WEBVTT - Live from Davos: Jonathan Haidt on The Anxious Generation and How It’s Shaping Our Workforce

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. Hey in the city, listeners,

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<v Speaker 1>it's fran Scene recording this Frankly from a closet on

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<v Speaker 1>the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Davos. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here all week interviewing global leaders, chief executives and

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<v Speaker 1>interesting voices for my TV show and for this very podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we're bringing you one of those conversations. In today's episode,

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<v Speaker 1>I sat down with Jonathan Hades at Bloomberg House and

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<v Speaker 1>Davos in front of an audience who, as you might

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<v Speaker 1>be able to hear, we're eating lunch. Ignore the clinking,

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<v Speaker 1>because my conversation with John was really interesting and really important.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a social psychologist and ethics professor at NYU Stern

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<v Speaker 1>School of Business. He's written for books, most recently The

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<v Speaker 1>Anxious Generation, How the Great rewiring of childhood is causing

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<v Speaker 1>an epidemic of mental illness. Now we talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>themes he addresses in that book, mainly how the spread

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<v Speaker 1>of smartphones and social media have led to rewiring of

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<v Speaker 1>childhood and what kind of workforce that gives you later

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<v Speaker 1>on in life.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the City of London, The City of the City,

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<v Speaker 2>the City of London Bank.

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<v Speaker 1>Please mind the gap between the tree and the platform.

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<v Speaker 2>The financial hearts of the country, the city, the city.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome in the city, stand clear of the door.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Thank you everyone. I hope you all had fun,

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<v Speaker 1>because I feel like this next conversation is will be fun,

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<v Speaker 1>but actually you'll also look at work a little bit scary. John,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for joining us. John Aid social

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<v Speaker 1>psychologists and really the man about town that everyone wants

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<v Speaker 1>to understand, and how to keep their kids off social

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<v Speaker 1>media and what that means for the workforce that these

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<v Speaker 1>chief executives have to manage. So John, I mean you

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<v Speaker 1>basically wrote this book that's really everyone's trying to read,

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<v Speaker 1>The Anxious Generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is

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<v Speaker 1>causing an epidemic of mental illness. Then that translates into

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<v Speaker 1>life for the people that become of course, the workforce

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<v Speaker 1>of the chief executives are tomorrow. I mean, how bad

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<v Speaker 1>is it?

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<v Speaker 2>So first, I just sort of understood ten minutes of

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<v Speaker 2>eight minutes ago that this was a live talk in

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<v Speaker 2>front of all of you, So actually this is like, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>it it's pretty cool. I'm very glad to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to you directly. I thought we were just

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<v Speaker 2>doing a podcast. And second, how many of you raise

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<v Speaker 2>your hand in this room? If you have any children

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<v Speaker 2>under the age of ten, raise your hand. Okay, you

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<v Speaker 2>guys are gonna love this talk. This is just what

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<v Speaker 2>you are waiting for. How many of you have kids

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<v Speaker 2>between fourteen and twenty eight raise your hand. Okay, you're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna have much more mixed feelings. But all of you

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<v Speaker 2>have gen Z kids. If your kids were born after

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<v Speaker 2>nine in nineteen ninety six or later, then your kids

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<v Speaker 2>are gen Z, very different from the millennials. And when

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<v Speaker 2>you say, just how bad is it? So, the way

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<v Speaker 2>to understand this is if you look at the graphs

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<v Speaker 2>of teen mental health. We have very good data in

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<v Speaker 2>the US, and we've collected from many other countries in

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<v Speaker 2>the US, at least in the UK. From the late

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<v Speaker 2>nineties through twenty ten to twenty eleven, there's no sign

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<v Speaker 2>of a trend, pretty stable, whether you're looking at depression, anxiety,

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<v Speaker 2>self harm, all those rates, no big change, and then

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<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden in twenty twelve, it's as though

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<v Speaker 2>someone flipped on a light switch in Menlo Park, California,

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<v Speaker 2>and all of those numbers go shooting up. Especially for girls.

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<v Speaker 2>For girls, it's a very sharp elbow. For boys, it's

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<v Speaker 2>more gradual. A quarter of American girls say that they

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<v Speaker 2>have made a suicide plan. They've actually gotten to the

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<v Speaker 2>point of they think about suicide often, and they've actually

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<v Speaker 2>made a plan. Not that they've made an attempt, but

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<v Speaker 2>being sad, anxious, and thinking about suicide is a normal

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<v Speaker 2>part of being an American teen. Now. It was not

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<v Speaker 2>like this in twenty ten. So, especially when we look

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<v Speaker 2>at anxiety, depression and self harm and suicide, we see,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, the greatest destruction of human capital and human

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<v Speaker 2>potential in human history. Now, okay, leaving aside the two

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<v Speaker 2>World wars, it's hard to compare, but the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>this is global. Oh and I wrote the whole book

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<v Speaker 2>focusing on mental illness, on the mental health problems, and

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<v Speaker 2>only since the book came out did I realize that

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<v Speaker 2>the attention devastation, the inability to pay attention. In the

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<v Speaker 2>long run, it's probably going to be even a bigger

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<v Speaker 2>deal and more important for business. So when we look

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<v Speaker 2>at mental health, when we look at the ability to

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<v Speaker 2>tend to think about something for five minutes, and also

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<v Speaker 2>the social relationships and the ability to be a reliable

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<v Speaker 2>employee or spouse. It's going to be rough.

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<v Speaker 1>John, because this basically changes the vortex. Right, if you

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<v Speaker 1>start scrolling as a young team as a tweet, and

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<v Speaker 1>it changes the way your brain is wine.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, right, Because so the human brain is at

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<v Speaker 2>ninety percent of its full size when you're six years old,

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<v Speaker 2>and everything beyond that is like, you know, some stuff

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<v Speaker 2>goes away, some stuff tunes up based on practice. Neurons

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<v Speaker 2>that fire together wire together, and so if you're practicing skills,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're playing, if you're doing chores, your brain develops

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<v Speaker 2>in a normal way. But if instead we say have

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<v Speaker 2>that instead of attending to the adults around you and

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<v Speaker 2>the older kids that you're copying. Instead of that, how

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<v Speaker 2>about you just do this all day long and you

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<v Speaker 2>are socialized and your brain the transition is managed by

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<v Speaker 2>weirdos on the internet who were selected by other people

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<v Speaker 2>for their emotional extremity, and then the algorithm fed them

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<v Speaker 2>to your child. And so this is completely insane what

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<v Speaker 2>we've done. We've basically blocked human development by putting kids

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<v Speaker 2>on screens. In America, fifty percent of our kids say

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<v Speaker 2>that they are online almost constantly. The phone is always

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<v Speaker 2>in their hand. If they're waiting for an elevator, the

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<v Speaker 2>phone comes out. If they're in the bathroom, the phone

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<v Speaker 2>comes out. The iPhone is now waterproof. Some take it

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<v Speaker 2>into the shower. If there's a lull in conversation, the

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<v Speaker 2>phone comes out. It's very difficult for them to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with anything that's a little bit boring.

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<v Speaker 1>So what does the you know, what do colleges, what

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<v Speaker 1>do achieve executives? What do recruitment agencies need to do

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<v Speaker 1>to either communicate differently or train them differently once they

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<v Speaker 1>come of age?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so okay, so here, what I'd like to do

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<v Speaker 2>is give you I can give you advice based on

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<v Speaker 2>what I saw in university campuses, because they hit us

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<v Speaker 2>first in twenty fifteen. That's in twenty thirteen, there was

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<v Speaker 2>no sign of this, or twenty twelve, no sign of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And by twenty fifteen, some of you might remember, because

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<v Speaker 2>it happened all over the English speaking world, huge protests

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<v Speaker 2>over microaggressions. Someone said something and it becomes a whole

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<v Speaker 2>big issue. That so it just what we saw on

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<v Speaker 2>campus is students getting very upset about what seemed to

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<v Speaker 2>be small things that previous generations would just sort of

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<v Speaker 2>say like, oh, he's stupid or whatever. And the way

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<v Speaker 2>we managed on campus was exactly wrong, and you should

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<v Speaker 2>don't do You should learn from our mistakes and don't

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<v Speaker 2>do what we did. What we did was we completely

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<v Speaker 2>accommodated them. And it's in part because these were a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of them. It was about identity issues, race, LGBTQ, gender,

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<v Speaker 2>So we don't have the moral on campus. We're all

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<v Speaker 2>on the left. Everyone's on the left. You know, there

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<v Speaker 2>are some conservatives, but they're in the closet. So we

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<v Speaker 2>did not have the moral resources to say, now, wait

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<v Speaker 2>a second, you know, is this really true, the thing

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<v Speaker 2>you're saying. We had to completely validate everything, accommodate to it.

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<v Speaker 2>We put in biased response lines. There are signs in

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<v Speaker 2>the bathrooms at my university for how to report me

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<v Speaker 2>if they if they think anything I've said is biased,

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<v Speaker 2>and so encouraging a culture of snitching and reporting is

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<v Speaker 2>a terrible thing to do. So don't do what we did. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>What happened is once, especially once George. So, when when

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<v Speaker 2>The College American Mind came out twenty eighteen, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people said, oh, come on, this is just college

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<v Speaker 2>kids being college and think we're not able to do

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<v Speaker 2>this at Goldman Sachs. I'm not able to do this,

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<v Speaker 2>you know at Google. Well, actually they did, and the

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<v Speaker 2>progressive industries, especially knowledge work industries, really accommoded. Manufacturing didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think if you're hiring from elite universities, and

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<v Speaker 2>especially if you're in media, entertainment, advertising, they did accommodate.

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<v Speaker 2>And so sorry for this long explanation, but to get

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<v Speaker 2>back to practical lessons, leadership always requires you to define

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<v Speaker 2>the culture. And what social media has done is it

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<v Speaker 2>has shredded any common understanding and it has allowed everyone

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<v Speaker 2>to make a bid to control the culture. And universities

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<v Speaker 2>we allowed the students to set the culture. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>why American universities have committed the greatest act of brand

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<v Speaker 2>destruction in American history. We used to be so respecting

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<v Speaker 2>twenty fifteen. Now our brand is in the toilet because

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<v Speaker 2>of the stupid things that we did. And so you

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<v Speaker 2>have to set the culture, which means don't give in,

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<v Speaker 2>don't accommodate. Now do listen to them. Every generation brings complaints,

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<v Speaker 2>and some of them are right, like, for example, why

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<v Speaker 2>should bankers work one hundred hours a week, gen Z

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<v Speaker 2>is saying, we don't want to do that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think they're probably right. So listen to them, talk to them,

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<v Speaker 2>but don't be very wary of accommodating. And you have

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<v Speaker 2>to define the culture. And the keyword you need is

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<v Speaker 2>anti fragility. So anti fragility refers to the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>humans are not actually fragile, that, especially young people, we

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<v Speaker 2>need setbacks and challenges and problems and then we grow

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<v Speaker 2>by overcoming them. And so if you say, if you

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<v Speaker 2>say I want you to succeed in this job, I

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<v Speaker 2>want you to grow. So I'll give you a choice.

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<v Speaker 2>I can either give you feedback the way many do,

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<v Speaker 2>where we're afraid of hurting your feelings and we're afraid

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<v Speaker 2>you'll freak out and I'll be very gentle, but I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think that's really what you want. The other way

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<v Speaker 2>we can do this is I'm going to give you

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<v Speaker 2>tough feedback. I'm going to tell you everything that I

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<v Speaker 2>think you did wrong because I want to help you.

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<v Speaker 2>I want you to succeed. And what I find is

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<v Speaker 2>I teach undergrads and NBA students at at y U Stern.

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<v Speaker 2>What I find I give them that question, which one

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<v Speaker 2>would you want one hundred percent every year, say give

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<v Speaker 2>me the hard feedback. But if you don't preface it,

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<v Speaker 2>if it's just you give hard feedback, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>them are going to feel very hurt, and many of

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<v Speaker 2>them will ghost you. They will leave without even saying goodbye.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have to understand this is not their fault

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<v Speaker 2>at all, no blame. Don't make fun of them as

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<v Speaker 2>we often do, you know, behind the scenes, both in

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<v Speaker 2>the academy and in business. Understand that we blocked their childhood.

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<v Speaker 2>We kept them on screens. We didn't let them go

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<v Speaker 2>out and play and get in arguments and settle as

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<v Speaker 2>arguments themselves. And this is the result. But especially in

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<v Speaker 2>their early twenties, there's a lot they can still grow

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. Late twenties is a little harder because the

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<v Speaker 2>brain is kind of locked down by then, But early

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<v Speaker 2>twenties there's still a lot of room for growth.

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<v Speaker 1>John is the third party fact checking the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>that's being removed in a lot of platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>What does that? What are the implications of that? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, just approaching it from the outside, you think, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>well that's terrible. Now it's just going to be you know,

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<v Speaker 2>random and that was my first reaction. But I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to a couple of people who know a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>about meta and this area, and what one of my

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<v Speaker 2>friends said is, actually the fact checking wasn't working very

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<v Speaker 2>well because it tends to be as it always it

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<v Speaker 2>tends to be just progressive progressives saying that's false, but

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<v Speaker 2>things on our side are true. And of course that

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<v Speaker 2>was part of the big complaint during COVID that the

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<v Speaker 2>Biden administration was working with the social media companies to

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<v Speaker 2>suppress right wing ideas, and it's true that actually happened,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the right completely does not trust the left,

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<v Speaker 2>and the left over and over again does what it

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<v Speaker 2>can to betray the trust.

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<v Speaker 1>But how do you see the visions? I mean, societies

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<v Speaker 1>are pretty divided. Do you see that divide being better?

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's going to get worse and worse forever, I

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<v Speaker 2>think forever, or is there I can't say forever? What

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<v Speaker 2>I can say so in general, my suspicion, my suspicion

0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.439
<v Speaker 2>is that this year is the calmest, most sane and

0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.680
<v Speaker 2>normal year that will ever have and that will be

0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.760
<v Speaker 2>true ever you're going forward, because so I began to

0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.240
<v Speaker 2>think this before we were all thinking about AI. I'm

0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.960
<v Speaker 2>a social psychologist and looking at the conditions for democracy.

0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.199
<v Speaker 2>Founding fathers of the United States knew that democracy always

0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.840
<v Speaker 2>blows up. You don't want the people and their passions

0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.600
<v Speaker 2>to be swayed by demagogues, and so in America we

0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.000
<v Speaker 2>don't have a democracy by design. We have a republic

0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.360
<v Speaker 2>with democratic elements. And that was predicated in the idea

0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.000
<v Speaker 2>that information moves slowly, and if something terrible happens in Boston,

0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.000
<v Speaker 2>it's going to take weeks for it to reach Washington,

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.000
<v Speaker 2>or a week or two. So all of our suppositions

0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.319
<v Speaker 2>about democratic discussion are out the window now that everything's

0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.439
<v Speaker 2>on Twitter and x and other forms of social media.

0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.920
<v Speaker 2>So I think, especially the American form is going to

0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:35.840
<v Speaker 2>be sorely tested, and I don't know that it's going

0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:37.880
<v Speaker 2>to hold. I think we might have to have major

0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.960
<v Speaker 2>change in reinvention. I don't know that the American project

0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.439
<v Speaker 2>is going to the American experiment is going to continue

0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.320
<v Speaker 2>in its present form. There are other countries I don't

0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.600
<v Speaker 2>know enough about. There may be much more stability elsewhere.

0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.719
<v Speaker 2>But my point is, if you think about a community

0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.640
<v Speaker 2>that is trying imperfectly to get at truth, or public opinion.

0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 2>We're not going to get that again for a long time. Now.

0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 2>The digital technology in the theory could give us the

0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.480
<v Speaker 2>best democracies ever, and so there's a real possibility that

0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 2>we go through ten to fifty years of chaos and

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 2>disruption as when the printing press came in, and then

0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.040
<v Speaker 2>fifty years from now we have the most amazing societies ever.

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Is that's my hope. But we're not going to get

0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.040
<v Speaker 2>It's not going to come in five or ten years.

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:21.280
<v Speaker 2>It's going to take a lot longer than that, is

0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 2>my prediction. Nobody knows. I don't want to be too

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.680
<v Speaker 2>confident here, but as a social psychologist, I think the

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.040
<v Speaker 2>conditions for the liberal democracies of the Gutenberg era based

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.840
<v Speaker 2>on text are now not holding.

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.040
<v Speaker 1>I did warn everyone it was going to be a

0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:36.080
<v Speaker 1>depressing conversation.

0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.280
<v Speaker 2>It's exciting, I hope, right. This is all about the future.

0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Pressing John.

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.520
<v Speaker 1>When you see how close Elon Musk is to President Trump,

0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.920
<v Speaker 1>how Mark Zuckerberg is close to President Trump, what does

0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 1>that mean for regulation?

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god? I mean in America, we've always had

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the problem that you can buy influence so cheap. It's

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.920
<v Speaker 2>so cheap to give money to a campaign, and we

0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:58.800
<v Speaker 2>have you know, we have all these problems about money

0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 2>and politics. Those have been there my whole life, and

0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>now suddenly it's like exponentially worse. And the fact that

0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>the President of the United States launched his own cryptocurrency,

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the Dave. I mean, this is completely insane. This is

0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:18.880
<v Speaker 2>complete corruption, This should be completely illegal. And but so

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 2>much stuff is going on that, like, you know, we

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.480
<v Speaker 2>don't even know what to object to. So the fact

0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 2>that the richest and one of the most powerful men

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>in the world is now such a powerful man in

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 2>terms of policies that will affect his own company. I

0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.080
<v Speaker 2>greatly admire the man. He is a benefactor of humanity

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.520
<v Speaker 2>for the major things he's doing. But my god, I

0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 2>mean it's just you know, democracy or government one oh

0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 2>one is you know, you don't just like let the

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 2>major people who run industries write their own laws with

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the backing of the executive I mean, so it's we're

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 2>in for a wild ride, That's what I'm telling you.

0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 2>It's going to get a lot weirder.

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.800
<v Speaker 1>What's TikTok? Is TikTok a test on what happens to TikTok?

0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Absolutely, I mean TikTok is such a national security threat,

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and it's not just because of the privacy and the data.

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.720
<v Speaker 2>That's what the court case focused on. I have an

0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 2>essay up on my substack go to afterbabtle dot com

0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.120
<v Speaker 2>titled TikTok is harming kids at an industrial scale. We

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.080
<v Speaker 2>just took quotes from company employees, just their own words

0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.360
<v Speaker 2>that came out in legal briefs because they're being sued

0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.520
<v Speaker 2>by a lot of states, just their own words. They

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>know they are addicting kids, they're exposing them to sexual predation.

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's horrible what this company is doing to

0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 2>American kids, not to Chinese kids. Douyenne is much more healthy,

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>but the version they give us is by design addictive

0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.520
<v Speaker 2>and stupefying. And this is a national security threat. So

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.640
<v Speaker 2>I cannot believe that Trump is going to reverse this.

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh wait, a second policy doesn't matter. Money talks, okay, John.

0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.480
<v Speaker 1>We also have actually our very own well thing that

0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 1>we're putting out by Olivia Carville, and this is something

0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.160
<v Speaker 1>that we're want to alert it to. It's called It's

0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 1>a documentary You Can't Look Away, and it talks about

0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.960
<v Speaker 1>the transformative effects of social media on mental health. So

0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.240
<v Speaker 1>what would you do for your own kids, depending on

0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.080
<v Speaker 1>how old they are? No social media.

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Unto Yeah, right, So let me give you the four norms.

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>The reason that we're so lost in this is because

0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.840
<v Speaker 2>each of us, as individual parents, try to do something

0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 2>and then our kids says the magic phrase, what is it? Please? Mom?

0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm the own No, mom, I'm the only one. I'm

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the only one who doesn't have a smartphone only with

0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 2>the kids are making fun of me. I'm excluded. So

0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 2>we're caught in a collective action trap. We each give in,

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:32.400
<v Speaker 2>which makes it harder for everybody else to do the

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 2>right thing. So the way out is collective action. That's

0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:36.880
<v Speaker 2>what my book is about. And that's I think why

0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.800
<v Speaker 2>the book is doing so well. Is am I just saying,

0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, look at all the problems and saying, actually,

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.480
<v Speaker 2>once we understand how we got here, we can get

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.200
<v Speaker 2>out if many or most of us do four things here.

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.920
<v Speaker 2>It is no smartphone until high school in the US

0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.560
<v Speaker 2>or fourteen, let's say, no smartphone before age fourteen. Let

0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>them have a flip phone. You can text with them.

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 2>You can't be on a flip phone twelve hours a day,

0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 2>but a smartphone. Half of your kids will be on

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 2>smartphone fourteen hours a day. So no smart before fourteen,

0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>no social media before sixteen. What age should kids be

0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.200
<v Speaker 2>when they start talking to sextortionists and child molesters around

0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 2>the world. I think sixteen is probably, you know, maybe higher,

0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:20.919
<v Speaker 2>but at least sixteen. The third norm is phone free schools,

0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.360
<v Speaker 2>and this one is happening all over the world really rapidly.

0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 2>Brazil just announced they're going to do it. So if

0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:28.760
<v Speaker 2>your kids go to school where the kids can have

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:30.199
<v Speaker 2>access to their phones during the day and you can

0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.359
<v Speaker 2>text them, your kid is not getting a good education.

0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Your kid is getting much worse education because they can't

0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.119
<v Speaker 2>pay attention to even to their friends. And then the

0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.360
<v Speaker 2>fourth norm is far more free play, independence and responsibility

0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 2>in the real world. All of us almost let me

0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:46.640
<v Speaker 2>just ask you, how old were you when you could

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 2>go out on your bicycle and go see your friends

0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.159
<v Speaker 2>just yell it out? Around What age did you get independence?

0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.639
<v Speaker 2>Just yell it out? Yeah, six to eight is if

0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.800
<v Speaker 2>five six eight, that's when we all got it. The

0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.400
<v Speaker 2>world is so much safer now than it was when

0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:00.719
<v Speaker 2>we were growing up. So many of us grew up

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.080
<v Speaker 2>in America during a crime wave. So the world's gotten

0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>much safer, but we don't trust our neighbors. Again, not

0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 2>in all European countries, but in the Anglo countries. We

0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.560
<v Speaker 2>don't trust our neighbors. We don't trust our kids to

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 2>go out, and that's part of why they spend their

0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.720
<v Speaker 2>whole lives on screens. We've got to give them back

0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.440
<v Speaker 2>an exciting, fun in person childhood. And that's the hardest

0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.280
<v Speaker 2>one because that's the one we have to give up

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.679
<v Speaker 2>something and we have to be a little afraid. And

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 2>then after a few times, you realize, wait, my kid

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.200
<v Speaker 2>can ride his bicycle to a friend's house and come back.

0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.800
<v Speaker 1>John, thanks you so much for joining us. John Hayde

0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.440
<v Speaker 1>there joining us on the Anxious Generation.

0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, USA.

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to this episode In the City from Bloomberg.

0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 1>It was hosted by Me from sin Laqua was produced

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.640
<v Speaker 1>by Summer Saudi and Moses and Dam. Sound designed by

0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Blake Maples. Brendan frances Human is our executive producer. Special

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.560
<v Speaker 1>thanks to Jonathan Hayde. Please subscribe, rate, and review wherever

0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.760
<v Speaker 1>you listen to podcasts.