1 00:00:01,340 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson. 3 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:18,140 Speaker 1: And I'm Holly Frey. We talked about a couple of 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: beer riots this week on the show. Part of me 5 00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:28,100 Speaker 1: wants to file it under people rioting over silly things, 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: but it was not actually all that silly. There were 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,170 Speaker 1: a lot of real issues going on underlying something that 8 00:00:35,310 --> 00:00:40,290 Speaker 1: can sound a little silly at the headline level, sort of. 9 00:00:41,270 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: There was a hilarious thing. I found it to be 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,700 Speaker 1: hilarious anyway. in the thing that Ingalls wrote in that 11 00:00:50,810 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: Chartist newspaper about this uprising. And the quote wasn't really 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,140 Speaker 1: strictly related, so I did not put it in the episode. 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,980 Speaker 1: But it was just a little aside, a side comment 14 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: in his description of these riots. And he wrote, quote, 15 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: From all of this, however, it appears that the poet king, Ludwig, 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,060 Speaker 1: king of Bavaria, is the author of three volumes of 17 00:01:14,459 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: unreadable poems, of a traveler's guide to one of his 18 00:01:18,260 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: public buildings, etc., etc., has been in a very awkward 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: position during these outbreaks. And I just loved the kind of, 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,530 Speaker 1: let's take an opportunity to say that Ludwig is not 21 00:01:30,569 --> 00:01:34,610 Speaker 1: a very good poet. Shade him from the way. Yes, 22 00:01:34,709 --> 00:01:37,339 Speaker 1: have some shade in the middle of... This thing that 23 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,260 Speaker 1: was about a popular uprising connected to the price of beer. 24 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: What else do I have to say about beer riots? 25 00:01:44,470 --> 00:01:47,390 Speaker 1: I have a question. You do have a question. What 26 00:01:47,450 --> 00:01:49,550 Speaker 1: is it? I do. This is a nerdy question. We're 27 00:01:49,570 --> 00:01:52,790 Speaker 1: going to get in the weeds a little. Yeah. In 28 00:01:52,850 --> 00:01:56,710 Speaker 1: your research, I know you had noted that the brewers 29 00:01:56,750 --> 00:02:01,500 Speaker 1: that were operating in Chicago tended to make more English 30 00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: ale-style beers. Yes. versus the German lager-style beers. Yeah. Did 31 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: you come across anything... Because we had also mentioned earlier 32 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:16,910 Speaker 1: on that, like, the figuring out of the different costs 33 00:02:16,950 --> 00:02:21,089 Speaker 1: and effects of fermentation was not fully done yet. Did 34 00:02:21,150 --> 00:02:25,020 Speaker 1: you find anything... that indicated that they understood that was 35 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:26,700 Speaker 1: what was going on. Because that's what makes the difference 36 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,340 Speaker 1: between an ale and a lager, right? Right. The yeast 37 00:02:30,419 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: that ferments in an ale ferments at the top of 38 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,669 Speaker 1: the stuff at a slightly warmer temperature versus a lager 39 00:02:38,730 --> 00:02:41,050 Speaker 1: where it tends to ferment at the bottom and it's 40 00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:45,250 Speaker 1: usually kept a little colder in the fermentation process. Right, right. Look, 41 00:02:45,270 --> 00:02:49,889 Speaker 1: I remembered something from bartending school. Yeah. It did not 42 00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:51,930 Speaker 1: even occur to me that that was a thing that 43 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:54,250 Speaker 1: you would remember from bartending school. I don't know why 44 00:02:54,330 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: it did this. So my understanding is that it was 45 00:02:58,380 --> 00:03:02,300 Speaker 1: really across the United States that the people who were 46 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:07,260 Speaker 1: brewing beer prior to the influx of immigrants from Germany 47 00:03:07,380 --> 00:03:11,179 Speaker 1: were more likely to be brewing an ale. So not 48 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,780 Speaker 1: just in Chicago, but everywhere. Right. Just because that's what 49 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: came with most colonists, I imagine. Yeah, that's what came 50 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: with most of the colonists. And then after a lot 51 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:23,060 Speaker 1: more people started coming from Germany and bringing this lager 52 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,340 Speaker 1: beer style, it shifted to be a lot more lager-focused. 53 00:03:29,060 --> 00:03:33,660 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the most mass-produced beer in 54 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: the U.S. are more likely to be closer to a 55 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:43,850 Speaker 1: lager than an ale. And they did understand... These were 56 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:48,060 Speaker 1: not brewed the same way. They definitely understood the differences 57 00:03:48,130 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: in temperature, which made it a little more difficult to 58 00:03:52,620 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: brew a lager because of the cooler temperature that was necessary. 59 00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Not all of the United States for all of the 60 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: year is conducive to that. As to whether they really 61 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:11,030 Speaker 1: understood the specifics of the yeast part at that point, 62 00:04:11,090 --> 00:04:14,930 Speaker 1: like in 1855, I... Not sure. I did not look 63 00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:17,950 Speaker 1: into that. Because usually it's associated with the work of 64 00:04:17,990 --> 00:04:20,450 Speaker 1: Pasteur where that really all got figured out. Right. Which 65 00:04:20,510 --> 00:04:25,010 Speaker 1: is happening around that time. Yeah. So I just didn't 66 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:27,450 Speaker 1: know if it was just a matter of they were 67 00:04:27,490 --> 00:04:32,020 Speaker 1: still propagating the same yeast and using it in their 68 00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: thing versus the yeast that maybe traveled over with German 69 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: brewers and them just using the same thing. Yeah, I 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,740 Speaker 1: didn't get into that rabbit hole. I would have gotten 71 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,020 Speaker 1: down that and then been like, oh, Lord, it's two 72 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,229 Speaker 1: in the morning and I'm not done yet. Right. Well, 73 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:51,250 Speaker 1: and it was really specifically because I was finishing this 74 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:54,890 Speaker 1: leading up to the Labor Day holiday weekend and I 75 00:04:54,950 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: had plans. So I needed to put limits on the 76 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: rabbit hole possibility in order to get the episode done 77 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,670 Speaker 1: so that I could do my plans properly. because otherwise 78 00:05:08,730 --> 00:05:11,370 Speaker 1: I would have probably wound up spending a bunch of 79 00:05:11,450 --> 00:05:18,180 Speaker 1: time looking at the details of how the beers were brewed. Like, 80 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: I have an impression that the summer beer and the 81 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,730 Speaker 1: winter beer that were being brewed in Bavaria were both being... 82 00:05:28,550 --> 00:05:32,930 Speaker 1: brewed with barley because that was what was required. But 83 00:05:33,410 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: the end result in the summertime was one that was 84 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,380 Speaker 1: lighter and more thirst quenching. And the one that was 85 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,980 Speaker 1: in the winter was a little darker and a little 86 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: more warming. But I resisted the urge to go find 87 00:05:51,050 --> 00:05:54,530 Speaker 1: out if that was 100% correct and also how to 88 00:05:54,589 --> 00:06:01,220 Speaker 1: explain why the beer yielding a slightly different product in 89 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,850 Speaker 1: the summer or the winter. I do know brewers who 90 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:08,170 Speaker 1: I could have asked, but I also was like, yeah. 91 00:06:08,610 --> 00:06:12,830 Speaker 1: But I was also just like, I gotta get this 92 00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: finished and be ready to have my three-day weekend of plans. 93 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,580 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah. Now I'm kind of curious. We talked 94 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: to a brewer on the show about beer history many 95 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,380 Speaker 1: years ago, and I thought about going and re-listening to 96 00:06:28,420 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: that episode, and then I did not do it. Because again, 97 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,900 Speaker 1: finite amounts of time. Yeah, I literally just meant specifically, 98 00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:39,230 Speaker 1: I don't, maybe that beer history expert would know, but 99 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:42,390 Speaker 1: just specifically, like, were people being cognizant of it and 100 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:45,710 Speaker 1: being like, oh, they're using something different or just they 101 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:49,010 Speaker 1: have a different method than us versus recognizing that there 102 00:06:49,050 --> 00:06:55,970 Speaker 1: was yeast difference. Right. There were some evolutions in beer 103 00:06:56,010 --> 00:06:59,910 Speaker 1: making in Germany in the mid-19th century that were a 104 00:07:00,290 --> 00:07:02,770 Speaker 1: big deal. Oh, yeah. I literally am talking about what 105 00:07:02,810 --> 00:07:07,210 Speaker 1: we were talking about in the U.S., though. Like, whether 106 00:07:07,250 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: they were cognizant of the fact that their style of 107 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: making it was using a different yeast or not, or 108 00:07:12,460 --> 00:07:14,540 Speaker 1: if they were just like, this is how we've always 109 00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: made it. We make it this way. Germans do some 110 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,860 Speaker 1: other thing. Like, I just didn't know. Mystery to me 111 00:07:18,900 --> 00:07:21,580 Speaker 1: at this point. Yeah. Yeah. And that might be hard 112 00:07:21,620 --> 00:07:23,780 Speaker 1: to answer, actually. I don't know if people would have 113 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: been recording that. Thus, my random question. We may get 114 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,820 Speaker 1: an email from a listener who knows and can fill 115 00:07:30,860 --> 00:07:34,660 Speaker 1: us in on all the detail. Maybe. Or an email saying, Tracy, 116 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:40,870 Speaker 1: you could have asked me. But yeah, as we are 117 00:07:40,930 --> 00:07:44,790 Speaker 1: recording this, we are just a few weeks away from 118 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:50,820 Speaker 1: making our trip to Munich. And... I'm sort of 50-50 119 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: leading up to trips, whether I go and try to 120 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: find something to talk about on the show ahead of 121 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,700 Speaker 1: the trip to kind of whet my appetite for the 122 00:07:59,750 --> 00:08:03,490 Speaker 1: trip and also, you know, just find something interesting to 123 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,130 Speaker 1: talk about about this place that we're going to visit. 124 00:08:05,690 --> 00:08:09,090 Speaker 1: And I was looking for something that seemed kind of fun, 125 00:08:09,190 --> 00:08:13,570 Speaker 1: which in a way this episode is because it is 126 00:08:13,610 --> 00:08:18,070 Speaker 1: about And as we've already discussed recently, I do like 127 00:08:18,110 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: the episodes about smashing things. But, of course, as we 128 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: already said, real circumstances that we're feeding into all of 129 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: this that were serious issues to people, not just, oh, 130 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:35,179 Speaker 1: the beer's more expensive and I'm mad. It's really rarely 131 00:08:35,350 --> 00:08:48,630 Speaker 1: ever that simple. I know. I know. We talked about 132 00:08:48,670 --> 00:08:52,510 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Fry this week. We did. My little 18th century 133 00:08:52,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: emo girl. Yeah. 18th and 19th. There's an interesting aspect 134 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: of her life. We do have a lot of her diaries. 135 00:09:06,410 --> 00:09:08,410 Speaker 1: Which is interesting because I don't know how much she 136 00:09:08,429 --> 00:09:10,230 Speaker 1: would like that we're reading them, but we'll get to 137 00:09:10,250 --> 00:09:13,609 Speaker 1: that in a minute. But She actually burned a lot 138 00:09:13,630 --> 00:09:15,990 Speaker 1: of her diaries from when she was a younger teen. 139 00:09:16,110 --> 00:09:19,290 Speaker 1: So she went through the phase many of us go 140 00:09:19,309 --> 00:09:21,250 Speaker 1: through where we go, oh, dear me, this should not 141 00:09:21,290 --> 00:09:24,650 Speaker 1: be allowed to survive on Earth. So there is some gap, 142 00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:27,809 Speaker 1: particularly like from the time she's like 12 to 16 143 00:09:27,809 --> 00:09:31,230 Speaker 1: or 17. But I also thought it was interesting because 144 00:09:31,309 --> 00:09:35,110 Speaker 1: her daughters put together a biography of her based on 145 00:09:35,150 --> 00:09:38,350 Speaker 1: her diaries that came out a couple of decades, I think, 146 00:09:38,410 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: after she passed, maybe not that long. But a while 147 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,699 Speaker 1: after she passed. But then that biography that we referenced 148 00:09:45,740 --> 00:09:50,849 Speaker 1: from 1981 by June Rose notes, like she basically says 149 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:56,030 Speaker 1: in the preface, like, I went and read through all 150 00:09:56,070 --> 00:09:59,050 Speaker 1: of these diaries and I realized pretty quickly her daughters 151 00:09:59,090 --> 00:10:03,030 Speaker 1: had really... kind of shined things up and omitted anything 152 00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: that might make her look less than ideal like a 153 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: lot of the confusion and uncertainty particularly about marrying their 154 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,580 Speaker 1: father and like her wishy-washiness and her constant anxiety about 155 00:10:15,620 --> 00:10:19,770 Speaker 1: herself It's kind of like either omitted or it's really 156 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:23,829 Speaker 1: like reworked to sound much more gentle and less like 157 00:10:23,850 --> 00:10:27,770 Speaker 1: their mom might be dealing with, you know, more serious 158 00:10:27,850 --> 00:10:32,750 Speaker 1: issues of anxiety. Another thing that's interesting is there. I 159 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: love that June Rose biography because there's a lot of. 160 00:10:36,330 --> 00:10:40,190 Speaker 1: hinting around. June Rose was an English historian, and she 161 00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:44,739 Speaker 1: writes the way a well-educated English woman would in the 1980s, 162 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,980 Speaker 1: which is that there's a lot of walking around some ideas, 163 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: kind of, like, hinting at them. And then kind of 164 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: even addressing them, but in a very delicate way. One 165 00:10:54,260 --> 00:10:58,219 Speaker 1: of them being Thomas Savory. Because, of course, everybody was like, 166 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,050 Speaker 1: she got a crush on that man. And, like, she's 167 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:06,890 Speaker 1: not having religion. She's having a crush. And... Her, Betsy, 168 00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:09,630 Speaker 1: being very adamant that was not the case. But of course, 169 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,740 Speaker 1: if you are 17 and you have a crush on 170 00:11:12,780 --> 00:11:16,819 Speaker 1: an adult man, and everybody in your very teasing family 171 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,819 Speaker 1: teases you about it, you're going to say, no, I 172 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: do not, so I don't know. But June Rose very 173 00:11:23,460 --> 00:11:26,620 Speaker 1: carefully talks through all of this. The other thing that 174 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 1: is hilarious is the newlywed phase. Oh, yeah. Because she 175 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:39,030 Speaker 1: found living with a man irritating. He hums too much. 176 00:11:39,150 --> 00:11:42,530 Speaker 1: He just makes too much noise. It's essentially I don't 177 00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:45,550 Speaker 1: like how he loads the dishwasher. But like in the 178 00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: early 1820s. She's very critical of her husband. But also 179 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:56,740 Speaker 1: she did not have a great relationship with her in-laws. 180 00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:59,100 Speaker 1: We talked about how they kind of thought she was 181 00:11:59,140 --> 00:12:03,990 Speaker 1: a little too highfalutin. Yeah. But like apparently, I mean, 182 00:12:05,170 --> 00:12:08,090 Speaker 1: I found myself chuckling so frequently because it's all the 183 00:12:08,110 --> 00:12:11,450 Speaker 1: same stuff that people deal with in modern times if 184 00:12:11,490 --> 00:12:15,189 Speaker 1: they have any friction with their beloved's family once they 185 00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:19,580 Speaker 1: get married. Like apparently their first Christmas altogether, again, they're 186 00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: living at like the family house, like the house that 187 00:12:22,220 --> 00:12:27,590 Speaker 1: everyone would go to for Christmas anyway. So... Elizabeth had 188 00:12:27,690 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: set up, you know, a whole family feast. She had 189 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,479 Speaker 1: had a turkey brought in from Norwich that she had 190 00:12:32,540 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: had prepared, and it was apparently, you know, the same 191 00:12:36,179 --> 00:12:38,179 Speaker 1: thing she would have grown up with all the time. 192 00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:44,420 Speaker 1: And then her mother-in-law showed up with a turkey. Oh, no. Oh, no. And... 193 00:12:46,750 --> 00:12:50,650 Speaker 1: apparently got very angry that Elizabeth was not willing to 194 00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:53,710 Speaker 1: serve that instead of the turkey that she had had prepared. 195 00:12:53,730 --> 00:12:56,450 Speaker 1: I don't know how hands-on she was with it because 196 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:59,330 Speaker 1: they did have help at the house, but there were 197 00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:03,070 Speaker 1: a lot of instances like that. That even like when 198 00:13:03,130 --> 00:13:07,090 Speaker 1: her mother-in-law was quite ill at the end, which also 199 00:13:07,170 --> 00:13:11,050 Speaker 1: was a matter of disagreement because the Frys believed in 200 00:13:12,970 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: animal magnetism and not medicine. And so it was one 201 00:13:19,179 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: of those interesting things where it's almost like the trope 202 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: is reversed because even though Elizabeth grew up in what 203 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,370 Speaker 1: would have been considered more like the country and country life, 204 00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:32,910 Speaker 1: she had much more modern views of a lot of 205 00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:37,449 Speaker 1: things than her husband's family. And so while she's like, 206 00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:42,610 Speaker 1: let's get a doctor, they're like, no, we're We're going 207 00:13:42,620 --> 00:13:45,809 Speaker 1: to hypnotize her instead. Oh, dear. And she'd be like, 208 00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:49,350 Speaker 1: let's get a doctor. And she got really frustrated. And 209 00:13:49,429 --> 00:13:52,210 Speaker 1: even though she and her mother-in-law didn't really like each other, 210 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:55,470 Speaker 1: she also got her feelings hurt that her mother-in-law didn't 211 00:13:55,530 --> 00:13:57,089 Speaker 1: want her to be the one that took care of 212 00:13:57,150 --> 00:13:59,980 Speaker 1: her in her final days. There's just, there's so much 213 00:14:00,250 --> 00:14:03,460 Speaker 1: good family drama playing out. I kind of crack up. 214 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: There is also a thing that comes up in those 215 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: early days of her Really kind of like spreading the 216 00:14:09,980 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: word and making it known. Like, we are here to 217 00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:14,950 Speaker 1: help you. My life's purpose is to help people. Someone 218 00:14:14,990 --> 00:14:16,710 Speaker 1: wants to come to my house and ask for something, 219 00:14:16,750 --> 00:14:19,530 Speaker 1: I will do everything I can to make sure they 220 00:14:19,550 --> 00:14:23,150 Speaker 1: get what they need. But she definitely had ideas about 221 00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:25,950 Speaker 1: who was poor enough for her to help. Oh, sure. Like, 222 00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:29,980 Speaker 1: I guess somebody had written to her and said, like, 223 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,820 Speaker 1: I don't remember what the circumstances were, but like, our 224 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:35,500 Speaker 1: family has fallen into need and we really could use 225 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,230 Speaker 1: some help. But like, would you come out to our 226 00:14:38,270 --> 00:14:40,950 Speaker 1: home and and meet with us about it? And I 227 00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:43,150 Speaker 1: guess she went out to their home and it was 228 00:14:43,290 --> 00:14:45,790 Speaker 1: nicer than she expected. And they wanted a little more 229 00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:48,810 Speaker 1: money than she was anticipating. And she just kind of 230 00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:50,630 Speaker 1: was like, they don't really need me the way. And 231 00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: also they live so far away. We don't want to 232 00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: start this relationship. It's like, oh, they weren't poor enough 233 00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: for you. I see. And who knows? Maybe they were weasels. 234 00:14:57,940 --> 00:15:10,580 Speaker 1: I don't know. Here's the thing that appealed to me deeply. 235 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: There was a moment where she was talking about Joseph 236 00:15:13,380 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: Fry's family criticizing something that she did. And she wrote 237 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,420 Speaker 1: in her journal, quote, I cannot bear to be reproved 238 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,310 Speaker 1: partly owing to not being used to it. And I 239 00:15:26,670 --> 00:15:28,590 Speaker 1: feel you, and also this is a thing that I 240 00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: have been ruminating a lot over lately, not necessarily in 241 00:15:31,630 --> 00:15:34,940 Speaker 1: terms of being criticized, but, you know, I've had a 242 00:15:34,940 --> 00:15:36,820 Speaker 1: little bit of a weird stretch as of late and 243 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,500 Speaker 1: I've been very pity party about it. And I had 244 00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:41,500 Speaker 1: this moment when I was driving to the airport recently 245 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: where I was like, you know why I am so, 246 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:47,980 Speaker 1: you know, kneecapped by a handful of things that are 247 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,980 Speaker 1: going on that are not as bad as what other 248 00:15:50,020 --> 00:15:52,490 Speaker 1: people often have to go through. I was like, I 249 00:15:52,930 --> 00:15:55,970 Speaker 1: am so ridiculously lucky in so many ways that I 250 00:15:56,330 --> 00:15:59,990 Speaker 1: have no practice at like being this put out all 251 00:16:00,090 --> 00:16:02,310 Speaker 1: at once. And so I don't have the skills and 252 00:16:02,350 --> 00:16:04,370 Speaker 1: that's why I'm a whiny baby and I need to 253 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:06,270 Speaker 1: be better about it and like think about it that 254 00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:09,500 Speaker 1: way and reframe it. And so reading her journals where 255 00:16:09,530 --> 00:16:13,010 Speaker 1: it's always like, she's very stressed out, but a lot 256 00:16:13,050 --> 00:16:16,620 Speaker 1: of it is stress that she's bringing on herself. I'm like, girl, 257 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: I would love to chat with you. I think we 258 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:22,430 Speaker 1: could figure some of this out together. Yeah. Like, there 259 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:27,570 Speaker 1: is even an entry where she gets really nervous about 260 00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:30,930 Speaker 1: feeling any joy that is not spiritual. Oh, okay. Like, 261 00:16:30,980 --> 00:16:33,220 Speaker 1: she talks about how much she loves to sing, but 262 00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: that singing makes her feel too much ecstasy, and it's 263 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:43,380 Speaker 1: not okay, and it creates wild passions. And I'm like, that's... Yes, 264 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,180 Speaker 1: because that's what art does. Yeah. But she's not cool 265 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,270 Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, I... I have a little bit of 266 00:16:50,530 --> 00:16:53,820 Speaker 1: affinity for her because I was an anxious child who cried. 267 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:57,100 Speaker 1: Like when I was in kindergarten, I cried enough that 268 00:16:57,180 --> 00:17:00,220 Speaker 1: the kindergarten teacher started sending me to the guidance counselor. 269 00:17:00,820 --> 00:17:03,050 Speaker 1: And my dad's mom was the same way. Like when 270 00:17:03,090 --> 00:17:06,109 Speaker 1: somebody came to look after, when she was a little girl, 271 00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:09,460 Speaker 1: somebody came to look after her and her siblings. her 272 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,300 Speaker 1: parents would say, like, give her anything she wants. Just 273 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: do not let her get started crying. And so, like, 274 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,620 Speaker 1: when I was reading this about her being a very 275 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:22,340 Speaker 1: anxious child and crying, and then people would tease her, 276 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:25,980 Speaker 1: and that made it worse, I was like, I feel this. 277 00:17:26,220 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: I think most of us can relate to that, at 278 00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: least in moments. Yeah, and then, as her life progressed, like, 279 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,590 Speaker 1: I continued to be an anxious person as a teen 280 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:39,590 Speaker 1: and into my 20s and 30s. And it was really 281 00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:48,260 Speaker 1: doing some very specific coaching on some coping skills and 282 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,699 Speaker 1: some mental health skills and some strategies in my 40s 283 00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: that a lot of the things that were causing me 284 00:17:55,859 --> 00:18:00,210 Speaker 1: so much anxiety, I was able to get some more 285 00:18:00,270 --> 00:18:03,990 Speaker 1: control over. Yeah. And so when I got into the 286 00:18:04,030 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: parts of her later life where I was like, oh, man, 287 00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: I just, I feel, now I sort of feel like 288 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: I wish she would have had different resources available to 289 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: you to maybe move away from some of these things 290 00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: where it does seem like you are bringing it onto yourself. 291 00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: Because I was definitely bringing a lot of things onto myself. Oh, yeah, same. 292 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,670 Speaker 1: I mean, I still am always like, why are you so... 293 00:18:28,430 --> 00:18:31,540 Speaker 1: anxiety ridden about, you know, this thing that you cannot 294 00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: control it. You just got to do it. The only 295 00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:35,740 Speaker 1: way out is through. It's like I live that weird 296 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,780 Speaker 1: parallel of being anxious and afraid of everything and also 297 00:18:38,820 --> 00:18:41,500 Speaker 1: just being brazen as heck about it. And I don't 298 00:18:41,540 --> 00:18:45,150 Speaker 1: know how that worked out, but that's. Yeah. I mean, 299 00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:47,070 Speaker 1: if we if we want to be astrological, I am 300 00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:49,369 Speaker 1: a Gemini, so it does make some sense. But yeah, 301 00:18:49,390 --> 00:18:52,550 Speaker 1: I just I want to be like, oh, oh, Betsy. Yeah. Yeah. 302 00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: there are there are ways which i think is really 303 00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:59,100 Speaker 1: why helping people made her feel better because it it 304 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: just took her out of that cycle that you get 305 00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:04,660 Speaker 1: in when you're in an anxious or depressive period where 306 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:06,990 Speaker 1: it's like everything is just feeding into itself and you're 307 00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:08,770 Speaker 1: spiraling and then she'd be like oh i have to 308 00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:11,110 Speaker 1: make sure this person gets food today and it just 309 00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:13,689 Speaker 1: broke that cycle a little bit i think well and 310 00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:16,090 Speaker 1: she also obviously didn't have access to the kinds of 311 00:19:16,609 --> 00:19:20,770 Speaker 1: medical treatments and medications that exist today which are life-changing 312 00:19:20,830 --> 00:19:24,330 Speaker 1: for a lot of people yeah for sure Her marriage 313 00:19:24,410 --> 00:19:27,169 Speaker 1: is fascinating to me, as marriages often are when they 314 00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:30,050 Speaker 1: come up on the show, especially because she was so 315 00:19:30,090 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: wishy-washy about it. It was very like, I don't love him. 316 00:19:33,380 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: I don't know. He seems like a good guy, but 317 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,340 Speaker 1: I don't know. But they were together and they seemed 318 00:19:38,380 --> 00:19:41,179 Speaker 1: to have a very dear marriage. She writes about him 319 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:44,889 Speaker 1: very lovingly. He wrote about her very lovingly. But one 320 00:19:44,930 --> 00:19:48,630 Speaker 1: thing that I think is interesting is that, you know, 321 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:51,780 Speaker 1: she journaled a lot as a teenager and a young woman. 322 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,730 Speaker 1: And like would talk about how like, oh, finally everyone 323 00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:58,790 Speaker 1: left the house. So it's just me and my journal 324 00:19:58,850 --> 00:20:01,169 Speaker 1: and I'm going to write it all out. I'm like, again, 325 00:20:01,190 --> 00:20:05,060 Speaker 1: I see you emo kid. But then when she got older, 326 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,940 Speaker 1: she kind of went through it again. Okay. Where I 327 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,390 Speaker 1: think it was probably a way that she was coping 328 00:20:12,490 --> 00:20:16,250 Speaker 1: with having a lot of attention on her and eyes 329 00:20:16,350 --> 00:20:20,150 Speaker 1: on her in the public sphere. But she was adamant 330 00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: that her husband and her kids could not read her writing. Mm-hmm. 331 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,270 Speaker 1: And so, and I have not done a, you know, 332 00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:31,710 Speaker 1: I obviously have not gone to England to find her 333 00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:34,369 Speaker 1: original journals and read them all. So I don't know 334 00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:36,670 Speaker 1: if part of that is like, because I'm going to 335 00:20:36,730 --> 00:20:38,369 Speaker 1: trash talk him a little bit as part of my 336 00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: personal therapy, or if she just felt that self-conscious about it. 337 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: But that's what made me wonder, like, would she have 338 00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: been very happy about her kids, like, turning this into 339 00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:55,490 Speaker 1: a whole thing, into a biography? I don't know. Okay, 340 00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:57,790 Speaker 1: there's one last thing I really have to talk about. Okay. 341 00:20:58,450 --> 00:21:02,340 Speaker 1: And this goes again to that June Rose biography because 342 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:09,580 Speaker 1: there are some subtle hints that she self-medicated with alcohol. Okay. 343 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,469 Speaker 1: Because there is a passage that she writes at one 344 00:21:14,530 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: point when she's younger that you know, she's debating over 345 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: giving up alcohol completely as part of living a simpler life, 346 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: but that she can't and she doesn't feel good when 347 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: she's not having a regular draft now and again. And 348 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,900 Speaker 1: I'm like, hmm. And then when she got a little 349 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: bit older, it seemed like she was drinking more beer, 350 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,300 Speaker 1: which is, we're in a theming thing lately with beer 351 00:21:41,340 --> 00:21:44,020 Speaker 1: on the show. But when she got older, she switched 352 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,100 Speaker 1: to brandy. And she used to say that, like, She 353 00:21:47,140 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: would use that as a sort of medicine, which a 354 00:21:49,859 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: lot of people have over the years, to be fair. 355 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,770 Speaker 1: But I could not figure out if June Rose was 356 00:21:54,810 --> 00:21:57,869 Speaker 1: hinting at like, and she might have had a slight 357 00:21:57,930 --> 00:22:01,810 Speaker 1: drinking problem. You know, alcohol has been a very common 358 00:22:01,830 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: part of a lot of cultures and a lot of, 359 00:22:04,150 --> 00:22:07,190 Speaker 1: you know, social rituals for a long time. But it 360 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:10,470 Speaker 1: is interesting that she did talk about, I probably should 361 00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:12,230 Speaker 1: give this up, but I can't. I don't feel good 362 00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:16,340 Speaker 1: when I'm not drinking, which is a very surprising thing. 363 00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:22,250 Speaker 1: So just worthy of consideration. It would certainly shift, you know, 364 00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:28,070 Speaker 1: the way you perceive somebody like this who is very active, 365 00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:31,810 Speaker 1: associated with sort of living a very strict life that, 366 00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, it wouldn't be surprising either because she was, 367 00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: as we just said, living at a time when she 368 00:22:38,540 --> 00:22:43,460 Speaker 1: really could have benefited from modern medicine and particularly in 369 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:46,700 Speaker 1: dealing with issues like anxiety and depression that were clearly 370 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:50,660 Speaker 1: going on and she was kind of doing a version 371 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:53,580 Speaker 1: of it that not not great but just a point 372 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: of interest yeah that i thought i would feel weird 373 00:22:56,619 --> 00:22:58,420 Speaker 1: if i left it out i don't want to trash 374 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: talk her or you know denigrate her in any way 375 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,219 Speaker 1: but i feel like that's one of those things that 376 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,020 Speaker 1: is not going to come up very often but that 377 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,380 Speaker 1: there is evidence that there was some of that happening 378 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,940 Speaker 1: um Worthy of examination. Anyway, that's Elizabeth Frye, who on 379 00:23:13,980 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: the one hand, I'm like, I get you. And on 380 00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:18,220 Speaker 1: the other, I'm like, whew, I bet you were a lot. 381 00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:21,189 Speaker 1: She did help a lot of people and there's no 382 00:23:21,230 --> 00:23:25,730 Speaker 1: way around that. And that is a worthy legacy. If 383 00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:30,130 Speaker 1: you are headed into some time off this weekend, don't 384 00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:32,469 Speaker 1: even worry about your legacy. Just worry about you and 385 00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:34,950 Speaker 1: making you happy right now and taking care of yourself 386 00:23:35,780 --> 00:23:38,939 Speaker 1: and those around you in whatever way also makes you 387 00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:41,869 Speaker 1: feel good. Maybe do something nice. I was having a 388 00:23:41,910 --> 00:23:43,869 Speaker 1: cruddy day the other day and I did a random 389 00:23:43,930 --> 00:23:45,710 Speaker 1: act of kindness and it made me feel a million 390 00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:50,470 Speaker 1: times better. And I always try to tell people in 391 00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:53,220 Speaker 1: those instances, no, I swear this was about me and 392 00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: not you. You can thank me all you want, but 393 00:23:55,460 --> 00:23:59,140 Speaker 1: really it was selfish. I'm trying to fix my brain chemistry. 394 00:23:59,180 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: I promise you that. But if you can do something 395 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,300 Speaker 1: nice for someone else, that is terrific. If you can, 396 00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: you can only be nice to yourself. That is also 397 00:24:06,550 --> 00:24:09,389 Speaker 1: terrific because a better you makes a better world. And 398 00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:11,659 Speaker 1: I just hope that, you know, everybody's being kind to 399 00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:13,340 Speaker 1: each other. If you have to work, if you have 400 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: other obligations, if you're running around, if you are doing 401 00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:18,540 Speaker 1: so much for other people that it's wearing you out, 402 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,420 Speaker 1: I hope that you still get some time to just rest. 403 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: Write in your journal. Write secret things about how your 404 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,630 Speaker 1: husband hums too much. Whatever it is that feels good 405 00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:32,790 Speaker 1: to you. Clearly, Elizabeth Fry was very good at writing 406 00:24:32,830 --> 00:24:36,430 Speaker 1: such things out. Whatever it is that helps you feel better, 407 00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:38,649 Speaker 1: I hope you get at least a couple minutes to 408 00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:41,490 Speaker 1: do it. We will be right back here on Monday 409 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: with a brand new episode. And of course, we will 410 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:52,710 Speaker 1: be back tomorrow with a classic. Stuff You Missed in 411 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:56,429 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 412 00:24:56,490 --> 00:25:00,629 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 413 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.