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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

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Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or their employees.

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Speaker 1: This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be

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Speaker 1: suitable for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Listening to Discretion is advised. Radical is released every Tuesday

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Speaker 2: and brought to you absolutely free, but if you want

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Speaker 2: subscribe to tenderfoot Plus. For more information, check out tenderfootplus

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy the episode Campsite Media.

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Speaker 2: When European settlers arrived in the colonies in the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 2: they brought the death penalty with them. The first recorded

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Speaker 2: execution by Europeans was carried out in sixteen oh eight,

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Speaker 2: long before American independence and the ratification of the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: Crime subject to the death penalty have included murder, robbery, rape,

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Speaker 2: horse dealing, and aiding a runaway slave. For most of

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Speaker 2: the twentieth century, the state of Georgia electrocuted intimates to

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Speaker 2: death right up until the time of a mam Jamial's arrest, actually,

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Speaker 2: but the courts ruled that cruel and unusual, so when

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Speaker 2: a Maam Jamil's life was put in the hands of

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Speaker 2: twelve good folks from Georgia. He faced lethal injection that

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Speaker 2: was supposed to be more humane. A Mam Jamil's defense

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Speaker 2: team felt the pressure. Their arguments, the words they chose,

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Speaker 2: even their facial expressions. It could all affect the jury's opinion.

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Speaker 2: A mistake, a poor choice could lead to a mam

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Speaker 2: Jamial being sentenced to death and ultimately killed. A Mam

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Speaker 2: Jamial's defense attorney, Tony Axam.

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Speaker 4: I would be asking to save his life. So that's all.

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Speaker 4: That's a tremendous bird. You've said, jurors, he's not guilty.

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Speaker 4: There's not enough evidence, and now you have to come

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Speaker 4: in front of that same jury and say, okay, let's

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Speaker 4: assume you got it right. I have a second argument

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Speaker 4: for you. He should live.

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Speaker 2: The prosecution was the first side to call witnesses. Deputy

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Speaker 2: Kinchin's mother took the stand. She said when she was

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Speaker 2: at home, she found herself sitting next to the phone

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Speaker 2: waiting for her son to call. Kinchin's sister said his

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Speaker 2: death left her depressed and angry. Kinchin's wife said he

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Speaker 2: had been a good father and that some days she

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Speaker 2: just sat and cried. The defense called witnesses in an

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Speaker 2: effort to show that a man Jimil and the decades

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Speaker 2: before the shooting, had lived a life of service. Andrew Young,

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Speaker 2: the former mayor of Atlanta and aid to doctor King,

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Speaker 2: he was a defense witness. Remember it was Young who,

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Speaker 2: nearly twenty years after this day in court, wrote a

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Speaker 2: letter to the Fulton County DA's office arguing that AmAm

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Speaker 2: Jamial was innocent. Young said that he and a Maam

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Speaker 2: Jamil or h. Rat Brown at the time, met briefly

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Speaker 2: in the sixties. They weren't close, but Young still knew

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Speaker 2: that Rapp had lived through Jim Crow worked in the

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Speaker 2: rural South, endured violence, and spent much of his life

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Speaker 2: as part of a movement pushing to improve the lives

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Speaker 2: of black people that counted for something. The way Young

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Speaker 2: saw it, Axem told me and Maam Jamil had built

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Speaker 2: up some credits going through all that credit to some

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Speaker 2: imaginary system weighing the value of human lives.

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Speaker 5: So he should be spared.

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Speaker 6: Now we're at two thousand and we still don't have freedom.

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Speaker 6: And that's the storm that Jamil Alamin weathered, and being

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Speaker 6: in that storm, he deserves to live even if you

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Speaker 6: think that he did it, spare his life, let him live.

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Speaker 2: In their closing arguments, the prosecution to the murder was

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Speaker 2: especially vile and that it showed a Maam Jamil was depraved.

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Speaker 2: Prosecutors showed gruesome, bloody photos of Kinchin's wounds. They said

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Speaker 2: it mattered that it was a sheriff's deputy who was killed,

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Speaker 2: and by sentencing a Maam Jamil to die, the jury

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Speaker 2: would be signaling that violence against law enforcement won't be tolerated.

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Speaker 2: Jack Martin, in his closing argument, stressed the power that

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Speaker 2: society had put in the hands of the jury. What

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Speaker 2: is to be decided now, he said, is the most

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Speaker 2: important decision that any person ever makes in their whole life,

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Speaker 2: the most important decision that any democracy or any government

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Speaker 2: ever makes, the one time that we presume to be

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Speaker 2: god like. I appeal to your best, not your worst,

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Speaker 2: Martin said. I appeal to your hopes for the future,

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Speaker 2: not your fears. I appealed to the possibility and the

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Speaker 2: reality of redemption in all of us, not the brutal

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Speaker 2: satisfaction of revenge.

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Speaker 5: Not the worst than us.

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Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil didn't fear execution, and as the jury deliberated

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Speaker 2: on a sentence. He put everything in the hands of

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Speaker 2: a law. After five hours, the jury decided against the

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Speaker 2: death penalty and they sentenced a Mam Jamil to life

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Speaker 2: in prison without parole. From Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts, This is Radical, I'm Mostly Secret, Episode five,

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Speaker 2: Cherry Pie, AmAm Jamille h.

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Speaker 5: Rat Brown.

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Speaker 2: He had a gift for delivering unforgettable lines. But there's

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Speaker 2: one phrase that's stuck in our culture memory more than

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Speaker 2: any other. He said it in the speech in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty seven during the long hot Summer of Black Rebellion.

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Speaker 7: Violence is a plot of America's culture.

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Speaker 6: It is as American as cherry pie.

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Speaker 2: Violence is as American as cherry pie. It's meant as

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Speaker 2: a statement of fact, one of those beautiful phrases that's

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Speaker 2: simple and profound. At the same time, Rap wasn't saying

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Speaker 2: that violence is inherently good. He was saying that violence

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Speaker 2: is America, and America is violence. America was founded with violence,

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Speaker 2: built with violence, and persists because of violence. Never mind

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Speaker 2: that Americans eat apple pie way more than cherry pie.

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Speaker 2: The slip better conjures up the red bloodiness of it all.

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Speaker 5: I was still obsessed with getting to.

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Speaker 2: The bottom of what happened on the ninth of March sixteenth,

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Speaker 2: two thousand. The evidence that came out at trial, it

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Speaker 2: was too shaky for me to set aside the possibility

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Speaker 2: that a Mamjimial was wrongfully convicted. But I was pulled

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Speaker 2: in another direction too. I needed to investigate this American violence,

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Speaker 2: how it operates, and the consequences, however dark or disguised

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Speaker 2: they might be. I since it was key to understanding

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Speaker 2: a Maamjamial and to understanding the eruption of violence in

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Speaker 2: the West End, whether a Mam Jamil was involved or not.

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Speaker 2: After AmAm Jamil was convicted and sentenced, law enforcement officials

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Speaker 2: held a secret meeting with the warden of Reidsville Prison

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Speaker 2: in Tattnall County, Georgia. A Maam Jamil was going to

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Speaker 2: be transferred there. Tattnall County's story is America's story crammed

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Speaker 2: into five hundred square miles of swamps and rolling hills

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Speaker 2: in southeastern Georgia. One point a quarter of the county's

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Speaker 2: population was enslaved raising beef, cattle, and cotton under the

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Speaker 2: Georgia sun and under the threat of death, rape, and

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Speaker 2: family separation. Much of Tattenneau County's success at the time,

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Speaker 2: according to an official county website, can be attributed to

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Speaker 2: slave labor.

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Speaker 5: Then the State of Georgia opened.

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Speaker 2: A prison near the county seat, Readsville, and much of

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Speaker 2: the county's growth in the last thirty five years, again,

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Speaker 2: according to an official county website, can be attributed to

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Speaker 2: Regisville Prison. In that secret meeting, law enforcement officials told

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Speaker 2: the warden that thirty to fifty thousand people had vowed

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Speaker 2: to save a Maam Demial and to spirit him away

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Speaker 2: from the State of Georgia by force if necessary. Thirty

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Speaker 2: to fifty thousand people before law enforcement flew a Maamjamial

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Speaker 2: to Reedsville in a helicopter. They set up a five

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Speaker 2: mile perimeter around the prison. A Ma'am Tarak Khan was

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Speaker 2: the sole Muslim chape at the prison.

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Speaker 5: When a Man Jamial arrived.

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Speaker 7: They treated it like al chapo, right like that there

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Speaker 7: was gonna be you know, this army is going to

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Speaker 7: break him out of something, and the snipers and everybody

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Speaker 7: outside and trucks and this and that and bring him

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Speaker 7: in in a hui, you know, and all of that

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Speaker 7: kind of stuff, and uh, it wasn't none of that.

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Speaker 7: You know, they just overdo stuff.

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Speaker 2: A Mam Tarik had met a Man Jamil before on

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Speaker 2: the outside. They seen each other at basketball games, and

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Speaker 2: a Mam Tark went to the Western Mastet a couple

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Speaker 2: of times as a chaplain. He had seen guards abuse

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Speaker 2: inmates for basically no reason, and he worried they would

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Speaker 2: give a man Jamil an especially hard time. So after

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Speaker 2: the helicopter landed the Hueiye, he went to check on him.

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Speaker 7: I wanted to stay there a little longer that day

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Speaker 7: to make sure that when hey body men, that he

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Speaker 7: didn't get scraped up, you know.

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Speaker 8: What I mean.

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Speaker 2: Reedsville was one of the state's highest security prisons. Politicians

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Speaker 2: called inmates there the worst of the worst. A Ma'am Jimil,

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Speaker 2: now nearly sixty years old, was held in a unit

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Speaker 2: named K Building and solitary Confinement. The doors to the

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Speaker 2: cells and K Building were solid metal, except for a

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Speaker 2: slot for a tray of food and a flap guards

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Speaker 2: would open to handcuff the inmates. A Maam Jamil's cell

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Speaker 2: was probably eight feet by ten feet, just enough room

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Speaker 2: for him to take three steps in either direction. He

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Speaker 2: was forced to spend twenty four hours a day inside

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Speaker 2: his cell, except for the occasions he was given an

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Speaker 2: hour to go outside to get some fresh air and

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Speaker 2: direct sunlight, but even then he was still inside a cage.

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Speaker 2: Our systems of public safety are built on the idea

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Speaker 2: that in order to protect the public, we must harm

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Speaker 2: some individuals. Punishment is a kind of harm, a kind

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Speaker 2: of violence. Often that as a society we have read

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Speaker 2: a person deserves because of the acts they committed. The

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Speaker 2: death penalty is an obvious example of violence if it's

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Speaker 2: squarely into the most common definition, the exercise of physical

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Speaker 2: force against another, and the practice of solitary confinement isn't

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Speaker 2: too far off. Most often, state violence is concealed by

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Speaker 2: bureaucracy and innocuous terms corrections, k building, even confinement.

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Speaker 7: They were really stringent on him, thinking that he was

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Speaker 7: going to have control over people there, you know what

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Speaker 7: I mean. But you know, he had an even mindset

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Speaker 7: about him being in there. He wasn't panicking, you know,

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Speaker 7: he just this is where I'm at, you know, this

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Speaker 7: is the hand I'm in debt, So I'm here.

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Speaker 2: A man Jamil was in solitary confinement, but he wasn't

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Speaker 2: completely isolated. He could see visitors, and he had them

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Speaker 2: almost every weekend in holiday. His wife Karima and their

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Speaker 2: son Kyrie came about three times a month. Sister Karima,

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Speaker 2: an attorney herself by this time, was working with a

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Speaker 2: legal team to appeal to Mam Jimil's conviction and the

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Speaker 2: Maam Jamil supporters. At least once a year, around Thanksgiving

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Speaker 2: and Christmas, they gathered outside the prison to protest his

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Speaker 2: conviction and his treatment inside. A Maam Jamil communicated with

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Speaker 2: the other inmates in K Building by talking through air

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Speaker 2: ducts between the cells. A Maam Tarak told us that

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Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil gave the Shahada, the Muslim oath to a

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Speaker 2: white supremacist and K Building that he converted the guy

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Speaker 2: to Alam. A tale, maybe a true one from the

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Speaker 2: legend of AmAm Jamil. A Ma'am Tark. He visited a

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Speaker 2: K Building pretty regularly.

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Speaker 7: It wasn't necessarily a special trip for him per se.

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Speaker 7: But I've made short of when I went over there

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Speaker 7: that I got a chance to talk with him. I

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Speaker 7: called officer officer to dropped slot. There's a little slot

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Speaker 7: there and they would drop the slot. So I don't

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Speaker 7: have to talk in the crack of the door. But

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Speaker 7: you know, I used to talk to him periodically, you

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Speaker 7: know what I mean. And he always had good spirits.

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Speaker 7: You know what I mean. He's locked up, don't have anything,

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Speaker 7: and then ask you is anything I could do for

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Speaker 7: you? You know what you need anything? I mean, that's his

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Speaker 7: first words, you know, I mean, you locked up?

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Speaker 5: What you got?

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Speaker 7: You know what I'm saying. So, but that's how he was.

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Speaker 7: He always did that. Even if you see him now,

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Speaker 7: he'll say the same thing.

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Speaker 2: I know from court documents that when a Mamjamil arrived

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Speaker 2: at regivial prison, the warden was immediately suspicious and wary

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Speaker 2: of him. Mam Jamil was accused at least three times

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Speaker 2: of being involved in escape plots. I'm talking Shawshank redemption

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Speaker 2: type stuff here. One time he was allegedly caught hanging

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Speaker 2: out near a broken window on the other side of

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Speaker 2: the glass, a rope made of sheets and a hacksaw.

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Speaker 2: He denied all of it, but the possibility of mam

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Speaker 2: Jamil's escape that was just the beginning of the warden's concerns.

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Speaker 2: In a memo from July two thousand and two, months

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Speaker 2: after a Maam Jamil was convicted. The warden said that

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Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil had the potential and influence to be a

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Speaker 2: definite threat. This at the same time, he said that

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Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil hadn't created any trouble, that his behavior was acceptable,

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Speaker 2: and that the warden expected his behavior would continue to be.

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Speaker 5: Acceptable to me.

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Speaker 2: This contradiction that a Maam Jamil was a threat but

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Speaker 2: also well behaved the warden was revealing a deeper fear,

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Speaker 2: something like the evil energy that the US Marshall felt

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Speaker 2: in that Alabama courtroom standing near him. The myth of

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Speaker 2: a man Jamil. It was spreading out of a man

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Speaker 2: Jamil's control and gaining traction among people with the power

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Speaker 2: to punish. In two thousand and five, after three years

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Speaker 2: of prison time, a Muslim inmate and a different facility

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Speaker 2: is in a Mam Jamila message. The other guy wanted

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Speaker 2: to know if a Mam Jamil would assume leadership over Muslims.

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Speaker 2: Throughout the Georgia Department of Corrections, unifying Muslim inmates at

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Speaker 2: over fifty prisons, a Ma'am Jamil said yes. A document

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Speaker 2: was circulated for other Muslim inmates to sign if they

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Speaker 2: agreed to pledge baya or loyalty to a man Jamil.

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Speaker 2: The mission as it's laid out in the copy of

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Speaker 2: the document we have seemed noble enough. It said, Look,

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Speaker 2: Muslims aren't treated well in Georgia prisons. If we come

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Speaker 2: together under a Mam Jamil, we can better advocate for

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Speaker 2: ourselves and that will ultimately help us be better Muslims.

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Speaker 2: But a Ma'am Tarik he didn't think this was a

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Speaker 2: good idea, even though he had a lot of respect

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Speaker 2: for a Maam Jamil.

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Speaker 7: I think a few brothers told me about it, and

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Speaker 7: they would ask me about it, and I told him, no,

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Speaker 7: that's not gonna happen, because that would even that at

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Speaker 7: that particular time, would trump the other authority that is there.

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Speaker 2: The wardens ran the prisons period, and they would shut

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Speaker 2: down any other parallel hierarchy. When prison administration learned of

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Speaker 2: the BAI, they talked to a Maam Jimial about it

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Speaker 2: and he said he would instruct the other Muslims to

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Speaker 2: quash the effort. That would be the end of that.

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Speaker 2: But in June of two thousand and six, about six

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Speaker 2: months after the BAI began, the FBI published an internal

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Speaker 2: report with the title the attempt to radicalize the Georgia

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Speaker 2: Department of Corrections inmate population. The report called AmAm Jimil

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Speaker 2: an Islamic extremist.

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Speaker 5: Basically a terrorist.

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Speaker 2: It ran through his biography, even quoted his fiery speech in.

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Speaker 5: Cambridge, Maryland.

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Speaker 2: The FBI report narrowed in on a few lines in

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Speaker 2: the BAI document, and maybe reasonably so. One of the

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Speaker 2: lines said the Georgia Department of Corrections is a battlefield

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Speaker 2: and we need a general to coordinate and direct us,

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Speaker 2: and another a quote from an Islamic text. It suggested

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Speaker 2: violence against anyone who challenges the leader. Here's this idea again.

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Speaker 2: Violence is a means for the greater good. It's scary

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Speaker 2: for authorities when they're facing it too. It's why so

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Speaker 2: much of the response from the FEDS was based on

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Speaker 2: what they thought a man Jamil might do or how

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Speaker 2: they imagine others might respond to him.

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Speaker 5: Not what actually happened.

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Speaker 2: One passage of the report reads, it should be noted

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Speaker 2: that any statements made by Alamine could be taken in

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Speaker 2: an extreme nature, and the content could be potentially dangerous,

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Speaker 2: even if Alamine's intent was innocuous and Mama Jamil became

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Speaker 2: bigger than he actually was, scarier than he actually was,

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Speaker 2: because the fear of violence freaks you the fuck out.

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Speaker 2: One morning in two thousand and seven, prison guards showed

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Speaker 2: up at a mamm Jimial cell and k building. They

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Speaker 2: took him out through the rear gate of the prison,

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Speaker 2: where there was a caravan waiting. The guards put him

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Speaker 2: in the back of an suv. We got you now

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Speaker 2: that Mam Jamil, said, one of the guards told him.

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Speaker 2: Then they drove off. In the most common definition of violence,

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Speaker 2: like I mentioned a few minutes ago, the word simply

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Speaker 2: means to exercise physical force against another. But there are

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Speaker 2: also meetings of violence, obsolete uses dating back to the

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Speaker 2: fifteenth century that define it as an abuse of power

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Speaker 2: or authority that persecutes or oppresses. These days, we don't

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Speaker 2: really call that violence. No blood, no visible injury, But

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Speaker 2: the consequences of such violence that we don't really call violence,

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00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:12,360
Speaker 2: they're very real, tangible. The FBI surveillance of a Mamjmial

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Speaker 2: the infiltration of the mass JD by informants, it could

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Speaker 2: fall under this lesser used definition of violence, And the

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00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 2: more I learned about the extent and duration of the

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Speaker 2: surveillance the more I was convinced that it contributed to

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Speaker 2: the shootout where there was very real blood a Ma'am

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Speaker 2: Jamil's wife, Karima Elamine, she got information from the FBI

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Speaker 2: that helped me draw this conclusion. Sister Karima is a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: one I'm acquainted with. Actually, she represented me and my

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00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 2: wife on our green card application. Embarrassingly enough, I didn't

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Speaker 2: realize at the time who her husband was. We reconnected

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Speaker 2: when I started working on this project, and she was

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Speaker 2: as nice as ever, though she did tell me that

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Speaker 2: my generation needs to know more of its history. Sister

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Speaker 2: Kareema is pretty private and she didn't want to be interviewed,

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Speaker 2: but we were able to find a recording of her

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Speaker 2: from a rally to support AmAm Jamil that happened in Harlem.

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Speaker 8: He struggle.

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Speaker 2: Rallies for a man Jamil weren't uncommon after he was

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Speaker 2: convicted and placed in isolation. This is one of the

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Speaker 2: larger ones we've come across. There were about two hundred

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Speaker 2: people there. Here's sister Kareema.

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Speaker 9: I do want to extend email Jamil and I do

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Speaker 9: call him Emaim Jamil. I want to extend his greetings

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Speaker 9: and his appreciation and he would say, I Salamu a

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Speaker 9: leako to everyone, and that's how I begin, and I

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Speaker 9: begin in the name of Allah the most Merciful.

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Speaker 2: Soon after she and Rap began their relationship, the FBI

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Speaker 2: contacted her sister.

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Speaker 5: Karama's family were part of a.

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Speaker 2: Black power group and they had been arrested. The FBI

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Speaker 2: tried to make a deal with Kareema.

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Speaker 9: They wanted me to tell them where my husband might

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Speaker 9: soon to be husband, where he was traveling. And they

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Speaker 9: told me at that time, well, if you help us,

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Speaker 9: will drop the chargees against your sister and her husband.

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Speaker 9: And I said, well, you know they were frayed, so

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Speaker 9: I'm not even going to go there. I'm not going

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Speaker 9: to cooperate. Five years later, my husband is still saying

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Speaker 9: he could never figure out whether I had cooperated or not.

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Speaker 9: He's still telling me that, right.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of a dark joke, but also an ugly

345
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Speaker 2: thing to have between a couple. Sister Karma said that

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Speaker 2: when Rapp was a target of the FBI, the bureau

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00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 2: harassed both of their parents so intensely that her father

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Speaker 2: dropped dead in the street after some officials visited him

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Speaker 2: in his job. A month later, a Mamjimialsma died and

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Speaker 2: four months after that, Sister Karima's mother died. And let's

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Speaker 2: not forget the car bomb.

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Speaker 9: It brought out a family closer and closer to him.

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Speaker 9: Why they demonstrated the extent and the degree that they

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Speaker 9: will go to divide family.

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Speaker 2: After a Mam Jamil was convicted, Sister Karma filed a

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Speaker 2: Freedom of Information Act request with the FBI. It told

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Speaker 2: her that they had twenty one thousand, six hundred and

358
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Speaker 2: forty nine pages of records potentially responsive to her request.

359
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Speaker 2: Twenty one thousand, six hundred and forty nine. Maybe at

360
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Speaker 2: one point there had been even more records on a

361
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Speaker 2: Mam Jamil, but the FBI said many were damaged in

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Speaker 2: a flood.

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Speaker 5: Anyway.

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Speaker 2: Two years later, after Sister Karma submitted their request, the

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Speaker 2: FBI turned over almost seven hundred pages.

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Speaker 5: When I look through the.

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Speaker 2: Documents, there were two things I saw that suggest the

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Speaker 2: FBI was at least linked to the shooting of Deputy

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Speaker 2: Kinchin and Deputy English. I don't mean they somehow orchestrated

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Speaker 2: the thing. What I mean is that the FBI, they

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Speaker 2: were up in the mix. First, there were three handwritten words.

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Speaker 2: It was placed remember how when a Mam Jmial was

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Speaker 2: captured in Lowndes County, Alabama, an FBI agent named Ron

374
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Speaker 2: Campbell and kicked and spit on him. Campbell had a

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Speaker 2: troubled history with the Bureau. Was accused of shooting an

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Speaker 2: African American Muslim in the back of the head and

377
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Speaker 2: planting a gun at the scene in Philadelphia. While Campbell

378
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 2: was chasing a Mam Demial, he fell in the swamp,

379
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Speaker 2: he'd say later, and was on his own for at

380
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Speaker 2: least a few minutes. During the trial, the defense called

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Speaker 2: Campbell to testify. Here's a ma'am Jamil's lead defense attorney,

382
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Speaker 2: Jack Martin.

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Speaker 8: We knew that Campbell was willing to plant out as

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Speaker 8: he was a corrupt FBI agent. The gun was not

385
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Speaker 8: on at the time he was arrested. It was supposedly

386
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 8: found later, and they found the gun on the ground.

387
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Speaker 8: I wonder why they didn't find the grun in the

388
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Speaker 8: first place.

389
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Speaker 2: I said this earlier, but I'll say it again. We

390
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Speaker 2: contacted Campbell, but he didn't agree to an interview. An

391
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: internal investigation cleared Campbell in that Philadelphia case and he

392
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Speaker 2: was never charged with anything related to it. And we

393
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Speaker 2: don't have any evidence Campbell was a corrupt agent. That's

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Speaker 2: just what Martin thought. After a man Jimial was captured

395
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Speaker 2: that same night, a sergeant on the dog tracking team

396
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Speaker 2: found a nine millimeter pistol near the edge of the woods.

397
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Speaker 8: Why would ala mean if you had this shootout in

398
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 8: the lad with his gun, had brought it with him

399
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 8: to Alabama, why wouldn't he just.

400
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 5: Get rid of it?

401
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: The document's sister Karima got from the FBI. They included

402
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: handwritten notes of a debrief with the sergeant on the

403
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: dog tracking team, and the notes from the FBI said,

404
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: apparently paraphrasing the sergeant about the gun, that it was

405
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: placed like maybe the sergeant told the FBI that it

406
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: looked like the pistol had been planted. That one handwritten

407
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 2: note it supported the argument that the FBI conspired to

408
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: get a mam Jamil convicted. We tried to ask the

409
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: sergeant about this, but he didn't agree to an interview.

410
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: Law enforcement found another gun in the woods too, a

411
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: Ruger Many fourteen rifle. Like with the pistol of mam

412
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: Jamial's fingerprints weren't found on the rifle. Both guns were

413
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 2: ultimately linked to a mam Jamil in the shooting.

414
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 5: But you know, like I've.

415
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: Said before, ballistics analysis linking a specific gun to a

416
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: specific bullet, it has no basis in science. But if

417
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: the guns were placed, were they identical models that law

418
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 2: enforcement could have gotten anywhere? Were they brought all the

419
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: way from Georgia. Attorney Martin has a theory for that.

420
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Speaker 8: It only would be plausible if some ount know of it.

421
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 8: The undercover agent for the FBI, whoever collected the gun

422
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 8: in Atlanta or got a gun that matched the situation

423
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 8: and brought it to Alabama.

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Speaker 2: Basically, Martin is saying someone somehow connected to the FBI

425
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: who was in and around the mass Jed at the

426
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: time of the shooting, they helped execute a frame job.

427
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 5: And so that brings me.

428
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Speaker 2: To the second thing in the documents that sister Karima

429
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: got from the FBI proof the bureau was surveiling a

430
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 2: Mamjamial just days before the shootout on March sixteenth, two thousand.

431
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: The documents are heavily redacted, but I can see that

432
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: they include regular reports and surveillance of a mam Jamial

433
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: and the mass Jed, and the surveillance actually appeared to

434
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: escalate in the months before the shootout.

435
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 5: Let me start at the beginning.

436
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: March nineteen ninety eight, during two hours of surveillance, the subject,

437
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: a Maam Jamil, was not observed. April ninety eight, agents

438
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: drove through the West End and saw a Mam Jmil

439
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: standing on the deck behind his corner store across from

440
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: the mass Gen. February nineteen ninety nine, a confidential source

441
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: told someone at the FBI a piece of information significant

442
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: enough that it was shared with FBI headquarters, and the

443
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: surveillance appeared to intensify. April ninety nine, an agent saw

444
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: a Mam Jamil unload something from a dark green Ford

445
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 2: Explorer with and this is noted in the report dealer tags.

446
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: The next month, a mam Jamil was pulled over in

447
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: that Ford Explorer because he was driving with dealer tags,

448
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: and then arrested for allegedly driving a stolen vehicle. Then

449
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: there were FBI reports in May, June, July, and August

450
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: of ninety nine, all redacted. In October there's another long report.

451
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: It describes a Mamgmil as the leader of a network

452
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: of masters in the US that are quote involved in

453
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: violent crimes and gained their funding from countries in opposition

454
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 2: to the philosophical.

455
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 5: Standing of the United States.

456
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: Alamin is well known to law enforcement authorities as an

457
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: active militant.

458
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 5: End quote the.

459
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: Philosophical standing of the United States. That sounds to me

460
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: like something you'd expect to find in a coin tell

461
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: pro document from the sixties. In February two thousand, the

462
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: FBI got an updated driver's license vhoto of a mamm

463
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: Jimil from the Georgia State Patrol and on March sixth

464
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: of two thousand, just ten days before the shootout, there's

465
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: a memo with a section at the bottom reporting a

466
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: mam Jmial was charged with failing to appear in court

467
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: on that stolen vehicle charge. It was his failure to

468
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: appear that led to the warrant that Kentin and English

469
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: had with them in the West End on March sixteenth.

470
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 5: Two thousand.

471
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: Despite all their redactions in the documents, they said a

472
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: lot the FBI could have done work behind the scenes

473
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: to get a mam Jamil arrested in that Ford Explorer.

474
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: They could have had someone running surveillance in the West

475
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: End at the time of the shootout, someone who might

476
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: have helped plan a weapon in the woods. That all

477
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: seemed possible to me. Some of it even seemed likely.

478
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: Now I knew that the FBI is pursued of a

479
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: man Jamil of h rap Brown, what we can call

480
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: a kind of violence against him and his family and

481
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: his community.

482
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 5: It hadn't stopped at the end of the nineteen sixties.

483
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: It didn't even stop once he was convicted and placed

484
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement in Georgia. Because the FBI's reported about

485
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: a Mamjmial while he was in prison, the one that

486
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: labeled him an Islamic extremist. That report helped justify even

487
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: more violence, violence that some might call.

488
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 5: Soul crushing.

489
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven, five years after he was convicted,

490
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: when a Ma'am Jamil was taken out of his cell

491
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 2: in the early morning, put in the back of an

492
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: suv and driven away from Reedsville Prison in Tattnall County, Georgia.

493
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 5: He had no idea where he.

494
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: Was being taken. We got you now, he said.

495
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 5: A guard told.

496
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: Him, I wonder where a Maam Jamil thought he might

497
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: be going when he heard that. It's not something an

498
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: iniminate here. As before being taken to a medical appointment

499
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: or a court date. Now this was much more ominous.

500
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: It had to be worse than solitary confinement in Georgia's

501
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: toughest prison, where Ma'am Jamil had already been. Did his

502
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: mind turn to the car bomb? Did he think about

503
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: waterboarding Guantanamo? Or did he trust his government to follow

504
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: the rule of law?

505
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: I don't know.

506
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: An airport about a three hour drive away from Reedsville

507
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: was their first stop. A Mam Jamil sat waiting for

508
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: several more hours in the back seat of a van,

509
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: his feet shackled, his hands cuffed and chained to his waist.

510
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: By this time, a Maam Jamil had picked up that

511
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: the Feds had him, but he still didn't know where

512
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: he was going. At five in the evening, now ten

513
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: hours after he was taken out of his cell, he

514
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: complained he was having chest pains and needed to see

515
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: a doctor. When he got out of the vehicle, he collapsed,

516
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: and after some back and forth among the guards, he

517
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: was taken to a hospital. There was an issue with

518
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: his heart. It's not clear exactly what it was, but

519
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: he underwent a procedure under anesthesia. Two days later, a

520
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: Maam Jamil was finally taken onto a plane and flown

521
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: to Oklahoma and then to Colorado. He was driven west

522
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: through the desert.

523
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 10: There's mountains around it. The area itself is beautiful, but

524
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 10: it becomes more and more remote until finally you get

525
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 10: to this place that feels a little bit like the

526
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 10: end of the Earth.

527
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: Laura Rovner is an attorney and one of the few

528
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: people who has spent time inside the federal prison where

529
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: Maam Jamil was taken in Florence, Colorado. The place's full

530
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: name is United States Penitentiary Administrative Maximum Facility, but it's

531
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: known as ADX Florence, a supermax prison considered the most

532
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: secure in the world. The Georgia Department of Corrections had

533
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: requested that the federal government take custody of a. Maam Jamil,

534
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: citing the FBI's finding that he was an Islamic extremist.

535
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,719
Speaker 2: Laura the attorney. She teaches law at the University of Denver,

536
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: where she runs a civil rights clinic. She took on

537
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: her first client from ADX Florence in two thousand and six,

538
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: suing the government over the conditions there.

539
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 10: With her students help, and then the students and I

540
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 10: went on to represent a number of other people. And

541
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 10: then the more work that I did, the more it

542
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 10: became apparent how necessary it was and how really unspeakably

543
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 10: bad the conditions were.

544
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: About three hundred Americans and foreign citizens are incarcerated at

545
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: ADX Florence. Joaquin al Chapo Gusman, the former drug lord

546
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: from Mexico known for his brazen prison escapes, one of

547
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: the Boston Marathon bombers, men involved in the bombing of

548
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: the World Trade Center in nineteen ninety three, and at

549
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: least nine members of al Qaeda. Those are just some

550
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: of the most famous in the federal system. After nine

551
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: to eleven, a disproportionate percentage of Muslims, by one estimate,

552
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 2: seventy percent were incarcerated at high security prisons.

553
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 5: The federal government.

554
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: Opened EIGHTYX Florence in nineteen ninety four. Laura told me

555
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 2: that as the prison population in the United States grew

556
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: dramatically during the eighties and nineties, prisons, as you might expect,

557
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: became overcrowded, sentences were longer, inmates grew more hopeless, and

558
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: they became more violent. The idea behind opening the supermax

559
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: facility was to isolate potentially violent inmates ad X Florence

560
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: looks like a one or two story red brick building

561
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: that's built into the side of a hill. It's sort

562
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: of unassuming on the outside except for the circles of

563
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: barbed wire and the watchtower. When AmAm Jamil first arrived there,

564
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: he might have felt like he was being taken underground,

565
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: and it probably would have felt disorienting. There are a

566
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: few windows and little or no natural light.

567
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 10: In terms of what people's experiences like, kind of on

568
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 10: the way they are entering it, I think people are

569
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 10: are generally afraid, not knowing what to expect, not knowing

570
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 10: if they're going to be there forever or if they're

571
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 10: going to have any ability to get out eventually.

572
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: A mam Jamil would have been taken to his own cell.

573
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: Everyone in ADX is in solitary confinement. The atmosphere is clinical, cold, austere,

574
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 2: the way a mam Jamil put it. If Reidsville Prison

575
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 2: was run by the KKK, ADIAX Florence is run by Nazis.

576
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: He had been in solitary confinement in Reidsville Prison too,

577
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: but the conditions at ADAX Florence they were more profoundly isolating.

578
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: The prison seems designed to sever a person's access to

579
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: an influence on society. If part of what we humans

580
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: are doing as conscious beings on this earth is acting

581
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: on impulses from somewhere deep down to shape the world

582
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: around us. Adix Florence walls off those deeper portions the

583
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: souls of people. The religious might say, with thick, thick concrete,

584
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: some souls are just too dangerous. Each individual cell is

585
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: eight feet by ten feet, about three steps to get

586
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 2: from one side to the other. The walls are white

587
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: or grayish green. There's a cement platform bed, a shower,

588
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: a cement desk, a port cement stool in front of

589
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: the desk, and a TV. The cells have solid doors

590
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 2: that limit communication with anyone outside. Five days a week,

591
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: a Mammed Demal was able to spend an hour outdoors.

592
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: He was taken fully shackled to what Laura describes as

593
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: an empty swimming pool with cages dropped in it. The

594
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: view from inside the cages more concrete. A Mammed de

595
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: Meal could see the sky, maybe a plane flying overhead,

596
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: but nothing of the landscape, not even the mountains he

597
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: would have passed when he was transported to the prison.

598
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 10: There are people who have talked about going out to

599
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 10: those exercise cages and you know that somehow, there some

600
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 10: miracle of nature, some little blade of grass was growing

601
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 10: up under the cement, and you know, some of the

602
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 10: people who were in the cages at different times were

603
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 10: able to see it, and we're just so excited by

604
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 10: it because it was the only nature that they had seen.

605
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 10: I mean, you don't see anything out your window except cement. Also,

606
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 10: and you know, talked about the cruelty of one of

607
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 10: the staff coming and just pulling out this, you know,

608
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 10: one little blade of grass, and it's just so incredibly

609
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 10: evocative and symbolic to me of what the space is like.

610
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil can make two or three fifteen minute calls

611
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: each month. Sister Karma and their youngest son, Kyrie, they

612
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: came to visit him much less frequently in Colorado than

613
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: they had in Georgia. Reidsville Prison is two hundred miles

614
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: from Atlanta. Eighty X Florence is fourteen hundred. On the

615
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: days that sister Karima and Kyrie did come to ADX Florence,

616
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: a Mam Jamil was taken to the visiting area and

617
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: he sat across from them, still handcuffed and shackled, able

618
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: to speak to them through plexiglass. The visits lasted about

619
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: six hours. One day, Laura was also in the visiting

620
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: area to speak to a client and she caught a

621
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 2: glimpse of a man, Jamil.

622
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 10: He smiled and waved when he saw me. I mean,

623
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 10: I don't think he knew who I was, but you know,

624
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 10: I sort of smiled and waved back. He if you're

625
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 10: not there officially to visit a particular person, you can't

626
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 10: have any communication with them. So there was no question that,

627
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 10: you know, like I could have gone over or spoken

628
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 10: to him or done anything like that. I mean, I

629
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 10: was worried that I would potentially get in trouble even

630
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 10: for doing the wave, But it just was a bright,

631
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 10: open smile that he gave me in a friendly wave,

632
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 10: and it just, I don't know, it was just nice

633
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 10: to see him.

634
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil's body suffered because of conditions at the supermax.

635
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 2: Laura said that many people incarcerated there deal with high

636
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: blood pressure, vitamin D deficiencies, mobility issues, and they can

637
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: even lose their long distance vision because they so rarely

638
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: need to focus on anything far away. Laura worries about

639
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: all of that, but when I spoke to her, she

640
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: seemed more concerned about the psychological effects of being incarcerated

641
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: at ADX Florence. People with mental illness when they enter

642
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 2: the prison, they get sicker, some develop mental illness once

643
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: they get there. And then there are the people who

644
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: Laura can see are damaged but maybe not diagnosed. They

645
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: can't make eye contact or stay focused, and they're over

646
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 2: one or exhausted by conversations.

647
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 10: I think there's something particularly insidious about solitary that, in

648
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 10: order to survive that, you're sort of trained to not

649
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 10: need social contact anymore and everything that comes with that,

650
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 10: And so if you sort of get good enough at it,

651
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 10: it then becomes hard to do it again when it's

652
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 10: not required. This idea that like you sort of go

653
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 10: from craving it to almost being sometimes unable to tolerate

654
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 10: it at.

655
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 5: All and craving human contact.

656
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you've gone as far as using the word

657
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: torture to describe to practice. Is that something that you

658
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: still that you still believe?

659
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: Absolutely?

660
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 10: I think when people think about torture, I think they

661
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 10: think about things that seem much more obvious in terms

662
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 10: of physical manifestations. So, you know, we don't sanction pulling

663
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 10: out people's fingernails, But the mental harm and anguish that

664
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 10: solitary confinement produces in people is just as real, and

665
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 10: almost to a person. The folks that I have talked

666
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 10: with who are in solitary would trade it in an

667
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 10: instant for whatever physical punishment the state would want to dispense.

668
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,919
Speaker 10: Every one of them has talked about how much horse

669
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 10: this is.

670
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: The federal courts haven't agreed with Laura that solitary confinement

671
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: and ad explorence is cruel and unusual punishment. The practice

672
00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 2: continues today, mostly unabated. Talking to Laura and looking closely

673
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: at Adax, Florence, studying the concentrated isolating violence there, I

674
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: wonder if part of the reason that we citizens can

675
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: stomach the government carrying out violence on our behalf is

676
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: that we imagine that it stops with the person being punished,

677
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: like the harm to the deserving person is done and

678
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: there are no ripple effects. But this stuff, whether it's

679
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 2: Jimcrow sheriffs or FBI surveillance round from a semi automatic rifle,

680
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: or solitary confinement, it stays with a person etched as memory.

681
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: It stays within a family as loss. It stays within communities,

682
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: within societies, within countries, passed back and forth. If we

683
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 2: believe that they keep the public safe, we must harm

684
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: some people. Are we accounting for the ways that violence

685
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: begets more violence? All of this, I realize now was

686
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: roiling beneath the surface that night on March sixteenth, two thousand.

687
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: Some prisoners at ad Ex Florence have a path to

688
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: be transferred out to less harsh facilities, but it seemed

689
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: that because of man Jimil was technically a state prisoner,

690
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: that wasn't a possibility. He seemed to be trapped at

691
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 2: this prison at the end of the earth until his death,

692
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 2: unless maybe a new piece of evidence was found, something

693
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: that proved someone else shot the deputies.

694
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 3: I've gotten away with murder for real.

695
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, some people say, man, you get away with murder.

696
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 8: I've literally gotten away with murder.

697
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't help all.

698
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 8: The wood.

699
00:43:42,160 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: That's on the next episode of Radical. Radical is a

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00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: production of Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts. Radical

701
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: was reported and written by Johnny Kaufman and me Mosey's Secret.

702
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: Johnny Kaufman is our senior producer. Sheba Joseph is our

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00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: associate producer. Editing by Eric Benson, Johnny Coufman, Emily Martinez

704
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: and Matt Cher. Fact checking by Sophie Hurwitz, Kaylin Lynch

705
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: and Layla Dos. Original music by Kyle Murdoch and by

706
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: Ray Murray of Organized Noise. Sound design and mixing by

707
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 2: Kevin Seaman. Recording by Ewan Leed trem Ewen and Sheba Joseph.

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00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 2: Campside Media's operations team is Doug Slaywan, Ashley Warren, Eliah Papes,

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00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: Destiny Dingle and Sabina Merra. The executive producers at Campside

710
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: Media are Josh Dean Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Cher.

711
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: For Tenderfoot TV, executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay.

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00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: The executive producer is That iHeart Podcasts are Matt Frederick

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00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: and Alex Williams, with additional support from Trevor Young,