Speaker 1: You can become genuinely generally more attractive. Yes, by doing
Speaker 1: certain things you talk about appearance, you can increase your
Speaker 1: fashion and fitness is something we all can improve, no
Speaker 1: matter how your how many eyes you have or noses
Speaker 1: you have.
Speaker 2: It's pretty simple, Like it doesn't it's not very hard,
Speaker 2: and honestly, like men have it way easier the women
Speaker 2: on that front, Like it's it's crazy, Like you just
Speaker 2: I don't know, like take a shower and like fucking
Speaker 2: comb your hair and put on a decent shirt and
Speaker 2: like you're halfway there.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. I am doctor
Speaker 3: Scott Barry Kaufman, a cognitive scientist interested in plumbing the
Speaker 3: depths of human potential. In this episode, I talk with
Speaker 3: best selling author and my friend Mark Manson about what
Speaker 3: women really want in a man. In addition to writing
Speaker 3: multiple best selling books such as The Subtle Art of
Speaker 3: Not Giving a Fuck and Everything Is Fun, Mark has
Speaker 3: a past as a successful dating coach. Mark put a
Speaker 3: lot of his insights into dating and seduction in his
Speaker 3: twenty eleven book Models Attract Women Through Honesty. The contents
Speaker 3: of that book are the focus of today's Really Fun
Speaker 3: and enlightening conversation. So that's for their ADO.
Speaker 1: I bring you Mark manson Sunday podcast.
Speaker 2: This feels like it feels more casual.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, super task.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like more chill. You know we're we're off the clock. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm off the call. I don't know about you.
Speaker 1: But I am off a clock. I've gone down the
Speaker 1: rabbit hole of your prior life.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, all right, I'm ready.
Speaker 1: In seduction community, well, what was it called that, the
Speaker 1: pickup artist with the seduction community seduction?
Speaker 2: I think we seduction community prior to the pickup artist community,
Speaker 2: and then these days, I don't know what it's called.
Speaker 1: I think they've rebranded like red.
Speaker 2: Pill or Manisphere something. Ah.
Speaker 1: But I really want to have a really nerdy conversation
Speaker 1: with you at a really high level about whether nice
Speaker 1: guys really finished last. And there's multiple ways you could
Speaker 1: phrase the question. You could also do the inverse and
Speaker 1: say do assholes really get ahead in the dating walm
Speaker 1: And you know, maybe they're both opposite questions, or maybe
Speaker 1: they're powerlell questions. But this question about we know for
Speaker 1: a fact, throughout the course of millennia there are many
Speaker 1: many self perceived nice guys who have been feeling like
Speaker 1: they are being left out of the you know, and
Speaker 1: understanding that and understanding like what's really going on? You know,
Speaker 1: what do women really want? Now, maybe some listeners would say,
Speaker 1: well I should ask a woman that, not ask you know,
Speaker 1: Mark Manson. But you've done a deep dive into this
Speaker 1: at one point in your life, and you had a
Speaker 1: lot of experience. I mean you went out there and
Speaker 1: put yourself on the line.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a professional and vating coach for men
Speaker 2: for four years, about four or five years. I worked
Speaker 2: with hundreds of men, wrote hundreds of articles, wrote a
Speaker 2: book which is still quite popular today.
Speaker 1: It's called Models.
Speaker 2: I tracked women through honesty.
Speaker 1: Tracked women through honesty. So you put your you put
Speaker 1: yourself on the line where you were okay being ejected,
Speaker 1: you were okay learning what women wants and learning that
Speaker 1: not all women are the same too. It's something you've
Speaker 1: learned also true, right, Different women want different things at
Speaker 1: different ages. So there's a lot of nuance here. You
Speaker 1: know a major theme of your book is neediness. Okay,
Speaker 1: what what do you how do you even define neediness?
Speaker 1: And why is that so important? When you're trying to
Speaker 1: attract someone.
Speaker 2: And I define needingess as a prioritization of other people's
Speaker 2: opinions about you over your own opinion about you. So
Speaker 2: it's if I'm if I am, And the way that
Speaker 2: actually manifests itself in behavior is that if I'm prioritizing
Speaker 2: your opinion of me over my own, I will censor
Speaker 2: my own thoughts or I'll censor my what I actually think,
Speaker 2: and I will say and do the things that I
Speaker 2: think you will want to see from me, and uh,
Speaker 2: it never no, it's it's uh in this. I mean.
Speaker 2: The sad thing is like that is I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people don't realize, like a lot of people
Speaker 2: just think that that's what dating is, what a relationship is,
Speaker 2: what friendship is, and it's it's not. So that's how
Speaker 2: I I mean to be fair. I wanted to when
Speaker 2: I was writing my book, I like I kind of
Speaker 2: distilled what everything I felt about attraction down to this concept.
Speaker 2: But I didn't know of a I didn't know of
Speaker 2: a label for it, so I kind of just anented one.
Speaker 2: And neediness just struck me as like a very logical
Speaker 2: and obvious way to describe it.
Speaker 1: There's something very human here that you're hitting on. It's
Speaker 1: not just like women are tuned to neediness. There seems
Speaker 1: to be a general principle here. The more need you
Speaker 1: are about something in general, the more you tend to
Speaker 1: push people away. It's a downward spiral in ala.
Speaker 2: It's repulsive in all social contexts. So well, yeah, so
Speaker 2: like imagine, I mean you just I imagine as a guy,
Speaker 2: like you go to a friend's house to watch a
Speaker 2: football game, and there's a guy there who's like sitting
Speaker 2: too close to you, who's like smiling, asking you all
Speaker 2: these weird questions, you know, laughing at all, like way
Speaker 2: too hard at all your jokes. Like your immediate instinct
Speaker 2: is going to be to get away from that person,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So it's it's I don't want to laugh at you now, no.
Speaker 2: But it's it's like it's just a commonality of human
Speaker 2: of just human interaction. But I think we don't. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of subtlety to it like that, you know,
Speaker 2: what I just describe is like a very overt and
Speaker 2: obvious example of it, but it happens on a lot
Speaker 2: of subtle levels as well. And I think, particularly with dating,
Speaker 2: those those subtleties get.
Speaker 1: Amplified quite a bit, definitely. And you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about here is they have attraction
Speaker 1: in trying to and a lot of it, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: is overcoming fear of rejection.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of self perceived nice guys
Speaker 1: who are terrified of rejection. They would rather not talk
Speaker 1: to a woman. Ever, if that means that they may
Speaker 1: be rejected, how can give any tips on how to
Speaker 1: kind of overcome that fear. Is it just like getting
Speaker 1: out there and doing it over and over?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's I think it's. I mean, rejection is
Speaker 2: just a fact of life. So the sooner you can
Speaker 2: get comfortable with it, the better.
Speaker 1: You've been rejected in the past.
Speaker 2: Dude, thousands of times, I mean, I don't know if
Speaker 2: it's actually you're like, maybe not thousands, but like it's
Speaker 2: just wow, okay, an insane amount. You even slapped Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: uh it's it's the act of trying to protect yourself
Speaker 2: from rejection. Yeah, is what makes you unattractive. So when
Speaker 2: you cater your thoughts and feelings to prevent rejection from
Speaker 2: another person, you make yourself less attractive and interesting to
Speaker 2: that person. And so one of the concepts I talked
Speaker 2: about in the book is that attraction is is ultimately
Speaker 2: it's polarizing. Like the things that are gonna make you
Speaker 2: most attractive to some people are also going to get
Speaker 2: you rejected most often by other people. So you can't
Speaker 2: you can't play the middle ground. Like if you like
Speaker 2: to maximize your dating experience, you have to basically go
Speaker 2: all in on the things that are going to make
Speaker 2: you attractive to the partners that you desire and or
Speaker 2: that are gonna make you happy. And then except that
Speaker 2: there's gonna be a certain amount of rejection that's just
Speaker 2: gonna naturally come as a collateral damage in that m Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's one thing to cognitively you know, but there's
Speaker 1: another thing, you know, to actually get through the experience,
Speaker 1: you know, because not pleasant experience, but a lot of
Speaker 1: it seems like there's different kinds of classes of nice guys.
Speaker 1: There's the nice there's like the entitled nice guy, the
Speaker 1: nice I'm just making up names labels on the spot,
Speaker 1: but there's the type of nice. They're like, I'm such
Speaker 1: a nice guy, and I don't understand why I'm not
Speaker 1: getting laid all the time. I should be I should
Speaker 1: be getting laid all the time because I'm such a
Speaker 1: nice guy. Well that's the entitled nice guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there's like the nerdy nice guy. I think
Speaker 1: there's the well intentioned nice guy who is is just
Speaker 1: generally baffled and confused. Why it seems like they're always
Speaker 1: in the friend zone. I know some people like this.
Speaker 1: They're feeling they're always in the friend zone and the
Speaker 1: friend is always going after the seeming asshole, you know,
Speaker 1: and they're like, hello, what about They're like, why can't
Speaker 1: I find a nice guy? And then guy's like hello, Right,
Speaker 1: So I think that's you know, that maybe a different
Speaker 1: class or nice guy. Something it seems important to recognize
Speaker 1: here is you know, we're not just attracted as humans.
Speaker 1: There's like a human issue. It's not just about women.
Speaker 1: None of us are just attracted to a nice person, right, Like,
Speaker 1: even from the male perspective, if you think about the
Speaker 1: women you're attract to, it's not just because they're nice.
Speaker 2: It's like the most baseline, lowest bar that you can
Speaker 2: you can clear, it's just being a nice person. So
Speaker 2: there needs to be there needs to be something else
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's important too for for our well
Speaker 1: meaning nice guys who are listening this episode will want
Speaker 1: them to think about this.
Speaker 2: And by the way, you know, the entitled nice guy, like,
Speaker 2: that's that's the harsh truth for that guy, is that
Speaker 2: it's it's it's like, dude, being nice doesn't earn you
Speaker 2: an award, Like you're gonna You're not gonna get a
Speaker 2: medal because you were like polite to somebody, Like that's
Speaker 2: just called being a decent human being, right, Like it's
Speaker 2: being like being a nice person isn't if the purpose
Speaker 2: is to get you things, then you're not actually a
Speaker 2: nice person. You're you're kind of a piece of shit.
Speaker 2: And to the nerdy nice guy, I think the nerding
Speaker 2: nice guy, it's mostly just a you know, being a
Speaker 2: little bit out of touch with their own intentions and
Speaker 2: being you know, not not developed, like they haven't learned
Speaker 2: how to like speak up and state what they want
Speaker 2: clearly and communicate what they want clearly. And then I
Speaker 2: think there's there's kind of a third class a nice guy,
Speaker 2: which is just it's just kind of clueless, like just
Speaker 2: doesn't it has no experience, has never been on a day,
Speaker 2: you know, like has never actually just like, you know,
Speaker 2: tried to get out there at all.
Speaker 1: So experience sounds like it's so important and you went
Speaker 1: through a lot of experience. Yeah, you know, hopefully we
Speaker 1: got recorded earlier. Where are we talked about your background?
Speaker 1: I think that was when in the first four minutes.
Speaker 2: So I my previous career. I was a dating coach
Speaker 2: for about five years. I worked with hundreds of men,
Speaker 2: both one on one and seminars. Took guys out the
Speaker 2: bars and coffee.
Speaker 1: He did that, he went out in the scene.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1: Wow, you did all that. Okay, did you do the
Speaker 1: earpiece thing where you talk to them as they do
Speaker 1: that sometimes in these pickup trainings?
Speaker 2: Now, I was too broke to do that back then. No.
Speaker 2: I would just take guys to bars and talk to
Speaker 2: girls with them and give them feedback and you know,
Speaker 2: help them out, take them to the mall, help them
Speaker 2: buy a decent shirt, you know, basic stuff.
Speaker 1: And you've seen if you've seen some real big transformations.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the really cool things is is every once
Speaker 2: in a while I'll run into an old client and
Speaker 2: you know, like they'll come to an event or something
Speaker 2: I've had. I've had a couple of guys like bring
Speaker 2: their wives to events. So yeah, and just be like,
Speaker 2: you know, that's kind of beautiful. Yeah, it's really cool
Speaker 2: to know that you played some part in that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's really cool.
Speaker 1: That is that's that is really cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: See you say things like ask yourself this, why would
Speaker 1: you want to be intimate with someone who doesn't appreciate you?
Speaker 1: Why would you ever settle for such a person because
Speaker 1: she's hot, Come on, have a little more self respect,
Speaker 1: have some higher standards. Yeah, that causes a consciousness shift
Speaker 1: and a lot of nice guys I think from oh
Speaker 1: I got to perform and impress them to oh I
Speaker 1: wonder if they're going to impress me. Now that's a
Speaker 1: real consciousness shift, and that seems like a game changing
Speaker 1: kind of mental shift in approaching the situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think men who are needy they don't
Speaker 2: consider that like it. This is like you get on
Speaker 2: my soapbox for a second.
Speaker 1: I love Mark on a soapbox.
Speaker 2: I love it, so you know, obviously, like it's there's
Speaker 2: a lot that is said about objectifying women, how it's
Speaker 2: bad for women, which is true, right, you shouldn't objectify women.
Speaker 2: What doesn't get said is that objectifying women is also
Speaker 2: bad for men, because if you are if you are
Speaker 2: basing like your your romantic relationship is such a large
Speaker 2: part of your life and your your attention, your your
Speaker 2: emotional energy, your mental energy, and if you are basically
Speaker 2: saying that none of that matters as long as she's hot,
Speaker 2: Like it's it's like she could be a bitch, you
Speaker 2: could be miserable with her, you could not trust her,
Speaker 2: you could not feel respected by her. But if she's hot,
Speaker 2: you'll tolerate all that shit, you know, just because you
Speaker 2: think she's hot. Right, So it's like you are a
Speaker 2: man is degrading himself. Yeah, in the process as well.
Speaker 1: And I don't think she'll respect you or she'll.
Speaker 2: Just take advantage of you. I mean, well, it depends
Speaker 2: if she's If she has integrity, she won't respect you,
Speaker 2: and then she won't date you. And if she doesn't
Speaker 2: have integrity, she'll just take advantage of you.
Speaker 1: I really went down a deep rabbit hole in studying
Speaker 1: your work and the work of pickup artists and the
Speaker 1: seduction committee whatever they fuck they call themselves these days,
Speaker 1: it just seems like there's a certain factor. Now, I
Speaker 1: did a factor in house something of the kinds of
Speaker 1: themes that they're obsessed with. So one of them is
Speaker 1: coming across as creepy. You know, fear rejection is one
Speaker 1: of them. But just coming across as creepy is a
Speaker 1: major fear of a lot of these guys that get
Speaker 1: these trainings. But in my perception, a lot of them
Speaker 1: will creepy when they're doing their pigafaris then to make
Speaker 1: that looks creepy, but it's not.
Speaker 2: I So I I thought a lot about what creepiness is.
Speaker 2: What is creepiness? So creepiness is I mean some of
Speaker 2: there is a physical attraction element of it, Like physically
Speaker 2: attractive guys can definitely get away with more creepy behavior.
Speaker 2: The thing that makes creepiness creepy is that it is
Speaker 2: it is it's incongruent behavior, right, So it's it's essentially
Speaker 2: it's when you are It's when you are saying one
Speaker 2: thing but being another way. Like it's it's like a
Speaker 2: guy who's like telling you how much money he has
Speaker 2: when he's like, you know, he's dressed in in like
Speaker 2: you know, hobo clothes. Like it's there's like an incongruence
Speaker 2: in somewhere in their identity, Like what they're portraying is
Speaker 2: not lining up in some way or another. And I
Speaker 2: think creepiness it can happen. I think it's a signal.
Speaker 2: Like I think the reason it evolved is is that
Speaker 2: it's a signal for women of manipulation and untrustworthiness. And
Speaker 2: I think to your point, I think the reason kind
Speaker 2: of pick up artist tactics come across as creepy is
Speaker 2: because they are fundamentally manipulative and dishonest, and so they
Speaker 2: trigger the creepiness red flag and a lot of women
Speaker 2: and like and then the But I think it's also
Speaker 2: it can happen with men who are also unaware of
Speaker 2: their own intentions and desires and impulses who they will
Speaker 2: in their head, they're being honest when they express something. Uh,
Speaker 2: but the woman can see like something's off here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like he says this thing, but he seems this other way.
Speaker 1: See. But that's a profound insight because I think a
Speaker 1: lot of men are kind of a conditioned or kind
Speaker 1: of think the way the world works is they will
Speaker 1: be more successful if they hide their intentions, right, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: can't show that I'm sexually interested kind of like Mike
Speaker 1: brit But that in some ways that actually makes you
Speaker 1: more creepy.
Speaker 2: Well no, but it's it's it's that's there's an interesting
Speaker 2: paradox there. It's that's ultimately why I landed on just
Speaker 2: the prescription of honesty, because honesty, even if you get rejected,
Speaker 2: even if you fail, even if you don't get the
Speaker 2: girl of your dreams, you're not gonna like, You're not
Speaker 2: gonna be creepy, You're not gonna be manipulative. You're still
Speaker 2: gonna have integrity and you're you're still gonna you'll be
Speaker 2: able to approach women and try to, you know, approach
Speaker 2: your dating life in a way that you can feel
Speaker 2: proud of and that you can feel you can maintain
Speaker 2: your self respect.
Speaker 1: I get it. I mean I feel like I see you,
Speaker 1: I see you and what you're you know, underneath a
Speaker 1: lot of this comes down to just basic confidence, self respect,
Speaker 1: self worth, not coming at it from a sense of neediness,
Speaker 1: not from a sense of vulnerable narcissism, which is a
Speaker 1: topic that I study, you know, where like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: I mean I think the need a lot of neediness
Speaker 1: comes from vulnerable narcissism. Well, let it out. All that sounds,
Speaker 1: but a lot of it does seem to come from
Speaker 1: that vulnerable narcissism. Not you know, there is grandiose narcissism, yep,
Speaker 1: you know, but I also think you see a lot
Speaker 1: in the in the pickup ours community. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a vulnerable kind of narcis We just.
Speaker 2: Talks about this before, how pickup is essentially just grandiose
Speaker 2: narcissist teaching, teaching vulnerable narcissists how to be grandiose narcissist,
Speaker 2: and that's the supply and demands. And see, grandiose narcissists
Speaker 2: will actually get laid by women who are vulnerable narcissists.
Speaker 1: So like it's, oh, that's super interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's there is an attraction there that happens across
Speaker 2: the narcissism.
Speaker 1: Spectrum, and vulnerable narsism and women is highly correlated with
Speaker 1: worderline personality disorder. But maybe we don't want to go there,
Speaker 1: but there's there's something there.
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised and and that's why when you also
Speaker 2: in these communities, the guys who do get laid a
Speaker 2: bunch and data tunnel women like they have the worst
Speaker 2: fucking horror stories about Like this is like ultimately, and
Speaker 2: I think I've talked about this in models. It's like
Speaker 2: you ultimately, you ultimately attract what you are.
Speaker 1: And such a good insight and it's yes.
Speaker 2: So if you are narcissistic, selfish, manipulative, untrustworthy, that's the
Speaker 2: woman you're gonna end up with. And you can kind
Speaker 2: of fake your way to appearing attractive in the short term.
Speaker 2: And guess what, You're gonna end up with women who
Speaker 2: fake their way to being attractive in the short term.
Speaker 2: So it's like there's a parallelism that that happens.
Speaker 1: Well, have you seen the hot matrix, the hot crazy matrix?
Speaker 1: You don't think that's a thing.
Speaker 2: You don't think that's sure, that's a perfect example of
Speaker 2: a story that no, no, no, I think that's a
Speaker 2: perfect example of grandiose narcissism attracts grandiose narcissism, or narcissism
Speaker 2: attracts narcissism, manipulation attracts manipulation. Really, yeah, you.
Speaker 1: Think it's a good example of that. That explains why.
Speaker 2: Because it's the hot crazy woman, Like this gets in
Speaker 2: the whole tangent of like what's hot, And you're right,
Speaker 2: that's a good point too, right, like it's if your
Speaker 2: standard of hot is like the porn star, you know,
Speaker 2: fake eyelashes, fake boobs, that's my standard, fake as fake everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the fake ass. I like the fake ass. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Guess what like the women that the women that look
Speaker 2: like that. No, you're right, Yeah, they look like that
Speaker 2: for a reason.
Speaker 1: No, you're right. In reality, before people get the wrong
Speaker 1: idea about me, I'm usually the one. I'm usually the
Speaker 1: one who's falling in love with the girl. They're almost like, uh,
Speaker 1: what do you why hurt? You know, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: she's so quirky and cute, you know, like I love
Speaker 1: the nerdy, the nerdy, you know, glad, the glasses and freckles,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of my type. So you know, you say,
Speaker 1: the exact words you say are far less important than
Speaker 1: your intentions and level of anxiety. So this is a
Speaker 1: formula I really want to nerd out with you today.
Speaker 1: That is a great formula. Yeah, you're saying that the
Speaker 1: anxiety part, I think is associated correlated with the neediness
Speaker 1: part of the equation. Sure, but then what you know,
Speaker 1: the intentionality in being more important than the words. If
Speaker 1: you could unpack that for me, because you have this
Speaker 1: whole story where you went up to women and your
Speaker 1: friend went up to can I pe in your butt? Now?
Speaker 1: Doesn't that illustrate this point you're trying to make.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the p and your butt story?
Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, I mean it's it's this is one thing that
Speaker 2: I just learned going out and speaking the hundreds and
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of women, is that ultimately, like the line,
Speaker 2: the line, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it's it's
Speaker 2: who you are, and it's the attitude that you show
Speaker 2: up with. I would also in the context it contexts, absolutely,
Speaker 2: you have to be socially aware, but it's much more
Speaker 2: about your identity, who you are, who you are, who
Speaker 2: you present yourself as. And then and then the attitude
Speaker 2: that behind it, Like the words themselves are like like
Speaker 2: you can give the best line in the world to
Speaker 2: the neediest dude and he's still gonna get rejected left, right,
Speaker 2: and center. So it's a great point, you know, back
Speaker 2: to the intention thing, it's it's it's the intention, it's
Speaker 2: the why you said. It's not what you say, it's
Speaker 2: why you said it, you know, And and it's if
Speaker 2: you're you can say anything and if you're looking for
Speaker 2: a reaction, it's gonna come across as needy. It's potentially
Speaker 2: gonna come across as creepy. If you say something and
Speaker 2: you're just like fuck it, having a good time, having
Speaker 2: a laugh, expressing your thoughts, you know, if there's an
Speaker 2: unconditionality to it, And by that what I mean is
Speaker 2: that you're not looking for a reaction, then it's it's
Speaker 2: either she's gonna pick up what you're putting down and
Speaker 2: she's gonna love it, or she's gonna say no, thank
Speaker 2: you and move on, and then you know she's doing
Speaker 2: you a favor because she's not she's not vibing with you,
Speaker 2: or throw a drink in your face. I mean, if
Speaker 2: you're an asshole, yeah, she might do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well even if you're a non asshole. Sometimes wires
Speaker 1: get crossed, you know. Sometimes you can have sometimes you
Speaker 1: can have the best in intentions and you can't control
Speaker 1: someone else's perception of it, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: Should have happened?
Speaker 1: Should happen? Yeah, you actually say allow yourself to be creepy.
Speaker 1: So you know, like you say, like things happen, things happen.
Speaker 2: You have to understand that like you're never going to
Speaker 2: communicate yourself perfectly all the time, so you.
Speaker 1: Know, you can have that. That's the only point I
Speaker 1: wanted to make there is you can have the best
Speaker 1: of intentions and still be horribly rejected, and to be
Speaker 1: able to not take that personally also to not be
Speaker 1: mad at the person, you know, like, you know, like
Speaker 1: in some sort of entitled sort of way. You know, Hey,
Speaker 1: there's something I did want to bring up, and that's
Speaker 1: this idea of like can you be too cool for school?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: A lot of this seems to make a lot of
Speaker 1: sense in the early stages of relationship, but like, you know,
Speaker 1: like there are times in a relationship where you really
Speaker 1: are needy on the you know, you're human, right, and
Speaker 1: and honesty is being needy, and you know, let's say
Speaker 1: you're you get sick and you need your partner to
Speaker 1: take care of you for a certain part. Or let's
Speaker 1: say you're starting to notice and in balance in liking
Speaker 1: and you're starting to feel within yourself a little bit
Speaker 1: neatier because you're invested in the relationship, you know, so
Speaker 1: I'm trying to reconcile that, you know, Like, so there's
Speaker 1: a lot of advice more about like attracting someone who's
Speaker 1: new than like being in a relationship over many years.
Speaker 2: It is primarily about attraction, although I would say I
Speaker 2: do think neediness is important as a principle throughout a relationships. Again,
Speaker 2: as you point it out, like it should happens in life,
Speaker 2: there are moments of weakness, you know, moments of insecurity,
Speaker 2: and I think in a long term relationship there's a
Speaker 2: lot of leeway to like support each other. But I don't.
Speaker 2: I think if there's ever needingness for an extended period
Speaker 2: of time, that results in kind of an imbalance within
Speaker 2: the relationship. So I do think it's still holds as
Speaker 2: a guiding principle within a long term relationship, with the
Speaker 2: understanding that they are going to be like short term
Speaker 2: moments here and there, that one person or the other
Speaker 2: is going to be in a very vulnerable position.
Speaker 1: It seems like demographics are super important, and you see
Speaker 1: a lot of guys with midlife crisis you know, going on,
Speaker 1: and then they're only going for like that, you know,
Speaker 1: the the hot you know, twenties, you know, in twenties
Speaker 1: in there, like why why AREM I getting rejected? You know?
Speaker 1: It seems like knowing your target audience and what's going
Speaker 1: to be a real authentic fit seems to be really
Speaker 1: important part of this story, right for sure.
Speaker 2: It's it's I think what I think men tend to
Speaker 2: the men live in one or two one of two
Speaker 2: different fantasy worlds when it comes to what I would
Speaker 2: call like identity or lifestyle. The first fantasy world is
Speaker 2: that none of it should matter. That if you are
Speaker 2: like charming enough and charismatic enough and have all the
Speaker 2: right lines and jokes, that you should be able to
Speaker 2: hook up with any girl anywhere, under any circumstance whatever, like,
Speaker 2: which is just fucking fantasy world that's not realistic. The
Speaker 2: second fantasy that men have is that that lifestyle and identity,
Speaker 2: you know, it basically all just boils down like money
Speaker 2: and and maybe how tall you are, which is also bullshit,
Speaker 2: Like those things matter, but they're they're a relatively small.
Speaker 1: How much mon are we talking, I mean, just.
Speaker 2: Money in general, Like it's it, but it's it's a
Speaker 2: relatively small amount of the pie. Uh, And it's I mean, ultimately,
Speaker 2: what matters is the life that you've built for yourself.
Speaker 2: You know, your lifestyle, lifestyle, your occupation, your interests, your
Speaker 2: friend group, what you like to do on the weekends,
Speaker 2: your relationship with your family, like the city you live in,
Speaker 2: Like all these things are Like are your age, All
Speaker 2: these things are big factors. You're religious or ethnic background,
Speaker 2: Like all these things are factors. And I think it's
Speaker 2: important that not just men, everybody is realistic about what
Speaker 2: are the demographics that I'm going to naturally appeal to,
Speaker 2: and what are the demographics that I'm naturally not gonna
Speaker 2: appeal to.
Speaker 1: And be honest with yourself.
Speaker 2: Be honest with yourself, and then just play within those demographics.
Speaker 2: Like don't and I you know, back when I coached,
Speaker 2: I used to run into this occasionally. Get the forty
Speaker 2: five year old divorce guy midlife crisis, you know, wants
Speaker 2: to start going out to nightclubs and talking to college girls,
Speaker 2: and like wants me to give him the line that's
Speaker 2: gonna get him the hook up of the college girl.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm sorry, dude, but there's there's not a line.
Speaker 2: Like there's just no line. Like you're in the wrong place.
Speaker 2: And besides, it's like, if there is a girl here
Speaker 2: who's willing to hook up with a guy twice her age,
Speaker 2: you probably don't need a line for her, like it's
Speaker 2: she's just that's her thing. It's her thing, or she's
Speaker 2: there for you know, whatever. The car the benefits, so
Speaker 2: it's it's I think this is why you know the
Speaker 2: subtitle of my book is Attracted Women through Honesty. The
Speaker 2: honesty is not just about the honesty with the women,
Speaker 2: it's the honesty with yourself. Love that, because if you
Speaker 2: lie to yourself, the repercussions of that are ultimately unattractive.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love that. Radical drop them like they're radical.
Speaker 1: I'm all about radical self honesty. I think this is
Speaker 1: what we're friends. We were both pretty radically self honest
Speaker 1: about each other. And have the ideas of your book
Speaker 1: changed at all since you've written it in light of
Speaker 1: the me too sort of era, because there are some
Speaker 1: things to say in there that are a little like
Speaker 1: me too questionable, such as you have a thing you say,
Speaker 1: keep expressing your interest and keep going for it, being
Speaker 1: a sort of dominant even say dominance is attractive to
Speaker 1: women up until the point they say no, keep going
Speaker 1: for it. Now you say that in the book. Has
Speaker 1: you're thinking about that changed in light of the last
Speaker 1: five six years of this eventual consciousness changed.
Speaker 2: No, I haven't the last time. So I did a
Speaker 2: revision of the book in twenty sixteen. Oh, that's the
Speaker 2: last time I did a revision of it, and I
Speaker 2: think the me too stuff was just starting around then.
Speaker 2: But I remember that revision. I kind of went through
Speaker 2: with that in mind. You know, there's probably like I
Speaker 2: originally wrote the book when I was twenty nine, no,
Speaker 2: twenty seven, and then that revision I was thirty two.
Speaker 2: So it's like, I'm sure there's probably a more delicate
Speaker 2: and nuanced way to put there's some passages there. I'm
Speaker 2: sure there's more delicate and nuanced ways to put it.
Speaker 2: But I think ultimately I stand by the principle, which
Speaker 2: is you should express what you want. You should you know,
Speaker 2: if she doesn't say no, feel free to continue expressing.
Speaker 2: I just think there's a certain level as long as
Speaker 2: there's respect there, as long as you're not being pushy
Speaker 2: or you know, intimidating her. I think there's a certain maybe,
Speaker 2: like if I did go back and revise it, I
Speaker 2: would probably revise like an awareness around her emotional state,
Speaker 2: because I think a lot of women they they don't
Speaker 2: feel free to say no or they are too insecure
Speaker 2: to say no. And so I think there's like it's
Speaker 2: important to as a man to try to be aware
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: Well, the women are complex, and then throughout the millennia
Speaker 1: have been trying to understand. There's some famous quotes like
Speaker 1: from like famous Nobel Prize winners like I understand the universe,
Speaker 1: but women forget about it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So you do point out some of the complexities of
Speaker 1: women in your book. You point out how it might
Speaker 1: not seem rational, but a lot of women you can
Speaker 1: say something that gets them so mad at you. Polarization,
Speaker 1: you say, is a good thing. And so you say, well, look,
Speaker 1: don't count yourself out. If you've made a woman mad
Speaker 1: at you, you know, like she could actually come back,
Speaker 1: and you know it could it could work out. So
Speaker 1: I'm trying to reconcile that within this sort of me
Speaker 1: too era. But but there's something really interesting that you're
Speaker 1: pointing on there, you know, point.
Speaker 2: Depens what she's mad about. I mean, it's true. My
Speaker 2: response to that would be, you know, the opposite of
Speaker 2: attraction is not anger, the opposite of attraction is indifference.
Speaker 1: Right, So why is polarizing women such a positive thing
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 2: You know polarization. It's like, it's kind of like if
Speaker 2: you are going to if you make the decision to
Speaker 2: be honest about your thoughts and feelings, you have to
Speaker 2: understand that sometimes people aren't gonna like your thoughts and feelings.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they're going to be upset by them. Sometimes they're
Speaker 2: going to disagree with you. Sometimes they're gonna want to
Speaker 2: argue with you. And I think it's important to understand
Speaker 2: that that's not necessarily a bad thing. You know, the
Speaker 2: same way you argue with family members, or you get
Speaker 2: upset with your dad, or you know, it's it's part
Speaker 2: of a natural part of intimacy is feeling heightened emotion,
Speaker 2: both positive and negative. So I think as long as
Speaker 2: the reason she's mad isn't because you're a piece of
Speaker 2: shit who like lied to her or did something unethical,
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily a bad thing. I'll give you a
Speaker 2: really simple I'll give you a really simple, kind of
Speaker 2: practical example of this that I think probably illustrates why
Speaker 2: polarization it's not only natural in a healthy relationship, but
Speaker 2: it's also like good. So my wife, this started when
Speaker 2: we were dating. I you know, like many women, she
Speaker 2: would spend a lot of time getting ready to go
Speaker 2: out on a date night or whatever, and she try
Speaker 2: on some new outfit and then she'd come out and
Speaker 2: she'd be like, how do I look? And if she
Speaker 2: didn't look good, I would say I don't think you
Speaker 2: look good? And she said that to you? What did
Speaker 2: she say?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: She would get ready to go on a date and
Speaker 2: she put on her whole outfit and everything. Yeah, and uh,
Speaker 2: and then she come out like most women tend to do,
Speaker 2: and they say how do I look?
Speaker 1: Oh, you have to lie, yeah, exactly, you have to experience.
Speaker 2: Men would just like say you look beautiful, Like, don't
Speaker 2: even think about it. I make a practice of telling
Speaker 2: her if I don't think she looks good, I tell
Speaker 2: her I don't. Don't you know, I like, I don't
Speaker 2: like that dress. I don't think it looks good. The
Speaker 2: first year or so that we were together, she would
Speaker 2: get so fucking pissed off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, women don't like that.
Speaker 2: No, she really doesn't like that. And so but I
Speaker 2: was like, you asked me how you look, and this
Speaker 2: is what I'm not going to lie to you, right,
Speaker 2: So she would get upset. We'd have a little the
Speaker 2: first year or so we'd have like little arguments and
Speaker 2: stuff about it. But a funny thing started happening after
Speaker 2: a while, which is if she asked me a question,
Speaker 2: she says, how does this look? Or how do I
Speaker 2: look tonight? How does this outfit look? And I say,
Speaker 2: you look fucking spectacular? Now that means something like because
Speaker 2: now she knows I'm being honest. She knows, and I'm
Speaker 2: willing to say the other thing. So when I say
Speaker 2: the good thing, she's like super super happy. And another
Speaker 2: funny thing happened too after a while, and I would
Speaker 2: argue this is healthy as well. Is after another couple
Speaker 2: of years, we reached a point where you know, she'd
Speaker 2: come out of the closet or or the bathroom or
Speaker 2: whatever and she'd be like, how do I look? And
Speaker 2: I'd say, I'll think I don't like the outfit, don't
Speaker 2: look great, and she'd be like, well, I don't care,
Speaker 2: I like it. And then we got exactly that's.
Speaker 1: Her prioritizing her own exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: So it's it's I think that that polarization of response
Speaker 2: is actually healthy. It's because it also enables the person
Speaker 2: you're with to stop being needy themselves.
Speaker 1: As well, right, and you're encouraging authentic, honest conversations. You know,
Speaker 1: if I say something that you disagree with and you're like, Scott,
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that, you know, like you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to fall to pieces, you know, like
Speaker 1: that's good, a good conversation. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: around someone who is who says everything I say is
Speaker 1: brilliant or do I so you say, I strongly believe
Speaker 1: in the idea of fuck, yes or no. This shows
Speaker 1: the early days of Mark Manson, by the way, and
Speaker 1: his the word fuck. But yeah, I really think that's
Speaker 1: my philosophy too, right, Like if someone's not interested, like
Speaker 1: move on, you know, Like I think a lot of
Speaker 1: nice guys get stuck, right. I think there was a
Speaker 1: term for that in the pickupart of Stays, where you
Speaker 1: get stuck with on one person. I think there was
Speaker 1: a term for they had for it. I'm forgetting what
Speaker 1: it is right now, the average frustrated chump pick or something.
Speaker 1: That is what they they were so mean referring to
Speaker 1: a nice guy that average frustrated chump, you know, get
Speaker 1: stuck on one person. But I think there's something really
Speaker 1: important about that, right is like if is no one
Speaker 1: went to move on and being graceful about that.
Speaker 2: Well, again, think about it if you if a woman
Speaker 2: is not interested yet you keep waiting around for someone
Speaker 2: who's not interested, spending valuable time of your own life
Speaker 2: waiting and hoping, Like, what does that say about your
Speaker 2: view of yourself? Like, it doesn't. It suggests that you
Speaker 2: don't think very highly of yourself, that you don't value
Speaker 2: your own time very highly. You could be using that
Speaker 2: time to go out and meet other women. So it's yeah,
Speaker 2: it's ultimately again kind of with the objectification thing, it
Speaker 2: comes back to it's a self respect issue.
Speaker 1: So the friend zone is is I've I've been so
Speaker 1: fascinating understanding that I think that a lot of guys,
Speaker 1: not of nice guys, you know, they this relates to
Speaker 1: what you're just saying, they think that they stay in
Speaker 1: there long enough someday the woman's going to just magically
Speaker 1: be like, oh you know what, I you know what.
Speaker 1: I It was you all along that I loved. But
Speaker 1: I think there's some nuance there because I think that
Speaker 1: there is this terrible idea that every that no woman
Speaker 1: can just be a friend that like, you know, the
Speaker 1: guys and girls can't be friends, you know that every
Speaker 1: woman that you're friends with, if you're not sleeping with them,
Speaker 1: then you're in the friend zone. And I abhor that idea,
Speaker 1: you know, because I have a lot of female friends
Speaker 1: that I think it's I have a wonderful, waterful friendship
Speaker 1: and it's very meaningful, and I generally don't want to
Speaker 1: sleep with them, you know.
Speaker 2: It came. I mean, that's just the objectification again, It's
Speaker 2: just that's what it is. It's because it's but.
Speaker 1: I see that a lot in the in the Pickup
Speaker 1: Ours Commune. I remember back in the day and in
Speaker 1: my twenties when the game came out and I tried
Speaker 1: my hand at all that stuff, it felt all of
Speaker 1: it felt very uncomfortable to me. And one thing was
Speaker 1: like I remember I would go out, you know in
Speaker 1: the scene they called the whatever their term for the
Speaker 1: real world. They're like, we're now going to the real world,
Speaker 1: and and and the guys would be like yelling at
Speaker 1: me to be like dude, why are you talking to her?
Speaker 1: And not like you know, escalating it, you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, actually this goes just cool. Like I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to sleep, believe it. Or not I'm not
Speaker 1: talking to a girl that I'm not trying to sleep.
Speaker 1: They couldn't understand that concept. Yeah, so I don't know
Speaker 1: what my point is, but but I guess my point
Speaker 1: is that is that, like, let's let's define what it
Speaker 1: means to be in the friend zone, because I don't
Speaker 1: think you're automatically in the friend zone if you have
Speaker 1: a really cool friendship.
Speaker 2: Friend zone is when you are attracted to a woman
Speaker 2: and you want to have a mantic relationship with her,
Speaker 2: but she just sees you as a friend yes, and
Speaker 2: doesn't want to bring you out of the friend zone.
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of guys can really resonate
Speaker 1: with being in the friend zone and being gutted, gut
Speaker 1: it over, you know, when they they seem in their perception,
Speaker 1: they seem to see the girl constant dating jerks, you know,
Speaker 1: for instance. You know, but is there any way out
Speaker 1: of the friend zone? What are your thoughts on the
Speaker 1: friend zone?
Speaker 2: I don't think about the friend zone a whole lot, Like.
Speaker 1: Well, you're married, so I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that.
Speaker 2: I just like, I don't. To me, it was always
Speaker 2: really simple of like, look, you shouldn't wait around for
Speaker 2: somebody who doesn't want to be with you, like period.
Speaker 2: Just if she doesn't want to be with you, don't
Speaker 2: wait around. Get on with your life if you want.
Speaker 2: If you want to stay friends with her, that's fine,
Speaker 2: be friends with her, but don't be friends with her
Speaker 2: because you're waiting that she'll, like one day, hopefully change
Speaker 2: her mind, you know. So it's like that, I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's like a lot of brew haha over friend zone
Speaker 2: stuff that I never I always have a ton of
Speaker 2: female friends, and yeah, sure some of them I like
Speaker 2: totally wanted to hook up with. Some of them I didn't.
Speaker 2: Some of them I just really liked hanging out with.
Speaker 2: So it's like, I don't know whatever women are. People
Speaker 2: like I do find it really discouraging and disconcerting when
Speaker 2: when men A don't have female friends and B don't
Speaker 2: think you can have female friends.
Speaker 1: That it bothers me. It's a pet people of mine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just it's you were like, I find it
Speaker 2: funny too, because then I'm like, well, no, wonder you're
Speaker 2: so fucking confused about women because you never spend any
Speaker 2: time around Yeah, yeah, that's true. You know, it's like,
Speaker 2: how do you think you're gonna like relate to women
Speaker 2: if you don't spend time with them.
Speaker 1: That's so true. You do argue there's three types of women.
Speaker 2: It's like that there's three types. There's uh interest, I
Speaker 2: think it's interested, uninterested, in neutral, and if she's uninterested.
Speaker 2: So if she's neutral and like, a neutral woman is
Speaker 2: just somebody who, like, you don't know if she's attracted
Speaker 2: to you or not.
Speaker 1: She might not even know if she's attracted you or right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you should, uh you know, you should pursue her
Speaker 2: until you find out, and then once you find out
Speaker 2: she goes into interested or uninterested categories. If she's an
Speaker 2: uninterested you should stop pursuing her full stop, let it go. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then if she's interested, great.
Speaker 1: So it's important. So it's important to understand this framework.
Speaker 2: It's important because I think a lot of guys waste
Speaker 2: a ton of time trying to make sure that every
Speaker 2: woman they need ends up being interested, and that is
Speaker 2: just backfires or they try to convert women from uninterested
Speaker 2: in the interested, and it's just like I think that
Speaker 2: framework was just to put it as simply as possible.
Speaker 2: If she's neutral, she like she should remain neutral as
Speaker 2: little as possible, Like, you should make your interests clear
Speaker 2: as soon as possible, and as soon as you make
Speaker 2: your interest clear, it should polarize her. And if she
Speaker 2: goes into the uninterested side, let it go. And if
Speaker 2: you want to be friends, you can be friends. But like,
Speaker 2: don't don't sit there and try to like game her
Speaker 2: and try to you know, get her all worked up
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's fair enough, but you also do really
Speaker 1: make a case for going for it and for I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's incompatible what you just said, but
Speaker 1: I think there is another side of it where you're like, no, like,
Speaker 1: sometimes they'll be more attracted to you if you show
Speaker 1: that you're attracted to them. You say, quote, the biggest
Speaker 1: aphrodisiac in the world is someone who likes you, genuinely
Speaker 1: likes you. A woman's desire is to be desired, but
Speaker 1: it has to be genuine desire. It can't be a
Speaker 1: i'll desire you as long as you boost my ego
Speaker 1: and impress my coworkers kind of desire.
Speaker 2: Ye.
Speaker 1: So I guess keeping that framework in mind is good
Speaker 1: on the one hand, but also if you have limited
Speaker 1: information on where they're at in terms of their interest
Speaker 1: in you. You know, let's encourage guys to go for it,
Speaker 1: you know, respectfully.
Speaker 2: And that's if if you don't know, if if you
Speaker 2: don't know if they're interested or not, if they're in
Speaker 2: that neutral category, then you yeah, you have to go
Speaker 2: for it until you find out. And then if you
Speaker 2: if they're uninterested, then you stop.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it almost it feels like it doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be said, but it doesn't have to It
Speaker 1: does have to be said. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, this is why we have.
Speaker 1: The me too movement. Yes, yes, So in the remaining
Speaker 1: time we have an interview, let's just, uh, let's offer
Speaker 1: some hope to uh, to nice guys who are really struggling,
Speaker 1: really struggling. Uh. And you really believe at the end
Speaker 1: of the day that anyone can be attractive. You actually
Speaker 1: make a distinction between good looking and being attractive, and
Speaker 1: you really have a lot of hope that that everyone
Speaker 1: can can increase their.
Speaker 2: Attractive everybody's attractive to somebody. If if you never meet
Speaker 2: a who's attracted to you, it's you're meeting the wrong women.
Speaker 2: So you can improve yourself to become attractive to more women,
Speaker 2: which is you should also do that. Everyone can do that, right,
Speaker 2: But if you're never meeting women who are attracted to
Speaker 2: then you are meeting the wrong women on some level.
Speaker 2: So it's it's everybody's attracted to somebody somewhere and if
Speaker 2: and if you if you're not finding them, then it's
Speaker 2: an issue of uh filtering. It's not an issue of like,
Speaker 2: oh women just like tall guys with money or like
Speaker 2: uh women, you know, like all the bullshit that you.
Speaker 1: Can sell, have this whole idea about that. But but
Speaker 1: but you do make a point. You can become genuinely
Speaker 1: generally more attractive. Yes, by doing certain things you talk
Speaker 1: about appearance. You can increase your fashion and fitness. There's
Speaker 1: something we all can improve no matter how your how
Speaker 1: many eyes you have or noses you have.
Speaker 2: It's pretty simple, Like it doesn't it's not very hard.
Speaker 2: And honestly, like men have it way easier the women
Speaker 2: on that front, Like it's it's crazy, like you just
Speaker 2: I don't know, like take a shower and like fucking
Speaker 2: comb your hair and put on a decent shirt and
Speaker 2: like you're halfway there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of guys don't realize that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how much they can up level themselves just by doing that.
Speaker 1: You say, women are attracted to a man they can respect,
Speaker 1: to a man they can trust. If you're constantly looking
Speaker 1: for approval for what to say and how to feel,
Speaker 1: how could anyone respect or trust you? And so I
Speaker 1: think a lot of this, you know, it just keeps
Speaker 1: coming back to that. You know, these are these are
Speaker 1: simple things that I think people can listen to TANGI
Speaker 1: will takeaways in their lives to to get to be
Speaker 1: with the kind of women they generally want to be with.
Speaker 1: But as you know, we're we're not teaching. We're not
Speaker 1: doing one of these things like have sex with any model.
Speaker 1: You know, that's not what we're here for.
Speaker 2: That's the follow up.
Speaker 1: But that's that's they work that we're writing together. Yeah no, uh,
Speaker 1: but uh, you know, when you call, I think we
Speaker 1: had an interview where we're joking, but I couldn't te
Speaker 1: if you were serious not When you said models, did
Speaker 1: you were you referring to statistical models like a model
Speaker 1: a way of thinking about it, or were you actually
Speaker 1: thinking about models?
Speaker 2: It is a it's a double entendre. So it's it's
Speaker 2: it's specifically what it is is, and I believe I
Speaker 2: talk about this in the introduction, is that there's no
Speaker 2: healthy in a postfeminist world. There's no healthy model of masculinity.
Speaker 2: That there's no for men who grew up in the
Speaker 2: Internet age, there's no clear and obvious role model. You know,
Speaker 2: if you look at our parents generation, you know, they
Speaker 2: grew up with like John Wayne and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the Jack Nicholson and all these people, like it was
Speaker 2: kind of obvious of like, Okay, that's that's what a
Speaker 2: man is, That's how I'm supposed to be. This is
Speaker 2: you know, what we do. Whereas growing up in say,
Speaker 2: starting in the nineties, it started to get a lot
Speaker 2: more ambiguous and unclear. And so the goal of the
Speaker 2: book was to just present like, here's a model of
Speaker 2: what being an attractive man is that is based on science,
Speaker 2: and it's also uh practical and useful. And then the
Speaker 2: double entendres.
Speaker 1: It's well, the nerd in me loves the double entendre.
Speaker 1: I love that you know your what's your own journey,
Speaker 1: you know, personally, just at a personal level, like being
Speaker 1: vulnerable for a second, as Mark Manson, like, you strike
Speaker 1: me as someone who earlier in your life you probably
Speaker 1: felt things very deeply. I actually get the sense, and
Speaker 1: I may be completely off base here, but I'm a
Speaker 1: been a psychologist for twenty five years. I get the
Speaker 1: sense that you are this like Big Teddy Bear who
Speaker 1: who early in your life you couldn't you couldn't stand
Speaker 1: the feeling of being rejected or whatever. But you've gone
Speaker 1: through such a journey like personally, like you've transformed, and
Speaker 1: you've gone through out of growth and maybe you even
Speaker 1: at some point overcompensated by being too cool, where like
Speaker 1: oh nothing affects me, you know, like uh, don't give
Speaker 1: a fuck about anything. You know, maybe you went through
Speaker 1: that phase at some point and now you're a much
Speaker 1: more integrated human. But just being your friend and kind
Speaker 1: of knowing you, this is this is what my intuition
Speaker 1: is telling me about the arc of your story. How
Speaker 1: much does that dove tell the reality what I just said?
Speaker 2: I you know, it's funny though, like like being a
Speaker 2: person who feels things deeply, like I never know, Like
Speaker 2: all I know is how I feel things, So I
Speaker 2: don't know if that's like for someone like don't there's
Speaker 2: no reference point, so I don't know, Like I I
Speaker 2: you know, I grew up in a very like kind
Speaker 2: of emotionally stifled family, you know, very my parents were
Speaker 2: like old school Middle America, you know, everything's fine, don't
Speaker 2: talk about it type of family. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: I in my early life I just buried things, which
Speaker 2: really really buried things, and was developed a number of
Speaker 2: like self destructive patterns and behaviors at a pretty young age.
Speaker 2: And then I was also like I was a classic
Speaker 2: entitled nice guy, like I was every girl I wanted
Speaker 2: the day who became friends with and then you know,
Speaker 2: and then I would feel like I got cheated out
Speaker 2: of something because she didn't want to sleep with me.
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, dude, you never said any it's
Speaker 2: been six months. You never fucking said anything, Like, so
Speaker 2: is she's supposed to just magically know that, like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, your perfect boyfriend has been here the whole time. No,
Speaker 2: it's it's on you to like say something. But you know,
Speaker 2: I was young and immature and I didn't understand that,
Speaker 2: and I think I did overcompensate. When I got to
Speaker 2: my twenties, I started I got really in the self help.
Speaker 2: I got in the Eastern spirituality. When the therapy did
Speaker 2: a lot of psychedelics, you know, did the whole thing,
Speaker 2: started meditating all the time, and it really it I
Speaker 2: kind of overcompensated. I became very I did get in
Speaker 2: touch with my emotions, but there was like a lot
Speaker 2: of anger there and a lot of like resentment, and
Speaker 2: and then also like a lot of selfishness came around.
Speaker 2: I came out with that, and I think it took
Speaker 2: me most of my twenties to kind of like mature
Speaker 2: out of that. And honestly, my like Models, my book
Speaker 2: was very much it was kind of towards the end
Speaker 2: of that journey. Like I think it took me many
Speaker 2: many years to learn how to be like I figured
Speaker 2: out how to attract women, like relatively early, but it
Speaker 2: took me a lot of failed relationships to figure out
Speaker 2: how to like actually be a good partner and and
Speaker 2: be a good man essentially. And so when I wrote Models,
Speaker 2: like I said, I was twenty seven, twenty seven to
Speaker 2: twenty eight, and it like it was really the goal
Speaker 2: of it was like write the book that I wish
Speaker 2: I had read when I was twenty, Like what is
Speaker 2: the healthy version of the pick up our artist stuff?
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's funny too because I wrote it I
Speaker 2: was like when I wrote it, I was like this industry,
Speaker 2: I was I was ready to get out of that industry.
Speaker 2: I was like pretty sick of it. And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: if I'm going to leave the industry, I should like
Speaker 2: kind of leave what everybody needs to actually hear. But
Speaker 2: they're not hearing. And I was convinced that everybody was
Speaker 2: going to hate it when it came out, and they
Speaker 2: did initially hate it. It got a lot of I
Speaker 2: got a lot of flack in that industry for the
Speaker 2: first year or two, and then it kind of took
Speaker 2: on a life of its own, and so it's it's
Speaker 2: like it's it's been one of the best selling men's
Speaker 2: dating books pretty much ever since, and it stills legs. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it still.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's personally changed my life. So I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you writing this and resonating on a frequency I wanted
Speaker 1: to resonating on that I wasn't resoning on with the
Speaker 1: other stuff in that whole crazy world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in hindsight, it's funny because it's like it's so obvious.
Speaker 2: I mean, as most things are, it's obvious in hindsight
Speaker 2: that you know, I was a guy like I was
Speaker 2: a mess in my relationships, but I also wanted to
Speaker 2: like live and act in integrity. And I like, it's
Speaker 2: so obvious to me now that there were thousands and
Speaker 2: thousands of men, like most of the men in the
Speaker 2: pickup artist space were probably in the same boat, and
Speaker 2: they were like, well, I wish I didn't have to
Speaker 2: lie and make up stories, but but this is kind
Speaker 2: of all that's like in front of me. So I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna go with it, you know. So it's in hindsight,
Speaker 2: I'm not surprise. It's not surprising that there was so
Speaker 2: much demand for it, but you know, at the time
Speaker 2: it was it really felt like I was like going
Speaker 2: out on a living uh, you know, saying some crazy stuff,
Speaker 2: so crazy talk. Be honest with women, I know, be honest,
Speaker 2: you're good, you have self respect. I know it's fucking
Speaker 2: it's it's insane, but no, I'm very I'm very proud
Speaker 2: of the book. And it's like it's it's a as
Speaker 2: a very close place in my heart.
Speaker 1: Beautiful. So, in conclusion, you don't have to be an
Speaker 1: asshole to attract a woman, No, you don't. And you
Speaker 1: also don't have to be a nice guy to attract women.
Speaker 1: I think that's a conclusion from both ends. Or not
Speaker 1: be yourself and lean into the best parts of yourself.
Speaker 2: I would say that the the nice asshole access is
Speaker 2: a different spectrum, is a different access as the attractive
Speaker 2: unattractive access. And yeah, you can be an attractive asshole,
Speaker 2: you can be an unattractive asshole. You can be a
Speaker 2: attractive nice guy, you mean, a unattractive nice guy. Thank
Speaker 2: you Mark, Thank you n One?
Speaker 1: What what what? What?
Speaker 2: What's that?
Speaker 1: What nice