WEBVTT - Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.080 Well, Happy Friday, and welcome to a special episode of 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.920 The Chuck Podcast. So today my guest is Frankly, one 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:15.680 of probably the when you think of great documentarians of 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.480 our times, I think there's really two that stand out. 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.840 There's Ken Burns and his documentaries on American history, and 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.840 there's Alex Gibney, who has done some just groundbreaking work 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:29.360 on society and culture. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:30.880 And he is out with. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:37.520 Frankly, two feature length documentaries, almost episodic, but they're both 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:40.159 two hour documentaries on HBO. 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:42.120 On dark money. 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.400 One is a very specific it's sort of it's very 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.479 much on sort of how dark money, this ability to 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.319 take big money in politics put launder it through an 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.720 organization you'd never heard of. You know, Oh, Iowans for 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:07.480 Love or Americans that love America and you know, thanks 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.800 to Citizens United, and you're gonna hear a lot about this. 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:14.200 The ability to spend big money on politics, move big money, 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.040 and do so more anonymously than ever has never been easier. 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.160 And I'll be honest, I'm somebody who's been a bit 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:22.600 of a skeptic of attempts to try to reform and 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.440 get money out of the system. You know, you know, 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:27.680 I'm one of those. I sort of bow at the 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.280 altar of Jeff Goldblum's character in Jurassic Park when the 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.160 old man is trying to tell you that he can 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.720 keep keep those dinosaurs from breeding because he made them 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:41.080 all female, and Goldbloom is playing the mathematician, the chaos 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:42.360 theory guy says. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:42.920 Life finds a way. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.280 Well, I've always felt that about money in politics, right, 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.560 money finds a way, And in fact, some of the 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.280 great reform efforts of our time have actually created the 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.080 disastrous situation that we're in today. McCain fine Gold, McCain 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.920 find gold has thought of as this great reform that 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.120 attempted to take big money out of political parties and 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.360 out of the system. But what all McCain Feinegeld ended 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.640 up doing is moving the money out of the political parties. 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:11.720 At the time one of the few places where there 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.760 was accountability, where they had to file it, had to 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.600 disclose that their donors were maybe not in this timely 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.280 of a fashion as people wanted to see, but they 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.800 could do it. And yes there was something called soft money, 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.720 but these people you still had to report where this 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.480 money came from. And so here was this incredible you know, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.639 this legislation that was monumental at the time, and all 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.480 it did was was sort of shift the money out 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.520 of political committees and out of the politicians' hands and 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:40.920 into these third party groups. 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:43.840 Now we call them super packs. 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.760 But there was different sort of tax code versions of 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.799 this five oh one seed threes, five four c's, things 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:56.880 like that, and it is it is taken. It is 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.400 essentially hidden the money in playite right. You know, we 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:03.639 generally know where this money comes from, but we now 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.119 don't find out when they do it through third party 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.560 networks and channels. You don't find out about it until 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.520 after an election. And so we've gone from an election 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:20.320 that if you're ready for this in two thousand, where collectively, 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:25.720 collectively Gore and Bush. 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:27.360 Spent this is just twenty five years ago. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.639 Collectively they spent about two hundred million dollars in their campaign. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.040 You know, two hundred million dollars is what Donald Trump 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.400 just raised for his inaugural fund. Okay, it is two 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.120 hundred million dollars is a good first quarter for a 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.520 general election presidential candidacy. We've now got you know, you know, 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.080 you now can legally give I think a million dollars 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.120 to a party individually these days, and you couldn't do 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.680 that before, let alone money. You can give to a 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.600 third party group your money and you never have to 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.440 disclose it, or you can do it through a foundation 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.360 and et cetera. So the point is that we really 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:02.000 do have. 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:02.960 A mess in our hands. 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.760 Alex Gibney will tell you it's Citizens United, and I 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.840 think there's no doubt that the unintended consequences of Citizens 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:13.440 United has certainly created this. The question is what do 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.040 we do about it? Because I do think we're in 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.960 a situation where money is consuming Look, my friend Tony Coenheiser, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.960 let's ease read all your listeners of of mister t 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.640 K out there, as he will tell you they answered, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.039 all your problems is money, and in many ways that 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.320 has become I think the north star of almost every 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:38.520 industry these days, whether it's sports, whether it's politics, whether 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:43.440 it's you know, anything in business, you know, employee issues, 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.360 whatever it is, right, the way out of a mess 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:53.479 is usually by by some financial contribution or distribution, but 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.880 there is you know, and in fact I think the 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.840 problem is there's a lot of well, my donors are 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.000 good donors. Your donors are bad donors. So this so 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.080 called good billionaires versus the bad billionaires. Well, one person's 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.960 bad billionaire is another person's political ally, and one person's 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.640 good billionaire is another person's political opponent. And so the 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:17.600 question is whether who should be manipulating the democracy right, 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:21.800 the voters, the majority or a handful of people with 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.680 their own motivations. And I'll tell you this man, I 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.200 will say, you know, Alex Gibney has two different feature 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.160 link films, but the one about Ohio it's like a caper, 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.560 and I don't want to spoil it. It's a scandal 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.120 that if you're in Ohio you probably are familiar with it. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:44.360 But essentially a candidate was able to take over an 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.159 entire state legislature. He was not even in office, and 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.760 he became speaker by recruit by essentially being able to 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:58.280 finance primary challengers in enough state legislative seats to make 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.080 sure he had the votes to become Beaker himself if 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.400 he too got elected. The point was, that's how easy 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.359 it was for essentially one company to write one check 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.880 and be able to get an entire legislature to flip 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.520 in their direction. This didn't flip parties, by the way, 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.080 just flipped having, you know, supporters of what they wanted 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.800 to get done, and when you realize how easy that 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.520 is now and you realize that the voter has been 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:26.960 cut out of this. You know, take the issue of 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.039 lobbying and one of the books that I've recommended and 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:30.760 people have asked me, you know, what's what's a good 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.560 book to understand how Washington works? And there's no one 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.839 book I have a I gave you five books in 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:38.760 a previous episode, but one of them is The Wolves 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.520 of k Street, written by Brody and Luke Mullins, two 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.040 reporter brothers. Brody Mullins a longtime investigative reporter for The 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.520 Wall Street Journal, colleague of mine back in my National 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:53.320 Journal days. And look, it's a great read. This is 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.520 not like a boring book about lobbying. It lobbyists are 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.320 characters and you know, a good Let me just put 0:06:59.320 --> 0:06:59.680 it this way. 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:01.240 The brothers are good storytellers. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.640 But there's an essential thing, that conclusion that comes out 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.320 of it that to me is really striking, which is, 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.360 you know, when the lobbying industry first became a big deal, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.240 it was in the seventies and it was really thanks 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.920 to Ralph Nator. Ralph Nator was sort of the you know, 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.680 had a very successful time becoming a citizen lobbyist of sorts. 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.920 Started Public Citizen and the pergs, both US PERG and 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.680 state level pergs, Mass PERG, Florida PERG, Colorado PERG, et cetera, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.200 et cetera, and they were, you know, and they were 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.720 having some success at sort of getting government to either 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.840 regulate big business or push big business to be more 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.440 consumer friendly, you know. You know, it was thanks to 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.960 the pergs that got people to not have to wait 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.600 a week before their paychecks would actually get cashed by 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.520 the banks. Banks used to be able to hold your 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.400 money for a week before you had access to it 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.840 in your checking account, and they helped speed that up 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.600 to one to three. 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:58.040 Days, you know. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.880 And now, of course it's it's it's instantaneous on those things, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:03.760 but there was a time where banks got to hold 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.720 your money and it took citizens complaining together. So obviously 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.160 Nator is most famous for unsafe at any speed, the 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.160 infamous coveyor with the seatbelts. And without him we wouldn't 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.880 have airbags and seatbelts and all those things. Right, Well, 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.120 corporations thought, well, hey, if he could do that, we'll 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.400 start We'll hire our own lobbyists. And for the seventies 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.720 and eighties and nineties there were sort of citizen lobbying 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.680 groups and corporate lobbying groups, and they were often on 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.680 opposing sides. Well, in the last twenty five years things 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:36.640 have gotten so perverted and gamified that there's very few 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:41.080 citizen lobbyists anymore or citizen advocacy groups that have do 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.679 successful lobbying. There's some, don't get me wrong, they still exist. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.239 But now what you really have is big businesses, sometimes 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.640 on opposite size, trying to manipulate government so that a 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:58.000 regulation doesn't hurt their business but hurts somebody one of 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.640 their competitors. So now you have armies of lobbyists essentially 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.800 out opposing sides, nobody worrying about the average voter. The 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:12.640 point is it is, look, money has obviously corrupted the system, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.760 I mean massively. And when you look at what Donald 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.120 Trump is doing with this meme coin, which is just 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.240 a blatant bribery scam in plain sight. Okay, let's not. 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.079 It is absolutely that right. He puts out an announcement 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.000 that says, hey, I'm going to have dinner with the 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:28.760 top whatever it is. 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:30.960 Of his meme hold holders. So what does it do? 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.920 More people buy the coins so they can get access 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.400 to the president. You know, his club at mar A 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.600 Lago is a legalized bribe, right. He raised the price 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.280 after he became president. He doubled the cost of membership 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.280 of mar A Lago. And what does he do? Basically, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.640 people now know they just buy a membership of mar 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.240 A Lago and they get access to the president and 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.800 likely the president's aids and likely all the cabinets. This 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:58.320 is this is this is basically legalized bribery and plain sight, right, 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.480 and there really is no other than thickle standards. There's 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.199 no legal way to stop this. And you know, I'm 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.720 old enough to remember when a lot of Republicans were 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:13.040 outraged when Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton hosted fundraiser, you know, 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.480 coffees in the White House where they didn't they were 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.400 essentially giving people access to the White House so they 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:19.520 could ask for money later. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.240 And there was a lot of people uncomfortable with that. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.240 And you know, boy, I think we all long for 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.760 the days when that was the scandal when it came 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.320 to money in politics, and now it's it's on a 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.199 whole other level. And I do think we've become numb unfortunately. 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:37.560 And this is where I'm I am, I am not. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.280 I don't have a great answer in what works. I 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:46.079 think I fall into disclosure, disclosure, disclosure and limiting and 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.760 instant you know, and the transparency. I'm for the nascarization 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.880 of money in politics, meaning I think we should allow 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.719 unlimited donations to candidates, but we shouldn't be able to 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.760 have super PACs and third party groups. Fine, you want 0:10:57.800 --> 0:10:59.120 to be a candidate for office, you want to take 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.040 a billion dollar check for Elon Musk. The only requirement 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.400 is that every TV ad you run you have to 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.560 say that I'm Joshmengi and this ad was paid for 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.679 by Elon Musk and this person and this person, right, 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.120 anybody that gave you, say over two hundred and fifty 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.760 thousand dollars. You've got to actually name check them all 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:18.840 the time. You've got to say who you're paid for. 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.320 You've got to wear their logo, if you will, just 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.199 like NASCAR drivers where the logos of their sponsors, you've 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.520 got to wear the logos of your donors. You've got 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.960 to say their name all the time. And here's the thing. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.400 If you did that, I promise you most donors would 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.040 come up. You know, I've got a friend of mine 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.120 who regularly gives donations, but he always gives it in 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.440 to federal candidates, but only he only gives one hundred 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.480 ninety nine dollars at a time. And you know why 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.280 only give one hundred ninety nine dollars at a time, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.719 because he doesn't have to You can, you can take 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.600 anonymous donations under two hundred dollars, but any donation you'd 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.720 take in a federal campaign of two hundred dollars or more, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.160 you've got to identify who in the FEC database, in 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.080 the federal election database, who gave you, everybody who wrote 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.800 you a check or sent you money of two hundred 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.360 dollars or more. So I do believe those thresholds you 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.400 could you sort of can create market incentives to prevent 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.720 sort of you know, certain things, so unlimited contributions, but 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.960 if they give you more than a ninety ninety nine dollars, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.040 you've got to name check them all of your paid advertising, 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.760 all the time, not just once, not just sort of 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.200 in a small print at the bottom, you know where 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.360 you see that. Sometimes democratic mailers will have to let 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.800 you know, the union paid for to when you look carefully, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.520 these super PACs paid for by Americans who love Americans. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:36.880 Who the hell is that group? Right? 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.720 That's the that's the sort of the misinformation money We've 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.920 got to get out of politics. I think what Americans 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:51.600 accept is competition, transparent competition. And so ultimately I'm a 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.719 Sunshine guy. I believe transparent s with speech. I don't 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.679 know if we can limit speech. I believe good speech 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.520 will drown out bad speech. In this case, I'm hopeful 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.920 that Sunshine can do this. But I understand the frustration, 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.120 and I know some well meaning people who think we 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:13.240 should have you know, maybe they publicly funded campaigns. The 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.319 problem with that is that either you're everything's publicly funded 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.040 or none of it is. You can't sort of go 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.720 half in and half out. And whenever we've played with 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.240 public funding, there's always a mechanism to go around it, right, 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.760 And of course wealthier candidates or popular candidates who can 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:29.920 raise a ton of money have been. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:30.360 Able to do that. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.960 So there, you know, whatever it is, I think we've 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:35.600 got to come up with a system that does a 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:36.319 couple of things. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.920 Number one is prevents dark money. That you just can't 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:39.200 do this. 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.000 I don't believe if you want to get involved in 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.239 anything funded by American taxpayers, you don't get to be anonymous. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.800 I'm sorry, and I know the argument for anonymous money is, well, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.439 it might be on you know that the person giving 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.880 the money, you know, doesn't want the blowback. Well, then 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.959 don't get involved in politics, right if you're trying to 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.680 manipulate the system in your favor. You know, the price 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.640 of it mission is public disclosure. And if it's not 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.480 important enough to you for you to publicly disclose yourself, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.679 then okay, then you do. You're not participating. You get 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.679 an option to do it. But disclosure is the price 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.440 to essentially buy a member of Congress by a US 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:19.840 senator or by a president. But the way we're doing 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.720 it now, which is a sort of open, you know, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:27.960 and it is sort of in some ways, we've made 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.280 it where, you know, there's an old joke. I think 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.760 it's Ever Dirkson that said this, you know, a millionaire 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.440 and a millionaire, and eventually you have real money, and 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.160 it's like it's a billionaire and a billionaire, and eventually, 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.320 you know, we're starting to talk about real money. But 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.600 I think there's certainly the cynicism that's out there, the 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:48.280 distrust of politicians and politics all centers around how important 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.120 money has become in manipulating the system. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:51.480 And so. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.600 I do think the only way you can get because 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.200 right now, anytime you try to limit money, limit donations 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.840 in different ways, one party belo it's going to hurt 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:02.600 them more than the other, and so then you get 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.400 sort of a part of everybody gets into their partisan 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:09.880 corners about the issue. Ultimately, I think transparency is one 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.000 of those things that everybody should be for. You know, 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.840 I'm old enough to remember when Mitch McConnell, who was 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.080 a big opponent of McCain fine gold, his alternative solution 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:17.200 was instant disclosure. 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.080 I think people should run with instant disclosure. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.200 I'm surprised campaign reform advocates today aren't saying, yes, what 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.400 Mitch McConnell introduced twenty five years ago. It's that and 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:31.160 then some. But the bottom line is, we know we 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.800 have to do something about this. There aren't a lot 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.240 of easy answers citizens United. You know, if you want 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.440 to make the argument that corporations also can go into 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.400 free speech, fine, but we've got to know you're the 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.200 ones buying this speech. If you want free speech, you 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:52.880 shouldn't be able to hide while exercising your free speech. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:59.480 If you want access to the public debate, you're more 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.320 than welcome to do it, but you've got to show 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.560 your face. You've got to disclose that it's your money 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:08.680 doing it. Corporation A or Corporation Y. So, And in fact, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.280 I do think that's the that's the least partisan solution 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:18.880 that might actually have some some effort at at least 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:23.000 slowing down the growth of influence of money and politics. 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.920 So that's the Chuck Todd solution there, which is the 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:31.760 nascarization of politics. Where are your donors? If you will 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.320 show us your donors, put them on your jacket, have to, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.120 you know, stand by your donors. You're welcome to as 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.480 big of a donation as you want, but you've got 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.640 to let the public know I'm bought and paid for 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:44.600 by these people. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:46.480 I promise you. 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.880 If that's the law, people will want to limit how 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:54.040 much they want to be associated with an individual political candidate, 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.600 or whether that candidate wants to be associated by in 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.440 that kind of for that kind of price, with any indie, visual, 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.720 corporate or billionaire interests. So with that, I hope you 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.239 enjoy this conversation. Again, Alex Gibney, He's been on this 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:12.800 beat a long time, and like I said, I've I've 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.840 been I've been a cynic myself on what is realistic 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.560 when it comes to regulating money in politics. But when 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.040 you see this story about this Ohio scandal and how 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:29.920 easy it was to manipulate essentially an entire state legislature 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.640 in one election cycle, our system is broken and we're 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.080 going to have to figure out how to fix it. 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.640 So with that, enjoy this conversation. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:47.000 All right. 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.119 Enjoining me now is Alex Gibney. Right now, He's got 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:56.120 two whether we call it an episodic series or two 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:00.639 feature length documentaries, but The Dark Money Game has debuted 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:06.359 this month on HBO with back to back feature length 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.760 documentaries essentially on the corruption on how the corruption of 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.119 money in politics. And you may say, don't roll your 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.399 eyes at me on this one, money in politics, and 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.239 trust me, I can get cynical too, and I get it. 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:23.080 But what Alex Gibney does, and money's always been a 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.000 through line for him, But in general, what he does 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:29.359 is he tackles in many ways tackles some of the 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:34.480 more complicated subjects that we have to deal with in society, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.040 and he makes it watchable, he makes it digestible, he 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.760 makes it accessible. And let me tell you, I think 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.920 dark money, which is a story we can't we journalists 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.000 haven't done a good job telling. We've tried, we haven't 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.439 made it as compelling to the voter as it should be. 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.520 I will say this, I think this is the best 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:58.359 attempt I've seen yet trying to get people to understand 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.320 how corrosive this is become to our political system. Alex 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:03.919 Gibney joins me. Now, Alex, good. 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:04.560 To see you. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:05.480 Good to see you, Chuck. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.440 I want to start with this larger issue of trying 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.080 to take the scandalous nature of money in politics right now, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.040 which is I would argue it's been somewhat of a 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:19.439 I don't want to call it a through line in 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.880 your work, because you've you do a you can get 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.080 into a variety of things. But this is not the 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.080 first time you've tackled money in politics in your various documentaries. 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:33.360 You've tackled it before. This felt like, you know, it's 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.080 like it's like we always say no, no, no, no. This 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.520 is really bad. And yet no, no, no, no, now 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.879 it's worse. And the dark money, the five oh one C. 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:43.960 Four is the fact that we can hide money now 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.720 in ways in this post citizens United World is really complicated, 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.520 and you decided you found, I think, a more compelling 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:55.719 way to tell the story. But just in general, how 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.360 much of a challenge is it to make this campaign 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.760 finance issue accessible to the general public. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:05.199 It's hugely challenging, and I think in part because of 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.160 what you outlined earlier. In other words, we're all cynical about, oh, 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.920 sure there's money in politics, we get it, but. 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:11.480 We don't really. 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.280 There's that great set line from an old senator ever Dirkson, 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.320 a billionare and a billion there, and eventually you get 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.280 get to real money, right, you know, it was, And 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:21.960 it feels that way sometimes in campaign finance. Oh he's 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.360 got a billionaire super pack, he's got a billionaire super pac, 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.600 and we all just sort of, you know, roll our eyes. 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.919 Yeah, but I don't think we really get it in 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.760 terms of where it's got to at this point and 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:37.320 exactly how it works. And so that's why and I 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.640 had done this, you know, I'd been on this beat 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:41.840 for a while some years ago. I did a film 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.960 called Casino Jack in the United States of Money, and 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.880 it was about disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff, who I give 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:50.680 a sort of tip of the hat. 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.800 To in Ohio potential, but. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.560 That one was not that did not break through because 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.080 it people are like lobbyists money. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:00.760 I'm saying. 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.399 What people need to understand is that we've created a 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.840 system of legalized bribery. And I think most people don't 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:14.000 really understand. Most people get emotionally the idea of a 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.360 bribe and they're deeply offended by it. So if we 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:23.120 replace campaign finance with legalized bribery, now we're talking. Now 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.080 we're talking about true crime, and we're talking about the 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.560 real problem, which is a few people getting advantage over 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.800 the rest of us, and they're the ones who are 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.240 insisting that the policies work for them, not us. 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.160