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Speaker 1: Previously on Queen of the Con.

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Speaker 2: But when I saw the look on some of the vendors' faces,

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Speaker 2: they were disgusted, is what I saw in their face.

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Speaker 1: Michelle Mack tries her hand at the wedding business in

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Speaker 1: Arizona and fails spectacularly. She may have stolen half of

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Speaker 1: my wedding cake. Michelle Mack also tries and fails at

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Speaker 1: a business selling hand painted nail files from the Czech Republic.

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Speaker 3: She's a horrible businesswoman.

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Speaker 1: I could see why you would think that. But what

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Speaker 1: if the Czech Republic nail files and the wedding venue business,

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Speaker 1: what if those were never meant to succeed. Those were

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Speaker 1: just meant to provide her coverboard, because what she was

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Speaker 1: really doing was making millions selling stolen stuff on Amazon.

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Speaker 1: I actually go looking for Michelle Mack outside the San

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Speaker 1: Diego Courthouse because I really want to talk to her,

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Speaker 1: and lo and behold, I get my shot. Hey, Mijaue,

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Speaker 1: my name's Jonathan. I'm with the Queen of the Con podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is Queen of the Con

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Speaker 1: Season six, The California Girls, Episode five. Did you get

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Speaker 1: some new girls?

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Speaker 4: Well, I would like to think that the court system

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Speaker 4: would go ahead and let us know when her prelimbs are.

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Speaker 4: But for me, I have no clue when it is.

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Speaker 1: That's local San Diego reporter Shelley Leggett confessing she, like me,

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Speaker 1: is at the mercy of the San Diego court it

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Speaker 1: system when it comes to finding out the latest on

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Speaker 1: the Michelle Matt case. The San Diego court system is

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Speaker 1: kind of fed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, isn't it it is?

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm here in La you know, two and

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Speaker 1: a half hours three hours north of San Diego. I

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Speaker 1: deal with La courts a lot. I deal with courts

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Speaker 1: all over the country in different states because I work

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Speaker 1: in a lot of different cases, and I've never come

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Speaker 1: across a court system like San Diego.

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Speaker 4: It seems like they have a lot going on and

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Speaker 4: don't know where to start well and where to end.

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Speaker 1: You can't even go to their court website to look

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Speaker 1: up the calendar because the calendar that they show only

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Speaker 1: has five days, so you can only see what's happening

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Speaker 1: in the next five days. And then all the phone

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Speaker 1: numbers I call, literally it's the circuitous call. This person call,

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Speaker 1: that person transfers to here, transfers you. Oh, the phones

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Speaker 1: are closed now it's after hours, but it's not after

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Speaker 1: hours like ten am.

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Speaker 4: And forget trying to look someone up in the court system,

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Speaker 4: the online court system. Their name will never show up.

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Speaker 1: It'll never show up. Like, I've never seen anything like it.

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Speaker 1: It's so inept San Diego, shame on you.

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Speaker 4: You're getting together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not that hard. Other court systems do.

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Speaker 4: It, some small towns. Their court systems are top tier

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Speaker 4: compared to what we're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really annoying me. So literally, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have to drive down to the San Diego Courthouse and

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Speaker 1: go to a clerk to the window and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: when is this case? When's the next hearing? Because my

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Speaker 1: understanding is there's a hearing schedule for the end of

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Speaker 1: this month. I just don't know what that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's yet to be seen.

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Speaker 1: You'll see.

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Speaker 4: There have been plenty of times where we have to

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Speaker 4: just physically go because our assignment desk isn't getting anywhere

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Speaker 4: on the phone. You can't get anywhere online, so you

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Speaker 4: just go there physically. And of course there's a line, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and we're on deadline, so a lot of times we

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Speaker 4: can't just stand in line waiting to ask a question

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Speaker 4: a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: Also, we get.

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Speaker 4: Notified last minute. There have been plenty of cases where

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Speaker 4: there's a case that we need to be in at

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Speaker 4: one point thirty we're finding out at one it's.

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Speaker 1: Like they're hiding the info. Why is that? Maybe it's

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Speaker 1: just in aptitude, or maybe I don't know. Is there

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Speaker 1: something more sinister happening?

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Speaker 5: We don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just small fries like Shelley Leggett in me.

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Speaker 1: Even big time network reporters like Gabrielle von Rouge from

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Speaker 1: CNBC have issues getting information out of the San Diego Courthouse.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, horrible. Even just figuring out what please the

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Speaker 6: defendants made was a nightmare. The information isn't updated online

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Speaker 6: and when I finally got through to a clerk, I

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Speaker 6: think I had to wait on a hold for about

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Speaker 6: an hour to get through to the clerk. They were like,

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Speaker 6: you know, they're going to be a rain today, but

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Speaker 6: the information won't be updated for like at least a week.

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Speaker 6: And I was like, this is nuts.

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Speaker 1: Like I imagine, like me, you deal with a lot

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Speaker 1: of courthouses and I've never seen one this disorganized, this unfriendly.

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Speaker 1: The website not updated, and even the criminal calendar they're

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Speaker 1: only five days out. That's all they show you is

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Speaker 1: the next five days. So I don't know when the

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Speaker 1: next hearing is other than it's the end of this

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Speaker 1: month sometime. Do you know when the next hearing in

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Speaker 1: this case is?

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 6: I mean I have worked with courthouses in nearly every

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Speaker 6: state in this country. This one was one of the

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Speaker 6: most difficult ones.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that too. It's crazy. So I check

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Speaker 1: and recheck the San Diego Court System's website every day

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Speaker 1: for three weeks straight for the latest on the Michelle

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Speaker 1: Mack case, and nothing pops up. I mean, I can

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Speaker 1: see she's been charged, right, I can see which judge

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Speaker 1: the case has been assigned to. I can see she's

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Speaker 1: been out and about free as a bird on one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars bond since February. I can

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Speaker 1: even see the names of her eight other co defendants

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Speaker 1: in this sprawling retail theft ring case. But still I

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Speaker 1: have no idea when she'll be in court next. It's

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Speaker 1: just not there. It's not anywhere. But then suddenly, on

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Speaker 1: the morning of May twenty fifth, the date of Michelle

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Speaker 1: Mack's next pre trial hearing pops up. She's scheduled to

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Speaker 1: be in court in four days. On Wednesday, May twenty ninth,

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Speaker 1: twenty five four at eight point fifteen am. So that morning,

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Speaker 1: I get in my.

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Speaker 5: Car speak an address in the United States.

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Speaker 1: One to one zero zero Union Street, San Diego, California.

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Speaker 1: Would you like to begin navigation? Yes, it is five

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. I am tired, I am up.

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Speaker 1: I am driving to San Diego from Los Angeles. It's

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Speaker 1: a two hour and eleven minute tribe and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of shocking actually how many cars there are on the

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Speaker 1: highway at this hour. It's not bumper to bumper traffic,

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Speaker 1: but the I five south out of Los Angeles is

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Speaker 1: full of cars in every single lane.

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Speaker 5: Job.

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Speaker 1: But that's why seventy eight of Americans I'm happy with

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Speaker 1: their jobs because they don't have a clear vision or

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Speaker 1: they don't have a clear dream. To pass the time.

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Speaker 1: On my long drive, I'm listening to Arnold Schwarzenegger explain

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Speaker 1: the necessity of hard work and vision on the Howard

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Speaker 1: Stern Show. I'm sitting and thinking about rock stars.

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Speaker 4: Imagine the amount of work they.

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Speaker 1: Eventually one bathroom break and one Starbucks stopped later. Can

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Speaker 1: I get a Veni Cafe Misto. I arrive in San Diego.

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Speaker 1: I'm driving around downtown and I find a parking spot

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Speaker 1: a couple blocks away from the courthouse for thirty six dollars.

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Speaker 1: I seriously can't afford to live in California anyway. I

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Speaker 1: walk to the courthouse, mill around outside, and I start

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Speaker 1: searching feverishly for Michelle Mack. My eyes are peeled. There

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Speaker 1: are crowds of people coming in and out of the courthouse,

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Speaker 1: and I'm looking for the woman I saw getting arrested

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Speaker 1: in that CNBC story. The woman in custody is Michelle Mack.

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Speaker 3: According to the search ward.

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Speaker 1: In that report. She's got long, unkempt, dirty blonde hair,

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Speaker 1: and she's wearing pink pajamas and fuzzy slippers. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know she's not gonna be wearing that to courd

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Speaker 1: but that's my only frame of reference. And after a

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Speaker 1: couple hours of eyeballing everyone coming in and out of court,

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Speaker 1: I start to lose hope because I don't see her anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Then suddenly a woman walks out. Could that be Michelle Mack.

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Speaker 1: She's wearing a black skin tight sweater with white pants

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Speaker 1: that are embroidered with black geometric patterns. Her hair is

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Speaker 1: slipped back and pinned up. It looks much darker than

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Speaker 1: Michelle Mack's hair. She's in full makeup, and she's carrying

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Speaker 1: a big Louis Vauton bag. On the one hand, this

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Speaker 1: woman looks nothing like the Michelle Mack I saw getting

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Speaker 1: arrested in that CNBC video. This woman looks like a

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Speaker 1: high end reeltor or an executive at some big company.

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Speaker 1: But when I look her in the eyes, it suddenly

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Speaker 1: clicks that's her face. That is definitely Michelle Mack. At

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Speaker 1: that point, I unexpectedly freeze. I'm suddenly filled with doubt.

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Speaker 1: She has no idea that I'm watching her every move.

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Speaker 1: I feel like a full on predator, and it feels

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Speaker 1: really icky and weird, and I actually start debating whether

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Speaker 1: or not I should even talk to her all. But

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Speaker 1: I drove all the way down here from Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: and I paid thirty six bucks for parking, and I've

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Speaker 1: been looking for her for the past two hours, and

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Speaker 1: I really want to get an interview with her, so

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Speaker 1: I have to say something, right, I'll just be as

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Speaker 1: nice and as polite as possible. So I steel myself

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Speaker 1: and I put on my best poker face, well my

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Speaker 1: best polite poker face, and I walk up to her. Hey, Michelle,

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Speaker 1: my name's Jonathan. I'm with the Queen of the Con podcast.

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Speaker 1: Just wanted to see if you'd be interested in talking

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Speaker 1: to me about charges and stuff that's going on. Michelle

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Speaker 1: Mack responds after the break, I know it's annoying. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: Thank god for that skip ahead button though, right, Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Queen of the Con. So I walk up

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Speaker 1: to Michelle outside court. Hey, Michelle, my name's Jonathan. I'm

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Speaker 1: with the Queen of the Con podcast. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to see if you'd be interested in talking to me

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Speaker 1: about charges and stuff that's going on. Comment, No comment.

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Speaker 1: How's it going today in court for you?

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Speaker 3: I have no comment on anything.

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Speaker 1: Are you planning to plead guilty or go to trial

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Speaker 1: on the one hundred and forty counts?

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Speaker 3: No comment?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you look really nice today in court.

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Speaker 3: I gotta say, did you say that? Well, because here's

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Speaker 3: what you do. Hey, by the way, you look great,

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Speaker 3: you look amazing. What are you wearing?

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Speaker 1: My buddy Evan Goldstein catch bees with honey, I feel

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Speaker 1: like cannibal lecter.

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Speaker 3: You would look scrumptious with a bottom.

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Speaker 1: No. No, it's just remember when the Senator thinks he's

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Speaker 1: going to tell her where her daughter is and he

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Speaker 1: they bring him to this warehouse. You're supposed to give

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Speaker 1: him a new prison, and they don't, so then he

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Speaker 1: renegs in his agreement, and then the Senator's pissed at

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Speaker 1: him as she's walking away and he says, oh, and snada,

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Speaker 1: just one more lavia suit. I felt like that. I

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Speaker 1: was like, by the way, you look great.

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Speaker 3: Putt wasn't the greatest movie ever made? O, man, it's

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Speaker 3: still it's so good anyway.

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Speaker 1: So I am kind of riddled with apprehension and doubt

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Speaker 1: as to whether or not I should approach her. I

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Speaker 1: feel like a like a vulture. Yeah, I feel bad

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Speaker 1: for her because she's a woman. I'm a man. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I just felt really bad and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: do I want to do this? And I don't have

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Speaker 1: I don't have anyone with me. I'm by myself. You know.

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Speaker 1: When I started after I graduated college, my first job

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Speaker 1: out of school, I was a special projects producer for

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Speaker 1: the local station news station in Miami WSVN. You're watching

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Speaker 1: seven itself War. It is number one news source. And

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Speaker 1: I worked with some amazing investigative reporters, Carmel Kafero. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you have to say about what's going on here?

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Speaker 1: Patrick Frasier. We had come to talk to the president

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Speaker 1: of the associations Born. They had the confrontation down to

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Speaker 1: a science. They were so good and so bold and

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Speaker 1: so brave, and I watched in awe as they would

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Speaker 1: confront the bad guys. And now this is kind of

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Speaker 1: I mean, the last confrontation I did was with Mayor.

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Speaker 1: You've been scamming as out of money this whole time,

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Speaker 1: you have, But I was so angry.

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Speaker 3: You had a lot of skin in the game.

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Speaker 1: I did, like, I hated her guts and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get this confrontation recorded and give it to police

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Speaker 1: who knew they wouldn't give a flying fuck.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so now I'm confronting Michelle Mack and I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm scared, Like do I walk up to her? And

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Speaker 1: there's just like literally two or three minutes where I'm

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Speaker 1: like debating and I'm like walking up and I'm turning

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Speaker 1: around and I'm walking back and then I'm no, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. I have to do it. I'm here.

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Speaker 1: I drove down. It's like two hours. I drove like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm like talking, psyching myself up. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then I walk up to her. She just said no

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Speaker 1: comment over and over.

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Speaker 3: Again, and so what she just sat there, stone faced comment.

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Speaker 1: She looked at me, yeah, and I'm I'm taller than her,

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Speaker 1: so she's looking up to me saying no comment, no comment.

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Speaker 1: I felt bad, but I needed to get a I

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Speaker 1: needed to request an interview so I can officially say

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Speaker 1: she you know, because saying she never got back to

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Speaker 1: me is not a no. But her saying no comment,

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Speaker 1: no thank you, whatever, that she doesn't want to do

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Speaker 1: an interview. I know that for sure now, and she

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Speaker 1: has no comment.

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Speaker 3: I think it's different sometimes when you read about someone,

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Speaker 3: but this is like being confronted with the person. You

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Speaker 3: have to look into their eyes. You have to, you know,

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Speaker 3: see how they react. It's awkward. It's weird, and it's

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Speaker 3: not like you're like talking about something great. Hey, you

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Speaker 3: want to get some ice cream. It's like, hey, these

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Speaker 3: serious felony charges that are against you. What do you

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Speaker 3: think you know, it's not like so I could I

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Speaker 3: could see that. I you know, I wouldn't be good

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Speaker 3: at you know. I think it's very brave thing to

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Speaker 3: do to just kind of confront someone and just ask,

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Speaker 3: you know, like, what do you think?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I mean, and it's valid.

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Speaker 3: And it's hey, I guarantee you she's gonna have a

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Speaker 3: million microphones shoved in her face soon.

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Speaker 1: Which brings me to the California Department of Justice and

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Speaker 1: their lengthy and unwieldy criminal case against Michelle Mack. Turns out,

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Speaker 1: it's actually not that unique. There are, in fact, thousands

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Speaker 1: of Michelle mac types operating across this country right now.

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Speaker 2: When you have a crime happening in San Diego, in

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Speaker 2: Orange County, in Los Angeles, in Covina, those police departments

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Speaker 2: aren't coordinating.

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Speaker 1: That's Scott Tenley. He worked for years as an ACE

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Speaker 1: federal prosecutor with the US Attorney's Office, taking down the

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Speaker 1: Michelle max of the world. Nowadays he's a defense attorney

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Speaker 1: with his own practice.

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Speaker 2: The defendant views the prosecutor as out to get them

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Speaker 2: and malicious.

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Speaker 1: That's why someone will want to hire you because you

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Speaker 1: worked as a prosecutor at the federal level, like the

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Speaker 1: highest level. So you know all the tricks they're pulling. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say tricks. I would say you as a

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Speaker 1: I know you wouldn't say as a former prosecutor. You

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Speaker 1: have insight into how the federal government and prosecutors might

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Speaker 1: look at a case and what's important, what's not important,

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Speaker 1: what might move them to a certain disposition, or where

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Speaker 1: the holes might be, where the holes might be. That's

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Speaker 1: what I meant tricks. Yeah, in Scott Tinley's eight years

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Speaker 1: with a Department of Justice, he's literally seen and done

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Speaker 1: it all.

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Speaker 2: So one of the largest cases I did was a

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Speaker 2: ring of gang members out of Los Angeles who are

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Speaker 2: stealing Rolex watches. And so you had a group of

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Speaker 2: organizers or leaders that would recruit younger gang members to

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Speaker 2: run into jewelry stores, smash the cases, steal the watches,

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Speaker 2: and bring them back to the kind of organizers of

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Speaker 2: the of the watching. Ultimately, they stole six point two

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Speaker 2: million dollars of watches, mostly Rolex watches. Yes, and so

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Speaker 2: we ended up charging in that case twenty two defendants

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Speaker 2: with federal crimes.

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Speaker 1: Why are rolexes so expensive?

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Speaker 2: They manage supply. Rolex manage supply. It's a racket, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's insane that one watch is fifty thousand dollars, Like,

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Speaker 2: in what world is a watch fifty thousand?

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Speaker 1: Like, it's crazy. It's that they're manipulating supply demand.

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Speaker 2: It's almost impossible to walk into a store and buy

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Speaker 2: a rolex, right, you have to develop a relationship, you

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Speaker 2: have to buy multiple rolexes.

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Speaker 1: But then also such bullshits.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they'll they'll put diamonds around the outside. That gets expensive.

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Speaker 2: But one of the watches was in autumar Peget that

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Speaker 2: was two hundred and eighty five thousand dollars. So some

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Speaker 2: of these are just astronauts.

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Speaker 1: Just it's you know, as human beings, we ascribe whatever

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Speaker 1: value everyone will agree on and we play the game.

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Speaker 1: It's like the art world, like a Rembrandt is like

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Speaker 1: three hundred millionaire.

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Speaker 2: That's all money laundering.

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Speaker 1: It's tax taxivating, right, that's what's really happening. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: money laundering. So on the surface, it's like the art

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Speaker 1: world and hundreds of millions in blah blah, But really criminals,

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Speaker 1: drug dealers or whatever need to legitimize their income. So

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Speaker 1: they're just washing it through the art world. So if

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Speaker 1: any if you pick up a stone, you'll see like

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Speaker 1: a lot of dirty stuff you want to see. Yep. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: Defense attorney Scott Tenley is now sifting through the criminal

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Speaker 1: complaint against shoplifting queen Michelle Mack and her eight other

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Speaker 1: co defendants.

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Speaker 2: So the first count is conspiracy to commit organized retail theft.

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Speaker 1: That is one hell of a criminal complaint, Like, it's

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Speaker 1: thirty five pages and it goes into some detail. One

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Speaker 1: hundred and forty felony counts. Have you ever charged anyone

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Speaker 1: with one hundred and forty felon accounts?

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Speaker 2: No, one hundred and forty is going to be rare.

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Speaker 2: But they aren't all against Michelle Mack, right, So some

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Speaker 2: of them are against her co defendants who are actually

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Speaker 2: going into the stores and stealing the goods I mean.

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Speaker 1: But they're all mentioned at the beginning of that complaint.

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Speaker 1: So aren't one hundred and forty felony accounts against all

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Speaker 1: of them?

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Speaker 2: No, they're only against the people who are named in

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Speaker 2: each individual account. So count eight grand theft, for example,

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Speaker 2: is only again against defendant Ramos, who is likely the

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Speaker 2: person who went into the aulta store that day and

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Speaker 2: took the nine hundred fifty dollars.

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Speaker 1: Wow, and nine hundred and fifty for a specific reason.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So in twenty fourteen, California voters passed Proposition forty seven,

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Speaker 2: which made theft of goods under nine hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: dollars a misdemeanor. So in order to be a felony,

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Speaker 2: the theft has to be over nine hundred fifty dollars. Now,

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Speaker 2: because of that, what you saw, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: people blame forty seven for this is a rash of

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Speaker 2: retail theft because, for example, if you go and run

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Speaker 2: in and do a smash and grab, you might not

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Speaker 2: get caught. If you do get caught, it's probably not

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Speaker 2: going to be a felony. You're probably going to get bail,

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Speaker 2: and you have, you know, really a lot of potential

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Speaker 2: reward with a little bit of risk. So what authorities

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Speaker 2: did and lawmakers did is they said, well, we don't

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Speaker 2: want to overturn prop forty seven, and they passed an

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Speaker 2: organized Retail Theft Bill, which is a new crime that

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Speaker 2: basically says, yes, still you have the nine hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty dollars threshold, but if you're doing an organized conspiratorial

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Speaker 2: retail theft ring. That is a felony regardless of the value.

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Speaker 2: So that's why in this complaint you see everybody first

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Speaker 2: charged with organized retail theft, and then after that you

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Speaker 2: see a lot of the individual grand theft events themselves.

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Speaker 1: And keep in mind, Michelle Mack was running her shoplifting

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Speaker 1: ring for more than a decade under everyone's radar, police,

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Speaker 1: her neighbors, her customers, and the accidental, stupid, stupid, stupid

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Speaker 1: thing that led authorities right to her front door is

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Speaker 1: after the break. Welcome back to Queen of the Khan.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading over the criminal complaint now with defense attorney

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Speaker 1: Scott Tenley.

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Speaker 2: And then it lists a number of overt acts afterwards,

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Speaker 2: and there's about let's look through twenty three overt.

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Speaker 1: Acts and what's an overt act?

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Speaker 2: In order to have a conspiracy under the law, you

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Speaker 2: have to have an agreement between two or more people

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Speaker 2: to commit a crime, and then you actually have to

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Speaker 2: do something. So Jonathan, you and I right here today

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Speaker 2: could say, yeah, let's rob a bank. If we don't

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Speaker 2: do anything else, it's not a crime. But Jonathan, if

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Speaker 2: you left this room and found the bank, we're going

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Speaker 2: to rob and wrote down the address. All of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: we're in a conspiracy to rob a bank because you

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Speaker 2: took a substantial step toward completing the act. And so

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Speaker 2: that's still bank robbery or attempted bank robbery.

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Speaker 1: So if they busted us, then our bank robbing crime duo,

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Speaker 1: that's enough to charge.

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Speaker 2: Now, theoretically, are they going to be able to prove

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Speaker 2: us guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on just that that's

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Speaker 2: going to be a little tricky, but yes, technically we'd

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Speaker 2: committed the crime. And so what prosecutors do with the

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Speaker 2: overt acts is they try to lay out what's happening

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Speaker 2: with the conspiracy. So as you read through these twenty

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Speaker 2: three overt acts, a lot of them are about conspirators

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Speaker 2: going into the stores and stealing merchandise. But then there

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Speaker 2: are other overt acts which set forth their communications. So,

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Speaker 2: for instance, on December fourth, twenty twenty two, Mac messaged Franco, are.

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Speaker 5: You still going to be having product coming on Friday?

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Speaker 2: And Franco responds yes. Now that shows conspiracy. It's two

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Speaker 2: people discussing the ins and outs of the conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, all those text messages documented in

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Speaker 1: the criminal complaint are kind of the smoking gun in

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Speaker 1: this whole case, And it turns out those text messages

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Speaker 1: were the only reason authorities figured out Michelle Mack was

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Speaker 1: running a shoplifting ring to begin with. I mean, she'd

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Speaker 1: been successfully doing it for more than ten years undetected.

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Speaker 1: But when cops inadvertently arrested one of Michelle Mack's low

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Speaker 1: level California girls after she got busted for stealing, they

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Speaker 1: got a search warrant for that California girl self and

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Speaker 1: proceeded to find a plethora of incriminating text messages to

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Speaker 1: and from Michelle Mack. Some of those text messages are

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Speaker 1: referenced prominently in the criminal complaint. For instance, in July

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, Michelle Mack texts one of her

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Speaker 1: shoplifters in the field, who apparently is supposed to be

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Speaker 1: finding her more shoplifters, did.

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Speaker 5: You get some new girls A really need product, so

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Speaker 5: if you have anything, please let me know.

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Speaker 1: Now, in my mind, the really damning thing about that

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Speaker 1: text is the way Michelle Mack refers to stolen stuff

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Speaker 1: is quote product, I really need product, which, if you recall,

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Speaker 1: that is the specific term the professional shoplifter I interviewed

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Speaker 1: in episode three used frequently. She called her stolen stuff product.

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Speaker 3: Two. At first we were taking them to a house

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Speaker 3: where they could sell their product. To this first thing

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Speaker 3: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of people, they'll just give her product for payment. Daniel

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Speaker 1: owe her one hundred dollars in product. You know, so

437
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: calling stolen stuff product is clearly something professional shoplifters do. Also,

438
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 1: there are text messages that show Michelle Mack's husband, Kenneth

439
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: was in on the shoplifting ring. Two. In February of

440
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Michelle texts her husband Kenneth, apparently referencing

441
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: a recent theft that was not as fruitful as they'd hoped.

442
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 5: Even without Langcombe, we still did well. Meeting spot for

443
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 5: Elena at eleven am.

444
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: Now. Elena is Alena Franco, one of Michelle Max California Girls,

445
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: who is also charged in this gigantic shoplifting ring case,

446
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: as is a woman named Kimora Lee Gooding, who texts

447
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: Michelle Mack in January of twenty twenty three, apparently while

448
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: she's in a store actually stealing stuff, asking Michelle Mack

449
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: for the names of more product that she can snatch.

450
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 6: I'm not stealing regular I'm going to start feeling up

451
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 6: my bag, COUI, so I want to know stuff that

452
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 6: I can grab in bulk.

453
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: So prosecutors include that that's a great text message because

454
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: it shows mac who is the one selling the goods,

455
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 2: knows that Gooding, who in this instance is stealing the goods,

456
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: is giving her stolen merchandise. So these overt acts really

457
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: kind of flesh out how the conspiracy operated. There's other

458
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: ones about payment, about how they wired money, there's ones

459
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: about shipping orders. It kind of hits the whole conspiracy

460
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: of people are stealing items, they're bringing them to Michelle

461
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: Mack who is selling them on Amazon and then shipping

462
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: them out. And then after that you have from count

463
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: three for dozens and dozens of counts through Count one

464
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty eight, so she's one hundred and thirty

465
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: five counts of grand theft. And each of these counts

466
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: is going to be a different date, a different defendant,

467
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: and a different county. So this is each individual act

468
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 2: of theft that was bringing in these products that were

469
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: then sold by Michelle Mack. So you have one hundred

470
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: and thirty five counts of grand theft.

471
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: And each of those grand theft counts aren't specifically for

472
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: Michelle Mack, just one of the California.

473
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: Girls, correct, Because technically Michelle Mack did not commit theft.

474
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: She didn't go in the store take the merchandise. Now,

475
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: theoretically she's potentially aiding in abedding depending on the nature

476
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: of the conspiracy. But they haven't alleged she's liable for

477
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: each individual theft.

478
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Are they implying she is.

479
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's part of the conspiracy, so she will be

480
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: held accountable for it. It's just she's not charged with

481
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: a grand theft count. So at the end of the day,

482
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: it's not going to matter because every theft is encompassed

483
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 2: within that broader conspiracy.

484
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: Right, the conspiracy is the main course, and maybe those

485
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: grand theft counts are just like a dessert.

486
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if I would make that analogy, as

487
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: delicious as it might be.

488
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: I says, a conspiracy is the bigger charge in terms

489
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: of time wise in your experience, what gets you more

490
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: time in the clink a conspiracy or a grant theft?

491
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: Well, I would say it this way. The conspiracy is

492
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: what ties everything together. And so if you just commit

493
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: one theft at Alta in San Diego County. That doesn't

494
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 2: seem like a big deal. But if you're working with

495
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: ten people to commit one hundred and thirty five thefts

496
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 2: across the state, that is certainly much more aggravating. So

497
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 2: it is it is the bigger piece of pie. To

498
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: use some type of dessert analogy.

499
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you're interesting. I gave up sugar, so it's

500
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: all I can think about. It's important to point out

501
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: here that Michelle Mack is presumed innocent until proven guilty

502
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: in a court of law, though the evidence against her

503
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: at this point seems pretty staggering. This is not in

504
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: the judicated case, right, she has not been convicted. Do

505
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: you see her walking away from this scott free?

506
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: Well, based on the charging document, it does, and seem

507
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: like if she's convicted, she's going to do no jail time. Right.

508
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: This is a very serious, long running, widespread kind of

509
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: criminal conspiracy. So this isn't the type of conspiracy where

510
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 2: you're going to get a slap on the wrist when

511
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: I see a search warrant executed where they're recovering three

512
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars of property, where I see, you know,

513
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: there's newspaper reports that they have the Amazon store where

514
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: they're selling this merchandise, and then you see the text messages.

515
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 2: That's a very difficult case for a defendant. Obviously, anything

516
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: can happen. She's innocent until proven guilty. She'll have her

517
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 2: day in court if she wants it. But this is

518
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: going to be a very difficult case for her.

519
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: Is there a chance she's innocent? Yes? Is there? How?

520
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: So walk me through the world where she's innocent. I'm

521
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: just curious because you know, there were search warrants, they

522
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: raided her place, they got all the stuff, they've been

523
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: following her. This is like a two year investigation. Is

524
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: there a chance they have the wrong person?

525
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: In your experience, Oh, well, I mean there's always a chance.

526
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: There's always a chance to No. I mean, this on

527
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: its face appears to be a very strong case. And

528
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: when you know that Michelle Mack is running an Amazon

529
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: store selling retail products for well below their market value

530
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: half off, Yeah, and where you have a record of

531
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: organized thefts of those same retail products, and where you

532
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: have the thieves in contact with Michelle Mack, It's difficult

533
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: to fathom a scenario right under which they've just got

534
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: the wrong person. But as a criminal defense attorney, I

535
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: know this is always one side of the story. There's

536
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: always another side of the story. Sometimes the other side

537
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: of the story is complete bullshit and the person is guilty.

538
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: But there are times when the government just gets it wrong.

539
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: I mean, reading through the indictment, I found typos, right,

540
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows. Yeah, I mean not that that's

541
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: going to change anything, but it's like.

542
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Not be funny if that I could throw the whole

543
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: case out your honor. There's a typo on line fourteen,

544
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: so this can't stack.

545
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: But it's just you know, the government is not infallible.

546
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: They certainly aren't. I mean, just recently, Scott Tenley defended

547
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: a client who was charged with defrauding his employer out

548
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: of three million dollars, and Scott was able to find

549
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of mistakes in the government's case and he

550
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: got the charges dismissed. How the hell did you pull

551
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: that off, Scott Turnley.

552
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: We were able to use all the evidence the resources

553
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: at our disposal to build effectively a case to make

554
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: to the government that here's why you got it wrong,

555
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: and here's why this defendant didn't commit a fraud and

556
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: why you were led to believe he did and why

557
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: you were wrong, And we were fortunate to have prosecutors

558
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: in the US Attorney's office that were willing to hear

559
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: us out.

560
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: Keep in mind, if you get charged by federal prosecutors,

561
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: their conviction rate is nearly one hundred percent. So in

562
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: this case, the government got it wrong. Yes, I was

563
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: reluctant to believe that Michelle matt could get off, but

564
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: now what if she hires a Scott Tenley? The government

565
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: could be screwed.

566
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: But it just shows that mistakes can be made anywhere.

567
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: But you never know what thread that you pull, what

568
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: is going to fall apart. Most of the time you

569
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: pull a thread and it just pops off, and that

570
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: the clothes are still there, right. But every once in

571
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: a while you pull the thread and slowly things kind

572
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: of fall apart.

573
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: Wow, good job man, Thank you. You're insanely modest. But

574
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: there was nothing short of just that was a herculean

575
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: task you did to get that guy off. I mean,

576
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: don't take that the wrong way. And this is not

577
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: a local case in some tiny county in some tiny state.

578
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: This was a federal case against this guy. These were

579
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: federal prosecutors like a team of them. This is the

580
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: Department of freaking Justice, and you got it dismissed. Wow,

581
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: thanks sir, Thanks av Man, Bravo, Scott Tinley. So it's

582
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: possible with some good lawyering, Michelle Mack could get the

583
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: charges against her dismissed too. But defense attorneys for complex

584
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: criminal cases like this can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

585
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: And since Michelle Max's Amazon store got shut down after

586
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: her arrest back in December, her reliable stream of income

587
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: is no more so. In a stunning turn of events,

588
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: Michelle Mack puts her three million dollar mansion up for

589
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: sale and hires this guy. So, I'm Greg Vogel. I'm

590
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: a commercial photographer and I specialize in commercial and residential

591
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: real estate. Greg's supposed to shoot drone video to help

592
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: promote Michelle Mack's mansion to prospective buyers. But when he

593
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: shows up with his drone, to be a lot of

594
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: tension in the air, and that was definitely something.

595
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: That I could send. I thought, you know, possibly it's

596
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 4: a divor situation.

597
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Queen of the con tell someone click

598
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Speaker 1: that share button and send this podcast to anyone you

599
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: think might be into it. Also, if you can leave

600
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Speaker 1: us a five star review, reviews really help other listeners

601
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Speaker 1: find us. Queen of the con The California Girls is

602
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me

603
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: Jonathan Walton. Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions

604
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Consulting producer Evan Goldstein.

605
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: Written by Jonathan Walton, Sound design by Zach Hirsch, Edited

606
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: and mixed by Zach Hirsch, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam. Mastered

607
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: by Justin Longerbeam. Legal counsel for ay R Media, Gianni Douglas,

608
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: executive producer for iHeartMedia. Maya Howard Voice acting by Milan

609
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: Faxis and Elaine Ballas