WEBVTT - Unruly Airline Passengers Rarely Face Criminal Charges

0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960
<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio.

0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Rage in the Sky passengers have hit flood attendants in

0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.599
<v Speaker 1>the face, interfered with the flight crew, and refused to

0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:28.000
<v Speaker 1>wear masks, among other things. What what what what? What?

0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Boys remains We're going to part every advocate, Police and

0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:40.280
<v Speaker 1>authorities will be boarding between to arrestide time. The reports

0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.760
<v Speaker 1>of unruly passengers during the pandemic this year far exceeded

0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.159
<v Speaker 1>anything the Federal Aviation Administration has seen in the past.

0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.200
<v Speaker 1>Yet few passengers faced criminal charges. Joining me is Alan Levin,

0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Aviation reporter start by telling us about this passenger

0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:05.039
<v Speaker 1>on the Alaska Airlines flight in January from Seattle. Yeah,

0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.680
<v Speaker 1>that's actually a really interesting case. This was an Alaska

0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Airlines flight in Seattle. It was just about to depart

0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.800
<v Speaker 1>and a man on the flight allegedly began calling one

0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.880
<v Speaker 1>reporting a hijacking and was quite vivid. He said there

0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.119
<v Speaker 1>was a hijacker who had a flight attendant at knife point.

0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:30.120
<v Speaker 1>There were multiple calls the plane, I guess it began

0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:35.040
<v Speaker 1>to depart, but then authority notified the airport lane was

0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:40.360
<v Speaker 1>taxi to a secure area. Police came on board to

0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:45.199
<v Speaker 1>start the situation out. And during this time he also

0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.160
<v Speaker 1>called the FBI and made some sort of vague reference

0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.840
<v Speaker 1>to a bomb. Now, you know, once a hijacking is

0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.720
<v Speaker 1>reported like that, you have to re screen the passengers

0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.280
<v Speaker 1>and they had to rescreen all the bags to make

0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:00.440
<v Speaker 1>sure there was no bomb on board, check all the

0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.040
<v Speaker 1>passengers to make sure nobody had a knife that was reported, etcetera.

0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.040
<v Speaker 1>And under federal law, making a false report of a

0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.840
<v Speaker 1>hijackie it's quite a serious criminal charge. It carries a

0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.560
<v Speaker 1>five up to five year prison term along with a

0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.680
<v Speaker 1>have to be fine, etcetera. But this is sort of

0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.639
<v Speaker 1>what happened to some of these unruly passenger cases. It

0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:26.080
<v Speaker 1>was referred to the county prosecutor in Under Washington state law,

0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.200
<v Speaker 1>there is no equivalent charge to making a false hijacking report.

0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.239
<v Speaker 1>There are you know, serious sylonies in mistakes for things

0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.600
<v Speaker 1>like making a threat. But in this particular case, the

0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.639
<v Speaker 1>hoax threats there was no knife, there was no bomb,

0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.399
<v Speaker 1>there was no real threat. So they've not been able

0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:47.480
<v Speaker 1>to charge this individual. They're looking at making filing charges

0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.520
<v Speaker 1>on a misdemeanor account of making a false report, which is,

0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, less serious matter and we were not able

0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.800
<v Speaker 1>to determine why, but the case was never referred to

0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.079
<v Speaker 1>the federal government and no charge federal ars are being brought.

0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.200
<v Speaker 1>So it's sort of illustrates the difficulty in these cases

0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.400
<v Speaker 1>tell us about the spike in cases. By all accounts,

0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.799
<v Speaker 1>it's been a huge increase this year. So far, there've

0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:17.000
<v Speaker 1>been about thirty reports of unruly passengers. They sort of

0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.160
<v Speaker 1>run the gamut, but by and large, the biggest category

0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.480
<v Speaker 1>is some form of people not wanting to wear their

0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.320
<v Speaker 1>based mask, which are now required, so either objecting to

0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:31.000
<v Speaker 1>wearing the mask or not wearing it properly, or becoming

0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.800
<v Speaker 1>abusive to the flight attendants after they ask you to

0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.880
<v Speaker 1>wear the mask. That seems to be one of the

0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:40.200
<v Speaker 1>biggest common denominators. There also has been a thread. A

0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.840
<v Speaker 1>lot of these events occurred just before and just after

0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.480
<v Speaker 1>the January six storming of the US capital, and so

0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.680
<v Speaker 1>there's kind of a political thread that runs through this

0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.880
<v Speaker 1>phenomenon as well. In some cases, people are escorted off

0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.400
<v Speaker 1>flights for voicing political views loudly and that sort of

0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.520
<v Speaker 1>thing and sing. So do people actually get arrested who

0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.720
<v Speaker 1>arrest them? Well, that's one of the issues that makes

0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.000
<v Speaker 1>it difficult is that the federal government by and large

0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.440
<v Speaker 1>overseas the aviation industry, and that's largely the case when

0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.080
<v Speaker 1>it comes to behavior on a plane, but with only

0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.040
<v Speaker 1>a rare exceptions, there are no federal agents at airport,

0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.840
<v Speaker 1>so it tends to be some sort of a local

0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.120
<v Speaker 1>police force. Each airport is different. You know, sometimes they

0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.159
<v Speaker 1>have their own police force at the airport, but often

0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.919
<v Speaker 1>it's a state or local entity in which the airport

0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.599
<v Speaker 1>is located. So they will escort people off aircraft. At times,

0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.480
<v Speaker 1>they'll make an arrest, but you know, if the activity

0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.640
<v Speaker 1>occurred in flight, it may not even be in that

0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.280
<v Speaker 1>police force's jurisdiction, and so they may have limited ability

0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.200
<v Speaker 1>to bring charges. We have seen cases where the plane

0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.120
<v Speaker 1>is parked at the gate and the door is open

0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.880
<v Speaker 1>and there's an assault on a plane, for example, that

0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:01.679
<v Speaker 1>may fall under the local police's jurisdiction. But generally speaking,

0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.760
<v Speaker 1>when the doors are closed and the plane has hold

0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.559
<v Speaker 1>back and begin taxing to the runway, and then also

0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:10.719
<v Speaker 1>obviously in flight, it becomes a federal issue, and so

0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.479
<v Speaker 1>the powers of the local police are somewhat limited. What

0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.480
<v Speaker 1>about the f A A. Why aren't they handling these cases,

0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.040
<v Speaker 1>So that's a very good question. The f a A,

0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.839
<v Speaker 1>I think it's fair to say, is the entity that

0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.360
<v Speaker 1>jumped in most aggressively here to try to stem the

0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.039
<v Speaker 1>stig increase. But they only have civil powers, so they

0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.960
<v Speaker 1>can't bring criminal charges. But they have initiated enforcement actions

0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.520
<v Speaker 1>and what that allows them to do is to collect

0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.159
<v Speaker 1>fine But they're not a police force and they don't

0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.880
<v Speaker 1>have legal authority to bring any of them. So when

0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.840
<v Speaker 1>there's an incident, let's say, where there is a physical

0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:53.440
<v Speaker 1>altercation and someone gets injured, what happens in those cases

0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.400
<v Speaker 1>are charges brought? Well, it sort of runs the gamut,

0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.720
<v Speaker 1>But there's a big distinction to be made between two

0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.920
<v Speaker 1>passengers fighting each other, which you know is obviously serious

0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.720
<v Speaker 1>and could injure other people. But that's distinct from a

0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:13.200
<v Speaker 1>passenger hitting and or otherwise interfering with the work of

0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.000
<v Speaker 1>a flight crew that is governed by federal statute and

0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.719
<v Speaker 1>carries the penalty up to twenty years by the serious offense,

0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.760
<v Speaker 1>I would say they rarely charge people who aren't terrorists

0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.280
<v Speaker 1>with that charge to the fullest extent. But we checked

0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the federal docket around the country and there were a

0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:35.400
<v Speaker 1>total of twelve cases filed under that statute this calendar

0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.320
<v Speaker 1>year so far. How difficult are these cases for federal

0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:44.120
<v Speaker 1>prosecutors to make? These are cases where the witnesses all dispersed.

0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.160
<v Speaker 1>You may get statements from flight attendants, but they likely

0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.960
<v Speaker 1>weren't obtained from a trained, you know, FBI agent or

0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.640
<v Speaker 1>somebody who knows what's needed to bring a prosecution. And

0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.440
<v Speaker 1>then it may also require tracking down other passengers who

0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.440
<v Speaker 1>are witness says, so it can take quite a bit

0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.520
<v Speaker 1>of effort to put a case together. Has there been

0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:10.120
<v Speaker 1>a push recently to have more passengers criminally charged? Yes,

0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.920
<v Speaker 1>so the airline industry and that includes their unions. The

0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.960
<v Speaker 1>flight attendant unions in particular on the front lines having

0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.280
<v Speaker 1>to deal with this, wrote a letter to the Justice

0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Department last month asking that they take more action to

0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.440
<v Speaker 1>bring charges. Attorney General Merrick Garland was asked about this

0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.520
<v Speaker 1>at a Senate hearing last month, and he said that

0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.240
<v Speaker 1>at least the most egregious cases are clearly criminal matters,

0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.040
<v Speaker 1>not civil, And he said he's still developing a policy,

0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.800
<v Speaker 1>but that they did take it seriously. You know, it's

0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.160
<v Speaker 1>hard when you have such a small number of cases

0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.800
<v Speaker 1>to see any actual trends. I think it's fair to

0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.120
<v Speaker 1>say that so far this year, the number of cases

0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.160
<v Speaker 1>brought at least under the statute for interfering with the

0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.080
<v Speaker 1>flight attendant is about the same as they've seen the

0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.360
<v Speaker 1>past two years. They ranged from about six team to

0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.480
<v Speaker 1>twenty cases per year. Thanks Alan. That's Alan Levin, Bloomberg

0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:10.200
<v Speaker 1>News Aviation reporter. The US Justice Department will investigate the

0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.400
<v Speaker 1>City of Phoenix and its police department for potential civil

0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:18.120
<v Speaker 1>rights violations, including sweeps of homeless encampments, the third such

0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.680
<v Speaker 1>investigation of policing since President Joe Biden took office. Joining

0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.320
<v Speaker 1>me is David Harris, a professor at the University of

0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:29.640
<v Speaker 1>Pittsburgh School of Law and host of the Criminal Injustice podcast.

0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:34.000
<v Speaker 1>So why is the Justice Department launching this civil investigation?

0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:39.040
<v Speaker 1>The Civil Rights Division and the federal government can't investigate

0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.440
<v Speaker 1>any old police department and things might be doing a

0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.839
<v Speaker 1>better job than it is. The only reason that they

0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.800
<v Speaker 1>can launch these investigations is if they think that there

0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:55.480
<v Speaker 1>may be a pattern of constitutional violations here. This is

0:08:55.480 --> 0:09:00.120
<v Speaker 1>certainly true with the investigation launched of Minneapolis Police and

0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.400
<v Speaker 1>Louisville Police, and here they have information that leads them

0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:09.160
<v Speaker 1>to think that there is a pattern of constitutional level abuse.

0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.040
<v Speaker 1>So they do this not because there's one bad incident

0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.600
<v Speaker 1>or one bad shooting, or even a couple. They do

0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:21.160
<v Speaker 1>this because they see a pattern of violations of constitutional rights.

0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.840
<v Speaker 1>In the case of the police departments that they've recently

0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:30.319
<v Speaker 1>investigated it in a similar way. In Minneapolis, the death

0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.920
<v Speaker 1>of George Floyd was a motivating factor, and in Louisville,

0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.079
<v Speaker 1>the shooting of Briana Taylor was a motivating factor. This

0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:44.040
<v Speaker 1>is based on whether law enforcement is violating the rights

0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.920
<v Speaker 1>of homeless people in Phoenix by seizing and disposing of

0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:53.160
<v Speaker 1>their belongings. That's the headline allegation at this point, But

0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.040
<v Speaker 1>the Justice Department made it clear that that wasn't the

0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.880
<v Speaker 1>only thing that they were looking at. They were looking

0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.040
<v Speaker 1>at us as a four. They were looking at the

0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:05.040
<v Speaker 1>way that the Phoenix police have handled demonstrations and a

0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.600
<v Speaker 1>number of other things. The things that they have in

0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.440
<v Speaker 1>common is that all of them are potential violations of

0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.360
<v Speaker 1>constitutional rights. So it's not a matter of not following

0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.400
<v Speaker 1>best practices or making a mistake here and there. It's

0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:24.360
<v Speaker 1>a matter of finding a pattern of constitutional level wrongdoing.

0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:28.839
<v Speaker 1>In the case of Phoenix. The thing that apparently drew

0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:34.400
<v Speaker 1>the most attention from law enforcement perspectives was the way

0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:39.040
<v Speaker 1>that the city was dealing with its homeless population, sweeps

0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.440
<v Speaker 1>through homeless encampments and so forth. It sounds like what's

0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.120
<v Speaker 1>happening in the other cities that they've chosen to investigate

0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.440
<v Speaker 1>is more serious then what's happening in Phoenix. Now. Is

0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.440
<v Speaker 1>that just because there's other reasons or is that because

0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.920
<v Speaker 1>it is less serious? Well, I think the important thing

0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.840
<v Speaker 1>to look for is not the seriousness of the sort

0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.680
<v Speaker 1>of headline incident that might have attracted notice in the

0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.959
<v Speaker 1>first place. Uh, even one very bad in custody death

0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.440
<v Speaker 1>or shooting is not enough to allow the federal government

0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.840
<v Speaker 1>to have jurisdiction over a local police department. What they're

0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.480
<v Speaker 1>looking for is a pattern of use of force, a

0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:31.880
<v Speaker 1>pattern of bad search warrant executions like they had in Louisville.

0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.120
<v Speaker 1>It's that pattern that makes the difference. The fact that

0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.960
<v Speaker 1>we the public might know about just one important bad

0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.040
<v Speaker 1>incident isn't what really brings in the justice department. It

0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.000
<v Speaker 1>might attract the attention of the Justice department first, but

0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.760
<v Speaker 1>the thing that keeps them there and that gives them

0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:54.360
<v Speaker 1>jurisdiction is the existence of a pattern of constitutional violations.

0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.080
<v Speaker 1>That can be stopping frisk, that can be the use

0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.880
<v Speaker 1>of force, that can be uh the way that people

0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.200
<v Speaker 1>are prosecuted, the way that complaints are handled. As long

0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:11.320
<v Speaker 1>as there's a pattern of constitutional violation, it doesn't require

0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.840
<v Speaker 1>the most serious kind of catastrophe like the death of

0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:19.840
<v Speaker 1>George Floyd. What's important is whether or not there's a

0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.000
<v Speaker 1>pattern of violation of the constitution. If you have that,

0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.600
<v Speaker 1>it's enough to give the Justice Department jurisdiction. What I

0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:32.440
<v Speaker 1>found interesting was that Attorney General Merrick Garland said, too

0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.440
<v Speaker 1>often we asked law enforcement officers to be the first

0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.000
<v Speaker 1>and last option for addressing issues that should not be

0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:43.920
<v Speaker 1>handled by our criminal justice system. Well, it's very interesting

0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.360
<v Speaker 1>to hear how he talked about it, because what it

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.199
<v Speaker 1>was was an acknowledgement of what many of us have

0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.760
<v Speaker 1>come to understand really only in the last year, and

0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:58.520
<v Speaker 1>that is we look at police as the answer to everything,

0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.320
<v Speaker 1>and they're clearly not. They're not trained to respond to

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.760
<v Speaker 1>mental illness and mental health crisis. They're not really trained

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.280
<v Speaker 1>to respond the crises of homelessness or drug addiction, and

0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.200
<v Speaker 1>too often they're the only agency in any given city

0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 1>that may be available to do those sorts of things,

0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 1>and they're given those tasks, even though we could easily

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.240
<v Speaker 1>imagine that an agency made up of social workers or

0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.640
<v Speaker 1>other kinds of people would be better suited to these

0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.920
<v Speaker 1>kinds of tasks. Police or police, they're going to use

0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.000
<v Speaker 1>the tools that they know and the training that they have.

0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.760
<v Speaker 1>And so what Garland is saying is that he's acknowledging

0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.440
<v Speaker 1>that maybe police weren't the right ones to do this.

0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.200
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's not their fault that they got sent in

0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.440
<v Speaker 1>like that, but in any case, since they were there

0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.720
<v Speaker 1>and they were given that job, the end result may

0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:56.400
<v Speaker 1>have been a pattern of constitutional violation. So it's a

0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.520
<v Speaker 1>way of talking and addressing a problem that acknowledge the

0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.360
<v Speaker 1>difficulties that law enforcement has been forced to confront that

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 1>maybe aren't really in its wheelhouse, and then aren't the

0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:13.199
<v Speaker 1>best suited for police? We should have other agencies doing that.

0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 1>What do they do when they go in joing these investigations?

0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.840
<v Speaker 1>How are they better suited? Then, Let's say in an

0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.520
<v Speaker 1>internal investigation by the local police department. The first thing

0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 1>is that they are independent of local law enforcement and prosecution.

0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 1>And if there is a long standard standing pattern of

0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 1>constitutional violation of unconstitutional policing. Typically, people uh in the

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:47.480
<v Speaker 1>jurisdiction would not trust an internal investigation of the police

0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 1>investigating themselves. That's one of the reasons that we have

0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.680
<v Speaker 1>civilian oversight in many cities of this country. So Number

0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.480
<v Speaker 1>one is that they are independent of any of the

0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.760
<v Speaker 1>local actors. Number Two, they do a comprehensive review. They

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.160
<v Speaker 1>talked to the public, they talked to officers, they talked

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.880
<v Speaker 1>to the command staff, and you better believe that they

0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 1>get every document out of that police department that might

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:19.360
<v Speaker 1>shine a light on current practices and patterns, so that

0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 1>they really understand what has gone on in the past,

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.000
<v Speaker 1>what the structures are, why things are functioning or not

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 1>functioning the way that they are. So it's a very

0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:34.080
<v Speaker 1>deep and comprehensive look at how the department is operating

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 1>on a day to day basis, month to month and

0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.240
<v Speaker 1>year in and year out, so that they have a

0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.480
<v Speaker 1>full and complete picture. And they do this with input

0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.320
<v Speaker 1>from all of the stakeholder groups you can think of,

0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.360
<v Speaker 1>from the public to the inside of the police department

0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 1>to the police union. I think in the past, and

0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.520
<v Speaker 1>I say this from the point of view of Pittsburgh,

0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.920
<v Speaker 1>having been the very first, very first big city to

0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.760
<v Speaker 1>undergo one of these consent decree back in nine In

0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.160
<v Speaker 1>the past, they wouldn't do such a thorough job. They

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't talk to all the stakeholders, they might not talk

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 1>to the public, and therefore they didn't always come up

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>with the best answers. They have a much wider view

0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.600
<v Speaker 1>of things now. Uh, they want to take into account

0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.360
<v Speaker 1>everybody's a point of view. Uh, they want to know

0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.320
<v Speaker 1>the full picture of what's happening. It sounds really intense.

0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.800
<v Speaker 1>How long do these investigations take. They can take a while.

0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 1>It depends on the degree of cooperation that they get

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.920
<v Speaker 1>from the municipality and from the police department. UM. It

0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>depends on what kind of resistance they might be internally

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in the police department UM, and how many stakeholder groups

0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.800
<v Speaker 1>they figured they need to talk to. Already, I was

0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.000
<v Speaker 1>reading that in Minneapolis and in Louisville, where they've been

0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.600
<v Speaker 1>working on this already for some months, they've talked to

0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.760
<v Speaker 1>something like a thousand different people in each of those aces.

0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.600
<v Speaker 1>So you'd expect an investigation that will last month. The

0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.240
<v Speaker 1>most important thing is that they be through and that

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 1>they get it right. Uh, so that they can come

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>out of it with the comprehensive plan for rebuilding, reinforcing,

0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:21.119
<v Speaker 1>even recreating the necessary structures to give the people of

0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 1>Phoenix policing that obeys the Constitution and that gives them

0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the kind of public safety service that they need. So

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.920
<v Speaker 1>they take the time that that that they need. If

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.800
<v Speaker 1>there's more resistance, it takes more time. Since Garland became

0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.399
<v Speaker 1>the a G in March, there are three civil rights

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.360
<v Speaker 1>investigations of police undertaken by the Justice Department. What does

0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 1>that signal? Is it too much too soon? No? I

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.159
<v Speaker 1>don't think so, Because the incidents and the precipitating events

0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:59.320
<v Speaker 1>in both Louisville and Minneapolis told you from the first

0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 1>minute of the new administration that there would be pattern

0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 1>of practiced investigations in those cities. I think that was

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.360
<v Speaker 1>a total non surprise. This is really the first one

0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.000
<v Speaker 1>if you look at it that way, and uh, launching

0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.760
<v Speaker 1>the first one in the first few months of the administration. No,

0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's too much too soon. I think

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 1>that we should expect more of these. We know that

0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:26.679
<v Speaker 1>the Trump administration basically shut this process down entirely. Former

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:32.800
<v Speaker 1>Attorney General Jeff Sessions went into that job announcing, well

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.359
<v Speaker 1>known as an opponent of these investigations, that there was

0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.840
<v Speaker 1>going to be no more of this stuff. He considered

0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 1>it wrong, even though the federal statute that authorizes it,

0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.800
<v Speaker 1>and Attorney General Bill Barr was really no better. And

0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.919
<v Speaker 1>so it's not a surprise at all that we have

0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 1>the first of these in Garland's first few months, along

0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:59.520
<v Speaker 1>with the totally expected investigations into Minneapolis and Louisville. So

0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.000
<v Speaker 1>in the past it usually ends up being a consent decree.

0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.199
<v Speaker 1>How have these worked out in the past. Have some

0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.720
<v Speaker 1>of them worked better than others? Yes, in a word,

0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:15.399
<v Speaker 1>absolutely yes, some of them. The process has been much

0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:19.600
<v Speaker 1>longer than anybody would hope. In at least one case,

0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:24.159
<v Speaker 1>New Orleans, they needed a second intervention when the first

0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.720
<v Speaker 1>proved inadequate. Here in Pittsburgh, where I live, the first

0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 1>consent decree to ever be done in a big city.

0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.080
<v Speaker 1>UH did a lot for the police department in those

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.639
<v Speaker 1>five years that it was in effect. But within just

0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.639
<v Speaker 1>a couple more years there had been a turnover of

0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 1>mayors and police chiefs and so forth, and there were

0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.040
<v Speaker 1>very few people in the higher echelon divided the police

0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.119
<v Speaker 1>chief of the city that was very committed to the

0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:57.480
<v Speaker 1>agreement anymore, and therefore it kind of fell away. In Cincinnati,

0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.320
<v Speaker 1>it did really train insform that police department, and it's

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.360
<v Speaker 1>a much better police department than it used to be

0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:09.879
<v Speaker 1>even now almost twenty years later. So it you know,

0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.639
<v Speaker 1>some of them have been more successful than others. I

0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.720
<v Speaker 1>think that's fair to say. Are they costly, Yes, they

0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 1>are um but the price of unconstitutional policing people need

0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.520
<v Speaker 1>to remember that has a price too. It has a

0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.840
<v Speaker 1>price in the confidence of people in their police department,

0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.359
<v Speaker 1>their belief that the police department is legitimate and is

0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.240
<v Speaker 1>on their side. And then of course the millions and

0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.760
<v Speaker 1>millions of dollars that many cities have to pay when

0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.040
<v Speaker 1>police officers violate the law in the constitution. They have

0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.760
<v Speaker 1>to pay those and damage it. So any thoughts about

0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.160
<v Speaker 1>the cost of these things in the length of time

0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.959
<v Speaker 1>they take, you have to compare that to not doing them. Uh,

0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 1>And there is a substantial cost to lack of intervention

0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.480
<v Speaker 1>as well. Thanks so much for being on the show, David.

0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 1>That's David Harris. He's a professor at the University of Pittsburgh.

0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Law school and host of the Criminal Injustice podcast. Remember,

0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.280
<v Speaker 1>you could always at the latest legal news on our

0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:13.119
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Law podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 1>and at www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, slash Law.

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg