don't like it. How's
Speaker 1: your roommate she's okay. Then all of a sudden, that
Speaker 1: framing takes on added power to define what happens next.
Speaker 1: And that's such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally,
Speaker 1: leave your kids alone. Let them drive. If they want
Speaker 1: to contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond
Speaker 1: to your kid within like sixty seconds. Yeah, I'm just
Speaker 1: laughing this moment. Thinking back to when I felt this transition.
Speaker 1: I think it was in college at some point where
Speaker 1: you know, my parents were so available to me when
Speaker 1: I was in high school and in college. I went
Speaker 1: to college close by to where they live, so I'd
Speaker 1: still seen them a bunch, but I remember I would
Speaker 1: call my mom or dad and they were just too
Speaker 1: busy for me. My mom's like, I'm sorry, I'm helping
Speaker 1: people get green cards to study in this country, and
Speaker 1: my dad's like, I'm in the middle of the physics equation,
Speaker 1: you know. And I just remember thinking it was actually
Speaker 1: amazing in that moment to feel like a little bit
Speaker 1: of that lifeline was cut off, because it meant that
Speaker 1: I was on my own a bit, right, and I
Speaker 1: just had to kind of figure stuff out myself. And
Speaker 1: I never really thought about that until this moment, And
Speaker 1: now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for my development,
Speaker 1: that they had their own thing. Oh, it's phenomenal, And
Speaker 1: this is a huge new thing for me that I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get my head around right this second, Like
Speaker 1: something new is beginning now and I can make it great.
Speaker 1: Like I'm totally I love Edward, I love my work.
Speaker 1: We're starting new things. I love novelty. I'm learning, like
Speaker 1: everything I know how to put this together in a
Speaker 1: way that I can be happy and productive and useful.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that's something didn't end to articulate what
Speaker 1: ended right, or what felt so stark about the move
Speaker 1: away from home, or just maybe their adolescence, it was
Speaker 1: it was a decrease in emotional intimacy. Is that what
Speaker 1: you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean first I was grieving knowing them in the
Speaker 1: way that you know someone who lives in your house
Speaker 1: like you you're a kid in college or the rest
Speaker 1: of their lives, Like how much does your mom know
Speaker 1: about you right now? How much does my mom know
Speaker 1: about me right now? Not as much as she did
Speaker 1: when I was seventeen? Do you know who Tim Urban is?
Speaker 1: He writes this thing called weight but why Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: So he did this thing where it was like this
Speaker 1: little dot scale of how many days you have with
Speaker 1: your parents, And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five,
Speaker 1: a lot of days. Like when Georgia was one, I
Speaker 1: had three hundred and sixty five days with her. When
Speaker 1: Georgia is eighteen, I have thirty five days with her.
Speaker 1: When George's thirty, I have twelve days with her. When
Speaker 1: George's forty, I have five days with her, like five
Speaker 1: days in a year, like not that many. So I
Speaker 1: guess I was just grieving, like this is what's going
Speaker 1: to happen, This is the way this is, and it's
Speaker 1: so weird to me that something that was so consuming
Speaker 1: for me as a kid. It's like all I thought about.
Speaker 1: And then when it started happening, like when I met
Speaker 1: Edward and fell in love and got married and then
Speaker 1: we got pregnant, we got pregnant again, I thought, this
Speaker 1: is it, Like it's happening. But I didn't have any big,
Speaker 1: really specific visions about what happens now. So it wasn't
Speaker 1: like I was like moving into this awesome thing that
Speaker 1: I had been anticipating my whole life. It was like,
Speaker 1: oh God, this is the part where like nobody really
Speaker 1: knows what they're doing and how long they should do
Speaker 1: it for. And you know, like this part is so
Speaker 1: ambiguous compared to you know, in the first stage of
Speaker 1: your life, you're someone's kid, and then if you become
Speaker 1: a parent, then you do that for the next stage,
Speaker 1: and then the next stage is like what what Now?
Speaker 1: This is a time to like move your focus. It's
Speaker 1: like in my mind at night when I wake up,
Speaker 1: I literally think like of this visual where I'm rotating
Speaker 1: my field of vision away from them to the people
Speaker 1: in my life right now who can make use of me.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting. I have so much work. I
Speaker 1: have a TV show on PBS, I have a podcast.
Speaker 1: We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript,
Speaker 1: and I'm writing a children's book right now. Wow, And
Speaker 1: it's still not enough to get them out of my
Speaker 1: field of vision, like they're still right there. I still
Speaker 1: have to like sweep them away and like almost like
Speaker 1: earn my head and leave them in their own little
Speaker 1: box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something
Speaker 1: I will never know, right, It's not like I'm going
Speaker 1: to get the play by play later where they're like,
Speaker 1: here's what happened in college, Like it's not coming. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to know. It's none of my business, honestly,
Speaker 1: and if I'm doing it right, I don't even want
Speaker 1: to know. Like that's where I'm trying to get to.
Speaker 1: And so the way I do it is just like
Speaker 1: this little exercise where it's like they're they're full in
Speaker 1: the frame. I used to be a photographer, So if
Speaker 1: you can imagine, like you're holding a camera to your
Speaker 1: eye and you're filling the frame with your kids, and
Speaker 1: then you just rotate and you put somebody else in
Speaker 1: the center of the frame. You put your work, you
Speaker 1: put somebody you love who needs some help. You put
Speaker 1: somebody who makes you feel useful, You put some volunteer activity,
Speaker 1: you put your spouse, anybody like move your field of focus. Yeah,
Speaker 1: along the way as part of this long journey right
Speaker 1: through childhood and then adolescent and then now they're they're
Speaker 1: own adults going off into the world. Were you ever
Speaker 1: tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to
Speaker 1: protect yourself from getting hurt? I mean, probably like a
Speaker 1: like a shooting star kind of thought. But like the
Speaker 1: minute you see them on your phone, you're like, hey,
Speaker 1: how are you? You know, the night before you're like,
Speaker 1: I gotta stop. This is crazy. You know, I'm like
Speaker 1: losing my mind here. And then it's like it's like
Speaker 1: being in a romance a little bit. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon. I
Speaker 1: love that having a teenage daughter is like having an
Speaker 1: office crush, because you just like always like that you're
Speaker 1: thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about you,
Speaker 1: and you just like go up to their door and
Speaker 1: you're like a bunch of us are going to eat dinner.
Speaker 1: You're probably busy, you know, like just trying to play
Speaker 1: it cool, but like, don't worry because you might be
Speaker 1: like super busy, So I totally get if you can't come,
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, I've definitely like on a bad day
Speaker 1: when i feel like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm
Speaker 1: messing it up, I'm making it harder for them, I'm
Speaker 1: putting rocks in their backpack in some way that I'm
Speaker 1: newly aware of. And then you kind of like flooded
Speaker 1: with shame and defensiveness. And then I always think the
Speaker 1: same thought, which is I'm going to go to Europe
Speaker 1: and live there for five years and leave you alone
Speaker 1: and let you do your individuating and I'll see you,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're twenty eight, and it'll be great.
Speaker 1: Like you don't need me and I'm just making trouble
Speaker 1: and I got to avert my gaze. So anyway, yes,
Speaker 1: my instinct is like get out of the way. But
Speaker 1: I have to get out of the way in this
Speaker 1: very dramatic move where I'm like, I can't talk to
Speaker 1: you for five years, I go grow up and I'll
Speaker 1: take care of myself. And you know, it's so stupid.
Speaker 1: You're gonna miss me, kid, You're gonna miss me because
Speaker 1: I've actually a really good hang. Yeah that's right, that's right,
Speaker 1: that's gonna say. Kelly and I are hitting it off.
Speaker 1: I do find that I do find sometimes and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, people find like what I have to say
Speaker 1: to be useful, Like you know, like you're like, I
Speaker 1: have a TV show. Yeah, people like tune in? Do
Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe it? Yeah? You know, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: put myself in your shoes. And of course I don't
Speaker 1: have kids, so it's hard for me to fully appreciate
Speaker 1: the relationship or what that bond is like. But I
Speaker 1: could just imagine myself feeling betrayed by the system, if
Speaker 1: that makes sense, Like wtf, this is the arc, this
Speaker 1: is how things are supposed to play out, And now
Speaker 1: here I am with my heart just broken into pieces
Speaker 1: and feeling like I don't have the kind of intimacy
Speaker 1: that I had before with my kids, and not because
Speaker 1: I don't want it. In fact, I'm obsessed with them,
Speaker 1: Like I would just feel so ticked off. Did you
Speaker 1: ever feel that way? Yes? I feel I alternate between
Speaker 1: this very mature acknowledgement that like, this is how it goes,
Speaker 1: this is the relationship. This is the job, and the
Speaker 1: job is more or less done. And now I'm here
Speaker 1: to enjoy them when they happen to have time to
Speaker 1: enjoy me. Yeah, you know, like can't get enough, don't
Speaker 1: need a thing. That's my motto. It's like, can't get enough,
Speaker 1: don't need a thing. And I you know, I had
Speaker 1: a lot of conversations with a lot of mom friends
Speaker 1: about can you believe this is the way the story goes? Yeah? Wow, Wow,
Speaker 1: what an ending. Let's say that you're the organizer of
Speaker 1: the universe. You get to decide for just one moment. Finally,
Speaker 1: let's enter this. Finally, I know you've been waiting for
Speaker 1: this moment. I'm giving it to you, girl. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I want you to help me understand, like emotionally, if
Speaker 1: we're solving for your needs in this moment, what would
Speaker 1: the natural arc of parent child relationship look like? How
Speaker 1: would it have turned out on their way to college?
Speaker 1: How would it have been different? And you're in control,
Speaker 1: you're the design architect here that the way it would
Speaker 1: be different is that we would the parents would have
Speaker 1: some switch built into us that flips at just the
Speaker 1: right moment such that we can totally let go and
Speaker 1: be thrilled by the release. And I think some people
Speaker 1: have that. I mean, Edward, my husband would not give
Speaker 1: you the same answers to these questions, like he's delighted.
Speaker 1: He can't believe it. It's just fantastic. It's great that
Speaker 1: they're on their own. It's great they're independent. It's great
Speaker 1: that we don't they don't need to talk to us
Speaker 1: that much. Like it's all turning out perfectly, And I
Speaker 1: admire him for that. I think he's probably right, Like
Speaker 1: I don't defend where I'm coming from, and in fact,
Speaker 1: I consider myself flawed. Just don't think I'm alone in it.
Speaker 1: I just have a feeling that a lot of us
Speaker 1: feel this way. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even
Speaker 1: from a cultural perspective, I'm thinking about how different my
Speaker 1: own orientation is about what children owe their parents or
Speaker 1: vice versa. Like my parents aren't like, hey, is it okay?
Speaker 1: If I text your call? They will call me whenever
Speaker 1: the help they want, and the expectation does that I
Speaker 1: will pick up. So that's a whole another thing, which
Speaker 1: is just societal expectations within the Indian culture about what
Speaker 1: this relationship is like. And I'm just thinking in this moment,
Speaker 1: how curious is it that your answer to my question
Speaker 1: wasn't well, that my kids would just keep sharing their
Speaker 1: lives with me. Goddamn it, that's what I really want.
Speaker 1: I want them to keep sharing with me everything. And
Speaker 1: that's such an interesting perspective that your answer was an
Speaker 1: adjustment on the parents side. It involved no adjustment to
Speaker 1: how the kid's development turns out or that striving for independence.
Speaker 1: So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece.
Speaker 1: You just need to Yeah, oh interesting. You know one
Speaker 1: thing that makes me super happy, and I just noticed
Speaker 1: it because it happened yesterday is when I know that
Speaker 1: they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else, I'm delighted and
Speaker 1: it really helps me let go. So Georgia has this
Speaker 1: great friend named Nora, Claire has this great friend named Emma.
Speaker 1: Those relationships really help me release because I think, oh
Speaker 1: my god, whatever Claire takes to Emma, whatever Georgia takes
Speaker 1: to Nora, she's going to get great advice. They have
Speaker 1: great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations that like, sure,
Speaker 1: in a perfect world, I'd love to have that conversation.
Speaker 1: I'd love to be in on that. I love a
Speaker 1: deep conversation. I mean, I love talking to you, but
Speaker 1: it's not appropriate for me to be the one in
Speaker 1: that conversation. What's perfect is for them to have one
Speaker 1: great friend and have the two of them kind of
Speaker 1: figuring it out together. And that's true of both my girls,
Speaker 1: and that makes me really happy and it really helps
Speaker 1: me let go. So intellectually I'm on board. I want
Speaker 1: to know how you get your emotional side to catch
Speaker 1: up to that realization that actually it's developmentally appropriate for
Speaker 1: them to have that friend and for it not to
Speaker 1: be me. How do you because I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: think about okay, like a parents listening to this right now,
Speaker 1: being like, Kelly, you've convinced my prefrontal cortex that you've
Speaker 1: convinced my rational brain that this is how I ought
Speaker 1: to see things. But oh my god, it's a blow
Speaker 1: to feel like when they get broken up with I'm
Speaker 1: not the first person they're calling. I'm not on their
Speaker 1: favorites list. That doesn't bother me. Like, as long as
Speaker 1: you're in good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be my hands. The idea that you would be alone
Speaker 1: and in pain and not calling me. That kills me.
Speaker 1: I love you more than all the people in the
Speaker 1: whole world and anyone ever will, so let it be me.
Speaker 1: But if they have a peer, that's really my first choice.
Speaker 1: My first choice is that they would know true friendship
Speaker 1: with just one person that is plenty. You can get
Speaker 1: anywhere from there, and I had that. You know, I
Speaker 1: had a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talked
Speaker 1: about her all the time, and she's so important to
Speaker 1: me to this day. And I think it must have
Speaker 1: been lovely for my mom to think she's got Tracy Tuttle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the girl's never going to leave her and she never did.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've been friends for thirty five years. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons, Kelly, I was so excited and
Speaker 1: eager to have you on the show is that your
Speaker 1: story is so different from the others that we've heard,
Speaker 1: because in your case, everything did go to plan right.
Speaker 1: Your kids grew up, Yes, they became their own people.
Speaker 1: You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the
Speaker 1: ultimate success, right, like that is the end goal. And
Speaker 1: yet the reality of it totally knocked her socks off. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: there was no change of plants whatsoever the day they
Speaker 1: were born. This is what we would hope for. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think what it's done is it's it's made
Speaker 1: me expand my understanding of change in the context of
Speaker 1: this show and in my life, to include those experiences
Speaker 1: where we intellectually know what to expect, but we can't
Speaker 1: possibly predict how it will make us feel. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's right. I mean there's like a grand canyon between
Speaker 1: what I know and what I feel. Yeah, a grand canyon.
Speaker 1: And I can see that tension in this conversation. I
Speaker 1: feel like you've got these two You've got like the
Speaker 1: Angel and devil metaphorically like on your shoulders, right, and
Speaker 1: one of them is like, now, Kelly, this is what
Speaker 1: you ought to be like and then the other parts
Speaker 1: like bawling tears just remembering the moment you let your
Speaker 1: kid go. So I can the tension is so palpable
Speaker 1: to me in this conversation. Yeah, it's like an ongoing
Speaker 1: battle between intellect and emotion. Right, It's exhausting, My, it's
Speaker 1: so exhausting. Yes, how do you think differently about your
Speaker 1: role as a parent now than maybe you used to
Speaker 1: or just given the stage of life your kids are in.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will
Speaker 1: go bananas over that, but I really don't. That's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Tell me more about that. For me, that's the only
Speaker 1: way for me to get in the right space. It's
Speaker 1: the only way for me to orient myself relative to them.
Speaker 1: Is like, I'm not your parent. You don't belong to me.
Speaker 1: I'm not responsible for you. I don't own you. Your
Speaker 1: life is none of my business. You may share as
Speaker 1: much or as little as you like. I shouldn't have
Speaker 1: an opinion about everything, what you wear, who you date,
Speaker 1: how your hair it is, what your major is, what
Speaker 1: job you take, what are you doing this summer? So
Speaker 1: I'm just a person who's crazy about you. That's who
Speaker 1: I am. M. But I am not a parent in
Speaker 1: the way that I have always defined that word. And
Speaker 1: how did you define it before? You know, I'm responsible
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, I'm here to take care of you.
Speaker 1: And now I'm I'm you know, I'm on standby, I'm
Speaker 1: your emergency contact. Given the new contours of this relationship,
Speaker 1: I wonder what you feel that you can reasonably expect
Speaker 1: from your kids, Like, what do you feel that you
Speaker 1: should expect from your kids at this stage, I think
Speaker 1: I should expect as little as possible. I think that
Speaker 1: the next I mean, really, this sounds crazy, but I
Speaker 1: think the next time I can really expect things from
Speaker 1: them is when I'm old and dying. I think everything
Speaker 1: else is not their problem. And if they want to
Speaker 1: come around and great, but they don't owe me that
Speaker 1: they really don't. And yet you owe them being on
Speaker 1: standby indefinitely, that's right, able to cheer them on no
Speaker 1: matter what, and to love them unconditionally. Yes, yes, that
Speaker 1: is the framework of the relationship in my opinion, and
Speaker 1: that like that feels like a cheap deal. Kelly Corrigan,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm just listening out, and I get
Speaker 1: what you're saying, But damn, that's hard. It's the only
Speaker 1: way for it to be beautiful. It's the only way
Speaker 1: that it could be beautiful. M Okay. So I think
Speaker 1: what I'm realizing is, like we all talk about unconditional love,
Speaker 1: it's a platitude. Yeah, you have helped me better grasp
Speaker 1: what that kind of unconditional love can look like in
Speaker 1: this relationship. You've made it more specific for me, which
Speaker 1: is really helpful. I think to understand what we mean
Speaker 1: when we say the platitude, This is partly what we mean.
Speaker 1: We mean accepting that we're getting the short end of
Speaker 1: the stick and being okay with it. If there's any
Speaker 1: obligation from their end to me, then it can't be beautiful.
Speaker 1: It can just be the meeting of an obligation. If
Speaker 1: there's no obligation and then you actually have time together
Speaker 1: and you actually enjoy each other and there's actually sort
Speaker 1: of a nice flow between you, then it's beautiful. Somehow,
Speaker 1: you have to learn to relish giving it away with
Speaker 1: no expectation of return, because then if they return, when
Speaker 1: they return, when they love you back, when they crave you,
Speaker 1: it's magnificent. Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me
Speaker 1: next week when I talk to psychologist doctor Marissa Franco
Speaker 1: about the science of friendship. Marssa wants us to value
Speaker 1: our friends like we value our family and our romantic partners,
Speaker 1: because friends can help us access new and exciting parts
Speaker 1: of ourselves. Each person that we interact with is an
Speaker 1: advertisement for the kalidoscope of ways in which we can live.
Speaker 1: That learning happens through being able to see a friend
Speaker 1: engage at a certain hobby your interest and then you're like,
Speaker 1: maybe I would like that hobby your interests. It's that
Speaker 1: exposure that we get through each friend, and in that way,
Speaker 1: it's like each person that we interact with can bring
Speaker 1: out a new and different side of our identities. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produced
Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change of Family includes
Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.
Speaker 1: Louise Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course, of very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker, See you next week. My daughters
Speaker 1: have said to me, it's a hug, mom, not a hang.
Speaker 1: So Kelly, I'm here, Yeah, I'm here for the hang
Speaker 1: any day, Okay, I'll come over and we will embrace.
Speaker 1: I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny, I could pick
Speaker 1: you up and put me in my arms.