1 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Guess what Will? 3 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: What's that Mango? 4 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: Did you know that a chicken can run as fast 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: as nine miles per hour? Like if you put them 6 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: on a leash, they could be running companions for you 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: on your next half marathon. 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 2: I did not know that. Despite the number of times 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: I have put them on leashes and run, I've never 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: never actually tracked them. So it's a you know, I 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: do have a couple of chickens that could easily outrun me. 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: I mean like they're really especially potato chick, our fastest chicken. 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: Oh she flies. 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, chicken speed is just one thing I learned 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: from the wonderful author Si Montgomery's new book, What the 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: Chicken Knows. There's so much incredible stuff in there, from 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: how chickens can find the midpoint of a geometric shape 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: on the ground, like if you put them in a 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: square or triangle, they can find the exact midpoint. Chickens 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: go wild when they see red dots, So there was 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: a point when farmers used to outfit their birds in 22 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: tiny rose colored spectacles so that they couldn't see the 23 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: red and also chickens can give their owners distinct names. 24 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: It is really wild. Anyway, I found this book so fascinating. 25 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: I called sy up and asked her when you come 26 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: on part Time Genius and talk chickens with me? And 27 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: she said yes. She is so lovely, and even though 28 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: I don't love chickens, by the end of the conversation, 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to go pet a hen, so let's dive in. 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: So it's such a pleasure. 31 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: To have you on Part Time Genius. I'm so thrilled. 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: I've got to say, I love this book so much, 33 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: and I am a huge fan of you know, I 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: grew up reading James Harriet and like Gerald Darrell and 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: all these naturalists authors and the sweet way they write. 36 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: And I was so charmed by just the first page. 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: I was just going to read a little bit from 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: it because it's so funny. You say, just beyond the 39 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: narrow space between the grass and the machines, metal undercarriage 40 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: movement catches your eye. Scaly reptilian yellow feet, heavily armed 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 1: with long pointed claws, and just above the toes, curved 42 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: knife sharp spurs are purposefully striding towards you at face level. 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: It feels just like that scene from Jurassic Park. And 44 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: then you go on to talk about how a chicken 45 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: or rooster is approaching. And I'm just going to say, 46 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: I'm so delighted by this book and thank you so 47 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: much for being on this program. 48 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: Wow, you make me feel like a million dollars. But 49 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: I suspect you do that with all of your guests. 50 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: So tell me, how is it that you came to 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: this whole world of writing about animals. 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 3: Well, I think from before I could even talk, these 53 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 3: were kind of my people. When I was real little, 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 3: well it's less than two. I was born in Germany 55 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: and my parents took me to the zoo and I 56 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: broke free of their hands. And when they found me, 57 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: I was in the hippopen at the Frankfurt Zoo. 58 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: In the hippopen. Oh my gosh. 59 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: So my mother never got over that, but it bothered me, 60 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: and it didn't bother the hippos either. I just felt 61 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: comfortable around animals. And when I could finally find you know, 62 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: when I found my voice, when I could speak English, 63 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: I told my parents about my existential problem. They were 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: so busy trying to turn me into a little girl. 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 3: I had no interest in this I was really a horse, 66 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: So my mother went to the pediatrician and he told 67 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: her that I would soon get over it, which I 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: did when I realized I was actually a dog. So 69 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 3: there was nothing to be done except to get me 70 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 3: a dog to teach me how to be a dog. 71 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: And so my first friend, my only sister, my most 72 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: important mentor before I ever went to school, was a 73 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 3: Scottish terrier named Molly, and I would follow her around. 74 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 3: I was aware, even as a small child, we know 75 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: that animals have powers we do not. We know that 76 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: they can hear things above and below the threshold of 77 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: human hearing, that they smell an entire world that we're 78 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 3: oblivious to. That they can often, you know, run faster 79 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: than us, so they can do things like fly. So 80 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: I wanted to be part of these superpowers. And I 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: have spent my life essentially following Molly's lead and trying 82 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: to learn the secrets of the animals and learning to 83 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 3: recognize each of them as potential teachers. 84 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: I love the title of this new book, what the 85 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: Chicken Knows, And you're actually learning from your chickens, not 86 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: just learning about them. So did you have that perspective 87 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: from the very beginning of this project, or was it 88 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: something that you realized as you were writing. 89 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: When I was living this book, I didn't know i'd 90 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 3: be writing about it because it was taking place in 91 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 3: our barnyard. This was my everyday life, and it was 92 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: years later. At first I wrote a book called Birdology, 93 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: and my original title for it was birds are Made 94 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: of Air, And what it wanted to look at was 95 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: what makes a bird a bird? And I wrote about 96 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: my chickens in that book, along with chapters on cassowaries, 97 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: on hummingbirds and hawks and pigeons and parrots and others, 98 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 3: each examining another aspect of birdiness that makes a bird. 99 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 3: But I realized that chickens need their own book. Now 100 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: so many people are getting chickens. A lot of folks 101 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: got chickens during the pandemic, and now as egg prices 102 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: are rising, people are wanting to have their own chickens 103 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: as well. And eggs are wonderful, and I eat eggs. 104 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: I only eat eggs from chickens who I personally know 105 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 3: and don't object. But the eggs are the least of it. 106 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 3: The honor of getting to know these chickens as individuals. 107 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 3: The honor of being invited into the chicken universe, almost 108 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 3: as an honorary chicken. That is the real joy point 109 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: for me of having these birds around. 110 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: I love that you refer to it as the chicken universe, 111 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: and I was gonna mention that because it's such a 112 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: joyous perspective of sort of being integrated in their whole world, 113 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: and there's so many fascinating facts. But I think part 114 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: of what was interesting to me about this book was 115 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: you start by mentioning that a lot of people have 116 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: the wrong perspective of chickens, that they actually think that 117 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: they're dumb creatures, that all they do is sort of 118 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: like peck and roam. But you talk about how brilliant 119 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: they are, So okay, can you tell me a little 120 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: bit about how you started to realize that they were 121 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: thinking sort of bigger than just the way we perceive them. 122 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 3: Well, I think most animals, you can just expect that 123 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: they are more complex, more fascinating than anyone expected. I think, 124 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 3: particularly for food animals, people tend to minimize their intelligence, 125 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 3: their emotions, et cetera, to excuse the fact that we 126 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 3: make them our slaves and then eat them. So when 127 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: I went into the chicken universe. I went in with 128 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: beginner's mind. It was just like here, I am, I'm 129 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: open to whatever you're gonna teach me. Well, from the 130 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: moment they arrived, they just shocked and thrilled me at 131 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 3: every turn. When my babies first came, I had visited 132 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: them as fluffy little chicks at my friend's house, our 133 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: friend Fretchen Morn, who gave them to us as a 134 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: barn warming present. 135 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: I love that phrase, barn warming. I thought that was 136 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: so cute. 137 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: Well, it does warm up the bar, and they're wearing 138 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: down coats after all. But when we brought them home, 139 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 3: I worried that, since our chicks were going to free range, 140 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: that they'd get lost. And the reason I worried about 141 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: this was that as a child, I had gotten lost 142 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: in my own backyard. We moved a lot. I got disoriented. 143 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: Why should I expect a chicken to be so much 144 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 3: more intelligent than I had been? And you know, the 145 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 3: time I got lost, I think I was in like 146 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 3: sixth grade. The chickens instantly knew where they lived, and 147 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 3: they went out roaming, and at the end of the day, 148 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: as it began to get dark, they came right back inside. 149 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 3: I was astonished. And further, how they figured out the 150 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: boundaries of our property I do not know. There is 151 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: a low stone wall between us and our neighbors, and 152 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: on the other side there's a road. I mean, you'd 153 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: think maybe they wouldn't want to cross the road, because 154 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 3: why would the chicken cross the road? But this persisted 155 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: for years. They would not jump over that low stone wall, 156 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 3: although they would jump over much larger objects elsewhere on 157 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 3: the property and they could fly. What happened next was 158 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 3: we got new neighbors, and there were these two wonderful 159 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 3: little girls, and from the day they first showed up, 160 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 3: they fell in love with our seven hundred and fifty 161 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: pound pig we lived ur team and died of his 162 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 3: old age in his sleep, and our border collie and 163 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 3: our flock of hens. And pretty soon the little girls 164 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: were over our house every day, and we were over 165 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: their house every day. And then the chicken's behavior changed. 166 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: Then they annexed their property. They began to use the 167 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 3: neighbor's yard as their own because they figured out that 168 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: our two families had essentially become one unit. And they 169 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: figured it out before we figured it out. 170 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: I love that, you know, one of the things we 171 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: did on part time Guenis a few months ago now 172 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: was we did this twenty five greatest Ideas in Science 173 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: and things that kind of delighted us, and we found 174 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: the study that showed that chickens preferred people with symmetrical faces. 175 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: And I've actually never thought about the possibility that chickens 176 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: might be able to like think about us or you know, 177 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: that they'd be good at recognizing faces, but you know, 178 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: both of people, but also of chickens, and I was curious, 179 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, why is this such a useful ability to 180 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: be able to recognize other chickens? 181 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 3: Oh well, for a chicken, community is everything. And you've 182 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 3: heard about the pecking order in chickens and it just 183 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 3: sounds like they're meanly pecking each other mindlessly, stupidly, rudely. 184 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: But the pecking order is really about order and it's 185 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: not so much about pecking. A lot of pecking did 186 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: not actually happen with our flock, the ladies. They were 187 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 3: very ladylike and it was largely a feminist utopia until 188 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 3: we do have a few roost But for them, it's 189 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 3: really important to know who's everyone in your group and 190 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 3: who do you get along with every night, each hen 191 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 3: chooses her best friend to roost next to, or her 192 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 3: two best friends. Huh, these kinds of things we can 193 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 3: easily relate to, because for humans this is essential as well, 194 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: and I have seen it quoted widely, although I haven't 195 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: actually read the study that chickens can recognize one hundred 196 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: different faces, and they definitely recognize our faces as well 197 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: as the faces of other chickens. And your point about faces, 198 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 3: you know, there's different ways to recognize an individual. There 199 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: has been work done showing that they are not just 200 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 3: looking at the general gestalt or the shape or the 201 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: clothing or the feathers of their friends. They are specifically 202 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 3: looking at the faces. And the scientists who figured this 203 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 3: out had a blast doing things like putting different colored 204 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: feathers on some chickens, and you know, changing their tails 205 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 3: around or making them wear little sweaters. But the minute 206 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 3: you start messing with their face, if you start giving 207 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 3: them a fake comb or you make them wear sunglasses, 208 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: just like a person donning a Halloween mask, it becomes 209 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 3: far more difficult to recognize your friend, and I love it. 210 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: They also gaze into the faces of their friends and 211 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: their enemies and new acquaintances to get to know them. 212 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: All right, We've got so much more chicken talk coming 213 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: right up after the short break. Stay tuned, and we're 214 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: back with author Si Montgomery. One of the things that 215 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: really surprised me was that, you know, chickens are different 216 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: from a lot of other birds and definitely from humans, 217 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: in that as soon as they hatch, they are very capable. 218 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: And I was curious, like, they've got all these instincts. 219 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: They can see, they can walk, they can run, Like, 220 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: what is the evolutionary reason for this? 221 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 3: Well, chickens come from the jungle fowl and Asian spa 222 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: who nests on the ground. So if you nest in 223 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: a tree, you can be like a little hummingbird and 224 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 3: be all naked and helpless and not even open your 225 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 3: eyes for days and just gape your beak and hope 226 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 3: your parents are going to show up and help you. 227 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 3: But if you nest on the ground, predators are going 228 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: to come and get you. And that is known as 229 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: the precocial strategy. And we've heard of precocious children, you know, 230 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: and all ground nesting birds that I know of are precocial. 231 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: And it makes quite a lot of sense to be 232 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 3: able to get up and get out of there if 233 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 3: predators are coming your way. 234 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: I also really love the scenes of like all these 235 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: little chicks walking through your sweater and playing on your 236 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: keys as you're typing, and it was just such a 237 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: sweet image. 238 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I loved it so much. But it 239 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 3: was a downside to it. And besides the fact that sometimes, 240 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: you know, it would poop in my hair, and that 241 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: was that they're fluff. This is when I would order 242 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 3: baby chicks in the mail and they would arrive still 243 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 3: egg shaped and run around. When they grow their feathers, 244 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: each feather is encased in a shaft of carroten, which 245 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 3: is the same stuff as our fingernails, and when the 246 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: feather would bloom and burst forth, the carroten would essentially 247 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 3: shatter and it filled the office my computer, my books, 248 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 3: my printer, my keyboard, everything with this thick layer of dust. 249 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 3: And eventually my computer choked to death on it, and 250 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 3: my friend came and took it apart and instantly saw 251 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: this like thick layer of dust inside. They figured out 252 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: exactly what we're wrong, and they were able to fix it. 253 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: But it really did make a terrible mess, but. 254 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: It wasn't worth it because I got to be with 255 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 4: them like all my waking hours, and they got to 256 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 4: know me, and very soon their little personalities began to 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 4: emerge right away. 258 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: You can tell the ones who are bold, the ones 259 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: who are shy, the ones who are fast, the ones 260 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 3: who are slow, and you have this you know relationship 261 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: that can go on for you know, five six, seven years. 262 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 3: Some chickens live into their teens. It's very very rare, 263 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 3: but it's a lasting relationship. And knowing someone going back 264 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: to their chickhood just really enriches your friendship the same 265 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: way as knowing someone from their childhood. 266 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about ordering chicks, because 267 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: I was really fascinated by the idea of looking through 268 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: these catalogs, almost the same way a gardener looks through 269 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: the gardening catalogs that come through. 270 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, the chicken catalogs show you all different kinds 271 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: of chickens. Chickens with poofy top knots, and chickens with 272 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 3: fluffy feathers on their feet, and tall, skinny chickens and 273 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 3: some with tails that cascade off the perch down to 274 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 3: the ground twelve feet long, and chickens they call easter 275 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: egg chickens who lay eggs. Some of them are green, 276 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: some of them are blue, some of the eggs are 277 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: kind of rosy pink. There's a chicken for every occasion. Actually, 278 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 3: what I looked for, I mean, some of them are 279 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: just so cool to look at, but what I really 280 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 3: was looking for is chickens who would be comfortable and 281 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 3: warm enough in New Hampshire winters so that they would thrive. 282 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: In the back of your book, you've got this gorgeous, 283 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: gorgeous series of photos all these ornamental poultry or these 284 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: creatures with you call them top hats or it was 285 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: just so striking to see the variety of chickens that 286 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 1: you're not even aware of. 287 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're apparently like pigeons, very plastic species, like dogs too. 288 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: That lends itself to all kinds of different forms through breeding. 289 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: I was delighted to have my beautiful black sex links 290 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: and my heritage breed dominiques who were black and white. 291 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: But occasionally the breeder would throw in a free exotic 292 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 3: chick and you didn't know what you might be getting, 293 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 3: but you could be pretty sure it was going to 294 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 3: turn out to be a rooster. And that's the feminist utopia. 295 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: At our house was shattered. 296 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about roosters. I love this 297 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: idea of this feminist utopia. But my grandmom in India, 298 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: she had this like house that had a lot of 299 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: extended family, and so one of my aunts was obsessed 300 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: with animals, and so we had all these cows and 301 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: dogs and rabbits and you know, like various birds and 302 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: things like that. But there were always chickens around, and 303 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: the roosters were so aggressive. And I when I saw 304 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: in your book in the front part you said you 305 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: talked to a friend and she had like a rooster 306 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: whisper who basically said, pick up the rooster and almost 307 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: cuddle it and that changes its impression of you. That 308 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: was really stunning to be So, tell me a little 309 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: bit about roosters and why they have this sort of 310 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: behavioral trait. 311 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of roosters get abandoned in the woods 312 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 3: or they turn into soup because of this behavior. Roosters 313 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: will do anything to protect their flock, and they're very gentlemanly. Generally, 314 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: they will call to their ladies to tell them when 315 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 3: there's something particularly delicious to eat, and they will step 316 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: back and let them enjoy. But because you know, all 317 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 3: birds are pretty delicate, they're made of air, their bones 318 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: are hollow. A rooster who feels that his flock is 319 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 3: in danger has to take action. And roosters are equipped 320 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 3: with pointy spurs that can actually hurt you if they 321 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 3: feel under threat. And I discover this to my dismay 322 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: when we had our minister over one day and was 323 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: introducing his new fiance to me and wanted to enchant 324 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: her children with our friendly barnyard. While the peg came 325 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: bucking and snorting out of his pen and the children 326 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: were a little shaken up by them. And then Graham, 327 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 3: my minister says, here's someone more your size, and he 328 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: starts to pet some of the heads. And I've always 329 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 3: petted my hands too, And you start like near their neck, 330 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: and then you follow the neck down and often the 331 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 3: chicken was squat when you reach the tail. And this 332 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 3: is actually called the sex squat, and it's used to 333 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 3: let a rooster jump on the back of them. So 334 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 3: our rooster just at that moment, looked up across the 335 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 3: barnyard and saw what he perceived as a travesty the minister, 336 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: as far as as was trying to have sex with 337 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 3: his head, so he came full across the barnyard and 338 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: hit Graham on the legs spurs first and true blood. 339 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 3: So you can imagine that day was not the fun 340 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 3: filled adventure that Graham was hoping for. I ended up 341 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: giving both of the children an egg to try to 342 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 3: cheer them up, but then later learn that one of 343 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 3: them broke in the back of the car and stay 344 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 3: they have a whole street permanently. 345 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: It's so funny because previously in the book you write 346 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: about like the neighbors who take to all your animals, 347 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: and you sort of imagine the same scene's gonna happen 348 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: with this minister and his family, and it just does 349 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: not work out that way. But in terms of roosters 350 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: and the way they communicate, I think there's a bit 351 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: in your book about the various sounds that the chickens 352 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: make and that they have something like twenty four different 353 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: calls and different ways to warn about animals coming from 354 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: the air or from the ground, or can you talk 355 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about that. 356 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, they are communicating very specific information and you 357 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: can see this when a rooster calls out that he 358 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: has seen a hawk. What do you think happens to 359 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: the chickens. Well, they start looking up because he's told 360 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: them it's an aerial predator. But if he calls out 361 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 3: because he's seen a fox, they don't look up. He 362 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: said fox. Foxes don't fly through the sky, so they'll 363 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 3: look around. He can also indicate whether the animal that 364 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 3: is threatening them is coming quickly or slowly, or is 365 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 3: near or far. He also tells them whether the treat 366 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 3: he's discovered is particularly delicious, because the tempo of his 367 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: call will be faster. So animals are communicating all around us, 368 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 3: and only recently have we learned to tune in. And 369 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 3: I love it that this most common bird of all. 370 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 3: There's four chickens for every human on this planet. Even 371 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: if you can't tell a robin from a crow, everyone 372 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 3: could recognize a chicken. We take them for granted, but 373 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 3: they are right there before us, and fabulous teachers of 374 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 3: wildness and wonder. 375 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: And you also mentioned that the chickens had come up 376 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: with a name for your friends. 377 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 3: Yes, this is so interesting. My friend Melissa, who has 378 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 3: written a wonderful book called How to Speak Chicken, and 379 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 3: she also had a blog called Tilly's Nest. Tilly was 380 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: her lead chicken and it was Tilly who invented a 381 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 3: name for her, And so how did she know it 382 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 3: was a name? Well, first of all, Tilly only said 383 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: this around Melissa, never said it when Melissa wasn't around, 384 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 3: never said it to other people. And it sounded kind 385 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 3: of like ba, I mean, it went almost like a 386 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 3: trumpet announcing the arrival of a queen. And she realized 387 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 3: what this sound was. It was her name. And we 388 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 3: know of a number of other animals that invent names 389 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: for themselves and for others. We know dolphins have signature whistles, 390 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 3: for example, and we know that dogs recognize their names 391 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 3: and recognize our names. Whether they make up their own 392 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: name in dog we don't yet know. But it makes 393 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 3: complete sense to me that in a society in which 394 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: everyone's position in the group is important, it makes total 395 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: sense that they would have a name for the person 396 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 3: who cares for them. 397 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: And I think you mentioned that even after Tillie had passed, 398 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: the chickens continued to use that name for her. Right, 399 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: it was this legacy that lived on. 400 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 3: That'sly taught that name to others in the flock. So 401 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 3: Melissa's nay, or maybe I should call her her name 402 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 3: definitely lives on. And you know this sounds like, oh, 403 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 3: this is like a sweet little anecdote or a just 404 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: so story. But I should point out that Melissa's book, 405 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 3: which was a book for young people, won an award 406 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 3: from the American Association for the Advancement of Science, as 407 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 3: did one of mine, and that's how I met her. 408 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 3: So they say, you know, the plural of anecdote is data. 409 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. We have to take a quick break, 410 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: but do not go anywhere. Our conversation with author sim 411 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: Montgomery will continue right after this break. Welcome back to 412 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: Part time Tenius. I'm talking to Si Montgomery, author of 413 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: the new book What the Chicken Knows. So in your book, 414 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: you write that humans can actually tell the difference between 415 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: when chickens are happy and when they're sad. From the cooks. 416 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 3: Delighted to hear that, you always hear it said, we 417 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 3: don't know what we don't know, But I think often 418 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 3: we don't know what we do know, and we're getting 419 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 3: information all around us. We're gathering at we're gathering sense 420 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: with our noses that we don't consciously necessarily process. And 421 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: I think that sometimes we know more about animals intuitively 422 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: and instinctually than we do intellectually, and that what happens 423 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 3: is that when we're in school, people jam it down 424 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 3: our throat that we should only pay attention to one species, 425 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: the human species, and that everybody else is some kind 426 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 3: of a second class citizen. But that's not true. We're 427 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 3: part of a big family, and I like it that way. 428 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: So I want to talk about Pickles. Can you tell 429 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: the audience a little bit about this very special bird 430 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: that came into your life. 431 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, Pickles. When she arrived from the hatchery, it was 432 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 3: clear there was something a little wrong. She had a 433 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 3: little bump on her head which was like a little 434 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: pimple filled with cerebrospinal fluid, her head at all in it, basically, 435 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 3: and she was always a little slower than the others. 436 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: I didn't realize at first that one of her problems 437 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 3: was she couldn't peck straight. If you were held up 438 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 3: a handful of delicious treats, she would peck and she'd 439 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: get a delicious treat. But if you handed her like 440 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 3: one kernel of corn, she'd peck over here and miss it. 441 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 3: But she did fine, and she wasn't trying to be 442 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 3: the head chicken or anything. Everyone else looked after her, 443 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: which was great, but she went off kind of wandered off, 444 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 3: and she came back with this hideous injury. It almost 445 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 3: looked like her head was almost cut off, and I 446 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 3: don't know what happened, but we rush her off to 447 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: our veterinarian doctor, Charles Davinny, who is a saint. This 448 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 3: man will turn down no animal in need, and he 449 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 3: later would perform a hysterectomy on one of my chickens, 450 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 3: which is, believe me, not something they teach you in 451 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 3: vet school because there is never a call for a 452 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 3: hys directomy for a laying him. But he was a 453 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 3: genius and he figured out how to close up this 454 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 3: wound and he sent her home with an Elizabethan coller 455 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 3: which he macguyvered out of an X ray film. So 456 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 3: the thing was though about chickens. Even though they can 457 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 3: be very affectionate and they do care for one another, 458 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: there's one exception to this rule, and that is if 459 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 3: any chicken is bleeding, the other chickens attack them. And why. 460 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: One theory might be that chickens do like meat. I'm 461 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 3: a vegetarian myself, but they like meat and if they 462 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: find any It's often signaled by the presence of blood, 463 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: and they just want that resource. Another possibility is if 464 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: someone in your flock is likely to attract a predator, 465 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: maybe you should drive them away. You know, I have 466 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 3: no idea, but it's something very old in chickens. So 467 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 3: we had to remove her from the flock, and she 468 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: lived in the bathroom for a while. So anyone who 469 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: used our downstairs bathroom was alarmed to find a chicken 470 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: sitting with a coffee. It out, that's ray on the sink. 471 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 3: But there she was, and she healed and was fine 472 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 3: and went right back with a flock. 473 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: I love the story of Pickles. That scene of Pickles 474 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: in the bathroom and people finding her there was really funny. 475 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: But scientists have noticed that chickens t to peck at 476 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: any red dot right, And you mentioned in the book 477 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: that actually farmers have come up with ways to alter 478 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: chickens vision to prevent them from helping. 479 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 3: This was actually in use in some places until like 480 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 3: the seventies or even eighties. They put a kid you 481 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 3: not sunglasses on them that would filter out that color. 482 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 3: But I think that's a little unwieldy. What we do 483 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: or what we did there's a product called stop peck, 484 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 3: and it apparently tastes horrible and you put it on 485 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: the wound and the other chickens won't attack. But we 486 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 3: didn't have any stop peck at that time, and we 487 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: just kept her inside. 488 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: You know, there's some really funny moments in this book, 489 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: and maybe think about how chickens in culture are almost 490 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: always associated with comedy, like there's the road crossing jokes 491 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: and rubber chickens, Gonzo and Camilla. Do you think it's 492 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: fair to say chickens are the fun Oh. 493 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 3: Gosh, well, people make fun of EMUs, these tall, flightless 494 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 3: birds that I studied. I lived with EMUs in the 495 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 3: outback for six months back in the eighties, and they 496 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 3: do what looks like to us funny things that remind 497 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: us of people, but dressed up as chickens, sometimes seem 498 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 3: to be dancing. Sometimes they just seem to be like 499 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 3: all flustered. And this is true of EMUs and of chickens. 500 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 3: I think when we see any animal doing something that 501 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 3: just so reminds you of a person, it makes you laugh. 502 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 3: And part of it is that it's funny, and part 503 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 3: of it is just the delight of seeing our sameness 504 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 3: and our difference encapsulated in one single moment. 505 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: I love the way you end the book, too, when 506 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: you talk about how birds are so different from us, 507 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: and that they're closer to lizards, or they're closer to alligators, 508 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: or they're basically feathered dinosaurs, and yet they're looking for companionship, 509 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: that they're looking for comfort from community and these things 510 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: that really unite is and I love that sentiment so much. 511 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 3: I love that so many of us here on Earth 512 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 3: share these emotions and share the ability to remember things, 513 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 3: to think of the future, and you're reminded how adaptive 514 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 3: these things are. And of course humans shouldn't be the 515 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 3: only species to have these things. And I think, particularly 516 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 3: right now, when we just seem so close to destroying 517 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 3: this sweet green planet of ours, that it's so essential 518 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: to be reminded that the world is full of other 519 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 3: minds and other souls. 520 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: It really is such a beautiful book, and I think 521 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: there's something so delightful of finding wonder in creatures, and 522 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: you really do that which great joyous attitude, and I 523 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: really appreciated it. So I would definitely recommend What the 524 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: Chicken Knows to everyone out there. Thank you so much 525 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: for spending time with us. I really appreciate it. 526 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: All the pleasure was mine. Thank you so much for 527 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 3: having me. Thank you for loving animals. Thank you for 528 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 3: reading my book. 529 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: That was so fun. 530 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 2: I feel like I actually appreciate my chickens even more now, 531 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: Man I go. 532 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: And I know what high esteem you already held Potato 533 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: chip in so it makes sense. I really found sign 534 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: to writing so delightful. And thank you so much to 535 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: sih Montgomery, who's written about so many wonderful animals, from 536 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: turtles to pigs to octopi. Her latest, What the Chicken Knows, 537 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: is available at libraries, indie bookstores, and wherever books are sold. 538 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with a new episode, but 539 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: in the meantime, from Dylan, Gabe, Will, Mary and myself, 540 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is 541 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted 542 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: by Will Pearson and Me Mongas Chatikler and research by 543 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: our goodpal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and 544 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: produced by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang. 545 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: The show is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvell 546 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: and Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha Gay, 547 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: trustee Dara Potts and Viney Shorey. For more podcasts from 548 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 549 00:34:45,840 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.