1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: The Trump administration has withdrawn pending regulatory actions to protect 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: forty two endangered species, from the green sea turtle to 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: the yellow billed cuckoo, many of which detailed how to 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: protect animals or plants already deemed to be in peril, 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: according to Office of Management and Budget data compiled by Bloomberg. 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: Environmental activists say these regulatory actions were already scheduled and 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: the US Fish and Wildlife Service is violating the law 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: and putting species at risk of extinction. The Fish and 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: Wildlife Service was also criticized by environment environmental groups last 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: week when it declined to list twenty five species, including 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: the Pacific wal rusks, as endangered. Joining us are Charles Warren, 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: the head of the environmental law practice at Cramer Leven 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: and Patrick Parento, professor of environmental law at Vermont Law School. 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Chuck explain what these regulatory actions require, what they would do. Okay, 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: There's two types of actions that you generally see under 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act June. One is the listing of 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: a species as either an endangered species one that's about 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: to go extinct, or a threatened species one that almost 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: on the verge of being endangered and So those are 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: the listing actions, and some of these involved listing actions 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: like you talked about the walrus. The other actions that 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: they take our habitat protection and that means once you 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: have one of these threatened or endangered species, you have 24 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: to take steps to protect the habitat. And those are 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: other kinds of regulations that they put out and uh, 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: needless to say, these are all controversial under have been 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: for a number of years because many people develop, real 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: estate developers, oil and gas interests and others. I think 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: that all that does is just stifle development in this 30 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: protection of habitats, and that's why it's always been a 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: controvers feel program ever since the law was enacted in 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: ninety three. So, pat, what what did the government do 33 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: here in terms of delaying these rules. Well, technically, this 34 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: was a decision by Mick mulveney, the head of the 35 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: Office of Management and Budget, which performs kind of an 36 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: oversight role on rulemakings for the government, and they put 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: out this agenda every year of the rules that are 38 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: in process, and they developed work plans for the individual agencies. 39 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: This time around, mulvaney um basically unilaterally from what we know, 40 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: not even consulting with the Vision Wildlife Service, which administers 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act, just made a decision that that 42 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: a whole slew of these rules that list species, says 43 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: Chuck was describing, um, simply wouldn't be done this year. 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: They just pulled them off of the rulemaking calendar and 45 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: put them in kind of a limbo status to be 46 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: dealt with later. And I can tell you why that's problematic. 47 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: If you like, yes, go ahead. Yeah. So the problem 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: is that the Endangerous Species Act contains some very strict deadline, 49 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: statutory deadlines written right into the law that requires that 50 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: these decisions be finalized. Once a species is proposed for listing, UM, 51 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: it has to be made final within twelve months. And 52 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: as Chuck was talking about the designation of what's called 53 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: critical habitat for those species, that has to be done 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: either at the same time of the final listing or 55 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: within a year of it. So, these statutory deadlines, it 56 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: looks like for many of these are going to be 57 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: violated by this action, which is simply gonna throw us 58 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: right back into court where we've, as Chuck was saying, 59 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: where we've been for decades, really fighting over how badly 60 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: the backlog of these listing decisions has grown. So this 61 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 1: is really self defeating even for the administration, because it's 62 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: going to mean the government, the Department of Justice official 63 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: life if they're going to have to be defending actions 64 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: which will likely have found to be illegal, which doesn't 65 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: seem to benefit anybody, Chuck. There are regulations about withdrawing regulations, 66 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: rules about withdrawing rules that we've talked about before. How 67 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: has the Trump administration been faring in court cases involving 68 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act? They haven't been faring that well, June. 69 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: You know, they've lost a number of lawsuits that have 70 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: been brought by groups that seek to protect species when 71 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: they've tried to do some of these things. And I 72 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: think they're going to continue, as Pat said, to lose 73 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: these things because they're really doing things which are against 74 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: the law. And and the the interesting thing about it 75 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: is the o MB Officer Manage and Budget procedure that 76 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: Pat talked about. That's really sort of a procedure. It 77 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: is an internal administration procedure. It's really not necessarily laid 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: out by the statute, and the Fish and Wildlife Service 79 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: and the Department of Interior have these obligations under the statute, 80 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: and you just can't sort of say, okay, just drop that. 81 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: And I think we're gonna find out, as Pat said, 82 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: that it's going to be counterproductive. So Pat, assuming that, uh, 83 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 1: this doesn't hold up, you know what what ends up happening? 84 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: What will the federal government in fact take action? I 85 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: think they're going to be forced to take action at 86 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: some point. But of course, nothing happens very fast in litigation. UM, 87 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: so it maybe months or longer before we know the 88 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: outcome here. Um. The environmental groups will be moving as 89 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: fast as they can. I'm sure that their computers are 90 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: busy typing out complaints as we speak to get into 91 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: court and to try to get the courts to intervene 92 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: in this. But the longer these species are delayed they're 93 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: listening to the data shows, the worst their condition becomes 94 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: in the harder it becomes to recover them, the more 95 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: costly it is to try to recover them. You lose 96 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: opportunities the longer you wait, and so on. So you know, 97 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: once again the best way to deal with these problems 98 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: is to try to get out in front of them 99 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: and not let them get worse and worse Chuck. So 100 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: we've been talking about the regulatory actions to protect those 101 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: forty two endangered species, but as far as the failure 102 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: to list twenty five species last week, including the Pacific 103 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: Walls as endangered, is there anything that can be done 104 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: about that in a lawsuit? Yes, because a lot of 105 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: times groups petition to have species listed, and uh as 106 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: as Pett I think was saying, before there's a clock 107 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: that starts to run on that they have to react 108 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: to the petition in a certain period of time, and 109 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: then they have to take some action. I mean, then 110 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: have they can say we refuse to list, and then 111 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: that that goes into the question of what data there 112 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: and that subject again to a lawsuit. So these are 113 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: these are also challengeable and uh I think history has 114 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: shown that a number of those things have also been 115 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: overturned in court. So it's a I think that they've 116 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: been discussions for years about trying to change the Endangered 117 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: Species Act because people find it, you know, it's a 118 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: very difficult statute to get out of, and they've been unsuccessful. 119 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: And I think there's going to be a continued effort 120 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: to do that now in this Congress, and we'll see 121 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: what happens with Anna, but I thank you it will 122 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: be successful. Thank you both for being on. You are 123 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: environmental duo Charles war On, the head of the environmental 124 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: practice at Cramer Levin and Patrick Parento, Professor of environmental 125 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: law at Vermont Law School.