WEBVTT - Democracy Forward's Jentleson on New Book 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.640 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:06.320 We know this past week is going to go down 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.080 in US history as the U. S. House of Representatives 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.880 impeach President Trump for a second time, with ten Republicans 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.400 voting in favor. We talked about that with Josh Green earlier. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.640 A reminder too, of the division and dysfunction we are 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.840 seeing in the GOP. For seven years, Adam Gentlesen has 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.919 been had an up close view of growing Senate dysfunction 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:26.920 as a top aid to former Democratic Majority leader Harry 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.320 Reid of Nevada. He writes about it in his new book, 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:31.319 Kill Switch, The Rise of the Modern Senate and the 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.919 Crippling of American Democracy. He is public affairs director at 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.360 Democracy Forward. It's a legal advocacy group against corruption in 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.519 the executive branch and government. Adam joins us on the 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.320 phone from Maryland. First of all, did I see your 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.280 last name correctly? I like to get it right. You did? 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.320 You did? All right? Well, Adam, it's great to have 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.360 you here. Congratulations. First, I've got to ask you before 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.480 we diggle a bit deeper into your book. Is the 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.000 last two weeks they hate the anger of the division, 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.800 the polarization. Are you surprised that we're here? I hate 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.120 to say it, but I'm not surprised. I think this 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:09.000 is the logical result of what the president has been 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:13.080 staking for the last four years. Um, And you know 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:14.760 something I talked about in the book. I mean, you know, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.080 the rise of these forces predates him. Um. He took 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.679 over the GOP in terms of assuming its leadership, but 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.119 a lot of the forces that propelled him to office 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.760 existed before he even stepped into the political arena. So 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.800 I think that it's horrible to see what we've been 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.280 seeing over the last week, but it is sort of 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.080 sadly the culmination of a lot of trends of extreme 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.800 partisanship that have been building for decades now. So explain 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.200 your title to kill switch? What do you mean? So? 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:45.720 When I worked in the Senate, one of the things 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:47.600 you hear a lot is that the Senate is supposed 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.440 to act as a cooling fauthor. This is dates back 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.200 to an apocryphal story about George Washington explaining to Thomas 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.760 Jefferson as they were drinking some tea, that the Senate 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.040 was supposed to act like the Fosster under Jefferson's tea. 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.640 There you would splash out of a saucer, cool on 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.680 the splash off the cup, and cool on the saucer 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.040 before I was ready to drink. Uh? What that was 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.080 true at a time? Um The founders created the Senate 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.680 to be delivered and thoughtful. They also created it to 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.280 not have a filibuster and to not have a supermajority 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.040 threshold for passing legislation. They created it as a majority 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.960 rule institution. It was designed to be thoughtful, but also 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.200 to get things done and for debate to be thorough 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.240 but limited. What we see today in the modern center 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.400 is a body that allows the party that's out of 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.760 power to use the rules of they as they have 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:40.120 come to evolve, to stop everything that comes before the chamber. 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.360 This combines with the forces of partisanship that are dominating 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.080 our politics today to turn the Senate from what was 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.919 once a cooling saucer now into a kill switch that 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.359 shuts down everything that the federal government tries to do. 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.560 And a big reason for that is in something that 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.320 you really dig deeply into in your book is the filibuster. 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.160 That's right, and so the book explains the historical evolution 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.320 of the filibuster. Um. This is something that you know, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.760 if folks know anything about the Senate, they tend to 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.200 know about the filibuster. And when they think of it, 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.519 they tend to think of Jimmy Stewart in Mr Smith 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.760 goes to Washington, right, holding the floor, talking at length. Uh, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.400 sort of using it as an underdog against the forces 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:25.280 of corruption and entrenched power. Um. The thing is, this 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.880 is not really what the filibuster has ever truly been 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.560 in practice. Uh. And even though it is directly associated 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.160 with the Senate in the popular imagination, it was not 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.120 part of the Senate and was not meant to be 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.560 part of the Senate. Um. When the Framers created the Senate, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.280 they did not include the filibuster. And not only did 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.240 they not include it, they argued against ever creating something 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.000 like it. They were writing the Constitution in the shadow 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.440 of the Articles of Confederation, which had established a super 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.680 majority threshold for most bills to pass Congress. The Framers 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.360 saw that that was a disaster, and they are dude 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.200 very clearly in the Federalist Papers and other writings that 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.000 establishing a supermajority threshold would have the direct effect of 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.680 giving what they called a pertinacious minority, the ability to 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.680 bring everything to a halt for the sole purpose of 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.680 embarrassing the majority. You know, they were realised, they understood 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.800 this essential fact of politics that you give the party 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:23.360 that's that a power of this ability to throw a 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.080 monkey engine in the system, they're going to use it. 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.040 It took basically two centuries for that power to evolve 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.560 in the way that it has today. But that is 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.520 what we've come to scene. That's what we've come to 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.280 see happen in the Senate is the minority use that 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.200 power and that monkey wrench, and exactly the way that 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.080 the Framers warned us they would. One thing I want 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.240 to ask you, um, take us back to the first 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:44.880 time you got to the Senate. What was it like? 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.480 What was your first experience of it? The first start 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.080 I got to the Senate, I was I was brought 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.880 up to meet my boss, Senator Harry Reid. And it's 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.200 an incredibly ornate building. I mean, unfortunately, a lot of 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.400 scenes are on display this last week of the inside 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.280 of the Capital for the wrong reasons. But when you're 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.960 there and able to appreciate it, it is incredibly dramatic. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.680 You've got painted walls, you've got arched ceilings, you've got 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.000 giant chandeliers, you've got historic portraits everywhere. It's overwhelming. Uh. 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.200 It feels a little bit like versa I uh in 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.200 a little bit uh, a little fancy for a democracy, 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.000 more than you might expect. Um. But it's an incredibly 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.680 intimidating place. Uh. And then the leader's office is they've 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.440 they've nicknamed at the taj Mahal for a good reason. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:32.200 It's got these huge views of them all, dramatic feelings, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.279 huge fireplaces. It's it's a lot to take in, is 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.440 as a young staffer. Um. Yeah, And I think it's 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.479 interesting when we read about right, we grew up reading 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.040 about history. We read about the capital, and it is something. 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:42.680 It's got it. It must have just been something to 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.159 actually be kind of part of it. Then uh and 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.480 didn't live up to your expectations? Did it? Did it 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.720 go beyond your expectations or did it start to disappoint 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:59.960 how quick? My big yeah, pretty quickly. My big tickle 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.440 a was was the big, massive gap between what you 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.800 expect from such a grand institution and what it was 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.640 able to produce. Uh. You know, I was there during 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.520 a period of historic gridlock. One of the defining experiences 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:14.400 for me I talked about us in the book was 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.559 after the murder of twenty first creators in Newtown, Connecticut. Uh. 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.040 The absolute failure of the Senate to pass any kind 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.640 of policy solution, even in the middle of the road. Uh. 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.080 Some might argue, not even not even strong enough policy 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.080 like background checks. Um, it is stunning. You know, this 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.400 institution that has a reputation for being slow and has 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.640 a reputation for working in a deliberative fashion. But I 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.280 think that in many ways has been used as an 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.880 excuse for it to simply do nothing. And I think 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:43.839 that's the problem that we're seeing today. We as we 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.400 as a federal government are simply unable to operate in 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.919 an intelligent way to meet the policy challenges that we face. 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:51.840 And and part of what I argue in the book 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:53.800 is that we need to find ways to restore the Senate, 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.840 to keep what's good about it, to can let it 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.480 continue to be a deliberative body, but actually make it 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.400 be a ace where good ideas don't just go to die. 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.880 Good ideas go there to be developed and perfected and 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.680 then actually passed. What's been miss McConnell's role in all 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.280 of this, well, no one has done more to increase 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.840 gridlock in dysfunction in Congress than Miss McConnell. When he 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:18.920 took over as leader, there was a historic rise in 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:20.880 the use of the filibuster under his watch and at 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.120 his direction. I should be clear about that. Um. It 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.520 was explicitly a strategy of his. He decided when President 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.920 Obama came into office that he could attack Obama's core 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.600 political brand of fixing our broken politics in Washington, something 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.360 President Obama talked about from his convention speech in two 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.760 thousand four all the way up through his inauguration in 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.320 two thousand and eight. McConnell knew that if he used 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.440 the tools of obstruction at his disposal, even though at 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.920 the time he represented the minority of Senators representing just 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:51.239 thirty five of the American population, that he could bring 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.920 that political brand down to earth and voters would see 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.280 a gridlock Washington. They would see that Obama had not 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.360 delivered on his promises, and then Republicans would have roped 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.680 to massive political victories, as they did almost immediately in 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.280 the two dozen and ten midterms, and Republicans gained enormous 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.840 numbers of seats in both the House and Senate. So 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.920 you know, he brought gridlock. The problem is it worked 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.400 and that has increased the incentives for both sides to 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.280 deploy gridlock, which is a shame. Right, This whole idea 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.200 of bipartisan deals, I think, you know, go back multiple decades. 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.880 I've said this a million times Adam on Air. I 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.960 remember being in a a Bloomberg event. This was a few 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.840 years ago, and it was Alan Greenspan and he said 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.120 when he got to Washington in the seventies, he'd go 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.840 to a social event and you would have both Democrats 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.800 and Republicans at that social event, socializing. He said, now 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.160 you would do something and this was mind you still 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:44.839 a few years ago, but he said, you'd go somewhere 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.600 and it was either all Democrats are all Republicans. You know, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.560 how did we get so far away from from being 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.840 you know, lawmakers represented by we the people, um to 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.440 do our bidding right while we go about working supporting 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.360 our families. Right. It was interesting. I had a car 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.079 ride in this morning. Is an immigrant and older individual, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.080 very thoughtful. He said, we're the ones you and me. 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.720 He pointed to me, you know, to keep the engine going, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.080 the engine being the economy. He said, our voice, we 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:14.920 vote for those to protect us. We put you there 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:16.800 to be our eyes, and this is what you give us. 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:18.960 He said. The word that describes this moment for him 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.200 politically is betrayal. I had to write it down because 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.800 it just stood with me. But right, this is what 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.000 our lawmakers are, policymakers, Democrats and both Republicans. I hate 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.360 to point the finger, but you know, it's just becomes 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.120 so dysfunctional. No, that's absolutely right. And the problem is 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.120 that our political system has come to incentivize gridlock. Uh. 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.360 You know, these are larger forces at work. These are 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.840 the forces of polarization that we see in all aspects 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.080 of our lives, right where we shock. Uh you know 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.720 what what we watch on TV, all those things, the 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.760 big sort. Uh, it's come to the Senate. And the 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.160 Senate was one of the last American institutions to actually 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.640 fall to this sorting. But it has fallen now. Uh. 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.200 And what that means is that the party that's out 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.840 of power has enormous incentives to block the other side 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:04.880 so that they can regain power. Now, one of the 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:06.679 things that's interesting here is that you would expect sort 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.000 of narrow majorities to increase the possibility for bipartisanship. Right, 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.960 they're both parties sort of have evenly balanced power, maybe 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.720 they'll work together. The problem is political scientists have found 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.920 for for decades now, is that narrow majorities actually increase 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.920 the incentives to obstruct because the party that's out of 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.080 power knows it only takes one or two more seats 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.079 for them to get back into power. So if they 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.160 make the party in power look bad, they the party 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.720 out of power and the very next election can ride 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.599 that voter discontent back to power by gaining just a 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.080 few seats. Some narrow majorities can actually be very bad 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.679 for cooperation. One last quick question, Is there a simple 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.120 way out? I think I think you need to Yeah, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:44.680 I think you need to get rid of the filibuster, 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.040 but also restore some living incentives for senators to be 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.640 on the floor together, to talk to each other, to 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.080 bring amendments to the floor, to deconstruct the power of 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.680 leadership so that rank and file senators can bring bills 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.240 to the floor. You need to make the Senate the 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.439 free and open place again. That's what it was designed 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.280 to be, and I think you need to it back 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.000 to that God. It's time to like pull out the 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:03.760 history books and remember what this is supposed to be 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.800 all about. Adam Gentlesen, thank you so much. Public Affairs Director, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.240 Democracy Forward, former Deputy chief of Staff to Senator Harry Read. 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.720 His new book that is out, Kill Switch, The Rise 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.199 of the Modern Senate and the Crippling of American Democracy 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.280 really just gets to the heart of some of our problems.