1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: It is taking the most feminized object of all objects, 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: the heel, and a spike stiletto heel at that, and 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: it is masculinizing it to show that she is tough 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: by making it a weapon. 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 2: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Seusie Bannacaram. 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: And this is in retrospect, where each week we revisit 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: a cultural moment that shaped. 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about. 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: Most of the time we talk about the past, but 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: sometimes the past and present collide. That happened this week 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: in politics, when an ageal dispute about high heels made 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: its way onto the Republican debate stage. 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 3: Jess it might surprise some of our friends to know 14 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 3: that late last week we were texting well into the 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 3: night about high heels, and so I thought we should 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: bring it to the podcast because I feel like I 17 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 3: learned a lot of things and laughed a lot during 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 3: that Texic exchange. High heels had come up in the 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 3: most recent Republican debate, and you're writing a story about it, 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 3: So that's why we were making all these jokes. 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us a little bit about 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: the story. 23 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: Yes, So I've been working on this piece that is 24 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: out now about Nikki Haley, who is one of the 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: Republican candidates, and the debate that is occurring. That really 26 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: came to a head at the actual debate. It was 27 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: the third Republican debate. It was in Miami, and there 28 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: was this moment that immediately went viral, was making all 29 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: the rounds where Vivek Gramaswami. He is the tech entrepreneur candidate. 30 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: You know, he's sort of brash, he's like one of 31 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: the younger. 32 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 2: He's so smarmy. Yeah, he's like kind of a know 33 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: it all. 34 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: Whenever they do a poll after the debates, everyone's like, 35 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 3: he said, to know it all. 36 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, So him, there was a question from the 37 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: moderator about the US role in Israel and Gaza, and 38 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: he was trying to differentiate himself from like what he 39 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: believes is the old guard the other people on stage. 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 4: And so the way he does that is he says, 41 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: do you. 42 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Want a leader from a different generation who's going to 43 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: put this country first? Or do you want Dick Cheney 44 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: in three inch heels, all right, we've got two of 45 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: them on stage. 46 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 4: So Haley takes a beat to respond. 47 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: She lets this question play out She waits until the 48 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: next question, and then she first corrects him. 49 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 5: She says, yes, I'd first like to say they're five 50 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 5: inch heels and I don't wear them unless you can 51 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 5: run in them. And then she says, I wear heels 52 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 5: or not for a fashion statement. 53 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: They're for ammunition what we need. 54 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 4: To be doing. 55 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 3: Okay, I have a lot of things to say here. 56 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: First of all, five inchials are impressive, Like I do 57 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 3: want to say that's standing at a podium for hours, 58 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 3: and imen sheeals is impressive, and that she says she 59 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: can run in them at some point. 60 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: I think that's great. But what is she talking about? 61 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 3: Like what does it mean they're not for fashion their ammunition? 62 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: Is she going to use them as like a weapon? 63 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: Is she going to like bludgeon someone. 64 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: With the heel? Like I don't know what that mean? 65 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I was just like, isn't that inevitably going 66 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: to bring up like bad single white female references? Like 67 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: remember how she truly bludgeons someone with her stiletto heel 68 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: in that movie. 69 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: I did not remember that? 70 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 3: In retrospect, Wow, in retrospect, I mean I did. 71 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: We talked about this last week. 72 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 3: I did remember that cover with Hillary Clinton's heel with 73 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: like a little man dangling from it. 74 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: That was in the twenty sixteen election. 75 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: That was actually in twenty fourteen, it was before she 76 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: was running. But high heels are so symbolic in many ways, 77 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: and if you look back at what they have represented 78 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: over time and particularly for women in politics. Yes, Hillary 79 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: Clinton was pictured on the cover of Time magazine in 80 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen with this sort of stiletto heel, except it 81 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: was like more of a sensible pump. Yes, I meant 82 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: to be kind of dowdy. 83 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, because you know in DC, the women don't 84 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: wear stiletto heels, or at least they didn't used. 85 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: To in my day. They weren't usable too. Yeah, exactly. 86 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: And on this cover, like you said, there's this tiny 87 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: little man underneath the heel and she's like supposed to 88 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: be squashing him. And then also there's that Ginger Rogers quote. 89 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: She was a famous actress and her dance partner was 90 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: Fred Astare, and she had to do everything he did, 91 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: but backwards and in high heels. 92 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: It's true. 93 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 3: I mean, high heels do represent It's kind of an 94 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: interesting thing because they represent a sort of female power. 95 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 2: But they also do have a sort of a sexual connotation. 96 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: So yes, there's something interesting about the imagery because it's 97 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 3: not actually a powerful thing to have to be in 98 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 3: five inch heels. I mean, there is something that feels 99 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 3: powerful about being in heels, but then if you have 100 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: to walk in them, you feel much less powerful because 101 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 3: you have to be so careful. 102 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: I was reading something recently about Sarah Palin who had 103 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: complained about how in two thousand and eight, when she 104 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: had to debate Joe Biden, she and Biden had to 105 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: stand up there, but she was of course in heels, 106 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: and how in the previous VP debates they'd all been seated. 107 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: So mean, fair, no standing in heels for many hours, 108 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: not super comfortable. But the other element of this that 109 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: is relevant is that this diss by Vivek was not 110 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: just targeted at Hailey, like obviously Haley's the only one 111 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: in heels, she's the only woman on stage. But I 112 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: don't know if you've been following this whole. 113 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: Oh, I've been following, you know, I have following. 114 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: De Santis his cowboy boots and whether he's wearing lifts 115 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: in them. 116 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 3: I mean it seems to me, again, I'm not a 117 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: shoe expert. It seems very clear that he is wearing 118 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: lifts and essentially walking on tiptoe all the time. So 119 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 3: I do think this was a practice line that was 120 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: supposed to have two meetings. 121 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 4: Wait, and he was like so pleased with himself. 122 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: Get it, Haley. 123 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: But it was also like a subtle dig for everyone 124 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 3: who knows, because Vivec is very much like of the 125 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 3: online troll generation. He's very in those communities and like 126 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: on x and like on TikTok, So I feel like 127 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: he was throwing them a little like subtle easter egg 128 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: that they could use for all the like memes about 129 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 3: Dysantas and his heels well. 130 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 4: And the meme. 131 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: So then I went down this rabbit hole of the memes. 132 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: I mean, they're not even memes. They're actual images of 133 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: Dysantis in his cowboy boots in different scenarios, in different 134 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: media appearances, where they've actually diagrammed, like the bend of 135 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: the foot where the topops out, where you can see 136 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: the line of them through his pants, how they make 137 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: him walk, Like every single element of this man walking 138 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: in these Kawoi boots has been dissected to the point 139 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: that Politico actually sent a men's wear writer to go 140 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: interview shoemakers. 141 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 4: About what they thought. 142 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: And so this writer finds this shoemaker who's a bespoke 143 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: boot maker who specifically makes cowboy boots for Texas politicians 144 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: with lifts. 145 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 146 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: Who then goes on and says like, absolutely, this man 147 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: is lifting his shoes. 148 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 4: And then he goes on to say what that lift 149 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 4: does is it gives you the equivalent of five inch heels. 150 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: So him and Halia were wearing the same size heels. 151 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: So you know they're on a level playing field, except 152 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: that they're not. 153 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: But I mean, also, I think what's interesting about this 154 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: is how much stigma there is around the idea that 155 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: DeSantis would be wearing lifts. Right, there's just obviously this 156 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: clear sense that it's feminizing or somehow shameful that he 157 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: would be doing this, and that he must also feel 158 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: that himself. It's not like a projection from other people, 159 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 3: because I mean, I think he has denied it, right, 160 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 3: has the campaign officially denied it? 161 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 4: Yeah? 162 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: So I mean, what you do if you are a 163 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: man running for president in twenty twenty three and someone 164 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: lodges some silly critique at you, is you go. 165 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 4: For their boss. 166 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: And so what he did was he immediately attacked Trump, 167 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: who had been mocking him over this, and said, I 168 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: dare you to have the balls to show up to 169 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: the next debate, and if you do, I'll wear a 170 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: boot on my head. And then and then his campaign 171 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: began actually selling golf balls that say, Ron DeSantis has 172 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: a pair he shows up. 173 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: That is really the state of the Republican primary is 174 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: in and of itself, a really sad state of affairs. 175 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: Right, we're literally living in a boys locker room. But 176 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: I think what you're touching on is something really important 177 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: and that this is actually why we're talking about this, 178 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: which is that the gender dynamics on both sides of 179 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: a male candidate who may be patting his heels and 180 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: a woman candidate who is wearing high heels is so 181 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: intertwined and complex. 182 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 4: And while she's trying. 183 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: To kind of take her high heel and show that 184 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: she can use it as a weapon in a masculine way, 185 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: I guess, like, I'm feminine, but I'm tough. 186 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: Also, he while knowing that tall men do in. 187 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: Fact get ahead, like there are studies showing that most 188 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: presidents have been above six feet tall, so he knows 189 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: this is an advantage, but like he can't possibly admit 190 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: to it because that would be gay. 191 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: I guess that's the thing is. 192 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 3: It's like he's afraid that it somehow puts his sexuality 193 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 3: in question. But also it's interesting because he must have 194 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: occasionally appeared not in his cowboy boots right, Like it's like, 195 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: who is he fooling? 196 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: He's going to get caught, right. 197 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: He seems to be wearing them all the time. 198 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: I mean I think a little bit honestly now he 199 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: is stuck in his su perverbial boots. 200 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: Let me ask you a serious question. 201 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 4: Can I stop making puns? 202 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: He wears his cowboy boots to bed? 203 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: Oh well, I wonder if you have lifts in them 204 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: or they're very hard to get off, Like boots are 205 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: hard to get off, Like. 206 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean maybe easier to get off because 207 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 3: you're like basically on tiptoe. 208 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 2: You're just sliding that leg. 209 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 4: They're already off your feet. No, I mean, it's so funny. 210 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: And then of course, like Trump is having a heyday 211 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: with this, and he's saying like, well, I don't know, 212 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: why don't you get platforms and like go on RuPaul's 213 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: drag race and it's become this total spectacle. 214 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 4: But meanwhile Hayley is like sort of using it to 215 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 4: her advantage in a way. 216 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: It's so weird because it's so rooted in sexism and homophobia. Yes, so, 217 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 3: like I guess not surprising coming out of this particular 218 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,479 Speaker 3: group of GOP candidates. 219 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: There's a long history of masculinity in politics in this country. 220 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 4: And I don't just mean literally because men. 221 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: Have been politicians, but the way that you've had to 222 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: show your masculinity, whether it's hunting or cowboy boots or 223 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: when there was that whole thing about calling Jeb Bush 224 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: a whimp, or Trump and Marco Rubio talking about the 225 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: size of their hands, like just disgusting stuff like that. 226 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: Well, also there's clearly some weird underpinning under all the 227 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: crowd sized conversations that Trump has, Like yeah, constantly arguing 228 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 3: about how big his crowd is, Yes, feels very much 229 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: like a metaphor or you've for something else. And there's 230 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: also that whole thing about female politicians have to lower 231 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 3: their voice, right, like they have to literally lower the 232 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 3: timber of their voice when they give speeches because it's 233 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: seen as more masculine or just more authoritative. 234 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, Margaret Thatcher famously did that. 235 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and also actually not in the political realm. There's 236 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: the whole thing about the woman who ran their noose, right, Yes, 237 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: she had that Steve Jobs look and then the deep 238 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 3: voice and now her voice doesn't sound anything like that 239 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 3: at trial, right, So there is this kind of subconscious 240 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 3: sense that things that are masculine have more authority, are 241 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 3: more serious. So for a politician like a Hillary I remember, 242 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 3: this was like a big issue when she was running, right, 243 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 3: because on the one hand, she didn't want to come 244 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: off as too feminine. She was criticized for being you know, 245 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 3: too masculine too right, Like she was like, oh the 246 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: pantsuits and that she was too tough, and then she 247 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 3: had to have that moment. Do you remember she had 248 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 3: that moment in New Hampshire where she like teared up 249 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 3: and everyone, Yeah, the tier. 250 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: It's like humanizing. 251 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 3: So it's kind of like an impossible thing, right, It's 252 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: like you can't be too feminine, you can't be too masculine. 253 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 3: It's like you're constantly having to perform your gender in 254 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 3: a political sphere, which is kind of interesting just given 255 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: the climate around gender in this country exactly. 256 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 4: That's what I was going to say. 257 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, sure, gender progress maybe happening culturally, although 258 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: you could argue that both ways, but certainly there's a 259 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: more expansive view of it. 260 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 4: But when it comes to politics and the people who 261 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 4: are growing up. 262 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: On stage, it's the same old square box to the 263 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: extent that like, yeah, of course the female candidates have 264 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: to wear high heels. 265 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 4: They have to show that they are appropriately. 266 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: Feminine, right, and they have to balance the idea that 267 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: they are likable with also being able to run a country, 268 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: which like, you're probably not going to be very likable 269 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: when you're having to make hard decisions, right, we all 270 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: know that. But it is so interesting what you say, 271 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: like these costumes men and women. For men, it's like 272 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: blue or black suit and that crisp white shirt with 273 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: a tie that's probably silk, and you always have the 274 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: jacket on in the suit unless you're like on the 275 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: road talking to real people, and then maybe you like 276 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: roll you take the jacket up and you roll. 277 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 4: Up your sleeves. 278 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: That's like I'm a man of the people. But a 279 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: woman could never do that. And for a woman it's like, okay, 280 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: you have to make the choice. 281 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 4: Am I like a pants suit? 282 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: Gal? 283 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 4: Or like am I a skirts? 284 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: Well? 285 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: And also it says so much about you, like even 286 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: do you remember when Obama wore the tan suit? 287 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: Oh? 288 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: I don't remember this, Oh you don't remember this. 289 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 3: This was like a huge scandal. He literally wore a 290 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 3: tan suit, Like that was the scandal. The scandal was 291 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: that he wore the suit, and Republicans were like, it's 292 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: undignified for the president. And I found like there was 293 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: a tinge of racism in that right, because it was like, 294 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: he has to perform a certain version of what it's 295 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 3: like to be president. If he makes any choices that 296 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 3: veer away from that, he's roundly criticized. And then Trump 297 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 3: got to office and did all sorts. 298 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: Of crazy things. 299 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 4: Oh my god, it. 300 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 3: Made the fact that that was a scandal seems so ridiculous. Right, 301 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 3: And so there are these ways in which you know, 302 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: the men are examined too, But it does feel like 303 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 3: Haley in particular in her race, has had to walk 304 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: a real tightrope because you know, the men get really 305 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: down and dirty with each other, as proven by this 306 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: story you told about Ron DeSantis and his golf balls. 307 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: But you know, she also can't do that because that 308 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: would also be seen as unladylike and undignos digniful. Oh yeah, 309 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 3: like her zingers have to be lady appropriate. 310 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: Yes, I know, that's well and that's why so you know, 311 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: so many people after she gave that retort about her 312 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: heels being ammunition, and then she actually liked the retort 313 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: so much that she went on Twitter or x and 314 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: posted it again. 315 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: And it doesn't make any sense. 316 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: But I feel like maybe it is a good line, 317 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: because I mean it's not. 318 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: It's objectively very. 319 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: Bad line, but it is doing something which is it 320 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: is taking the most feminized object of all objects, the 321 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: heel and a spike stiletto heel a at and it 322 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: is masculinizing it to show that she is tough by 323 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: making it a weapon. But then she's also doing it 324 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: in a way that's like she's got humor about it. 325 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: Like she didn't like immediately jump into correct when this 326 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: exchange was happening. She gave it to be she didn't 327 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: come off as emotional. She waited, and then she like 328 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: delivered this line that in fact, she has practiced many times. 329 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: She's been using a version of this high heels line 330 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: for many years. 331 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 4: Wow, it turns out, yeah, this is. 332 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: Love that allows this. 333 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: But I do have to say that all I keep 334 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: thinking about in this conversation is how exhausting it is 335 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 3: to be a woman. Like I just have to say 336 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 3: this because I feel this way even when I was 337 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: going in the office every day. It's like a guy 338 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: can just take a shower and put on like a 339 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: button down and some like nice pants and he's good. 340 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: But if I'm going into the office, I have to 341 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 3: think about like a million different things. 342 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: Right, like my hair. I can't look crazy. 343 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 3: I have to be like in appropriate outfit. I have 344 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: to put on makeup. I just think that we expect 345 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 3: so much of women, and then there's so many ways 346 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: in which women are criticized. 347 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: It's like this constant thing that you have to be 348 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 2: on guard for. 349 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 3: So I'm kind of happy DeSantis is getting like a 350 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: tiny taste of that medicine. 351 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 4: Honestly, yeah, he is. 352 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: And actually that reminds me of something that Barack Obama 353 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: said in two thousand and eight after he had beat 354 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. It was like after he had been inaugurated 355 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: and he was complimenting her essentially on running like a 356 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: tough race, and he used the Ginger Rogers line about 357 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: having to walk backward in high heels because he'd been 358 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: talking about how he would like go to the gym 359 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: and you know, be able to relax, and she'd have 360 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: to like spend hours and hours and hours in hair 361 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: and makeup. Yeah, at the time, I remember thinking, like, 362 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: is that a degrade in comp Like is that it 363 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: was a little flip. It was akin to each your 364 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: likable and enough Hillary, But it was also pointing out 365 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: a real double standard in that way. When I was 366 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: thinking about this and researching it, I actually learned that 367 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: heels were invented for men. 368 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 4: Really, did you know this? 369 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: I don't think I did know that. 370 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 4: So I give you a little history of the high heel. 371 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: So back in the sixteen hundreds, they invented high heels 372 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: for men because in particular they were good for horse riding, 373 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: Like they would stay in the stirrup and secure your 374 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 1: sense in there. And so then during war or battle 375 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: or like whatever men did back then, when you were 376 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: standing up on your horse to like fire your musket, 377 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: your heel would stay in the stirrup. And so for 378 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: years and years and years, this was considered a manly thing. 379 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 4: Kings in Europe. 380 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: Would like walk the cobblestone streets and like wear their 381 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: tights and their heels like I'm sure you've seen photos 382 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: of like born from that air and they're yes, very 383 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: much though, And so I was like, when did this 384 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: thing become the most feminized and like eroticized thing for 385 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: women in a way, And as it turns out, women 386 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: eventually were like, well, men have all the power. They're 387 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: wearing the heels, like we want to we want to 388 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: try out these heels. And so initially I found this 389 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: amazing fact in this textbook written by sociologist Lisa Wade, 390 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: where it explains how in the sixteen hundreds in Massachusetts, 391 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: if you were a woman who was caught wearing heels, 392 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: you would be subject to the same punishment. 393 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 4: As a witch. 394 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: That's how much they didn't want women wearing heels. But then, 395 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: of course, at some point women were doing it in 396 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: mass and so the men gave up. And so then 397 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: suddenly it became like, well, we don't want those heels, 398 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: like those are stupid and so and why would we 399 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: want to be associated with those. 400 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 3: So it's like women adopted them, and that's why they 401 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 3: went out of fashion for men. That is so interesting, 402 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 3: isn't that investing? And so then you know, fast forward 403 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: hundreds of years. I'm sure I'm you know, egregiously skipping 404 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 3: over tons of history. 405 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 4: But then it's like the flapper era. 406 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: And the pin up era and they become this really 407 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: sexual thing up until now. 408 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 409 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 3: And the other part of that history that's interesting is 410 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 3: like such a image of the eighties was women taking 411 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 3: off their heels, putting on those like white sneakers to 412 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 3: go to work, right, and then changing into their heels. 413 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: I think of like Maria Cantwell, who is from my 414 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: state of Washington. Yeah, and she, yeah, she was like 415 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: the mom in heels and tennis shoes, and that was 416 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: the famous image of this politician right now. It's interesting 417 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: because they would never admit to wearing a ton of shit. 418 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: It's like I am in my heels and I keep 419 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: them on on. 420 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 421 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I bet you that the squad like that, 422 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 3: the aocs and the Alano Mars, they're probably just wearing sneakerts, 423 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: you know, I mean when they can. I know, there's 424 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: like a lot of issues about decor, like the whole 425 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: thing with John Fetterman or whatever. But you know, it 426 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: feels like it's a very dated idea that like heels 427 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: make the woman right. There's this idea that your shoes 428 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 3: have to be a certain way to represent a polished presentation, 429 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 3: and so it's not. I don't think heels are fashionable 430 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 3: the way they used to be, but I do think 431 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 3: that if you're traditional in your views, you kind of 432 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 3: have to embrace that look. 433 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it sends a message about your femininity. Still, yes, 434 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: we could sit here and do an entire episode unpacking 435 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: like what the size of the heels says about you, 436 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: because it's like, you know, too low, and it's dowdy 437 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: and too sensible at a la Hillary Clinton. 438 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 4: Too high. It's like Milania Trump. I don't know if 439 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 4: you remember. 440 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: There was one point when Donald Trump and Malania were 441 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: going to visit. 442 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 4: A hurricane site. 443 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: Oh yes, Florida, I believe, and she was wearing these 444 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: stilettos and the press was like, there's a literal hurricane, 445 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: you're gonna wear those stilettos and it made her seem unserious. 446 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's actually interesting because when you go to 447 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 3: a concert, like one of the things I remember noticing 448 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 3: when I went to see Beyonce for the first time. 449 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: That's a humble brag, lady, I've seen Beyonce twice. Is 450 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 3: that she's dancing an entire routine in the heels, and 451 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: I remember being. 452 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 2: Like, wow, that is so wild. I mean, she looks. 453 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 3: Amazing, and she does it in a way that makes 454 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 3: you feel like it's easy, which I know it is not. 455 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: So it just is also interesting that even in situations 456 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 3: which are really athletic, right, like a concert is an 457 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: athletic performance as much as it's a singing exercise, her 458 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 3: women still feel like that's part of the look, that's 459 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: part of the vibe. 460 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: I just find it so fascinating how these fashion objects 461 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: are viewed with so much symbolism, whether it's a single 462 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: white female like villain predator jabbing her lover or whoever 463 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: he was I can't remember in the eye, or like 464 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 1: strength and drawing attention to the fact that women in 465 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: a lot of ways still do have to be able 466 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: to balance every literally and. 467 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 4: Figure it words and in high heels, right, I mean exactly. 468 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: Well, So the interesting thing is, or at least to me, 469 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: the interesting question remains is like, what is Ron DeSantis 470 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: going to do with all this hubbub, Like, is he 471 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 3: admit it? There must be an actual record of his 472 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 3: height somewhere. 473 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 4: Right, Well, it's supposedly five eleven. I don't know. I mean, 474 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't Oh my god, it must 475 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 4: be so interesting. 476 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 3: It must be so uncomfortable to walk around on tiptoe 477 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 3: all the time. I don't envy a man who is 478 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 3: so insecure about his height who has to do that, 479 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 3: because as someone who's had to do a lot of 480 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: things in high heels, that is not a choice I 481 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 3: would make if I could avoid it. So he must 482 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: really be sad that he got himself into this. 483 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not defending Ronda Santas in anyway, but it's 484 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: a bit of an impossible situation for a man in 485 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: a position like that, because you can't admit to it. 486 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: You're trying to be seen as masculine and tough, and 487 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: that's why you're lifting your heels in. 488 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: The first place. 489 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: You know that there's a real actual truth to politicians 490 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: being taller. And yet he had to literally just like 491 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 1: stand there uncomfortably during this exchange and probably hope that 492 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: the mic was not going to come to him at 493 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: that moment. 494 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 4: But there was one funny thing that. 495 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: I discovered after we started texting when I couldn't sleep 496 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: late at night, which was I wanted to examine her 497 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: exact heels, and so I saw that they had been 498 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: in some article, and I like found the name of 499 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: the photographer the heels from the debate, and so I 500 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: went on to Getty Images and I searched this photographer 501 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: and then I found a couple of different images and 502 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: there was one close up shot of the exact high 503 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: heels and the really beautiful blue swede like royal blue 504 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: swede or dark darkish blue swede, and so then I 505 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: was examining them, and then I found these shoes that 506 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: were for sale that looked very very similar. And anyway, 507 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: I'm getting to a point, which is by my like 508 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: feminine analysis, they really look like four inch chields to me, 509 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: not five inch. 510 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: Chefs, which like checking her heel, I'm just so it. 511 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: I have a I mean, like this is inconsequential, like 512 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: who gives a shit? However, I just think it's funny 513 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: that in like a political dick measuring contest, she too 514 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: can play this game where she is exaggerating her right. 515 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I like that. That feels like a good 516 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: place to end it. Actually, this is in Retrospect. Thanks 517 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: for listening. 518 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 519 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 3: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 520 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: us at in retropod at gmail dot com or find 521 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 3: us on Instagram at in retropod. 522 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate, review us on 523 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you hate it, 524 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, which we 525 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: may or may not delete. 526 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 3: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 527 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 3: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 528 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 3: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 529 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 530 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 531 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 532 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: associate producer. 533 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our 534 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 3: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 535 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 536 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 3: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Cosperelli. Sound 537 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 3: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. We are your hosts, 538 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 3: Susie Bannacarum. 539 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 4: And Jessica Bennett. 540 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: We're also executive producers. For even more check out in 541 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: retropod dot com. See you next week.