1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. In the nineteen sixties, which was 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: a convulsive period in American history, one major story seemed 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: to play on and on with no end in sight, 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: the War in Vietnam. When that war officially ended in 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, journalists, artists, and public broadcasting began to 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: conduct the autopsy. The result produced films like nineteen seventy 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: Eight's Coming Home, nineteen seventy nine Apocalypse Now, and a 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: PBS series first broadcast in nineteen eighty three, Vietnam a 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: Television History. Over the course of thirteen hours, the program 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: dug deep into the background, cost and toll taken on 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: the principal figures involved in the war. 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: Thirty years after the first American died in Vietnam, the 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: last Americans were leaving, waiting on the US embassy roof 15 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: to be flown to safety. The long war was ending 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: in the defeat of the South Vietnamese state that America 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: had supported for two decades. What kind of peace finally 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: was at hand? What would be the meaning of peace? 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: My guest today is Judith Vecchioni, an Emmy and Peabody 20 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: winning producer of that series. Vecchione has worked in documentary 21 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: programming with Boston based PBS station WGBH since the seventies 22 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: and has been an executive producer there for twenty three years. 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: Her career has encompassed programs like Frontline and American Experience, 24 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: documentary films like Blood, Sugar Rising, and the Peabody winning 25 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: doc series Eyes on the Prize. I wanted to know 26 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: what Vecchione's upbringing was like and how her home environment 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: influenced her career path. 28 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: I grew up in a politically very aware household. My 29 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: father read the newspaper from cover to cover, The New 30 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 3: York Times cover to cover every day, and we talked 31 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: about what was going on, and so the big issues 32 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: of the day, civil rights, the Vietnam War were live 33 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 3: topics in my family. My parents worked with civil rights 34 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 3: organizations making sure our community was not dismantling the housing 35 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 3: discrimination in our suburban community. But what area of was 36 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 3: this in south shore of Long Island? Where what town 37 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 3: from Massapequa. I'm from Merrick, so you were in the 38 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: south shore of the Island. 39 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: Was your dad? Was your writer? 40 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: He should have been, but he did not end up 41 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: doing that. He should have been He should have been 42 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: an academic. Actually, I think the politics of the day 43 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 3: for people who were very progressive made that hard. And 44 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: my mother was a teacher, a school math teacher who 45 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 3: I had for math actually, and luckily it's a subject 46 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 3: where you get the answers right or you get them wrong, 47 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 3: and so there's no favoriteism. Nobody ever got worried about 48 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: whether mom was being nice to me, and half the 49 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: class called her mom anyway. 50 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: So when you leave, you go off to Yale, and 51 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: as you head off to New Haven, was there a plan? 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: Was there something you wanted to study? And what was that? 53 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing is that I'm in the first 54 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 3: class of women at Yale, the first matriculating class. So 55 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: I don't know that I knew what I was going 56 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: to study at that time. I was interested in languages. 57 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: I was interested in history, and I ended up being 58 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: a linguistics major, which probably wasn't the most useful thing 59 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 3: to study. But it's such a rich environment, you know, 60 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: in these big universities, you get great education. I'm not 61 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: sure I took full advantage of it. It was the 62 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: middle of the Vietnam War. There was a lot going on, 63 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: and Yale was very unprepared for us, for the women. 64 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: How so, well they fifty years later, this is like 65 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: five years ago, they invited the first women back. So 66 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 3: that's my class plus the two transferred classes. And they 67 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: admitted that they just did it in a hurry to 68 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: beat Princeton to co education. And I felt a lot 69 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 3: better once they said, you know, we really didn't think 70 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: about anything except well, what we'll paint some bathrooms for 71 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 3: you or something. But there were no You have to 72 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 3: think about when you arrive in an environment like that 73 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 3: a university, you expect the upper class people to guide you, 74 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 3: to help you. You expect the teachers to know where 75 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: to draw. They didn't know what. Nobody knew what to do. 76 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: All the upper class women were as new as we were. 77 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: It was a real pioneering experience. 78 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: Is sixty nine. 79 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 3: We arrived in six and. 80 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: That class were you as incoming freshmen and people who 81 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: had transferred, who were upper class people as well, right 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: transfer as well. 83 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: So graduating classes of seventy three, minds seventy two and 84 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: seventy one. But they came from you know, Vasser and 85 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 3: from NYU and wherever. They didn't know Yale. They didn't 86 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: know the professors. Nobody could say to you those key 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: things of don't take this class, take that one. You 88 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 3: know this. If you got a choice of teaching assistance, 89 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 3: go with this one. It was, as I say, a 90 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: tremendously rich environment. There was more than enough for anybody. 91 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 3: But I know that the later classes had it easier 92 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: than we did. 93 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: When you leave Yale with a linguistics degree, what's the 94 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: plan then? Was you you had never no filmmaking? Had 95 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: you done a minor in film? No? 96 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: By that point I did have a plan though, Okay, 97 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 3: which is my last semester. I got out in seven 98 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: semesters instead of eightsters in part because I always had 99 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: siblings in school. It was in college, so it was 100 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 3: it was expensive for my family, even with scholarships and things. 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: And my last semester I discovered I had extra credits 102 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 3: that nobody had mentioned to me, and I could take 103 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: something fun instead of all my major classes. And I said, 104 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 3: I think I'll take this class in video what the 105 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 3: heck in the Art and Architecture building. And it got 106 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 3: there and they had cameras the size of refrigerators, giant cameras. 107 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 3: It was two inch videotape that you were recording on, 108 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 3: so basically couldn't edit. And we took pictures of each 109 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: other that first day, you know, videos of each other. 110 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 3: And I had two enormous light bulb moments, light bulb 111 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 3: over the head moments where I said, I need to 112 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 3: do this, this is what I should be doing. I 113 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 3: had been doing radio rock and roll, news radio, that 114 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: sort of thing at WYBC GBH community station. I covered 115 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 3: the panther trials and then the riots around that before 116 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 3: there were those in New Haven. New Haven had a 117 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: black panther trial. Yeah, there was an event and they 118 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 3: came and then there was a trial after that event 119 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: on May Day, there was an event, But. 120 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: What about it? Did you have the light bulb moment? 121 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: Meaning when you're there? We used to have a joke 122 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: We did a TV show where the guy in the 123 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: period was period television, and he's drunk or he's halluciny 124 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: or something and he turns to the producers into producer 125 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: and says, why are those people pointing those ovens at me? 126 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: Meeting the camerace They were so gigantic, But what instide 127 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: when you're inside that environment? Because you go on to 128 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: go ahead and have this obviously amazing career. What was 129 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: the light bulb moment? What was attractive? 130 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: I think it was telling stories that were real and 131 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: that mattered to people, that these were important things that 132 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 3: were happening around us, and there were ways of telling 133 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 3: those stories that had impact and that were creatively satisfying. 134 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 3: I mean I had done art before, painting and so forth, 135 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 3: and it just it fed those same brain cells for 136 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: me that I did, and it had impact. It had reasons, 137 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: so reasons to do it that were not just entertainment 138 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 3: or selling toothpaste, which is why, of course I went 139 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: for public television, not to commercial television. 140 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: So that was the beachhead was public television and stuff. 141 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: That's where you started. 142 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I started at GBH and I stayed there for 143 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 3: almost my entire career. I mean I left once or twice, 144 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 3: but came back because public media is where you do documentaries. 145 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: I mean, now there's HBO, but HBO does what five 146 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 3: ten documentaries a year. They're wonderful, but that's not what 147 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: they really do, whereas Frontline does forty a year, right, 148 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: and American Experience does another you know, ten or fifteen. 149 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 3: I don't know what they do. Pov is still on 150 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 3: independent lens. Through GBH. I've worked with the POV people, 151 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: I've worked with the independent lens people, so those are 152 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 3: the independent filmmakers, which is where I am now mostly focused. 153 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: But I've also worked with Frontline, Nova, American Experience and 154 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: all the background ones, and that brings in an enormous 155 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 3: cadre of incredibly talented people that you get to learn from. 156 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: I can't tell you the number of people who I've gone, Oh, Now, 157 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: I understand why we do these things this way. And 158 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: I also have a I'm old enough that my career 159 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: spans from film to digital. So when we started, Vietnam 160 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: was shot on film. My fire film was shot on film, 161 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: and that's way later. So you're you're kind of in 162 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 3: the midst of really smart, dedicated people. 163 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: Now when you when you arrive at GBH. The CPB 164 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: is formed in sixty seven, and before you have a 165 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: government centralized funding mechanism for public broadcasting and in this 166 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: case obviously a public TV. I'm wondering if they were 167 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: off on their own, doing their own thing and raising 168 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: the money. 169 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think the system was formulated 170 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 3: after the Carnegie Commission report that they said. 171 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: We need to have MINO, that's right. 172 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 3: We need to have a federally supported system that could 173 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 3: be independent and could be therefore able to cover topics 174 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 3: that commercial stations needing to fill a bottom line and 175 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: pay stockholders and so forth that they couldn't do. 176 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: So when you show up at GBH and maybe everything 177 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: is concretizing at the same time and congealing at the 178 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: same time, what was the terrain like, you're a woman, Yes, 179 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: you have a degree from Yale, so that's a good thing. 180 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: Did you get in there and roll up your sieves 181 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: and start working or are you making coffee for a year? 182 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: Or what happened? 183 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 3: At first? I was a part time vacation replacement secretary, 184 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 3: and I worked in the design department, which, as I remember, 185 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: it was pretty self contained and had a photographer and 186 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: a photography studio. And this is pre digital. There's not 187 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 3: even three quarter inch tapes, so you know, it's mostly 188 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 3: serving news and local very labor intensive, very labor intensive, 189 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: and I didn't have a lot to do except observe, 190 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: learn and watch the Watergate hearings. It's a good summer 191 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 3: to be employed there. And then I worked for the 192 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: Finance Department and then I saw some people. I continued 193 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: to do these fill in replacement stuff and I saw 194 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 3: these people in the cafeteria waving their fingers about and 195 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 3: I looked at them and I said, what are you doing? 196 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 3: And they said, we're learning sign language because we're going 197 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: to start the first captioning for the deaf and we 198 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: need to know how to speak to our deaf employees. 199 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 3: And I said, languages, linguistics. I'm interested in this, and 200 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: they said, well, you know, we meet when we can. 201 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: And I said, you know, i'm a secretary in the 202 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: finance department or something. They'll let me take lunch at 203 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 3: three if that's when you do it. They don't care 204 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 3: when I take lunch. And I went in and I 205 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: learned to sign, not fluently but enough. And when they 206 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 3: had trouble recruiting someone for a deaf person, they intended 207 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: to have a certain number of people, one of whom 208 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: was deaf, doing this job. And it took them longer 209 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: than anticipated to get the first deaf person to pay 210 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: attention because it was it was untried captioning. So they 211 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: hired me as the non deaf replacement for the deaf people, 212 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 3: and that was again an excellent learning process. It was writing. 213 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 3: Because you were writing, you were taking the ABC Evening 214 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 3: News and writing it into caption language and putting it 215 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 3: in computers. Early computers again, the size of refrigerators extremely slow. 216 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 3: And when things went wrong and the machines broke down, 217 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: we had a sign language interpreter who'd show up in 218 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: the little corner of the screen and do it. 219 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: And between when you start these beginnings at GBH and 220 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: when you become part of your first project that you're 221 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: on the crew, you're helping to write, you're helping to produce, 222 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: whatever your contribution. I'm assuming you didn't direct right out 223 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: of the gate, right, so you get what's the first 224 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: filmed project? Or I guess so it's all filmed back then, 225 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: what's the first filmed project you work on? 226 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: What year was that I went over to Nova from 227 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 3: captioning and I would say would be like seventy six 228 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 3: that I. 229 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: Now you think three years and you were Nova doing 230 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: what I was. 231 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 3: A production assistant, mostly doing post so learning how you 232 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: mix in film and how you taking care of bringing 233 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: in narrators and contracting and so forth, you putting it together, 234 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 3: started producing promos. A very good learning experience if you 235 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: got to tell people why they should watch this film 236 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: on wolves in thirty seconds? What are you going to 237 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 3: put up there? I had very good mentors there, some 238 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 3: of whom came over from the BBC because they had 239 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: been doing the Horizon Science series, which was an inspiration 240 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: for Nova. Nova was the first big national project that 241 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: GBH did, and it was clear at that point that 242 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 3: the person who was running National Productions was interested in 243 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: expanding the national series the documentary series, and so Nova 244 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 3: and then World, which was the predecessor to Frontline, and 245 00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 3: then American Experience all came in under that for ten 246 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 3: year period. 247 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: So you're doing post and it seems like, and I 248 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: don't want to be too you know, polite or whatever, 249 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: but it seems like did you feel that everywhere you 250 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: when people saw that you had it in terms of 251 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: the capacity to do this work? Because the business relies 252 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: on mentoring. The business relies on someone who's in a 253 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: more powerful position than you are, turning to you and going, 254 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: let's go. You're going to come with us and we're 255 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: going to go on the shoot together. Right, what's the 256 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: first film you make? You go and shoot? 257 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: I was a PA at Nova in post production and 258 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: they would occasionally need somebody to go out in a 259 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 3: field on a production for them. And there was a 260 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: film that was done on very early genetic engineering, and 261 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 3: I became the PA on that one, and I traveled 262 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: with the two producers. This was, you know, back in 263 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 3: the day when crews were bigger. You had generally a 264 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: producer and associate producer and a production assistant, plus your 265 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: three person camera sound team going out. Nowadays it would 266 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: be maybe two people with the equipment that we have 267 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: and the ability to do things remotely. So that was 268 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: one of the early ones, the genetic engineering. 269 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: Film were most of the people involved in that project 270 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: and the early projects you became a part of after that, 271 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: was it mostly men? 272 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 3: Mostly? Yes, mostly, But actually on that film there were 273 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: co producers and it was a man and a woman, 274 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: and the woman actually eventually became Nova's executive producer, pla Apsel. 275 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 3: But GBH, I thought was always pretty friendly to women. 276 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: There weren't as many women at the very top levels 277 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 3: for a while. Now there are, and in fact GBH 278 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 3: now has its first woman CEO as of last year. 279 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: And I would say it's more women than men in 280 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 3: production at GBH. I'm not sure that's true across the 281 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: system for public broadcasting, and it certainly I don't think 282 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 3: I'm not part of the larger commercial world. It's not true. 283 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 3: It's certainly true in the independent world that it doesn't 284 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 3: matter whether you're not really being downgraded. 285 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: Yes or No is the first film you make? Correct? 286 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, that might have been, and that's for World, the 287 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: predecessor for Frontline. And I did that one in Canada, 288 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 3: and I'm the producer. I'm not the director on that. 289 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 3: The director is Michael ruba. 290 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: What was the topic of Yes or No? What was 291 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: it about? 292 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 3: This was in the period when Quebec was looking to 293 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 3: secede from Canada. Yes, and Michael Rubau knew this impersonator, 294 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: an impressionist named Jean Gui Moreau and Jeanie did impressions 295 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: of rone Levec, the premiere of Quebeco was the great 296 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: driver for secession. And Jeanque Morovo was so well known 297 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: in French Canada. This is not an experience I had 298 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: had before. You'd walk through the streets of Montreal or wherever, 299 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 3: and little girls would faint in front of you. Oh 300 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 3: my god, it's Janqui. He's so well known, he's so 301 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 3: wonderful and Seanki decided he would take his show to 302 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: Toronto to see if it would play there. So it 303 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 3: was about the difference between French and English Canada told 304 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 3: through this story of Shunky's journey. 305 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: I've got to get a copy of that. That sounds amazing, 306 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: documentary producer Judith Decioni. If you enjoy conversations with brilliant 307 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: documentary filmmakers, be sure to check out my episode with 308 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: director and producer Rory Kennedy. 309 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 4: I love Boeing and what Boeing stood for in this country, 310 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 4: and we really celebrate that in the film because it's 311 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 4: been an extraordinary company for decades. You know, it helped 312 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 4: us get out of World War Two, it helped get 313 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 4: us to the moon with my uncle Jack, and for 314 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 4: many decades, Bowing did one thing, which was to say, 315 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 4: we're going to prioritize excellence and safety. And the McDonald 316 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 4: douglas people were put in charge and they had a 317 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 4: very different business model, which was very Wall Street focused. 318 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Rory Kennedy, go 319 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Judith 320 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: Vecchioni shares the weight of responsibility she felt bringing the 321 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: series Vietnam A Television History to the American public. I'm 322 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing 323 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: documentary producer Judith VECCHIONI can spend years behind the scenes 324 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: making a series before it sees the light of day. 325 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: Vietnam A Television History. He was no exception. It was 326 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: an incredible undertaking, with its thirteen episodes being produced over 327 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: six years. 328 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 3: I think it was two years of fundraising and four 329 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 3: years of production. Yeah, And it was in part it 330 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 3: took so long because we were making up a format 331 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 3: for America. Nobody had ever done this kind of large, 332 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 3: multipart series right where the stories fed to each other. 333 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: You could watch them separately, but if you really want 334 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: to understand it, you watched all of them roughly the 335 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 3: order that they were presented. So we were inventing that. 336 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: And one of the reasons we had a British producer, 337 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: Martin Smith. Martin Smith came because he had worked at 338 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 3: World at War and that was the only really big 339 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 3: linked series that had been done before that. So he 340 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 3: came over and was one of our producers and was 341 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 3: tremendously helpful in talking about how do you divide up 342 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 3: stories that are happening virtually simultaneously, How do you pick 343 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: away to do that? And things that we did for 344 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: Vietnam I brought with me when we went to Eyes 345 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: on the Prize not to jump too far ahead, and 346 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 3: other people used for other linked series. An example is school. 347 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: At the beginning of each of these projects, we sat 348 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: down all the production staff and went to school together. 349 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: We had lecturers, we watched films, we discussed the stories. 350 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 3: We talked about what's a source and what's not a source. 351 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 3: It was a combination of film school and journalism, and 352 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 3: it meant that what we did was as unimpeachable as 353 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: we could possibly make it. And for Vietnam that was 354 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 3: critical since we were working within the decade of the 355 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: Fall of Saigon. 356 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: Vietnam and television history. I saw that in its original production. 357 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: How do you feel? And this goes throughout your career. 358 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: Eventually we get to Eyes on the Prize. I mean 359 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: you do two back to back. I mean you climb 360 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: with your compatriots, you climb big mountains that set the 361 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: tone for public television for decades to come. I mean 362 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna get into the eyes of the prize in 363 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: a minute. But for me, when I watched Vietnama television history, 364 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: I go, this is it, this is what happened. For you? 365 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: Did you sense did you realize at the time, because 366 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: you seem like such an incredibly bright and thoughtful person 367 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: that you're sitting there going, you know, I'm carving history 368 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: in stone here? Did you feel that sense of responsibility 369 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: when you were doing this show? 370 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 3: We did, and we didn't know how people would react. 371 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 3: I know that every single person that we called up 372 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 3: to interview to bring on board, whether they were American 373 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 3: or Vietnamese or whatever they were, every single person said, 374 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 3: which side were you on? That was their first question. 375 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 3: They wanted to know where we going to say it 376 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 3: was American imperialism? Where were we going to say America 377 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 3: was saving democracy? Where were we going to Where were 378 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: we going to be? And we we said, and I 379 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 3: think we worked very very hard. It's not just fair 380 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: but balanced to say there are multiple sides to this story. 381 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 3: There's the South Vietnamese, there's the North Vietnamese, there's the 382 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: Viet Min viet Cong, there's the Yes, there's multiple and 383 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 3: so what we want to be doing is over and 384 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 3: over again showcasing the complexity of the history with as 385 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 3: much as possible, and it had to be very strong. 386 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 3: Back up, I'll tell you a story that we in 387 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 3: the the story of d NBN Foo, we had a 388 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 3: story of North Vietnamese heroism, the legends they told about 389 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 3: how hard that victory was for them. We also had 390 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 3: in that section a story of heroism from the South 391 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 3: Vietnamese and how they marched into the battles singing the 392 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: French national anthem because they didn't have their own anthem yet. 393 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 3: It was too young a country. That kind of balancing, 394 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 3: that constant balancing, and the research to find and verify 395 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 3: these was enormous. I had a French speaking production assistant 396 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: to make sure that we were hitting the right records, 397 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: not just the American records, but the French records for 398 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: my French based films. 399 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: Now I'm assuming that you know you might have worked 400 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: on other things, but Vietnam of Television History in its 401 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: original release was an eighty three, and you're working on 402 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: Eyes on the Prize after that. In your career at 403 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: this point, are you commissioned, are you assigned or do 404 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: you pitch? How does Judith vic KENI get on board 405 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: you know, one of the most seminal public television productions in. 406 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 3: History, Well, Vietnam. I pitched myself to be part of it, 407 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 3: as I said, to you an associate producer, I'll do that. 408 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 3: And then as I'd worked on the first I worked 409 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: on episodes three and twelve as an associate producer and 410 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: it became clear that I should do the first two programs, 411 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: and so they just said you want to do them, 412 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 3: and I said, yes, I will. For Eyes, it was 413 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 3: Henry Hampton's series. Henry Hampton was the visionary behind Eyes 414 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 3: on the Prize and he had been trying for years 415 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: and years to get funding. He tried several times, got started, 416 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 3: had to stop, and when he finally really got it 417 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 3: together to do it, he came and looked around the 418 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: Vietnam Cadre to say, I need someone who has this 419 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 3: experience of making linked films, and I know he talked 420 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 3: to some of my colleagues and he said to me, 421 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 3: do you want this? And I said, exactly what I 422 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: had said about Vietnam. Yes, this is my story. I 423 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 3: want to be part of it. So I left GBH 424 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 3: to do Ice on the Prize was an independent production, 425 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 3: and I said to my boss at the time, can 426 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: I have a leave of absence? It'll be probably two years, 427 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 3: three years, I don't know, and he said, we don't 428 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: give long leaves of absence. I said, then I have 429 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 3: to leave and who produce? And who produced that? 430 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 1: Because I'm assuming that, like I mean, in our podcast world, 431 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: there's a number of places to go and you know, 432 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: look for funding. GBH itself be easy where IRA is 433 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: and so forth. But I'm assuming that at this point 434 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: in the eighties GBH is like the mothership for this 435 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: kind of producing or were there other stations that were 436 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: doing more of this kind of production as well. 437 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 3: I think GBH was doing most of it. Other stations 438 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 3: like w NET were doing some. They did the Atoms Chronicles. 439 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 3: What was that called the which was a fictionalization of 440 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: John and Abigail Adams but a long piece. But the 441 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 3: documentaries were from GVH. But Henry Hampton, who was black 442 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: Side's founder and president, really wanted to do it independently. 443 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: It was a black owned company. He wanted to staff 444 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 3: it and run it, and he himself had been at SELMA, 445 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 3: so it was a very very important story to him 446 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 3: to tell. 447 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: And he got the money from where. 448 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: Do you think a neh and CPB money but directly, 449 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 3: and we were running out of money all the way 450 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 3: through it. And at a certain point he got some 451 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 3: company money from I think Lotus Incorporated came in and 452 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 3: gave him and that was how he made payroll that week. 453 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 3: We were not going to make payroll the independent world. 454 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 3: I always say, you think you're the poorest of the 455 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 3: poor when you work for public television, and then you 456 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 3: go independent for public television, and you really know what 457 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 3: poverty is. 458 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: Documentary producer Judith A. 459 00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 2: Koni. 460 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be 461 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, 462 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you'll get your podcasts. When we come back, 463 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: Judith Vecchioni shares her advice for the next class of 464 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: documentary filmmakers. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's 465 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: the Thing. In the nineteen eighties, there were multiple high 466 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: profile resignations from the board of the Corporation for Public 467 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: Broadcasting or CPB, which funds PBS. It was a time 468 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: of public disputes and allegations of politicization attributed to the 469 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: Reagan administration's multiple appointees. I wanted to know if Vecchione 470 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: had any awareness of the tumult happening at the top 471 00:28:59,320 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: of the CPP. 472 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 3: I did not, And I think that's a testimony to 473 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 3: the firewall between content and fundraising that I wasn't doing 474 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 3: the fundraising at that point as a producer, as a 475 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 3: senior producer, I wasn't doing any of that. Henry did it, 476 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 3: Henry Ampton, for Eyes and for Vietnam, Richard Ellison had 477 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: done it. I wasn't a part of it. 478 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: It was there. 479 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 3: It was certainly an issue, but it wasn't something I saw, 480 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 3: and GBH was very clear about we have to keep 481 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 3: a firewall going or else we're commercial station. Then you know, 482 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 3: we're just responding to different masters. I'm not saying it 483 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 3: wasn't true. I'm just saying I wasn't at that level. 484 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: So I worked very heavily in the nineties on campaign 485 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: finance reform Arizona main events where we raised money for 486 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: the Legal Defense Fund for those laws, and I worked 487 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: with a group of people who we solemnly believe, I mean, 488 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: without an ounce of hesitation, thought that the campaign finance 489 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: reform was the lynch and of all the problems in 490 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: this country, you know, spending a speech, money a speech, 491 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: and campaigns, and we came up with all the cliches. 492 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: You here now, which is well of money is speech 493 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: and the person with the most money speaks loudest. And 494 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: I believe that every single person in the United States 495 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: Congress Democratic Republican, they might as well wear decals on 496 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: them and stickers on them like their NASCAR race car 497 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: drivers of who's promoting them and owning them. You can't 498 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: run for office unless you get the money. Most of 499 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: the people who win, overwhelmingly, the overwhelming majority win who 500 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: have the most money. Campaign finance reform was really just 501 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: the biggest problem. So we go see Burt Newborn. He's 502 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: from the Brennan Center, the think Taket NYU Law School, 503 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: and Burt Newborn said that when Brown versus the Board 504 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: of Education comes, he says, they didn't wake up that 505 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: morning and they had some new information. He said, they 506 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: knew the country was ready, They knew the country that 507 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: the country needed this. We had to go in this 508 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: direction order for the country. It has remain healthy and 509 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: eyes on the prize comes and it's a huge success, 510 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: huge one of the most successful documentaries that I can 511 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: recall and did you feel the same thing, which was 512 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: that it was timing that people were just ready to 513 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: start to really do the deep dive into the civil 514 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: rights movement. 515 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 3: That and also the commitment to strong journalism made the 516 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 3: stories really forceful. I remember a screening that we had. 517 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 3: We would have screenings of rough cuts with not just 518 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 3: ourselves the team, but with larger groups. And I remember, 519 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 3: you know this that when you're watching one of your 520 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: films with a group, you don't watch the film, you 521 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: watch the people watching it. And I remember the hairs 522 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: rising on the back of my neck and saying, we 523 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: got it, we have this. This was the the Emmett 524 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 3: Till story in episode one, it's are we speaking to 525 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 3: the audience? Are we driving new understanding? I am a 526 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 3: firm believer that journalists need to not enter into political discussions. 527 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 3: I know some journalists who don't vote because they don't 528 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 3: believe they can do that and still remain impartial. I'm 529 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: not that far a lot, but I am very very 530 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: careful about expressing my let me admit, quite strong feelings 531 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 3: because I don't see how I can be effective in 532 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 3: my job now. 533 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: With the time we have left. Of course, your career 534 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: spans many years, and now there are far more women 535 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: working in the documentary film world, and I'm wondering, do 536 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: you do any teaching? You do you teach? 537 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 3: I do a lot of mentoring. I don't teach, but 538 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,959 Speaker 3: I do a lot of mentoring. For twelve years I 539 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 3: ran a project for PBS nationally called the Producer's Workshop 540 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 3: up at WGBH, where for a week we would bring 541 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 3: in promising associate producers and local producers and run them 542 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: through a very tough boot camp, like ten twelve hour 543 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: days about how do you bring your projects up to 544 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 3: the national level. And we've looked very much for women, 545 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 3: for people of color, for people from rural areas to 546 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 3: bring in new voices for public media. A lot of 547 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 3: those people have gone on and made wonderful, wonderful films. 548 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 3: So that's been a very important part of my job. 549 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 3: And I'm now working as senior editorial advisor for World Channel, 550 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 3: which if viewers don't know, is part of the PBS ecosystem. 551 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: The way PBS Kids is a part of it. This 552 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 3: is documentaries, short form and long form, digital and broadcast 553 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 3: and bringing in new voices to the system. So we 554 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 3: have a series called America Reframed, where the stories are 555 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 3: you haven't heard this that tells you something about the 556 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: town of Orangeburg, the town of Chicago, the farming communities 557 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 3: of wherever. We also have a series called Local USA, 558 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 3: which looks at really hyperlocal stories being told by the 559 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 3: people within them. So that new voices is an important 560 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 3: part of what I'm doing now. 561 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: Now, two quick things. I watched the diabetes blood sugar 562 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: rising and I have type two. I went back and 563 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: forth and had a pre diabetes for a long time. 564 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: When I see this, and obviously there's no comparison in 565 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: terms of content with the Vietnam thing, But what was 566 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: the reason? Was this an assignment? Why did you do 567 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: the diabetes? 568 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by stories that are at the the edges 569 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 3: of society. They are very very important to the communities 570 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 3: that face these issues, but not necessarily to everyone. And 571 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 3: I realized that diabetes is a national emergency. If we 572 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 3: hadn't just had COVID, we would be calling diabetes a 573 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 3: pandemic that there were There was a moment when things 574 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 3: were starting to shift. The first continuous glucose monitors were 575 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 3: coming in, the first real fights over the cost of 576 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 3: insulin were gearing up, and that's just born fruit. You know, 577 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 3: a week before we're talking with the cap on insulin costs. 578 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 3: So it just seemed to me to be an important 579 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 3: story that wasn't being told and that we needed to 580 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 3: get out there. I have it in my family too, right, And. 581 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: Some people have talked about, you know, putting warnings on candy. 582 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: You know that, you know, whatever that might be. But like, 583 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: excessive consumption of this product can lead to certain health issues. 584 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what to what the answer to that is, 585 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: but I do realize it's like when you live inside 586 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: the minefield of diabetes, when you live inside the minefield 587 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: of blood sugar issues everywhere you go, you just can't 588 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: believe it. I mean, I mean, I might have seen 589 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: a beautiful woman years ago, when I was younger, I 590 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: might have said to myself, my god, look how beautiful 591 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: that woman is. Now I hold up a drink in 592 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: my hand in a deli and go, my god, this 593 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: says eighty eight grams of sugar in it. You know, 594 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: the sugar content of food has taken over my life. 595 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: Last question, your advice to newcomers, your advice to people 596 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: who are coming. 597 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 3: In well, this is a little bit like yours and 598 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 3: a little bit different. When I talk to young makers 599 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 3: who come to me with a brilliant idea, I say, 600 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: this is a brilliant idea. It probably shouldn't be your 601 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 3: first film. It should be your second film. Make something 602 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 3: for that you can learn and make mistakes on, and 603 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 3: then make the one that really matters. 604 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: See you, interesting idea. 605 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 3: I also say to people, don't reinvent the wheel if 606 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 3: you can work for someone. I worked for people like 607 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 3: David Fanning who started Frontline, and I worked for Paula 608 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 3: Apsel who ran Frontline. These are people who I learned 609 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 3: from by watching, by making my mistakes in front of 610 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 3: them instead of in front of an audience and letting 611 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 3: them say to me. I have an absolute memory of 612 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 3: David saying to me at one point, if you moved 613 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 3: that scene from here to there, what would happen? And 614 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 3: I said, oh my god, it opens up so many 615 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: possibilities if I just I keep the scene, but I 616 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 3: just move it a little later in the film. And 617 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 3: he had that kind of knowledge that I could accumulate 618 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 3: and not have to make my mistakes and put the 619 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 3: film out wrong. So don't reinvent the wheel, learn from 620 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 3: the people around you, and go forward. 621 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: My thanks to Judith Vecchione. This episode was recorded at 622 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, 623 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoven. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 624 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. 625 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.