1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: I Heart Radios Howstuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. In today, Santa Claus is coming to town. 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: That's right. This is an episode about Santa Claus. It's 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: also an episode about gods and our ideas about God's, 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: our god concepts and what that that all means. And 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: we are going to get into the question of whether 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: Santa is a god or not. I do want to 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: just have a couple of quick reminders here as we 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: dive into this one. First of all, uh, yes, this 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: episode it has to do with Santa, But if you 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: are attempted to listen to it outside of the holiday season, 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: no worries, because there's gonna be a lot of talk 15 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: that does not directly apply to Santa Claus. Sure, this 16 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: is an episode about the cognitive science of religion. And secondly, 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: we will be discussing the magic of Santa Claus in 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: this episode, so just keep that in mind, parents, if 19 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: you're listening with your children. Sure, alright, So most of 20 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: us would not say that Santa Claus is a god, right, 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: I mean, we we don't necessarily maybe we're not always 22 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: able to define God in a dictionary definition kind of way, 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: but you have an intuitive sense of how this word 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: is used, and for some reason, Santa Claus doesn't usually 25 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: fit into that definition, right, that intuitive definition. Right, even 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: if you are, let's say, a child who is a 27 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: Santa fundamentalist who believes in, you know, very literally in 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: Santa Claus, even then I don't think they would necessarily 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: confuse the the idea of Santa Claus with the idea 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: of say, the Judeo Christian deity. Sure, but on the 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: same hand, and then the same hand is, as we're 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: going to discuss in this episode, there are a lot 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: of similarity. So first of all, I want to just 34 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about Santa Claus, this magical being 35 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: the factor so heavily into Western holiday traditions as well 36 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: as traditions around the world that have been influenced by 37 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: the notion of the Great Jolly Old Elf. The exact 38 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: mythology is going to vary, of course, but but here 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: are just some of the often highlighted aspects of the 40 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: mythos Okay, first of all, Santa is at at the 41 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: very least extremely long lived, if not undying, immortal or eternal. 42 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: I mean he's been doing this thing for a long time, 43 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: that's right. Secondly, uh, Santa is I guess you would 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: say pan sofick or all knowing. He knows when you 45 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: were sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if 46 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: you've been bad or good. I'm not sure he's supposed 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: to know your inner thoughts, but he is privy to 48 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: an awful lot. I think a lot of conceptions of 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: Santa would even give him like inner psychic access. Yeah, 50 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: I mean if if Santa can, well, Santa can at 51 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: least see what you're doing when other people aren't around 52 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: to see what you're doing, and he sees what you're 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: doing in private, right that that seems like that's virgin on. 54 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's got to be like supernatural. They're oh yeah, absolutely. 55 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: It's not like he's just getting reports about your behavior, right. 56 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: He definitely has supernatural abilities. It just it comes down 57 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: to whether he can see inside your brain or not, 58 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: if he can see your thoughts at all, if he 59 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: can anticipate your actions based on that information. Also, he 60 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: receives mail from all over the world often through magical means, 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 1: or at least magical variations of the postal system. Uh. 62 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: And you know that that includes things like letters can 63 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: find him no matter where you mail them. You can 64 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: mail them at the zoo, you can mail them at home, 65 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: you can mail them through the chimney, things like that. 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: You know another thing that's very common about God's is 67 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: they tend to live in inaccessible places, if not in 68 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: a like extra dimensional, completely fundamentally inaccessible place, even when 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: they live on Earth, they tend to be at the 70 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: top of a mountain or at the bottom of the 71 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: ocean or something like. Yeah. I think that the mountaintop 72 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: God as as an excellent example because the modern sense, 73 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: what is the top of the world mountain? It is 74 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: the North Pole, of course, which is which is where 75 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: Santa Claus is said to reside, and it is an 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: insanely hostile environment um fighting off polar bears, and he 77 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: seems to reside there without any outside support aside from 78 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: the milk and cookies that he collects every year, and 79 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: of course the big ones. Santa can travel around the 80 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: entire world and visit every home in a single evening 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: every year. I remember thinking about this as a child 82 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: and thinking like, well, I don't know, that sounds really difficult, 83 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: but it's probably not impossible. Right. It seemed within the 84 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: stretching of plausibility to me, right, Like the magic makes 85 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: sense at first, and then you start thinking about the 86 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: magic and you're like, wow, this is some potent magic. 87 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: And then along the way, you know, you you introduce 88 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: some science fiction concepts, and you introduce some some elaborate 89 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: visions of the nature of time, and then okay, you 90 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: can create some versions of it that makes a little 91 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: bit more sense for hals. But at the very least, 92 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 1: Santa has amazing abilities to travel in ways that immortal 93 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: human cannot, of course, and there's there's much more than 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: that that we might add, based not only on beliefs, 95 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: but on films as well that features Santa Claus. So 96 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: he has been spotted in the presence of inhuman in 97 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: human beast men, as we discussed in our Crampus episode. Okay, 98 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: sometimes appears in the guise of Tim Allen and Goldberg. 99 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: That's true. Uh, also whole cogd and Whole cokean play 100 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: of Santa Claus. Oh I don't remember that. Definitely in 101 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: the movie Santa Sleigh which is you know, you can 102 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: probably guess what it's about. Also, Santa can communicate with 103 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: magical deer that also fly and enable him to fly. 104 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: He can control robots, as he has the power over 105 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: all toys and machines that might be argued to be toys. 106 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: This of course from Santa Claus versus the Martians uh 107 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: and imports in that Santa Claus is also drawn into 108 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: an interplanetary dispute. Santa associates known wizards such as Merlin. Uh. 109 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: If he's watched the old Mexican Santa Claus film, we 110 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: of course see him hanging out with Merlin and then 111 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: dealing with demons, engaging in direct conflict with at least 112 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: demons who serve the Christian Devil, if not the Christian 113 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: Devil himself. Oh no, yeah, he's straight up fights demons 114 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: in the movie, Oh that Devil. It's like it's like 115 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: Gandal versus the Bell Rock. It's Santa versus whatever that 116 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: demon's name is. Yes, I mean he gets into some 117 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: serious theological territory in that film. He also may or 118 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: may not play the saxophone when visiting Asian countries, which 119 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: isn't as remarkable, I guess, but it's a it's an 120 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: additional wrinkle in the myth of Santa. Now, we're obviously 121 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: not the first people to raise these parallels between the 122 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: Santa Claus that brings magical delight to children and all 123 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: over the place and uh and you know, basically gods 124 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: that are found throughout history all over the world. In fact, 125 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: I would say it's almost like a cliche joke at 126 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: this point to kind of uh a point out that 127 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: Santa Claus and God are in some sense interchangeable to 128 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: too many children. Yeah, my favorite example of this goes 129 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: back to the year two thousand and one of you know, 130 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: our shared favorite shows, The Simpsons. There's the episode where 131 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: Bart goes in to his bedroom and he kneels by 132 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: his bed, and then he begins to pray, and he says, quote, 133 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: dear Santa, if you bring me lots of good stuff, 134 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: I promised not to do anything bad between now and 135 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: when I wake up. Amen. It's the best kind of 136 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: Simpson's joke, because there's a joke in what he says 137 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: between now and when I wake up. But actually, the 138 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: even funnier part is the very concept of him saying 139 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: it that he's praying to Santa in the first place. Yeah. 140 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: And one of the things I always loved about it 141 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: is is that it takes me a second to catch it, 142 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, because it's not instantly clear that it's something 143 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary. I think I vaguely remember almost 144 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: doing this at one point as a child, even uh, 145 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: sort of at least subconsciously getting the idea confused. Uh. 146 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: You know, praying to Santa is only a few degrees 147 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: to the left of sending a letter to an entity 148 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: that can observe your every move, And it's not that 149 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: different from the idea of praying to this divine entity 150 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: that you're told about, say it's Sunday school. Yeah. And 151 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: so for the rest of the episode today, we're going 152 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: to be focusing on a paper that actually asks the 153 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: question of, well, in the terms of cognitive science of religion, 154 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: does Santa Claus actually qualify as a god or not? 155 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: Does he match the other things that would be called 156 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: a god within this uh, this sort of like scientific 157 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: academic framework. In particular, we're going to be looking at 158 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: an article by experimental psychologist Justin Barrett published in the 159 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: Journal of Cognition and Culture back in two thousand and 160 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: eight and and Barrett is an interesting character here. He 161 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: wrote a book titled Why Would Anyone Believe in God? 162 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: And he himself is a Christian, but he also sees 163 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: God as a byproduct of our mental architecture, and he 164 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: sees this in a way where these two concepts have 165 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: room to coexist. Yeah, he seems like an interesting figure 166 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: to me, Like, having read a bit about him, I 167 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: think he's in the spirit of those who would believe that, like, 168 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: the existence of God is not in conflict with naturalistic 169 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: explanations for religion. Yeah. Like, for instance, when he was 170 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: asked about about this potential conflict in in a two 171 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: thousand seven New York Times article titled Darwin's God, Uh, 172 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: he said the following quote. Christian theology teaches that people 173 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: were crafted by God to be in a loving relationship 174 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: with him and other people. Why wouldn't God then design 175 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: us in such a way as to find belief in divinity? 176 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: Quite natural? Suppose science produces a convincing account for why 177 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: I think my wife loves me? Should I then stop 178 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: believing that she does? Which I thought was a nice 179 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: answer to that question. Yeah, that's interesting, like that you 180 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: can you can put together all kinds of uh, coherent 181 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: scientific explanations for what the feeling of love is, why 182 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: this is an emotion that's generated by the primate b 183 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: and what kind of relationship it has to you know, 184 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: the evolutionary pressures that created our bodies and our brains. 185 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it doesn't make the love 186 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: not real. And so applying that to religion, you could say, okay, well, 187 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: here's a list of reasons we think that, like evolution, 188 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: natural selection could have shaped our brains to be geared 189 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: toward religion. Uh, unless so you have totally mechanistic, natural 190 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: type explanations for where religion comes from. And yet you 191 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: could still, under this theory potentially believe your religion to 192 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: be true, or multiple religions to be true. Yeah. Absolutely, 193 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: And I think that that that goes along with the 194 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: way we tend to approach religious concepts on this show. 195 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: I think that that we can certainly explain where they 196 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: come from. They can we can discuss, uh, you know, 197 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: how they evolve over time and the different influences wound 198 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: up in them. But at the same time we can 199 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: respect that yes, this this story, this myth, this idea, 200 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: this concept can still be very weighty and very important 201 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: to the individuals that value it. Well. Yeah, and and 202 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: that also though gets into another layer of complexity, which 203 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: is what it actually means to quote believe in a religion, 204 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: like can you believe in a religion? Does not necessarily 205 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: mean that you accept, say it's story of the creation 206 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: of the world as literally true, or that it suggests 207 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: or that it that it's propositions about metaphysics are literally 208 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: physically real. Yeah. Absolutely, and and and just to to 209 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: drive home a fact here again parental warning, Santa Claus 210 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: is not real in the sense that that Santa Claus 211 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: does not physically exist in the world. He's not actually 212 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: doing these these uh, these great deeds that we attribute 213 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: to him. But on the other hand, he is an 214 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: obviously an important cultural idea. And for my own part, 215 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: like I try and drive home the importance of mythology 216 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: and belief alongside the importance of you know, of a 217 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: fundamental reality I guess and scientific reality when talking about 218 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: these things with with my own son, Uh, you know 219 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: that currently he's really invested in the idea of Santa 220 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: But I am hopefully laying the groundwork that when Santa 221 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: falls from the lofty realm of of presumed magical reality. 222 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: He's not going to plumb it into the hellish depths 223 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: of lies and inaccuracies. He will instead fall into this 224 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: realm of mythological u and this this realm of magical 225 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: concepts that are valued by human culture. If that makes sense, Well, yeah, 226 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: Santa Claus is not physically real, but the magic of 227 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: Santa Claus is absolutely real. Like it's one of the 228 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: most powerful mind states that I can recall from my 229 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: entire life is the anticipation magic of the Christmas season 230 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: when I was young. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I also 231 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: remember sort of going through the struggle of then realizing, Okay, 232 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: Santa Claus is not objectively real, but then gradually then 233 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: growing to to realize that, okay, the idea of laws 234 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: can still be very important and can still be very 235 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: real in that sense, in the way the same way 236 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: that you know, one grows to learn that that fictional 237 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: characters and uh and uh and other stories can be 238 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: extremely important to us in a way that where there 239 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: is sometimes even more important than than flesh and blood 240 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: individuals and in very real events in the world. But anyway, 241 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: I want to get back to Barrett's work again. He's 242 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 1: he's working in the realm of cognitive science of religion, exploring, 243 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: in his words, quote why religious thoughts and actions only 244 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: occupy a small area in the vast landscape of possible 245 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: belief systems. And that's actually, I think a fascinating question, right, 246 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: Like religious beliefs could in theory be anything. Anything could 247 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: be a religious belief. Example, my friend Julian believes that 248 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: a breakfast crunch Rap Supreme that he got from Taco 249 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: bell in t is the creator of the universe and 250 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: only by its zesty cell ovation can he be saved 251 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: from annihilation. Why is it obvious this is a joke? Seriously, Like, 252 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: how come as soon as I said that, you knew 253 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: that I was kidding. You don't need to go like 254 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: look that up on Google and see if there really 255 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: is a sincere crunch Rap Supreme cult. You just immediately 256 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: know that people don't believe that sort of thing as 257 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: a sincere religion. And yet people believe in all kinds 258 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: of strange things, things that would of course seem strange 259 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: to those who don't share their religious beliefs. So why 260 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: is it that religious beliefs can and do involve all 261 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: kinds of strange things and narratives and propositions, and yet 262 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: there's actually a pretty constrained set of things even within 263 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: that fantastical landscape that would truly seem acceptable as a 264 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: god or a religious narrative. Like for some reason, thumbs 265 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: up to the immortal, all powerful person who reads your 266 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: thoughts as God, but thumbs down to the fast food 267 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: item as creator God. Right, So, like religious beliefs are 268 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: not usually constrained by things like the normal functioning of 269 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: physics or biology, but they are clearly constrained by something. 270 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,359 Speaker 1: If they weren't constrained by something, it wouldn't be obvious 271 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: that the crunch rap Supreme God was a joke. Yeah, yeah, 272 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: I think it is. It is fascinating that, yes, okay, 273 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: world religion involves so many wonderful concepts and so many 274 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: things that when you first introduced to them, they seem 275 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: strange and new and and and and and you know, 276 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: perplexing at times, and and we celebrate that on on 277 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: this show. And yet at the same time you know 278 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: that there's not a tremendous amount of difference between you know, 279 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: the details of this religion and the next religion. Well, yeah, 280 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: there is this funny tension where in one sense there's 281 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: incredible diversity and difference, but on the other hand, that's 282 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: all constrained within some kind of lane that we sort 283 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: of have a sense. For you, you might not be 284 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: able to define exactly what all the parameters are, though 285 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: Barrett's going to try to do that in a minute. 286 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: But you've got a sense that, like, for some reason, 287 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: the crunch rap doesn't work. That's just not a thing 288 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: people would believe in as God. You just know it automatically. 289 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: So what do people's actual beliefs in God's seem to 290 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: have in common? Barrett argues that the cognitive science of 291 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: religion has actually been pretty successful in identifying the most 292 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: common features of human religious beliefs, including what kinds of 293 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: concepts people most often find intuitive as God's uh, And 294 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: I guess we'll get into those in just a minute, 295 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: but first we should talk about some of his like 296 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: basic criteria for for what even constitutes the category. Right, 297 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: So the first one, and this is a big one, 298 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: is that multiple individuals must share a given idea for 299 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: it to be a genuine culture or religious concept. And 300 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: this is this is kind of a no brainer, but 301 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: it's important to note he gives it. This example, if 302 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: one person believes their lamp can grant wishes and control 303 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: the weather, that's not a god. That's just one person 304 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: who has a crazy idea about their lamp. But if 305 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of people share this idea about a given lamp, 306 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: it might just be a god concept. Sure uh, And 307 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: I agree that religion has a very strong and possibly 308 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: necessary social component, And yet I do think there are 309 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: some interesting counter examples that we might want to think about, 310 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: like hermetic mystics who live in isolation. They cut themselves 311 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: off from the world to develop private, personal, almost secretive 312 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: relationships with and understandings of God or of the gods. 313 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: And yet I think Barrett is still correct because we 314 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: don't usually grant these idiosyncratic, private mystical practices the status 315 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: of a religion unless they're supported by a wider structure 316 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: of belief shared by larger numbers of people. Like the 317 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: mystical traditions often tend to be a kind of monastic 318 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: offshoot or branch of larger religions with regular social adherents, 319 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: right right, like So, yes, while we may celebrate the 320 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: the ideas of say someone like a William Blake, you know, 321 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: who you know, certainly had his his own sort of 322 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: spin on what to on on what God was and 323 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: what the you know, the cosmology of of of the 324 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: universe happened to be. But we're probably not going to 325 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: buy into every detail of it. We're willing to sort 326 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: of stand a foot back and say like, Okay, he 327 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: has his own take on this, but I'm I'm still 328 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: keeping to the canon. You know, this is the extended 329 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: universe star Wars, And I'm more of a you know, 330 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: the Star Wars films, right, And and we accept Blake's 331 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: idiosyncratic ideas as religious because I think they grow out 332 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: of a larger existing religion. You know, they're they're like, 333 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: they're this kind of extended universe, the expanded universe of Christianity. 334 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: I guess one can also say that it helps in 335 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: these cases of other people do not start flocking to 336 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: your your extended universe concept of religion, because then you 337 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: stand the risk of being a heresy and or creating 338 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: a new, different religion. Right, Yeah, And that's another thought entirely. 339 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: It seems to me also that only widely distribute did 340 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: beliefs are likely to have stable contents. Because one member 341 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: of the religion tends to mediate any potential like deviation 342 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: from the orthodoxy by another member of the religion. But 343 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: private religious beliefs, they seem to be radically unstable. You know, 344 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: they're liable to change constantly. It's like asking how many 345 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: editors have access to a given UH wiki page, you know, 346 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: and if it's a if it's a Wikipedia page and 347 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: it's one that is UH that gets a lot of 348 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: traffic and has a lot of eyes on it, you know, 349 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: by and large you can assume that the information there 350 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: is probably going to be on the level or if 351 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: it's or if anything crazy is at it, it's going 352 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: to be taken out pretty quickly. You know, the the 353 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: the inquisition is going to move in on those heretics. Now, 354 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: if it is an off brand wiki and it has 355 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: like two editors or one editor, UH, then it's up 356 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: for grabs, right, right, Yeah, maybe one day somebody gets 357 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: a wild hair they're like, I'm gonna go in make 358 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: some major changes. Those changes probably stick, right, nobody comes 359 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: in to change it back. I mean, there's there's no 360 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: controlling influence, right, and then if it does change, you know, 361 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: when it does change over time, I think the idea 362 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: of a you know again, a high profile wiki, Wikipedia page, 363 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: or a a widely accepted god. Like, the changes are 364 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: gonna occur gradually and they're going to emerge from the 365 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: culture at large. Yes, yeah, having more adherents makes an 366 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: orthodoxy more generally stable, though of course they do still 367 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: change over time. It's just, uh, there's just less potential 368 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: for sudden radical change, I think, right, unless certain individuals 369 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: have a tremendous amount of power over it. And then 370 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: in that case, you know, you have like the ancient 371 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: adyption model where suddenly a ruler decides actually it's just 372 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: the sun disc and that's what we're doing now exactly. 373 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: But that was one guy and it didn't stick, right, Yeah, 374 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think ultimately I agree with Barrett that 375 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: if we're going with normal usage what people usually mean 376 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: when they talk about a religious belief, it needs to 377 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: be a distributed if it's held by a decent number 378 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,239 Speaker 1: of people. I'm not sure exactly what the number is, 379 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: but like private beliefs of a single person or a 380 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: handful of people, I probably don't count as religions yet. 381 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: All right. Number two, Religious concepts and god concepts can 382 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: spread due to quote features of human minds that transcend 383 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: cultural environmental variations unquote. And I'm assuming that's something like 384 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: the fear of death and the desire to avoid pain 385 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: might be such features as an example. Yeah, you're you're 386 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: correct about that. I mean, what he means is just 387 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: that it's obvious that influences on religion can be cultural 388 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: or social. Right, they can come from, you know, just 389 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: contingent facts about history and what else is going on 390 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: in the culture and politics and all that. But there 391 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: can be these What he's arguing is that there are 392 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: these internal factors as well. And this is what the 393 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion is about. It's about brains, right. 394 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: There are some religious beliefs that will be better adapted 395 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: to survive in the environment of the human primate brain 396 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: than other beliefs will be, regardless of cultural factors. Like, 397 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: some beliefs just fit like a puzzle piece with our instincts, 398 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: emotional tendencies, cognitive capacities, and others don't fit quite so well. 399 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a few simple, obvious examples. 400 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: Here's a clerkey in kind of one. You probably wouldn't 401 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: find a popular religious belief where you had to remember 402 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: a name for God. That was eighteen million silvers long, right, 403 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: because the cognitive constraints of memory put limits on what 404 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: types of God beliefs there are. You wouldn't expect a 405 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: concept of God to be successful if it just couldn't 406 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: be remembered. Here's another one. Due to uh, natural features 407 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: of of emotion and motivation and human brains, you wouldn't 408 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: expect to find beliefs in a God that you are 409 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: required to love and obey and who rewards you for 410 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: your love and obedience with eternal torture in the hell 411 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: of coconut crabs. You know that this just goes counter 412 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: natural instincts about motivation. Your your brain doesn't work that way. Yeah, 413 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: it has to be offering you something that that that 414 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: fits the mold for your your your biological life in 415 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: the mind that governs your behavior in that biological life. Yeah. 416 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, so I think that that's a pretty standard 417 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: thing of cognitive science of religion. There of course going 418 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: to be extremely powerful cultural factors determining what kind of 419 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: religious beliefs proliferate, but there are also some probably biological 420 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: neuroscientific factors that contribute as well. And speaking of biology, 421 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: the third UH requirement that Barrett lays out is that 422 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: some features of the human mind are products of human 423 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: biology as it interacts with the natural world, apart from 424 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: cultural environmental variations. So maybe the pain example from above 425 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: fits here, but there may be better examples. Oh sure, yeah, 426 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: I think the pain thing works great. I mean, this 427 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: is just saying like, our brains are shaped by our revolution. 428 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: Of course they are, uh, and they're filled with contents 429 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 1: from culture, but they still have some innate kind of 430 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: tendencies that are just like part of your body. That's 431 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: just how brains usually work. One of them is that 432 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: we're motivated to seek pleasure and avoid pain. You know. 433 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: It's like it's really hard to get around that standard 434 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: way that brains work. Alright. So a big concept in 435 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: God's of course, is that a god doesn't just need 436 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: to exist within a you know, within the minds of 437 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: a particular set of people. That God needs to be 438 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: able to travel, It needs to be accepted by new people, uh, 439 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: you know, across space and time. Yeah, needs memetics, survival advantages, 440 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: it needs to be able to spread and take root 441 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: in new environments. So we're going to take a quick break, 442 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: but when we come back We're going to get into 443 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: uh Barrett's ideas regarding the five features that a god 444 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: must have to successfully travel and this according to the 445 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion, and then we'll eventually get into 446 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: questions regarding Santa Claus himself. Thank alright, we're back, alright. 447 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: We're discussing how this paper about whether or not Santa 448 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: Claus actually counts as a god as usually defined by 449 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: the criteria of the cognitive science of religion. And this 450 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: psychologist Justin barretta has in this article, he lays out 451 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: five normal criteria that gods really have to have to 452 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: be successful and be thought of as God's. Alright, this 453 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: first one is gonna sound familiar, and that is that 454 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: God's must be counterintuitive, or more specifically, they have to 455 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: be minimally counterintuitive. And if this sounds familiar, it's because 456 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: we did a whole episode on it totally. It originally 457 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: aired in August. It was called the Gods Must Be Counterintuitive, 458 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: and we talked about myths and folk tales, including religious 459 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: characters and narratives with an eye towards the question of 460 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: what makes one successful and another unsuccessful in secular narratives 461 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: like why does everybody know the story of Cinderella, but 462 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: there is no Walt Disney's The Donkey Cabbage. Uh. We 463 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: talked about the Donkey Cabbages in this episode. It's a 464 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: fairytale that it just doesn't seem to work as well 465 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: as Cinderella because it's just crammed with count or intuitive stuff. 466 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you could think of tons of mundane, 467 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: boring stories that don't proliferate as well as Cinderella. But 468 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: in a in a religious context, or especially in ancient 469 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: religious context, why does one religion spread far and wide 470 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: and another one just never take off? Again? We should 471 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: acknowledge they're going to be hugely important other you know, 472 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: non brain based factors influencing this, like political and social contingencies. 473 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: You know, the religion of a powerful, successful empire tends 474 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: to spread, right, So there's no sense ignoring those factors. 475 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: Those are obviously very important, but are their factors just 476 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: in the human animal in the brain as well, And 477 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion tends to think, yeah, there are 478 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: probably a few factors in our brains about our brains 479 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: that make some religions more successful than others. And in 480 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: this episode from we discussed a line of research positing 481 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: that a major factor in the success of a narrative 482 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: or a religion, at least in the pre modern context, 483 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: was mnemonic resilience. That means how easily a story is remembered, 484 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: how easily a story survives in the memory. Most religion, 485 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: for most of history, of course, has been spread not 486 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: by holy texts or anything, but by word of mouth. Right, 487 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: You've got to spread a religion by telling people about it, 488 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: because most people in history have been illiterate. And so 489 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: what kinds of things are easier to remember when when 490 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: you're trying to spread them around the world. Well, psychologists 491 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: had already found evidence that people remember lists of items 492 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: better when that list contains one or two strange items 493 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: that don't seem to fit with the other items on 494 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: the list. Isn't that interesting? Yeah? Yeah, Like, if you're 495 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: at at a grocery store and you're you're spying on 496 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: what the person in front of you is buying, you're 497 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: gonna remember it if there's something that is completely out 498 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: of keeping with the rest out it that that doesn't 499 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: assemble in your head into a like a an easily 500 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: define herble meal. Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Like 501 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: it would seem to suggest by this principle that if 502 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: your looking at what somebody has in their cart, you'd 503 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: remember every item they have in their cart better if 504 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: it's like mostly normal groceries with a couple of really 505 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: weird things in there. Like if someone were buying pie crust, 506 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: whip cream, frozen strawberries, you think, oh, they make a 507 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: strawberry pie, and then you'd forget about it. But if 508 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: they're buying whip cream, pie crust, um, and then something 509 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: else like whole fish, whole fish exactly, you would be like, oh, 510 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: my god, they're making a fish pie with whip cream 511 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: on top and a Graham cracker crust. That is crazy, 512 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: and then you would be telling everyone you knew about it. So, 513 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: at least as far as lists go, lists of things, 514 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: it seems that it's easier to remember something that's like 515 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: mostly normal with a couple of weird elements than it 516 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: is to remember something that's totally bonkers or totally mundane um. 517 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: And so one of the papers we looked at in 518 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: this episode also applied this principle to the intuitive nous 519 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: of elements in a story like a like a folk 520 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: tale or a religious narrative. This was by Norn, zion, Atran, Faulkner, 521 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: and Shaler in Cognitive Science in two thousands six, called 522 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: Memory and Mystery the cultural selection of minimally counterintuitive narratives, 523 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: and so basically the short story is this paper found 524 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: some evidence to support the hypothesis that the kinds of 525 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: stories people remember best are minimally counterintuitive narratives. Not stories 526 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: that are straightforward and mundane, not stories that are crammed 527 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: with weird, outlandish stuff, but stories in the middle, sort 528 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: of toward one end, like stories that are mostly straightforward 529 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: with a small number of strange or fantastical counterintuitive elements. So, 530 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: for instance, a humanoid elephant is a great concept, an 531 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: old man who lives in the sky is a great concept. 532 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: In these concepts travel reasonably well. Yes, uh. And just 533 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: as a tie into this older episode, I remember one 534 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: thing we talked about in there. We talked about a 535 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: number of papers that Justin Barrett was a co author of. 536 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: You know, he does a lot in the cognitive science 537 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: of religion, including one it I still remember. I thought 538 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: it was very interesting. It was about anthropomorphization in the 539 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: psychology of religion. And this paper was published in the 540 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: journal Cognitive Psychology in nine and essentially it was by 541 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: Barrett and Kyle, and it found that people quote spontaneously 542 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: anthropomorphize God in their reasoning, even if doing so contradicts 543 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: their stated theological beliefs. So like when they don't remember 544 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: to avoid doing so, if you're not, they're reminding them 545 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: what they're previously stated theological beliefs are. People tend to 546 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: start thinking of God as like a normal human agent 547 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: with just like big supernatural powers but basically with a 548 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: human brain. Yeah, Like, I can definitely relate to this 549 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: because I I tend to think when I, when I, 550 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, think about concepts of of a monotheistic deity, 551 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: I think of, uh, you know, something more surreal or psychedelic. 552 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,479 Speaker 1: I think of, you know, like some sort of like 553 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: triangular non physical entity. Or I think of you know, 554 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: something that is uh, you know, something where the you know, 555 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: the God is singular, but also all these other gods. 556 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: You know. I throw a lot of concepts at it, 557 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: but like like the ground of being, you know, that 558 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing and stuff like that. But if I'm 559 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: not thinking too hard about it, if I'm saying, just 560 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: like listening to somebody at church talk, or I'm reflecting 561 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: on some you know, just on the nature of God, 562 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: I'll fall back into the sky daddy, um, where it's 563 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: like an old bearded man in the sky reaching out 564 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: his finger to touch the living that sort of thing. Yeah, 565 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: and then I'll have to be like, oh wait, no, no, no, 566 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 1: that's not what I've been filling my head with. Uh, 567 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: it's a you know, space triangles. Yeah. And so Barrett 568 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: and Kyle find that this tendency is very common. They say, 569 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, even if you think of God is like 570 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: the ground of being or the force or even you know, 571 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: to get into a specific religion, like in in specific monotheisms, 572 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: you might find people very carefully calibrated theologians type points 573 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: of view, you know, where they they actually have meticulously 574 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: formed beliefs about like what God can and can't know, 575 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: and what how the mind of God works and all 576 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But like if you just kind 577 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,959 Speaker 1: of get them thinking without reminding them that that's what 578 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: their stated beliefs are, they just sort of start thinking 579 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: about God like a person with a human brain. Yeah. 580 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: And this can also be like super irritating if you're 581 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: you're trying to cultivate an idea of the Almighty as 582 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: being say, gender neutral or even being feminine as opposed 583 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: to masculine, and then when you're not thinking about it, 584 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: you fall right back into to it being a you know, 585 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: traditional masculine, uh, you know, patriarchal being. Oh yeah, I mean, 586 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: I guess there's that tendency to probably pushing on like 587 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: specific personality attributes and stuff, and not just like the anthropomorphization, 588 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: though they do say the authors here say that constantly 589 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: reminding people about their own state of theological beliefs can 590 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: help attenuate the anthropomorphization impulse. Right, you know, if you 591 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: you're like, hey, remember what you said, you said you 592 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: believe God was like this, Like that'll that'll obviously will 593 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: help some cut down on it. But they suggest here 594 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: that this may indicate a strong tendency to anthropomorphize all agents, 595 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: no matter what kind of being they are. Dogs become humans, 596 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: computers become humans, the world spirit becomes a human. Everything 597 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: that appears to have any kind of independent action or 598 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: is believed to have any kind of independent action basically 599 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: just becomes a human. Well that's that's the theory of mind, right, 600 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: Like it's there so we can understand primarily what our 601 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: fellow humans are doing. But then it it can act, 602 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, it can actually be very helpful and trying 603 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: to figure out what non human animals are are wanting 604 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: to do. I was reading a little bit about this 605 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: in terms of veterinary science, and you know, like there's 606 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: the older tradition of saying like, don't or those beyond 607 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: veterinary science and science in general, just the study of animals, 608 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: and say, like, there's the idea of like, you know, 609 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: don't think of it as as a person, don't anti 610 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: anthropomorphize it at all, don't you know, don't think about 611 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: its feelings. And then there's someone say, well, actually, you know, 612 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: we should, we should use theory of mind to do 613 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: a say a certain degree to a safe degree, uh, 614 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: to figure out what is going on in the minds 615 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 1: of of of an animal. But then if you're anthropomorre 616 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: vising everything, if you are, in the words of creative 617 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: writing a teacher I once had, if you anthropomorphize like 618 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: a mad god, then that's where we get into problems 619 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: or and also that's where we end up creating some 620 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: of the more uh, you know, inspired concepts in human 621 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: culture as well. Yeah, totally uh, I guess, so to 622 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: bring it back. Yes, as Barrett says, according to the 623 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion, it seems true that God's must 624 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: be in some way counterintuitive, ideally minimally counterintuitive, you know, 625 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: having some unusual aspects like maybe say, being invisible and 626 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: all powerful, but then I have to be all powerful. 627 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: There are also minor gods that still qualify as God's right, 628 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: invisible and having some kind of non normal powers or attributes, right, 629 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean, basically I like to play the game of like, 630 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: just keep adding counterintuitive aspects to a particular deity and 631 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: decide at which point it's silly and no longer intimidating, 632 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: like a like a a strange tall man comes out 633 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: of the shadows and gives me commandments. So that's great, 634 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: all right, Let's add that he has the head of 635 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: a dog. Okay, even better. Hybrids are a huge part 636 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: of religious concepts. Now he's got crab claws. Then he 637 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: has crab claws, right, and then okay, it's one's a 638 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: crab claw and one is a hand puppet. Uh. And 639 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: so for like, every time you add something else to 640 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: it becomes a little bit more ridiculous and a little 641 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: harder to to take um and that that seems to 642 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 1: be part of the whole. Minimally counterintuitive. Yes, but they've 643 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: got to at least be counterintuitive, because if you say, like, 644 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: this is my buddy Jeff, he's god. He doesn't have 645 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: anything unusual about him, like there are no he doesn't 646 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: have any powers. He's not invisible, he can't fly, he's 647 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: not omniscient, omnipotent, nothing like that. He's just Jeff. That's 648 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: not that nobody thinks that's a god. Now, Jeff would 649 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: probably at least pass the next one. This is number 650 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: two on Barrett's list. God's must be intentional agents. Barrett 651 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: uses the example of two minimally counterintuitive concepts, an invisible 652 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: potato versus a talking potato. Okay, both minimally counter intuitive, 653 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: but one works better as a god than another. Yeah, 654 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: only the latter is viable candidate for godhood because it 655 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: implies agency. A god must have agency and work as 656 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: an intentional agent. Now, this concept does make me think 657 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: about ideas of say, slumbering gods, dead gods, and mindless gods, 658 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: at least in fiction such as you know, Lovecrafts as 659 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: is off comes to mind. Oh you you got me 660 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: on as a off recently, but I looked it up. 661 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: It's as a thought, as a thought, sorry to correct 662 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: that that would make yeah, it would have the Egyptian 663 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: thought aspect to it. Yeah, yeah, well as as a 664 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: thought or as his off. He doesn't care because he 665 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: has he's mindless. He doesn't even know his own name. 666 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: He's just swirling chaos in the middle of the universe, 667 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: nawing on himself while uh, you know, blind monsters play flutes. 668 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: But like this would be an example of First of all, 669 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: it's a god that nobody actually worships. It is a 670 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: fictional deity, but is at least it is at least 671 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: the concept of a deity that is mindless. Yes, now, 672 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: I think this is another reason that, like the crunch Rap, 673 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: Supreme Aim could not be a viable god, because it's 674 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: essentially as a thought of them the mindless of being 675 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: at the center of the chaotic universe. Exactly. It's an 676 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: inanimate object that symbolizes primordial chaos, can't talk, has no intentions, 677 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: isn't going to do much right, all right, we're gonna 678 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: jump in here and take a quick break, but we'll 679 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: be right back. Thank And we're back. All right, So 680 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: let's move on to the third requirement. God's must possess 681 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: strategic information. So, in other words, the gods or God 682 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: must have some ideas, some advice, or some secret knowledge 683 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: that can improve your life here on earth. Perhaps it's 684 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: a set of laws, a revelation that there are no laws, 685 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: or knowledge about the coming end times. Or the God 686 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: must have privilege knowledge he knows what you've done, or 687 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: the nature of your inner thoughts, or what will happen 688 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: to you in the future. Yes, now, I think it's 689 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: very important to note that this does not mean the 690 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: same thing as like omniscient, which would be an omniscience 691 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: all knowing. No, would be a form of strategic information, 692 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: to be like the ultimate form of strategic information. But 693 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: the omniscience is a property only some God's possess. Right. 694 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: The strategic information idea here just requires that a god 695 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: knows something valuable or relevant. For example, the version of 696 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: God depicted in the Garden of Eden's story does not 697 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: appear to be all knowing. Like he walks in the garden, 698 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: he has limited perspective. It is possible to at least 699 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 1: temporarily hide from him, and yet he clearly has access 700 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: to important information that Adam and Eve do not have, 701 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: right though, I also always wondered if he was just 702 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 1: kind of like a you know, sky daddy, playing dumb, 703 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: but sort of trying to see what his creations are 704 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: gonna say. You know, like when you walk in and 705 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: you're like, all right, who smeared their food on this window? 706 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: You know who smeared the food on the window. But 707 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: you're you're asking the question because you want to have 708 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: a civilized discussion about it, and and and and you know, 709 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: and in doing so, uh, you know, prevent more or 710 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: food sparriage from happening. Sure, well, I think that's a 711 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: valid interpretation too. I think the other one is more straightforward, 712 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: but it could be the one. Um uh So. Barrett 713 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: points out that it's important that this information is relevant 714 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: to humans in particular. Right quote, Suppose a certain minimally 715 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: counterintuitive agent only knows about Himalayan micro invertebrates, such a 716 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: being is unlikely to gain traction as a noteworthy entity 717 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: and rise to the status of God. You know. And 718 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: that's specifically because this entity does not have any information 719 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: that is useful in any way relevant to humans like 720 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: they and and they don't have to be helpful, right, 721 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: God's can be mean, Gods can be bad. Beings with 722 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: strategic information could be helpful allies or dangerous enemies, as 723 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: say some of the Greek gods often are like Poseidon. 724 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: You know he wants to wreck your ship and get 725 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: revenge on you. He's still God, al right, Next we 726 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: have number four. This is a big one. God's must 727 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: be able to act in the human world in detectable ways. 728 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: Barrett says, quote an all saying all knowing statue that 729 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: does nothing but season knows is not worth transmitting. Gods 730 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: have to do stuff and be known by that stuff, 731 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: or at least to have done something. Otherwise, it's just 732 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: not a concept that's going to travel sure or to 733 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: be likely to potentially do something in the future. Yeah, 734 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: a god that has no interaction whatsoever with the world 735 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: usually isn't going to form a religion. People aren't have 736 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: beliefs about that core like, for instance, think about UFO religions, right. 737 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: They tend to involve ideas of say, well, okay, the 738 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: the aliens came in an ancient time, or the Aliens 739 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: are speaking to us now, or the aliens will come 740 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: and save our our you know, dying culture. But if 741 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: your your UFO religion says the aliens are out there, 742 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: they've never come. Uh, they've never communicated with us and 743 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: they never will come, but we worship them as a god. 744 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. Why am I? What am 745 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: I getting out of this relationship? Yeah? Now again, this 746 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: is one where I would say that none of these 747 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: rules are things where you can of no possible exceptions, because, 748 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: like I can think about I guess, like in the 749 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: Gnostic religions, there are some types of God that are 750 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,439 Speaker 1: like very very removed. You could still say that their 751 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: actions have some like downstream effects or like very important 752 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: downstream effects on the world. But there are like some 753 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: types of gods or godlike type concepts that are at 754 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: least a very distant remove from the goings on of 755 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 1: the world. But often in those cases they're like sort 756 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: of layers below them who do interact more directly. Right, 757 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: Or in some cases, they're more esoteric variations of a 758 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: god that is worshiped more popularly in a slightly different 759 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: form Alright, let's move on to five. Gods must be 760 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: capable of motivating behaviors that reinforce belief. Yes, behaviors such 761 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: as ritual and prayer, and they need to be reinforcing behaviors. 762 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: For for instance, Barrett makes the example that the ritual 763 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: can't promise to produce eight foot children because there will 764 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,919 Speaker 1: be no eight foot children around them to reinforce this. Um. Now, 765 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: rituals that promise happiness, um contentment, even financial gain, these 766 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: at least you can make and argue that, Look, here's 767 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: the proof of the ritual working, right, Yeah, I mean, 768 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be clear proof. I mean, 769 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: as long as there could be some kind of ambiguous 770 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: way of interpreting that the rituals are having an effect. Uh, 771 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: then I think that's still okay. But yeah, he's saying that, 772 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 1: like the ritual can't guarantee results that it won't actually deliver. 773 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: Right if you say, if you tithe at to my 774 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: new religion, you will live forever, Like that's that's gonna 775 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: bite you in the butt eventually, and then your religion 776 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: is gonna fall apart. But it is funny how far 777 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: out on the limb you can kind of get with this, 778 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: Like as long as there's some kind of ambiguity where 779 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: you're not really sure or maybe you don't see it 780 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: not working for other people or something like there, you know, 781 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: they're the prosperity gospel is incredibly pop piller, But I 782 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: think that there's enough ambiguity that you don't necessarily know 783 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: what's going on with everybody else who's trying it. There's 784 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: enough wiggle room to say, like, you're not quite doing 785 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: it right. Right. It inspires a certain level of dishonesty 786 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: among the people that are practicing it. And then at 787 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: the center of it, you generally have an individual that's 788 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: perpetrating a con job like it is about the appearance 789 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: of wealth. And then of course they're they're you know, 790 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: in most of these cases, they are they're they're leaching 791 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: money right there, they are financially benefiting from the scenario. 792 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,320 Speaker 1: And then you it's not like you have to carry 793 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: this out forever. You know, it's a con games have 794 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: a beginning in an end usually right. Yeah, But then 795 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 1: of course there are again, even if you're only understanding 796 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: religion in a totally naturalistic way, there are all kinds 797 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: of benefits that religious rituals can deliver. They can deliver 798 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,879 Speaker 1: like maybe you know, strong tightly bonded communities with people 799 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: who help each other they can deliver a sense of 800 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: happiness and contentment. All all kinds of like psychological and 801 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: social benefits could be perfectly naturalistic outcomes of religious beliefs 802 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: and practices. Right So even if you know, say, you know, 803 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: Prosperity Gospel Church, which is is you know, vilified to 804 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: a large extent and for in many cases for a 805 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: good reason, you could still have that kind of a 806 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: church community that would have a lot of benefits to 807 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,399 Speaker 1: the members of that community. Likewise, you could have, uh, 808 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,479 Speaker 1: you know, something positive and beneficial sort of emerge out 809 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: of a more restrictive totalitarian belief system, Like maybe there's 810 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: some concept within that religion that resonates and works and 811 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: then the the individuals practicing it run off and you know, 812 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: start something new with that that concept that actually works 813 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: for them. Arguably an example of this I've I've heard is, 814 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, in Scientology there are members of Scientology or 815 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: former members of Scientology who have claimed that, you know, 816 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: they don't care for the organization or some of the 817 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 1: culture there, perhaps, but they like the rich wells, they 818 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: like some of the the technological um ideas, and some 819 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: of the practices that are utilized. They see value in them, 820 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: and they attempt to spend them off into something separate 821 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: from them. The central Church of scientology. Oh yeah, I 822 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: mean ESPEC. The lower levels of scientology are are almost 823 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: in some ways indistinguishable from like a self help program 824 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: that's basically designed to like give you confidence and motivation 825 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,399 Speaker 1: to take steps to achieve your goals and that kind 826 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: of thing. And you know, with stuff like that, you 827 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: can certainly see how just having a program that's supportive 828 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: and telling you to move confidently towards the things you 829 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: want could be perceived as very helpful, could actually be 830 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: very helpful in producing motivation for that kind of behavior, 831 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: even if it also implies things about you know, like 832 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: bombs from space and aliens in you and ghosts and 833 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, as long 834 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: as all that stuff is minimally counterintuitive. I mean, because 835 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: that's the thing does seem maximally counterintuitive. But I don't know, 836 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. I sometimes, at least I I see 837 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,760 Speaker 1: people criticize. You see this the thing with with any religion, 838 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: someone is liable in one religion, they're liable to criticize 839 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: the other by saying that's crazy, that's wonky. How can 840 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,359 Speaker 1: you believe in that and uh, without actually looking at 841 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: the details of their own belief system, and um, yeah, 842 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean that's just that's just part of it. But yeah, 843 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,839 Speaker 1: it's what you've come to accept as normal. And this 844 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: is the thing actually about that's come up in in 845 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: the theory about being counterintuitive, you know, religions needing counterintuitive elements. 846 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: Is that, uh like, as you get used to a religion, 847 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: the elements that used to be counterintuitive become less counter 848 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: they're becoming and then you need the next spin on it, right, 849 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: you need the mash up. Yeah, all right, everybody, we're 850 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: gonna have to go ahead and break right here. This 851 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: one went long. Yeah, this one went a bit a 852 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: little bit long, So we're gonna have to bust into 853 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,799 Speaker 1: two episodes. Uh, certainly there's gonna be more Santa in 854 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: the second half than in the first half. In the meantime, 855 00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 856 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind and go to Stuff to Blow 857 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com and that'll send you where you 858 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: need to go. You can find us anywhere you get 859 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. Just make 860 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: sure you rate, review, and subscribe. That really helps us 861 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: out huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer 862 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in 863 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 864 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: to suggest topic for the future, just to say hi, 865 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,919 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 866 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 867 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radios. How Stuff Works. For more 868 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio is at the heart Radio app, 869 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.