1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:32,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I know exactly what she ate, I know what 2 00:00:32,156 --> 00:00:34,276 Speaker 1: she wore, I know who she talked to, I know 3 00:00:34,316 --> 00:00:36,636 Speaker 1: what words she can use, I know what letters she 4 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:39,196 Speaker 1: can write, I know what books she's read. Like there's 5 00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:41,556 Speaker 1: a moment there, and that moment lasts for several years 6 00:00:41,956 --> 00:00:46,636 Speaker 1: where you actually do know every single input in another 7 00:00:46,676 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 1: person's life. Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. 8 00:00:51,716 --> 00:00:54,796 Speaker 1: She also knew this would change that as her daughters 9 00:00:54,796 --> 00:00:58,236 Speaker 1: got older and became more independent, Kelly would know less 10 00:00:58,276 --> 00:01:01,516 Speaker 1: and less about their lives. But while Kelly knew this 11 00:01:01,636 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 1: transition was inevitable, she still felt a tidal wave of 12 00:01:05,476 --> 00:01:10,196 Speaker 1: emotions when it actually happened. I alternate between this very 13 00:01:10,276 --> 00:01:14,876 Speaker 1: mature acknowledgement that like, this is how it goes, this 14 00:01:14,956 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: is the relationship, this is the job, and the job 15 00:01:17,796 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 1: is more or less done. And I had a lot 16 00:01:20,276 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 1: of conversations with a lot of friends about like, can 17 00:01:24,756 --> 00:01:29,716 Speaker 1: you believe this is the way the story goes? Wow? Wow, 18 00:01:30,036 --> 00:01:36,076 Speaker 1: what an ending on today's show, how one woman's parenting 19 00:01:36,116 --> 00:01:39,916 Speaker 1: journey went exactly according to plan and still left her 20 00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:51,836 Speaker 1: reeling I'm maya shunker and this is a slight change 21 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:54,476 Speaker 1: of plans a show about who we are and who 22 00:01:54,476 --> 00:02:10,036 Speaker 1: we become in the face of the big change. Adolescence 23 00:02:10,156 --> 00:02:13,516 Speaker 1: is a time of incredible change for kids and the 24 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:17,156 Speaker 1: people who care for them. Neuroscience studies show that when 25 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:20,876 Speaker 1: we become teenagers, our brains undergo changes that drive us 26 00:02:20,916 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 1: towards more independence. While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, 27 00:02:26,516 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 1: it can be pretty gut wrenching for parents. Kelly writes 28 00:02:30,476 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 1: unflinchingly about these kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, 29 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: written as a letter to her daughters, is about the 30 00:02:38,436 --> 00:02:42,276 Speaker 1: emotional hazards of raising children, and her memoir The Middle 31 00:02:42,276 --> 00:02:46,316 Speaker 1: Place touches on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents 32 00:02:46,396 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 1: and their children. She also hosts a podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, 33 00:02:51,196 --> 00:02:54,556 Speaker 1: where she often talks about parenthood and family life, like 34 00:02:54,636 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 1: her conversation with writer Susan or Lean on empty Nesting. 35 00:02:58,836 --> 00:03:01,876 Speaker 1: Parenthood has been on my mind a lot lately. I've 36 00:03:01,876 --> 00:03:04,756 Speaker 1: been seeing my parents get older, and my husband Jimmy, 37 00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:08,036 Speaker 1: and I are wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, 38 00:03:08,156 --> 00:03:11,996 Speaker 1: will still try and become parents. So Kelly's story has 39 00:03:12,076 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: raised some big questions for me, like what do a 40 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: parent and child owe each other, and how does this 41 00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:21,996 Speaker 1: relationship evolve over time. Of course, we'll all have different 42 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,436 Speaker 1: answers to these questions. You'll hear my own surprise at 43 00:03:25,476 --> 00:03:29,236 Speaker 1: several points in this conversation. My parents are immigrants, and 44 00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:31,836 Speaker 1: they raised my three siblings in me with a mixture 45 00:03:32,036 --> 00:03:35,516 Speaker 1: of Indian and American values, which means Kelly and I 46 00:03:35,596 --> 00:03:40,076 Speaker 1: have different perspectives. But regardless of our particular views, Kelly 47 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:42,516 Speaker 1: showed me just how valuable it can be to ask 48 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 1: ourselves these questions in the first place. Okay, now into 49 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:50,116 Speaker 1: my conversation with Kelly, I started by asking her why 50 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:53,036 Speaker 1: she wanted to have kids. I don't think I ever 51 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:55,156 Speaker 1: had a conscious moment where it was like, oh, I 52 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: definitely want to be a mother. I don't think I 53 00:03:57,716 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: ever had a change of heart. It was just totally 54 00:04:00,716 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 1: woven in from the jump. And I'm not a particularly 55 00:04:05,516 --> 00:04:10,236 Speaker 1: sweet person, like I wouldn't say that I'm huge nice 56 00:04:11,436 --> 00:04:14,996 Speaker 1: or patient. I'm not a good cook. I always run late, 57 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 1: I forget a lot of things. I am not good 58 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,156 Speaker 1: with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic element to parenting that 59 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 1: I would give myself like a d So it wasn't 60 00:04:25,596 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 1: that I thought I was going to be particularly good 61 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:31,516 Speaker 1: at it in those superficial ways of like managing a family. 62 00:04:32,836 --> 00:04:37,796 Speaker 1: But what I wanted, what I craved, what I couldn't 63 00:04:37,876 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 1: wait to be a part of, was the intimacy. And 64 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:46,076 Speaker 1: it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary, Like there is not 65 00:04:46,636 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 1: in my life experience comparable relationships outside of the family frame. 66 00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 1: He use the word intimacy, Kelly, and I'm trying to 67 00:04:56,156 --> 00:05:02,956 Speaker 1: figure out what that word means to you in this context. Yeah, well, 68 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:05,796 Speaker 1: it's interesting. When we were growing up outside of Philadelphia, 69 00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:09,836 Speaker 1: we only had one window unit air conditioner, and in 70 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:11,796 Speaker 1: the summer, you know, it's like one hundred degrees, it's 71 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 1: so high you've bug bites up and down your whole body. 72 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 1: And one by one, my older brothers and I would 73 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 1: walk down the hall and go to sleep on my parents' floor, 74 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:23,076 Speaker 1: so that when we woke up every day in the summer, 75 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:25,596 Speaker 1: I'd have like Get's foot in my face and Booker's 76 00:05:25,596 --> 00:05:27,836 Speaker 1: foot in my belly, and like we were just kind 77 00:05:27,836 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 1: of in there together. I love that, And I loved 78 00:05:31,796 --> 00:05:34,436 Speaker 1: that we didn't ever get central air conditioning. I loved 79 00:05:34,476 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 1: it that that was the only way was to share 80 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,356 Speaker 1: this air together all night long and breathe all over 81 00:05:40,396 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 1: each other, and you know, people are bourbon and farting, 82 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:46,356 Speaker 1: and it's kind of hilarious because you can only do 83 00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:49,676 Speaker 1: it with so few people. Yeah. You know, if anything 84 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:51,396 Speaker 1: that you can only do with like a handful of 85 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:56,116 Speaker 1: people your whole life, like, that's just got to be significant. Yeah. 86 00:05:56,196 --> 00:05:59,036 Speaker 1: I so resonate with this intimacy concept, And I think 87 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:02,716 Speaker 1: until now I hadn't really thought about the physical component 88 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:05,356 Speaker 1: of just being present with one another in all of 89 00:06:05,396 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 1: these bland moments that are totally lacking in significins, except 90 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:12,196 Speaker 1: in the aggregate, they add up to a kind of 91 00:06:12,196 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when 92 00:06:16,156 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 1: we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the 93 00:06:19,596 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 1: kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection 94 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:27,396 Speaker 1: and that kind of physical closeness and proximity. So I'm 95 00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:30,156 Speaker 1: just thinking back to when I remember in seventh grade, 96 00:06:30,196 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 1: my family of six we went on a cruise and 97 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 1: it was like the most exciting thing that right family 98 00:06:35,596 --> 00:06:36,556 Speaker 1: was ever going to do. We went on one of 99 00:06:36,556 --> 00:06:40,196 Speaker 1: these like whatever carnival cruises or something, and my parents 100 00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 1: treated themselves to like the nice view of the ocean room, 101 00:06:43,996 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 1: and us four kids were put into this little box 102 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:50,516 Speaker 1: with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my 103 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: favorite thing in the whole world. Like we still weren't 104 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 1: close enough in that little box together, because I just 105 00:06:57,236 --> 00:07:01,636 Speaker 1: found it intoxicating to be so close to these people 106 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: who I loved. Yes, exactly. So you ended up having 107 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:10,476 Speaker 1: two daughters, Georgia and Claire, And I'm curious to know 108 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:14,236 Speaker 1: whether in the early years your expectations of mom lined 109 00:07:14,316 --> 00:07:17,356 Speaker 1: up with reality. So I mean it went off the 110 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: rails fairly quickly because when Claire was one and Georgia 111 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:25,036 Speaker 1: was two, I got diagnosed with stage three cancer and 112 00:07:25,076 --> 00:07:29,276 Speaker 1: I was in chemotherapy, and so everything was up in 113 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 1: the air. I did surgery, then I did another surgery, 114 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 1: then I had my ovaries removed. Then I did a 115 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 1: whole other year of chemotherapy, and then it was like 116 00:07:36,076 --> 00:07:39,516 Speaker 1: really finally over about maybe eighteen months after it started. 117 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 1: And then you have to come all the way back 118 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,516 Speaker 1: down into your life again. And then it did start 119 00:07:46,556 --> 00:07:50,676 Speaker 1: to feel like this is what I wanted in particular. 120 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 1: Two things. One is my husband Edward got up super early. 121 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:57,316 Speaker 1: He left at six o'clock and then at six zo one. 122 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:00,596 Speaker 1: When the door closed, Claire would pad over and jump 123 00:08:00,676 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 1: in on one side, and at six thirty Georgia would 124 00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:05,596 Speaker 1: pad over and get in on the other side. And 125 00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:08,556 Speaker 1: there was nowhere we had to be, and they were 126 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 1: just on me. And I remember thinking, I know this 127 00:08:12,916 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: is special. I know this will end. This is what 128 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 1: I wanted, this is what I didn't want to miss 129 00:08:18,676 --> 00:08:22,436 Speaker 1: right now, this feeling I had no pressures on me, 130 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:27,636 Speaker 1: they had no preschool, and oh god, it was so great. 131 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 1: And then the other thing is all these super surprising moments, 132 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:36,516 Speaker 1: like a crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the 133 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:40,236 Speaker 1: mail and saying, what is this? And I was like, 134 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:43,676 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's your last name. That's your last name. 135 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:46,556 Speaker 1: And she was like, what's a last name. I'm like, 136 00:08:46,636 --> 00:08:49,036 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is I could not have seen 137 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:51,676 Speaker 1: this coming, Like, of course someone has to tell you 138 00:08:52,116 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 1: that there's such a thing as a last name, and 139 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 1: this is what yours is, and this is what the 140 00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 1: letters are, and this is the order you write them in, 141 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:01,596 Speaker 1: and this is how you do it. And so I 142 00:09:01,636 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 1: remember writing in my journal that night I taught Georgia 143 00:09:05,676 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 1: her last name. Today, you wrote in the New York 144 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:13,396 Speaker 1: Time that before our children become themselves, when they are 145 00:09:13,436 --> 00:09:17,556 Speaker 1: more physical than intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece 146 00:09:17,596 --> 00:09:20,996 Speaker 1: by piece. The way he sits like his dad, the 147 00:09:21,036 --> 00:09:24,396 Speaker 1: furrow of her brow so much like her mom's, her 148 00:09:24,476 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 1: flat feet, his luscious eyelashes just like Granpa's. I wonder, 149 00:09:29,116 --> 00:09:32,876 Speaker 1: how did you quote claim Georgia and Claire? What was 150 00:09:32,916 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 1: your version of this? Georgia makes this very funny face 151 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:40,396 Speaker 1: when she's reading or concentrating that sort of looks like 152 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:44,396 Speaker 1: she's angry, and it is exactly what Edward looks like 153 00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:48,116 Speaker 1: when he's concentrating. So this little knot in her brow 154 00:09:49,076 --> 00:09:56,036 Speaker 1: is Edwards. It feels like this idea of claiming our kids, 155 00:09:56,196 --> 00:09:59,916 Speaker 1: I mean, it runs deeper than their physical traits. It 156 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, I really want to understand when 157 00:10:05,316 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 1: you say we claim them piece by piece. Unpack that 158 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:11,236 Speaker 1: for me and what that means. What does it mean 159 00:10:11,276 --> 00:10:13,876 Speaker 1: to claim children? And like, what does that do to 160 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:17,956 Speaker 1: our own psychology as parents? Well, I think it's super 161 00:10:18,036 --> 00:10:21,396 Speaker 1: dangerous and I think it's wrongheaded, and I think it's 162 00:10:21,436 --> 00:10:24,716 Speaker 1: probably really common. I remember the first time Claire saw 163 00:10:24,756 --> 00:10:27,956 Speaker 1: the ocean. We were driving in San Diego and we 164 00:10:28,076 --> 00:10:32,756 Speaker 1: pulled over and she ran straight for the water, and 165 00:10:32,796 --> 00:10:36,076 Speaker 1: then instantly like, instead of letting that just be hers, 166 00:10:37,196 --> 00:10:39,596 Speaker 1: it was like, ah, she's just like you, dward, she's 167 00:10:39,596 --> 00:10:44,316 Speaker 1: a swimmer, and it's like or or she's just her 168 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 1: and she's having a great moment. And I think because 169 00:10:48,676 --> 00:10:53,116 Speaker 1: uncertainty is so intolerable and because we're narrative making machines, 170 00:10:54,756 --> 00:11:01,156 Speaker 1: that it's quite common and probably misleading that we might 171 00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 1: see a kid's personality trait and decide without even knowing 172 00:11:07,596 --> 00:11:12,476 Speaker 1: we're doing it. This is because blank like either it's 173 00:11:12,516 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: because you are the way you are, your husband is 174 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:18,676 Speaker 1: the way they are, they're your grandparents, something about their 175 00:11:18,716 --> 00:11:23,356 Speaker 1: sibling or some moment that you observed, and so you're 176 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:29,116 Speaker 1: always like deconstructing your kid's behavior and tagging it. And 177 00:11:29,196 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 1: I don't think that's to anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable, 178 00:11:36,836 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 1: like we are dying to understand. We are eager to 179 00:11:42,556 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 1: make sense of our children's moods and their behaviors and 180 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:52,676 Speaker 1: what they do that's problematic or self defeating or self sabotaging, 181 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: and what they do that's spectacular that we can't wait 182 00:11:56,156 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 1: to tell our friends they did, and kind of attribute 183 00:12:00,316 --> 00:12:04,596 Speaker 1: that to people, because like, who wants to say, I 184 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:08,076 Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, I don't know why she does that. Yeah, 185 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: Like it's the very first thing you do is try 186 00:12:12,196 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 1: to figure out why. When was the first time it 187 00:12:16,196 --> 00:12:19,796 Speaker 1: occurred to you, Kelly that your kids were doing things 188 00:12:20,036 --> 00:12:22,156 Speaker 1: or learning things that you were not a part of. 189 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 1: So these girls of mine had this incredible babysit Her 190 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:28,516 Speaker 1: name was Sophie, and Sophie had this boyfriend, Joel, and 191 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:31,476 Speaker 1: Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care 192 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:33,876 Speaker 1: of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's 193 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:37,276 Speaker 1: house and Joel's mom was there, and the girls are adorable, 194 00:12:37,516 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 1: and so the mom was enjoying them and giving them 195 00:12:40,236 --> 00:12:42,276 Speaker 1: a little cookies and taking them out for a swim 196 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: and whatever. All of this is sort of unknown to me. 197 00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: I'm just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, 198 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:50,916 Speaker 1: she loves them. So it was a beautiful babysitting relationship. 199 00:12:51,716 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 1: And fast forward like a year and a half. We're 200 00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 1: on a little family walk and this woman pulled over 201 00:12:58,916 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: in her car and rolled down the window and said, Hi, Georgia, 202 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 1: And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid? 203 00:13:09,556 --> 00:13:12,996 Speaker 1: There is no way that she could know someone that 204 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:16,276 Speaker 1: I didn't introduce her to, like she's too little, she 205 00:13:16,316 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: doesn't even know words I didn't tell her, Like I'm 206 00:13:18,916 --> 00:13:21,156 Speaker 1: doing everything. I know exactly what she ate, I know 207 00:13:21,156 --> 00:13:23,316 Speaker 1: what she wore, I know who she talked to. I 208 00:13:23,356 --> 00:13:25,716 Speaker 1: know what words she can use, I know what letters 209 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:27,996 Speaker 1: she can write, I know what books she's read. And 210 00:13:27,996 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 1: this is probably why it's so hard to pull your 211 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and 212 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:36,236 Speaker 1: that moment lasts for several years where you actually do 213 00:13:36,476 --> 00:13:42,076 Speaker 1: know every single input in another person's life because you're involved, 214 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:45,036 Speaker 1: you're doing it, you're managing it, you're facilitating it. You're 215 00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:47,196 Speaker 1: talking about the early years, like the first few years, 216 00:13:47,196 --> 00:13:50,956 Speaker 1: the early early years. Yeah, and then this lady was like, hi, Georgia, 217 00:13:51,196 --> 00:13:53,716 Speaker 1: and I was like, this is so weird. And I 218 00:13:53,756 --> 00:13:56,036 Speaker 1: was like, Hi, I'm George's mom. And I remember hearing 219 00:13:56,036 --> 00:13:59,596 Speaker 1: myself say I'm Georgie's mom and thinking, oh, this is 220 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 1: this is the beginning of this, This is the beginning 221 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:06,836 Speaker 1: of me in the world as just George's mom. Yeah. 222 00:14:06,876 --> 00:14:09,316 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming as your girls got older that you 223 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:11,756 Speaker 1: got more and more of these examples of how their 224 00:14:11,796 --> 00:14:15,996 Speaker 1: lives were growing independently of yours. Well, I mean, it's 225 00:14:16,156 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 1: very interesting to be told what your child can and 226 00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 1: cannot do by any number of teachers, and there's often 227 00:14:24,036 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: moments of surprise there, so you're either like waiting for 228 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:30,916 Speaker 1: them to confirm all of your impressions. But if you're 229 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: doing a good job, if you really have your mind 230 00:14:34,236 --> 00:14:37,996 Speaker 1: wide open, you'll hear things that you think I didn't 231 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:40,756 Speaker 1: know that about her. I didn't know she loved math, 232 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:44,956 Speaker 1: or in the reverse. I remember this teacher of George's 233 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: in high school said, George's like a great science student, 234 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:51,516 Speaker 1: like she understands everything. And I said to Georgia, god, 235 00:14:51,636 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: you love science, and she said, oh no, I don't 236 00:14:53,596 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 1: love science. I'm just good at science. And I was like, 237 00:14:57,676 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 1: oh right. Like again, there's this like fine parsing where 238 00:15:02,996 --> 00:15:07,476 Speaker 1: your category making machine of a brain is like A 239 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 1: plus B equal C, and she's like, no, aplus vehicles D. 240 00:15:12,076 --> 00:15:15,636 Speaker 1: What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed 241 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: to you that you either didn't know something about your 242 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them 243 00:15:21,796 --> 00:15:24,476 Speaker 1: was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them. 244 00:15:25,076 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 1: Sometimes thrilling, Sometimes it was a little moment of awe, 245 00:15:29,156 --> 00:15:31,996 Speaker 1: like this is cool, like watching a great movie or 246 00:15:32,036 --> 00:15:35,676 Speaker 1: reading a great book when you're surprised. Yea. And sometimes 247 00:15:35,676 --> 00:15:37,756 Speaker 1: it was maddening because I was sure that I was 248 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:40,076 Speaker 1: right and the person was wrong, and then they had 249 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 1: some influence in their life and I didn't want that. 250 00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:51,436 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think 251 00:15:51,436 --> 00:15:54,396 Speaker 1: there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving. 252 00:15:55,636 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 1: It's terrifying, and it happens more and more as they 253 00:16:00,156 --> 00:16:04,756 Speaker 1: get older. Yeah, when it came to their transition to college, 254 00:16:04,796 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: and I can imagine how jarring that is in particular because, 255 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 1: like you said, when when your kids are living under 256 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:12,636 Speaker 1: your roof, even if they don't share everything with you, 257 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:15,436 Speaker 1: you still get so much access to their lives just 258 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:19,196 Speaker 1: through mere exposure, right, Like you might see them interact 259 00:16:19,196 --> 00:16:21,316 Speaker 1: with their friends after school, or you might know their 260 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:23,996 Speaker 1: or you will know their calendar of activities because you're 261 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:26,956 Speaker 1: doing pickups and drop offs, right, So you at least 262 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:30,116 Speaker 1: have this illusion that you have access to a large 263 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 1: chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional 264 00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:38,316 Speaker 1: content of their lives is being withheld from you. And 265 00:16:38,396 --> 00:16:41,916 Speaker 1: so at some point you had to deal with physically 266 00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 1: separating from your kids when they went off to school. 267 00:16:44,676 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for 268 00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: me of what it was like to drop your younger 269 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester. Well, 270 00:16:55,476 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 1: it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before, and 271 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 1: when I was taking her the night before, we had 272 00:17:04,396 --> 00:17:06,876 Speaker 1: gone to pick up step at Target or whatever. And 273 00:17:06,916 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 1: she goes tomorrow, when you wrought me off, know me, 274 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:16,476 Speaker 1: just know me, know who I am and what my 275 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:20,356 Speaker 1: preferences are. That's basically what she was saying, exactly, put 276 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:23,396 Speaker 1: me first. And I was like, I get it. You 277 00:17:23,396 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: don't want a scene, you don't want tears, you don't 278 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:28,396 Speaker 1: want me talking to people. Just take the stuff in, 279 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:31,196 Speaker 1: drop it off, give her a hug, and get out 280 00:17:31,196 --> 00:17:33,276 Speaker 1: of there. And I was like, I got this, I 281 00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: can do this, and I think I did all right. 282 00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:36,796 Speaker 1: I mean, you'd have to ask her, but I think 283 00:17:36,796 --> 00:17:39,356 Speaker 1: I did fine. So fast forward two years. I have 284 00:17:39,436 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 1: to take Claire to University of Virginia and she is 285 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:49,676 Speaker 1: also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, like ours, naughty, weeping, 286 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: shaking moment. I can't even talk about it now. In 287 00:17:56,196 --> 00:18:03,076 Speaker 1: the Airbnb, and I just said, do you mind, like 288 00:18:03,196 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: can I just let this all out? And basically what 289 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:16,916 Speaker 1: I was feeling is this is the part of life 290 00:18:16,916 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: that I was looking forward to the most, and today 291 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:23,996 Speaker 1: is the end of it. And there will be great things, 292 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:28,076 Speaker 1: of course, so much good work to do, so many 293 00:18:28,076 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 1: people to love and help I get it. But this 294 00:18:31,316 --> 00:18:35,396 Speaker 1: is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever. 295 00:18:35,556 --> 00:18:39,476 Speaker 1: We're never going back. And would you just mind if 296 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 1: I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes 297 00:18:43,516 --> 00:18:45,236 Speaker 1: and then I'll blow my nose and we'll get in 298 00:18:45,276 --> 00:18:48,196 Speaker 1: that van and we'll go load up your room and 299 00:18:48,236 --> 00:18:50,916 Speaker 1: I'll get out of there. And she said sure, and 300 00:18:51,036 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 1: so I just held her and then we went. It 301 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 1: went so fast like it you know, it's because the car, 302 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 1: like the blinkers are one, and when you pull up, 303 00:19:02,316 --> 00:19:04,836 Speaker 1: there's a nice person with a clipboard and then like hi, 304 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:07,636 Speaker 1: you know you're in room three eighteen and you have 305 00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:11,036 Speaker 1: thirty eight minutes to move this car, and so the 306 00:19:11,076 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: blinkers are on and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle 307 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:16,556 Speaker 1: and you're going up and down the stairs and then 308 00:19:16,596 --> 00:19:20,796 Speaker 1: it's over. And I was like hi, and honestly, Like, 309 00:19:20,836 --> 00:19:22,916 Speaker 1: I know I probably sound like a crazy person, but 310 00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:27,236 Speaker 1: I knew what was happening, and I was right. It 311 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:30,156 Speaker 1: is different. It is over, like that part is over 312 00:19:30,396 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 1: and it's fine, Like I mean to have a great 313 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:38,476 Speaker 1: forty years, but there's no denying that, Like the big 314 00:19:38,556 --> 00:19:42,996 Speaker 1: page has been turned and I'm something else now to them, 315 00:19:43,156 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 1: I'm something different. I mean, you stand around with a 316 00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:51,716 Speaker 1: bunch of moms on the playground and someone says their 317 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:56,076 Speaker 1: mom's coming to town. The reaction is like, ooh, how 318 00:19:56,156 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: long she's staying. That's most of the time. That's kind 319 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: of where you end up, is that you're slightly like 320 00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 1: I love her, but like, yeah, three nine, that's where 321 00:20:10,796 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 1: this road is headed. I guess I couldn't help but 322 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: feel it. I couldn't help it see it in its totality, 323 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:24,476 Speaker 1: and you know, like every heaving SOB was just acknowledging 324 00:20:24,636 --> 00:20:31,556 Speaker 1: that this is real. We'll be back in a moment 325 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:44,516 Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. When Kelly Corrigan's daughters 326 00:20:44,556 --> 00:20:47,196 Speaker 1: moved away to college, she was eager to stay involved 327 00:20:47,196 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: in their lives, but her daughters were busy getting to 328 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:53,156 Speaker 1: know their new environment and figuring things out for themselves, 329 00:20:53,956 --> 00:20:56,836 Speaker 1: and so when Kelly did connect with them, she would 330 00:20:56,876 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: only receive small glimpses into their lives. This is when 331 00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 1: the rubber hits the road, I think, is when your 332 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:05,316 Speaker 1: kid moves out and you don't have eyes on them anymore. 333 00:21:05,676 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: So you don't have a way to know their life 334 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:11,836 Speaker 1: and their moods and their wellbeing. You're not able to 335 00:21:11,876 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 1: assess their well being with your own eyes. You can't 336 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:17,156 Speaker 1: hear the tone of their voice, you can't see their posture, 337 00:21:17,236 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 1: you can't see whether they're eating or not eating, whether 338 00:21:19,676 --> 00:21:22,196 Speaker 1: they went for a run or stay in bed. It's 339 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:24,356 Speaker 1: like a big black box and all you have are 340 00:21:24,396 --> 00:21:29,116 Speaker 1: these tiny conversations where like four twelve on Tuesday, they 341 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 1: might be in a great mood, and at four thirty 342 00:21:32,076 --> 00:21:35,996 Speaker 1: on Tuesday, long after the call is over, something horrible happens. 343 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 1: But until you talk to them again, you're still in 344 00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 1: four twelve Tuesday mode, where you're like, and people ask 345 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:43,316 Speaker 1: all the time. Wherever you go, people say how are 346 00:21:43,356 --> 00:21:45,836 Speaker 1: your kids? And whatever they've told you on four twelve 347 00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:49,996 Speaker 1: on Tuesday, you're like, she's great, She's awesome. And conversely, 348 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:53,876 Speaker 1: if you catch them on nine am on Saturday morning 349 00:21:54,596 --> 00:21:58,356 Speaker 1: and they're terrible. Then they are terrible until the next 350 00:21:58,396 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 1: time you talk to them and hear the spark back 351 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:03,716 Speaker 1: in their voice. When it came to the transition of college, 352 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: one thing that you wrote, Kelly is you actually were 353 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:12,436 Speaker 1: given guidance by the campus psychologist that was like, hey, parents, 354 00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:15,676 Speaker 1: now's your time to back the f off right, like 355 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:17,876 Speaker 1: there or something like that. Tell me more about that. 356 00:22:17,876 --> 00:22:19,796 Speaker 1: That was so interesting to me and so shocking and 357 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:22,276 Speaker 1: like not at all what happened, for example, when I 358 00:22:22,316 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 1: was off to college. If no one is even thinking 359 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:27,276 Speaker 1: through this lens of child development and individuation or any 360 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:30,476 Speaker 1: of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, So Claire goes to University 361 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:34,996 Speaker 1: of Virginia and the day of drop off, there was 362 00:22:35,036 --> 00:22:37,476 Speaker 1: a letter sent to all the parents of the freshman 363 00:22:37,516 --> 00:22:41,516 Speaker 1: class and it said some sort of nuts and bolt stuff, 364 00:22:42,116 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 1: and then it said, here's a note from our one 365 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:47,796 Speaker 1: of the people that works in our counseling office on campus. 366 00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:51,716 Speaker 1: It is not okay for you to be texting your 367 00:22:51,796 --> 00:22:55,996 Speaker 1: kid multiple times every day. The best thing you could 368 00:22:56,036 --> 00:22:58,196 Speaker 1: do for them is to stand back a little bit 369 00:22:58,636 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 1: and let them get into some kind of groove. Because 370 00:23:03,476 --> 00:23:06,156 Speaker 1: as soon as you say to somebody, how's it going. 371 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 1: The true answer is I don't know yet, Like it's 372 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:12,196 Speaker 1: going to take me eight weeks to tell you how 373 00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:15,116 Speaker 1: it's going. As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to 374 00:23:15,196 --> 00:23:18,916 Speaker 1: confirm this. But I feel like once you label something 375 00:23:19,396 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: that it takes on greater meaning, Like that language and 376 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings are all kind of linked in this 377 00:23:25,476 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 1: way that if she's if I make her say it's good, 378 00:23:29,636 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 1: it's bad, I like it, I don't like it. How's 379 00:23:32,276 --> 00:23:36,036 Speaker 1: your roommate she's okay. Then all of a sudden, that 380 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:42,476 Speaker 1: framing takes on added power to define what happens next. 381 00:23:43,036 --> 00:23:46,356 Speaker 1: And that's such a mistake. And so this guy said unequivocally, 382 00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:48,836 Speaker 1: leave your kids alone. Let them drive. If they want 383 00:23:48,876 --> 00:23:51,676 Speaker 1: to contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond 384 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:56,796 Speaker 1: to your kid within like sixty seconds. Yeah, I'm just 385 00:23:56,916 --> 00:24:00,956 Speaker 1: laughing this moment. Thinking back to when I felt this transition. 386 00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:03,116 Speaker 1: I think it was in college at some point where 387 00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: you know, my parents were so available to me when 388 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:07,796 Speaker 1: I was in high school and in college. I went 389 00:24:07,796 --> 00:24:09,356 Speaker 1: to college close by to where they live, so I'd 390 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 1: still seen them a bunch, but I remember I would 391 00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 1: call my mom or dad and they were just too 392 00:24:12,996 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: busy for me. My mom's like, I'm sorry, I'm helping 393 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 1: people get green cards to study in this country, and 394 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:21,356 Speaker 1: my dad's like, I'm in the middle of the physics equation, 395 00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 1: you know. And I just remember thinking it was actually 396 00:24:24,596 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 1: amazing in that moment to feel like a little bit 397 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: of that lifeline was cut off, because it meant that 398 00:24:31,116 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 1: I was on my own a bit, right, and I 399 00:24:33,196 --> 00:24:35,076 Speaker 1: just had to kind of figure stuff out myself. And 400 00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:38,356 Speaker 1: I never really thought about that until this moment, And 401 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:41,636 Speaker 1: now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for my development, 402 00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:45,076 Speaker 1: that they had their own thing. Oh, it's phenomenal, And 403 00:24:45,156 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 1: this is a huge new thing for me that I'm 404 00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:49,756 Speaker 1: trying to get my head around right this second, Like 405 00:24:49,916 --> 00:24:52,596 Speaker 1: something new is beginning now and I can make it great. 406 00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:56,916 Speaker 1: Like I'm totally I love Edward, I love my work. 407 00:24:57,436 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 1: We're starting new things. I love novelty. I'm learning, like 408 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:04,316 Speaker 1: everything I know how to put this together in a 409 00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 1: way that I can be happy and productive and useful. 410 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:12,036 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that's something didn't end to articulate what 411 00:25:12,276 --> 00:25:15,756 Speaker 1: ended right, or what felt so stark about the move 412 00:25:16,116 --> 00:25:18,836 Speaker 1: away from home, or just maybe their adolescence, it was 413 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,636 Speaker 1: it was a decrease in emotional intimacy. Is that what 414 00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving? Well, 415 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 1: I mean first I was grieving knowing them in the 416 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:31,396 Speaker 1: way that you know someone who lives in your house 417 00:25:33,356 --> 00:25:36,236 Speaker 1: like you you're a kid in college or the rest 418 00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:38,316 Speaker 1: of their lives, Like how much does your mom know 419 00:25:38,356 --> 00:25:41,716 Speaker 1: about you right now? How much does my mom know 420 00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 1: about me right now? Not as much as she did 421 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 1: when I was seventeen? Do you know who Tim Urban is? 422 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:50,476 Speaker 1: He writes this thing called weight but why Yeah, of course. 423 00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 1: So he did this thing where it was like this 424 00:25:53,436 --> 00:25:57,236 Speaker 1: little dot scale of how many days you have with 425 00:25:57,276 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 1: your parents, And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five, 426 00:26:04,156 --> 00:26:06,636 Speaker 1: a lot of days. Like when Georgia was one, I 427 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:09,476 Speaker 1: had three hundred and sixty five days with her. When 428 00:26:09,476 --> 00:26:14,276 Speaker 1: Georgia is eighteen, I have thirty five days with her. 429 00:26:14,716 --> 00:26:18,636 Speaker 1: When George's thirty, I have twelve days with her. When 430 00:26:18,716 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 1: George's forty, I have five days with her, like five 431 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:27,796 Speaker 1: days in a year, like not that many. So I 432 00:26:27,876 --> 00:26:31,716 Speaker 1: guess I was just grieving, like this is what's going 433 00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:34,236 Speaker 1: to happen, This is the way this is, and it's 434 00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:38,396 Speaker 1: so weird to me that something that was so consuming 435 00:26:38,436 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 1: for me as a kid. It's like all I thought about. 436 00:26:41,716 --> 00:26:43,756 Speaker 1: And then when it started happening, like when I met 437 00:26:43,876 --> 00:26:45,556 Speaker 1: Edward and fell in love and got married and then 438 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:49,636 Speaker 1: we got pregnant, we got pregnant again, I thought, this 439 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:53,556 Speaker 1: is it, Like it's happening. But I didn't have any big, 440 00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:59,556 Speaker 1: really specific visions about what happens now. So it wasn't 441 00:26:59,556 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 1: like I was like moving into this awesome thing that 442 00:27:01,836 --> 00:27:04,396 Speaker 1: I had been anticipating my whole life. It was like, 443 00:27:04,396 --> 00:27:06,476 Speaker 1: oh God, this is the part where like nobody really 444 00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:08,716 Speaker 1: knows what they're doing and how long they should do 445 00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:12,156 Speaker 1: it for. And you know, like this part is so 446 00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:17,316 Speaker 1: ambiguous compared to you know, in the first stage of 447 00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: your life, you're someone's kid, and then if you become 448 00:27:20,556 --> 00:27:22,676 Speaker 1: a parent, then you do that for the next stage, 449 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 1: and then the next stage is like what what Now? 450 00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:30,036 Speaker 1: This is a time to like move your focus. It's 451 00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:32,836 Speaker 1: like in my mind at night when I wake up, 452 00:27:33,476 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 1: I literally think like of this visual where I'm rotating 453 00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:42,556 Speaker 1: my field of vision away from them to the people 454 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 1: in my life right now who can make use of me. 455 00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:49,236 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting. I have so much work. I 456 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 1: have a TV show on PBS, I have a podcast. 457 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript, 458 00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:59,596 Speaker 1: and I'm writing a children's book right now. Wow, And 459 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:02,276 Speaker 1: it's still not enough to get them out of my 460 00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,356 Speaker 1: field of vision, like they're still right there. I still 461 00:28:05,356 --> 00:28:08,716 Speaker 1: have to like sweep them away and like almost like 462 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 1: earn my head and leave them in their own little 463 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 1: box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something 464 00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:19,876 Speaker 1: I will never know, right, It's not like I'm going 465 00:28:19,916 --> 00:28:22,316 Speaker 1: to get the play by play later where they're like, 466 00:28:22,356 --> 00:28:25,756 Speaker 1: here's what happened in college, Like it's not coming. I'm 467 00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 1: not going to know. It's none of my business, honestly, 468 00:28:28,436 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 1: and if I'm doing it right, I don't even want 469 00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:32,836 Speaker 1: to know. Like that's where I'm trying to get to. 470 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:34,996 Speaker 1: And so the way I do it is just like 471 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 1: this little exercise where it's like they're they're full in 472 00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:39,876 Speaker 1: the frame. I used to be a photographer, So if 473 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: you can imagine, like you're holding a camera to your 474 00:28:41,836 --> 00:28:44,596 Speaker 1: eye and you're filling the frame with your kids, and 475 00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: then you just rotate and you put somebody else in 476 00:28:48,036 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: the center of the frame. You put your work, you 477 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:53,476 Speaker 1: put somebody you love who needs some help. You put 478 00:28:53,476 --> 00:28:56,716 Speaker 1: somebody who makes you feel useful, You put some volunteer activity, 479 00:28:56,916 --> 00:29:03,436 Speaker 1: you put your spouse, anybody like move your field of focus. Yeah, 480 00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 1: along the way as part of this long journey right 481 00:29:07,036 --> 00:29:10,756 Speaker 1: through childhood and then adolescent and then now they're they're 482 00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:13,556 Speaker 1: own adults going off into the world. Were you ever 483 00:29:13,676 --> 00:29:16,196 Speaker 1: tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to 484 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:20,036 Speaker 1: protect yourself from getting hurt? I mean, probably like a 485 00:29:20,476 --> 00:29:22,636 Speaker 1: like a shooting star kind of thought. But like the 486 00:29:22,676 --> 00:29:24,356 Speaker 1: minute you see them on your phone, you're like, hey, 487 00:29:24,436 --> 00:29:27,636 Speaker 1: how are you? You know, the night before you're like, 488 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:29,756 Speaker 1: I gotta stop. This is crazy. You know, I'm like 489 00:29:29,796 --> 00:29:32,436 Speaker 1: losing my mind here. And then it's like it's like 490 00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 1: being in a romance a little bit. Yeah, I mean, 491 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:38,716 Speaker 1: Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon. I 492 00:29:38,756 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 1: love that having a teenage daughter is like having an 493 00:29:42,036 --> 00:29:45,316 Speaker 1: office crush, because you just like always like that you're 494 00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 1: thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about you, 495 00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:50,036 Speaker 1: and you just like go up to their door and 496 00:29:50,116 --> 00:29:53,076 Speaker 1: you're like a bunch of us are going to eat dinner. 497 00:29:53,116 --> 00:29:58,076 Speaker 1: You're probably busy, you know, like just trying to play 498 00:29:58,116 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 1: it cool, but like, don't worry because you might be 499 00:30:00,316 --> 00:30:02,676 Speaker 1: like super busy, So I totally get if you can't come, 500 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:09,556 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, I've definitely like on a bad day 501 00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:13,516 Speaker 1: when i feel like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm 502 00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:15,716 Speaker 1: messing it up, I'm making it harder for them, I'm 503 00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 1: putting rocks in their backpack in some way that I'm 504 00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: newly aware of. And then you kind of like flooded 505 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:24,836 Speaker 1: with shame and defensiveness. And then I always think the 506 00:30:24,876 --> 00:30:27,396 Speaker 1: same thought, which is I'm going to go to Europe 507 00:30:27,916 --> 00:30:31,756 Speaker 1: and live there for five years and leave you alone 508 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 1: and let you do your individuating and I'll see you, 509 00:30:36,636 --> 00:30:39,156 Speaker 1: you know, when you're twenty eight, and it'll be great. 510 00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 1: Like you don't need me and I'm just making trouble 511 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:45,596 Speaker 1: and I got to avert my gaze. So anyway, yes, 512 00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:48,476 Speaker 1: my instinct is like get out of the way. But 513 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:50,036 Speaker 1: I have to get out of the way in this 514 00:30:50,276 --> 00:30:53,596 Speaker 1: very dramatic move where I'm like, I can't talk to 515 00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:57,076 Speaker 1: you for five years, I go grow up and I'll 516 00:30:57,156 --> 00:30:59,756 Speaker 1: take care of myself. And you know, it's so stupid. 517 00:30:59,836 --> 00:31:02,156 Speaker 1: You're gonna miss me, kid, You're gonna miss me because 518 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:04,876 Speaker 1: I've actually a really good hang. Yeah that's right, that's right, 519 00:31:05,076 --> 00:31:07,796 Speaker 1: that's gonna say. Kelly and I are hitting it off. 520 00:31:08,276 --> 00:31:10,956 Speaker 1: I do find that I do find sometimes and I'm like, 521 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:13,876 Speaker 1: you know, people find like what I have to say 522 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:19,036 Speaker 1: to be useful, Like you know, like you're like, I 523 00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 1: have a TV show. Yeah, people like tune in? Do 524 00:31:22,556 --> 00:31:26,116 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe it? Yeah? You know, I'm trying to 525 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:28,156 Speaker 1: put myself in your shoes. And of course I don't 526 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:30,556 Speaker 1: have kids, so it's hard for me to fully appreciate 527 00:31:30,556 --> 00:31:33,356 Speaker 1: the relationship or what that bond is like. But I 528 00:31:33,356 --> 00:31:38,396 Speaker 1: could just imagine myself feeling betrayed by the system, if 529 00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:42,476 Speaker 1: that makes sense, Like wtf, this is the arc, this 530 00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:45,476 Speaker 1: is how things are supposed to play out, And now 531 00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 1: here I am with my heart just broken into pieces 532 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:50,756 Speaker 1: and feeling like I don't have the kind of intimacy 533 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:52,876 Speaker 1: that I had before with my kids, and not because 534 00:31:52,876 --> 00:31:54,636 Speaker 1: I don't want it. In fact, I'm obsessed with them, 535 00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 1: Like I would just feel so ticked off. Did you 536 00:31:57,956 --> 00:32:01,956 Speaker 1: ever feel that way? Yes? I feel I alternate between 537 00:32:02,396 --> 00:32:08,196 Speaker 1: this very mature acknowledgement that like, this is how it goes, 538 00:32:08,796 --> 00:32:11,436 Speaker 1: this is the relationship. This is the job, and the 539 00:32:11,556 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 1: job is more or less done. And now I'm here 540 00:32:14,116 --> 00:32:16,036 Speaker 1: to enjoy them when they happen to have time to 541 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:19,316 Speaker 1: enjoy me. Yeah, you know, like can't get enough, don't 542 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:23,476 Speaker 1: need a thing. That's my motto. It's like, can't get enough, 543 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:27,436 Speaker 1: don't need a thing. And I you know, I had 544 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:30,876 Speaker 1: a lot of conversations with a lot of mom friends 545 00:32:30,916 --> 00:32:38,036 Speaker 1: about can you believe this is the way the story goes? Yeah? Wow, Wow, 546 00:32:38,316 --> 00:32:42,036 Speaker 1: what an ending. Let's say that you're the organizer of 547 00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:45,716 Speaker 1: the universe. You get to decide for just one moment. Finally, 548 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:48,516 Speaker 1: let's enter this. Finally, I know you've been waiting for 549 00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:50,716 Speaker 1: this moment. I'm giving it to you, girl. Thank you. 550 00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,916 Speaker 1: I want you to help me understand, like emotionally, if 551 00:32:54,916 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 1: we're solving for your needs in this moment, what would 552 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:02,116 Speaker 1: the natural arc of parent child relationship look like? How 553 00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:04,276 Speaker 1: would it have turned out on their way to college? 554 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:07,516 Speaker 1: How would it have been different? And you're in control, 555 00:33:07,556 --> 00:33:13,676 Speaker 1: you're the design architect here that the way it would 556 00:33:13,716 --> 00:33:20,756 Speaker 1: be different is that we would the parents would have 557 00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:27,516 Speaker 1: some switch built into us that flips at just the 558 00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:33,996 Speaker 1: right moment such that we can totally let go and 559 00:33:34,356 --> 00:33:38,156 Speaker 1: be thrilled by the release. And I think some people 560 00:33:38,196 --> 00:33:41,276 Speaker 1: have that. I mean, Edward, my husband would not give 561 00:33:41,316 --> 00:33:44,796 Speaker 1: you the same answers to these questions, like he's delighted. 562 00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:48,476 Speaker 1: He can't believe it. It's just fantastic. It's great that 563 00:33:48,516 --> 00:33:51,036 Speaker 1: they're on their own. It's great they're independent. It's great 564 00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:52,636 Speaker 1: that we don't they don't need to talk to us 565 00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:56,876 Speaker 1: that much. Like it's all turning out perfectly, And I 566 00:33:56,916 --> 00:33:59,796 Speaker 1: admire him for that. I think he's probably right, Like 567 00:33:59,876 --> 00:34:05,196 Speaker 1: I don't defend where I'm coming from, and in fact, 568 00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:10,236 Speaker 1: I consider myself flawed. Just don't think I'm alone in it. 569 00:34:10,716 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 1: I just have a feeling that a lot of us 570 00:34:13,196 --> 00:34:15,876 Speaker 1: feel this way. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even 571 00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:19,676 Speaker 1: from a cultural perspective, I'm thinking about how different my 572 00:34:19,716 --> 00:34:23,996 Speaker 1: own orientation is about what children owe their parents or 573 00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:26,596 Speaker 1: vice versa. Like my parents aren't like, hey, is it okay? 574 00:34:26,596 --> 00:34:28,436 Speaker 1: If I text your call? They will call me whenever 575 00:34:28,476 --> 00:34:30,396 Speaker 1: the help they want, and the expectation does that I 576 00:34:30,436 --> 00:34:32,396 Speaker 1: will pick up. So that's a whole another thing, which 577 00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:35,356 Speaker 1: is just societal expectations within the Indian culture about what 578 00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:37,636 Speaker 1: this relationship is like. And I'm just thinking in this moment, 579 00:34:37,636 --> 00:34:39,756 Speaker 1: how curious is it that your answer to my question 580 00:34:39,916 --> 00:34:42,596 Speaker 1: wasn't well, that my kids would just keep sharing their 581 00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:44,956 Speaker 1: lives with me. Goddamn it, that's what I really want. 582 00:34:44,996 --> 00:34:46,996 Speaker 1: I want them to keep sharing with me everything. And 583 00:34:47,396 --> 00:34:52,196 Speaker 1: that's such an interesting perspective that your answer was an 584 00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:55,636 Speaker 1: adjustment on the parents side. It involved no adjustment to 585 00:34:55,756 --> 00:35:00,116 Speaker 1: how the kid's development turns out or that striving for independence. 586 00:35:00,396 --> 00:35:02,756 Speaker 1: So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece. 587 00:35:02,876 --> 00:35:07,076 Speaker 1: You just need to Yeah, oh interesting. You know one 588 00:35:07,116 --> 00:35:10,476 Speaker 1: thing that makes me super happy, and I just noticed 589 00:35:10,476 --> 00:35:13,916 Speaker 1: it because it happened yesterday is when I know that 590 00:35:13,956 --> 00:35:22,116 Speaker 1: they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else, I'm delighted and 591 00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:24,996 Speaker 1: it really helps me let go. So Georgia has this 592 00:35:25,076 --> 00:35:28,276 Speaker 1: great friend named Nora, Claire has this great friend named Emma. 593 00:35:28,636 --> 00:35:34,636 Speaker 1: Those relationships really help me release because I think, oh 594 00:35:34,676 --> 00:35:37,476 Speaker 1: my god, whatever Claire takes to Emma, whatever Georgia takes 595 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 1: to Nora, she's going to get great advice. They have 596 00:35:39,916 --> 00:35:43,796 Speaker 1: great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations that like, sure, 597 00:35:43,836 --> 00:35:45,996 Speaker 1: in a perfect world, I'd love to have that conversation. 598 00:35:46,316 --> 00:35:47,676 Speaker 1: I'd love to be in on that. I love a 599 00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:50,996 Speaker 1: deep conversation. I mean, I love talking to you, but 600 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:54,596 Speaker 1: it's not appropriate for me to be the one in 601 00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:58,196 Speaker 1: that conversation. What's perfect is for them to have one 602 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:01,996 Speaker 1: great friend and have the two of them kind of 603 00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:05,156 Speaker 1: figuring it out together. And that's true of both my girls, 604 00:36:05,156 --> 00:36:07,916 Speaker 1: and that makes me really happy and it really helps 605 00:36:07,956 --> 00:36:11,796 Speaker 1: me let go. So intellectually I'm on board. I want 606 00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:14,316 Speaker 1: to know how you get your emotional side to catch 607 00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:18,276 Speaker 1: up to that realization that actually it's developmentally appropriate for 608 00:36:18,316 --> 00:36:19,836 Speaker 1: them to have that friend and for it not to 609 00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:22,036 Speaker 1: be me. How do you because I'm just trying to 610 00:36:22,036 --> 00:36:24,476 Speaker 1: think about okay, like a parents listening to this right now, 611 00:36:24,556 --> 00:36:27,876 Speaker 1: being like, Kelly, you've convinced my prefrontal cortex that you've 612 00:36:27,876 --> 00:36:31,716 Speaker 1: convinced my rational brain that this is how I ought 613 00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:34,236 Speaker 1: to see things. But oh my god, it's a blow 614 00:36:34,956 --> 00:36:38,516 Speaker 1: to feel like when they get broken up with I'm 615 00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:40,756 Speaker 1: not the first person they're calling. I'm not on their 616 00:36:40,796 --> 00:36:44,636 Speaker 1: favorites list. That doesn't bother me. Like, as long as 617 00:36:44,636 --> 00:36:49,796 Speaker 1: you're in good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to 618 00:36:49,836 --> 00:36:53,476 Speaker 1: be my hands. The idea that you would be alone 619 00:36:53,996 --> 00:36:57,676 Speaker 1: and in pain and not calling me. That kills me. 620 00:36:59,556 --> 00:37:01,996 Speaker 1: I love you more than all the people in the 621 00:37:02,116 --> 00:37:06,756 Speaker 1: whole world and anyone ever will, so let it be me. 622 00:37:08,116 --> 00:37:12,436 Speaker 1: But if they have a peer, that's really my first choice. 623 00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:16,716 Speaker 1: My first choice is that they would know true friendship 624 00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:20,436 Speaker 1: with just one person that is plenty. You can get 625 00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:22,716 Speaker 1: anywhere from there, and I had that. You know, I 626 00:37:22,796 --> 00:37:25,276 Speaker 1: had a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talked 627 00:37:25,276 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 1: about her all the time, and she's so important to 628 00:37:27,316 --> 00:37:32,276 Speaker 1: me to this day. And I think it must have 629 00:37:32,316 --> 00:37:36,716 Speaker 1: been lovely for my mom to think she's got Tracy Tuttle. Yeah, 630 00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:38,676 Speaker 1: the girl's never going to leave her and she never did. 631 00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:42,476 Speaker 1: I mean, we've been friends for thirty five years. You know. 632 00:37:42,596 --> 00:37:46,436 Speaker 1: One of the reasons, Kelly, I was so excited and 633 00:37:46,516 --> 00:37:48,396 Speaker 1: eager to have you on the show is that your 634 00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:51,796 Speaker 1: story is so different from the others that we've heard, 635 00:37:52,196 --> 00:37:54,996 Speaker 1: because in your case, everything did go to plan right. 636 00:37:55,076 --> 00:37:57,676 Speaker 1: Your kids grew up, Yes, they became their own people. 637 00:37:58,236 --> 00:38:01,716 Speaker 1: You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the 638 00:38:01,836 --> 00:38:04,796 Speaker 1: ultimate success, right, like that is the end goal. And 639 00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:12,236 Speaker 1: yet the reality of it totally knocked her socks off. Yes, exactly, 640 00:38:12,556 --> 00:38:15,916 Speaker 1: there was no change of plants whatsoever the day they 641 00:38:15,916 --> 00:38:18,876 Speaker 1: were born. This is what we would hope for. And yeah, 642 00:38:18,876 --> 00:38:21,236 Speaker 1: and I think what it's done is it's it's made 643 00:38:21,316 --> 00:38:24,316 Speaker 1: me expand my understanding of change in the context of 644 00:38:24,316 --> 00:38:27,876 Speaker 1: this show and in my life, to include those experiences 645 00:38:27,956 --> 00:38:31,116 Speaker 1: where we intellectually know what to expect, but we can't 646 00:38:31,196 --> 00:38:35,236 Speaker 1: possibly predict how it will make us feel. That's right, 647 00:38:35,476 --> 00:38:38,716 Speaker 1: that's right. I mean there's like a grand canyon between 648 00:38:38,756 --> 00:38:42,916 Speaker 1: what I know and what I feel. Yeah, a grand canyon. 649 00:38:42,956 --> 00:38:45,916 Speaker 1: And I can see that tension in this conversation. I 650 00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:48,356 Speaker 1: feel like you've got these two You've got like the 651 00:38:48,396 --> 00:38:51,076 Speaker 1: Angel and devil metaphorically like on your shoulders, right, and 652 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:53,276 Speaker 1: one of them is like, now, Kelly, this is what 653 00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:55,236 Speaker 1: you ought to be like and then the other parts 654 00:38:55,236 --> 00:38:58,796 Speaker 1: like bawling tears just remembering the moment you let your 655 00:38:58,836 --> 00:39:01,836 Speaker 1: kid go. So I can the tension is so palpable 656 00:39:01,876 --> 00:39:04,636 Speaker 1: to me in this conversation. Yeah, it's like an ongoing 657 00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:09,516 Speaker 1: battle between intellect and emotion. Right, It's exhausting, My, it's 658 00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:14,076 Speaker 1: so exhausting. Yes, how do you think differently about your 659 00:39:14,196 --> 00:39:16,996 Speaker 1: role as a parent now than maybe you used to 660 00:39:17,316 --> 00:39:19,956 Speaker 1: or just given the stage of life your kids are in. 661 00:39:20,636 --> 00:39:23,796 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will 662 00:39:23,836 --> 00:39:27,876 Speaker 1: go bananas over that, but I really don't. That's fascinating. 663 00:39:28,076 --> 00:39:31,396 Speaker 1: Tell me more about that. For me, that's the only 664 00:39:31,436 --> 00:39:34,236 Speaker 1: way for me to get in the right space. It's 665 00:39:34,276 --> 00:39:38,756 Speaker 1: the only way for me to orient myself relative to them. 666 00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:42,876 Speaker 1: Is like, I'm not your parent. You don't belong to me. 667 00:39:43,356 --> 00:39:48,116 Speaker 1: I'm not responsible for you. I don't own you. Your 668 00:39:48,116 --> 00:39:49,836 Speaker 1: life is none of my business. You may share as 669 00:39:49,916 --> 00:39:53,116 Speaker 1: much or as little as you like. I shouldn't have 670 00:39:53,156 --> 00:39:56,596 Speaker 1: an opinion about everything, what you wear, who you date, 671 00:39:56,676 --> 00:39:58,276 Speaker 1: how your hair it is, what your major is, what 672 00:39:58,396 --> 00:40:01,476 Speaker 1: job you take, what are you doing this summer? So 673 00:40:03,636 --> 00:40:08,716 Speaker 1: I'm just a person who's crazy about you. That's who 674 00:40:08,716 --> 00:40:12,956 Speaker 1: I am. M. But I am not a parent in 675 00:40:12,996 --> 00:40:17,116 Speaker 1: the way that I have always defined that word. And 676 00:40:17,196 --> 00:40:22,476 Speaker 1: how did you define it before? You know, I'm responsible 677 00:40:22,516 --> 00:40:26,316 Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, I'm here to take care of you. 678 00:40:29,396 --> 00:40:35,596 Speaker 1: And now I'm I'm you know, I'm on standby, I'm 679 00:40:35,636 --> 00:40:41,076 Speaker 1: your emergency contact. Given the new contours of this relationship, 680 00:40:41,156 --> 00:40:44,796 Speaker 1: I wonder what you feel that you can reasonably expect 681 00:40:44,836 --> 00:40:46,676 Speaker 1: from your kids, Like, what do you feel that you 682 00:40:46,716 --> 00:40:50,476 Speaker 1: should expect from your kids at this stage, I think 683 00:40:50,476 --> 00:40:52,756 Speaker 1: I should expect as little as possible. I think that 684 00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:58,196 Speaker 1: the next I mean, really, this sounds crazy, but I 685 00:40:58,236 --> 00:41:00,276 Speaker 1: think the next time I can really expect things from 686 00:41:00,276 --> 00:41:06,436 Speaker 1: them is when I'm old and dying. I think everything 687 00:41:06,476 --> 00:41:11,876 Speaker 1: else is not their problem. And if they want to 688 00:41:11,916 --> 00:41:15,316 Speaker 1: come around and great, but they don't owe me that 689 00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:21,116 Speaker 1: they really don't. And yet you owe them being on 690 00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:25,356 Speaker 1: standby indefinitely, that's right, able to cheer them on no 691 00:41:25,396 --> 00:41:29,836 Speaker 1: matter what, and to love them unconditionally. Yes, yes, that 692 00:41:30,076 --> 00:41:33,716 Speaker 1: is the framework of the relationship in my opinion, and 693 00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:37,716 Speaker 1: that like that feels like a cheap deal. Kelly Corrigan, 694 00:41:38,116 --> 00:41:40,516 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm just listening out, and I get 695 00:41:40,556 --> 00:41:43,916 Speaker 1: what you're saying, But damn, that's hard. It's the only 696 00:41:43,916 --> 00:41:46,196 Speaker 1: way for it to be beautiful. It's the only way 697 00:41:46,236 --> 00:41:49,876 Speaker 1: that it could be beautiful. M Okay. So I think 698 00:41:49,876 --> 00:41:53,596 Speaker 1: what I'm realizing is, like we all talk about unconditional love, 699 00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:58,476 Speaker 1: it's a platitude. Yeah, you have helped me better grasp 700 00:41:59,676 --> 00:42:04,636 Speaker 1: what that kind of unconditional love can look like in 701 00:42:04,636 --> 00:42:07,716 Speaker 1: this relationship. You've made it more specific for me, which 702 00:42:07,756 --> 00:42:10,876 Speaker 1: is really helpful. I think to understand what we mean 703 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:14,116 Speaker 1: when we say the platitude, This is partly what we mean. 704 00:42:14,956 --> 00:42:17,156 Speaker 1: We mean accepting that we're getting the short end of 705 00:42:17,156 --> 00:42:21,036 Speaker 1: the stick and being okay with it. If there's any 706 00:42:21,036 --> 00:42:24,516 Speaker 1: obligation from their end to me, then it can't be beautiful. 707 00:42:25,156 --> 00:42:28,556 Speaker 1: It can just be the meeting of an obligation. If 708 00:42:28,556 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 1: there's no obligation and then you actually have time together 709 00:42:32,636 --> 00:42:35,036 Speaker 1: and you actually enjoy each other and there's actually sort 710 00:42:35,076 --> 00:42:41,436 Speaker 1: of a nice flow between you, then it's beautiful. Somehow, 711 00:42:41,556 --> 00:42:48,476 Speaker 1: you have to learn to relish giving it away with 712 00:42:48,596 --> 00:42:56,316 Speaker 1: no expectation of return, because then if they return, when 713 00:42:56,356 --> 00:43:01,316 Speaker 1: they return, when they love you back, when they crave you, 714 00:43:02,636 --> 00:43:36,916 Speaker 1: it's magnificent. Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me 715 00:43:36,996 --> 00:43:39,996 Speaker 1: next week when I talk to psychologist doctor Marissa Franco 716 00:43:40,316 --> 00:43:44,156 Speaker 1: about the science of friendship. Marssa wants us to value 717 00:43:44,156 --> 00:43:47,316 Speaker 1: our friends like we value our family and our romantic partners, 718 00:43:47,756 --> 00:43:50,956 Speaker 1: because friends can help us access new and exciting parts 719 00:43:50,956 --> 00:43:54,876 Speaker 1: of ourselves. Each person that we interact with is an 720 00:43:54,876 --> 00:43:58,156 Speaker 1: advertisement for the kalidoscope of ways in which we can live. 721 00:43:58,716 --> 00:44:02,156 Speaker 1: That learning happens through being able to see a friend 722 00:44:02,276 --> 00:44:04,276 Speaker 1: engage at a certain hobby your interest and then you're like, 723 00:44:04,276 --> 00:44:06,356 Speaker 1: maybe I would like that hobby your interests. It's that 724 00:44:06,396 --> 00:44:09,676 Speaker 1: exposure that we get through each friend, and in that way, 725 00:44:09,716 --> 00:44:12,276 Speaker 1: it's like each person that we interact with can bring 726 00:44:12,316 --> 00:44:25,196 Speaker 1: out a new and different side of our identities. A 727 00:44:25,276 --> 00:44:28,556 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produced 728 00:44:28,556 --> 00:44:31,836 Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change of Family includes 729 00:44:31,876 --> 00:44:35,956 Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 730 00:44:36,356 --> 00:44:40,956 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. 731 00:44:41,636 --> 00:44:44,916 Speaker 1: Louise Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 732 00:44:44,956 --> 00:44:48,356 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 733 00:44:48,356 --> 00:44:51,796 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there, 734 00:44:52,396 --> 00:44:55,716 Speaker 1: and of course, of very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 735 00:44:56,676 --> 00:44:59,156 Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 736 00:44:59,196 --> 00:45:22,556 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker, See you next week. My daughters 737 00:45:22,556 --> 00:45:26,516 Speaker 1: have said to me, it's a hug, mom, not a hang. 738 00:45:30,116 --> 00:45:34,076 Speaker 1: So Kelly, I'm here, Yeah, I'm here for the hang 739 00:45:34,196 --> 00:45:36,956 Speaker 1: any day, Okay, I'll come over and we will embrace. 740 00:45:37,876 --> 00:45:40,156 Speaker 1: I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny, I could pick 741 00:45:40,196 --> 00:45:41,396 Speaker 1: you up and put me in my arms.