1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: And wow, do we have a treasure to share with 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: you today. Today we are bringing you an interview that 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: we just conducted just just minutes before recording this with 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: with film director Werner Hertzog and his collaborator, the volcanologist 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Clive Oppenheimer. And this was so powerful. That's right. They 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: have a new documentary, Fireball Visitors from Darker Worlds and 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: a debuts November only on Apple TV. Plus it's an 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: Apple original film. You know. In the past few days, 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: I've just been mainlining Hertzog documentaries, all three actually involving 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: Clive Oppenheimer. So the first one was his I think 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: it was two thousand seven film, Encounters at the End 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: of the World. That's all about people in Antarctica and 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: how they ended up there, what they're doing there, and 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: one of them is this volcano researcher named Clive Oppenheimer 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: who's studying Mount Erebus. And this started a partnership between 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: Werner Herzog and Clive Oppenheimer. So They've worked together on 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: a couple of films since then. One was a fantastic 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: documentary about volcanoes called Into the Inferno, and now this 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: new one called Fireball, which is all about space impacts 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: and meteorites. That's right, Yeah, this one is directed by 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: Herzog and Oppenheimer, and it's written and narrated by Herzog. 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: These are both tremendous documentaries that I feel like they're 26 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: very much the sort of documentaries that stuff to blow 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: your mind listeners would enjoy because they are obsessed with 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: with not only science but human culture. And where where 29 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: the two meet? How how are understanding or interpretations of 30 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: of of cosmic or geologic events impact the formation and 31 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: the continuation of culture. I feel like we shouldn't delay 32 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: any longer. Should we go right to the interview. Let's 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: do it. Let's jump right in. Werner Herzag and Clive Oppenheimer, 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: welcome to the program. Thank you. We both watched this 35 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: documentary along with your previous collaboration Into the Inferno, and 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: we love them both both fabulous explorations of science and culture. 37 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: Where did the idea for Fireball come from? And when 38 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: did you film it? Well, it came from Clive, but 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: he has to explain yes. So about a year after 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: the release of Into the Inferno, I had been working 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: through one or two concepts for another film, but it 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: was actually by chance on a trip to South Korea, 43 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: I visited the Korean Polar Research Institute and they gave 44 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: me a tour of the facility and I saw their 45 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: their meteorite collection. They go every every year downtime Tarctica 46 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 1: and hunt for meteorites. They've got a thousand already, but 47 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: they're hoping I'll find something new. And it was while 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: speaking with the meteorite expert there and and just looking 49 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: at these wonderful stones that have fallen from from space, 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: that it just seemed that this was another very obvious, 51 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: ostensibly a gear science topic, but one that immediately touches 52 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: on human culture, on on our origins, origins of life, um, 53 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: human origins. Thinking about the large, the massive impact sixty 54 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: five million years ago that reset the biological clock on Earth, 55 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: three quarters of species went to the wall. Um. It 56 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: speaks to our destiny. And there was something also that 57 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: the scientific veneration of these stones. Each each was in 58 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: a cubicle like a microwave oven with a window but 59 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: in a in a nitrogen atmosphere to preserve them, and 60 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: they were all in and utmost have been feeling like 61 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: in a Catholic church relax of saints, yees behind class 62 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: and preserved somehow and untouchable. That's right, you know. They 63 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: were real veneration. And it was an echo for me 64 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: of the veneration of one of the holiest relics of Islam, 65 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: that the black Stone, which is also thought probably to 66 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: be meteoritic. So that that really inspired me and I 67 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: back home, I put together some ideas of how how 68 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: these themes might fit together, and I gave vernerical perhaps 69 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: that was the start of it. Production we we were 70 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: filming last year. We started filming in Um first of August, 71 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: I think last year, and through to Christmas Eve, and 72 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: we were editing. We finished editing in January. So we 73 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: were very very fortunate too to do the real um 74 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: work that involved a lot of travel before all the 75 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: lockdowns were in place, and so the post production was 76 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: done in Europe and l A. But this was possible 77 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: despite the lockdowns. It's funny that you mentioned the idea 78 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: of comparing the meteorites in their cases to the saints 79 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: and the relics because of course the nitrogen that they 80 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: keep them in there, it's basically to make them incorruptible, right, 81 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: that's right. And you know, particularly the meteorites, the so 82 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: called carbonaceous meteorites, carbonaceous chondrites, that have an extraordinary complement 83 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: of organic molecules, things like ribos of sugar, amino assets, 84 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: the building blocks of life. These are completely a biotic 85 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: and yet um I mean to me this, you know, 86 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: even as a as a geoscientist, I hadn't really taken 87 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: on board just the complexity and abundance of organic molecules 88 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: in certain meteorites, and so I find it very credible 89 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: the idea that these have delivered the building blocks, the 90 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: ingredients of life, not only in our Solar system, but elsewhere. 91 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: And you know, maybe all it takes is for one 92 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: of them to find the right environment with with the 93 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: right kind of temperatures or heating and cooling cycles, wetting 94 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: and drying cycles, in order to start to build very 95 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: simple living organisms. One of my favorite scenes in the 96 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: movie is actually when you're sniffing one of these meteorites, 97 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: and so I was wondering what that smells like. I've 98 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: actually read in other places that some meteorites smell like 99 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: cruciferous vegetables, like rotting cabbage, or like Brussels sprouts. I 100 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: think in the film you might have compared it to 101 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: moth balls, Is that right? Yeah, moth balls. It had 102 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: a very pungent smell. I mean, remember, these are molecules 103 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: that are four and a half billion years old, and 104 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: this was something again I had. I had no idea 105 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: of you know, that you could sniff a meteorite and 106 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: get such a strong smell of it. Um contents of 107 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: a vacuum cleaner bag is another another way maybe capturing 108 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: what it's like. It's it's quite hard to describe, but 109 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: unmistakable that that there is an odor to these stones. 110 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: And they've even used dogs sometimes to help find them 111 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: because they can sniff them out. If it's funny, because 112 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: I really wanted to take a sniff of it as 113 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: well with but I restrained myself because I hate the feeling. 114 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: I would breathe on it and and there would be 115 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: vapor on it, maybe men nose would be dripping on it, 116 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,559 Speaker 1: and what it could testrophy that would mean to wipe 117 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: out the center of four thousand, five hundred million years 118 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: back in time, so I didn't do it. I have 119 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: to rely on you to record what it was. It 120 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: would have been an interesting scientific paper and a fairly 121 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: humiliating retraction later when they realized that it was it's 122 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: not that it dribbled out of your nostrils. Well, that 123 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: reminds me of one of my favorite details leading up 124 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: to that scene, Verner. I thought it was interesting how 125 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: when you're going into the lab where some of these 126 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: meteorites are stored under these tight containment procedures to keep 127 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: them safe from contamination and degradation, there's a moment where 128 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: you focus on the sticky matt that everyone has to 129 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: walk through, uh to go into the room. And that 130 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: seemed like a detail that was very characteristic of your 131 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: eye for documentaries. To me, you noticing these uh, interesting 132 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: peripheral or process details that often wouldn't become the subject 133 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: matter of another documentary. Why do you think you noticed 134 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: things like that so often? Well, you would never see 135 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: it on in a film by Nest, the Geographic, PBS 136 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: or HBO. You don't see that. And I loved it, 137 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: And not only that it was sticky and this this 138 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: crazy I think greenish color when you rip it off, 139 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: the kind of ripping sound it makes, and I love 140 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: the sound, and I had repeated it a few times 141 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: because I wanted to have the sound recorded very well. 142 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: So those are things, of course that point out you're 143 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: entering a very specific, very special sphere. There's something special. 144 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: You do not walk in with your with your shoes 145 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: that you were out in the street. They have to 146 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: be cleansed and you enter with a certain preparation. The 147 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: camera enters prepared and the audience enters prepared, so you 148 00:09:54,640 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: always have to anticipate an audience behind you. And of 149 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: course it means you're never gonna be boring, you never 150 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: will be didactic. There has to be human that it 151 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: has to be awesome. Uh. And of course there's a 152 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: separate second story within the audience that you have to prepare, 153 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: the curiosity of the audience, the engagement of the audience, 154 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: And those are the moments where you where you really 155 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: capture them, where you really walk with them into into 156 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: this connection that sort of leads into the next thing 157 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask, which is I was wondering about 158 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: when you're looking at something all inspiring, So you're standing 159 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: in a colossal impact crater, or you're looking at the 160 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: exposed magma and the culdera of a volcano. How do 161 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: you think your experience is colored by the fact that 162 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: you are there to document it, whether that's for science 163 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: Clive or for film Warner, as opposed to just being 164 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: there and witnessing it with no real documentary mission. Well, 165 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: for me, there's no distinction. Do my job and I 166 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: enjoy the moment and somehow. Of course, in some cases 167 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: there's some danger when you're getting too close to create 168 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: a an active creator that is spitting out. Particis in 169 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: Mark mind slabs large as a truck when they come down, 170 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: so you better watch out. You do. We so, But 171 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: it's it's where life and filmmaking there's no distinction. I 172 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: think for me that I do send some distinction. I mean, 173 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: particularly in my scientific work on volcanoes, and I think 174 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: it's actually true as well of the filmmaking. The when 175 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: you're making a film or when I'm trying to measure 176 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: the gas coming out of a volcano, you have to 177 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: think about an awful lot of things all at the 178 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: same time. You have to be flexible. If you're trying 179 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: to make gas measurements on a volcano, you need to 180 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: worry all the time, which way is the wind blowing, 181 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: what's the volcano doing, Is it's safe to be here? 182 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: Why isn't the equipment working? And you know, in some 183 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: ways this this is so absorbing that actually you know 184 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: you're not having a transcendental moment about where you are. 185 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: And it's maybe when when everything is working just great 186 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: and the data is being collected and you can just 187 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: set aside and then and then stop and think, well, 188 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: my goodness, look where I am. I'm on the side 189 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: of a an active volcano crater in in Antarctica and 190 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: it's minus forty degrees celsius. Uh, And then you know, 191 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: then you're really aware where you are and what it 192 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: feels like to be there. Is also certain for me 193 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: is a filmmaking you'll become more fearless because you're doing 194 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: your job, and that has cost For example, work correspondence 195 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: steering the Vietnam War. The amount of casualties and fatalities 196 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: who had among the war photographers was staggeringly high because 197 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: they step into the crossfire and they take photos of 198 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: one side and photos of the other side firing at 199 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: each other and right in the middle of it, and 200 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: then they perish, and a camera gives you this kind 201 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: of quasi feeling of invulnerability. And having Clive around. For example, 202 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: in Indonesia, where we were filming a volcano that had 203 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: come back to life, Clive insisted we have to turn 204 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: the car round so that we can flee. And you 205 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: can't turn the car around on a no on a 206 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: ditch country, ditch road or so, which is not much 207 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: wider than the car. So we had to go one 208 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: mile further down and turn it around and then come back. 209 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: And Clive made sure the car is to face an exit. Uh. 210 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: And and all of a sudden we are seeing something 211 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: in the camera films and an eruption and classes to us, Uh, 212 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: stop the camera loaded now and we flye and and 213 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: we actually fled. And seven days later I think eleven 214 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: peasants who are doing farm work exactly at the same 215 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: spot perished in a similar eruption. Now this is interesting, 216 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: you know, in thinking about not only the craft of 217 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: creating the documentary, but the experience of creating the documentary, 218 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: I was curious. You know. Obviously you're going into it 219 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: with with certain ideas in mind, and then there's the 220 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: shoot itself, and then I imagine some reflection afterwards. Um, 221 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: what is the what is the experience? It's just a 222 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: curious individual like of of going on this journey. Um, 223 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: do find yourself coming out at the other end with 224 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: like a different idea or a different consideration of saying 225 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: near Earth objects or meteorites. No, we are always ready 226 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: for surprises. And Clive is wonderful in doing conversations spontaneous conversations. 227 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: Of course, is extremely well prepared. When we filmed with 228 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: the lay brother in the Vatican, the Jesuit he Clive 229 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: had read the doctoral dissertation of that man, which was 230 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: written in seventy nine, and he quotes from this, So cool, 231 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: for Heaven's sake, is prepared like like him. That's one side. 232 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: But the conversation can go anywhere. And of course, all 233 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: of a suddenly asks him if green men would come 234 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: out from a spacecraft, would you baptize said, and the 235 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: Jesuits said, yes, but go only if they asked for it. 236 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: So the conversation has to go its own course. And 237 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: but but you do not walk away having done that film, 238 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: and you are changed man. You see, that's that's a 239 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: postulate of the silly Hollywood screenplays. A person by Paige 240 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: Sturdy has to know his his task, and by page 241 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: six sixty he or she has to undergo the crisis, 242 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: and by the end of the film, he or she 243 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: has to exit the film as a changed person. Not 244 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: so for us we we we are we. I always 245 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: quote the Bavarian proverbial saying we are we and we 246 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: spell us us and And by the way, I would 247 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: never allow Clive to have a piece of paper in 248 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: his hand. I said, we are not journalists. We do 249 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: not have a catalog of Christians. Let let the thing roll, 250 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: let's tumble through it. So there's a moment in Fireball 251 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about where, uh, Clive, where you 252 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: are looking at micro meteorites under an extremely powerful microscope 253 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: under magnification, and you notice that the surfaces of the 254 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: dust grains that come down from space look in some 255 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: ways like the surfaces of moons or rocky planets. And 256 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: this is something I've read about in the geological world 257 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: as well as in the biological science. Is geometrical patterns 258 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: and textures that can be found repeating at vastly different 259 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: levels of resolution. Um, do you have thoughts about this, Clive, 260 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: Like why does the microscopic so often mirror the astronomical. 261 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: It's a good question. I hadn't thought of that, but 262 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: I mean, so these are cosmic dust micro meteorites that 263 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: were found by one of Norway's most famous jazz musicians, 264 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: Get Wonderful guitarist John Larsson, and he spent the last 265 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: ten years up on the roofs of sports arenas and 266 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: and in car parks, trawling collecting all the sludge of 267 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: of the urban but finding in it. And he's found 268 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: several thousand meteoritic grains now and these under high magnifica magnification, 269 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: they look absolutely wonderful, and you know, you would love 270 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: to have one at a large size sitting in your 271 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: living room. That's so beautiful to behold. But to answer 272 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: your question, I mean, I wonder if one of the 273 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: reasons why it struck me that this one of these 274 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: particular grains it it seemed to have fractures and it 275 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: that looked like almost like icebergs that were very kind 276 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: of liganal cracks and fishes between them. And then then 277 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: there was something that looked like it could be a 278 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: coastline that they've broken off from um. And it may 279 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: be that some of the processes are the same, just 280 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: a very different scales. And I'm thinking of things like 281 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: fluid dynamics. Fluid dynamics, there there are guiding principles, the 282 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: force of gravity, the fluidity of something, how viscous, how 283 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 1: sticky it is when when it's trying to flow, uh, 284 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: and and these processes. This has operated a vastly different 285 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: spatial scales. And so maybe that's why there is some 286 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: inherent similarity that we sometimes see. If I think you 287 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: have it in in the very abstract as well, and 288 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: it's a very deep question about the nature of the universe. 289 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: You have it in mathematics, uh, in fractals, in things 290 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, certain patterns reappear on a 291 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: very large scale, and the more miniscule you get keep 292 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: repeating itself. So there seems to be something inherent in 293 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: nature that we do not understand fully yet. And it's 294 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: very beautiful thought to pursue this kind of pattern that 295 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: manifests itself all of a sudden. And why is it 296 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: that on a very large scale you have patterns that 297 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: you find in a microscopic scale in the almost same 298 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: optical impression you have And then we have the the exception, 299 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: the pattern that never repeats itself, the quasi crystal with 300 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: the forbidden fivefold symmetry, and yet which which can be 301 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: you know, was was discovered by artisans in in iran 302 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: Um tiling tiling the shrine of a millennium ago. Yes, yes, 303 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: not method maticians like Penrose who describes it mathematically. That 304 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: that has been one of the most fascinating elements in 305 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: the film for me at all, because I did not 306 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: know about quasi crystals at all. And I have to 307 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: point out what the earliest supporter of the film was 308 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: the Simon's Foundation, where they have a sentbox film department 309 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: which supports films that have scientific background. And they are 310 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: on a new trajectory now to attract new audiences to 311 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: non didactic sort of cinema about science. And the man 312 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: who runs this, Greg Boasted, who is a scientist himself. 313 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: He sent me a book written by Paul Steinhardt, a 314 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: cosmologist who actually was in search of quasi crystals for 315 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: more than thirty years. And he's in the film and 316 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: and it's a it's a wonderful character, shy and never 317 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: been out in wild nature. I say in my commentary, 318 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: the deepest contact with the wild nature was the lawns 319 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: at Princeton University, and all of a sudden he goes 320 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: on a expedition into easternmost Siberia, close to the Bearing Strait, 321 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: into the underbrush and wild beast arounded clouds of mosquitoes, 322 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: and he finds remnants of small fragments of a meteorite 323 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: that carried quasi crystals. And it was proven, yes, they 324 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: existing nature out there in the universe, and it had 325 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: been improvement. It's a wonderful, wonderful story and for me 326 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: totally fascinating because I'm fascinated by mathematical things like that. 327 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: How is it possible that a structure in crystal said 328 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: is unthinkable, should be even forbidden, and it was forbidden 329 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: almost to think about it can be proven after understanding 330 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: a certain pattern. Just wonderful these kind of manifestations. And 331 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: I'm I would be if I didn't make films. I 332 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: would like to go into mathematics, but you have to 333 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: start as a child to really into it. Yes, because 334 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: I would like to be on the forefront of finding 335 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: out about three Month's theory, vere Month's hypothesis about prime numbers, 336 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: distribution of prime numbers, those things really really fascinate me. Well, 337 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: I had wondered if maybe I was reading faces in 338 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: clouds when I saw this connection in your work. But 339 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: I was thinking even in the earlier movie, in Into 340 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: the Inferno, I thought I saw verner in your eye 341 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: for the film, this idea of repeating patterns, because I 342 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: noticed there's the scene where you're searching for shattered fragments 343 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: of ancient human bone in the East African Ift in Ethiopia, 344 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: and then immediately you cut to the exposed magma surface 345 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: in the caldera of the nearby volcano, and the cooling 346 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: surface has cracks and it will look almost exactly like 347 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: the edges of the bone fragments that that Clive you 348 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: were just picking out with with I believe it was 349 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: Tim White of of Berkeley, the paleo anthropologist. Was that 350 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: on purpose or I was making crazy connections there? No, 351 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: I've never been aware of that. You are the first 352 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: one who points it out to look at it again. 353 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: Of course it was not fast. It was not on 354 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: purpose to make this connection. But you have the privilege 355 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: as an audience to make these connections. It didn't occur 356 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: to me, and not did I think occurred to Clive No, no, 357 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: but it's it's a wonderful residence. And I can still 358 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: watch into the inferno, which I have seen a good 359 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: few times now, and I will make a connection. We'll 360 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: see a motif reappearing somewhere that I hadn't I hadn't 361 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: spotted before, And I think that's for me, the joy 362 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: of making these kinds of films. For me, they're all 363 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: like a piece of music that you you would you 364 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: love and would listen to again and again. I feel 365 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: with with these films and with Werner's films that uh, 366 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, I could watch a gear gear a many 367 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: many times and never be bored of it. Um. So 368 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: that's that's part of the joy of this, this kind 369 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: of cinema, I would say, just you know, on the accidental, 370 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: accidental things coming good. One of my favorite bits of 371 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: film in Fireball UM is when we're up on the 372 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: Polar Plateau filming the meteorites search with the Koreans and 373 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: the camera was on for about half an hour without 374 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: us realizing it. So it's just been carried around and 375 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: it's pointing all over the place. But we looked at 376 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: this footage and then there's there was just one ten 377 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: five eight seconds worth of just it was just beautiful, 378 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: um just the shadows um our team cost on on 379 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: the blue ice, and because there were shadows, it gave 380 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: a depth into the ice, into this extraordinary glacial ice. 381 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: Just beautiful and completely accidental. So, Werner, you've emphasized the 382 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: ways that high energy natural phenomena like volcanic eruptions and 383 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: impacts from space can reveal us to be very tiny 384 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: and insignificant and powerless. But in this documentary and in 385 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: Into the Inferno, you show a lot of the ways 386 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: that people are drawn to exactly the sites of these 387 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: phenomena when they're trying to build a mythology that gives 388 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: their life meaning. Is there a counterintuitive logic at work here? 389 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: Does evidence of our insignificance and helplessness somehow kind of 390 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: give courage to the part of us that finds a 391 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: way to view our lives as part of a sacred 392 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: story or having a point? Well, that's a very profound question, 393 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: and I have never thought about it for a long time. 394 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: But of course, just looking at the universe, when you 395 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: look at the stars, when you're outside, outside of a 396 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: city where you really see the universe, and it of 397 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: course gives you an understanding of size, and when you're 398 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: in Antarctica, you get an understanding of you can walk 399 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: straight for the next five kilometers like walking across the 400 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: entire continentally United States, and you will not find a 401 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: human soul. And at the same time, the fact that 402 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: the day will last for five months until the sun 403 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: settles because it's circling in Antarctica during the Austrian summer. 404 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: So it gives a scale of of size and importance. 405 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: And of course visa v. The universe, which is monumentle 406 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: indifferent to us, we have to understand the size. And 407 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: yet at such moments we can also understand that here 408 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: and now, in what we are here's a certain importance 409 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: and we do the best out of the moment. We 410 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: create our our own consciousness to some degree, and we 411 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: are responsible for what we are doing, and we are 412 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: big in what we are doing here. So it's um 413 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: it's a strange balance and it sounds like a contradiction, 414 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: but it is not. I would add, I believe you 415 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: know that we are very much disconnected now. I mean, 416 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: more than half of us live in in cities, in 417 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: urban environments, and artificial light has colonized our night. Ah, 418 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: and how many of us can remember the last time 419 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: we saw the Milky Way, And I think that does 420 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: disconnect us from that sense of awe, of of the 421 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: the natural world of if you heard some story about 422 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: the earthquake in the valley, Yes, the the north Ridge 423 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: earthquake in in l A. This struck in February, I think, 424 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, and so people ran 425 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: outside their homes and pretty soon a number of calling 426 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: the emergency services because one calls they could see a 427 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: strange silvery cloud in the sky and they thought maybe 428 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: this was some noxious fumes given off from the San 429 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: Andreas fault. But what had happened the earthquake and knocked 430 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: out the para grid and so for the first time 431 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: they were seeing the Milky Way. Idea what it was? 432 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's people called emergency. You can completely 433 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: understand it. I mean, I live in a village outside 434 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: Cambridge in England. Um, but there's way too much light 435 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: pollution here to see more than a dozen stars at night, 436 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: And um, I think that's I think that's meaningful. Actually, 437 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: it has. It has an impact on on human society 438 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: that we no longer have that sense of wonder, of 439 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: of the infinite and of the nocturnal, because we've lost it, 440 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: but so many of us thank every now and then 441 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: you hear um of of various actors being described as 442 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: a force of nature, or their performance being a force 443 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: of nature that must be crafted or honed by and 444 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: by a director. Werner, what do you make of such comparisons, 445 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: especially having worked with actual volcanos and and alongside other 446 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: legitimate forces of nature in your films. You're not thinking 447 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: about klaus Kinsky, are you? Um we well, certainly he's 448 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: he's an actor that that comes to mind. Yeah, you 449 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: hear occasionally such performers compared to a force of nature. 450 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: But yeah that in in cheap Hollywood of that reviews, 451 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: this uh riveeting and maybe you know you know what 452 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: I mean, So you you should be careful in using 453 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: this kind of lingo that you're here in advertisements for 454 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: for mainstream Hollywood movies being praised by paid of mainstream reviewers. Anyway, 455 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: But if you mean somebody like Nicholas Cage in Bad 456 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: Lieutenant klaus Kinsky in Voitzek, sure, yes, there's something extraordinary 457 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: about performances and in Nasty in the presence on screen 458 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: which is completely unique and remarkable, and you do not 459 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: find it very often, but you do find it, and 460 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: you do find it like Timothy treadwilled grizzly Man. And 461 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: in a way Clive has a presence on camera which 462 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: is unique for a film like that. We only have 463 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: David Attenborough. But it's prepared texts, well written texts, and 464 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: but he puts a kind of excitement into it, and 465 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: and he he deserves being so famous and being so 466 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: loved by audience. Is a wonderful character. But Claive has 467 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: something which I really like is a is a strong 468 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: presence on screen, the sense of awe, the sense of respect, 469 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 1: the sense of discovery. And if we have a person 470 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: like him in a film, and we have not, we 471 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: don't pursue this kind of lifeless scientific documentaries. And we 472 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: find a man like him in front of a camera wonderful. 473 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: So I've been very lucky that I ran into Clive 474 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: on top of active volcano in Antarctica, a twelve thousand, 475 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 1: five hundred feet altitude, so the degrees below zero or something, 476 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: and he wore a treat jacket or something. He denies 477 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: it was a treat jacket. Wasn't a tweet jacket, but 478 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: the Harris tweet clan will be will be tracking you down. 479 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: But I mean it was. It looked like a tweet 480 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: check it or like the early Himalaya claimber, some early 481 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: Mount Everest claimbers would would tackle the mountain in tweet jackets. Well, 482 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: this was a Himalayan jacket. It was. It was from 483 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: Kuluminali in India. So I've I've never been a huge 484 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,479 Speaker 1: fan for synthetic fibers. I like, I like to wear 485 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: wool and cotton and all sorts of things you're not 486 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: supposed to wear anymore. In Antarctica, I don't wear I 487 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: don't use Finnisco and you know what the real old 488 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: timers did. But I guess my tweet jacket is pretty 489 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: close to what Mallory wore. You know, we use it 490 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: as a metaphor now, but we struck your appearance was 491 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: striking in the way you're talking to What you had 492 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: to say was just wonderful. So that's where where we 493 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 1: started to uh notice each other. And Clive actually I 494 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: think on the same one the following day said I 495 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: have a camera myself, can I speak to you? But 496 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: I would like to record it on make camera so 497 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: claim force into filmmaking already. Well, it was really the 498 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: first filmmaking I've done. I was working collaborating with an 499 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: Italian photographer and an artist on on a video installation, 500 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: so I had in Venice, was it correct? Ah, well 501 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's an interesting way. So when we were 502 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: putting this thing together, so our artom in Linker is 503 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: the name of the artist, and he thought we might 504 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: have a showing at the Biennale where you can imagine 505 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: coming out of the Ivory Tower in Cambridge. How excited 506 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: that I was at that prospect. It didn't go to Venice. 507 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: It went to the Vestivali Internazionale read Alba in La 508 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: which which I'm sure you know is is the it's 509 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: the big global event in toilet furnishings. If you're into 510 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: toilet furnishers, you're in bolog your foot for the church 511 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: I um uh convention um. The installation I mean commissioned 512 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: by what a very large ceramics company they were. They've 513 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 1: made a new product called volcanic stone. Uh. And so anyway, 514 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: this is why I had a cowpoint Verner. But the 515 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: that trip to admission to Antarctica, it was I'd say 516 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: very much a turning point for me because I had 517 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: this camera and I was feeling creative to be behind 518 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: the camera and not only thinking about measuring volcanic gases. 519 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: But of course it was also my encounter with Werner, 520 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: and I've been interested in in the idea of making 521 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: a volcano documentary for a number of years. My motivated 522 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: that was distaste for most volcano documentaries. I mean, coming 523 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: from knowing something about the topic. I knew watching a 524 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: lot of these documentaries. They were all identical. They all 525 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: had the line of it's it's not not not a 526 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: matter of if she blows, it's when, and then cuttingto 527 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: the commercial breaks. So I I already had a longing 528 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: to to do more than that because so much of 529 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: the documentary there are some good ones, but most they 530 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: go for the low hanging fruit. It's doom and gloom, 531 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: and it's not not the interesting stories, it's not the nuance, 532 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: it's not the entanglements of of nature and culture. So 533 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: I think, my lucky stars that I ran into Verna 534 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: up in this twelve half twelve and a half thousand 535 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: foot high volcano in Antarctica, in both the fireball and 536 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: into the inferno, you speak with people about their beliefs 537 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: and their traditions and the things that have that have 538 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: impacted those cultures and traditions to steer the direction of 539 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: their their worldviews. Uh. And an inferno you speak with 540 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: individuals whose faith is and is sometimes classified as as 541 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: a cargo cult belief system born out of contact between 542 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: Melanesian cultures in the Western military machine of the Second 543 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: World War. Um. What what was that experience like to 544 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: to actually, you know, to be there and speak with 545 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: them and and and and see them in person. Well, 546 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: I'd say I think there are a couple of elders 547 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: that we spoke within Vanuatu into the inferno. One, as 548 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: you say, that was the car occulted John from cult. Uh. 549 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: And I mean this this was it was very interesting conversation. Um. 550 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: In that particular case. I think this this cargo cult actually, 551 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: if you look at its roots, it starts very much 552 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: as a protest against the colonial authorities. Um. And this 553 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: is sort of back in the I guess it's starting 554 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: around around the time of the Second World War. And 555 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: people on the island of tanna Ah, they they've been 556 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: in in mission schools. They were just taught what the 557 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: British wanted them to know. And they said, well, you know, 558 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: we we want to go back to our traditions, we 559 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: want to drink again, we want to have our ceremonies. 560 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: And so one of the first things they did was 561 00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: to stop buying goods from the from the England shops 562 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: and that really upset the colonial authorities, so they they 563 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: threw these guys in prison for fifteen years. And so 564 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: that that's sort of what the cargo cults born born 565 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: from the other chap we spoke with. For me, one 566 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: of the most compelling conversations we've ever had on cameras 567 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: with Um the chief of Endu Village on Ambrim Island 568 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 1: in the north of the Bato Archipelago. And he he 569 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: lives just a few miles from a very active volcano. 570 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: At night he'll see the glow from the crater and 571 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: so it's it's literally a looming presence and an ever 572 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: present on on the landscape, and every now and then 573 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: ash will all out across their plots of land. Uh. 574 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: And he described his his feelings on one visit he 575 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: made to the crater and and he said, I I 576 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: looked in and I saw this. I saw this stuff 577 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: moving like the sea, you know, so I thought it 578 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: was water, but it was red, so it can't be water. 579 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: What what is it? And the way he describes this 580 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: makes complete sense. Ah, okay, I've I've trained in the geoscience, 581 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: so I have a different perspective on it. But I 582 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 1: find it very, very compelling how people formulate cosmologies when 583 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: they're faced by these awesome phenomena. And I mean that 584 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: in the sense of inspiring reverential fear as well as 585 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: inspiring or of of just the wonder of scene seeing 586 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: magma at night. I would like to eat two themes, 587 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,240 Speaker 1: because for me it sounds too theoretical when you explain 588 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: the colonial origins of current cults. Yes, sure we can 589 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: drag it back to that, but still it remains very 590 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: compelling and mysterious that we speak with people, or you 591 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: speak with people who believe that an American g. I. 592 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: John from lives in volcano and he, uh, the man 593 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: who with whom you speak has spent a whole night 594 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: inside of the cauldron of the volcano. What were you 595 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: talking about? So the presence and defication the creation of 596 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: a god out of a g I an average G. I. 597 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: John from is fantastic for me, and it had to 598 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: be in the film. The second, which I remember was 599 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: very important. We discussed how do you talk to them 600 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: the attitude, and you said, I know how to do it, 601 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: and I trusted because it shouldn't be condescending, it shouldn't 602 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: be patronizing, it shouldn't be funny, it shouldn't be you 603 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: see in in your quiet curiosity and respect is something 604 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: which which makes the scene unforgetful. So you have to 605 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: have when you do something like this, you have to 606 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: have somebody of your caliber to do it right. And 607 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: and this was on our mind throughout all the conversations 608 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: we had, and it was on our mind when we 609 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: did conversations with let's say female artists in Western Australia, 610 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: an Aboriginal woman h and the way you talk to 611 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: her and you the way you are interested to understand 612 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: her painting and how she explains. It's a wonderful tone 613 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: to it. And you do not see that in movies. 614 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: You don't see it, but we were able to create it. 615 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of thinking behind it, and in 616 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: a lot of natural decency that's in you is behind it. Vernon, 617 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: I would say in a lot of your movies. It 618 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 1: seems one thing you enjoy capturing is a palpable sense 619 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: of unpredictability about what's on camera, and that comes through 620 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: even in the conversations. I would say a lot of 621 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,959 Speaker 1: the conversations that you capture in these films feel less 622 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: scripted and less predictable and less worked out in advance 623 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 1: than most conversations and documentaries do. Yes, of course, because 624 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 1: we trust in our ability to follow the moment, and 625 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: we trust in our ability to go to the essence 626 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,280 Speaker 1: very quickly. So you see, we we do not shoot 627 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: endless hours and hours and hours. We go to Castel 628 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 1: Gandorf when we speak to the Jesuit uh lay brother. 629 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: Neither Clive has met him in personally on the phone, 630 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: nor have I ever met him. We go in and 631 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: into in an hour flat to us. So we have 632 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 1: done filming, and it's wonderful and and we know we 633 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: we captured, we captured the essence of what we wanted 634 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: to do. So we bring skills, We bring certain skills 635 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: to the set that come to fruition in a very condensed, 636 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: in a very condensed way. And thanks God we have 637 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: these capabilities, because otherwise we would have made a boring 638 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: didactic film and we must acknowledge to that that we're 639 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: part of a team with with you know, wonderful cinematographer 640 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: Peter Zeidlinger who was the OP for both of these films, 641 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: and a sound engineer recordist Paul Paragon, both you know, 642 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: extraordinary professionals. The way Peter works with the camera it's 643 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: it's very he's extraordinary. I mean again as well as 644 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: says we're we turn up, we meet people for the 645 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: first time, and we've maybe had a few conversations on 646 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: the phone, um, and we have a very clear sense 647 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,959 Speaker 1: of purpose of oh, what what we're after and what 648 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: what themes we want to dig into? Um. But then 649 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: the way Peter works with the cameras is is a 650 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: marvel to behold. Paul our sound record is you know, 651 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 1: he'll be up at five o'clock in the morning before 652 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: the birds are up to it to record a wonderful 653 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: ambience that that might then be woven into our soundtrack. 654 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: So it's it's a collective effort with you know, all 655 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: of us knowing knowing what we're doing and how how 656 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: this is going to work work out and fit together. 657 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: I would say one of my favorite examples in in 658 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: your recent films that that I've heard of that sound 659 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,919 Speaker 1: gathering is in Encounters at the End of the World. 660 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: You have a wonderful selection and of sort of the 661 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: commerce of the ice, all the inhuman sounds, of the 662 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: chucking made by the seals, and the cracking of the 663 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: ice behind you. It does give you a sense that 664 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: there is a world taking place there that's utterly inhuman, 665 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: and yet it's very active. I think this fakes back 666 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: very to my very very first films. We were a 667 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:28,879 Speaker 1: group of young people and we teenagers actually eighteen eteineers old, 668 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: and we all helped each other, eight of us or 669 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 1: nine of us. Only two finished their films. One was 670 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 1: a friend of mine and the other one was me, 671 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: and the others failed because of sound problems. And it 672 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: gave me and all of a sudden I became alert 673 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: how important sound was, and it was of essence and 674 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: it can make a film fail. And out of nine films, 675 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: seven failed because of sound problems. But it was it 676 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: was young filmmakers, eighteen nine twenty years old, with without 677 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,240 Speaker 1: any formal training. One of us didn't go to film school. 678 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: Now you've you've both mentioned already. Um, what other documentaries 679 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: do differently or have have have gotten wrong? Perhaps? Can 680 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: you both think to two examples of documentaries you're exposed 681 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: to early on that inspired you that where you watched 682 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 1: them and said this, this is this is what I 683 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: want to do. This is the sort of documentary I 684 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: could see myself making question fundamentally aims beyond me, doesn't 685 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: hit me? I always said the feeling. I am the 686 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: inventor of cinema, and I see documentaries where everything is 687 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: done wrong, didactic, stupid, sensationalistic understanding documentaries as part of journalist, 688 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: and I said, get away from that. I only have 689 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: negative definitions, only the sins I can name, not the virtues. 690 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,359 Speaker 1: So in in viewing these documentaries that I couldn't help 691 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,760 Speaker 1: but think of the divine comedy. You know, we began 692 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: obviously in the Inferno and in Fireballs in some ways 693 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 1: about a bridge between Earth and sky. You know, the 694 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 1: amount of purgatory. Uh So, I mean that just leads 695 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: me to the obvious question, what's next? If you were 696 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: to do another documentary project together, what do you think 697 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: you might consider? I think I will come up with 698 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: something fiendish back to hell. Yeah, I will and we 699 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: we have at least a trilogy in as I I 700 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: feel that and I've always got a few ideas that 701 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: are half baked, and and when I get to get time, 702 00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,799 Speaker 1: I'll sit down and really have a thing. Um. Ultimately, 703 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 1: I would like to move m beyond scientific topics in 704 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: in my filmmaking. I'm very interested in in other aspects 705 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: of human culture. But I think for me it's it's 706 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: always about the complexities and and I think one of 707 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: the things, of course, that I've learned so much about 708 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 1: through working with Werner is is storytelling is narrative, and 709 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: I find it's even informing now my scientific writing. Oddly enough, 710 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 1: I think more in terms of how do I tell 711 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: this this story of this finding that I've I've got 712 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: to from some of my own research. But whatever it is, 713 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: you shall not be speeding towards the imperiod at incalculable speed. 714 00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: I think, you're I mean, you're, you're, You're right to 715 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:07,280 Speaker 1: you recognize these these resonances between Fireball and into the inferno. 716 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: I mean these these are geophysical, geological celestial phenomena, volcanoes, 717 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 1: asteroid collisions, meteorites, ah, but they have so much more 718 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: significance for humans in terms of um, what we think 719 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: of our origins, what we think of the afterlife, are 720 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,120 Speaker 1: our ideas of of of heaven, of the nether world, 721 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: of the underworld. These are very intimately bound with these 722 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 1: these terrestrial, earthly, subterranean, and celestial imperium phenomena. All right, well, 723 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: there you have it. We hope you enjoyed this chat. 724 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: We certainly enjoyed this particular interview. I feel like it 725 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: was unlike any interview we've done before. Yeah, it was 726 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 1: like having an audience with a couple of wise and 727 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 1: stern kings of the cosmos. Yes, so yeah, hopefully we 728 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: didn't come off to starstruck in this one once again. 729 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:15,840 Speaker 1: If you want to check out the film, it is 730 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: Fireball Visitors from Darker Worlds, a film by Werner Herzag 731 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 1: and Clive Oppenheimer. It is an Apple original film. It 732 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: debuts November only on Apple TV Plus. In the meantime, 733 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of 734 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,800 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind, you can find us wherever 735 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. 736 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,480 Speaker 1: We just asked that you rate, review, and subscribe if 737 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: you want to get to us rather quickly. You can 738 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:42,399 Speaker 1: always go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com 739 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,360 Speaker 1: and that will shoot you over to the I heart 740 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 1: page for our show. You can find all the episodes 741 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: there as well, and there's also a button you can 742 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,880 Speaker 1: push for our store and that I'll take you to 743 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 1: a place where you can buy some T shirts, some stickers, 744 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,279 Speaker 1: et cetera with our logo on them, or perhaps a 745 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: monster or two huge things. As always to our excellent 746 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 747 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,800 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 748 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,279 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest topic for the future, or 749 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact. 750 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot company. Stuff to 751 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 752 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,719 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i heart 753 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 754 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: favorite shows.