WEBVTT - Re-Visiting ‘The White Lotus’ with creator Mike White 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.440 Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk and this is next question. 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.879 I am super psyched you guys, because my guest today 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.280 is the creator of the show. Everyone is talking about 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:13.840 The White Lotus. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.560 I'm obsessed. In its second. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.000 Season, the series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.120 the people who work at a stunny seaside resort in Sicily. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.920 Welcome to the White Lotus. I am Valentina, the resorts manager. 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:30.720 How was it both riot? 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:31.440 It was? 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:34.800 I mean, I'm impressed that you're even here. 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:36.560 Why are you impressed? 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:41.800 It's a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old. No, anyway, 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.760 Isabella here, We'll take you up to the hotel and 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:46.960 bring you to your beautiful growing. 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.400 And offer you as think of that, thank you. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:51.720 You're a CYPRESSA. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.840 Before the luxe world of The White Lotus, Mike White 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.920 spent much of his time on The Proof creating characters 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:07.160 who were too loaners, weirdos, and wanderers in movies like 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.480 Chuck and Buck, The Year of the Dog with Molly Shannon, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.240 The Good Girl with Jennifer Aniston, and School. 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:15.840 Of Rock with Jack Black. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.399 Popular movies in their own right, but nothing like The 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:24.280 Mean producing headline driving conspiracy, fieled chatter. 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:25.800 Surrounding the White lotus. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.240 It seems like it's a new, slightly uncomfortable position for 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:31.080 Mike to be in. 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.720 I see myself as an underdog, and I'm always like that, 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:37.840 Like I'm always gonna see myself as like somebody who 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:38.840 has to prove something. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.680 So like, even in success, I still feel like I 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.560 don't know. Yeah, I'm not an I don't feel like an. 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.520 Impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know, like 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.360 I you know, I slipped in through the side door 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:50.880 or something. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.000 Today we dive into all of it, the making of 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:59.760 the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters, Mike's childhood, 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:04.840 and how he really feels about his newfound fame. So 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.920 let me just first start by asking what does it 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.000 feel like to be Mike White these days? 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:18.760 Well? What a question, I you know. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.240 I we honestly just finished the final episode. We had 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.720 a very crazy shooting schedule that because of COVID and 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.800 because of weather in Italy and a lot of different reasons, 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.680 we went over our shoot and so I thought HBO 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.560 would give us a little break and let us air 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.000 later than what we were expecting and instead they were like, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.840 we need it when we need it, and so it 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.760 cut into our post. So I was editing and finishing 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.160 the show up until like ten days ago. So I've 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.360 just been like, I'm living in Hawaii right now for 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.160 tax reasons. There's a good incentive for them to do 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.520 the post here, which is great. But I saw I've 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.480 been kind of in a bubble. I've just been finishing 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:06.160 the show, uh, living on an island, and so yeah, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.079 it's I don't know, I don't I don't know what 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.960 it's like to but it, but it doesn't I'm not 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.560 getting It's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.519 around la and like getting high five. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.240 For people or anything like that. So it's it's it, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.440 but I'm but I'm excited that it's a sentence that. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.760 The people are watching the show and liking it, and 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.880 I'm definitely getting that. But it's but it's just pretty 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.400 I'm still kind of living on an island and living 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:30.000 in a bubble. 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.960 Well. Having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.640 I mean you are sort of the envy of everyone 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.400 in Hollywood, and this is something that you've talked about 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.440 kind of willingly. In an article you did in in Vulture, 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.640 you talked about Hollywood, Who's up, Who's down, kind of 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.240 how people are all envious of one another, and that 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.800 you're uber competitive. So have you been having said all that, Mike, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.800 have you been able to take a moment and kind 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.240 of say I'm the bomb? 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.760 Oh my god, No, No, that's so not me. I 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.000 but yes i am. 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.400 I'm you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like i'm 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.920 you know, I'm fifty two years old, and I've been 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.120 doing this since I was twenty two years old, and 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.039 so and I've had, you know, a lot of things 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.760 made and a lot of things that I thought were successful, 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.760 but not at this yeah, with this kind of reaction. 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.240 And so I just sort of feel like to use 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.520 the like, since I'm in Hawaii, like an analogy that 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.240 fits here, which is like, I feel like I'm a 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.520 surfer who's been out in the ocean for a long time. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.920 And like I caught a wave. I don't know why 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:43.600 this wave, but like you. 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.599 Know, obviously I'm old enough and have had a long 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:51.400 enough career to see it as yeah, a blessing but 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:55.440 also something that you can't you know, I would never 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.719 try to chase this reaction because I just it's just 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.880 it's just you just never know what's gonna be yea, 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.680 what people are going to respond to. So I'm excited. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.839 I'll take your word for it that that's it's it's yeah, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.120 I don't know, I'm obviously I'm happy. It's like, I mean, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:14.919 I was at the age where I was just like 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:16.840 can I keep doing it? You know, like it was 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.160 like maybe the old Gray Mary what she used to be, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:20.960 and I've got to like so like it's nice to 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.599 have a little like yeah, it's it's it's definitely fun. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.839 I'm very excited, but I don't know whatever. 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.640 Well, let's talk about the genesis of White lotus. I 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.560 was at a party and I heard from a couple 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:40.520 of Hollywood types that HBO had access to a hotel 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.800 that was empty and MAUI during COVID and came to 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.360 you and said, hey, Mike White, can you write a 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:49.680 show that takes place in a hotel? 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:52.320 Is that how it started? 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:52.920 It? 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:53.960 Kind of? 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.000 It definitely was like they they need they had a 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.560 lot of projects that had fallen apart because of COVID, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.520 and so they just they knew I was kind of 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.000 fast and that like I was good with dialogue and 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:05.680 that like maybe a show that was very that I 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.640 could write a show in a bubble that was like 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.120 that would maybe be immune from some of the COVID 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:15.000 uh issues that they had come up upon. And so 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:16.520 so they asked me to do it, like can you 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.040 come up with a bubble show? But they didn't have 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.880 a I was like, it was my idea to do. 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:22.640 It in a hotel. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.360 And I was like, and I'm you know, I have 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.880 a place in Kwai And I'm like, and I knew 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.400 that there were all these hotels that were just yeah 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.160 defunct and they were just had shut down because of COVID, 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:34.680 And I was like, we could grab one of those 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.320 hotels of bad in Hawaii. But they didn't even really 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.320 want us to go to Hawaii because that was already 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:44.360 to treacherous potential issues with COVID. They wanted us like 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:46.120 they probably would have been happy and found like a 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.240 hotel in like Lancaster or like you know, across the 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.640 street from Casey Boyce's house or something, right, So like 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.560 so yeah, I just uh so, yeah, I had to 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:55.440 push for Hawaii. 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.680 But yeah, it was kind of a mix mix of that, and. 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.480 Tell me a little bit about how you were inspired 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.480 to write really both seasons, but let's start with the first. 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.160 I mean, when you sit down to write this mic, 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.840 what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.400 of a big broad question, but I'm just curious. You've 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:19.080 got a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:24.320 decide I want to show class differences. I wanted to 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.520 show really interesting characters. I think one of the things, 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.680 one of many things I love about the show is 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:35.800 that feels very current. You know, sometimes things get made 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.720 and they come out a couple of years later or 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.520 even a year later, and they don't feel ocurrant or 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.840 of the moment. And I think White Load has felt 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:51.320 so tuned in to current sensibilities. So just talk to 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:53.680 me a little bit about your thought process when you 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:55.960 put finger to keyboard. 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:58.840 You're talking about like the first season. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.160 Yeah, sure, we'll talk about this second. 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.520 Yeah, the first season it was I I I you know, 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.360 I've spent a lot of time in Hawaii, so you know, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:13.280 some of and a lot in Hawaii, there's definitely like 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.920 two classes. There's the you know, the tourists and the 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.160 money to people who come and like you know, have 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.120 their vacations here. And then there's the service class of 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.640 people who you know, can be at any you know, 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.720 some of them are do very well financially, but they're 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.480 all servicing these tourists. And so you you know, if 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.160 you hear long enough, you get like this, you know, 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.080 the you I obviously know the tourist side of it 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:39.920 because I've been there and I you know, it's like 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:41.720 and a lot of my friends who visit, you know, 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:43.920 so I get that part of it. But then also 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.560 you know, the service side of it. And I just 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.920 felt like, you know, there's something about doing you know, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.200 because obviously hotel or like Fantasy Island, you think love Boat, 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.640 like there's like a there's like a history of these 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.880 kinds of shows in this kind of you know, like 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.640 trying to genre exactly, but to do something that is 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.880 a little bit more well observed and that kind of 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:05.760 gets that, you know. I just thought it was like 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:10.760 an interesting about how money, who has the money impacts 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.880 relationships both obviously from the server and the you know, customer, 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.400 but also you know, the husband and the wife and 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.560 the father and the child and and and so it 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.400 just felt like maybe as a theme that seemed rich, 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.360 and so that was kind of the initial impulse because 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:27.560 I was like, we're going to be in a hotel. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.120 You know, nobody can leave. It's kind of has to 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.960 be a crucible everyone, you know. And so yeah, it 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:34.840 kind of built out from there. And then it was 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.840 just like years of maybe years of too much being 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.560 online and like Twitter speak and like it was just 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:41.920 like I was like I just. 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.920 Started freestyling as far as just like trying to get at. 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:46.880 Some of the I don't know, the kind of contemporary 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:48.840 language and stuff like that. 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:53.960 It seems to me you're almost like an anthropologist kind 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:59.560 of discovering and exposing human behavior. And I when I 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.760 watch I wonder how much of this did Mike learn 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.600 from being on reality shows how people act? Because obviously 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.959 you were in Survivor. On Survivor, I understand you're a 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.320 good friend of Jeff Probe's. You love reality television. You 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.320 were on The Amazing Race with your dad. So did 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:22.840 some of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus? 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:24.960 Am I getting too weird on these questions? 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:25.520 No? 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:26.040 Not at all. 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.640 I mean I actually what I loved when I when 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.600 I you know, because I was obviously a writer before 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.280 the big reality boom, which I think started like in 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:39.000 two thousand ish and then uh, but like you know, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.720 you show like Survivor came along and you were like, wow, 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.760 it was showing people, you know, one minute they would 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.600 be very irritating or very petty, and then the next 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.600 minute they would be very vulnerable and your heart goes 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:54.920 out to them, and then they could be courageous, and 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:56.880 I don't know, it was just like you would see 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.320 these these I mean because they were people. It was 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:03.560 like fully dimensional humans. And even though maybe the format 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:08.440 could be formulaic, there was something I just as a writer, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:08.880 I was like. 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.360 This is this is you know this this. 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:13.560 Makes you want to raise your game as far as 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.920 like when you are creating characters that people are watching, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.680 because it felt like they were always surprising and you 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.560 were you know, you just you There wasn't some internal 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.920 integrity obviously, but there was also all of these colors, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.840 and so I've always wanted to try to write characters 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.000 that could match, you know, some of the great you know, 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.360 personalities that you see in reality TV. So yeah, I 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.280 do think that's a that's a part of it. And 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.000 I just think when I was very young, starting very early, 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.240 I was I was always you know, I had Sam 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.880 Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:52.400 her son, and I loved. 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.680 Her, and so it was the first time that I. 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.680 Realized, oh, people were playwrights. So very early on I 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.959 was writing little plays and so, like, I've always listened, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.920 and I've always been interested in how people talk, because 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.880 I've always thought about things in terms of dialogue, and 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.680 then also how what they say about themselves doesn't always 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.760 necessarily match what they think and doesn't always match what 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.680 they are going to do, and so that's always been 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.640 interesting to me, and so I've always been kind of 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.480 an observer of that. 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.440 I guess I think your childhood, though, in addition to 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.760 being taught by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:32.480 is a cool little fact at Trivia Fact, you grew 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:37.040 up an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.360 always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.200 Well, my parents were very loving and I loved I 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:50.760 had a very nurturing, positive, nuclear family. My dad was 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.720 a minister, and we were part of a bigger, kind 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.239 of more evangelical religious community. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.440 And it was there that. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.920 Community where it was deaf felt I always felt a 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.079 little alien. I never really drunk the kool aid, as 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.320 they say, and I I always yeah, it was there 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.000 where you I think that I, you know, some of 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.439 the you know, part of drama is is yeah, getting 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:20.360 past the ven you know, the facade, and trying to 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.120 see what people really do and what people really are like, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.760 but beyond what they say they do. And I think 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:28.920 there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of those 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.720 smaller evangelical communities about you know, certainly around sex and 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.480 around how people you know, think about you know, what 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.520 the motivations for behavior are and stuff, and so I 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.160 I have so it always I always felt like I 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:45.560 was like I always wanted to know. I was like, 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.720 what's the what's the real you know, like I've always 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.400 been like, you know, interested in like what really how 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.000 what people do and how that that's sometimes not really 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.920 in line with how they present themselves. 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.199 I think that shows up in a lot of your work. 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:05.040 Mic I was rewatching Brad's status, and I think that 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.199 was very effective in terms of this inner turmoil Brad 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:15.480 aka Ben Stiller is experiencing. Comparing him his station in 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.840 life to all of his college friends who were doing 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:25.360 much better. And I think that external internal conflict is 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.880 something it seems to me that you go back to. 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:33.400 And I read that when you were eleven year dad 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.320 came out to your family. He was a minister, as 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.640 you mentioned, but also a gross writer for people like 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.480 Jerry Folwell and Tammy Baker, and you once said finding 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:47.320 out about your dad's sexuality is quote the key to 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:48.600 everything I write. 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.720 How So, yeah, well, just in the sense of what 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.320 I was just talking about, which is, you know, it's 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.400 a big rug to be pulled from under you where 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.120 you know, you think your family is this thing, and 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.600 your dad is this thing, and he's a minister, and 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.800 then you realize there's this other, whole other side, which 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:12.160 isn't necessarily a dark side, it's just a truth. And 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.760 the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.440 be in the world. And and so I think, you know, 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.840 exploring that and and and and I think that that, yeah, 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.680 that just just to me, it's just you know, obviously 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.000 it hit home in a literal way, just that you know, 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.880 we are more complicated than we present ourselves, and that 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.280 we put a certain face to our community and that 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.560 that maybe in drama and showing some of that. Obviously 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.880 there's a titillation part of it, but then there's like 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.760 a maybe some kind of solace to know that, like 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.160 everybody is grappling with this, like that the person that 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.440 we want to be and the person that the world 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.080 wants us to be, we're not always that and that's 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:57.680 okay and that's human. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.280 And that kind of thing. 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.320 You I went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.480 you finally found your people there. So how did Wesleyan 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.000 affect you, not only as a person but as a writer. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.360 Well, I was in a kind of more homogeneous community 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.480 growing up in high school, you know, and grade school, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.880 and so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:29.440 very open minded, liberal community in general, and also just 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.000 these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.320 just like I just felt like I was like behind 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.000 the curve, you know. I was kind of a self 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:38.520 taught I mean, I was just I mean I went 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.280 to a good school, but it was like as far 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.520 as culture and stuff, I was just I was, you know, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.320 I like had my own like subscription to The New 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.440 Yorker for I was just trying to find my way 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.560 through the culture, and so, like I would, I went 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.040 to Wesleyan all these you know, a lot of I 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.080 mean it was a lot of New York Jewish kids 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.440 who are like very like fully baked and fully like 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.800 you know, you know, like new fancy people. And I 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.640 was just like, I kind of was just I felt 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.400 like a rube. But I but I was so enamored 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.320 by the yeah, the whole vibe there and the still 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.760 to this day, a lot of those kids I met 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.000 there are are my my friend group. 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.360 And when you when you graduated from wesley and were 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.520 you really interested in playwriting or just writing in general. 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:28.879 Well, I wanted to be a playwright. I wanted to 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:29.760 be Sam Shepherd. 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.440 I went from California to you know, to Wesseleyan, and 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.600 I was like, I didn't have socks. I realized how 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.159 cold it was back East. I was like, this is 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.320 too cold for me. Like I so I was like, 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.159 I was like, my plan was to go to New 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:44.439 York and be was starring playwright. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.320 But I was like, I don't know if I could 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:47.320 handle this weather. 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.560 I was like, so, I like kind of I fell 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.280 into the wrong crowd and came back to la I 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.840 was started writing for for movies and TV. 0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.880 After the break, Let's go to Sicily. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.600 When you look back at your quote unquote body of work, Mike, wait, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:19.119 do you notice any kind of thread that connects a 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.320 lot of these stories when you think about it. 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.080 I don't know, me I have a thread. I don't 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:28.760 know there. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.480 I mean, it's an idiosyncratic body of work. 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.280 And I and I'm. 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:37.240 Proud, like I one thing that I always was like, 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.320 I'm not going to take myself so seriously that I 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.480 miss out on anything like and that's how That's why 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.880 I did Survivor. It's why I did amazing race, It's 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.040 why I've taken jobs that I don't know. It's like, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.720 you know, like I always thought that I I mean, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.000 if now now I do sound like a whatever. I 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.800 just you know, it's like I always thought I was talented. 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.760 I always felt like I had some the offer. I 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.280 always felt like I was, you know, like I like 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.000 you said I was. You know, I've said I'm competitive, 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.760 Like I would see peers who like you know, caught 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.400 the wave and got a lot of like attention and success, 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:13.760 and I was like I could do that. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.639 I'm beat. I'm I'm as good or better than those people. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:17.639 And in the you know, of. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.840 Course, that's that's the that's the gumption that you need 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:25.919 to get through Hollywood by like and so so. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:27.560 But at the same time, I was just like, I'm not. 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.520 Gonna be I met people early on who had careers 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.120 that I admired, and a lot of them seemed miserable 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.399 or they seem like they were really in a you know, 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.040 protective of their you know, like they they I don't know, 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.320 they that in order to be serious taken seriously, they 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.000 had to kind of have a serious vibe. 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.240 And it's like, we're in the we're in the we're 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:53.359 in the you know. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.439 I I think our work is meaningful, but like we 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.480 are in the in the sort of we're in the 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.440 kids section in a sense, you know what I mean. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.160 We're not we're not you know. 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:03.440 We're not curing cancer. 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.280 Yeah, we're not curing cancer. We're not in the policy 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:07.840 we're not policy wants. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:08.080 We're not. 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.680 It's like we are you know, we're in the we're 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.440 in the entertainment section, do you know what I mean. 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:14.720 So it's like and so I just was like, I 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.600 I just don't I want to I want to be successful, 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.320 and I want people to think I'm talented, but I 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.399 also I want to I want to live a life 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.359 that I look back on and the life itself was 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.200 cool and the and the things I did were cool, 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.720 and it's not just my work. So so like I 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.879 look at those all those different things, and it's like 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.880 it's it's an eclectic it's like it's kind of a 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.400 hot mess, like a bunch of credits. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:41.600 But I I each one of them. 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.520 I got different things out of and and and yeah, 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.879 I had served different purposes for me. 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.280 But right now you are in a very different position, Mike, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:55.679 because I'm sure everyone in Hollywood is saying that Mike White, 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:57.880 he can write his own ticket. Now he can kind 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.439 of do whatever he wants, which I think makes you 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:02.600 a little uncomfortable. 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:05.159 Well, I don't know. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.720 I feel like this is like it's like I'm waking 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:10.720 up in Hawaii and it's like Katie Kirk is here 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.280 to tell you everything has changed. 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.760 Everything is feist, Mike. 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.439 No, Well, I I appreciate you saying that, and I 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.840 and I you know, I actually feel like I if 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.840 that's true. I feel like I feel like I'm like 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.600 somebody who's been ready to be at bat for a 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.159 long time. And I've done it, you know, like you know, 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.280 and I've I've done things I'm proud of. But like 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.080 I've it's always been swimming upstream to get the financing, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.080 to get the actor, to get the thing to the 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:45.440 you know, like it's it's and that's part of the fun, 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.440 I guess, but it's also part it's there's wear and tear. 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.240 So it's like, if it's an easier road to do 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.280 the things I want to do, I'm ready to do 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.280 more and I have more to say, and I you know, 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.600 like and it's and and this was hard. Uh, it 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.760 took a lot out of me, especially this last season. 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:05.159 But this is what I always wanted to do, and 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.880 so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity. 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:09.800 To do it. 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:11.320 Are you having fun, Mike? 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.000 I am having fun. I'm having fun talking to you. 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:16.960 I'm here in Hawaii, I'm you know, I've gotten through 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.840 the season and everyone's you know, chatting about so that's fun. 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.480 But I also I need to reboot a little bit. 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.600 I don't have a lot of gas in the tank, 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.760 so I need to figure out how to I don't 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.240 know whatever, unplug and refresh or something. 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.680 Let's talk about this current season of White Lotus, because 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.760 I'm worried, Mike, I'm worried about the characters White. I'm 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:46.720 really worried. I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Portia. 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:51.600 I'm really worried about Tanya. I'm worried about is it alb. 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:57.920 I mean, I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing 0:22:57.960 --> 0:22:58.560 to us, Mike? 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.560 Well, the fun thing about Yeah, what I like about 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:04.840 this format is that, like I like I kind of 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.359 like a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun. 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:09.760 We you know. 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:14.680 I think the pleasure of this one, then, certainly this 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:17.879 season and last season too, I think, is like, you know, 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:21.640 you hope you create very credible characters, and you create 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.520 a situation that like you're like it passes the bull 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.399 shit detector to some degree, and and that and then 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.840 and then just start to like cook up the gap, 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:35.240 you know, like turn up the heat just so it's like, 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.000 you know, it's like almost like when you're on the 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.520 yeah roller coaster and you're like chit chit chick and 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:41.600 you're like going up, and you're like this is gonna. 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:44.640 Go really far down like we are really going check. 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.240 So yeah, and I think the finale hopefully will satisfy 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.960 h the Catharsis, and I mean, yeah, there's gonna be 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.080 a lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing 0:23:56.400 --> 0:24:00.879 of teeth and it's yeah, but yeah, you should be worried. 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.239 I keep thinking about that story of the woman that 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.840 fell that they threw off the mountain. 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:08.320 Oh. 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:13.600 I also keep worrying about the the wife of the 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:19.800 cheesy finance guy saying, Oh, you're going to die here. 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.639 They're going to have to drag you out of this place. 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:25.520 I keep thinking, oh, what does that mean? 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:29.560 Have my right to pick up on some of these things? 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:31.200 I mean, well, some of. 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:34.919 Them are intentional to build for the finale and some 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.200 are a little bit misdirects so that people think, Yeah, 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:40.919 you want people to like feel like they're you know, 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:44.320 Miss Marple and they've got the clues, but you need 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:45.359 extra clues. 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:48.760 You know, it's not so obvious what happens. 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:50.960 But I think people, I think even if you guess, 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:55.240 you're going to be surprised with just how it all 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:57.199 falls apart. 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:01.440 I love the way you use art interchangeably. First of all, 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.480 obviously you're obsessed with kind of those water shots, which 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:08.240 I really like too, but I love I love the painting, 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:14.000 the artifacts, the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.439 of that same porcelain head guy that. 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:19.760 You keep going back to again and again. 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:23.520 Tell me your thought process about using that as a 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:27.280 way to propel the story forward or to foreshadow things, 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:31.000 or to echo what might be going on at the time. Yeah, 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:33.200 can you tell, I've been watching very intimly. 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.520 Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, well, the test is tomorrows. 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:38.800 When I got there, I was like, because they're everywhere 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:42.840 in Sicily, those heads, and the story behind it has 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:45.600 to and the reason for the whole season was because 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:46.200 of these heads. 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:48.320 I was like, because I would go around like, these 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:49.600 heads are everywhere, and it was. 0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:53.439 About adultery and violence and sexual jealousy, and I was 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.080 like that just I had a different idea for the 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:56.639 second season. 0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:57.919 I was like, no, we got to. 0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:02.720 Do an operatic like Italian in sexual jealousy storyline. 0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:05.159 I mean, it's like, that's that's what people want to 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:05.960 see anyway. 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:08.720 But also, this is the part of my job that 0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:12.080 people should be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily, 0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:12.719 I'm telling them. 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:13.840 I'm doing White Lotus. 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:19.240 All of the rich like Sicilians who have these pulazzos 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:21.679 are willing to let me come in and like snoop 0:26:21.720 --> 0:26:24.479 around their house. I got to see all these and 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:26.680 so like two of them ended up in the show. 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:29.040 But like you walk around and you have no idea 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:33.199 that behind this, like you know edifice is like this 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:34.879 incredible palazzo. 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:36.760 They're all A lot of them are hidden. 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:39.400 It's like and then to be able to like get 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:41.359 access to those and see them, and I was like, 0:26:41.400 --> 0:26:43.159 we gotta, like, you know, so when we would get 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:45.159 into these places, I was like, we gotta shoot. We 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:47.920 gotta just like fire hose this down, Like we gotta 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.399 get every piece of art on the walls, like we 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:53.040 gotta do pushions on all of the you know. So 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:57.040 for someone who like you know, likes interior, you know whatever, 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:01.720 like these kind of like classic maxim list eclectic like 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:04.520 you know, like rich you know palazzas, Like I was 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:05.520 just like I was in heaven. 0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:07.240 So I just felt like I had to make the 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:07.800 most of it. 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:10.639 And I mean it must have been an extraordinary place 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.520 to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:17.720 hotel vacant? As well, or tell me about the location. 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:19.840 I want to go to that hotel. 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:20.439 Yeah, you should. 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.520 It's it's the Santa Manico Palace, which is like a 0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:27.119 very historical It was originally a convent and then it 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:28.960 turned into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:32.240 quite a long time. And lab and Truro was shot there. 0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:36.520 It's like, it's it's a it's amazing because obviously, you know, 0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:38.200 I got we we looked at a lot of different 0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:40.399 hotels and it's just like, first the convent part of 0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:43.880 it just gives it this added kind of you know, vibe, 0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:45.040 and then. 0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:47.360 You know, you see these terraced. 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:50.399 Hills with all these different you know villas you know 0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:53.600 that are so classic in European and and then you 0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:56.439 have the Greek theater on one side, and then the 0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:59.080 Ionian Sea in front, and then the Mount Etna, which 0:27:59.119 --> 0:28:02.320 is literally you know, belching smoke half the time, and 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:04.600 you're just like, this is if we're going to go 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:06.119 to Europe, this is what you go for. 0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:07.280 You go for these views. 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:12.000 So it's definitely I highly recommend Tarmina and Sicily itself. 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:15.960 It's like you really can't spend enough time there. It's 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:18.080 like as each you know, it was just after a 0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:20.640 few days it was like I was like, okay, we've 0:28:20.640 --> 0:28:22.440 done this sight seeing, but like it's just like then 0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:25.520 there's just this like vibe over time that just really 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:26.399 seduces you. 0:28:27.119 --> 0:28:30.760 Did you find Lucia and Mia in Sicily? 0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:34.159 No, we found them in Rome. 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:39.240 Simona, who plays Lucia is actually from Naples and Mia 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:41.560 is from Rome. But we had a great set of 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:46.840 casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options, 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:51.800 and those two and Sabrina Impatriatory who plays the manager, 0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:54.280 they're all they were all incredible and so fun to 0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:54.720 work with. 0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:57.479 Yeah, they were fun to watch, I'll tell you that. 0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:00.400 And I know that you have said that the show 0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:04.080 satirizes wealthy, white privilege, and you've said that your intention 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:06.800 was to quote unquote poke the bear, but through a 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:10.480 humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike, what 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:11.360 did you mean. 0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:14.080 Well, poke the bear? 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:18.880 I don't you know, obviously I'm satirizing privilege, but you know, 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:22.280 especially with the first season, I also was poking the 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:24.520 bear as far as some of the I don't know, 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:28.560 like I wanted to give voice to both, you know, 0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:34.360 the critiques of the patriarchy and all of these things 0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.400 that you know, we are discussing, you know, had have 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:40.320 been discussing with fervor the last couple of years. 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:41.320 But also give. 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.160 Voice to the people that are you know, it's like, 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:46.760 you know, I have hearing you know, like like some 0:29:46.800 --> 0:29:49.120 of the conversations that I'm hearing that people don't want 0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:52.840 to say in public but like behind closed doors, and 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:56.200 try to you know, like not you know, make it 0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:59.280 so you're kind of walking the line where okay, well 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:01.840 that sort of is a fair point and then like, 0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:04.440 oh yeah, but you're saying that because this is you know, 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:06.480 you're you're defending, you know, you're on your heels. 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:09.520 So like trying to make it so it's not so 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:12.040 such a simple, pre. 0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:16.200 Digested conversation and and have those conversations be. 0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:20.320 Lively and like you. 0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:24.800 Know, multi layered, multi layered enough that like people feel like, 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:27.760 oh they're they're being seen and then and it's still 0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:30.920 challenged and so and that was that was what I 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:31.840 was trying to do. 0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:35.080 And you know, like and and the fact. 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:38.200 That like people on both sides of some of these arguments, 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:41.240 like champion the show or also like hated the show, 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:43.080 it made me feel like I did my job. 0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:46.920 Yeah, so you're you're really showing some of those tricky 0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:50.480 conversations that people do have behind closed doors. And I 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:54.240 think that that's what contributes Mike to the realness of 0:30:54.320 --> 0:30:58.520 the show and the dialogue that you know, you feel 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:02.080 like this is what people really are talking about, and 0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:08.160 that you're not following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to 0:31:08.240 --> 0:31:11.400 be on the right side of any issue. 0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:15.560 Yeah, because I don't even I don't even It's like, ultimately, 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:18.320 it's like, I don't think it's the dramatist job to 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:22.720 it's I don't think it's it's a message conveying machine. 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:24.880 If I was trying to make a message, then I 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:28.240 would be communicating in a different medium or a different 0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:31.080 kind of Uh. It's really about giving voice to the 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:33.760 different people who exist in our world and try, you know, 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:36.680 do my best to make it feel like it's a 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:39.280 you know, a dimensional conversation. 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.600 After the break, why Mike spends so much time in 0:31:43.680 --> 0:32:00.040 the gray areas of human behavior. I know that a 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:02.960 lot of people had taken note that your characters, so 0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:08.400 many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or there 0:32:08.440 --> 0:32:11.040 are certain things you like, and certain things you really 0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:14.120 don't like, so you feel conflicted. And I feel very 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:17.840 conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the end 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:22.160 of last season, and now I don't dislike her. I 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:26.560 feel sorry for her because she's quite pathetic, but she's 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:28.160 also sort of lovable too. 0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:35.320 Yeah, well, I mean yeah, I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:40.840 is lovable period, and so she brings the lovability for sure. 0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:44.200 But yeah, I do think it's like I, especially the 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:48.800 first season, you know, I wanted there to be two tracks, 0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:51.560 which is, you know, her as the underdog who's looking 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:54.480 for love and dealing with the fact that her mom 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.120 died and you know the pain of that, and so 0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:59.520 on one side you're rooting for her, and then there's 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:03.200 this other story where she's kind of dangling this carrot 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:07.960 over this other woman's you know eye sure and future 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:11.240 and making her feel like there's hope for something, and 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:12.520 then she's kind of a flake. 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.040 And that just seems very true to life for me. 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:18.800 To some of these women that I've met and or 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:21.560 you know man too, But just like where you know, 0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:24.560 they see themselves as a victim in some sense and. 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:27.080 Then savior or savior or savior. 0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:29.520 Yeah, and and they don't see how that they can 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.360 also be victimizing and that they that they yeah, that 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:35.960 they they have agency and that they. 0:33:35.840 --> 0:33:37.960 Are yeah, that they are somehow blowing it. 0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:41.640 Let me ask you about some of the other characters 0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:45.640 in kind of a rapid fire way. We talked about 0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:51.320 Mia and Lucia, and we talked about Valentina. Let's talk 0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:55.880 about Porsia. And I love this discussion online about Porsia's clothes. 0:33:56.000 --> 0:33:58.760 Have you seen this, Mike, I, Oh, yeah, yeah. 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:02.320 That she dresses like a gen Z threat store, Like 0:34:02.720 --> 0:34:05.760 nothing really goes together, like it doesn't look good or not. 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:08.080 I mean, what do you think of all that? It's 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:08.800 so funny. 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.279 Well, a lot of the credit goes to I mean, 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:17.640 that was her character on the page, but Haley Lou Richardson, 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.120 who's the actress, and then Alex Baverd, who is our 0:34:20.160 --> 0:34:24.720 costume designer, you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:28.879 And you know, I'm I'm a little bit like, I'm 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:32.160 women's fashion is not my gough to. 0:34:32.680 --> 0:34:34.319 But I but I but I I. 0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:38.360 Did weigh in, I did weigh in, I approved, I supervised, 0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:41.759 but I but yeah, I just think that you know, 0:34:41.960 --> 0:34:45.160 to me, Portia is somebody who I see this a lot, 0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:47.920 and this was something that I feel like online I 0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:51.440 think is the thing that I I find interesting is 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:53.399 that there's a lot of people who are like rich, 0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:57.440 you know, like bad bad rich people. Rich people are terrible, 0:34:57.480 --> 0:34:59.239 you know, like it's this like this kind of like 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:01.759 you know that that I that I'm allowed to make 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:03.839 the show as long as I show how bad rich 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:04.319 people are. 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:06.120 That the moral of the story is that rich people 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:06.719 are better something. 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:11.160 And it's like and and and obviously you know, there 0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:14.000 is there's truth to that, like a lot of rich 0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:16.200 people are fugging up the world, and so like I 0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.360 you know, but but I also you know, you you 0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:23.040 and so like I guess Porsche was like a vehicle 0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:27.239 to explore how she sees in Tanya all of these 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:29.840 bad character traits and that she, you know, if and 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:32.480 if she had what Tanya had, she would have her 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:35.080 life together and she would be she you know, like 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:37.799 she would be she wouldn't do it better than Tanya. 0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:40.960 But you see how in her own way she's she 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:43.960 is kind of lost in in a similar way, she's 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.960 actually kind of a mini me to Tanya, and. 0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:50.399 In fact, Tanya tells Porsia, you remind me a lot 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:53.520 of myself when I was younger. But I also think 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:56.560 Porscha is very gen z and that she's sort of 0:35:57.760 --> 0:36:01.799 a little bit lost and just doesn't know what she 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.879 wants to do. She doesn't really have any goals. She's 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:07.640 trying to figure it out. Did that I mean, do 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:10.279 you know young people like that that kind of helped 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:11.480 shape that character. 0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:14.200 Yeah, I do think. 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:16.640 I mean again, I don't want to get crucified, but 0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:20.640 I do think I've noticed in this younger generation a 0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:26.880 desire to try on identities and feel like there's something like, like, 0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:31.520 I don't know, courageous about about identity as a way 0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:35.000 to express yourself through whatever, like through the way you 0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:37.200 talk about yourself or the clothes you wear or whatever. 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:40.280 But like, ultimately it is very naval gazing, and it 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:41.799 adds to I think. 0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:47.240 Adds to malaise. I think it actually it makes. 0:36:47.040 --> 0:36:50.600 Your It's like the more you start, like, yeah, like 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:54.920 talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines, 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:58.520 it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve. 0:36:59.040 --> 0:37:02.320 So like I think a little bit of Porsche comes 0:37:02.360 --> 0:37:03.960 through and that I mean, I I I, you know, 0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:06.960 like I don't want to think that I'm totally you know, 0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:08.719 but like she's just like I want this and I 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:10.520 don't know if I just want to you've fulfilled and 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.200 it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:17.560 that that is just yeah, it's maybe it's yeah, maybe 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:20.439 it's agism. Maybe I'm just like I've become the person 0:37:20.480 --> 0:37:22.640 who makes you. But like I just when I was younger, 0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:24.120 it was just like it's it to me. I still 0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:27.200 feel like it's like you mean to like move outside 0:37:27.200 --> 0:37:31.000 of yourself, to like find courage and move outside of 0:37:31.040 --> 0:37:34.240 your own you know, it's like your own navel gazing 0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:37.200 to really then fully develop. 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:37.520 You know. 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:40.040 It's like if you're just always looking inside and doing 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:44.160 selfies and and calling yourself a different thing, and it's 0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:46.160 all about the clothes you're wearing, you know, it's like 0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:48.640 that that just feels like that's a that's going to 0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:49.719 be a dead end road. 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:51.080 So that's Porsia. 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:57.200 And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne. 0:37:57.239 --> 0:37:59.319 I have to say, I think Aubrey Plaza is my 0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:03.560 favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:06.800 state of ONWII that is now kind of morphed into 0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:10.439 something else all together. And I love what you're doing 0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:18.000 about jealousy with ethan and and Harper. So tell me 0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:19.880 a little bit about Harper's character. 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:24.239 Well, I Aubrey is a friend of mine and I 0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:25.919 wanted to get her in the show. So a little 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.680 bit of it started with just like, you know, Aubrey 0:38:29.760 --> 0:38:33.319 is a very complicated, interesting person, but she's kind of 0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:35.600 known for this sort of dead like the way she 0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:37.840 comes in at the beginning is kind of like maybe 0:38:37.920 --> 0:38:40.560 the way people see her or what thing they think 0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:44.000 that she's gonna be if she joins the white Lotus world, 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:47.680 but then start to show these other kind of more 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:50.600 vulnerable sides and that her toughness is a little bit 0:38:50.640 --> 0:38:54.400 of a front and and but I liked, you know, 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:56.960 like what I was trying to do with that whole 0:38:57.000 --> 0:38:59.960 storyline is, you know, it has to do with it's 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.759 kind of what brad status was as far as status, 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:07.239 but like with sec like what that we're always comparing 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:11.359 ourselves in our relationship to other people's relationships and what 0:39:11.440 --> 0:39:13.520 they have and what they it seems like they you know, 0:39:13.600 --> 0:39:15.440 like what they do better what they do worse? 0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:17.080 And how how? 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:19.759 And I was kind of playing a little bit at 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:22.560 the beginning where it's like you think, okay, here's start 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:26.200 like NPR listening like you know, liberal, like you know, 0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:27.520 like these are the good guys that are going to 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:30.240 relate to and then this other couple they're so vacuous 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:32.280 and you know, it's like but then kind of playing 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:35.600 a little bit with which is maybe that other couple 0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:37.200 is like dysfunctional and crazy. 0:39:37.239 --> 0:39:40.080 It's like, well they seem to be having more fun. 0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:42.719 Like you know, like that that that maybe you know, 0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:45.360 like maybe it's not as as simple as all of that, 0:39:45.560 --> 0:39:48.240 and and I don't want to give away the ending, 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:51.000 but yeah, how it all, How it all lands is 0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:53.920 kind of a little bit of insight into what I'm 0:39:54.040 --> 0:40:00.600 trying to not say, but like, yeah. 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:02.360 Try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected. I 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:03.000 guess it. 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:05.120 Also seems to be a bit of a commentary on 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.200 tech and finance bros. 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.040 Yeah, well, I just think. 0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:14.040 New money, new money status. 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:20.160 Competition, that weird sort of dance you play when you're 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:24.239 financially dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:29.000 sort of needs Ethan because He's made a boatload of 0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:32.640 money in tech, right, there's something weird about that dynamic. 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:34.440 Well, I definitely. 0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:38.680 I as a guy, I've been privy to lots of 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:42.960 conversations over the years. I live like next to Brentwood, 0:40:43.040 --> 0:40:45.560 so there's just like you know, the Brentwood Country Mart 0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:49.960 where like lawyers and finance people and whatever like people 0:40:50.000 --> 0:40:54.200 in my industry or whatever, and how they're buddies. But 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:58.160 like even in the in every conversation, you just sense 0:40:58.200 --> 0:41:00.880 this peacockying and like they're trying to figure out like 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.479 where they stand as far as who's making them more money, 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:06.080 you know, who makes like where? Yeah, it's uh, And 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:09.640 so that's always very funny to me because I I. 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:12.880 Don't I whatever, it's yeah. 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:15.000 So yeah, it was kind of playing with like yeah, 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:16.640 they're friends, but like are they friends? 0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:18.040 Like what are they? Like? 0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:21.239 Like the competition is so heavy that it's just like 0:41:21.320 --> 0:41:23.160 can they ever really be friends? You know? 0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:24.120 Yeah? 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:28.239 I find that whole sort of foursome fascinating And I 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:31.480 love f Marie Abraham, which I mean, by the way, 0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:33.839 what a what a feather in your cap to get 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:37.560 him to be in white Lotus. And then you've got 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:43.399 from the sopranos. You've got Michael Imperio. Imperio can help me. 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.840 With that, Michael Imperially Yeah, and. 0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:50.440 Who plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco 0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:55.400 who plays Albi. Uh so you have these three generations 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:56.880 of Italian Americans. 0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:00.480 Yeah, so yeah, yeah. 0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:05.000 Well, first of all, yes, Murray and Michael are I'm 0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:08.799 huge I was the huge fans of prior and then 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:14.200 working with them even more so. Murray is like, you know, 0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:16.320 he's I think he's eighty two years old and he's 0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:20.840 so still like enamored with the process and acting and 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:24.400 storytelling and it's inspiring. 0:42:24.440 --> 0:42:27.120 And Michael is one of the most he's in. 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:31.760 The pantheon of like the easiest, most like generous actors 0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:34.320 I've ever worked with. So like, those two are incredible. 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:36.000 And then of course Adam de mark is one of 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:38.360 the sweetest kids. So like they were a great group. 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:41.239 But like contextually, as far as the ideas of that, 0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:43.880 I just feel like, you know, I wanted you know, 0:42:43.960 --> 0:42:47.600 it's kind of getting into male sexuality and desire and 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:50.800 male role, you know, the role like you know, men's 0:42:50.880 --> 0:42:53.879 roles when it comes to romance and how they deal 0:42:53.920 --> 0:42:59.279 with the women and and just voicing the different generational 0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:04.319 attitudes in a kind of classic way, and how they're 0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:07.440 all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating 0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:12.440 with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:18.560 and interactions with women, that they're all kind of trapped 0:43:18.600 --> 0:43:19.840 in a certain sense. 0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:23.920 To Derek, who works on this podcast, who's one of 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:28.160 the producers, talked about how this season portrays a wide 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.799 variety of sexual relationships and entanglements, and you were just 0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:36.520 talking about sex, just as the opening title sequence portrays 0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:41.400 increasing debauchery in the art, as the rollicking theme song plays, 0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.560 the show itself feels like it's revealing more and more 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:48.960 about the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:52.799 it or given to it or both. Even these are 0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:56.920 Derek's observations, and I'm curious what you think of that, 0:43:57.160 --> 0:44:01.400 and sort of how you were trying to portray different 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:05.280 just different kinds of relationships. And for example, you portray 0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:10.359 sex workers, you know, Lucia and Mia, very differently than 0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:15.920 kind of what we normally see in TV books or movies. 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.960 Well, I, you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:22.800 you know, it should start with these kind of pretty 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:26.200 you know, like like you're going into a palazzo and 0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:29.560 the beautiful walls, and then you start seeing little things 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:32.279 in the corners and you realize there's this kind of 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:38.760 mischievous or even kind of creeper purvy like sexual things 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:41.239 that are happening in the margins. 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:43.839 And then by the end of the credit sequence, it's 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:44.520 almost like a. 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:49.560 Bosch painting of like just you know, and where you know, 0:44:49.880 --> 0:44:53.520 the carnality of it and the desire of it is 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:56.440 like front and center. And I felt like that with 0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:59.000 the season two, which is like you start off and 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:01.480 it's like, you know, a little bit of these repressed 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:04.960 people trying to like you know, figure out, like you know, 0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:08.400 how to have a good vacation, and that like being 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:12.400 in insight to of sicily and in this kind of 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:15.760 little crucible that like the desire and you start seeing 0:45:15.800 --> 0:45:18.080 desire and everyone and it's yeah, it becomes a very 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:18.840 horny show. 0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:21.040 And I just felt like it was like and especially 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:22.840 like you know, like and as far as like uh. 0:45:22.800 --> 0:45:26.799 Yeah, I mean and I I yeah, you know, I don't. 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:29.480 I don't think I'll always write stories like this. It's 0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:33.200 not certainly my wheelhouse, like directing scenes of like intimacy 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:35.520 between people and like getting people nude and stuff. 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:37.560 It's just like I was like, you know, like I 0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:42.160 was like, this is not something I'm doing. Yeah, I 0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:43.880 was like, whatever you guys want to do? 0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:47.360 Like what faithfully, you know, when you hire actors that 0:45:47.440 --> 0:45:50.880 are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am. So 0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:53.919 like they're like, you want me to take my top off? Yeah, sure, 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:58.560 if that's good, Sure there's cook yeah. So like so yeah, 0:45:58.640 --> 0:46:01.319 so that was but I but I but I do 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:03.719 feel like it was like it's fun to show I 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:06.920 actually think it's fun to show women horny horny women 0:46:07.000 --> 0:46:09.360 because I feel like that sometimes is something that like, 0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:12.640 you know, a lot of times in in drama it's 0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:17.719 like they're either victimized or virginal or like I don't 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:20.640 know it, or it's like this kind of like you know, 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:24.520 like they'll talk it's like sex in the city. It's 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.200 like it is it's very like talky, but like you know, 0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:31.080 where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the you know. 0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:34.600 It's like and you know, to me, that just feels 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:36.959 true to life in a way. 0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:39.920 I guess I don't know what else to put it. 0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:40.720 But anyway. 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:43.279 So so yeah, so I just thought it was like, 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:46.160 let's do sex, let's just go all in, and and 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:48.440 that was kind of the I was like, if we're 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:49.759 going to go all in, it's like by the end, 0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:52.120 you just want to feel like, yeah, the animal in 0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:53.680 the in each of these. 0:46:55.120 --> 0:46:56.120 Human characters. 0:46:57.000 --> 0:46:59.400 So this is the big question. Is there going to 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:01.600 be a White Law is three? Is there going to 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:02.440 be a third season? 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:05.440 Yes, they picked us up for a third season. 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:08.800 Yeah, so yes, where Mike, where? 0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:13.360 Well, I want to go to Asia, That's what I think. 0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:15.200 Look, I mean it feels like, you know, you start 0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:18.719 in like America they do, Europe feels like the next 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:19.399 one would be. 0:47:19.360 --> 0:47:21.440 I don't know. I don't know why that feels that. 0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:23.640 It's just like I'm trying to think, like, like, yeah, 0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:26.080 where does Katie Current go on vacation for you? 0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:28.439 Tell me? Actually, I you know what. I ran into 0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:29.680 you once on vacation. 0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:33.839 I was in Yeah, I was in Berlin, staying at 0:47:33.880 --> 0:47:37.400 a classic old hotel in the middle Berlin, I forget 0:47:37.400 --> 0:47:39.480 the name of it. And you were staying there at 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:42.239 the same time with Io. Ran into you. I ran 0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:44.840 I think we were like there the same days or whatever. 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:48.160 Because I ran into you. You're very friendly. You seem 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:53.480 like you're having a good time. He's still like smiling, good, great, 0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:55.080 and yeah, you guys. I don't know if you were 0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:57.600 there for work or vacation or whatever, but you were 0:47:57.920 --> 0:47:59.000 you were there for vacation. 0:47:59.160 --> 0:48:03.440 And you know, my husband John is a huge Survivor nut. 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:07.959 I mean, he has seen every season. He finds it fascinating. 0:48:08.400 --> 0:48:10.560 So he loves you from Survivor. 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:11.760 Oh that's cool. 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:13.920 Well, I think it was prior to me doing Survivor 0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:17.040 it was you were it might I think it was 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:18.960 what didn't Yeah. 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:21.400 Why I got married in twenty fourteen, so it was prob. 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:23.120 I think it was like after that, it was like 0:48:23.160 --> 0:48:24.160 twenty fifteen. 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:27.920 Yeah, it was twenty twenty sixteen. Maybe twenty fifteen. 0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:29.840 Yeah, I did Survivor twenty seventeen. 0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:32.120 Oh okay, Well, now. 0:48:32.560 --> 0:48:35.799 You seem very you know, you seem like you had 0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:36.920 happy energy. 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:40.960 I liked I liked you from just the vibe. 0:48:41.360 --> 0:48:44.040 Oh that's so nice. Well you is it. 0:48:44.120 --> 0:48:46.279 I don't want to spoil the finale, but do you 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:48.400 think we'll see Tanya in the third season? 0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:52.839 I love well, I love I love writing Tanya, and 0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:57.840 I love I love working with Jennifer, so definitely could be. 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:00.880 You can't tell me. If you tell me, you'd have 0:49:00.960 --> 0:49:03.360 to kill me, right, Mike, Why. 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.960 What do you mean you want to dies? Well? You 0:49:07.040 --> 0:49:13.080 never know. Could be I'm not telling you, you know, 0:49:13.120 --> 0:49:14.000 I don't want to ruin it. 0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:18.200 A huge thank you to my guest Mike White. I 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:21.480 imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday, December eleventh for 0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:24.320 the finale to find out who makes it out of 0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:28.640 the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever you're listening to this, 0:49:29.280 --> 0:49:30.600 Happy Benjin. 0:49:32.920 --> 0:49:33.719 Next Question with. 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:37.280 Katie Kirk is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media. 0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:41.240 The executive producers are Me, Katie Kirk, and Courtney Ltz. 0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:46.520 The supervising producer is Lauren Hanson. Associate producers Derek Clements 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:50.359 and Adriana Fazio. The show is edited and mixed by 0:49:50.400 --> 0:49:54.080 Derek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:56.719 sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go 0:49:56.840 --> 0:49:59.600 to Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me at 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:03.200 Katie correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:08.879 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:11.360 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.