1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nol. They called 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decade. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: want you to know. Folks, Thank you as always for 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: tuning in. Today's episode heads Up is going to be 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: a bit of a bummer. Breathe deep and explore it 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: with us. This is an important story. If you'd like 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: to hear something a little less heavy, we totally understand. 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Check out our recent crypt It episodes. Particularly like to 15 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: recommend the mystery of the Thunderbird. Uh. But today we're 16 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: talking about a genuine conspiracy, not a conspiracy theory, and 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: it's a very old conspiracy. It's multigenerational, it ranges across 18 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: the planet. It doesn't really know any borders at this point. 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: It is a conspiracy that has likely directly affected you 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: in some way already, and it may well affect you 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: in the future. None of this can be taken for 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: medical advice. But we've talked about this off air and 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: agree it is a story that needs to be told. 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Asbestos. Here the facts. First off, we've all 25 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: heard the phrase, but what what is asbestos exactly? It's 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: something that I think a lot of people. UM, we 27 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: don't know the specifics about it. We're gonna do as 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: best as we can though, to describe it to you. Sorry, 29 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: I still that joke from d News. Um, but it's true. 30 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Asbestos is a I mean, there was a time where 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: it was considered a wonder. It's cereal. Um. It is 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: a kind of fibrous silicate material that is naturally occurring. 33 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, um, and it occurs in six different types, 34 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: and it's very very old. We have evidence of it 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: dating far back in history and we'll get into that. 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: But for most of human history, asbestos was known for 37 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: its high heat resistance. It's also waterproof and largely indestructible. UM. 38 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: You can find multiple examples of the stuff in the 39 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: ancient world. Uh. There were stories of these quote unquote 40 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: napkins that could be cleaned by literally setting them on fire. Um. 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 1: And you are tossing them into an open fire. Yeah. Yeah, 42 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: it's a it's a silicate mineral specifically, so you'll hear 43 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: in advertisements of years gone by, you'll hear being called 44 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: a miracle rock or uh something like that, and it's 45 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: somewhere between. You know, it's it's natural forms can be 46 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: adapted and revised, so it can funct and as a powder, 47 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: it can function as like it will look like a 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: bunch of string. You may associate it with the way 49 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: that insulation looks because it's used in insulation. I love 50 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: your that you're bringing up the napkin story because there 51 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: are multiple examples in the ancient world of like there 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: was this flex that wealthy people in Persia were known 53 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: to do. You know, you'd eat a meal with a 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: guest and then you would be like, hold my beer, 55 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: watch this, and you would take your dirty napkin, you 56 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: throw it in the fireplace, and when when the fire 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: is out, you take it out and you're like, oh, 58 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: like it might clean napkin. This is what being rich is, Like, 59 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: what are you the king of France so you can 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: just set your napkins on fire? Um No, it's true. 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: It's neat too, because you can have it as like 62 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: a solid and then you can apply heat to it 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: and literally stretch it out and it becomes this almost 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know, it makes me think of floam 65 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: or something or one of those like what is that 66 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: stuff you bleck? You know, where it goes from one 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: state to another depending on the conditions. Um so something 68 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: that you can actually kind of almost do like a 69 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: little magic trick with to impress your guests. It's similar 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: in that way to like a non Newtonian fluid, the 71 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: stuff that doesn't obey the usual rules of viscosity. You've 72 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: probably had an experiment with that, or maybe your kids 73 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: have had an experiment with that in school, folks. It's true. 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: People knew about the stuff for thousands of years, and 75 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: everybody for thousands of years, everybody was basically like the 76 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: excited person on an infomercial going, oh my god, I 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: can't believe it's that easy. You know, now fire is 78 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: no longer our enemy. Charlemagne had a tablecloth made of 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: his bestness. Marco Polo even claims, well historians believe he 80 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: ran into an asbestos mine. He called it Salamander, which 81 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: is a way cooler name based on you know, the 82 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 1: old idea of salamanders being animals that were immune to fire. 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: We mentioned the heat resistance, we mentioned the water resistance. 84 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: It's a poor conductor of a electricity, which you know 85 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: didn't matter at the beginning of human history, but became 86 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: progressively more important as technology evolved. But the big question 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: is what what does it do? Like it would be 88 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: rare to go to a store, even even back at 89 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: the height of asbestos popularity, and just by straight up 90 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: asbestos as by itself, you know, so like um, we 91 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: we need to understand what the public liked about it 92 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: and how it became so common. And that's the thing 93 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: I mean. Asbestos was largely used as an additive to 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: strengthen things and make them more fireproof. Um. The large 95 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: scale asbestos industry started around the mid nineteenth century and 96 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: it became hugely popular by the end of the nineteenth century. 97 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: It was used in everything. I think I saw a 98 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: stat that said there were thousands of products that that 99 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: had asbestos in them, everything from concrete and bricks to 100 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: cement and hype insulation, drywall and roofing, anything that you 101 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: wanted to make stronger and more resilient to the elements 102 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: and again, fireproofing that was asbestos was was your guy, 103 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: and it made clear sense to do this because people 104 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: generally don't like buildings on fire. And there the list. 105 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: Actually I cut the list down because it was in 106 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: so very many things, things that were often uh invisible 107 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: to the average person. You wouldn't walk into a building 108 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: and automatically be able to tell something had uh that 109 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: you were walking on concrete that had asbestos as a filler, 110 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 1: or that asbestos had been sprayed maybe on the walls. 111 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: It was able to, you know, it was able to 112 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: provide all the benefits that had as a natural substance. 113 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: And people were not wrong when they called it a miracle. 114 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: It's not hyperbole, is what I'm saying to say that 115 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: this stuff was everywhere. Like Wizard of Oz, for example, 116 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: one of you could call asbestos. One of the supporting 117 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: actors in Wizard of Oz all that fake snow pure asbestos. 118 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: The witches Broom also is best this the Scarecrow's entire costume, 119 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: his whole fit. If you guess as bestest fellow conspiracy 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: realist and ding Ding, you are three for three. Was 121 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: that to help fire proof it when they set him 122 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: on fire? When the Witch and the way exactly the 123 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: witches broom caught on fire, the scarecrow catches on fire. 124 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: It was like a very low tech kind of you know. 125 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: Back then they also didn't have very much safety precautions 126 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: on film sets. So there it is. It's fine to 127 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: spray with as best, doesn't mean catch him on fire 128 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: and it will be a cool bit. Yeah, And the 129 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz is its own carries with it its 130 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: own bevy of conspiracy back from the what was the 131 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: makeup on the Tin Man was apparently had a luminium 132 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: minute or something, And there's Atlas Obscura article just about 133 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: the asbestos aspects that uses the Wizard of Oz's name check. 134 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: But the story goes much deeper than that. And the 135 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: Floyd thing is true, super cool. Yeah, it is. Whether 136 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: it was intentional or not, it is a thing. It 137 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: is a phenomenon to behold. I highly recommend anyone that's 138 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: in the Pink Floyd try do in the sinking up 139 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: of the Dark Side of the Moon with the Wizard 140 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: of Oz. You won't be sorry. And as we're going through, 141 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about in a movie, so we're talking about 142 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: kind of the origins of it. But at the height. 143 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: This stuff was in absolutely every building constructed, at least 144 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: within the United States and in many other countries if 145 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: it was built essentially from the nineteen fifties onwards, some 146 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: let's say, until the nineteen seventies, when it was like 147 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: fully phased out as a construction or a part of construction. 148 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: But we're talking about ubiquitous everything from the roof to 149 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: the ground. There was asbestos in your stuff. And it 150 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: was even being pitched like two consumers, like to two 151 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: individual folks who maybe wanted to do a building project 152 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: or you know, do some upgrades on their house. There's 153 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: this really fantastic ad uh that we found in a 154 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: Vice News documentary. It's clearly like you know, public domain. 155 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: If we could play a couple of seconds of that 156 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: and it will give you a sense of like how 157 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: much a part of the Zeitgeids at the time asbestos was. 158 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: Asbestos is a remarkable mineral, actually stone. It is made 159 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: up of tiny but extremely strong and flexible fibers. It 160 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: was absolutely fire safe and water couldn't harm it. We 161 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: suggest you consider this material for your home, designed to 162 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: last a lifetime, a trouble free lifetime. I gotta be honest, 163 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: I love the way people speak in those ads. That's great. Yeah, 164 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: sometimes they're selling terrible things, but there's there's just something 165 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: about the pep in there. You know. It's quite a 166 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: bit of pep, quite a bit of pep. I just 167 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: have to say, living in a house that was built 168 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: like right now where I am, this was built in 169 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, so we didn't know whether or not 170 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: our house was built with asbestos or lead paint or 171 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: any of those things. And we I guess we got 172 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: some documentation, but it just said we don't know. Isn't 173 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: there a lead paid disclosure clause that has to be 174 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: in like any lease or you know, homesale. Um, it's 175 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: like it you have to disclose asbestos as well, I believe, well, yes, 176 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: but there is a place to sign. Yeah, we're unsure, 177 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: further testing needed and this uh, and this is legal 178 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: that that's a legal situation where now, UM, I don't 179 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: know if it's fair, but that's that's the law of 180 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: the land, and that happens. Uh. You know what, Actually, 181 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: if you depend on where you live, folks, you have 182 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: probably run into this. And it's something that's easy for 183 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people to miss in their lease paperwork 184 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: or there. You know, when you're signing a contract for 185 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: a house, because you have to sign so many things 186 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: on so many pages, just read the fine print carefully. 187 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: By the time that like in this era, this post 188 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: World War Two era, fifties through the seventies, like Matt 189 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: you had just said, it got to a point where 190 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: it would be highly unusual for you to walk into 191 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: a large building that did not have some form of asbestos. 192 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: It would be like finding a vegan restaurant in eastern Europe. 193 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: There there, but you have to you have to look 194 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: pretty pretty carefully. Um. So far, it sounds like we're 195 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: talking about something you would hear on a podcast version 196 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: of This Old House? Right, how do I restore my 197 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: manister with asbestos? Um? But this is a show about 198 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: critical thinking applied to conspiracies. We said there was a 199 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: real multigenerational conspiracy of foot here. Why are we talking 200 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: about today? It turns out that asbestos has a dark 201 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: side to its miraculous nature. It may be great at 202 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: preventing fires, but it's also great at something else, killing 203 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: human beings. We're gonna pause for word from our sponsor, 204 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: and then we're diving into the dark waters of a 205 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: miracle substance. Here's where it gets crazy. There's a huge 206 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: as best discover up. It's enormous. Think of the biggest 207 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: cover up you can imagine. This is bigger. This just 208 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: mopped at p VP. You may have already heard about this, 209 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: but you probably do not know how deep it goes. Yeah, 210 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: it's like the big brother and the kind of progenitor 211 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: to the teflon you know, p F a cover up 212 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: featuring DuPont that we've covered in previous episodes. I mean, 213 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: this is like the o g um toxic cover up material. 214 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, agreed. I mean I was surprised to find. 215 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: We know that there are a lot of modern complaints 216 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: and lawsuits and laws and controversies about asbestos today, but 217 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: the first complaints and concerns, like provable health concerns about 218 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: his best this date back to the eighteen hundreds. Like 219 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: eight there was a guy named h. Montague Murray who 220 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: explicitly noted the deleterious health effects of this substance. Shout 221 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: out to our friends on Facebook. I did pay attention. 222 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: You are right, and thank you, uh said the uh 223 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: you'll see this other you'll see this claim that people 224 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: in the days of ancient Rome may have also had 225 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: concerns about as bestus and its health effects, but there's 226 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: not really a primary source to back that up. That's 227 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: just one of those that's the definition of a factoid, right, 228 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: Like it sounds like it would be true, it sounds factual, 229 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: but it's not. It's really the late eighteen hundreds when 230 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: we see the um what I would consider the first 231 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: modern let's call them actionable reports of danger. Here, Ben, 232 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: thank you for schooling me. I've been using factoid incorrectly 233 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: for years and I just thought it was like a 234 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: cute little fact nugget. But it turns out that it 235 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: is inherently faults right. That's yeah. But that's the thing, 236 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: man Um with this language, how ultimately we're all kind 237 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: of crowdsourcing, right, we're all voting. So if enough people 238 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: use a word one way, if we all act like 239 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: Alice Wonderland's Humpty dumpty, then it just means what we want. 240 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: That's how you end up with the beautiful things in English, 241 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: where you have words like perus, which are their own antonyms. Right, 242 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: Perus means both to just sort of flip through something 243 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: and then it means also to scrutinize every word and 244 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: read carefully. So I think a fact that it can 245 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: be both things. And if we can convince our fellow 246 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: conspiracy realists to agree, then uh, we may have just 247 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: started the biggest, most unnecessary conspiracy of our careers. I 248 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: love it this. Weve been working towards this whole time. Guys, 249 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: it's all time. So, the first clearly documented death due 250 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: to asbestos occurred in nineteen o six, um, but again 251 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: based on how far back we know the stuff was 252 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: being used widely, Surely there were many many more that 253 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: preceded it, But we're talking about the nineteenth century here 254 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: was a long, long time ago. Um, what exactly makes 255 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: asbestos bad for human beings? And more importantly, why were 256 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: people not told of these risks if we had that 257 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: level of like history. Yeah, the first question is unfortunately 258 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: pretty easy to answer. Asbestos can cause a number of 259 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: medical conditions provable and a number of certain cancers. And 260 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: it's not as if it's necessarily always just a contributing factor. 261 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: In a couple of cases, we'll see that these conditions 262 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: are almost exclusively caused by asbestos, you know what I mean? Like, 263 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: it's it's like the Riddler or the Joker leaving a 264 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: trademark piece of swag at the scene of a crime. 265 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: You can cause it's I mean, I'm not trying to 266 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: be glib, but that is like if you're a doctor, 267 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: you can tell there's some conditions that just means someone 268 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: ran into asbestos. I'm sorry I laugh because I don't 269 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: know if you guys have seen the new trailer for 270 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: the The Batman movie that's coming out, but the Riddler 271 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: is a character and the first thing you see in 272 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: the trailer is like a spooky like pushing at a 273 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: diner to a latte that has a question mark in it, 274 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: and like that's like, that's the creepy thing he left 275 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: behind was latte art. I couldn't. I thought that was 276 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: a really odd choice. I'm interested to see where they 277 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: go with the Riddler because they're trying to more of 278 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: a um less of a camp be vibe. And I 279 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: like Paul Dano a lot, Like, you know, he's a 280 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: excellent actor, and this movie apparently is gonna have a 281 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: lot more you know, gritty kind of like serial killer vibes. 282 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: So I'm definitely on board. But I didn't think it 283 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: was a little bit of an odd thing to lead with. Yeah, agreed, agreed, 284 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: But but if you imagine, you know your you're a doctor, 285 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: and again we're not giving medical advice. If you see 286 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: someone that has a condition known as sothelioma, then you know, 287 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: asbest as was involved, it was the hand behind the trigger. 288 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: I mean, signs of this condition, this insidious and enormously unjust. 289 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: Signs of this condition might not appear until thirty or 290 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: forty years after exposure, which means that somebody could be 291 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 1: exposed as a kid, or they could have grown up 292 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: in a mining town. There were hundreds of those in 293 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: the US, and then not until later in life, maybe 294 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: thirty five, forty five years old, all of a sudden 295 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: they get these kinds of conditions. So we're also talking 296 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: cancer of the stomach, colorectum, fair nix, and so on. 297 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: With mesothelioma in particular, too, you might not see the 298 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: signs of it for thirty or forty years. But then 299 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: it's also the kind of thing that takes a very 300 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: long time to kill you, and it's very brutal and slow, 301 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: and you know, you have to be on oxygen and 302 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: you just like you know, short of breath all the time. 303 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: I think it actually creates um fluid in the lungs. 304 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: So when you when you see people that have it, 305 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: they're breathing is just the most painful, labored thing you 306 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: could possibly imagine. It is absolutely heartbreaking. Uh. There's a 307 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: mining town in um Montana, Libby, Montana that has been 308 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: looked at as like a great example of what long 309 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: term asbestos exposure does, and there's several documentaries about it. 310 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: You can find that where they interview residents and many 311 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: of them that they talked to for the documentaries are 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: doing just that. And it's very hard to watch, but 313 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: I think an important to watch. And that's not the 314 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: only problem with breathing that asbestos exposure can cause. There's 315 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: also this thing where it can scar your lungs. It 316 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: can physically scar your lungs by breathing in those fibers 317 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: and the parts that you may not even notice. It's 318 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: it's like stuff that's just in the air and you 319 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: would just be breathing it, especially if you're working near it. 320 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: But even if you're living near a place where let's 321 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: say explosions occur in a mind that are trying to 322 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: get asbestos out it's called a spistosis, and it is 323 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: another one of those horrible things where you're just going 324 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: to be dealing with it because that's what your your 325 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: life is now. You have scarred lungs and it's way 326 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: harder for you to breathe, and you can't unscar the 327 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: lungs exactly. One of the things that makes us best 328 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: to such a you know, resilient building material is the 329 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: idea that it's very hard to destroy. That's also true 330 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: once it gets into your body, you know. Yeah. Yeah. 331 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: And these fibers on an individual level, are microscopic. They 332 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: are invisible to the unaided eye, which means that if 333 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: you are walking through an area contaminated with this, you 334 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: are not going to notice. You are just going to 335 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: be breathing as normal until you're not. There's another non 336 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: cancerous lung condition and causes called plural disease, which involves 337 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: damage to the membrane known as the plura that surrounds 338 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: the lung and chest cavities. Uh. And this is what 339 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: we're listing here, folks. This is not a list of 340 00:19:54,920 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: just potential problems. Even today, right now, asbestos exposure is 341 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: believed to be the number one cause of work related 342 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: deaths in the world, and I haven't seen a dangerous 343 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: jobs about that on Discovery, but like, approximately nine thousand 344 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: people are going to die from an asbestos related disease 345 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: this year, and right now an estimated hundred and twenty 346 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: five million people remain at risk of regular occupational exposure 347 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: to asbestos. These are not these are estimates, but these 348 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: are not necessarily estimates that are up for debate. People 349 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: have done the homework, you know, the subreddit for this 350 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: would be like they did the math or something like that. Uh, 351 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: asbestos is still such a dangerous thing because it was 352 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: embedded in so much of the world's construction for such 353 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: a long time, but also because the nature of the 354 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: damage it does means that people will live with it 355 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: for a long time without knowing that damage has occurred. 356 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: And a lot of people were involved in the industry 357 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: as best as mining was huge, you know, we said 358 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: there were more. There were like hundreds of mining towns. 359 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: There were more than a hundred operating mines in the 360 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: US alone, from like the sixties in the early seventies 361 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: when it reached its height, it was the industry was 362 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: this is weird. The industry was growing as awareness of 363 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: the dangers were growing, they were happening at the same time, 364 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: which is kind of unusual. Uh well, it makes sense 365 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: why there would be a cover up if yeah, oh yeah, yeah. 366 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's profitable and it was easy to get 367 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: right out of the ground, you know, in these mining towns, 368 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: and you ended up with situations where the one town 369 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: like Libby for example, was built around this industry. And 370 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,239 Speaker 1: even if as the people there maybe you're starting to 371 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: worry or be concerned, they also don't want to lose 372 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: their lively it. I mean, we know how some of 373 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: these smaller kind of rural towns, if an industry goes 374 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,239 Speaker 1: belly up, so does the town. So it's it's a 375 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: weird kind of double edged sword where they're like, oh, 376 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: maybe this is really bad for us, but also we 377 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: don't really want to lose our one industry, so maybe 378 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: we'll keep our mouth shut about this condition that we 379 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: might have developed. Yeah, and that goes to the local, state, 380 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: local level and state level officials. That also, you know, 381 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 1: if anybody's lived in a one industry town, you know 382 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: that every job ultimately relies upon that industry. Even if 383 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: you're you know, like you're the you're the h family 384 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: that runs the local diner. You've never been in a 385 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: coal mine, But if the coal mine closes, then the 386 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: diner isn't isn't far off from closing as well. And 387 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: that you set us up earlier when you talked about 388 00:22:53,760 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: open pit mining, which was the primary technique for for 389 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: mining asbestos in the US and also across the planet. Um, 390 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: let's maybe talk a little bit about this. What was 391 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: open pit mining? What makes it different from other types 392 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: of mining. You've probably seen pictures of a mine like 393 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: this before. It almost looks like tiered like roads that 394 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: go around almost in an invertiment inverted pyramid style, right, Um, 395 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: they kind of go down towards the towards the lowest 396 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: level like that. The way to get the asbestos out 397 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: in a mining situation like this is to plant explosives 398 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: in one section. That would if you imagine a going 399 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: all across a very long section and then you'd explode 400 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: what exists there. Then you'd gather all of that up, 401 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: all of that rock and you know, dirt and everything 402 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: that's in there, and you you basically get the asbestos 403 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: and the usable substances and minerals out from that stuff. 404 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: You explode it out from the major rock structure. Yeah, 405 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: and as you can tell when those explosions occur, this 406 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: also fractures or you know, splinters the asbestos, and you 407 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: have tiny microscopic pieces of contaminant that are in the 408 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: air and unavoidable without protection. This isn't something where you 409 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: can just hold your breath, you know what I mean. 410 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: Not only that, I mean it's similar to the way 411 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: radioactive materials are carried, you know, fallout zones, et cetera. 412 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not exactly the same, but this material, 413 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: being so durable, it just kind of goes to the 414 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: surrounding areas on the wind and then ends up in 415 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: the water supply. And I'll manner of other ways that 416 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: people can absorb it the clothing of the miners, say, 417 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: for example, even like you know, children or family members, 418 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: even if they're not directly breathing the stuff in from 419 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: the explosion, they might be subjected to it when their 420 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: family member comes home and the stuff is all over 421 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: their clothes. Yeah. It's important to note that when it 422 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: becomes aerosolized like that, it really does get everywhere, including 423 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: the sand and stones and rocks on beaches, and you know, 424 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: around waterfronts, on the water itself, on the plant life, 425 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: on the animals, on I mean, it's just it gets 426 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: everywhere because it's traveling through the air like this unseen 427 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: misst it's just permeating everything. Yeah, forget communism, there's another 428 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: invisible enemy in America. At this time, right, Uh, people 429 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: were also beginning to understand that asbestos may not be 430 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: quite the miracle manufacturers would telling them it was. By 431 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, medical journals in this country had already 432 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: published articles linking asbestos to asbestosis, which, again, if a 433 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: disease or condition is named after a substances thing, yeah, 434 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to say, oh no, we didn't know, 435 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: you know, there are only too many letters in the 436 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: alphabet whatever. We'll get to it later too. But another 437 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: place that is named after the thing as a mining 438 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: town in Russia called asbest because they're really proud of 439 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: their asbestos mining industry. That is, unfortunately, I believe, still 440 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: going on today. Yeah, with a huge monument actually carved 441 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: u asbestos and everything. Yeah, as bestos is is uh 442 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: this fatal lung condition, like you guys were saying, where 443 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: it's scars the human breathing mechanism. Doctors again back in 444 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: the twenties. In the nineteen thirties, they were saying, you know, 445 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: probably the best way to prevent this condition, the scarring 446 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: of the lungs, is to you know, limit people's exposure 447 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: to asbestos. That seems pretty conclusive. Nobody was disagreeing. This 448 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: wasn't a matter of serious debate amid those in the 449 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: medical community. But it would still take decades and decades 450 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: before this stuff was regulated in the US, and decades 451 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: before workers were ever told that they're jobs were giving 452 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: them cancer. So this leads us to another question. Why 453 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: why the gap in information? Why was it still used 454 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: so widely? And why is it even being used today? 455 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 1: These are questions will tackle after word from our sponsors. 456 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: We've returned. So how about that second question. We've answered, 457 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: why and how asbestos is bad for humans? Why wasn't 458 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: the public aware of these risks? There's no way around this, folks. 459 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: Scientists had clearly linked asbestus to cancer right around the 460 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. Right around the same time, doctors made real 461 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: progress in understanding meslothy leoma, and some of the progress 462 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: they made was figuring out, oh hey, this is pretty 463 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: much only caused by his bestness. Like the vast major 464 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: already of these cases are from people who have been 465 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: exposed to this one substance. And at the same time 466 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: this evidence began to grow, the influence a very powerful 467 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: asbestos companies grew as well. Like make no mistake, you 468 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: don't maybe hear about them too often in the news, 469 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: but mining companies are a big deal. They have a 470 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of political clout in various countries, and they have 471 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of financial power because people are hooked on 472 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: what they provide from the earth or what they take 473 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: from the earth, um literally pulling money out of the ground. 474 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: Hashtag Black Monday murders. Over over the course of four decades. Uh, 475 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: if you look at the period from the forties, ninet 476 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: forties to the nineteen eighties, this group, I don't want 477 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: to call him a cabal, but this group of manufacturers 478 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: in the asbestos industry, they grew their business into a 479 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: multibillion dollar enterprise. They employed hundreds of thousands of people, 480 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: and they knew, they knew good and damn well that 481 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: their success depended upon keeping the problems with asbestos a 482 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: secret for as long as possible. Not a conspiracy theory, 483 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: actual conspiracy. They conspired, they did it. You could see 484 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: a solid timeline for this on asbestos dot com. Um, 485 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: there is one problem though they're not problem. But there's 486 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: a thing you should know about asbestos dot com. It 487 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: is a for profit entity. It is there to help 488 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: you file legal claims for asbestos related conditions. Still looking 489 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: into their research and what they've gathered, even though of 490 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: course you know they would be a biased source. Uh. 491 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: Their their research is sound. They know what they're talking about. Um, 492 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: they go there. If you look at their timeline, which 493 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: is available for free online, it starts around eighty eight 494 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: with the founding of John's Manville man an asbestos manufacturer 495 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: that will go on to become the top dog in 496 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: the world in this in this thing, and therefore they 497 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: were on the front lines of the cover up. Yeah, 498 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: it really is devastating to actually look at the entire 499 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: time timeline that they've got there at asbestos dot Com. 500 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: I would say it's very strange to me that within 501 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: their timeline they jumped from nineteen forty nine to nineteen 502 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: sixty two and there's nothing in the nineteen fifties. And 503 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: one of the main reasons it's because the nineteen fifties 504 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: was boom time for putting asbestos in things. It was like, 505 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: let's go, boys, get that asbestos in there as quick 506 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: as we can. I guess nobody was worried about, you know, 507 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: anything else. Well, let's not forget too Ben. You mentioned 508 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: that the town of Asbest in Russia has a sculpture 509 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: made out of asbestos. So this really was a super 510 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: versatile material. Like if you look at some of these 511 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: documentaries we're talking about, you'll see people showing you little 512 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: artifacts and little drinkets made of asbestos and handling them 513 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: like it's no big deal. Yeah, exactly, kind of the 514 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: same way people would drink out a leaded glass with 515 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: no worries, you know what I mean. Uh, we we 516 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: see that this this timeline, as you as you guys mentioned, 517 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: is it's uneven. It has some gaps, but it does 518 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: generally map out in detail actions by various leaders of 519 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: industry to suppress the information, to keep it from the public. 520 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: And they were at this for a very long time. 521 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: And back in a group of as best as manufacturers 522 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,479 Speaker 1: contacted a guy named Dr Anthony Lanza, who was a 523 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: medical director at Metropolitan Life Insurance, which we'll get to 524 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: in a second, asked them to investigate disease among as 525 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: best as factory workers. And he came back and he said, hey, 526 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, these guys all show incredibly high rates of 527 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: asbestos related to diseases. And they were like cool, thanks 528 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: for playing doc. And then they buried his results. They 529 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: suppressed it. They probably had him signed something agreeing that 530 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: he wouldn't talk about this. Metropolitan Life Insurance would go 531 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: on to actively participate in the cover up, to help 532 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: swindle employees out of medical care, to deny their claims 533 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: and so on. Uh. They also manipulated studies to downplay 534 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: the seriousness of some conditions. Over across the pond in 535 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: the UK, manufacturer called Turner and Newell convinced cough Cough, 536 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: bribed cough Cough British officials to like limit regulations and 537 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: dial back any safety inspections. It wasn't until like nineteen 538 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: sixty four so that the tide started turning. And that 539 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: is sadly because a lot of people saw someone they 540 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: knew die or be afflicted with some mysterious lung condition 541 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: and work on the street. Everybody in a given region 542 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: new if you live near this mine, if you live 543 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: in this town, you have a much higher likelihood of 544 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: not just getting a cancer or a kind of cancer, 545 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: but a short list of very specific ones. And so 546 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: this is when his best those manufacturers did what Corporate 547 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: America calls a pivot. They got out in public and 548 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: they said, we were as surprised as you we we 549 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: had we had no idea. And some people believe them, 550 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: and maybe they were convincing. But later internal memos from 551 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: these companies talking with themselves, like multiple companies conspiring, and 552 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: court paperwork depositions, they all proved this was a lie. 553 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: There's one Bendix Corporation employee from nineteen six who wrote, 554 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, if you've enjoyed a good life while working 555 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: with asbestos products, why not die from it. I'm sorry, 556 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to laugh. This terrible. It's like it's 557 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: it's brilliant copyrighting is what it is, um. But it's 558 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: also inherently nihilistic and missing the point kind of you know. Um. 559 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: One of the experts in one of the documentaries I watched, 560 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: I think it was the Vice one, said, how at 561 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: this scale, if a company knows what they're putting out 562 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: in the world, is going to kill you, then they 563 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: are committing mass murder. They may not know who it's 564 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: gonna kill or when it's going to kill them, but 565 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: if they're you know, maintaining that level of negligence, uh, 566 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: you know, in favor of profit over you know, human rights, 567 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: than they are in fact mass murderers. Well, let's talk 568 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: about the Bendix concept really quickly, the one that you 569 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: just mentioned. There have been um with regards to all 570 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: of us. Imagine that you are working for a company 571 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: and you've been working there for a long time. You've 572 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: been making pretty good money, you've been supporting let's say 573 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: your family, right, and you're continuing to make pretty good money. 574 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: You find out that by working there, by exposure to 575 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: whatever chemical you're dealing of, you are likely going to 576 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: die at some point from a disease it's going to 577 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: cause inside of you, you know, And if you're informed 578 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: with that information, you can make the decision to continue 579 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: working there, to continue to support your family until you 580 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: do eventually die. Um. And that's that is one thing 581 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: for me, that's one decision. Right, What if you find 582 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: out that you're not the only one that's going to 583 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: die in your family because you're doing that that maybe 584 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: everybody in your family is going to be exposed to 585 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: the same stuff because they're using the products. It's not 586 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: just the manufacturing process, it's also the use of the product. 587 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: Like that to me is a whole different it's just 588 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: a different Yes. But wasn't it not until like the 589 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: two thousands even that like the World Health Organization actually 590 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: made a stand on this or that it was you know, 591 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: really kind of considered verboting because I have distinct memory 592 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: of going to this high school I've mentioned this before, 593 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: um where it was an old building and you got 594 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: a new school, brand new shining school, and everyone you know, 595 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: moved to the new school. But the old school was 596 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: known to be an asbestos hazard and there was all 597 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: of this like efforts to do this asbestos removal. So 598 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: this wouldn't have been in the two thousand. This is 599 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: probably in like the mid nineties. So when did the 600 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: public consciousness really shift in like cancel asbestos in the 601 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: United States been UH in the United States. The first 602 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: lawsuits date back to nineteen seventy one, which is still 603 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: was a century after those concerns for first raise UH, 604 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: and court evidence has gone on to show that multiple 605 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: companies contributed knowingly to this. Uh. Some had, like we said, 606 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: buried research. Others had kept information from their employees, like 607 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: to the point where you'd have to see the company doctor, 608 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: and the company doctor wouldn't show you your X rays 609 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: and you would just be They would just have you 610 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: continue working as normal until you died or were physically unable, 611 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, to breathe well enough to work the mind. Okay, 612 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: So it was nineteen seventy eight when the United States 613 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: officially banned asbestos. But because it had been used for 614 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 1: so long, that means that all of these homes were 615 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: just chock full of asbestos, like my high school. And 616 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: so then asbestos removal became a whole industry, and I 617 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: think off my or off air. Then you were mentioning 618 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: how it's like one of the least regulated, like you know, oh, anybody, 619 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: any schmuck can like be an asbestos removal technician. And 620 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: I mentioned that in the Sopranos there was a subplot 621 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: where they were running a racket for asbestos removal, because 622 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, the idea would be, yeah, remove it from 623 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: the place, but then you gotta do something with it 624 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 1: so it's not further contaminating you know, other people's water 625 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: supplies or whatever. It needs to be dealt with in 626 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: some sort of you know, particular way, But in the 627 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: show they just dumped it into into like the East River. Um. 628 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting though? How like you know, science kind 629 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: of creates a thing that is then used and then 630 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: science has to create a solution. Um. And it's also 631 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: wrapped up in industry and just money making and so 632 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: corners get cut and we're probably still dealing with the 633 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: fallout from asbestos today. Absolutely. Yeah, if we if we 634 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: look back at this timeline, we know that once John's 635 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: Manville became the number one manufacturer of this substance. Uh. 636 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: We we can actually do someday I usually don't like 637 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: to do, which is to put a face on a 638 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: nefarious corporate activity. But we'll give you a single person 639 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: to think about. His name is Lewis H. Brown. Um. 640 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: The scientific term for him would be a real piece 641 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: of sue. In nine four, there was this deposition where 642 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: these different these different attorneys and officials were describing a 643 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: eating that had occurred between Louis H. Brown. Uh, an 644 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: attorney for John's Manville called Van Diver Brown no relation 645 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: I believe, and officials from another firm making as best 646 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: as called un Arco. And this guy, Charles Romer was 647 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: talking this deposition and he recalls uh interchange Lewis Brown 648 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,959 Speaker 1: had about his employees health, and he says, quote, I'll 649 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: never forget. I turned to Mr Brown. One of the 650 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: Browns made this crack that Unarcho managers were a bunch 651 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: of fools for notifying employees who had as bestoses. And 652 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: I said, Mr Brown, do you mean to tell me 653 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: that you would let them work until they dropped dead? 654 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: He said, yeah, we save a lot of money that way. 655 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: Who just straight upset? You know in a deposition? No, no, 656 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: them is saying this in a deposition. Brown's not there now. 657 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: I don't think he had quite that level of Hutzpah. Okay, 658 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not even gonna take it back because 659 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: I was confused, because the level of this guy had 660 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: almost would would be the kind of thing where he'd 661 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I did it. Of course, you know 662 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: what else are I gonna do? We gotta make money? Um, 663 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: what am I going to be? Poor? Poor? I swear 664 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: if I have to go from being super rich just rich, 665 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill myself. He's like, your honor, I dismissed 666 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: this case, and the judges like, that's not how courts work. 667 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: You don't get that luxury. So this is really just 668 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: kind of like you know, been to your point, kind 669 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: of like a little bit of a snapshot of how 670 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: callous some of the people at the top were. Uh 671 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: they knew people were dying, they absolutely didn't care. When 672 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: the public outcry led to all of these lawsuits, the 673 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: government finally did take action and impose regulations. And like 674 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: I said, in nineteen seventy, the stuff was outright banned. Um. 675 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: And now when we think of asbestos, what do we 676 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: think of We think of the bad stuff we think 677 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: of it's the stuff this I Gacy stuff that was 678 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: in everything and now is like a boondoggle on our 679 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, public health. Um, I'm you know, asbestos removal 680 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: continues to this day. Oh yeah, it is still because 681 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: there's so many buildings. I think, you know, it's we 682 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: can't really understand how ubiquitous this stuff was. It's like 683 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 1: if all of a sudden, a toilet became a toxic thing. 684 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: Just the concept of the toilet. I was in New 685 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: York recently on vacation. I was like, for some reason, 686 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: because I do dumb things like this, I was like, 687 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: I wonder how many toilets there are in New York City. 688 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: It's a lot, It's gonna be a lot. And with asbestos, 689 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: it's not even only in one product, It's in all 690 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: of these building materials. So the idea of asbestos removal 691 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: is a generational concept, you know. I mean, they're gonna 692 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: keep doing it. Wouldn't be funny if John's Man'sville was 693 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: the number one worldwide asbestos removal corporation in that's a 694 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: Now that's a pivot. Ye, Now that's a serious. Yeah. 695 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: Let's just like as of we we we like, we 696 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: infected everyone, we exposed everyone to asbestos, and now we 697 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: see the air of our ways. And also it happened 698 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: to aligne with a real good money making scheme of 699 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: removing the asbestos that we put into the world. I mean, well, 700 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: good advertising is always about creating a need instead of 701 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: identifying it. Um and we do want to point out, 702 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, like just for example, when I said at 703 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: the top, the people you you were probably personally infected 704 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: by this in some way, just for an example from 705 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: our own lives, the building in which our office is based, 706 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: pont City Market had to get a deep clean to 707 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: remove lead based paint and asbestos. And I do want 708 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: to say that people who are working in the asbestos 709 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 1: removal industry right now are doing a good thing. And 710 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: it's not easy, and it is dangerous, and there's not 711 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: it's not really a an operation with an end in 712 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: sight because there's so much there in a very away. 713 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: The current generations are are paying for the mistakes of 714 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: generations past, and other companies definitely helped with this. There 715 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: are still lawsuits continuing. If we look at his best 716 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,240 Speaker 1: as today right now, like in this year, his bestness 717 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: will kill twelve thousand and fifteen thousand people in the 718 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: US alone. People in John's Man'sville, by the way, pulled 719 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: a sackler. They didn't go to jail. You don't go 720 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: to jail. And and and just to answer a question 721 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: that I asked a while ago, like when you do 722 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: dispose of asbestos, it's not like it's disappearing. The whole 723 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: point of this stuff was like mike plastics and microplastics 724 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: or whatever, it doesn't really decay, it doesn't biodegrade, So 725 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: they really just have to like seal it in containers 726 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: sort of like nuclear waste, and then put it in 727 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: an asbestos disposal site um which essentially, I guess at 728 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: that point becomes a super fund site or it's like 729 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: a toxic hazardous waste disposal thing like yuck a mountain 730 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: or something, you know, mm hmmm. So make no mistake. 731 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: This is a genuine, multi generational conspiracy of the most 732 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: common and disappointing sort. There's nothing occult going on here. 733 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: There's no weird spiritual thing. It's just people who had 734 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: money and wanted more money and didn't care about who 735 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: died as a result. This is the quintessential like conspiracy. 736 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: Like that, there's the outcomes razor of conspiracies. We don't 737 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: need there to be some spooky ulterior motive, you know, 738 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: it just makes sense. Oh there's a thing that people 739 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: want to buy that we can sell for a long time. 740 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: Oh it kills them a little bit. It's fine, they 741 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: won't figure that out for a while. Let's just keep 742 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: draining them of their cash for as long as possible. 743 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: And then when we you know, when the public outcry 744 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: becomes like large enough, will pivot and then be like oops, sorry, 745 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: and then We're fine, We're We're as surprised as you are. 746 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 1: And this, by the way, this is not ancient history. 747 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,720 Speaker 1: As we have mentioned before. While there are no active 748 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,320 Speaker 1: Asbestis minds here in the US where we record this show, 749 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 1: there are plenty of his best dis minds around the 750 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: world now, especially as we foreshadowed in Russia. No, no, 751 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: you and Matt and I watched that Vice documentary who 752 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,760 Speaker 1: mentioned several times, Um, you can also see some pretty 753 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: harrowing studies about what's going on there. But asbestos manufacturing, 754 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: open pit mining of asbestos is alive and well with 755 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: our with our neighbors in Russia. Well, I mean I 756 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: mentioned that, like they are so proud of it. Like again, 757 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: there's a term I learned in that Vice documentary. It's 758 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: called a mono town, which we have these in the 759 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: United States as well. Like I mean, when the housing 760 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: market collapsed, a lot of places in the Midwest and 761 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: even here in the South that exclusively existed to do 762 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: say carpet manufacturing or like certain things that were specifically 763 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: for you know, housing or like construction, they just absolutely 764 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: they're they're unemployment rates were you know near um and 765 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: in Russia it is the same, but it's not even regulated. 766 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: I mean, none of this stuff is regulated because it's 767 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,320 Speaker 1: all the behest of putin. They really don't care about 768 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: human rights or like you know, um, public health exactly 769 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: in the same way. I mean, maybe there's like a 770 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 1: calculus they do to make sure that like their whole 771 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: population doesn't die out. It reminds me a lot of 772 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: what happened with Chernobyl, where I mean there was this 773 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: absolute public health catastrophe that took place, but they didn't 774 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: announce it for a long time, a very long time. 775 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: The amount of time that led to a huge amount 776 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: of people getting exposed to radioactive fallout. And if you've 777 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: seen the Chernobyl you know, mini series on HBO or 778 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: read much about it, you understand that it becomes this 779 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: almost like kind of mentality where it's like, we don't 780 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: make mistakes, so if something went wrong, it it didn't 781 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,399 Speaker 1: really go wrong, you know what I mean, right right, 782 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: like it would be uh you know. There there's a 783 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: really good look at this in when we see Stalin 784 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: era stories where um, oh gosh. I recently watched the 785 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: film that was kind of a critical bomb, but it 786 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: had Tom Hardy and Gary Oldman in it, and it's 787 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 1: about attempting to find a serial killer in the USSR. 788 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: And the whole problem is that Stalin has decreed murder 789 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: as a capitalist crime, so they can't they're not allowed 790 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: to investigate homicides because because they don't happen to this 791 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,439 Speaker 1: exactly exactly, and this is very, very dangerous. Yeah, and 792 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: we we know that people have been, uh, people have 793 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: been trying to get as best as out to get 794 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: the message out, and industries have been also in their defense. 795 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,919 Speaker 1: They have been working to limit his best disuse and 796 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: you know, as best as removal. As you said, as 797 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: an industry, it's all its own. But I found this 798 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,239 Speaker 1: really interesting quote from a guy named Jacque McCullough, and 799 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: he said the following. The industry survival has been largely 800 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: due to its success and keeping alive the fiction that 801 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: asbestos can be used safely. Arguably, it's most potent weapons 802 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: have been the suppression of evidence about the hazards of 803 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,800 Speaker 1: asbestos and even the corruption of science aimed to promote 804 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,439 Speaker 1: doubt about the mineral's toxicity. This interview is not from 805 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,280 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, Matt Noll. This interview is from two 806 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 1: thousand and six. The problem is real, The problem is huge. 807 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 1: It is still here. And at this point, you know, 808 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 1: we said this episode was going to be a bummer. 809 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,320 Speaker 1: Here's why. First, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people 810 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: have died, more will die this year and the year 811 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: after that. But secondly, there's not really a clear, easy solution. 812 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: There's not a way to undo the consequences of this conspiracy. Um. 813 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: You know, no, I would even say at this point 814 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: we passed the torch to our fellow conspiracy realists. We 815 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 1: want to hear what you think. I would not be 816 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 1: surprised if we have friends in the audience today who 817 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 1: themselves work in some branch of the abestis removal industry. Right, 818 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: what do you think? Yeah, I don't know anybody personally, 819 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: but um, it absolutely is a thing that continues to 820 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: be one of those dirty jobs they talk about. But 821 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: this is probably not one that they really have done 822 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 1: an episode on, um because it is so heavy. Uh, 823 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,640 Speaker 1: And it is an example of like, oh no one 824 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: else will do this job, Well I'll do it. It 825 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: probably pays a decent hourly wage, but um, at what costs? 826 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,440 Speaker 1: At least here? I mean when when in that documentary 827 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: on Vice when they're in the town of Asbest. Um 828 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 1: they talk to people that work at the minds and 829 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,239 Speaker 1: they don't wear any protective gear. They borderline don't even 830 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 1: acknowledge the dangers of the stuff. Um. And then there's 831 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: a few scientists that they interviewed, you know, from Russia 832 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: who are like the most telling one was there's a 833 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: scientist um who is actually contracted by the World Health 834 00:49:55,680 --> 00:50:00,680 Speaker 1: Organization to do research on asbestos um acts in the 835 00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,839 Speaker 1: town of asbest And the vice journalists point blank just said, 836 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: so there's people in this town that live near an 837 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 1: open pit mine, and open asbestos pit mine is asbestos 838 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,240 Speaker 1: dangerous And this like super cool, calculated like company man 839 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: Russian scientists says, well, life is dangerous. I mean that's 840 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: about as dismissive as you can get. Yeah, it's definitely 841 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: an answer to a different question. Russia is by far 842 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: the world's largest producer of asbestos today. Uh In like 843 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: any way you look at it, the second place would 844 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,280 Speaker 1: be Kazakhstan. Uh they make Russia makes seven hundred ninety 845 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: thousand metric tons. Kazakhstan makes two hundred and ten thousand 846 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 1: metric tons. At least that's what they did last year, 847 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,799 Speaker 1: and the numbers don't seem set to uh to go 848 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: down anytime soon because industry still use this stuff. So 849 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: at this point, folks, we've laid out the case. We 850 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. What is to be done, 851 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,920 Speaker 1: what should be done? What it's your take? And then 852 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: are there stories of other substances like asbestos that have 853 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:09,319 Speaker 1: been the subject of multigenerational conspiracies, corruption and cover ups. 854 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 1: Let us know. We try to be easy to find online. 855 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: Oh the Internet, We're on it. You can find us 856 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,759 Speaker 1: on Twitter, you can find us on Facebook. You can 857 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,840 Speaker 1: find us on YouTube, most importantly under the handle conspiracy Stuff. 858 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 1: Check out the YouTube channel we do pulls of every 859 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: one of these episodes that we do. UM usually a 860 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 1: cool little ten minute clip and then if you don't 861 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,839 Speaker 1: want to listen to the whole episode, check that out, 862 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: but usually it'll make you want to listen to the 863 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: whole episode. UM. You can also find us on Instagram, 864 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: where we are the handle at Conspiracy Stuff Show. You 865 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,399 Speaker 1: can also find us as individual people. I am at 866 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,919 Speaker 1: how now Noel Brown on Instagram how about you, Bud. 867 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,320 Speaker 1: You can you can get a look backstage at the 868 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: research and doing various misadventures at Ben Bullen hsw on Twitter, 869 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,200 Speaker 1: at Ben Bulling on Instagram. Bo w l I n 870 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,360 Speaker 1: uh good pal Matt has become a conscientious objector to 871 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:08,439 Speaker 1: social media. Fully support him. I fully support him in this. Yeah, 872 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 1: so out of respect for him, uh, we'll we'll leave 873 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,800 Speaker 1: it to him to uh maybe share his social media 874 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,880 Speaker 1: at a later date. For now. If you don't particularly 875 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: sip the social meats, never fear, there's another way you 876 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: can contact us. We have a phone number. It is 877 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 1: one eight three three s T d W y t K. 878 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 1: Leave a message of the sound of Ben's dulcet tone 879 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: three minutes of the time. You will have to tell 880 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:32,839 Speaker 1: your tale, let us know what to call you, give 881 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: yourself a cool nickname, or tell us not to call 882 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,359 Speaker 1: you anything, and to anonymize you completely. Will absolutely do that, 883 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,040 Speaker 1: and you might hear yourself on one of our weekly 884 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: Listener Male episodes. And if that is not your bag, 885 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,760 Speaker 1: you can reach out to us the good old fashioned 886 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: way with an email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio 887 00:52:49,719 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: dot com m h H. Stuff they Don't Want You 888 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,840 Speaker 1: to Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For 889 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,879 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the i heart radio, app, 890 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.