WEBVTT - The Devastation of Things Going Exactly to Plan 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:32.076 Pushkin. I know exactly what she ate, I know what 0:00:32.156 --> 0:00:34.276 she wore, I know who she talked to, I know 0:00:34.316 --> 0:00:36.636 what words she can use, I know what letters she 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:39.196 can write, I know what books she's read. Like there's 0:00:39.196 --> 0:00:41.556 a moment there, and that moment lasts for several years 0:00:41.956 --> 0:00:46.636 where you actually do know every single input in another 0:00:46.676 --> 0:00:51.116 person's life. Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. 0:00:51.716 --> 0:00:54.796 She also knew this would change that as her daughters 0:00:54.796 --> 0:00:58.236 got older and became more independent, Kelly would know less 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:01.516 and less about their lives. But while Kelly knew this 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:05.476 transition was inevitable, she still felt a tidal wave of 0:01:05.476 --> 0:01:10.196 emotions when it actually happened. I alternate between this very 0:01:10.276 --> 0:01:14.876 mature acknowledgement that like, this is how it goes, this 0:01:14.956 --> 0:01:17.676 is the relationship, this is the job, and the job 0:01:17.796 --> 0:01:20.236 is more or less done. And I had a lot 0:01:20.276 --> 0:01:24.676 of conversations with a lot of friends about like, can 0:01:24.756 --> 0:01:29.716 you believe this is the way the story goes? Wow? Wow, 0:01:30.036 --> 0:01:36.076 what an ending on today's show, how one woman's parenting 0:01:36.116 --> 0:01:39.916 journey went exactly according to plan and still left her 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:51.836 reeling I'm maya shunker and this is a slight change 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:54.476 of plans a show about who we are and who 0:01:54.476 --> 0:02:10.036 we become in the face of the big change. Adolescence 0:02:10.156 --> 0:02:13.516 is a time of incredible change for kids and the 0:02:13.556 --> 0:02:17.156 people who care for them. Neuroscience studies show that when 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:20.876 we become teenagers, our brains undergo changes that drive us 0:02:20.916 --> 0:02:26.196 towards more independence. While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, 0:02:26.516 --> 0:02:30.356 it can be pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes 0:02:30.476 --> 0:02:35.596 unflinchingly about these kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:38.396 written as a letter to her daughters, is about the 0:02:38.436 --> 0:02:42.276 emotional hazards of raising children, and her memoir The Middle 0:02:42.276 --> 0:02:46.316 Place touches on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents 0:02:46.396 --> 0:02:50.836 and their children. She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, 0:02:51.196 --> 0:02:54.556 where she often talks about parenthood and family life, like 0:02:54.636 --> 0:02:57.876 her conversation with writer Susan or Lean on empty Nesting. 0:02:58.836 --> 0:03:01.876 Parenthood has been on my mind a lot lately. I've 0:03:01.876 --> 0:03:04.756 been seeing my parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:08.036 and I are wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, 0:03:08.156 --> 0:03:11.996 will still try and become parents. So Kelly's story has 0:03:12.076 --> 0:03:14.876 raised some big questions for me, like what do a 0:03:14.916 --> 0:03:17.476 parent and child owe each other, and how does this 0:03:17.596 --> 0:03:21.996 relationship evolve over time. Of course, we'll all have different 0:03:22.036 --> 0:03:25.436 answers to these questions. You'll hear my own surprise at 0:03:25.476 --> 0:03:29.236 several points in this conversation. My parents are immigrants, and 0:03:29.276 --> 0:03:31.836 they raised my three siblings in me with a mixture 0:03:32.036 --> 0:03:35.516 of Indian and American values, which means Kelly and I 0:03:35.596 --> 0:03:40.076 have different perspectives. But regardless of our particular views, Kelly 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:42.516 showed me just how valuable it can be to ask 0:03:42.516 --> 0:03:46.556 ourselves these questions in the first place. Okay, now into 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:50.116 my conversation with Kelly, I started by asking her why 0:03:50.116 --> 0:03:53.036 she wanted to have kids. I don't think I ever 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:55.156 had a conscious moment where it was like, oh, I 0:03:55.236 --> 0:03:57.676 definitely want to be a mother. I don't think I 0:03:57.716 --> 0:04:00.676 ever had a change of heart. It was just totally 0:04:00.716 --> 0:04:05.276 woven in from the jump. And I'm not a particularly 0:04:05.516 --> 0:04:10.236 sweet person, like I wouldn't say that I'm huge nice 0:04:11.436 --> 0:04:14.996 or patient. I'm not a good cook. I always run late, 0:04:15.236 --> 0:04:18.796 I forget a lot of things. I am not good 0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:22.156 with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic element to parenting that 0:04:22.596 --> 0:04:25.516 I would give myself like a d So it wasn't 0:04:25.596 --> 0:04:27.676 that I thought I was going to be particularly good 0:04:27.716 --> 0:04:31.516 at it in those superficial ways of like managing a family. 0:04:32.836 --> 0:04:37.796 But what I wanted, what I craved, what I couldn't 0:04:37.876 --> 0:04:41.596 wait to be a part of, was the intimacy. And 0:04:41.716 --> 0:04:46.076 it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary, Like there is not 0:04:46.636 --> 0:04:51.876 in my life experience comparable relationships outside of the family frame. 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:56.116 He use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to 0:04:56.156 --> 0:05:02.956 figure out what that word means to you in this context. Yeah, well, 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:05.796 it's interesting. When we were growing up outside of Philadelphia, 0:05:05.996 --> 0:05:09.836 we only had one window unit air conditioner, and in 0:05:09.876 --> 0:05:11.796 the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees, it's 0:05:11.836 --> 0:05:14.036 so high you've bug bites up and down your whole body. 0:05:14.516 --> 0:05:17.756 And one by one, my older brothers and I would 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:20.436 walk down the hall and go to sleep on my parents' floor, 0:05:20.876 --> 0:05:23.076 so that when we woke up every day in the summer, 0:05:23.356 --> 0:05:25.596 I'd have like Get's foot in my face and Booker's 0:05:25.596 --> 0:05:27.836 foot in my belly, and like we were just kind 0:05:27.836 --> 0:05:31.716 of in there together. I love that, And I loved 0:05:31.796 --> 0:05:34.436 that we didn't ever get central air conditioning. I loved 0:05:34.476 --> 0:05:37.356 it that that was the only way was to share 0:05:37.396 --> 0:05:40.356 this air together all night long and breathe all over 0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:42.756 each other, and you know, people are bourbon and farting, 0:05:42.876 --> 0:05:46.356 and it's kind of hilarious because you can only do 0:05:46.436 --> 0:05:49.676 it with so few people. Yeah. You know, if anything 0:05:49.676 --> 0:05:51.396 that you can only do with like a handful of 0:05:51.396 --> 0:05:56.116 people your whole life, like, that's just got to be significant. Yeah. 0:05:56.196 --> 0:05:59.036 I so resonate with this intimacy concept, And I think 0:05:59.116 --> 0:06:02.716 until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:05.356 of just being present with one another in all of 0:06:05.396 --> 0:06:09.796 these bland moments that are totally lacking in significins, except 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:12.196 in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of 0:06:12.196 --> 0:06:16.156 familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when 0:06:16.156 --> 0:06:19.516 we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the 0:06:19.596 --> 0:06:24.556 kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection 0:06:24.716 --> 0:06:27.396 and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm 0:06:27.396 --> 0:06:30.156 just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade, 0:06:30.196 --> 0:06:32.916 my family of six we went on a cruise and 0:06:32.916 --> 0:06:35.556 it was like the most exciting thing that right family 0:06:35.596 --> 0:06:36.556 was ever going to do. We went on one of 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:40.196 these like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents 0:06:40.236 --> 0:06:43.356 treated themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room, 0:06:43.996 --> 0:06:47.156 and us four kids were put into this little box 0:06:47.276 --> 0:06:50.516 with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my 0:06:50.676 --> 0:06:54.236 favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't 0:06:54.236 --> 0:06:57.196 close enough in that little box together, because I just 0:06:57.236 --> 0:07:01.636 found it intoxicating to be so close to these people 0:07:02.596 --> 0:07:06.516 who I loved. Yes, exactly. So you ended up having 0:07:06.636 --> 0:07:10.476 two daughters, Georgia and Claire, And I'm curious to know 0:07:11.076 --> 0:07:14.236 whether in the early years your expectations of mom lined 0:07:14.316 --> 0:07:17.356 up with reality. So I mean it went off the 0:07:17.436 --> 0:07:21.676 rails fairly quickly because when Claire was one and Georgia 0:07:21.756 --> 0:07:25.036 was two, I got diagnosed with stage three cancer and 0:07:25.076 --> 0:07:29.276 I was in chemotherapy, and so everything was up in 0:07:29.316 --> 0:07:31.796 the air. I did surgery, then I did another surgery, 0:07:31.796 --> 0:07:33.636 then I had my ovaries removed. Then I did a 0:07:33.636 --> 0:07:35.996 whole other year of chemotherapy, and then it was like 0:07:36.076 --> 0:07:39.516 really finally over about maybe eighteen months after it started. 0:07:40.236 --> 0:07:42.756 And then you have to come all the way back 0:07:42.796 --> 0:07:46.516 down into your life again. And then it did start 0:07:46.556 --> 0:07:50.676 to feel like this is what I wanted in particular. 0:07:50.756 --> 0:07:54.036 Two things. One is my husband Edward got up super early. 0:07:54.076 --> 0:07:57.316 He left at six o'clock and then at six zo one. 0:07:57.716 --> 0:08:00.596 When the door closed, Claire would pad over and jump 0:08:00.676 --> 0:08:03.596 in on one side, and at six thirty Georgia would 0:08:03.596 --> 0:08:05.596 pad over and get in on the other side. And 0:08:05.676 --> 0:08:08.556 there was nowhere we had to be, and they were 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:12.836 just on me. And I remember thinking, I know this 0:08:12.916 --> 0:08:15.756 is special. I know this will end. This is what 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:18.036 I wanted, this is what I didn't want to miss 0:08:18.676 --> 0:08:22.436 right now, this feeling I had no pressures on me, 0:08:22.876 --> 0:08:27.636 they had no preschool, and oh god, it was so great. 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:31.956 And then the other thing is all these super surprising moments, 0:08:31.996 --> 0:08:36.516 like a crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the 0:08:36.636 --> 0:08:40.236 mail and saying, what is this? And I was like, 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:43.676 oh my god, it's your last name. That's your last name. 0:08:44.556 --> 0:08:46.556 And she was like, what's a last name. I'm like, 0:08:46.636 --> 0:08:49.036 oh my god, this is I could not have seen 0:08:49.076 --> 0:08:51.676 this coming, Like, of course someone has to tell you 0:08:52.116 --> 0:08:54.316 that there's such a thing as a last name, and 0:08:54.356 --> 0:08:56.236 this is what yours is, and this is what the 0:08:56.316 --> 0:08:58.316 letters are, and this is the order you write them in, 0:08:58.356 --> 0:09:01.596 and this is how you do it. And so I 0:09:01.636 --> 0:09:05.596 remember writing in my journal that night I taught Georgia 0:09:05.676 --> 0:09:08.836 her last name. Today, you wrote in the New York 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:13.396 Time that before our children become themselves, when they are 0:09:13.436 --> 0:09:17.556 more physical than intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece 0:09:17.596 --> 0:09:20.996 by piece. The way he sits like his dad, the 0:09:21.036 --> 0:09:24.396 furrow of her brow so much like her mom's, her 0:09:24.476 --> 0:09:28.996 flat feet, his luscious eyelashes just like Granpa's. I wonder, 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:32.876 how did you quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was 0:09:32.916 --> 0:09:36.716 your version of this? Georgia makes this very funny face 0:09:36.796 --> 0:09:40.396 when she's reading or concentrating that sort of looks like 0:09:40.476 --> 0:09:44.396 she's angry, and it is exactly what Edward looks like 0:09:44.436 --> 0:09:48.116 when he's concentrating. So this little knot in her brow 0:09:49.076 --> 0:09:56.036 is Edwards. It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, 0:09:56.196 --> 0:09:59.916 I mean, it runs deeper than their physical traits. It 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:05.316 seems like, I mean, I really want to understand when 0:10:05.316 --> 0:10:08.956 you say we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that 0:10:09.116 --> 0:10:11.236 for me and what that means. What does it mean 0:10:11.276 --> 0:10:13.876 to claim children? And like, what does that do to 0:10:13.876 --> 0:10:17.956 our own psychology as parents? Well, I think it's super 0:10:18.036 --> 0:10:21.396 dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded, and I think it's 0:10:21.436 --> 0:10:24.716 probably really common. I remember the first time Claire saw 0:10:24.756 --> 0:10:27.956 the ocean. We were driving in San Diego and we 0:10:28.076 --> 0:10:32.756 pulled over and she ran straight for the water, and 0:10:32.796 --> 0:10:36.076 then instantly like, instead of letting that just be hers, 0:10:37.196 --> 0:10:39.596 it was like, ah, she's just like you, dward, she's 0:10:39.596 --> 0:10:44.316 a swimmer, and it's like or or she's just her 0:10:44.396 --> 0:10:48.116 and she's having a great moment. And I think because 0:10:48.676 --> 0:10:53.116 uncertainty is so intolerable and because we're narrative making machines, 0:10:54.756 --> 0:11:01.156 that it's quite common and probably misleading that we might 0:11:01.516 --> 0:11:07.556 see a kid's personality trait and decide without even knowing 0:11:07.596 --> 0:11:12.476 we're doing it. This is because blank like either it's 0:11:12.516 --> 0:11:14.596 because you are the way you are, your husband is 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:18.676 the way they are, they're your grandparents, something about their 0:11:18.716 --> 0:11:23.356 sibling or some moment that you observed, and so you're 0:11:23.396 --> 0:11:29.116 always like deconstructing your kid's behavior and tagging it. And 0:11:29.196 --> 0:11:35.836 I don't think that's to anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:41.756 like we are dying to understand. We are eager to 0:11:42.556 --> 0:11:46.356 make sense of our children's moods and their behaviors and 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:52.676 what they do that's problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, 0:11:53.236 --> 0:11:56.156 and what they do that's spectacular that we can't wait 0:11:56.156 --> 0:12:00.276 to tell our friends they did, and kind of attribute 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:04.596 that to people, because like, who wants to say, I 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:08.076 don't know, Yeah, I don't know why she does that. Yeah, 0:12:08.796 --> 0:12:12.156 Like it's the very first thing you do is try 0:12:12.196 --> 0:12:16.196 to figure out why. When was the first time it 0:12:16.196 --> 0:12:19.796 occurred to you, Kelly that your kids were doing things 0:12:20.036 --> 0:12:22.156 or learning things that you were not a part of. 0:12:23.196 --> 0:12:25.996 So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:28.516 name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and 0:12:28.596 --> 0:12:31.476 Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:33.876 of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:37.276 house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable, 0:12:37.516 --> 0:12:40.196 and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them 0:12:40.236 --> 0:12:42.276 a little cookies and taking them out for a swim 0:12:42.316 --> 0:12:44.796 and whatever. All of this is sort of unknown to me. 0:12:45.116 --> 0:12:47.756 I'm just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, 0:12:47.876 --> 0:12:50.916 she loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. 0:12:51.716 --> 0:12:54.716 And fast forward like a year and a half. We're 0:12:54.716 --> 0:12:58.676 on a little family walk and this woman pulled over 0:12:58.916 --> 0:13:03.516 in her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia, 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:08.796 And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid? 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:12.996 There is no way that she could know someone that 0:13:13.116 --> 0:13:16.276 I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she 0:13:16.316 --> 0:13:18.876 doesn't even know words I didn't tell her, Like I'm 0:13:18.916 --> 0:13:21.156 doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know 0:13:21.156 --> 0:13:23.316 what she wore, I know who she talked to. I 0:13:23.356 --> 0:13:25.716 know what words she can use, I know what letters 0:13:25.756 --> 0:13:27.996 she can write, I know what books she's read. And 0:13:27.996 --> 0:13:30.356 this is probably why it's so hard to pull your 0:13:30.356 --> 0:13:32.916 hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and 0:13:32.956 --> 0:13:36.236 that moment lasts for several years where you actually do 0:13:36.476 --> 0:13:42.076 know every single input in another person's life because you're involved, 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:45.036 you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it. You're 0:13:45.036 --> 0:13:47.196 talking about the early years, like the first few years, 0:13:47.196 --> 0:13:50.956 the early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia, 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:53.716 and I was like, this is so weird. And I 0:13:53.756 --> 0:13:56.036 was like, Hi, I'm George's mom. And I remember hearing 0:13:56.036 --> 0:13:59.596 myself say I'm Georgie's mom and thinking, oh, this is 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:02.676 this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning 0:14:02.676 --> 0:14:06.836 of me in the world as just George's mom. Yeah. 0:14:06.876 --> 0:14:09.316 And I'm assuming as your girls got older that you 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:11.756 got more and more of these examples of how their 0:14:11.796 --> 0:14:15.996 lives were growing independently of yours. Well, I mean, it's 0:14:16.156 --> 0:14:20.036 very interesting to be told what your child can and 0:14:20.116 --> 0:14:23.956 cannot do by any number of teachers, and there's often 0:14:24.036 --> 0:14:26.636 moments of surprise there, so you're either like waiting for 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:30.916 them to confirm all of your impressions. But if you're 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.196 doing a good job, if you really have your mind 0:14:34.236 --> 0:14:37.996 wide open, you'll hear things that you think I didn't 0:14:38.036 --> 0:14:40.756 know that about her. I didn't know she loved math, 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:44.956 or in the reverse. I remember this teacher of George's 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:48.396 in high school said, George's like a great science student, 0:14:48.476 --> 0:14:51.516 like she understands everything. And I said to Georgia, god, 0:14:51.636 --> 0:14:53.596 you love science, and she said, oh no, I don't 0:14:53.596 --> 0:14:57.596 love science. I'm just good at science. And I was like, 0:14:57.676 --> 0:15:02.876 oh right. Like again, there's this like fine parsing where 0:15:02.996 --> 0:15:07.476 your category making machine of a brain is like A 0:15:07.636 --> 0:15:10.916 plus B equal C, and she's like, no, aplus vehicles D. 0:15:12.076 --> 0:15:15.636 What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:17.836 to you that you either didn't know something about your 0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:21.676 daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:24.476 was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them. 0:15:25.076 --> 0:15:28.836 Sometimes thrilling, Sometimes it was a little moment of awe, 0:15:29.156 --> 0:15:31.996 like this is cool, like watching a great movie or 0:15:32.036 --> 0:15:35.676 reading a great book when you're surprised. Yea. And sometimes 0:15:35.676 --> 0:15:37.756 it was maddening because I was sure that I was 0:15:37.876 --> 0:15:40.076 right and the person was wrong, and then they had 0:15:40.116 --> 0:15:41.956 some influence in their life and I didn't want that. 0:15:43.116 --> 0:15:51.436 Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think 0:15:51.436 --> 0:15:54.396 there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving. 0:15:55.636 --> 0:16:00.156 It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they 0:16:00.156 --> 0:16:04.756 get older. Yeah, when it came to their transition to college, 0:16:04.796 --> 0:16:08.236 and I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because, 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:10.516 like you said, when when your kids are living under 0:16:10.556 --> 0:16:12.636 your roof, even if they don't share everything with you, 0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:15.436 you still get so much access to their lives just 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:19.196 through mere exposure, right, Like you might see them interact 0:16:19.196 --> 0:16:21.316 with their friends after school, or you might know their 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:23.996 or you will know their calendar of activities because you're 0:16:24.036 --> 0:16:26.956 doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least 0:16:26.956 --> 0:16:30.116 have this illusion that you have access to a large 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.196 chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:38.316 content of their lives is being withheld from you. And 0:16:38.396 --> 0:16:41.916 so at some point you had to deal with physically 0:16:41.956 --> 0:16:44.156 separating from your kids when they went off to school. 0:16:44.676 --> 0:16:47.796 And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for 0:16:47.916 --> 0:16:50.076 me of what it was like to drop your younger 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:55.436 daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester. Well, 0:16:55.476 --> 0:17:00.236 it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before, and 0:17:00.276 --> 0:17:04.356 when I was taking her the night before, we had 0:17:04.396 --> 0:17:06.876 gone to pick up step at Target or whatever. And 0:17:06.916 --> 0:17:10.876 she goes tomorrow, when you wrought me off, know me, 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:16.476 just know me, know who I am and what my 0:17:16.516 --> 0:17:20.356 preferences are. That's basically what she was saying, exactly, put 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:23.396 me first. And I was like, I get it. You 0:17:23.396 --> 0:17:25.956 don't want a scene, you don't want tears, you don't 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:28.396 want me talking to people. Just take the stuff in, 0:17:28.836 --> 0:17:31.196 drop it off, give her a hug, and get out 0:17:31.196 --> 0:17:33.276 of there. And I was like, I got this, I 0:17:33.316 --> 0:17:35.596 can do this, and I think I did all right. 0:17:35.596 --> 0:17:36.796 I mean, you'd have to ask her, but I think 0:17:36.796 --> 0:17:39.356 I did fine. So fast forward two years. I have 0:17:39.436 --> 0:17:42.756 to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is 0:17:42.796 --> 0:17:49.676 also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like ours, naughty, weeping, 0:17:50.156 --> 0:17:56.076 shaking moment. I can't even talk about it now. In 0:17:56.196 --> 0:18:03.076 the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like 0:18:03.196 --> 0:18:13.356 can I just let this all out? And basically what 0:18:13.396 --> 0:18:16.916 I was feeling is this is the part of life 0:18:16.916 --> 0:18:20.316 that I was looking forward to the most, and today 0:18:20.596 --> 0:18:23.996 is the end of it. And there will be great things, 0:18:24.156 --> 0:18:28.076 of course, so much good work to do, so many 0:18:28.076 --> 0:18:31.236 people to love and help I get it. But this 0:18:31.316 --> 0:18:35.396 is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever. 0:18:35.556 --> 0:18:39.476 We're never going back. And would you just mind if 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:43.116 I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes 0:18:43.516 --> 0:18:45.236 and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:48.196 that van and we'll go load up your room and 0:18:48.236 --> 0:18:50.916 I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and 0:18:51.036 --> 0:18:55.836 so I just held her and then we went. It 0:18:55.876 --> 0:18:59.436 went so fast like it you know, it's because the car, 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:02.236 like the blinkers are one, and when you pull up, 0:19:02.316 --> 0:19:04.836 there's a nice person with a clipboard and then like hi, 0:19:05.316 --> 0:19:07.636 you know you're in room three eighteen and you have 0:19:07.836 --> 0:19:11.036 thirty eight minutes to move this car, and so the 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:14.356 blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:16.556 and you're going up and down the stairs and then 0:19:16.596 --> 0:19:20.796 it's over. And I was like hi, and honestly, Like, 0:19:20.836 --> 0:19:22.916 I know I probably sound like a crazy person, but 0:19:24.156 --> 0:19:27.236 I knew what was happening, and I was right. It 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:30.156 is different. It is over, like that part is over 0:19:30.396 --> 0:19:32.236 and it's fine, Like I mean to have a great 0:19:32.796 --> 0:19:38.476 forty years, but there's no denying that, Like the big 0:19:38.556 --> 0:19:42.996 page has been turned and I'm something else now to them, 0:19:43.156 --> 0:19:46.876 I'm something different. I mean, you stand around with a 0:19:46.876 --> 0:19:51.716 bunch of moms on the playground and someone says their 0:19:51.756 --> 0:19:56.076 mom's coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how 0:19:56.156 --> 0:20:01.836 long she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind 0:20:01.876 --> 0:20:05.996 of where you end up, is that you're slightly like 0:20:06.556 --> 0:20:10.596 I love her, but like, yeah, three nine, that's where 0:20:10.796 --> 0:20:15.676 this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but 0:20:15.796 --> 0:20:18.476 feel it. I couldn't help it see it in its totality, 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:24.476 and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging 0:20:24.636 --> 0:20:31.556 that this is real. We'll be back in a moment 0:20:31.676 --> 0:20:44.516 with a slight change of plans. When Kelly Corrigan's daughters 0:20:44.556 --> 0:20:47.196 moved away to college, she was eager to stay involved 0:20:47.196 --> 0:20:50.156 in their lives, but her daughters were busy getting to 0:20:50.156 --> 0:20:53.156 know their new environment and figuring things out for themselves, 0:20:53.956 --> 0:20:56.836 and so when Kelly did connect with them, she would 0:20:56.876 --> 0:21:01.076 only receive small glimpses into their lives. This is when 0:21:01.076 --> 0:21:03.116 the rubber hits the road, I think, is when your 0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:05.316 kid moves out and you don't have eyes on them anymore. 0:21:05.676 --> 0:21:08.876 So you don't have a way to know their life 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:11.836 and their moods and their wellbeing. You're not able to 0:21:11.876 --> 0:21:14.876 assess their well being with your own eyes. You can't 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:17.156 hear the tone of their voice, you can't see their posture, 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:19.636 you can't see whether they're eating or not eating, whether 0:21:19.676 --> 0:21:22.196 they went for a run or stay in bed. It's 0:21:22.196 --> 0:21:24.356 like a big black box and all you have are 0:21:24.396 --> 0:21:29.116 these tiny conversations where like four twelve on Tuesday, they 0:21:29.156 --> 0:21:32.076 might be in a great mood, and at four thirty 0:21:32.076 --> 0:21:35.996 on Tuesday, long after the call is over, something horrible happens. 0:21:36.516 --> 0:21:38.476 But until you talk to them again, you're still in 0:21:38.516 --> 0:21:41.316 four twelve Tuesday mode, where you're like, and people ask 0:21:41.396 --> 0:21:43.316 all the time. Wherever you go, people say how are 0:21:43.356 --> 0:21:45.836 your kids? And whatever they've told you on four twelve 0:21:45.876 --> 0:21:49.996 on Tuesday, you're like, she's great, She's awesome. And conversely, 0:21:50.796 --> 0:21:53.876 if you catch them on nine am on Saturday morning 0:21:54.596 --> 0:21:58.356 and they're terrible. Then they are terrible until the next 0:21:58.396 --> 0:22:00.396 time you talk to them and hear the spark back 0:22:00.396 --> 0:22:03.716 in their voice. When it came to the transition of college, 0:22:03.716 --> 0:22:06.476 one thing that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were 0:22:06.676 --> 0:22:12.436 given guidance by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, 0:22:13.036 --> 0:22:15.676 now's your time to back the f off right, like 0:22:15.716 --> 0:22:17.876 there or something like that. Tell me more about that. 0:22:17.876 --> 0:22:19.796 That was so interesting to me and so shocking and 0:22:19.836 --> 0:22:22.276 like not at all what happened, for example, when I 0:22:22.316 --> 0:22:24.036 was off to college. If no one is even thinking 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:27.276 through this lens of child development and individuation or any 0:22:27.276 --> 0:22:30.476 of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, So Claire goes to University 0:22:30.516 --> 0:22:34.996 of Virginia and the day of drop off, there was 0:22:35.036 --> 0:22:37.476 a letter sent to all the parents of the freshman 0:22:37.516 --> 0:22:41.516 class and it said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, 0:22:42.116 --> 0:22:45.196 and then it said, here's a note from our one 0:22:45.196 --> 0:22:47.796 of the people that works in our counseling office on campus. 0:22:48.956 --> 0:22:51.716 It is not okay for you to be texting your 0:22:51.796 --> 0:22:55.996 kid multiple times every day. The best thing you could 0:22:56.036 --> 0:22:58.196 do for them is to stand back a little bit 0:22:58.636 --> 0:23:02.996 and let them get into some kind of groove. Because 0:23:03.476 --> 0:23:06.156 as soon as you say to somebody, how's it going. 0:23:06.956 --> 0:23:09.596 The true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's 0:23:09.596 --> 0:23:12.196 going to take me eight weeks to tell you how 0:23:12.196 --> 0:23:15.116 it's going. As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to 0:23:15.196 --> 0:23:18.916 confirm this. But I feel like once you label something 0:23:19.396 --> 0:23:22.636 that it takes on greater meaning, Like that language and 0:23:22.716 --> 0:23:25.436 thoughts and feelings are all kind of linked in this 0:23:25.476 --> 0:23:29.356 way that if she's if I make her say it's good, 0:23:29.636 --> 0:23:32.276 it's bad, I like it, I don't like it. How's 0:23:32.276 --> 0:23:36.036 your roommate she's okay. Then all of a sudden, that 0:23:36.156 --> 0:23:42.476 framing takes on added power to define what happens next. 0:23:43.036 --> 0:23:46.356 And that's such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, 0:23:46.756 --> 0:23:48.836 leave your kids alone. Let them drive. If they want 0:23:48.876 --> 0:23:51.676 to contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond 0:23:51.676 --> 0:23:56.796 to your kid within like sixty seconds. Yeah, I'm just 0:23:56.916 --> 0:24:00.956 laughing this moment. Thinking back to when I felt this transition. 0:24:01.236 --> 0:24:03.116 I think it was in college at some point where 0:24:03.436 --> 0:24:05.476 you know, my parents were so available to me when 0:24:05.476 --> 0:24:07.796 I was in high school and in college. I went 0:24:07.796 --> 0:24:09.356 to college close by to where they live, so I'd 0:24:09.356 --> 0:24:10.836 still seen them a bunch, but I remember I would 0:24:10.876 --> 0:24:12.996 call my mom or dad and they were just too 0:24:12.996 --> 0:24:16.196 busy for me. My mom's like, I'm sorry, I'm helping 0:24:16.356 --> 0:24:18.596 people get green cards to study in this country, and 0:24:18.636 --> 0:24:21.356 my dad's like, I'm in the middle of the physics equation, 0:24:21.676 --> 0:24:24.036 you know. And I just remember thinking it was actually 0:24:24.596 --> 0:24:28.436 amazing in that moment to feel like a little bit 0:24:28.436 --> 0:24:30.796 of that lifeline was cut off, because it meant that 0:24:31.116 --> 0:24:33.116 I was on my own a bit, right, and I 0:24:33.196 --> 0:24:35.076 just had to kind of figure stuff out myself. And 0:24:35.116 --> 0:24:38.356 I never really thought about that until this moment, And 0:24:38.436 --> 0:24:41.636