WEBVTT - Replay: How To Stop Africa's Brain Drain 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Jennifer Zabisaja. This week we're bringing you a special

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<v Speaker 3>episode from our archives. Each year, up to twelve million

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<v Speaker 3>young Africans enter the workforce, but only about three million

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<v Speaker 3>formal jobs are available, so many are looking for opportunities abroad.

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<v Speaker 3>I spoke with author and Bloomberg columnists Chiku Kumeria about

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<v Speaker 3>why so many people are choosing to leave and what

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<v Speaker 3>future she hopes her young daughter will grow into. We'll

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<v Speaker 3>be back with a new episode next week. On this

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<v Speaker 3>episode of the Next Africa podcast, we'll look at why

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<v Speaker 3>so many young Africans think their future prospects lie abroad

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<v Speaker 3>and what can be done to turn it around. Joining

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<v Speaker 3>me this week from Nairobi is author, journalist and Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 3>columnists Shiku ca Sheik.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to have you here.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you doing, Hi, Jennifer, I'm great, Nice to

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<v Speaker 1>see you.

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<v Speaker 2>Nice to see you too and speak with you.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a very fascinating piece, and I'm sure for

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<v Speaker 3>many people who have been covering the region, it's something

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<v Speaker 3>that's been on the minds for a number of years.

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<v Speaker 3>But let's start with some of the concepts you get

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<v Speaker 3>into in your piece, and one of them is called Jappa.

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<v Speaker 3>Talk to us about what that means and why you

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<v Speaker 3>focused in on that.

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<v Speaker 1>So Japa is a concept of young Africans who are

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<v Speaker 1>so frustrated. Many times they're they're patriotic, they have great hopes,

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<v Speaker 1>they're innovative, they're resilient, but then they get to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where they feel the continent has failed them. And

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<v Speaker 1>japa means to flee, and so now they're fleeing to

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<v Speaker 1>and these are young, educated people, so it's really people

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<v Speaker 1>that the continent should be tapping into and keeping on

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<v Speaker 1>the continent, but they get frustrated and they'll be living

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<v Speaker 1>for Canada, UK or any other any of the place

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<v Speaker 1>in the West that's making it easy for people to

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<v Speaker 1>move for work.

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<v Speaker 3>Do we have a sense to go Why they're choosing

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<v Speaker 3>some of these places that they're going, especially given some

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<v Speaker 3>of the challenges that they're facing here on the continent.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that factoring into potentially where they're going?

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<v Speaker 2>What did you find? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>So from what I books out, people will go where

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<v Speaker 1>it's easiest for them. So even anecdotally, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the friends who I have who young professional, they had

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<v Speaker 1>good education and they've had a great career trajectory. They're

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<v Speaker 1>leaving for Canada because Canada does have they have a

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<v Speaker 1>very immigration friendly program that's going on that it's based

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<v Speaker 1>on a point.

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<v Speaker 2>System welcome, We're so glad you decided to make Canada

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<v Speaker 2>your new home.

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<v Speaker 1>It's easy for people to move because there are people

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<v Speaker 1>who have had opportunities, so they don't to move in

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<v Speaker 1>illegal ways. They want to move in a way where

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<v Speaker 1>they know I will be able to get proper documentation

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<v Speaker 1>after a while. There's an opportunity for residency, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>an opportunity for citizenship. And also, anecdotally, one thing I

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<v Speaker 1>can say that makes me notice this trend is really happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Quite a few of the people who are even in

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<v Speaker 1>my own circle, of the people who are moving are

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<v Speaker 1>people who were educated even in the West. So it

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<v Speaker 1>means they went abroad, whether they went to Canada or

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<v Speaker 1>went to France, whether they were in the US, they

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<v Speaker 1>went abroad, studied and came back to the continent with

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<v Speaker 1>great hopes of what they could do when they came back.

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<v Speaker 1>So they didn't even try to stay at that time.

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<v Speaker 1>They didn't try to get residency or immigration or immigrant

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<v Speaker 1>at that stage. And then they've come back and after

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<v Speaker 1>five years, ten years, they've just filled their opportunities here

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<v Speaker 1>and not it's not what they expected, and so out

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<v Speaker 1>of frustration, they're taking all their amazing skills and their

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<v Speaker 1>experience and just trying to build a better life for

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<v Speaker 1>themselves and their families abroad. So I think it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>a real loss for the continent. I believe it's again

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<v Speaker 1>for the countries that get them, but it's really a

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<v Speaker 1>loss also for the continent well.

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<v Speaker 3>And it comes at a time where you mentioned the

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<v Speaker 3>population increase. There's also a lot more of a focus

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<v Speaker 3>on development on the continent and really a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>the industries that could power the future literally and figuratively.

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<v Speaker 2>But when we talk about.

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<v Speaker 3>Employment figures and the underemployment figures, I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how bad is it?

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<v Speaker 3>What are we looking at, especially when we factor in

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the people who are leaving and finding

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<v Speaker 3>opportunities elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 1>It varies country to country, but I would say youth

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<v Speaker 1>and employment rates are generally quite high across the continent,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're starting to lose people who have we definitely need,

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<v Speaker 1>like we're losing huge numbers of Nazis. We're losing huge

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<v Speaker 1>numbers of doctors, teachers, so highly engineers, so highly skilled

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<v Speaker 1>people who the continent really needs right now at this time.

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<v Speaker 1>An example I given the article was engineers. So there's

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<v Speaker 1>also a huge wave of migration among older engineers. So

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<v Speaker 1>right now, when the continent needs infrastructure, when it needs

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<v Speaker 1>people with all these expertise, you're having engineers who are

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<v Speaker 1>in their fifties, sixties, who have all this experience, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're choosing to move elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 2>That's surprising.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I wonder after you wrote this story, I

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<v Speaker 3>wonder what kind of did you get any feedback or

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<v Speaker 3>how are people responding to it?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a lot of the feedback I got was, first,

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<v Speaker 1>the one thing, no one is blaming anyone for leaving,

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<v Speaker 1>because there is an acknowledgment that patriotism, love of your country,

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<v Speaker 1>all those can only take you so far. At some point.

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<v Speaker 1>You want to make sure you know your children will

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<v Speaker 1>have great education opportunities. You want to have access to healthcare.

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<v Speaker 1>If you have aging parents, you want to know that

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<v Speaker 1>they'll be you know you'll be able to provide for

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<v Speaker 1>them deep into their old age. So there is an

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<v Speaker 1>acknowledgment that the people who are leaving no one is saying, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's so terrible of them to leave, but we are

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<v Speaker 1>knowwledging that it's terrible that the continent is losing these people.

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<v Speaker 1>I did get a few responses from people who have

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<v Speaker 1>left or japaed. I guess they told me, Oh, this

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<v Speaker 1>is my exact story, and it's the truth. I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>things to walk out. I tried everything when I was

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<v Speaker 1>in Kenya, Senega, Nigeria, Ghana. I tried everything to make

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<v Speaker 1>things work, and eventually I just realized that it can't

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<v Speaker 1>work for me there and I'm leaving. So there's also

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<v Speaker 1>that feeling and for the people who are leaving, it's bittersweet.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's fair.

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<v Speaker 3>Anywhere you go on the continent and talk to people,

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<v Speaker 3>there still is that patriotism.

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<v Speaker 2>SHEI could stay with us.

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<v Speaker 3>When we come back, we'll talk about what kind of

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<v Speaker 3>investment could help people to stay on the continent and.

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<v Speaker 2>Dig more into your reporting. We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome back today on the podcast, we are looking at

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<v Speaker 3>Africa's youth brain Drain and joining us is Bloomberg columnists

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<v Speaker 3>Chiku Kmeria.

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<v Speaker 2>She wrote a.

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<v Speaker 3>Really wonderful story that is now available if you haven't

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<v Speaker 3>read it, so she could. We did see President Biden

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<v Speaker 3>in Angola this week. Outgoing President Biden, I think we

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<v Speaker 3>should we should mention. He did make a number of

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<v Speaker 3>announcements about some of the investment that the US is

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<v Speaker 3>going to be committing to, at least for Africa and

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<v Speaker 3>for Angola in particular. But what kind of investment are

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<v Speaker 3>we talking about to potentially see a difference or a

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<v Speaker 3>shift in some of the trends of people leaving to

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<v Speaker 3>go elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think outgoing President Biden did say some very

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<v Speaker 1>interesting things during his visit.

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<v Speaker 4>We know African leaders and citizens are seeking more than

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<v Speaker 4>just aid, you seek investment. So the United States has

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<v Speaker 4>expanding our relationship all across Africa, from assistance to aid,

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<v Speaker 4>investment to trade coming from patrons to partners.

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<v Speaker 1>Aid is always going to be needed, even in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>even in developing countries. There's always going to be situations

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<v Speaker 1>where there's people who need They don't need loans, they

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<v Speaker 1>need grants, they need those benevolent funds that are coming in.

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<v Speaker 1>But he did acknowledge that Africa and US and other

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<v Speaker 1>partners should come to the table as equals. So even

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<v Speaker 1>when investors are coming to the continent. They should come

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<v Speaker 1>to the continent not with the mentality of your poor,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here to help you. They should come to the

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<v Speaker 1>table with the idea that we're business people. The opportunities

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<v Speaker 1>are here on the continent. There's the people who have

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<v Speaker 1>been running businesses, there's the entrepreneurs who have the networks

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<v Speaker 1>and everything, and maybe what they need is the financing.

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<v Speaker 1>So also acknowledging that it can be a win win

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<v Speaker 1>situation and that it should be a partnership. Another thing

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<v Speaker 1>I liked, especially about the little bit Or corridor project

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<v Speaker 1>that he was launching in Angola. We definitely need investments

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<v Speaker 1>that go into government and infrastructure, because infrastructure is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a huge backbone of development on the continent.

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<v Speaker 1>But we also need investments that's going into the private sector.

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<v Speaker 1>So when we're talking about infrastructure, it's true there's a

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<v Speaker 1>huge need on the continent for improved road, rail networks.

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<v Speaker 1>Even we're talking about like aviation. There's a huge potential

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<v Speaker 1>that could be unlocked if all these things were working

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<v Speaker 1>much better. But all the other hand, we also do

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<v Speaker 1>need that for the private sector because the formal sector

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<v Speaker 1>will never be able to incomparate that many people. But

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<v Speaker 1>you have to acknowledge that there's a lot of businesses

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<v Speaker 1>that are running, and they're running at a small scale,

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<v Speaker 1>but the ideas could be there. The ideas could be great,

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<v Speaker 1>and what they need is additional funding. I used to

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<v Speaker 1>be the Quite Africa editor and so we focus a

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<v Speaker 1>lot on technology and innovation, and one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>we noticed was that startup funding, even to Africa, as

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<v Speaker 1>much as it's increased over the past decades, it's still

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<v Speaker 1>such a miniscule figure. It's still so tiny how much

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<v Speaker 1>venture capital and all this funding comes into technology in

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<v Speaker 1>Africa versus in other places. But there's so many opportunities

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<v Speaker 1>here on the continent and so many startups that if

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<v Speaker 1>they just got those the seed frunding they got, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>if they got all that all that funding that goes

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<v Speaker 1>into startups globally, they could be able to change the

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<v Speaker 1>market and they could be able to also employ a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people.

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<v Speaker 3>Does that get to some of the other things that

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<v Speaker 3>you bring up in the piece about what could potentially

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<v Speaker 3>make a difference, I mean, what else would potentially push

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<v Speaker 3>the needle even more so.

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<v Speaker 1>Another thing that could that's definitely important is that the

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<v Speaker 1>governments need to make sure they're enablers, they're not making

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<v Speaker 1>additional constraints for businesses, because there is a mentality even

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<v Speaker 1>in my own country in Kenya that sometimes it's so

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<v Speaker 1>hard for people to get their businesses up, businesses running,

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<v Speaker 1>it's so hard for them to access financing. Then after

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<v Speaker 1>all that, many times they don't feel that the government

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<v Speaker 1>is their friend because you finally get your business running,

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<v Speaker 1>then taxes are being added on it. Then there's other

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<v Speaker 1>charges that are coming your way that make you have

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<v Speaker 1>to stop the business or lay off people. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think governments also need to acknowledge that a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>these jobs are going to be created by the private

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<v Speaker 1>sector and businesses, and they need to make an environment

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<v Speaker 1>that forced us their growth so that they don't they

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<v Speaker 1>don't hamstring them even just when they're at the stage

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<v Speaker 1>where they're trying to start up.

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<v Speaker 3>And you have a young daughter yourself, just talking about family,

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<v Speaker 3>have you thought about whether or not, you know, you'd

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<v Speaker 3>encourage her to build a career in Nairobi or anywhere

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<v Speaker 3>on the continent or what at all?

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<v Speaker 2>Have you thought about sort of her future?

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<v Speaker 1>Great, So my daughter is four, so I would say

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<v Speaker 1>I've not yet thought of her future career processs. But

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<v Speaker 1>what I would what I want is this. Sudan is

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<v Speaker 1>probably mentioned in the article which says we wish two

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<v Speaker 1>things for our children. One is roots and the other

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<v Speaker 1>is wings. So that's what I really hope for her.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish for her a world where she has her roots.

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<v Speaker 1>Her roots arend the African continent, but she also has

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<v Speaker 1>wings that will allow her to fly. But I also

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<v Speaker 1>hope that when it comes to the time of when

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<v Speaker 1>she's going to high school, university, or making future decisions,

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<v Speaker 1>I hope that if she's moving, it's because she wants to,

0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.240
<v Speaker 1>not because she's supposed to. On the lower level, they

0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.000
<v Speaker 1>are people who are getting into boats and crossing the Mediterranean,

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<v Speaker 1>risking their life just because things are so dire that

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<v Speaker 1>they're not working for them that they'd rather take the

0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:16.240
<v Speaker 1>chance of drowning than watching themselves and their families like

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<v Speaker 1>just staff today. And that's how dire the situation is

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<v Speaker 1>that for most people it's a question of survival, not

0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.839
<v Speaker 1>just this I have this option and this other option

0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 1>is better. But for many people it's really migration. Right now,

0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.360
<v Speaker 1>it seems to be their only opportunity for them to

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<v Speaker 1>put food on the table or to even enhance their lives.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't want that to be the future that

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<v Speaker 1>my daughter grows up in.

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<v Speaker 3>Hiku Ka Maria, thank you so much for joining us,

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<v Speaker 3>and you can of course read she Could's piece on Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 3>It is available right now. Here's a few other stories

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<v Speaker 3>we're watching in the region. This week, Ghana's inflation jumped

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<v Speaker 3>to a six month high at twenty three percent ahead

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<v Speaker 3>of the countries December seventh percentsidential elections. The cost of

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<v Speaker 3>living crisis will be a factor in the elections, with

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<v Speaker 3>voters angry with the government's handling of the economy expected

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<v Speaker 3>to result in opposition candidate John Mohamma being.

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<v Speaker 2>Elected the next leader of the West African.

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<v Speaker 3>Nation, and South Africa risks missing its twenty twenty four

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<v Speaker 3>economic growth forecast after the agricultural sector's deepest slump in

0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.719
<v Speaker 3>at least three decades led to an unexpected contraction in

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<v Speaker 3>the third quarter. The quarterly decline meant gross domestic product

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.959
<v Speaker 3>expanded a meager four tenths of a percent in the

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<v Speaker 3>nine months through September. Data published by Statistics South Africa

0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.720
<v Speaker 3>on Tuesday shows that suggests the National Treasury and the

0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.160
<v Speaker 3>South African Reserve Banks twenty twenty four.

0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 2>Growth estimates of one point one percent.

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<v Speaker 3>Will likely prove overly optimistic, and you can follow these

0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.280
<v Speaker 3>stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter where we

0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.440
<v Speaker 3>will have coverage of the Ganayan elections. Will put a

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:09.600
<v Speaker 3>link to that in the show notes. This program was

0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.840
<v Speaker 3>produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review

0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 3>this show wherever you usually get your podcasts.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.