1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,904 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,984 --> 00:00:22,104 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,704 --> 00:00:24,144 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'shay. We have over. 6 00:00:23,984 --> 00:00:27,384 Speaker 3: Sixty years of experience as clandestine officers in the CIA, 7 00:00:27,584 --> 00:00:29,744 Speaker 3: serving in high risk areas all around the. 8 00:00:29,664 --> 00:00:33,144 Speaker 2: World, and part of our job was creating conspiracies to 9 00:00:33,263 --> 00:00:34,544 Speaker 2: deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,824 --> 00:00:37,543 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,584 --> 00:00:40,464 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of 12 00:00:40,504 --> 00:00:41,304 Speaker 3: you may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,384 --> 00:00:43,623 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,744 --> 00:00:51,264 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Today, we're joined 15 00:00:51,304 --> 00:00:54,504 Speaker 3: by Adam Todd Brown. He's a writer, comedian and host 16 00:00:54,544 --> 00:00:57,743 Speaker 3: of You Don't Even Like This Show and Unpopular Opinion. 17 00:00:58,184 --> 00:01:00,664 Speaker 3: Adam's done a lot of thinking about why people believe 18 00:01:00,744 --> 00:01:04,944 Speaker 3: wild things and how grifters and media personalities turn paranoia 19 00:01:04,984 --> 00:01:08,144 Speaker 3: into profit. So today we're talking about the business of 20 00:01:08,224 --> 00:01:11,864 Speaker 3: conspiracies and how mission information spreads and how humor can 21 00:01:11,904 --> 00:01:13,744 Speaker 3: actually help diffuse the madness. 22 00:01:13,944 --> 00:01:16,703 Speaker 2: And it's great, haven't you. And it's not often we 23 00:01:16,824 --> 00:01:20,104 Speaker 2: get to meet with somebody who like deals with conspiracies 24 00:01:20,544 --> 00:01:22,743 Speaker 2: more than we hit right, you've seen you like you've 25 00:01:22,744 --> 00:01:24,703 Speaker 2: done them all. But I want to throw I want 26 00:01:24,703 --> 00:01:26,664 Speaker 2: to throw a startup by throwing a curveball at you. 27 00:01:27,143 --> 00:01:31,864 Speaker 2: Let's talk about bugs at least bugs, okay, bugs eating 28 00:01:31,904 --> 00:01:35,223 Speaker 2: bugs and one of the straightest conspiracies. And what I 29 00:01:35,264 --> 00:01:37,904 Speaker 2: haven't heard you really talk on yet, and this is 30 00:01:37,944 --> 00:01:42,624 Speaker 2: a real thing. Talk Carlson and his last show before 31 00:01:42,624 --> 00:01:45,984 Speaker 2: he got fired from Fox, was talking about this conspiracy 32 00:01:46,024 --> 00:01:50,104 Speaker 2: theory that the global elite is trying to get people 33 00:01:50,264 --> 00:01:54,064 Speaker 2: to eat bugs. And apparently there's some real there's some 34 00:01:54,424 --> 00:01:57,663 Speaker 2: real facts to it. So the European Union has has 35 00:01:57,744 --> 00:02:01,184 Speaker 2: now okayed eating mealworm like ground up meal worm. They've 36 00:02:01,184 --> 00:02:03,984 Speaker 2: agreed that mealworm can be put into four percent of 37 00:02:04,104 --> 00:02:08,543 Speaker 2: bread products. And the conspiracy that's built around this, both 38 00:02:08,584 --> 00:02:12,824 Speaker 2: in the US and online and even bigger in Europe, 39 00:02:13,184 --> 00:02:17,224 Speaker 2: is that the deep state, the global elites trying to 40 00:02:17,464 --> 00:02:22,104 Speaker 2: enslave the population. We are trying to get them used 41 00:02:22,384 --> 00:02:24,744 Speaker 2: to eating bugs, and this is going to be part 42 00:02:24,784 --> 00:02:26,584 Speaker 2: of the soilent green of the future. 43 00:02:26,864 --> 00:02:29,704 Speaker 4: I have never heard that particular. 44 00:02:30,144 --> 00:02:32,344 Speaker 2: At least CIA is not, as far as I can tell, 45 00:02:32,504 --> 00:02:34,744 Speaker 2: is not involved in the bug eating conspiracy. 46 00:02:34,984 --> 00:02:38,464 Speaker 4: Yeah, that doesn't sound like CIA business at all. 47 00:02:38,864 --> 00:02:39,144 Speaker 2: Yeah. 48 00:02:39,184 --> 00:02:44,184 Speaker 4: I'm always curious whenever a conspiracy theory makes it to oh, 49 00:02:44,184 --> 00:02:47,224 Speaker 4: they're trying to enslave us all. Yeah, I would need 50 00:02:47,544 --> 00:02:51,664 Speaker 4: a little more explanation to understand that. I do think 51 00:02:51,704 --> 00:02:57,344 Speaker 4: there is probably some future in eating bugs, and I 52 00:02:57,344 --> 00:02:59,744 Speaker 4: think we should probably just embrace it. 53 00:03:00,224 --> 00:03:03,544 Speaker 2: And how have you fallen into conspiracy theories and debunking them? 54 00:03:03,624 --> 00:03:07,344 Speaker 4: Weirdly, the thing that first got me into conspiracy theories 55 00:03:07,624 --> 00:03:11,784 Speaker 4: was rap music in the nineties. I especially back then, 56 00:03:11,824 --> 00:03:15,544 Speaker 4: I was listening to a lot of rap music and 57 00:03:16,104 --> 00:03:19,024 Speaker 4: the New World Order was a big talking point with 58 00:03:19,464 --> 00:03:22,384 Speaker 4: rappers in the nineties. And this was back at a 59 00:03:22,464 --> 00:03:25,104 Speaker 4: point in time when you could walk in Barnes and 60 00:03:25,104 --> 00:03:28,504 Speaker 4: Noble and they would just have a conspiracy theory section. 61 00:03:28,904 --> 00:03:32,944 Speaker 4: They would have like cliff notes versions of conspiracy theories 62 00:03:33,344 --> 00:03:37,664 Speaker 4: and just I think curiosity is what got me into 63 00:03:37,744 --> 00:03:38,824 Speaker 4: it at first. 64 00:03:39,144 --> 00:03:42,624 Speaker 2: So when John and I were younger, conspiracy theories were 65 00:03:42,664 --> 00:03:46,024 Speaker 2: mostly on the left in politics, and now I think 66 00:03:46,064 --> 00:03:48,264 Speaker 2: it's fair to say, although there's still some on the left, 67 00:03:48,264 --> 00:03:50,784 Speaker 2: their part and parcel of the right. And I notice, 68 00:03:51,144 --> 00:03:55,504 Speaker 2: for example, things like you know, Trump threatening to invade 69 00:03:55,584 --> 00:03:59,744 Speaker 2: Nigeria right built off conspiracy theories more clearly and more 70 00:03:59,744 --> 00:04:04,224 Speaker 2: insidiously that we just had an election here and California passed, 71 00:04:04,264 --> 00:04:07,304 Speaker 2: you know, its redistricting law. But Trump immediately come out 72 00:04:07,344 --> 00:04:09,304 Speaker 2: and said, and his part of the party said, the 73 00:04:09,304 --> 00:04:13,024 Speaker 2: elections are rigged. So it's a conspiracy theory for which 74 00:04:13,064 --> 00:04:16,263 Speaker 2: they have no evidence. And yet people, if you're on 75 00:04:16,303 --> 00:04:17,664 Speaker 2: the team, you have to say it. You have to 76 00:04:17,704 --> 00:04:20,224 Speaker 2: at least pretend you believe it or maybe believe it. 77 00:04:20,464 --> 00:04:23,704 Speaker 4: Well, for an outfit like the Trump administration, it's a 78 00:04:23,743 --> 00:04:28,703 Speaker 4: great way to cast blame on the failures of your 79 00:04:28,984 --> 00:04:34,183 Speaker 4: policies on this vague enemy in this case leftists just 80 00:04:34,584 --> 00:04:37,544 Speaker 4: in general, which that is going to describe anyone who 81 00:04:37,544 --> 00:04:41,023 Speaker 4: didn't vote for Trump eventually. But I think that's what 82 00:04:41,344 --> 00:04:44,664 Speaker 4: they use it for, is scapegoating and saying, no, the 83 00:04:44,704 --> 00:04:49,143 Speaker 4: economy's actually not failing, so it's just something for them 84 00:04:49,383 --> 00:04:53,664 Speaker 4: to hide behind. And I gotta imagine those are kind 85 00:04:53,743 --> 00:04:57,224 Speaker 4: of the only people left when it comes to who's 86 00:04:57,264 --> 00:05:01,583 Speaker 4: still supporting Trump, because I know, we want to believe 87 00:05:01,623 --> 00:05:06,023 Speaker 4: every Trump supporter is just a crazy right wing conspiracy theorist. 88 00:05:06,024 --> 00:05:08,063 Speaker 4: I think there are some people who voted for him 89 00:05:08,144 --> 00:05:10,504 Speaker 4: because we're broke and we thought he was going to 90 00:05:10,584 --> 00:05:14,583 Speaker 4: fix it, and he lied. So for those people, conspiracy 91 00:05:14,623 --> 00:05:18,864 Speaker 4: theories are perfect because that explains everything to them. They 92 00:05:18,863 --> 00:05:21,943 Speaker 4: don't need to ask why everyone else in the country 93 00:05:21,984 --> 00:05:25,664 Speaker 4: is so upset. It's because Democrats are perpetrating a fraud. 94 00:05:25,984 --> 00:05:26,544 Speaker 4: That's why. 95 00:05:26,664 --> 00:05:30,464 Speaker 3: Do you see any meaningful differences between the conspiracy culture, say, 96 00:05:30,503 --> 00:05:32,944 Speaker 3: of the nineteen nineties with UFOs and X files and 97 00:05:33,024 --> 00:05:36,904 Speaker 3: JFK stuff, to today's version of q QAnon and five 98 00:05:37,024 --> 00:05:38,384 Speaker 3: G and vaccines and all that. 99 00:05:38,664 --> 00:05:41,424 Speaker 4: I think it's It's always been part of the culture, 100 00:05:41,464 --> 00:05:45,024 Speaker 4: but there's no denying that it's getting more dangerous now. 101 00:05:45,383 --> 00:05:49,984 Speaker 4: It's being weaponized, I think in really dangerous ways, because 102 00:05:50,264 --> 00:05:54,104 Speaker 4: in a lot of ways, conspiracy theories have always just 103 00:05:54,183 --> 00:05:59,863 Speaker 4: been government dissent and questioning the government, and it seems 104 00:05:59,984 --> 00:06:03,183 Speaker 4: like that used to be fine, and it is increasingly 105 00:06:03,464 --> 00:06:05,863 Speaker 4: increasingly becoming less and less fine. 106 00:06:06,183 --> 00:06:08,183 Speaker 3: Well, one part of the government is saying the other 107 00:06:08,183 --> 00:06:10,024 Speaker 3: part of the government, like the government, parts of the 108 00:06:10,063 --> 00:06:13,023 Speaker 3: governor are using conspiracy theories to attack other parts of 109 00:06:13,024 --> 00:06:13,944 Speaker 3: the government they don't like. 110 00:06:14,063 --> 00:06:18,104 Speaker 4: And I think that's pretty common. I think it really 111 00:06:18,183 --> 00:06:21,743 Speaker 4: just ebbs and flows with what party is in office. 112 00:06:22,104 --> 00:06:25,144 Speaker 4: And if you're on the side that's questioning the government, 113 00:06:25,303 --> 00:06:29,183 Speaker 4: you're a conspiracy theorist to the people who believe the government. 114 00:06:29,344 --> 00:06:33,224 Speaker 4: It's a great tactic. It really keeps us divided in 115 00:06:33,264 --> 00:06:34,743 Speaker 4: a very profound way. 116 00:06:35,063 --> 00:06:38,384 Speaker 2: It works, but it only works if you've got like 117 00:06:38,623 --> 00:06:40,664 Speaker 2: short term memory. It seems to me in a lot 118 00:06:40,664 --> 00:06:43,183 Speaker 2: of ways. But if you cast your mind back just 119 00:06:43,264 --> 00:06:47,224 Speaker 2: a couple of years when Obamacare, when ACA was coming up, 120 00:06:47,503 --> 00:06:50,584 Speaker 2: there with the death tribunals, remember that they are going 121 00:06:50,664 --> 00:06:53,464 Speaker 2: to have a tribunal who's going to decide whether or 122 00:06:53,544 --> 00:06:56,664 Speaker 2: not to kill grandma. So here we are eight ten 123 00:06:56,743 --> 00:07:00,104 Speaker 2: years later, there's no death tribunals. Nobody's bumping off Gramma 124 00:07:00,144 --> 00:07:03,743 Speaker 2: on fixed. The ACA is actually keeping people alive and 125 00:07:03,743 --> 00:07:07,904 Speaker 2: giving people healthcare that they normally wouldn't have. And yet 126 00:07:08,183 --> 00:07:10,944 Speaker 2: the death care tribunal was something that they rolled out, 127 00:07:11,624 --> 00:07:15,023 Speaker 2: used effectively, and then basically forgot about. So it's like 128 00:07:15,144 --> 00:07:18,384 Speaker 2: it never happened, and yet they and yet the you know, 129 00:07:18,424 --> 00:07:20,384 Speaker 2: the impact of that is still there. 130 00:07:20,664 --> 00:07:25,224 Speaker 4: There's a really interesting book out there called The Authoritarians. 131 00:07:25,464 --> 00:07:29,024 Speaker 4: It's since been updated because of Trump. There's a new 132 00:07:29,144 --> 00:07:32,583 Speaker 4: version called The Authoritarian Nightmare. But it's a book you 133 00:07:32,624 --> 00:07:35,664 Speaker 4: can get. It's available free online as a PDF. It's 134 00:07:35,664 --> 00:07:40,984 Speaker 4: called The Authoritarians. This professor at I believe McGill University 135 00:07:41,104 --> 00:07:46,104 Speaker 4: in Toronto for fifteen years or so gave every incoming 136 00:07:46,264 --> 00:07:51,224 Speaker 4: freshman this survey. And he was a psychology professor, and 137 00:07:51,424 --> 00:07:54,624 Speaker 4: it was meant to determine not only what kind of 138 00:07:54,744 --> 00:07:59,023 Speaker 4: people are more likely to follow an authoritarian leader, but 139 00:07:59,464 --> 00:08:04,104 Speaker 4: what percentage of us and what are their characteristics. And 140 00:08:04,424 --> 00:08:06,984 Speaker 4: one of the things they found that people who follow 141 00:08:07,184 --> 00:08:13,344 Speaker 4: someone like Trump just special is compartmentalized thinking. So to them, 142 00:08:13,624 --> 00:08:17,944 Speaker 4: the tribunals in anything that's happening now, they're completely separate. 143 00:08:18,064 --> 00:08:21,784 Speaker 4: Even if they are literally saying the same thing about 144 00:08:21,864 --> 00:08:25,384 Speaker 4: two different parties, like with your most ardent Trump supporters, 145 00:08:25,424 --> 00:08:28,944 Speaker 4: that's not gonna register. It's an ends justify the means 146 00:08:29,224 --> 00:08:32,463 Speaker 4: kind of thing. And I think we've really hit the 147 00:08:32,504 --> 00:08:37,304 Speaker 4: point where trying to call Trump supporters on their i 148 00:08:37,304 --> 00:08:41,464 Speaker 4: don't know, being hypocritical about things, or flip flopping on things, 149 00:08:41,583 --> 00:08:45,304 Speaker 4: or saying, well a dissonance, yeah, yeah, it, I think 150 00:08:45,424 --> 00:08:48,944 Speaker 4: is really a thing that's not even worth addressing if 151 00:08:48,984 --> 00:08:52,264 Speaker 4: you find yourself in a conversation with one of those people, 152 00:08:52,304 --> 00:08:54,704 Speaker 4: because it doesn't work that way for them. There is 153 00:08:54,784 --> 00:08:56,864 Speaker 4: no well you said this, but also you said this. 154 00:08:57,304 --> 00:09:00,184 Speaker 4: I think they just don't think of the world that way. 155 00:09:00,343 --> 00:09:02,864 Speaker 3: I mean, you've worked in media for years. It's correct. 156 00:09:02,904 --> 00:09:05,944 Speaker 3: In your podcast, you're writing, how do you think media, 157 00:09:06,064 --> 00:09:10,304 Speaker 3: whether it's traditional or independent, unintentionally fuels can thinking. 158 00:09:10,504 --> 00:09:12,824 Speaker 4: But I think it depends on what half of the 159 00:09:12,944 --> 00:09:17,464 Speaker 4: media you're talking about, because I think, definitely on the right, 160 00:09:17,664 --> 00:09:21,624 Speaker 4: conspiracy theory stuff just being treated as actual news, and 161 00:09:21,664 --> 00:09:25,744 Speaker 4: it like it's leading to some really crazy thinking among 162 00:09:25,784 --> 00:09:28,464 Speaker 4: people on the right. I saw an Instagram video the 163 00:09:28,463 --> 00:09:30,463 Speaker 4: other day. A guy was just at a Trump rally 164 00:09:30,784 --> 00:09:34,624 Speaker 4: asking questions and he asked this person something about abortion, 165 00:09:34,824 --> 00:09:37,944 Speaker 4: and this guy looks him in the eyes and says, well, 166 00:09:37,984 --> 00:09:40,384 Speaker 4: you know, in California, abortion is legal up to four 167 00:09:40,424 --> 00:09:43,983 Speaker 4: weeks after birth. So someone is out there feeding this 168 00:09:44,103 --> 00:09:48,744 Speaker 4: man this information that you can kill babies in California 169 00:09:48,864 --> 00:09:50,704 Speaker 4: up to four weeks if you don't like how it 170 00:09:50,784 --> 00:09:54,744 Speaker 4: turned out, and they're believing that, and I think it's 171 00:09:54,944 --> 00:09:58,584 Speaker 4: just bubbles. I think it's well, I only trust the 172 00:09:58,664 --> 00:10:02,583 Speaker 4: Tennessee Star, or there's all these local media outlets now 173 00:10:02,624 --> 00:10:06,383 Speaker 4: that are just right wing mouthpieces that look like they're 174 00:10:06,424 --> 00:10:11,383 Speaker 4: just legitimate news outlets. And I think though, on the 175 00:10:11,463 --> 00:10:14,144 Speaker 4: other side, I think so much of what they do 176 00:10:14,223 --> 00:10:18,304 Speaker 4: relies on government access and being able to get in 177 00:10:18,384 --> 00:10:21,304 Speaker 4: the room with the people to hear the government side 178 00:10:21,544 --> 00:10:25,264 Speaker 4: of the story. But it's to the point that they 179 00:10:25,304 --> 00:10:27,864 Speaker 4: rely on that access so much it seems like they 180 00:10:27,904 --> 00:10:31,944 Speaker 4: don't really want to push big questions because then government 181 00:10:31,984 --> 00:10:33,064 Speaker 4: won't talk to me anymore. 182 00:10:44,904 --> 00:10:48,383 Speaker 2: So like terms right and left, it came out of 183 00:10:48,424 --> 00:10:52,784 Speaker 2: the French Revolution where different factions sat in their new 184 00:10:53,144 --> 00:10:54,664 Speaker 2: parliament if you say it, to the right or to 185 00:10:54,703 --> 00:10:57,064 Speaker 2: the left, and then it developed from there, so we 186 00:10:57,144 --> 00:10:59,584 Speaker 2: hit we still use as terms right and left, but 187 00:11:00,103 --> 00:11:04,223 Speaker 2: I know people who are right of center Republicans who 188 00:11:04,223 --> 00:11:06,503 Speaker 2: are not trumpest at all. And I'm wondering, do you 189 00:11:06,583 --> 00:11:09,024 Speaker 2: think it's fair to even to talk about right and 190 00:11:09,144 --> 00:11:12,144 Speaker 2: left anymore? Where I think maybe we have right left 191 00:11:12,504 --> 00:11:15,864 Speaker 2: and like a cult or within our lifetime there was 192 00:11:15,984 --> 00:11:19,624 Speaker 2: like Democrat Republican and then George Wallace ran if you 193 00:11:19,624 --> 00:11:22,224 Speaker 2: remember that right sort of part of the racist part, 194 00:11:22,264 --> 00:11:25,304 Speaker 2: and that was pretty culty built around anti segregation and 195 00:11:25,304 --> 00:11:28,144 Speaker 2: a lot of conspiracy theories from down South. And are 196 00:11:28,223 --> 00:11:31,264 Speaker 2: we do right and left even serve us these days? 197 00:11:31,343 --> 00:11:32,944 Speaker 2: Or have we've gotten beyond that? Oh? 198 00:11:32,984 --> 00:11:36,463 Speaker 4: I definitely If by service do you mean benefit us? 199 00:11:36,504 --> 00:11:40,983 Speaker 4: Definitely not. And I think you're definitely right, like framing 200 00:11:41,064 --> 00:11:44,984 Speaker 4: it as right versus left is what the government wants 201 00:11:45,064 --> 00:11:48,424 Speaker 4: us to do, But it's really just a class thing. 202 00:11:48,784 --> 00:11:52,504 Speaker 4: It's like even with police. People all the time talk 203 00:11:52,544 --> 00:11:56,664 Speaker 4: about oh police and people of color. The police are 204 00:11:56,703 --> 00:12:00,184 Speaker 4: always violent toward people of color. Sure, but get police 205 00:12:00,223 --> 00:12:02,463 Speaker 4: in an all white area, they're just going to be 206 00:12:02,544 --> 00:12:05,304 Speaker 4: violent to the poor people. I mean, it's obviously race 207 00:12:05,463 --> 00:12:08,264 Speaker 4: in some ways, but so much of what happens in 208 00:12:08,304 --> 00:12:13,184 Speaker 4: this country is just it's just the absolute richest people 209 00:12:13,824 --> 00:12:16,704 Speaker 4: want the people who aren't rich but aren't poor to 210 00:12:16,824 --> 00:12:21,024 Speaker 4: shut up. And yeah, I think right versus left is silly. 211 00:12:21,144 --> 00:12:24,184 Speaker 4: I think it's a silly thing to focus on. It 212 00:12:24,264 --> 00:12:26,144 Speaker 4: keeps us from getting things we need. 213 00:12:26,463 --> 00:12:28,184 Speaker 3: But let me just go to some of the stuff 214 00:12:28,184 --> 00:12:30,784 Speaker 3: that you've done lately, or written about or talked about 215 00:12:30,784 --> 00:12:33,344 Speaker 3: on You explore lots of different stories. Do you have 216 00:12:33,343 --> 00:12:35,503 Speaker 3: any favorites that you've done of late that we could 217 00:12:35,504 --> 00:12:37,743 Speaker 3: talk about, or any issues You've been digging. 218 00:12:37,463 --> 00:12:40,863 Speaker 4: Into so many. I think the thing I've been hung 219 00:12:41,024 --> 00:12:44,504 Speaker 4: up on the most lately this is a really obscure 220 00:12:44,703 --> 00:12:50,424 Speaker 4: conspiracy theory. But there was this board game an ad 221 00:12:50,463 --> 00:12:52,704 Speaker 4: for it ran in the New Yorker back in the 222 00:12:52,784 --> 00:12:56,784 Speaker 4: nineteen forties. Board game is called The Deadly Double, and 223 00:12:57,424 --> 00:13:02,424 Speaker 4: these conspiracy around it has always been that this ad 224 00:13:02,544 --> 00:13:05,784 Speaker 4: in the New Yorker was meant to tip someone off 225 00:13:06,144 --> 00:13:09,344 Speaker 4: about the fact that Pearl Harbor was about to happen. 226 00:13:09,664 --> 00:13:13,424 Speaker 4: And there's a Snapes article out there where they're like, nah, 227 00:13:13,583 --> 00:13:16,944 Speaker 4: the FBI asked, and the guy said, it's nothing. And 228 00:13:17,103 --> 00:13:20,503 Speaker 4: on the first thing, sure, I trust the FBI from 229 00:13:20,504 --> 00:13:25,944 Speaker 4: that era, But this Snopes article just ends by saying, 230 00:13:26,184 --> 00:13:29,424 Speaker 4: oh yeah. Also, this guy was in the OSS, which 231 00:13:29,504 --> 00:13:32,864 Speaker 4: is a precursor to the CIA, and it's like, go on, 232 00:13:33,424 --> 00:13:36,464 Speaker 4: that's that seems like that's not where this article should end. 233 00:13:36,664 --> 00:13:39,224 Speaker 4: But they just left it there. So I picked it 234 00:13:39,304 --> 00:13:42,463 Speaker 4: up and looked into it more. And the guy had 235 00:13:42,664 --> 00:13:46,064 Speaker 4: an office in the same building as the Japanese consulate. 236 00:13:46,504 --> 00:13:49,304 Speaker 4: He was already in the military by the time he 237 00:13:49,463 --> 00:13:53,624 Speaker 4: was developing this board game. Everything about it seems like 238 00:13:53,703 --> 00:13:58,223 Speaker 4: it was an intelligence operation of some sort. I sound 239 00:13:58,264 --> 00:14:00,824 Speaker 4: like a crazy person even talking about it, because it's 240 00:14:00,864 --> 00:14:04,864 Speaker 4: Snopes is such a trusted outlet that once they say no, 241 00:14:04,944 --> 00:14:08,624 Speaker 4: we debunked it, people are reticent to believe they could 242 00:14:08,664 --> 00:14:12,104 Speaker 4: be wrong. And the Deadly Double is a fascinating just 243 00:14:12,144 --> 00:14:16,024 Speaker 4: a blip in conspiracy theory history that I've just been 244 00:14:16,103 --> 00:14:16,904 Speaker 4: fascinated with. 245 00:14:17,223 --> 00:14:18,944 Speaker 3: I looked it up to try to look for that 246 00:14:19,064 --> 00:14:22,104 Speaker 3: ad and one of the things, and what's interesting is, yeah, 247 00:14:22,104 --> 00:14:25,744 Speaker 3: the Japanese concept was a thirty rock, but also was 248 00:14:25,784 --> 00:14:28,424 Speaker 3: the Germans were there and the FBI was there, which 249 00:14:28,464 --> 00:14:31,544 Speaker 3: is crazy because the British were there, and the British 250 00:14:31,544 --> 00:14:34,744 Speaker 3: had people like Ian Fleming and Rould Dahl and all 251 00:14:34,784 --> 00:14:36,664 Speaker 3: these other people who are involved in intelligence at the 252 00:14:36,664 --> 00:14:39,144 Speaker 3: same time, so they're all in that same building together. 253 00:14:39,424 --> 00:14:42,584 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of connections like that from back 254 00:14:42,624 --> 00:14:46,784 Speaker 4: in the day in conspiracy theory related ways. They're fascinating. 255 00:14:46,824 --> 00:14:51,143 Speaker 4: I think. Another one is all of those Laurel Canyon musicians, 256 00:14:51,504 --> 00:14:56,584 Speaker 4: Frank Zappa, the Doors all children of military intelligence people 257 00:14:56,784 --> 00:14:58,984 Speaker 4: and they all show up in the same part of 258 00:14:59,024 --> 00:15:02,064 Speaker 4: the country at the exact same time. And start this 259 00:15:02,184 --> 00:15:04,304 Speaker 4: huge counter culture movement. 260 00:15:04,424 --> 00:15:07,504 Speaker 2: You know, with Snopes, there's conspiracy theories that you can 261 00:15:07,664 --> 00:15:10,264 Speaker 2: debunk that are simply like not true, and then there's 262 00:15:10,304 --> 00:15:13,464 Speaker 2: conspiracies that have an element of truth, but a lot 263 00:15:13,504 --> 00:15:16,424 Speaker 2: of them there's just no evidence. Like with aliens with 264 00:15:16,544 --> 00:15:19,824 Speaker 2: everybody loves right, I don't know, Show me the alien 265 00:15:19,984 --> 00:15:21,944 Speaker 2: and then I'll believe in it. I'm not closing my 266 00:15:22,064 --> 00:15:24,344 Speaker 2: mind to the possibility when you look it up in 267 00:15:24,384 --> 00:15:26,984 Speaker 2: Snopes and they basically what they're really saying is there's 268 00:15:27,024 --> 00:15:29,304 Speaker 2: no hard evidence. But that doesn't mean it's not true. 269 00:15:29,344 --> 00:15:32,544 Speaker 2: It just means that there's insufficient evidence to support it. 270 00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:35,744 Speaker 2: And I think I wish people were more comfortable with 271 00:15:35,864 --> 00:15:38,504 Speaker 2: either yes it's true, or no it's not, or most 272 00:15:38,624 --> 00:15:41,264 Speaker 2: likely geez, I don't know. The jury's still out. 273 00:15:41,664 --> 00:15:44,344 Speaker 4: Yeah, And sometimes that's as good as you're gonna get. 274 00:15:44,584 --> 00:15:48,224 Speaker 4: Like Yeah, I think Bobby Kennedy is a great example. 275 00:15:48,584 --> 00:15:52,944 Speaker 4: It seems like something different than what the story we've 276 00:15:52,984 --> 00:15:55,784 Speaker 4: been told happened, but we're never gonna know. They can 277 00:15:55,864 --> 00:15:58,664 Speaker 4: release all the files they want, but we're never gonna 278 00:15:58,904 --> 00:16:01,424 Speaker 4: figure that out, so it's gonna have to just be. 279 00:16:01,984 --> 00:16:02,224 Speaker 2: Yeah. 280 00:16:02,384 --> 00:16:05,384 Speaker 4: I think something's up and I can't prove it, And yeah, 281 00:16:05,464 --> 00:16:08,864 Speaker 4: you sometimes just have to be satisfied with that. But 282 00:16:08,904 --> 00:16:13,064 Speaker 4: I think my least favorite type of conspiracy theory, speaking 283 00:16:13,064 --> 00:16:16,664 Speaker 4: of stuff with and without evidence, is I call it 284 00:16:16,704 --> 00:16:20,824 Speaker 4: a demeanor conviction conspiracy, and I think Sandy Hook is 285 00:16:20,864 --> 00:16:24,944 Speaker 4: a great example of that, where the entire conspiracy is 286 00:16:25,424 --> 00:16:28,184 Speaker 4: why is this guy acting so weird in front of 287 00:16:28,184 --> 00:16:30,344 Speaker 4: the camera. It's like, I don't know, maybe because there's 288 00:16:30,344 --> 00:16:32,904 Speaker 4: a school full of dead kids behind him and this 289 00:16:33,064 --> 00:16:35,624 Speaker 4: is the craziest thing he's ever been through in his 290 00:16:35,784 --> 00:16:38,784 Speaker 4: entire life. How would you act if you had to 291 00:16:38,784 --> 00:16:41,584 Speaker 4: get in front of TV cameras in that moment? So 292 00:16:42,224 --> 00:16:45,504 Speaker 4: when a conspiracy is based on stuff like that, I'm 293 00:16:45,824 --> 00:16:48,344 Speaker 4: immediately willing to disregard it. 294 00:16:48,464 --> 00:16:50,584 Speaker 3: From your work too. One of the questions like how 295 00:16:50,624 --> 00:16:54,304 Speaker 3: do grifters and bad actors intentionally weaponize conspiracy theories for 296 00:16:54,384 --> 00:16:57,024 Speaker 3: money or power attention? Because it seems like we're seeing 297 00:16:57,024 --> 00:16:57,464 Speaker 3: more of that. 298 00:16:57,784 --> 00:17:00,544 Speaker 4: I think that's just people. I don't know, this is 299 00:17:00,544 --> 00:17:02,824 Speaker 4: a harsh way to put it, but sort of laying 300 00:17:02,864 --> 00:17:07,664 Speaker 4: on mental illness in some cases, because there are like 301 00:17:08,104 --> 00:17:10,944 Speaker 4: books you can download that tell you how to cultivate 302 00:17:11,304 --> 00:17:15,184 Speaker 4: this sort of conspiracy theory audience and how to really 303 00:17:15,264 --> 00:17:18,984 Speaker 4: just keep milking them for money over and over. And 304 00:17:19,504 --> 00:17:22,064 Speaker 4: I think that's how it works. Like you see these 305 00:17:22,224 --> 00:17:25,704 Speaker 4: there are conspiracy theory podcasters and things out there who 306 00:17:25,784 --> 00:17:27,984 Speaker 4: have you go on Amazon and they have dozens and 307 00:17:28,024 --> 00:17:31,184 Speaker 4: dozens of books that AI must have written. They're just 308 00:17:31,304 --> 00:17:33,904 Speaker 4: hitting on these same topics over and over and getting 309 00:17:33,944 --> 00:17:36,224 Speaker 4: these people to pay them money for it over and 310 00:17:36,304 --> 00:17:39,664 Speaker 4: over and it I think it just comes down to 311 00:17:39,944 --> 00:17:43,704 Speaker 4: exploitation and finding the right group of people that you 312 00:17:43,744 --> 00:17:48,304 Speaker 4: can milk for money and play on their paranoia. Paranoia 313 00:17:48,344 --> 00:17:49,344 Speaker 4: is a big thing. 314 00:17:50,424 --> 00:17:52,944 Speaker 2: Back to eating bugs just for a second. One of 315 00:17:52,944 --> 00:17:58,064 Speaker 2: the things driving it apparently is anti environmentalism and trying 316 00:17:58,104 --> 00:18:01,984 Speaker 2: to show that there is no global warming. Right, So 317 00:18:02,464 --> 00:18:05,904 Speaker 2: one of the issues is we can't raise Raising beef 318 00:18:06,024 --> 00:18:09,024 Speaker 2: is inherently inefficient. There's all sorts of issues with it 319 00:18:09,224 --> 00:18:12,544 Speaker 2: change the climate. And so people are saying, ah, they're 320 00:18:12,584 --> 00:18:17,664 Speaker 2: trying to reduce methane from cattle and all the rest 321 00:18:17,704 --> 00:18:20,184 Speaker 2: of this, And the pushback is that's because they want 322 00:18:20,264 --> 00:18:22,344 Speaker 2: us to eat bugs and they take despair. You know, 323 00:18:22,424 --> 00:18:25,384 Speaker 2: bits of information put it together, but what it serves 324 00:18:25,464 --> 00:18:27,504 Speaker 2: in the end, and I don't think the I don't 325 00:18:27,544 --> 00:18:32,024 Speaker 2: think the patrolling industry is behind it specifically pushing this, 326 00:18:32,464 --> 00:18:35,384 Speaker 2: but that's who it benefits. But I do think there 327 00:18:35,504 --> 00:18:39,504 Speaker 2: is an ey sense there is a conspiracy to push 328 00:18:39,704 --> 00:18:44,544 Speaker 2: money into pushing alternate, mostly unscientific evidence that there is 329 00:18:44,584 --> 00:18:47,744 Speaker 2: no global warming, that there's that human being. Humans are 330 00:18:47,784 --> 00:18:51,264 Speaker 2: not affecting climate change, right, or we're not affecting the climate. 331 00:18:51,624 --> 00:18:53,104 Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of money in that. 332 00:18:53,384 --> 00:18:57,224 Speaker 2: But certainly there is money, and people are trying to 333 00:18:57,224 --> 00:19:01,304 Speaker 2: preserve their rice bowls, just like with big tobacco for years, 334 00:19:01,384 --> 00:19:03,944 Speaker 2: trying to which is true, trying to keep people from 335 00:19:04,024 --> 00:19:06,904 Speaker 2: understanding that twenty years ago that cigarettes kill people. 336 00:19:07,624 --> 00:19:13,064 Speaker 4: I imagine that conspiracy theory is probably at least somewhat 337 00:19:13,104 --> 00:19:16,984 Speaker 4: playing into what happened in Nebraska not too long ago, 338 00:19:17,064 --> 00:19:21,384 Speaker 4: where the governor signed a ban on lab produced meat. 339 00:19:21,504 --> 00:19:25,104 Speaker 4: But then that's just benefiting the beef industry. My pet 340 00:19:25,144 --> 00:19:28,584 Speaker 4: conspiracy theory that I hope is true is that when 341 00:19:28,584 --> 00:19:31,824 Speaker 4: it comes to climate change, we already got it fixed, 342 00:19:32,064 --> 00:19:35,184 Speaker 4: and they just want to raid the planet until the 343 00:19:35,344 --> 00:19:38,984 Speaker 4: absolute last possible moment and then they'll roll out, Hey, 344 00:19:38,984 --> 00:19:41,584 Speaker 4: look what he found from the Aliens in nineteen. 345 00:19:41,704 --> 00:19:44,504 Speaker 3: If you're right, grifters are always going to take advantage 346 00:19:44,504 --> 00:19:46,344 Speaker 3: of these things. How does it happen? So we say, 347 00:19:46,344 --> 00:19:49,184 Speaker 3: why do we want to believe conspiracy theories so much 348 00:19:49,264 --> 00:19:51,024 Speaker 3: that we can fall for things like that? 349 00:19:51,144 --> 00:19:56,064 Speaker 4: Even I think there's also a big element of people 350 00:19:56,184 --> 00:19:58,544 Speaker 4: don't want to be wrong. I think you see that 351 00:19:58,584 --> 00:20:01,864 Speaker 4: a whole lot with stuff like wrongful convictions, where you'll 352 00:20:01,904 --> 00:20:05,224 Speaker 4: get a prosecutor who is presented with plenty of evidence 353 00:20:05,304 --> 00:20:07,824 Speaker 4: that the person they sent to prison maybe shouldn't be there, 354 00:20:08,144 --> 00:20:10,464 Speaker 4: and they're just like, oh, but then I'm going to 355 00:20:10,504 --> 00:20:12,424 Speaker 4: have to admit I messed up in public and no 356 00:20:12,584 --> 00:20:16,584 Speaker 4: thank you. And I think there is a good portion 357 00:20:16,664 --> 00:20:19,224 Speaker 4: of the population that once they latch onto something like 358 00:20:19,304 --> 00:20:23,504 Speaker 4: QAnon and they see evidence that maybe they're wrong, they're 359 00:20:23,544 --> 00:20:25,664 Speaker 4: just going to stay the course so they don't have 360 00:20:25,744 --> 00:20:26,904 Speaker 4: to say they were wrong. 361 00:20:27,064 --> 00:20:29,384 Speaker 2: So I think you're right. I think it's just something 362 00:20:29,424 --> 00:20:31,584 Speaker 2: that it's a feel good thing that should tell yourself 363 00:20:31,624 --> 00:20:33,624 Speaker 2: and you don't have to deal with global warming and 364 00:20:33,664 --> 00:20:36,984 Speaker 2: all these difficult, complicated things. You just deny them and 365 00:20:37,104 --> 00:20:38,224 Speaker 2: eat your blueberry muffin. 366 00:20:38,424 --> 00:20:42,024 Speaker 4: I think is also there's an entertainment aspect to it. 367 00:20:42,464 --> 00:20:44,944 Speaker 4: One of the podcasts I host is called Conspiracy The Show, 368 00:20:45,264 --> 00:20:48,664 Speaker 4: and I describe it all the time as a true 369 00:20:48,704 --> 00:20:52,864 Speaker 4: crime podcast where the perpetrator is just always the government. 370 00:20:53,144 --> 00:20:56,624 Speaker 4: Like it's just the same as true crime, but in 371 00:20:56,664 --> 00:21:01,024 Speaker 4: a slightly different way. You're seeing this powerful force victimizing 372 00:21:01,064 --> 00:21:02,944 Speaker 4: people who have less power. 373 00:21:03,264 --> 00:21:05,584 Speaker 3: I think we've talked about class, but I think a 374 00:21:05,584 --> 00:21:08,704 Speaker 3: lot of people are, if not poor, their lower middle 375 00:21:08,704 --> 00:21:11,264 Speaker 3: class or middle class, and they're it's kind of boredom. 376 00:21:11,304 --> 00:21:14,184 Speaker 3: People are just are bored, and they like stories and 377 00:21:14,184 --> 00:21:16,584 Speaker 3: they want to be the center of the story. Everybody 378 00:21:16,584 --> 00:21:18,904 Speaker 3: wants to be a hero, and of course the world. 379 00:21:19,184 --> 00:21:21,184 Speaker 3: One of the things that nobody wants to admit is 380 00:21:21,184 --> 00:21:24,744 Speaker 3: the world is just so massive and complex that we 381 00:21:24,864 --> 00:21:27,304 Speaker 3: really don't know the answer to almost anything. 382 00:21:27,464 --> 00:21:29,464 Speaker 4: And sometimes conspiracy theories are just true. 383 00:21:29,544 --> 00:21:31,944 Speaker 2: No, it's exactly. Sometimes just conspiracies. 384 00:21:32,024 --> 00:21:34,304 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean that. I say this all the time. 385 00:21:34,424 --> 00:21:38,304 Speaker 4: But you're a crazy person if you believe every conspiracy theory. 386 00:21:38,304 --> 00:21:40,504 Speaker 4: But you're also kind of a crazy person if you 387 00:21:40,504 --> 00:21:44,664 Speaker 4: don't believe any Like you. There's a comedian Ron Funches 388 00:21:44,744 --> 00:21:46,424 Speaker 4: has a great bit about this. 389 00:21:47,064 --> 00:21:51,184 Speaker 5: Not just certain people I have no time for, Like 390 00:21:51,224 --> 00:21:56,344 Speaker 5: if you're sexist or homophobic, or if you don't believe 391 00:21:56,424 --> 00:21:58,464 Speaker 5: in conspiracy theories. 392 00:22:04,144 --> 00:22:06,704 Speaker 4: Just don't understand. How do you not believe in any 393 00:22:06,904 --> 00:22:10,944 Speaker 4: conspiracy theories? I understand, not all of them, not most 394 00:22:10,944 --> 00:22:11,224 Speaker 4: of them. 395 00:22:11,264 --> 00:22:15,344 Speaker 5: But you don't believe in any conspiracy there? You just 396 00:22:15,384 --> 00:22:18,504 Speaker 5: think the government's just batting the thousand and telling us 397 00:22:18,544 --> 00:22:19,304 Speaker 5: the whole truth. 398 00:22:22,264 --> 00:22:27,064 Speaker 4: That's a strong stance to take. No, not everything is 399 00:22:27,104 --> 00:22:31,264 Speaker 4: a conspiracy, but yes, sometimes the government lies, and we 400 00:22:31,344 --> 00:22:34,424 Speaker 4: know that the Gulf of Tonkin is a very famous example. 401 00:22:34,464 --> 00:22:37,064 Speaker 4: We kind of lied our way into Vietnam. The one 402 00:22:37,104 --> 00:22:39,584 Speaker 4: I bring up all the time when people are like, oh, 403 00:22:39,624 --> 00:22:42,783 Speaker 4: I don't believe conspiracy theories. Okay, why did we go 404 00:22:42,824 --> 00:22:45,624 Speaker 4: to war in Iraq that second time? Was it really 405 00:22:45,664 --> 00:22:48,824 Speaker 4: because they had weapons of mass destruction? Or do you 406 00:22:48,864 --> 00:22:52,064 Speaker 4: think we were there for another reason? Because that's a conspiracy. 407 00:22:52,304 --> 00:22:55,984 Speaker 4: It's just people coordinating to lie about things to make 408 00:22:56,024 --> 00:22:57,664 Speaker 4: them look different than they are. 409 00:23:11,024 --> 00:23:14,344 Speaker 2: You're here with two CIA guys, right, So what are 410 00:23:14,384 --> 00:23:17,824 Speaker 2: your favorite conspiracy rabbit holes that have to do with CIA? 411 00:23:18,744 --> 00:23:23,144 Speaker 4: I mean, my pet CIA conspiracy theory that I think 412 00:23:23,304 --> 00:23:26,144 Speaker 4: might be one of my own. I am pretty sure 413 00:23:26,184 --> 00:23:30,344 Speaker 4: the CIA tried to kill Reagan. That feels like sort 414 00:23:30,384 --> 00:23:33,064 Speaker 4: of a coup attempt thing to me, because if you 415 00:23:33,584 --> 00:23:36,864 Speaker 4: look back historically, it's hot on the heels of the 416 00:23:36,944 --> 00:23:40,584 Speaker 4: Church Committee, which was where we took the intelligence community 417 00:23:40,664 --> 00:23:44,264 Speaker 4: to task in this country. Jimmy Carter comes into office 418 00:23:44,584 --> 00:23:49,864 Speaker 4: just vowing to reform intelligence and reform the CIA, and 419 00:23:49,904 --> 00:23:52,904 Speaker 4: then what happens, as if by magic for the first 420 00:23:52,904 --> 00:23:56,184 Speaker 4: time in history, the director of the CIA goes, Oh, 421 00:23:56,184 --> 00:23:59,064 Speaker 4: I'm gonna run for vice president, and then we get 422 00:23:59,104 --> 00:24:03,904 Speaker 4: the October surprise where these hostages in Iran are released 423 00:24:04,384 --> 00:24:08,144 Speaker 4: literally five minutes after Reagan was inaugurated, and there was 424 00:24:08,224 --> 00:24:11,824 Speaker 4: all this talk of someone orchestrate that so Carter would 425 00:24:11,864 --> 00:24:15,544 Speaker 4: lose the election, and then what happens not too long 426 00:24:15,584 --> 00:24:18,783 Speaker 4: into his term. Reagan gets shot, not just shot, but 427 00:24:18,824 --> 00:24:23,984 Speaker 4: in very weird mk ultra catcher in the Rye type fashion. 428 00:24:24,184 --> 00:24:30,584 Speaker 4: All of that feels like ciamk ultra type stuff to me, 429 00:24:31,144 --> 00:24:34,384 Speaker 4: And from that point on, I would argue we didn't 430 00:24:34,504 --> 00:24:39,224 Speaker 4: reform the CIA. They moved operations to other countries, but 431 00:24:39,704 --> 00:24:43,224 Speaker 4: CIA kind of ran rough shot over Latin America in 432 00:24:43,264 --> 00:24:47,064 Speaker 4: the eighties while Reagan just watched. I don't know. It's 433 00:24:47,064 --> 00:24:49,144 Speaker 4: one of those things you'll never prove it. I don't 434 00:24:49,144 --> 00:24:50,584 Speaker 4: want to be the one to prove it. For one thing, 435 00:24:50,624 --> 00:24:52,824 Speaker 4: I'm not trying to get killed by the CIA. But 436 00:24:53,184 --> 00:24:57,544 Speaker 4: a lot of weird circumstances line up pretty well. There 437 00:24:57,584 --> 00:24:57,864 Speaker 4: just a. 438 00:24:57,824 --> 00:25:00,264 Speaker 3: Few comments like I can't prove or disprove any of 439 00:25:00,304 --> 00:25:02,784 Speaker 3: this kind of stuff. That does seem a little conspiratorial 440 00:25:02,824 --> 00:25:06,144 Speaker 3: to me. But I make a distinction sum from my 441 00:25:06,264 --> 00:25:10,464 Speaker 3: experience of almost thirty years in the government, between professional 442 00:25:10,944 --> 00:25:14,544 Speaker 3: civil servants, public servants and the government and politicians. And 443 00:25:14,584 --> 00:25:17,744 Speaker 3: so you talk about the October surprise. I think politicians 444 00:25:18,104 --> 00:25:21,064 Speaker 3: who are over the government often have an interest in 445 00:25:21,104 --> 00:25:23,944 Speaker 3: proving that their policies are right the other policies are wrong. 446 00:25:24,464 --> 00:25:27,424 Speaker 3: I do think when these October surprises, when people are 447 00:25:27,424 --> 00:25:30,144 Speaker 3: trying to run for government happened under LBJ it happened, 448 00:25:30,224 --> 00:25:32,984 Speaker 3: or Nixon happened under like I said, when Reagan was running, 449 00:25:33,264 --> 00:25:35,344 Speaker 3: I think they have moneyed interests that want them to 450 00:25:35,384 --> 00:25:37,624 Speaker 3: win that may go out and try to get involved 451 00:25:37,624 --> 00:25:40,104 Speaker 3: in things. But that's not the The CI is not 452 00:25:40,104 --> 00:25:41,704 Speaker 3: going to go out and try to get Reagan elected. 453 00:25:41,744 --> 00:25:44,304 Speaker 3: When they work for another president, because we worked for 454 00:25:45,064 --> 00:25:47,944 Speaker 3: the executive branch and other presidents. And then once Reagan 455 00:25:48,104 --> 00:25:51,024 Speaker 3: was in power, Casey was the director and he was 456 00:25:51,144 --> 00:25:55,424 Speaker 3: very close to Reagan and was a very hardcore Cold warrior. 457 00:25:55,904 --> 00:25:58,424 Speaker 3: And like you said, those policies where they were pushing 458 00:25:58,424 --> 00:26:00,984 Speaker 3: in Central America and whol Aron Contra and all those 459 00:26:01,024 --> 00:26:04,544 Speaker 3: other kind of things. I don't know that Casey's CI 460 00:26:04,704 --> 00:26:06,624 Speaker 3: would be interested in killing Reagan. I think they were 461 00:26:06,744 --> 00:26:09,704 Speaker 3: benefiting from Reagan. So could because after getting beaten up 462 00:26:09,704 --> 00:26:12,384 Speaker 3: in the seventies by said the Church and Pike Commissions, 463 00:26:12,664 --> 00:26:14,344 Speaker 3: all of a sudden cases coming in and saying, no, 464 00:26:14,384 --> 00:26:15,584 Speaker 3: we got to win the Cold War, we got to 465 00:26:15,584 --> 00:26:17,344 Speaker 3: defeat the Soviets. The CIA needs to be one of 466 00:26:17,384 --> 00:26:19,544 Speaker 3: our main anymans, I would think a lot of CIA 467 00:26:19,584 --> 00:26:21,144 Speaker 3: people would be like, oh, now, all of a sudden, 468 00:26:21,144 --> 00:26:23,144 Speaker 3: you know, a president wants us to be more aggressive 469 00:26:23,184 --> 00:26:24,984 Speaker 3: and do things, and so I don't think they would 470 00:26:25,024 --> 00:26:27,384 Speaker 3: want to kill them. And one of the other last 471 00:26:27,384 --> 00:26:30,304 Speaker 3: thing I'll say, and not Jerry can answer, is movies 472 00:26:30,344 --> 00:26:32,544 Speaker 3: and other things talk about the CIA assassining people and 473 00:26:32,544 --> 00:26:35,384 Speaker 3: their CIA assassins. There's no such thing as CIA assassins. 474 00:26:35,384 --> 00:26:36,224 Speaker 2: The CIA the. 475 00:26:36,144 --> 00:26:39,344 Speaker 3: CIA does have COVID authorities. If a president gives them 476 00:26:39,344 --> 00:26:42,024 Speaker 3: the authorities to say, okay, we're we're going to try 477 00:26:42,064 --> 00:26:44,824 Speaker 3: to influence a foreign government, or you could even guess it. 478 00:26:44,944 --> 00:26:47,104 Speaker 3: Perhaps they would say you need to go kill somebody. 479 00:26:47,304 --> 00:26:48,704 Speaker 3: But then then what they do is like you saw 480 00:26:48,744 --> 00:26:51,624 Speaker 3: in Cuba, they'll try to hire someone else to do it. 481 00:26:51,664 --> 00:26:55,464 Speaker 3: So the government is not it's deniable. Right, So if 482 00:26:55,504 --> 00:26:59,304 Speaker 3: a criminal kills Castro and they'll say, oh, the CI did, 483 00:26:59,304 --> 00:27:01,304 Speaker 3: it would be like there's no whereas if an actual 484 00:27:01,344 --> 00:27:04,824 Speaker 3: CI person kills to somebody and gets caught, then there's 485 00:27:04,824 --> 00:27:07,424 Speaker 3: no deniability there. So there are no such thing as 486 00:27:07,544 --> 00:27:10,944 Speaker 3: CIA assassins. Sadly for the Hollywood write. 487 00:27:10,784 --> 00:27:12,824 Speaker 2: About, I just think three quick things. 488 00:27:14,304 --> 00:27:15,104 Speaker 4: Fourth quick things. 489 00:27:15,304 --> 00:27:17,264 Speaker 2: First of all, I'm not turying to buy into all 490 00:27:17,304 --> 00:27:21,024 Speaker 2: of that, but nonetheless I do think there were conspiracies 491 00:27:21,024 --> 00:27:23,984 Speaker 2: that you're talking about. I think the October surprise. I 492 00:27:23,984 --> 00:27:26,944 Speaker 2: think there's a lot of evidence that people in the 493 00:27:27,064 --> 00:27:31,104 Speaker 2: Reagan campaign were talking to the Iranians about don't let 494 00:27:31,184 --> 00:27:33,944 Speaker 2: the hostages go until after the elections, and I think 495 00:27:34,024 --> 00:27:37,144 Speaker 2: that really hindered and probably cost Card the election. I 496 00:27:37,184 --> 00:27:39,424 Speaker 2: think there was a genuine conspiracy. I don't think CIA 497 00:27:39,504 --> 00:27:42,664 Speaker 2: was involved in scene. The second is on Iran contra 498 00:27:42,984 --> 00:27:47,144 Speaker 2: funneling money to the Sundaistas. That did happen with Ali North, 499 00:27:47,504 --> 00:27:49,704 Speaker 2: but they were doing it outside of the CIA, if 500 00:27:49,744 --> 00:27:51,624 Speaker 2: you remember that, because like they were afraid, the CIA 501 00:27:51,664 --> 00:27:54,304 Speaker 2: couldn't keep it secret. It was illegal, it was fucked up. 502 00:27:54,344 --> 00:27:57,024 Speaker 2: So Oli North was running this out of the National 503 00:27:57,064 --> 00:28:02,064 Speaker 2: Security at the NSC and they were selling weapons to 504 00:28:02,104 --> 00:28:04,624 Speaker 2: Iran and funneling money is illegally to the conference, but 505 00:28:04,744 --> 00:28:07,344 Speaker 2: not doing it through the CIA. And the third thing 506 00:28:07,384 --> 00:28:09,984 Speaker 2: I'd say is John and I being in there. The 507 00:28:10,024 --> 00:28:13,424 Speaker 2: CIA is a bureaucracy and we're not really Republican or Democrat. 508 00:28:13,504 --> 00:28:15,344 Speaker 2: When we work, we have no idea who the person 509 00:28:15,384 --> 00:28:17,864 Speaker 2: next to us is. We've been always a political maybe 510 00:28:17,944 --> 00:28:21,464 Speaker 2: up until now, but it is really hard to keep 511 00:28:21,464 --> 00:28:24,624 Speaker 2: a secret in a bureaucracy where hundreds of people know 512 00:28:24,704 --> 00:28:27,304 Speaker 2: about it, and you pick up secrets like through us. 513 00:28:27,384 --> 00:28:30,104 Speaker 2: Most is like who your buddy is and sitting at 514 00:28:30,104 --> 00:28:34,304 Speaker 2: a table having coffee and the cafeteria. So if there 515 00:28:34,464 --> 00:28:37,984 Speaker 2: was a real CIA and it was going through the agency, 516 00:28:38,344 --> 00:28:40,544 Speaker 2: just my sense and having work there, it would be 517 00:28:40,664 --> 00:28:44,024 Speaker 2: almost impossible to keep something like that secret for thirty 518 00:28:44,104 --> 00:28:48,104 Speaker 2: years because somebody retires, writes a book, goes on a podcast. 519 00:28:48,664 --> 00:28:51,744 Speaker 2: It's really hard to keep a secret, and CIA, especially 520 00:28:51,784 --> 00:28:53,704 Speaker 2: if there's fifty people involved. 521 00:28:53,864 --> 00:28:57,384 Speaker 4: Do feel like that is also the objection when people 522 00:28:57,504 --> 00:29:02,064 Speaker 4: do come forward and talk about things though, is oh, well, 523 00:29:02,064 --> 00:29:04,784 Speaker 4: if what this person was saying was true, someone else 524 00:29:04,824 --> 00:29:08,064 Speaker 4: would have come forward and said something. They're coming forward 525 00:29:08,264 --> 00:29:12,024 Speaker 4: and saying something. As far as the CIA assassins thing, 526 00:29:12,424 --> 00:29:16,504 Speaker 4: there is a really interesting documentary out there called Wormwood, 527 00:29:16,784 --> 00:29:21,024 Speaker 4: which is about the version of the story everyone knows 528 00:29:21,144 --> 00:29:24,024 Speaker 4: is the CIA does this agent with too much LSD 529 00:29:24,104 --> 00:29:25,184 Speaker 4: and he jumped out a window. 530 00:29:25,464 --> 00:29:26,624 Speaker 3: That's m k eltra stuff. 531 00:29:26,664 --> 00:29:27,664 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 532 00:29:27,704 --> 00:29:31,944 Speaker 4: In that documentary, at one point the filmmakers reach out 533 00:29:32,064 --> 00:29:37,544 Speaker 4: to someone at the CIA and they ask about manuals 534 00:29:37,584 --> 00:29:40,984 Speaker 4: that would show like assassination techniques, and whoever they talk 535 00:29:41,064 --> 00:29:43,024 Speaker 4: to is like, yeah, we'll send them to you. They 536 00:29:43,104 --> 00:29:45,664 Speaker 4: send them all of these manuals that at least in 537 00:29:45,704 --> 00:29:50,384 Speaker 4: one instance, describe exactly how this Frank Olsen guy died. So, 538 00:29:50,984 --> 00:29:55,664 Speaker 4: if there's no one carrying out assassination assassinations at the CIA, 539 00:29:56,304 --> 00:29:59,144 Speaker 4: what was all that about? Is it a thing that they. 540 00:29:59,184 --> 00:30:00,144 Speaker 2: Used to do and not. 541 00:30:00,744 --> 00:30:03,024 Speaker 3: Those manuals I think are real, but I think they 542 00:30:03,024 --> 00:30:06,264 Speaker 3: were used, for example, to give to groups that we 543 00:30:06,304 --> 00:30:09,184 Speaker 3: were training. So if you're training parts of the viet 544 00:30:09,184 --> 00:30:12,904 Speaker 3: Cong and Vietnam and you're to fight against the Northern Vietnamese, 545 00:30:13,184 --> 00:30:16,144 Speaker 3: you give those training maials to train parts of the 546 00:30:16,304 --> 00:30:20,584 Speaker 3: Vietnamese to fight against the communist Vietnamese. Or you can 547 00:30:20,584 --> 00:30:24,144 Speaker 3: think of various insurgencies that the US has supported against 548 00:30:24,224 --> 00:30:27,064 Speaker 3: other countries and things, and so it's a training manual 549 00:30:27,064 --> 00:30:29,784 Speaker 3: to train that. There's not like an American who's like 550 00:30:29,784 --> 00:30:32,064 Speaker 3: like they're like in the movies that has a gun 551 00:30:32,104 --> 00:30:33,824 Speaker 3: and they're putting it together and shooting it out of 552 00:30:33,824 --> 00:30:36,064 Speaker 3: a window somewhere. But in the day when you were 553 00:30:36,104 --> 00:30:38,824 Speaker 3: training people, you might train them how to kill their 554 00:30:38,944 --> 00:30:39,784 Speaker 3: enemies or what have you. 555 00:30:40,144 --> 00:30:43,344 Speaker 2: CIA is A is A. It's always tough in an 556 00:30:43,344 --> 00:30:47,744 Speaker 2: open democracy to have a secret of organization, right. They 557 00:30:47,744 --> 00:30:50,464 Speaker 2: don't fit together real well, and they never should. So 558 00:30:50,504 --> 00:30:54,224 Speaker 2: there's always going to be a mismatch between an organization 559 00:30:54,464 --> 00:30:57,864 Speaker 2: like like CAA or any even FBI that does the 560 00:30:58,024 --> 00:31:01,704 Speaker 2: Duck conducts operations that the public can't know about because 561 00:31:01,904 --> 00:31:04,744 Speaker 2: law enforcement or espionage and I think that's just something 562 00:31:04,784 --> 00:31:07,104 Speaker 2: to be It's always going to be there, and for 563 00:31:07,464 --> 00:31:09,464 Speaker 2: a certain extent that's good. You need to keep tab 564 00:31:09,784 --> 00:31:12,704 Speaker 2: on secretive organizations and you need to have oversight, and 565 00:31:12,744 --> 00:31:14,504 Speaker 2: that's what the Church Committee and all that stuff in 566 00:31:14,584 --> 00:31:17,664 Speaker 2: the seventies was about. Although inside of CIA's a pain 567 00:31:17,664 --> 00:31:18,904 Speaker 2: in the ass sometimes. 568 00:31:18,504 --> 00:31:20,304 Speaker 3: I should lots of paperwork. As they say on the 569 00:31:20,464 --> 00:31:23,064 Speaker 3: TV shows, is there a conspiracy theory that you've looked 570 00:31:23,104 --> 00:31:26,144 Speaker 3: into and fund yourself almost believing it until you dug deeper. 571 00:31:26,704 --> 00:31:30,944 Speaker 4: I think the New World Order is a conspiracy theory. 572 00:31:31,144 --> 00:31:34,744 Speaker 4: I almost want to believe, which the the big overarching 573 00:31:34,904 --> 00:31:38,304 Speaker 4: New World Order conspiracy is that at some point the 574 00:31:38,304 --> 00:31:41,664 Speaker 4: American government is going to pull off this false flag 575 00:31:41,824 --> 00:31:47,224 Speaker 4: alien invasion and use it to install a one world government. 576 00:31:47,464 --> 00:31:51,064 Speaker 4: That's like the granddaddy of all conspiracy theories. And on 577 00:31:51,104 --> 00:31:53,584 Speaker 4: the one hand, I want to believe it because I 578 00:31:53,584 --> 00:31:56,544 Speaker 4: would almost be proud of my government if they could 579 00:31:56,544 --> 00:31:58,944 Speaker 4: pull something off like that. I'd be like, all right, 580 00:31:58,984 --> 00:32:01,544 Speaker 4: we're all about to be enslaved, but that's my government. 581 00:32:01,584 --> 00:32:03,904 Speaker 4: Look at them doing that. But at the same time, 582 00:32:03,944 --> 00:32:06,944 Speaker 4: I think they might already be trying, and it's just 583 00:32:07,024 --> 00:32:10,824 Speaker 4: not working because we're getting all these videos of UFOs 584 00:32:11,384 --> 00:32:14,624 Speaker 4: flying over the ocean, getting hit with missiles and breaking apart, 585 00:32:14,944 --> 00:32:17,744 Speaker 4: and everyone's just like, fuck you, are they going to 586 00:32:17,784 --> 00:32:19,744 Speaker 4: get me a job? Are they going to get Trump 587 00:32:19,744 --> 00:32:20,344 Speaker 4: out of office? 588 00:32:20,464 --> 00:32:22,184 Speaker 3: Let me ask you then, just a simple one, like 589 00:32:22,264 --> 00:32:24,664 Speaker 3: what are your next projects that you're working on? Things 590 00:32:24,664 --> 00:32:25,824 Speaker 3: that you're eager to cover. 591 00:32:26,064 --> 00:32:31,584 Speaker 4: I really want to dive into Jonestown more. I did 592 00:32:31,744 --> 00:32:35,224 Speaker 4: a bunch of episodes about Jonestown, but I think it's 593 00:32:35,464 --> 00:32:39,344 Speaker 4: there's a lot more meat on the bone there other 594 00:32:39,464 --> 00:32:43,304 Speaker 4: than that. Right now, I feel like I've been mostly 595 00:32:43,664 --> 00:32:47,384 Speaker 4: in terms of conspiracy stuff. There's enough happening right now 596 00:32:47,704 --> 00:32:50,024 Speaker 4: that I haven't had to dig into a lot of 597 00:32:50,424 --> 00:32:55,304 Speaker 4: historical stuff. Yeah, you got Trump getting on truth social 598 00:32:55,384 --> 00:32:59,544 Speaker 4: and pushing med beds as a thing that's real, so 599 00:32:59,624 --> 00:33:02,864 Speaker 4: we obviously got to do an episode about that. Lately, 600 00:33:02,904 --> 00:33:05,584 Speaker 4: it's just been a lot of keeping an eye on 601 00:33:06,224 --> 00:33:09,304 Speaker 4: the news to see what this government gives us to 602 00:33:09,344 --> 00:33:11,904 Speaker 4: talk talk about next. And they've also been releasing all 603 00:33:11,944 --> 00:33:14,624 Speaker 4: those files, the RFK files, JFK files. 604 00:33:14,864 --> 00:33:17,064 Speaker 3: I think they'd like to put some of that stuff 605 00:33:17,104 --> 00:33:19,744 Speaker 3: out there because it keeps people talking about stuff It's like, 606 00:33:19,824 --> 00:33:21,824 Speaker 3: what watch what I put out over here and then 607 00:33:21,904 --> 00:33:23,744 Speaker 3: not what I'm doing over here. I might be stealing 608 00:33:23,744 --> 00:33:26,864 Speaker 3: money through crypto schemes over here, but you can talk 609 00:33:26,904 --> 00:33:28,184 Speaker 3: about Fort Knox over here. 610 00:33:28,264 --> 00:33:31,064 Speaker 4: I do legitimately think that is at least part of 611 00:33:31,344 --> 00:33:34,904 Speaker 4: the Trump administration releasing all of these files that they 612 00:33:34,944 --> 00:33:38,304 Speaker 4: have is there's people like us out here who are 613 00:33:38,344 --> 00:33:42,864 Speaker 4: doing these conspiracy theory podcasts, and the Trump administration is 614 00:33:43,024 --> 00:33:45,424 Speaker 4: doing a lot of things that are worthy of being 615 00:33:45,504 --> 00:33:49,544 Speaker 4: talked about on shows like this, and if they can 616 00:33:49,544 --> 00:33:53,984 Speaker 4: distract people with RFK or JFK instead, that's all the better. 617 00:33:54,064 --> 00:33:58,024 Speaker 4: The JFK files are fascinating. They start with something like 618 00:33:58,024 --> 00:34:02,224 Speaker 4: two hundred pages of meeting notes that are just the 619 00:34:02,264 --> 00:34:04,824 Speaker 4: committee that a lot of people think killed JFK. 620 00:34:05,144 --> 00:34:06,864 Speaker 2: It was and it was really good talking to you. 621 00:34:06,864 --> 00:34:10,703 Speaker 2: You've got some great insights into conspiracy they and how 622 00:34:10,744 --> 00:34:15,584 Speaker 2: they impact on our society. So keep up the good work. 623 00:34:15,663 --> 00:34:17,703 Speaker 2: And where could people go to follow you? 624 00:34:18,024 --> 00:34:22,104 Speaker 4: I'm on all of the social media's at Adam Todd Brown. 625 00:34:22,304 --> 00:34:24,823 Speaker 4: That's Todd with one D. My mom spelled it wrong. 626 00:34:24,944 --> 00:34:28,584 Speaker 4: It means death in German. My podcast conspiracy show. You 627 00:34:28,584 --> 00:34:31,783 Speaker 4: can get wherever podcasts are at the Monday show in 628 00:34:31,824 --> 00:34:32,464 Speaker 4: your area. 629 00:34:32,623 --> 00:34:34,824 Speaker 3: What in the world, Well, great, Thank you again. 630 00:34:38,263 --> 00:34:43,344 Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher, 631 00:34:43,623 --> 00:34:48,663 Speaker 6: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. 632 00:34:48,663 --> 00:34:52,223 Speaker 6: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for 633 00:34:52,344 --> 00:34:53,504 Speaker 6: iHeart Podcasts.