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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan fending for yourself. How

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Speaker 1: many kids does that apply to in this world we

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Speaker 1: live in now? I know one that it did, in fact,

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Speaker 1: applied to Tylie Ryan. Tilly was a young lady. She

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Speaker 1: had seen the life that her mother had lived. Five husbands,

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Speaker 1: multiple moves to settlement. Tillie had essentially become the anchor

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Speaker 1: in her family, certainly as that applied to her little brother.

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Speaker 1: To ju Valo always envisioned them clinging to one another.

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Speaker 1: There's that image where they're hugging each other very tightly,

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Speaker 1: and I would think that in their world that's really

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Speaker 1: all they had to hold on to for stability was

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Speaker 1: one another. But just like with JJ, we found out

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Speaker 1: a lot of disturbing news about how Tiley met her

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Speaker 1: end because we've heard from the forensic pathologists that did

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Speaker 1: her examination. In this episode, we're gonna break it down,

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Speaker 1: We're going to discuss it, the horror of Tiley's death.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. There

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Speaker 1: is no satisfaction. And my listeners know how much I

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Speaker 1: hate the work closure because it doesn't exist, particularly when

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Speaker 1: it comes to death. You get answers, and some answers

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Speaker 1: are just wanting their unsatisfying, I think because you haven't

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Speaker 1: quite filled in all of the blanks, and unfortunately, with

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Speaker 1: Tyler Ryan's death, that's that's kind of the situation we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in right now. But what I can say

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Speaker 1: is that her death was horrific. Dave Mac, would you

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Speaker 1: agree with that assessment?

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Speaker 2: On what we know about Tyler Ryan and her passing

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Speaker 2: is it's frustrating and sad, I say that not lightly frustrating,

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Speaker 2: because we don't still to this moment, know all the

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Speaker 2: things you would normally know about somebody who died when

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Speaker 2: you have remains to examine. I say remains, because there

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Speaker 2: was not a body to examine as one would expect

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Speaker 2: when you say body. What happened to Tyler Ryan? And

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Speaker 2: we don't even know exactly when. What we do know

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Speaker 2: is that Tyler Ryan was last seen September eighth in

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Speaker 2: Yellowstone Park in a picture with her mother, her little

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Speaker 2: brother JJ, and her uncle Alex Cox, who was Lori

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Speaker 2: Valo's brother. We have that picture and we have some

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Speaker 2: other information that we know she was alive with the

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Speaker 2: family September the eighth, and then we know she's missing

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Speaker 2: until June ninth of twenty twenty. What took place in

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Speaker 2: the infram is where people like you come in. How

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Speaker 2: did they find Tylee Ryan?

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Speaker 1: I think that to say buried is inaccurate. I prefer

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Speaker 1: the term discarded with an attempt to cover up burial.

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Speaker 1: To me, when you say that, it goes to honoring,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Dave. When we honor someone,

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Speaker 1: we bury them. She was not this young woman. She's

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Speaker 1: in that weird space in time. She's seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Actually she died too. She died two weeks before her

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Speaker 2: seventeenth birthday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, right on the cusp, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the world's about to open up to her, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I think in a very bad way, it had already

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Speaker 1: opened up to her. She had seen things that I

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Speaker 1: think that by virtue the way that her mother chose

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Speaker 1: to live her life, she had been exposed to just

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Speaker 1: the dissettlement in and of itself that she had had

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Speaker 1: to endure for all those years.

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Speaker 2: It's very important to note two things really quickly. One,

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Speaker 2: when we did a program about JJ Vallo and how

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Speaker 2: his body was recovered, and his body was recovered and

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Speaker 2: if you haven't listened to it. I encourage you to

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Speaker 2: do so. But what happened with Tyler Ryan totally different.

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Speaker 2: It was like two totally separate things, not connected by anything.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned that Tylie had been through a lot

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Speaker 2: with her mother, Well, her mother was married five times.

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Speaker 2: When you watch the interview of Tylli Ryan with police

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Speaker 2: after Joe, after Charles Vallo was murdered by Alex Cox,

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Speaker 2: watched that interview and in the times after, she seems unaffected.

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Speaker 2: Tyler Ryan seemed totally unaffected. She actually was emulating what

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Speaker 2: her mother was doing. They were joking, talking like it

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Speaker 2: was just another day. She's copying her mother and no emotion, giggling, laughing,

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Speaker 2: moving on. So, Tylie Ryan was so impacted by the

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Speaker 2: lifestyle that her mother led that her demise and the

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Speaker 2: way she was discarded shows something a total disconnect from

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Speaker 2: life and love.

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Speaker 1: That's rooted I think in something else, that touch of reality,

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Speaker 1: that dose of reality in her short life. It was

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Speaker 1: read into the record in trial. By the way, Laurie

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Speaker 1: Valo's trial has actually going on right now as we're

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Speaker 1: laying this down. It came out in testimony on the

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Speaker 1: part of the forensic pathologist that he had had a

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Speaker 1: chance to review Tillie's medical records, and I was kind

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Speaker 1: of surprised by this. She had lived a very short life,

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Speaker 1: but in that time she had been diagnosed with anxiety,

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Speaker 1: she had gone through having OVERI insist, and get this,

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Speaker 1: she had actually suffered pancreatitis in that short life. Pancreatitis

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Speaker 1: is a miserable condition and over insists or certainly unpleasant

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Speaker 1: as well. And then you have this anxiety. You know what,

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Speaker 1: seventeen years old, wash have anxiety. I'm a firm believer.

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Speaker 1: You know that many times illnesses manifest themself as a

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Speaker 1: result of stressors in your life and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And you take its measure by thinking that this person

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Speaker 1: that she's attached to at the hip, her mother has

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Speaker 1: literally drugged this child through a keyhole her entire life,

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Speaker 1: through all these various relationships and situations that they've been in.

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Speaker 1: You'll never convince me, you know, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: have things manifest manifest in your life physically.

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Speaker 2: What is pancreatitis exactly, Joe, I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's an inflammation of the pancreas and it's deadly actually,

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Speaker 1: I mean it is it's super deadly and many times

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Speaker 1: it's associated with things like elevated cholesterol. Not that she was,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you'll have people that have problems with

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Speaker 1: chronic alcoholism develop pancreatitis. There's any number of reasons why

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Speaker 1: you can develop it. But it is an infection of

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Speaker 1: the pancreas, very painful. I mean, it comes along with

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Speaker 1: like horrible abnominal pain, high fever, It can give systemic as,

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Speaker 1: It impacts your the totality of your system, the way

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Speaker 1: your pancreas functions. Remember the pancreas, you know, controls insulin

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Speaker 1: in your body. Just a horrible set of circumstances. And

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Speaker 1: you couple that with everything that she was having to endure,

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Speaker 1: you know, right right before she was murdered. She's not

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Speaker 1: yet seventeen, and she's dealing with the homicide of her

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Speaker 1: stepfather at the hand of her uncle.

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Speaker 2: And please add in there, Joe, that Tyler Ryan was

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Speaker 2: at home and knew the truth of what had transpired.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned stress and worry, and that can lead to

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Speaker 2: some of these things that she was experiencing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and here's another little nugget kind of picked up

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Speaker 1: on friends of mind that are in the media that

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Speaker 1: have been following kind of the family dynamic of this,

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Speaker 1: more so than I have try to stick more with

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Speaker 1: the forensics, even though in this case is really hard,

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Speaker 1: as you can see, to kind of hide my feelings

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Speaker 1: relative to it. But in this particular case, from what

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing, she would not stand for some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that her mother would engage in. She would be

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Speaker 1: combative with her, She would make comments to her. She

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Speaker 1: was not just going to go along with the mom

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Speaker 1: because mom said that this is what she could do.

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Speaker 1: You know, She's not another man coming into her mother's

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Speaker 1: life that her mother can manipulate with her beauty and

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Speaker 1: sex appeal and whatever else that she's you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to sell to whomever it's coming down the track. Kyleie

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Speaker 1: has seen behind the curtain, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: And you know what she showed that to people that

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Speaker 2: came into Laurie's life. For instance, that Lorie Valo's best

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Speaker 2: friend was Melanie Gibb and Elanie Gibb. It was brought

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Speaker 2: up in trial that Tyler Ryan didn't particularly care for

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Speaker 2: Melanie Gibb. So I think that while she has a

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Speaker 2: mother that is dragging her, that you mentioned dragging through

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Speaker 2: a keyhole. I think that's a great that's a great

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Speaker 2: identifier there, but that maybe Tilly didn't overreact with her mother,

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Speaker 2: but it manifested itself in the way that Tyley looked

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Speaker 2: at Lourie's friends that were also part of this crazy

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Speaker 2: world that Tyler wasn't buying into, which is why Tyler

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Speaker 2: had to go. Tyler wasn't on board.

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Speaker 1: They had made an assessment that she's one of these

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Speaker 1: dark spirits, or however they were framing it, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a justification for these things. But what we do

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Speaker 1: know this new space that her mother had chosen to

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Speaker 1: occupy or was planning on occupying, this place that's out

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Speaker 1: in this beautiful area of the country out there in

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Speaker 1: the Eastern I hope it ended in sheer horror and

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Speaker 1: it actually wound up being Tyler's resting place after she

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Speaker 1: was apparently murdered. If you're spending time out in rural America,

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Speaker 1: if you're out on a farm, I don't know of

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Speaker 1: any farm that doesn't have a place where you burn

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Speaker 1: brush down Here in South they called a burn pile

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Speaker 1: where you can take limbs and things that break off

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Speaker 1: of trees and whatnot. And you can you save it

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Speaker 1: up and kind of gather it and maybe you'll have

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Speaker 1: a bonfire, and maybe you'll just stand out there and

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Speaker 1: burn it and make sure it doesn't spread, and then

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Speaker 1: you walk away and everything is said and done. They

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Speaker 1: had a place like this. There was this location that

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Speaker 1: Chad Dave Bell had you on the backside of his property,

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Speaker 1: adjacent to this big red building which I've always suspected

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Speaker 1: had something to do with the deaths of these children,

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Speaker 1: that was just out back of it where it looked

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Speaker 1: more like a fir ring actually, but it was also

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Speaker 1: known as a location where Chad da Bell and his

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Speaker 1: wife Tammy would bear pets. And as it turned out,

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Speaker 1: this is where Tyler Ryan's body was found.

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Speaker 2: Duar, and you mentioned that it was a burn pile,

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Speaker 2: you know, a burn pile you burn trash and rubbish.

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Speaker 2: But also in that same ring, as you mentioned, there

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Speaker 2: were benches around there where that family roast in marshmallows, havingsmores,

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Speaker 2: and they chose that location, the pet cemetery location, to

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Speaker 2: actually dispose discard the body of Tiller Ryan. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how that impacted the investigation, but I'm really curious, Joe,

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Speaker 2: when you start digging around something like this, and you

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Speaker 2: have what you know is a pet cemetery area, and

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Speaker 2: you have obviously fire. What are you finding as an

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Speaker 2: investigator as you start looking for remains?

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Speaker 1: Throw a word out to you, stratification. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: that in a sociological standpoint. I'm talking about from a

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Speaker 1: geological standpoint. We have STRATAI relative to the ground where

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Speaker 1: you have various layers of earth, and this would have

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Speaker 1: been stratification in the sense of recent. When I say recent,

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking at one hundreds and thousands of years.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about in the recent history where you do

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Speaker 1: this layering, if you will, of things. So for every

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Speaker 1: bit of wood that you burned, are other items that

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Speaker 1: you're trying to dispose of by fire. It burns down,

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Speaker 1: it settles, right, and then just to imagine that progressively

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Speaker 1: becomes more compressed over period times, you burn more items,

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Speaker 1: you throw more stuff in. You're getting this strata of

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Speaker 1: all of these elements that have been burned down and

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Speaker 1: rendered down over the years, and where they found Highley's remains.

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Speaker 1: This earth would have been probably a bit more loose,

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Speaker 1: if you will, you know it had been The earth

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Speaker 1: was probably turned more regularly with JJ's remains. When they

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Speaker 1: went out to that retention pond or dried up pond

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Speaker 1: or whatever that area is, whatever they're calling it where

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Speaker 1: his remains were found, that earth had not been turned

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Speaker 1: beautiful green grass all around except for that one area.

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Speaker 1: But when you get to an area where you've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of debris that's just been settling there for

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Speaker 1: a while, and you might add to it, the soil

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Speaker 1: is going to look disrupted as well. So when you

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Speaker 1: show up as an investigator, you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: take a long, hard look. And it might not just

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Speaker 1: be your sight that you're relying on when you're looking around.

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Speaker 1: It might be smell. It very well might be smell

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Speaker 1: because you're sitting there and you're thinking, I'm smelling something

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Speaker 1: that is obviously organic, it is decomposing, and you catch

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Speaker 1: wind of it. And the reason that you might catch

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Speaker 1: wind of it, and this is absolutely horrible. But the

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist in this case, her assessment of Tyler's remains,

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Speaker 1: she said that there had been animal activity in her remains,

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Speaker 1: So she's referring to a small mammal. She doesn't know

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Speaker 1: what type of small mammal, but you know you've got possums. Famously,

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Speaker 1: Chad Dave Bell had mentioned a large raccoon part of

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Speaker 1: this alibi he had put forward when he was socking

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Speaker 1: to his wife Tammy. Raccoons will feast as well. You

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Speaker 1: have any number of rodents that will do this. If

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Speaker 1: in fact, rodents or some small mammal hadn't made their

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Speaker 1: way to all the remain of Tyley, that means that

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Speaker 1: they would have disrupted the soil. And when they disrupt

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Speaker 1: the soil, they open it up. They're not going to

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Speaker 1: go back and recover it. Okay, So if you get

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Speaker 1: close enough, you begin to detect an odor, Okay, if

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Speaker 1: you look very carefully. That's why it's always very important

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Speaker 1: with the case like this to not just simply have

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Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist consult on a case where they're back

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Speaker 1: at a laboratory. You physically need them out there. They're

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Speaker 1: amazing people. I've got a couple of friends that are

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologists, and they are I'm not going to say

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Speaker 1: they're ocd by nature. They're the type of people that

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Speaker 1: can look at ground and they see things that I

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Speaker 1: might just regard as a rock and an't rock. They

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Speaker 1: have the ability to read ground the way that nobody

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Speaker 1: else can. And so if you physically have the forensic

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Speaker 1: anthropologists out there, which they actually did, they actually at

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Speaker 1: the scene, they can take a look at a space

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Speaker 1: of ground, even in a burn area, and they can

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Speaker 1: see lines of demarcation that might indicate where burial has

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Speaker 1: taken place, kind of the margins or the borders, if

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Speaker 1: you will, of where the soil has been disrupted, where

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Speaker 1: they actually detect a pattern. And I've had this happen

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Speaker 1: a couple of times over my career where I would

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Speaker 1: be staring at something and I was staring at what

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Speaker 1: I should stare at, but I don't recognize it. And

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Speaker 1: then it takes the forensic anthropologists to say, okay, do

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Speaker 1: you see this deviation right here? This delineates the borders

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Speaker 1: and you start to stare at it, and it's like

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Speaker 1: you remember those old three D paintings that you would

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Speaker 1: look at and they say, you got to stare at

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Speaker 1: it long enough, and it's kind of like that.

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Speaker 2: All of a sudden, you see the old woman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the image just kind of pops for you all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, and it's revelatory at that moment, and

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Speaker 1: once you identify it the tough part really begins in

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Speaker 1: because you have to begin to lay your grid out.

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Speaker 1: And of course with Tyly, our body's not intact, so

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Speaker 1: you've got deposition of human remains that are spread out

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Speaker 1: over an area. I can't give you the exact dimensions,

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Speaker 1: but I know that they're spread out. They were not

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Speaker 1: recovered in one piece. And if this helps it all. Warren,

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist, actually made a statement. I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: paraphrasing right now, but you know he did make this

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Speaker 1: kind of offhanded remark in his testimony under direct when

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Speaker 1: he was being asked about the receipt of Tyler's remains

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Speaker 1: at the Ada County Corner's office. How do you receive remains?

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Speaker 1: He said, Well, normally I receive remains in a body bag,

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Speaker 1: So how did you receive these in multiple backs? Tyler

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Speaker 1: arrived at the Corner's office in Ada County, Idaho in pieces,

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Speaker 1: not one intact body. It's a partnership when you work

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Speaker 1: together in forensics. There's multiple practices that forensic pathologists can

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Speaker 1: align themselves with in their forensic practice. First thing I

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Speaker 1: think that probably comes to mind is traditionally, like forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologist and forensic odentologists, a forensic dentist. Toxicology. Certainly, you're

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Speaker 1: always trying to decide what was going on with the

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Speaker 1: chemistry of the body, you know, what was going on inside.

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Speaker 1: There's some peripheral people sometimes will consult radiologists, a certainly

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Speaker 1: neurologists that will examine brains. But I don't know if

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Speaker 1: any other marriage that exists in forensic practice that is

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Speaker 1: so kind of conjoined as that between the forensic pathologist

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Speaker 1: and the forensic anthropologist. They're kind of doing the same thing,

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Speaker 1: only the forensic anthropologist is really focused on human skeletal

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Speaker 1: remains and what they can learn from the bone. Physics

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Speaker 1: can point you in the right direction with it, but

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Speaker 1: these people, they spend years and years going through their

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Speaker 1: doctoral programs out there to learn how to read bones

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Speaker 1: and tell the story that's left behind, because sometimes that's

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Speaker 1: all that remains.

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Speaker 2: The autopsy for JJ took about four hours. The autopsy

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Speaker 2: for Tyler Ryan took him about a week. The body

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Speaker 2: was burned. Was there an odor that would be recognizable

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Speaker 2: as that of a decomposed individual even after being in

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Speaker 2: the elements buried in the dirt burned? What kind of

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Speaker 2: condition are we expecting out of this. Are you going

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Speaker 2: to smell it when you start digging? Are you going

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Speaker 2: to smell it when you're standing on top of the ground.

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Speaker 1: In the state in which they have mentioned that Tyler's

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Speaker 1: remains were in. Probably once you start, once you break

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Speaker 1: the earth, I mean really substantially break the earth. You know,

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Speaker 1: a cadaver dog would hit immediately, But for kind of

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Speaker 1: our spectrum our all factory spectrum as humans, it would

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Speaker 1: take turning the earth to really smell it. The decomposition

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Speaker 1: that you smell relative to a decaying or remain has

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Speaker 1: to do with soft tissue. Bones will have an odor

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Speaker 1: to them, but it's not as profound as is associated

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Speaker 1: with with soft tissue. And Tyley she still had and

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Speaker 1: this is horrible to say, but it's body bags. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about this. But she still had her

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Speaker 1: bowel was still present. Her heart and though compromise and

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Speaker 1: kind of shrunken I think probably as related to heat,

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Speaker 1: was still there. Her lungs were still there, so not

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Speaker 1: everything had been eradicated. In total. The forensic anthropologists doctor

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Speaker 1: Christensen had stated that she had one hundred bones that

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Speaker 1: were found, and of course human bodies got over two

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Speaker 1: hundred so some had been rendered down or just impossible

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Speaker 1: to have recovered. She had also mentioned that there was

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Speaker 1: some type of animal is out there, and animals will

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Speaker 1: take away bones as well. You begin to think about

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Speaker 1: the bones of the fingers and toes and the feet

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Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things. But they found a

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Speaker 1: goodly portion of the remains that were left behind, but

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Speaker 1: they had been burned. That makes this kind of a

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Speaker 1: daunting challenge. The forensic anthropologists will do their assessment on

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Speaker 1: the body, but it's at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: that the forensic pathologist is the one that actually signs

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Speaker 1: a death certificate. In the list what the cause and

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Speaker 1: manner of death is. They classified Tiley's manner of death.

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Speaker 1: Remember we have five. We've talked about this before, but

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Speaker 1: we have five and they classified her manner of death

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Speaker 1: as homicide. But the cause is very interesting. Her cause

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Speaker 1: of death is non specific homicidal trauma. And you hear

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Speaker 1: that many times when you have these kind of fragmented

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Speaker 1: bodies like this, you know the cause of death was

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Speaker 1: something that was at the hand of another, and that's

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Speaker 1: what defines a homicide death at the hand of another.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're saying when you actually use that term,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be violent traumatic. But beyond that, they

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Speaker 1: can't say. It's like saying gunshot wound or strangulation or

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Speaker 1: bludgeoning or stabbing or some kind of blunt force trauma.

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Speaker 1: The forensic pathologist said he couldn't go any further than that.

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Speaker 1: So this becomes at that point in time in our world,

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Speaker 1: in the medical leal world, that this becomes a kind

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Speaker 1: of a circumstantial event, right, and you're assessing what you

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Speaker 1: have remaining from the physical remains, and then you're coupling

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Speaker 1: that with the circumstance in which the body is found.

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Speaker 1: You've got a body that there has been great effort

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Speaker 1: that has been put forth to render the body down

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Speaker 1: by fire and then cover it to obscure it from view.

359
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Speaker 1: So that in and of itself gives us an indication

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Speaker 1: that you've got something very very nefarious at work here,

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Speaker 1: and that's what the forensic pathologists had to work with

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Speaker 1: and that was their fine. Ruly.

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Speaker 2: But there was one part of this that kind of

364
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Speaker 2: stood out to me, and that is the identified heart,

365
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Speaker 2: both lungs, one kidney. You mentioned portions of bowel and liver,

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Speaker 2: but they found small fragments of brain matter. I know

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Speaker 2: obviously that they've got multiple bags. Her body didn't come

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Speaker 2: in intact, but are we talking about the total destruction

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Speaker 2: of a human being beyond It's enough that she's dead,

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Speaker 2: but now we're smashing her head. Is that what had

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Speaker 2: to happen for there to be brain matter?

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Speaker 1: Hard to say, And let me tell you why. You've

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Speaker 1: got a real feel for this, Dave. When you have

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Speaker 1: thermal injuries, okay, and thermal injuries can it's not just

375
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Speaker 1: an anti mortem event. You can have thermal injuries to

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Speaker 1: a body post mortem. Many things happen dynamically. You can

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Speaker 1: get heat related fractures of the body, okay, of the

378
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Speaker 1: bone itself, so the bone will actually crack as a

379
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: result of exposure to heat as it's beginning to break down.

380
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Speaker 1: If you have the skull and they don't. They didn't

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Speaker 1: have the intact skull they talked about. Like the area

382
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Speaker 1: around the super Orrible ridges, there's a few focal areas

383
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Speaker 1: that remain. You have to wonder did Tilly's skull fracture

384
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Speaker 1: as a result of a heat fracture being exposed to

385
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Speaker 1: intense flame and then you've got brain matter that's leaching

386
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Speaker 1: out or is this something that was maybe part of

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Speaker 1: the causation of her death and you had brain matter

388
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Speaker 1: that was extruding in some way at the time of

389
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Speaker 1: death and then they find it there. So that again

390
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Speaker 1: is one of these things that's very difficult to assess.

391
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Speaker 1: And heat fractures, anything that occurs in death, those fractures

392
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Speaker 1: are going to appear differently, particularly to the trained eye

393
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Speaker 1: of a forensic anthropologist. You know, where you have some

394
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Speaker 1: kind of anti mortal event where you'll have associated hemorrhage

395
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: rounding the points of fracture and all that stuff. You

396
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: don't have a lot to go on here because a

397
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Speaker 1: lot of the soft tissue has been rendered down. And

398
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Speaker 1: that's one of the big things that we look tough

399
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: in forensic pathology is if we have soft tissue that's

400
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: going to give us an indication of things like bruises

401
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: or contusions and scratches, marks, literature marks, you know, even

402
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: gunshot ones. We've talked about a range of fire on

403
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: the show before. You know, deposition of sood. Somebody's been

404
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: cracked in the head with a hammer, Perhaps you'll have

405
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: markings on the outer soft tissue that give me an

406
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: indication of laceration. And you don't have that to deal with.

407
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: And that's very non specific. But my eye in this

408
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: case is drawn to something that the forensic anthropologists mentioned

409
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: on the stand, and that is that she, given her

410
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: extensive training and background, she saw striking evidence found on

411
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Speaker 1: the pelvis. Opined from the stand that what she saw

412
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Speaker 1: was an attempt at dismemberment. And we had heard this,

413
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Speaker 1: we had heard this before, but they were very non

414
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: specific about this dismemberment, this whole issue with dismemberment. My

415
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: thought was, where are they getting it from? Did you

416
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 1: see saw marks on the bone. That's not what she see,

417
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, according to doctor Christiansen, she had seen great

418
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: external force that was exerted to the bones of the pelvis.

419
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: It's very non specific, but it's I hesitate to say crushing,

420
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: but there's kind of these like linear marks that gives

421
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: you an idea of a downward strike of something. So

422
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Speaker 1: I mean, are we talking about an axe? Are we

423
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Speaker 1: talking about a pick axe? Which I think has been

424
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: mentioned before. In order to break the body apart to

425
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Speaker 1: try to render it down, because you have to make

426
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Speaker 1: a body manageable if you're going to try to render

427
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: it down, and sometimes that just doesn't happen. She did

428
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: the forends against polygist did mention that this is not

429
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: typical of a traditional quote unquote dismemberment, where you would

430
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: go to a joint perhaps and saw through a joint

431
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: break down the elements of the body. That's not what

432
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: was happening. That's not what they were seeing. This is

433
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: an odd place day. It's very odd that you would

434
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: have fractures in the pelvic region of Tilly's body that

435
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: are associated with some kind of strike downward force that's occurring.

436
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: It sounds almost half hearted, just like the burning, because

437
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: her body was not totally rendered down. You know, it

438
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: takes eighteen hundred degrees fahrenheit in a crematory well of

439
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: like constant fire. They're not doing that here. They're using

440
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: wood apparently in order to fuel this. They did a

441
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: very shoddy job because they left behind all of these

442
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: remnants of bone and organs as well. They did not

443
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: finish the job. It seems like it was something that

444
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: was done quite hastily.

445
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: In reality, Could they determine that the markings that showed

446
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: they were trying to dismember occurred before or after fire?

447
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: These are going to be post mortem injuries, and the

448
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: direct quote from doctor Christians is that there were five

449
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: areas of sharp force trauma to the left hip bone

450
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: and they were not the result of a disease process.

451
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: You know, this is kind of speculative, but you're thinking

452
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: about someone that's going to go to the trouble of

453
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: conducting a dismemberment. You have to have the right tools

454
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: for the job. And if you're talking about strikes with

455
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: some kind of weapon that's being swung downward, that sounds

456
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: like bad preparation. You're not thinking this process through. It's

457
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: certainly not somebody that would have had experience with butchering, say,

458
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: for instance, an animal like a deer. You know what

459
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: you need. You're going to have to have a hacksaw,

460
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: you're going to have to have sharp knife, all these

461
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: things that come along with that kind of experience. You're

462
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: using some type of item that's just a weapon or

463
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: pool of convenience. I'll be very interested to see what

464
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: the trace evidence people have to say about this case.

465
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 1: What did they find? All signs from me point to

466
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: that red barn out there. I've always thought that something

467
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: had happened, because if you're going to purpose yourself to

468
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: dismember or render down human remains. You have to have

469
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: a sequestered area to do that. Do you have to

470
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: have a location where you can do this under cover,

471
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: where nobody is going to take notice of it. You

472
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: have to have a certain amount of privacy. This is

473
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: not something that you're just going to do out in

474
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: the open in your backyard. This is something where you're

475
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: going to need cover for it. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

476
00:29:43,280 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: and this is body backs assass