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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out domestic

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Speaker 1: strife inside of Russia. Even Putin's allies are speaking publicly

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Speaker 1: against the mobilization. Let's put this up there over on

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Speaker 1: the screen. Russian's two most senior lawmakers address the complaints,

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Speaker 1: saying that they might solve the quote excesses that have

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Speaker 1: stoked major public anger. That is specifically because regional officials

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Speaker 1: inside of Russia are coming to the Kremlin and to

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Speaker 1: Putin and to many lawmakers apparently and just saying hey,

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Speaker 1: like this is actually really unpopular here at home. What

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Speaker 1: they point to here is that the mounting resistance to

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Speaker 1: Putin is at all levels of society. So not only

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Speaker 1: do we see crystal those protest. Again, look, we're not

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Speaker 1: in Russia. It's hard to gauge what exactly is going on.

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Speaker 1: What we can't say is there are protests to what

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Speaker 1: extent how much popular support do they have. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea. I'm not there on the ground, but they

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Speaker 1: exist and they got media attention. That's number one. Number

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Speaker 1: two is at the regional level and at many of

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Speaker 1: the mobilization centers and more, there are displays of quote

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Speaker 1: unquote Refuseniks and of others who are doing their best

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Speaker 1: to try and get out of this. There's reports and

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Speaker 1: video that are coming out of people saying you need

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Speaker 1: to do your duty right now. Enough playtime boys. You know,

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Speaker 1: at people who are basically protest at the so called

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Speaker 1: mobilization centers, they're threatened then with consequences. So the state

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Speaker 1: is mobilizing to a place that we haven't seen from

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Speaker 1: like the war machine in Russia since I guess the

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Speaker 1: days of the Soviet Union. I mean, it really at

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Speaker 1: a very very small level it's not even close to

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Speaker 1: the same. But this mirrors Russian tactics in World War

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Speaker 1: One and in World War Two in the way they

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Speaker 1: treated their population and compelled them in order to quote

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Speaker 1: unquote fight for them. Their tremendous advantage in warfare has

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Speaker 1: always have been they have a ton of bodies, and

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Speaker 1: they're basically willing to mobilize their entire authoritarian state to

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Speaker 1: force them and kill as many as possible to try

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Speaker 1: and have defense. But their problem is this is a

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Speaker 1: war of offense. And you know, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that we pointed to in the beginning was this is

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Speaker 1: a lot like what's going on. When Russia invaded Finland

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Speaker 1: the Winter War nineteen thirty nine, they lost like one

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand people, and it was specifically because tactics like this,

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Speaker 1: and they had a population that was like, Hey, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to do that, Like, why do I want

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Speaker 1: to conquer Finland? I got nothing to do with this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was listening to Michael Kaufman on a podcast yesterday

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Speaker 1: and he laid out what was kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: he's very skeptical that this mobilization is going to really

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Speaker 1: make much of a difference for Russia. But he laid

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Speaker 1: out what was kind of the best case scenario for them,

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Speaker 1: which is that they use these bodies, basically untrained bodies

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Speaker 1: that are I mean imagining two weeks of training and

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Speaker 1: then you're in war. I mean, it's basically a meat shield.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, that's exactly what it is. And

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Speaker 1: so he's saying, Okay, use them, like stick them in

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Speaker 1: the trenches and they basically hold the defensive line. You

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Speaker 1: reconstitute the forces that are on the ground, the like

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Speaker 1: remaining actually trained skilled forces that you have, and then

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Speaker 1: you use them for some sort of an offense. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of the best case like strategy that they could

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Speaker 1: employ at this point. And you know, I don't think

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Speaker 1: any of us should be overly certain about how any

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Speaker 1: of this goes because obviously, you know, every analyst has

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Speaker 1: gotten significant parts of this wrong at every turn. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I think there continues to be a lot

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Speaker 1: of skepticism that this is going to make it huge

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Speaker 1: difference militarily, while domestically, you know, it does look like

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Speaker 1: there is the population previously had been kind of ignoring

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Speaker 1: the war. They kind of weren't really paying attention to it.

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Speaker 1: There's some was some independent pulling to that effect that

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Speaker 1: was in this Wall Street Journal piece that we had

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Speaker 1: up before. It's had recent independent polls showed most Russians

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Speaker 1: had lost interest in the conflict. But now, even though

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Speaker 1: what Putin is saying is that it's just for people

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Speaker 1: at prior military experience, you know, they call them reservists,

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Speaker 1: they're not exactly reservists in the way that we think

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Speaker 1: of it. Even though they're saying, Okay, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be limited to three hundred thousand people, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons to be skeptical of that claim. Every mother, wife,

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Speaker 1: daughter in Russia is now worried about their man. And

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Speaker 1: we're gonna put up here, we can put up a

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Speaker 1: six Putin's draft draws resistance in Russia's far flung regions.

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Speaker 1: So far they seemed to be and again, you know

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Speaker 1: this based on the reporting, the best that we can

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Speaker 1: get seem to be concentrating their mobilization in the sort

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Speaker 1: of like more rural, less educated, more far flung regions

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Speaker 1: of Russia. And the reason they do that is because

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Speaker 1: they think, you know, these are people who, first of all,

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Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of as much access to

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Speaker 1: the internet so they're just fed government propagandas so they're

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Speaker 1: more likely to be like staunch Krumlin supporters, or at

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Speaker 1: least believe the Krumlin narrative. That's number one. Number two,

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Speaker 1: they have lower levels of education. They think that they're

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Speaker 1: going to put up less of a fight. And this

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Speaker 1: article speaks to you know a number of people who

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Speaker 1: are on the ground and these rural, remote villages who

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Speaker 1: are saying like they're they're drafting, you know, a massive

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Speaker 1: percentage of our men and we're screwed for winter and

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Speaker 1: like you know, our basic like economy and the reindeer

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Speaker 1: herders and all of this, it's really at risk. So

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Speaker 1: even in these places that they thought would be their

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Speaker 1: strongest bastions of support, they're finding a lot of resistance,

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of fear, and frankly, a

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Speaker 1: lot of desperation. So again it's very limited what we

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Speaker 1: can see into, you know, the whole of that country

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Speaker 1: and how people are feeling and how they're responding to

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Speaker 1: it and all of that. But there does seem to

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Speaker 1: be there was such an attempt to shield the population

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Speaker 1: from what was going on in Ukraine. Putin has really

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Speaker 1: ripped the mask off with this one move and made

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Speaker 1: it super, super real, tangible and frightening for people across

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Speaker 1: the country. They have a quote from a woman in

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Speaker 1: one of these remote villages in that piece, and she

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Speaker 1: says on television, they say that this is about defending

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Speaker 1: the fatherland, but the threat is now not so much

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Speaker 1: to the fatherland but to our own lives. So it

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Speaker 1: was one thing when it was this sort of distant conflict,

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Speaker 1: but now that the possibility of their sons, husbands, loved

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Speaker 1: ones being sent, you know, like meat shields into this

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Speaker 1: war with little to no training, now that really changes

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Speaker 1: the way people feel about it. And the last thing

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Speaker 1: I want to say about this is, you know, I

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Speaker 1: keep bringing up this shooting at the recruitment center, and

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Speaker 1: the reason I think this is significant is up to

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Speaker 1: this point, the overwhelming majority of the protest and resistance

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Speaker 1: to this war that we've seen has been peaceful. Well,

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Speaker 1: we know what happens in societies when peaceful avenues of

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Speaker 1: descent are shut down, then people morph into not peaceful descent.

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Speaker 1: And we've already had I think it was like ten

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Speaker 1: military recruitment centers that have been set on fire. Now

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Speaker 1: you have this, you know, this shooting. So it's a

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Speaker 1: very volatile and dangerous situation, I would say on the ground,

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Speaker 1: as best we can tell from here, absolutely, and all

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Speaker 1: it will require is more authoritarianism on Putin's part, and

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Speaker 1: that's what's going to happen. And that's really what the

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Speaker 1: sad part is. I mean everybody talks about in the days,

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Speaker 1: is so a union Like whenever your son was drafted

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Speaker 1: you basically said goodbye. You're like, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: see this guy again. I mean it basically a seventy

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Speaker 1: percent chance of dying within I think it was like

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Speaker 1: the first month on the front line. We don't know

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Speaker 1: what the casualty rate is in Russia. Is it that bad? No?

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Speaker 1: Is it the six thousand they claim are killed? Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: That's a laughable number. What we do know, you know

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Speaker 1: a little bit of open source stuff that trickles out.

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Speaker 1: Let's put this up there on the screen. This is

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Speaker 1: a photo from a Russian airport. Just look at the

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Speaker 1: number of just young men military age males, I guess

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Speaker 1: to use a military term, that are just flooding the

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Speaker 1: airport and those border cross so young. I see some

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Speaker 1: white hair and there's some dudes there who are like

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Speaker 1: probably right on the cusp, and like I'm getting the

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Speaker 1: hell out of here. And there was some really sad videos,

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Speaker 1: you know, talk you know, especially like you said, from

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Speaker 1: the far flung of people kissing their wives goodbye and

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Speaker 1: getting on the bus and they're just weeping because I mean,

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Speaker 1: they they know, they're not stupid, they know what possible

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Speaker 1: fate awaits them. And you know, let's put the next

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Speaker 1: one up there on the screen. We're talking about here

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Speaker 1: about Google searches in rush, our search engine searches. This

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Speaker 1: is for how to break your own arm. Massive spike

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Speaker 1: on the day of mobilization, same thing. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of people who want to try and

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Speaker 1: get out of combat, not get drafted, get some sort

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Speaker 1: of military exemption. It really is just a terrible, terrible situation.

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Speaker 1: So there's a domestic strife in Russia for sure, to

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Speaker 1: what extent. Who knows you can't have war without domestic strife.

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Speaker 1: So is it very big? Is it a threat to

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Speaker 1: the regime? I don't know yet. You know, there's just

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Speaker 1: really no way to say. The way that these things

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Speaker 1: go is, of course they're going to get a ton

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Speaker 1: of press here in the West, and you know we

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Speaker 1: can and should cover it. We can't, nor should we

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Speaker 1: overstate though, threat that this could be. It could all

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Speaker 1: work out in Putin's favor, right there is you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's always darkest before the dawn, but I personally

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily see that. But like I said, been humbled

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Speaker 1: by making predictions in Ukraine. Like, all we can say

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Speaker 1: is it's a tragedy for the three hundred thousand who

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Speaker 1: have been drafted here. I mean, yeah, yeah, that's the

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Speaker 1: other way. It knows whether it's true or some of

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Speaker 1: this could be supports to how many of these guys

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Speaker 1: actually make you to the front line. Maybe fifty. I mean,

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Speaker 1: well that realistically, you know, changed the reality on the ground.

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Speaker 1: That's what Kaufman has been saying as well. So it's

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Speaker 1: everybody is in a wait and see. But it's bad

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Speaker 1: for the Ukrainians obviously gonna have more people on there.

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Speaker 1: It's bad for you know, the actual draftees themselves and

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Speaker 1: Potent himself in a very very sticky situation of his

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Speaker 1: own making. All right, we got an update for you

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Speaker 1: on Brett Favre in this situation down in Mississippi. Okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a complicated story, and I

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Speaker 1: do have to recommend my own monologue on the matter

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Speaker 1: to get the whole backstory in like all the details here,

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Speaker 1: But the TLDR is basically Mississippi has long been one

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Speaker 1: of the stingiest states, if not the stindiest state in

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Speaker 1: the country in terms of welfare funds. You get a

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Speaker 1: block grant from the federal Kavernman and states have a

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Speaker 1: lot of latitude at this point post Bill Clinton and

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Speaker 1: what they can do with this money. Poor people in

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Speaker 1: the state weren't getting the money, so there was a

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Speaker 1: big question, Okay, who is getting the money? Turns out

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Speaker 1: that a bunch of like wealthy, politically connected scammers were

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Speaker 1: getting millions and mill tens of millions of dollars out

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Speaker 1: of the state's welfare fund, some for direct personal use

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Speaker 1: investments in this like sort of scammy med tech company

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Speaker 1: all that. It turns out that Brett fav is a

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Speaker 1: lead investor in. He was also paid to give quote

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Speaker 1: unquote speeches that and we're talking about like one point

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Speaker 1: five million dollars to give speeches that apparently he never gave.

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Speaker 1: But the big focus with regard to Brett Farr is

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Speaker 1: the fact that he was pushing for something like five

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Speaker 1: million dollars to build this stadium volleyball stadium for his

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Speaker 1: daughter at her university as the same university that he

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Speaker 1: went to and played football at. And he was his

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Speaker 1: buddies with the former governor Phil Brian. He was texting

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Speaker 1: back and forth with him, texting back and forth with

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Speaker 1: this lady who was at the center of some of

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Speaker 1: the other fraud and her son trying to bilk the

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Speaker 1: welfare fund for this money. He denies wrongdoing. He says

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Speaker 1: he had no idea that this money was coming this

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Speaker 1: fun Well, there are new court filings that do not

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Speaker 1: cast mister Farv in a very positive light. ESPN has

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Speaker 1: the right up here. Let's go ahead and put it

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Speaker 1: up on the screen. They say Brett Favre pressed for

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Speaker 1: facility funding despite being told that the legality was in question.

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Speaker 1: According to this new court filing. By the way, and

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Speaker 1: I'll get into a little bit more of this, the

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Speaker 1: court filing is from the former governor Phil Bryant, who

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Speaker 1: is trying to protect his ass So keep that in mind.

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Speaker 1: He released some selected text messages to try to cast

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Speaker 1: himself in the best possible light. This former governor and

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Speaker 1: so what FARV texted him. In these text messages that

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Speaker 1: were in the court filing, he says, we obviously need

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Speaker 1: your big your help big time, and time is working

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Speaker 1: against us. FARV wrote, and we feel that your name

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Speaker 1: is the perfect choice for this facility, and we are

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Speaker 1: not taking no for an answer. You are a Southern

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Speaker 1: miss alumni and folks need to know you're also a

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Speaker 1: supporter of the university. Bryant responded by text, according to

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Speaker 1: the filing, quote, we are going to get there. This

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Speaker 1: was a great meeting, but we have to follow the law.

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Speaker 1: I am too old for federal prison. And then he

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Speaker 1: did like a smiley face in the sunglass EMOCHI. But repeatedly,

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Speaker 1: even after being told by the governor, like I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is legal, FARV continues to press so

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Speaker 1: that seems to indicate he knew this was shadier than

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Speaker 1: he's letting on now that he's like, oh, I had

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Speaker 1: no idea. I thought it was all about born. The

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Speaker 1: whole thing that drives me insane about this is like

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Speaker 1: you said, it's not just far but it's like a

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Speaker 1: bunch of wealthy people in the statement this funds for welfare,

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Speaker 1: like these are literally funds so that poor people you

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Speaker 1: can eat a single Mundy literally stole funds from poor

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Speaker 1: people to line the pockets of rich people. I mean

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Speaker 1: literally welfare for rich people. And Brett is worth one

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten million dollars, multi millionaire Maney, he could

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Speaker 1: build the stadium by himself if he wants. He's so

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Speaker 1: bad Yeah, for his daughter's volleyball program. Yes. The best

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Speaker 1: part is when he's like, use of these funds is

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Speaker 1: tightly controlled, Improper use could result in violation of federal law.

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Speaker 1: And he's still like, yeah, let's do it, though, but again,

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Speaker 1: what let's yeah? And let's keep in mind, though that

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Speaker 1: this is a court filing from the former governor who's

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Speaker 1: trying to cover his assets. Say, well, I warned this

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Speaker 1: was not this was shady, et cetera. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of other information to indicate that this guy was in

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Speaker 1: on the whole thing, knew what was going on, was

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Speaker 1: trying was coaching far from this other lady on how

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Speaker 1: to write the proposal to get around the to like

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Speaker 1: create legal loopholes and get around the issues. And there

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Speaker 1: was rampant tens of millions of dollars of fraud in

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Speaker 1: this welfare fund while he was governor. So let's put

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Speaker 1: this next piece up on the screen. That's from Mississippi today.

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Speaker 1: They have been doing phenomenal work breaking all of this down.

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Speaker 1: I really encourage you to support them if you can.

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Speaker 1: Former Governor Phil Bryant moves to keep text private while

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Speaker 1: denying he helped channel welfare funds who brought Farre's volleyball stadium.

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Speaker 1: So he's objecting to turning over any of his records

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Speaker 1: and the full extent of his text messages in this filing.

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Speaker 1: They just like took out the ones that they thought

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Speaker 1: were the most favorable for them. They shared those, But

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Speaker 1: they're saying, we don't need to give you anything else.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't have anything to hide, wouldn't you want

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Speaker 1: to release all of those text messages and say, see,

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Speaker 1: here is the whole account of what happened with regards

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Speaker 1: as freaking stateium. I didn't have anything to do with it.

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Speaker 1: I was telling them I was illegal. I was like saying, no,

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Speaker 1: we can't go down this road. So the fact that

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Speaker 1: he's going to great lengths to make sure that these

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Speaker 1: text messages stay hidden is very suggestive of his role

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Speaker 1: in this whole thing, and as I said before and

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Speaker 1: covered in my monologue, there were a lot of other

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Speaker 1: text messages that looked very very bad for him. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, the current governor, and they're both Republicans

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Speaker 1: and both you know, know each other and similar donors

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Speaker 1: and whatever. Current governor seems to be helping him to

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Speaker 1: try to you know, not investigate his role and to

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Speaker 1: keep these text messages hidden, etc. Etc. So Governor Phil

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Speaker 1: Bryant may may look like he's okay, and some of

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Speaker 1: these text messages that his court that came out in

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Speaker 1: his court filing, but remember there was other information that

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Speaker 1: was released where he was directly involved, seemed to know

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Speaker 1: where the funds were coming from, and was coaching them

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Speaker 1: on how to how to help this like avoid legal scrutiny. Right.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the real The key is, Look, Brett,

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Speaker 1: you far you could clear your name today. Release every

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Speaker 1: single text message that you got with the governor. I

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Speaker 1: wait for the subpoena, same with all of them. You

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Speaker 1: guys say you haven't done anything good. Publisher published it.

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Speaker 1: Release the transcript, as we once used to say. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's a tremendous tale of corruption from what

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Speaker 1: we've seen so far, and I hope that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people go to jail as a result of this,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least are fine to high hell,

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Speaker 1: because it is repulsive to steal from a literal welfare

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Speaker 1: fund to you know, for nepotism purposes, and when you're

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Speaker 1: famous and leveraging political power. All in a state which

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Speaker 1: looks Mississippi. I mean they've they've, they've they're suffering, right,

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Speaker 1: it's welfare already is an issue, you know. I think

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Speaker 1: it's one of the most obese, like unhealthy states in

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Speaker 1: the US. It's even the poorest or the second port right,

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Speaker 1: it's always up or places. Yeah, this is a place

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Speaker 1: putting in Jackson, Yes, yeah, exactly. I mean that's that's

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Speaker 1: why there's not an accident that it happens there. So

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Speaker 1: you know, already, steal from poor people in general is terrible,

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Speaker 1: but still from some of the poorest people in the country, yeah,

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Speaker 1: is like an extra level of it's unbelievable when you're

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Speaker 1: already this filthy rich. And then the last piece of

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Speaker 1: this that is quite shocking, just to show you the

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Speaker 1: level of depravity and disgustingness that was going on here,

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Speaker 1: this text from Brett Favrev go ahead and put it

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Speaker 1: up on the screen. When asking Bryan in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: for help finding funding to construct lockers at the facility, quote,

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Speaker 1: it would be helpful if someone would build them on

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Speaker 1: their spare time, Poncho mentioned the prison industry, possibly as

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Speaker 1: a builder. So Brett Favre there floating. I mean he's

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Speaker 1: floating prison late, right, Isn't that what that means? That's

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Speaker 1: what he's saying, Yeah, floating using prison labor to make

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Speaker 1: a volleyball stadium for his daughter. And you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a dude who's worth one hundred million dollars, would over

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Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars. I have no words, no words,

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Speaker 1: it's just so it is genuinely crazy, like whenever you

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Speaker 1: consider everything going on with this and wep, okay it's on, uh,

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Speaker 1: mister Farv and all of them can clear their name,

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Speaker 1: they can tell us exactly what's going on. That's what

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Speaker 1: we're calling at least the emails, release the text. Let's

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Speaker 1: see it all. Absolutely, this is really interesting digging into

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Speaker 1: some of the economic numbers. Let's go and put this

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Speaker 1: first piece up on the screen. This is what really

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Speaker 1: uh sort of sparked this conversation for US. Anyway, every

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Speaker 1: single major currency this is from Joe Wisenthal is lower

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Speaker 1: against the dollar today, except the ones that haven't started

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Speaker 1: trading yet. So I don't want to get too much

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Speaker 1: in the weeds here so that ice glaze over. But effectively,

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Speaker 1: what is going going on is because our Federal Reserve

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Speaker 1: is hiking interest rates. That is causing massive ripple effects

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Speaker 1: throughout the world economy, and in particular this is a

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Speaker 1: problem for countries that have a lot of dollar denominated

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Speaker 1: debt or that rely on a lot of imports from

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Speaker 1: around the world. Because the dollar continues to be the

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Speaker 1: global reserve currency, it continues to like forty percent of

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Speaker 1: the world's transactions are done in dollars, So when the

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Speaker 1: Federal Reserve increases their rate, it usually increases interest rates

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Speaker 1: throughout our economy. That tends to make the dollars stronger.

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Speaker 1: That attracts investment capital from investors abroad seeking high returns

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Speaker 1: of bonds and interest rate not necessarily bad thing for US,

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Speaker 1: but for the rest of the world now it costs

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Speaker 1: them more to do basically anything. And again this is

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Speaker 1: especially a problem for places that have a lot of

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Speaker 1: dollar denominated debt or that have to import things like food,

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Speaker 1: like basic or fuel basic items. Now everything is more expensive,

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Speaker 1: and this becomes an issue for us as well well,

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Speaker 1: because obviously the economy is incredibly globally integrated, so it's

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Speaker 1: not like we're this little island and we can protect

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Speaker 1: ourselves from what's going on around the world. So that's

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Speaker 1: why this is something to really pay attention to. I

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Speaker 1: was reading an article and there was an economist here

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Speaker 1: who put it this way. Central banks, of course, have

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Speaker 1: purely domestic mandates. However, because economies are more interdependent than

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Speaker 1: they have ever been and so closer cooperation is needed,

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Speaker 1: I don't think central banks can have the luxury of

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Speaker 1: not thinking about what is happening abroad. This has been

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Speaker 1: particularly a dramatic story in the UK. Let's go and

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Speaker 1: put this piece up on the screen. You've got the

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Speaker 1: Bank of England saying they won't hesitate to hike rates

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Speaker 1: because they are very nearly in crisis after the pound

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Speaker 1: fell to a historic low against the dollar. Now they

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Speaker 1: have something that is a little bit different going on there,

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Speaker 1: because not only do they have the impact of our

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Speaker 1: Federal Reserve Bank hiking rates, but their issue seems to

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Speaker 1: be more directly related to the domestic political situation there,

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Speaker 1: which is that the new Prime minister announced this massive

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Speaker 1: package of tax cuts, largely for the rich and for corporations,

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Speaker 1: including such populist moves as lifting the cap on banker bonuses.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like what the UK needs. It really is a

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Speaker 1: total throwback kind of policy. I mean, it's quite astonishing

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Speaker 1: when you read the details here. But I think Liz

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Speaker 1: Trust kind of expected the market to be like, yay,

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Speaker 1: tax cuts, and there was instead essentially a meltdown because

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Speaker 1: they worried so much about the financial position of the

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Speaker 1: country with you know, taking so much revenue out of

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Speaker 1: the budget with these huge tax cuts. So that's a

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Speaker 1: big part of the story of why they're having such

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Speaker 1: an issue, right Yeah, And actually it's going to have

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Speaker 1: major problems for them on inflation because part of the

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Speaker 1: thing is that a strong pound made it so that

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Speaker 1: imports were less expensive. Whenever the pound is cheaper in

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Speaker 1: regard to the dollar than the imports become more expensive,

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Speaker 1: which means that British companies are going to have to

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Speaker 1: raise prices to compensate for higher costs, which puts pressure

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Speaker 1: on inflation, which is already at the forty year high

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Speaker 1: in Britain. So yeah, they have some serious economic troubles.

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Speaker 1: It's related, like you said, to the fiscal policy. But

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Speaker 1: the fact is is that all currencies globally are having

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Speaker 1: problems with regards to the dollar and the strong dollar

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Speaker 1: as it is, it is not necessarily This is why

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Speaker 1: it's complicated. For a harm Ow perspective, not a bad

430
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: thing because it makes it importance, well, it makes it.

431
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: It helps us with inflation. And it's no accent that

432
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 1: even as inflation continues to bite here, we actually have

433
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: low inflation compared to a lot of other nations because

434
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: the strong dollar means when we are importing goods for us,

435
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: they're lower cheaper for us, and that helps keep our

436
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: own inflation in check. The risk is that you have

437
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: blowback from you know, it relates very much to the

438
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 1: monologue you gave yesterday's soccer about how when you have

439
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: countries where their population is stressed out because of food

440
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: prices or fuel prices, or housing prices or whatever it is,

441
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: you are more likely to have a lot of instability,

442
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: a lot of chaos. And you know, these things don't

443
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: just stay in one place. If you have you know,

444
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 1: if you have a country collapse and you have massive

445
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: migrant flows. Guess what, that can really have a big

446
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: impact on your politics and your economy and everything else

447
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: here at home. And because the economy is so interconnected,

448
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 1: you know, the problems over and other places don't necessarily

449
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: stay in those places. So it is a complicated story.

450
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: Liz Trust is a fool in my opinion. She really

451
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: is coming back, they full back to Thatcher, and she

452
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 1: just misunderstands like the European moment. If you look at

453
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: what just happened in Italy, Sweden, what's happening in the

454
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: Czech Republic, Slovakia, everything we've pointed to, it's clear what's

455
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: going on. You have major economic stress and that is

456
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 1: leading to like massive social turmoil. She's instead just pivoting

457
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: back to like Thatcher, right. I believe it's the first

458
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: tax cut in the U case, it's nineteen seventy two,

459
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: and at the same time has forty year high inflation

460
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: and also what a massive energy prices which are a

461
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: result of a foreign conflict. So she's digging down to

462
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: kind of like to what she was raised in. I guess,

463
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: but there's no real answer. Seeing ross Dout that talk

464
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: about this yesterday. She is setting the stage for probably

465
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: an eventual labor victory and then for the rerise of

466
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: UKIP style populism which led to Brexit, and that's going

467
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: to leave the content the island in chaos for no reason.

468
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 1: Whenever she could just be like a forward looking thinker

469
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: and instead it's like we've seen a reversion past the

470
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: gains that I thought we had seen with Teresa May

471
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 1: and with Boris Johnson's governments. I mean, I cannot imagine

472
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: anything more tone deaf than lifting the cap on banker bonus.

473
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: Energy prices are so high for like small businesses and

474
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: pubs in the UK, which are all needing either closing

475
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: or on the verge of laying people off. Like you

476
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: found this yesterday. This underscore is like how tone deaf

477
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: this is put us up there, which is that in

478
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: the UK most people's mortgages reset every two to five years,

479
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: So that means one point four million homeowners in Britain

480
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: are soon going to see a acsive monthly payment spike,

481
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: which they did not expect at all. Crystal, I don't

482
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 1: really know why fixed rate mortgages zone exist in the UK.

483
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: That's an interesting question kind of in its own, right,

484
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: But that's just the system that they have over there.

485
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: So when you have a reset every two to five years, well,

486
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody thinks that rates are going to

487
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: come down two years from now. That means a huge

488
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: portion of the UK public is about to pay a

489
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: ton more in mortgages and in energy costs to heat

490
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: set homes. Like the fixed costs that these people have

491
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 1: are going to go up by like twenty thirty percent.

492
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: That's crazy when you also consider, I mean, think about

493
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: how much of their income already goes to taxes, So

494
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: like their disposable income just took a huge haircut for

495
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: events that are totally out of their control right up

496
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: to the government. And the answer from the government is,

497
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: how about we cut taxes for the wealthy? How love that?

498
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: Would that help you out? That feels good? So crazy,

499
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Let's make sure those bankers are getting what they deserve.

500
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm all right, it really is wild. I mean when

501
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: I dug into the details of yesterday, I was actually

502
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: shocked because it did feel like such a throwback. I mean,

503
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: then again, it's not all that different from what Trump

504
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: did when he was in office with the Paul Ryan

505
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: Suite of tax cuts, but it is pretty wild to

506
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: look at, and you know, you've had markets that are

507
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: really in turmoil around the world, and typically, you know,

508
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: usually in any country, there's sort of like a double

509
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: edged stort, like when their currency is strong, it's good

510
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: for some groups and bad for other groups, and when

511
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: it's weak, it's you know, vice versa. Typically, when you

512
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: have currency is weak, you can sort of offset the

513
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: problem because, oh then your exports are more in demand

514
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 1: because they're comparatively inexpensive, and so you can sort of

515
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: like make up for it by shipping more goods around

516
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: the world. But because you have either recession or mounting

517
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: fears of recession in a lot of quarters of the globe,

518
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: you also have decreased demand in a lot of places.

519
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: So that's not really helping them out at this point.

520
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: So in any case, it's just another sort of sign

521
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: of the procarity of the global financial system and of

522
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, with a lot of potential ramifications for our

523
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: own economy here at home. And I'm going to take

524
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: a look at more of that in my monologue today,

525
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: and a lot of new signs that the FED policy

526
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: is really going too far, too fast and could cause

527
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: a severe recession here at home, so we're going to

528
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: take a look at that as well. Joining us now

529
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: is great friend, very special friend, the original friend, perhaps

530
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: the best friend of the show. Glenn Greenwald. It's great

531
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: to see you, sir. Thank you very much for joining us. Yeah,

532
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: thank you. I accept all of those titles. I think

533
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: they're all appropriate, and I appreciate the immogation. Well to

534
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: see your face and be the subject of your mockery again, Glenn,

535
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: always real us. It's it's been far, far too long.

536
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: One of the reasons we wanted to talk to you, Glenn.

537
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: On top of just checking in in general, let's put

538
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 1: this up there on the screen. President Putin yesterday granted

539
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: Russian citizenship to Edward Snowden. Now, there's been a lot

540
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: made of this by the US media as some evidence

541
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: that snowed In himself is like further a trader, as

542
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: if he himself should be pushed to the front line

543
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: by Putin. What did you make of this move? And

544
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: then the general treatment by the Western media of this

545
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: obvious stunt by Putin. So, first of all, just look

546
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 1: at the framing of this, Like Putin grants citizenship to Snowden,

547
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: This happens all the time. Whenever the US media wants

548
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: you to hate a particular country, they start personalizing everything

549
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: to the leader. When we wanted to invade a Rockets,

550
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: he's being rock did this, Rock did that? Everything was

551
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: Saddam did the same. With the war in Yugoslavia, it

552
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: was no longer Serbia does this, it was Melosovich does this.

553
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: They always personalize it on a particular leader, as though

554
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: now Putin is sitting in the immigration office as an

555
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: immigration clerk reviewing Snowden's application for citizenship and stamping it approved.

556
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: Of course, it's done in the name of Putin. So

557
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: many documents are signed by Joe Biden that he wouldn't

558
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: have the capability to even read, let alone analyze and process.

559
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: But that's already the framing. Snowden has lived in Russia

560
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: for nine years now. He lives there with his American wife,

561
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: and they're too young tog and the reason they're there,

562
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: of course, is because the US government has made clear

563
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: that if he steps one inch outside of Russia, they

564
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: will arrest him and prosecute him and imprison him for

565
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: the rest of his life under the Espionage Act of

566
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen. So all this is is the natural byproduct

567
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: of living in a country for a long enough time.

568
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: I've lived in Brazil seventeen years. I'm eligible for citizenship

569
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: with my family. And yet the American media tried to

570
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: depict this as some cunning move on the part of

571
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: Putin and wors some sinister evidence that it means Snowden

572
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: all along was a Russian spy. I want to pick

573
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: back up on snone, but first I actually want to

574
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: ask you more about that point about like personalizing the governments,

575
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: because I think that's interesting because I actually try to

576
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: when we're covering Russia talk about the Krumlin or talk

577
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: about Putin versus Russia as a whole, because when you're

578
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: dealing with the basically authoritarian system, I sort of want

579
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: to intentionally separate, separate out the ordinary citizens who may

580
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: or may not support what's going on, or may or

581
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: may not understand what's going on, versus leadership, like the

582
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: elites who are actually, you know, running the show. Do

583
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: you think there's an argument for that or like how

584
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: do you see those things in the language there and

585
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: its importance? Yeah, I mean, for sure, Russia is an

586
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: authoritarian and an autocratic regime. A lot of countries in

587
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: the world are, but it's also a complex country of

588
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: seventy million people or so. It has all kinds of

589
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: different power centers and factions and competing interests. The same

590
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: is true. You know of almost any country that you

591
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: talk about where there's this extremely exaggerated attempt to depict

592
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: it as this like totalitarian regime, when maybe North Korea

593
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: and a handful of other small countries really are appropriately

594
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: characterized that way. There's all kinds of interest in Russia,

595
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: there's lots of divided public opinions. Putin does have a

596
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: lot of support, as does the war in Ukraine. Maybe

597
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: that's because of a propagandized media. Surely that is part

598
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: of it. But I think it's just so overly simplified

599
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: the way that the Western media ends up talking about

600
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: the countries that we're supposed to hate. Yeah, I think

601
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: that's true, very important. I wanted to get your response

602
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: to what Snowden himself tweeted. In response. He said, after

603
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: years of separation from our parents, my wife and I

604
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: have no desire to be separated from our sons. After

605
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: two years of waiting, nearly ten years of exile, a

606
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: little stability will make a difference for my family. I

607
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: pray for privacy for them and for us all I mean,

608
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: I think this is the key point in Crystal is.

609
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: Let's go back and just remember because before this obsession

610
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: with Russia completely consumed American discourse in twenty fourteen, every

611
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: major media outlet fought to publish and report on the

612
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: Snowden documents, and virtually every major media outlet throughout the

613
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: West did so. Obviously the Guardian in the Washington Post

614
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: when a pullets are for it, but the New York

615
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: Times fought for those documents. I remember getting badgered by

616
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: all their reporters for access to the archive. Globo and Brazil,

617
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: Lamond in France, Elmundo in Spain. All over the Western world,

618
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: people were competing to be able to report these documents

619
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: because they revealed an incredibly newsworthy story, which was especially

620
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: here in the United States. Many of the spying programs

621
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: that were instituted that were on terror then and then

622
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: increased radically under the Obama administration were found by courts

623
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: to be unconstitutional and illegal. So what American would be

624
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: so surf like in their mentality as to believe that

625
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: that's not a positive thing. And yet in response to that,

626
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: the US government has done nothing but try to imprison

627
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: Snowden for eight years. And as he says, he has

628
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: a family, an American wife, American children. He's always said

629
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 1: he wanted to come back to the United States, and

630
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: so yes, he does need stability because he can't leave

631
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: that country, and citizenship is a way that gives him

632
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: and his family that stability into trying to depict it

633
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: as something nefarious on his part, when in reality, de

634
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: fault lies with the Obama administration that went after whistleblowers

635
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: using this one hundred year old repressive statute more than

636
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: any other administration in history. I think is really misguided.

637
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: And Glenn, when you pointed out on the Washington Post,

638
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: which I thought was completely crazy, was that they described

639
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: Snowden as just an intelligence leaker, which was floated by

640
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: Matt Taibi, but also described him as quote who considers

641
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: himself a whistleblower. And as he pointed out that, it's

642
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: especially weird because they shared that Pulitzer Prize for helping

643
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: report on some of the Snowden documents at the time

644
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: and considered it worthy not that long ago in twenty fourteen.

645
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: I mean, the Washington Post could not keep enough praise

646
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: on themselves and their courage for the work they did

647
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: on Snowden documents, when in reality, the Washington Post was

648
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: too scared to even allow the reporters to go visit

649
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: Snowden in Hong Kong the way more a poortress than

650
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: I did. The story kind of fell into their lap.

651
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: He never chose to work with them, but they exploited

652
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: those documents to their benefit. And the amazing thing is

653
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: Sager too. Years afterward, when the New York Times was

654
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: calling for Snowden to be pardon, the Washington Post editorialized

655
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: against a pardon for their own source, advocating of their

656
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: own source be in prison, and their argument was that

657
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: Snowden's documents weren't just about domestic spying, but also spying

658
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: in other countries. But let's remember, all of the choices

659
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: that were made about which Snowden documents would be concealed

660
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: and which ones would be published weren't made by Snowden,

661
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: but were made by the newspapers with whom he worked.

662
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: And the Washington Post did more than any other media outlet,

663
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: way more than I did, in publishing documents about how

664
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: the US is spying another countries. So it was they

665
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: who revealed those secrets, not Snowden, and then turned around

666
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: and used their own behavior as a way of arguing

667
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: that he shouldn't get a pardon. Where do you think

668
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: that this ideological positioning of the Washington Post comes from?

669
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: Does it represent a break with past traditions or a

670
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: continuation of a long tradition that perhaps was temporarily broken

671
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: so that they could bask in the linline of prizes

672
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: from reporting on the Stain documents. So I've never been

673
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: somebody who thought that the corporate media is quote unquote liberal,

674
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: nor did I ever think they were conservative. I believe

675
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: the ideology of the corporate media is pro establishment, and

676
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: in particular, they're particularly deferential when it comes to the

677
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: US security state and all the stories that we've seen

678
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: over the last twenty years that receive so much criticism,

679
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: from the Iraq War to Russia Gate to the two

680
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: thousand and eight financial crisis. We're all about these media

681
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: outlets being completely subservient to ruling elite power centers. And

682
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: the reason why media outlets dislike Snowden and Assonge and

683
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: so many people like them, even though those people are

684
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: the ones enabling journalists to do the job they claim

685
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: they're there to do. Is because their sources inside the

686
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: CIA and the FBI and the Justice Department in the

687
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: White House hates Snowden massage and therefore they just reflect

688
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: reflexively those same bias. Is that is what these media

689
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: outlets are for, right, And I mean, what's the future

690
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: here for Snowden? And just by the Biden administration, I

691
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: saw I don't know if he saw this yesterday, Glenn,

692
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: but the White House referred all questions on Swine citizen

693
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: to the DOJ, indicating that the prosecution, the current policy

694
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: continues under this administration, which was considered i mean extreme

695
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: even at the time under the Obama administration when they

696
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: were also in charge. You know, let me just use

697
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: your question, Stargar to make two points that are actually related.

698
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: One is that this whole idea of Snowden being in

699
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: Russia and the way they used that to suggest he

700
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: was a Russian spy. Let's remember that he didn't choose

701
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: in the first instance to go to Moscow. He went

702
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: to Hong Kong, and he was there when he contacted us.

703
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 1: And at the time, you can go back and read

704
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: the same stories from the same outlets. We're accusing him

705
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: of being a Chinese spy. Why if he were a

706
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: Russian spy, would he have gone and to Hong Kong

707
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: and called us there instead of to Moscow in the

708
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: first instance. But the more important point is when he

709
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 1: left Hong Kong, he was trying to get everybody knows

710
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 1: to Ecuador and Bolivia, where he was going to ask

711
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: for and receive asylum the way. Ecuador had given asylum

712
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: to a songe and he had to transit through Moscow

713
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 1: on his way to Havana, and the Obama administration, led

714
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: by Joe Biden, did everything possible to block him from

715
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 1: leaving Moscow. Ben Rhoades Boasted bragged in his own book

716
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: about he called the Cubans and said, if you want

717
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: us to let this embargo, if you want to have

718
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: better relations with us, you better not do anything to

719
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: help Edward Snowden get out of Moscow, because if you do,

720
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: there'll be no political space to do it. The reason

721
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: he's in Russia isn't because he chose to be. It's

722
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: because the Obama administration forced him to be precisely said

723
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: that they could turn around and get morons to think, oh, well,

724
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 1: if he's in Russia, he must be a Kremlin spy.

725
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: And that is the problem. Is it was the Trump

726
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: administration considering actively pardoning snowed In. I think it was

727
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: one of Trump's more cowardly moves not to have done that.

728
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: The reason he didn't was because the second impeachment trial

729
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: was hanging over his head and Marco Rubio and Lindsay

730
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: Graham made clear and Mitch McConnell, if you pardon Snowden,

731
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: we're going to vote for your own impeachment. But he didn't.

732
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: And now the Biden administration was a part of the

733
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: Obama administration, is continuing this repressive attack on whistleblowers that

734
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: led to Noted not being able to come back to

735
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: the United States in the first place. Yep, I had

736
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: never heard that before, Glenn, that there was a threat

737
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: from Rubio and Graham and some of the more like

738
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: hawkish pro security state Republicans to potentially vote to convict

739
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: Trump in that impeachment hearing over Snowden. Is there just

740
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: explain that a little bit more to me, because that's

741
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: a new piece of information for me. Yeah, So, you know,

742
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: obviously I was somebody who was working very actively, both

743
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: publicly advocating but also in private doing everything it could

744
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: to secure a part in for both as Songe and Snowden,

745
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: snowed In being my sores and as Songe being someone

746
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: I regarded as heroic. And there there was real movement

747
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: inside the Trump administration to give particularly Snowden a pardon.

748
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: It came much closer to Snowden than they did to Assange.

749
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: And if you think about it, why would they have

750
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: initiated an impeachment proceeding against a president who within a

751
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 1: couple of weeks was on his way out. And the reason, Crystal,

752
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: was that they were very afraid that on his way out,

753
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: Trump was going to do a bunch of stuff, including

754
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: not just giving pardons to Snowden and Orsange, but also

755
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: declassify all kinds of documents he had been threatening to

756
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: declassify about the CIA, about the Kennedy assassination. And the

757
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: only leverage they had against Trump doing what they considered

758
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: crazy stuff on his way out was the second impeachment trial,

759
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: and they explicitly communicated to Trump multiple Republican kind of

760
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: hawk as senators did that if you do what we know,

761
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: you're thinking about doing what Ram Paul and Matt Gates

762
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: and others were encouraging him to do, which was part

763
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: in Snowden, that will severely jeopardize your chances of getting

764
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: out of this impeachment trial with an acquittal. And that

765
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: was the kind of sword of Damocles hanging over his

766
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: head during that transition. Does that relate to the documents

767
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: that he then takes tomorrow lago? Because there's some reporting

768
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: that the documents that he took there were you know,

769
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: related to Russiagate. They were things that you know, he

770
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: had flirted with declassifying before but didn't for whatever reason.

771
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: Do you know if there's a connect there. What I

772
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: know for sure is that Trump was threatening to declassify

773
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: all those documents were geting to Russigate because Trump believes,

774
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: I think with a lot of validity, that there were

775
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: crimes committed, or at least ethical transgressions committed during the

776
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election to create and manufacture Rushigate. It came

777
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: out of the CIA, And I don't know exactly which

778
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,959
Speaker 1: documents he took. Nobody really knows exactly which documents he took,

779
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: but it certainly seems to align with everything I knew

780
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: at the time, which was that Trump wanted those documents public,

781
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: had the power to declassify them, and now his defenses

782
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: that he did. I'm not saying that those were the

783
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: only documents he took. He probably took a bunch. Being

784
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: Trump just kind of did it all recklessly. But I

785
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: would think there's certainly a relationship between his belief that

786
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: documents were being hidden that should be seen and his

787
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: decision to remove a lot of documents out of the

788
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: White House tomorrow. Larger. Yeah, that corresponds with some of

789
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: the reporting that Ken Clippenstein, for example, has been doing. Well.

790
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: We covered a lot more ground than I even't expected

791
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: us to get to a lot of interishing revelations there.

792
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: Glennon's I'm genuinely great to see you. Thank you too much. Sure,

793
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, I congrat send your success. Always have

794
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: me to come back anytime. Absolutely, thanks very much, do

795
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: you guys. As you guys know, Hurricane Ian slammed into

796
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: Florida's southwestern coast yesterday. It was a category for hurricane

797
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: what it made landfall, So go ahead and put this

798
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: first piece from the AP up on the screen. They say,

799
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: Ian makes landfall in southwest Florida as a category store form.

800
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: This is one of the most powerful storms ever recorded

801
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: in the US. Swamped southwest Florida on Wednesday, turning streets

802
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: into rivers, knocking out power. The number they have here

803
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: is one point eight million. This morning, it is over

804
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: two million Floridians without power and threat threatening catastrophic damage

805
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: for their inland. You know the thing with Ian, which

806
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: is strength. That landfall tied it for the fifth strongest

807
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: hurricane when measured by windspeed to strike the US. I mean,

808
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: this is an incredibly strong storm. And the thing that

809
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: made this so difficult to deal with is it was strong.

810
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: It was huge size wise. You're talking about an I

811
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: and actually I think we have an image we can

812
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: show here an I that was forty miles across crazy.

813
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: I heard yesterday on the Weather Channel they said for

814
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty miles. You were talking about tropical

815
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: storm force winds. That's how gigantic this thing was. And

816
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 1: then you were also talking about a huge amount of rain,

817
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: partly because it was also very slow moving, so places

818
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: in Florida getting a foot of rain dumped on them.

819
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 1: You can imagine the issues in terms of flooding that

820
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: you're ultimately going to have. We do have some images

821
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: here that we can show you from yesterday as this

822
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: was making landfall. I believe this is from Fort Myers.

823
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: You can see I mean, you can see the wind,

824
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: you can see the trees just whipping there, and then

825
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: massive flood waters just surging all around. So that was

826
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: the scene in Fort Myers. You also had you know,

827
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: weather channels. Jim Canty, Let's go ahead and put this

828
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: one up. He's out there trying to report and getting

829
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: blown back by this wind. He actually gets hit by

830
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: a tree branch that you know, hits him down in

831
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: the legs that he appears to be fine. He's sort

832
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: of stumbling around trying to grab onto a sign to

833
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: keep his footing. I mean, this is what this man

834
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: is famous for. This is what he does for a living.

835
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you it would not be a

836
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: position that I would want to be. And you can

837
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: see there just how strong those those winds were. Ultimately,

838
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: and then the other piece of this that Sager was

839
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: pointing out yesterday is, you know, everybody knew this storm

840
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: was coming. There were a lot of areas that were

841
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: told to evacuate. You still have Floridians this morning that

842
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: are now subject to it's been downgraded to a tropical storm,

843
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: that are trying to flee. But Sager, you heard this

844
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: on CBS News that many are riding out the storm

845
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 1: just they can't afford it because of how high gas

846
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: prices arell is horrible and actually so what the newscasters said,

847
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: By the way, I wasn't intentionally watching CBS. For some reason,

848
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: my TV if I turn it on ces CBS, it

849
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: turns on. Blame Samsung, not me. Listen in these like yeah, storm,

850
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: they are these are the things that they actually do well, right, So,

851
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: but people were like why are you. I'm like, I'm not,

852
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: I just happened to turn on my television and defaults

853
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: to CBS. Here's what he was saying, which is that

854
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: the price of gas being so high and also the

855
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: price of travel, most people who wanted to flee or sorry,

856
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: a lot many of the people who stayed a lot

857
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: of them just could not afford to actually go. And

858
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 1: the reason why this, you know this really so grim.

859
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 1: Motel prices were very high. A lot of them couldn't

860
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: afford shelter. You need to afford food for I mean,

861
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: do you ask yourself, can you afford two straight weeks

862
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: of eating out like elsewhere? Do not? A lot of

863
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: people have relatives who are necessarily within the area. This

864
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: is why most personal financial advisors like you should always

865
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: have like two weeks or whatever of expenses. But the

866
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: truth is we know that you know the most. I

867
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: think the average American cannot even afford a financial crisis

868
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: of five hundred dollars like aka quote unquote blown tire

869
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: away from bankruptcy. So this is exactly I mean, many

870
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: much many more than that, considering the scale, considering how

871
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: much people charge, like gas shortages as well. So he

872
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: was specifically referring to the price of gas. And it

873
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: just really struck me as like what a tragedy, because

874
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: I remember that that happened in uh Katrina in New

875
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: Orleans that everyone you know was going after them, like

876
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: why didn't they flee? It's like, well, where are they

877
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: supposed to go? You know, and it's like, well, you

878
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: really want to go to the Thunderdome. And you know,

879
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: we saw here too, some of the shelters were filling

880
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: up and all of that. I also talked to a

881
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: local reporter who was down there. Actually he said something

882
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: even sadder, which is that some people just didn't believe

883
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: that it was going to be that bad. Yeah, this

884
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: always happens. I don't know where it comes from. It's like,

885
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't you rather if you have the money, would you

886
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: not rather say air on the side of caution. They

887
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: were like, yeah, it'll just be like irma, It'll be

888
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: like Charlie, it'll be fine. I mean, you saw that

889
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: picture of Fort Fort Myers is like, had what like

890
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: twelve feet storm storm was insane. I saw sure there

891
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: was a I don't know if it's real. I hope

892
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: it was real of a shark literally swimming. I don't know.

893
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: I never want to say if it's really not because

894
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: I've been duped by the shark photo. Yeah, aka Sharknado

895
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: is real. It's a joke, but it was in dispute regardless,

896
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: there clearly was twelve feet of water in the streets

897
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: of Fort Myers. And I was telling you, you know,

898
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: one of my good friends actually just bought a house

899
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: in the Tampa area. They have forty inches of rain

900
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: in twenty four hours. He has no idea how his

901
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: house is. I'm being terrible. That is insane, absolutely insane.

902
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: And you know it's still it's now downgraded to a

903
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: tropical storm. This is still very dangerous though. I mean

904
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: that means really high winds and the water, I think

905
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: is the part that continues to be a real concern

906
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: for now. It's going to move out to hit Georgia

907
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: and the Carolinas before the track they have it on

908
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: now has it sort of moving inland towards Appalachias, the

909
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: direct the last storm track that I saw at least,

910
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm just thinking about everybody in Florida. I

911
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: think just this morning we'll be getting more images and

912
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: more of a sense of what the damage in the

913
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: devastation looks like. This could very possibly be one of

914
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: the most expensive storm cleanups, and we just hope everybody

915
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 1: escape with their lives because the water and the flooding

916
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: was truly catastrophic and across such a wide swath of

917
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: this state. I mean, there's hardly a part of the

918
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 1: state that ultimately wasn't impacted just because of the massive

919
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: size of the storm. And we're all going to get

920
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 1: a wash out here in the DCA at the entire

921
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: eastern seaboard not nearly as bad. I'm just saying, like

922
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: it's going to rain now for the next like four days, right.

923
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: I mean that's just again a sense of how large

924
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: this storm ultimately was. So it really packed to punch

925
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: in terms of its strength, how fat like, how fast

926
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: and hard the winds were, how large it was, the

927
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: amount of rain, and then on top of everything, super

928
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: slow moving so people were just getting hit and hit

929
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: and hit for hours and hours. Yeah, all right, so

930
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: we have an update on the Biden student loan debt relief.

931
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 1: We have the first lawsuit legal challenge, which is something

932
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: that Republicans have been telegraphing they wanted to move forward with.

933
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: I think it's a like a libertarian aligned law firm

934
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: that has filed this first suit. Let's go ahead and

935
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: put this up on the screen. Robbie Suavee, I think,

936
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: was among the journalists who broke this news over a reason.

937
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 1: The headline here is flagrantly a legal law firm filed

938
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: lawsuit to stop Biden's student loan forgiveness. So let me

939
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: break down some of the details here and I'll try

940
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: to keep it out of the weeds. But you know,

941
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: ultimately there's a real question of over the legality of

942
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: this program, in part because of what, in my opinion,

943
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: was the foolish way that this was drafted and the

944
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: legal justifiction that the administration is done. I'm also not

945
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: so foolish as to believe that the courts are anything

946
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 1: other than basically partisan at this point. The Supreme Court,

947
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: if this ends up in front of the Supreme Court,

948
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: would be very likely to look askance at anything the

949
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: Biden administration was doing here and look favorably on the

950
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: conservative argument. So I think in terms of like the

951
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: ultimate case against this, that's sort of the least of

952
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: their issues. The problem has always been finding someone who

953
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 1: quote has standing to sue, because you have to show

954
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: that you have been injured by the law in order

955
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: for a court to assess that you have standing and

956
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: that you know you can be the plaintiff that ultimately files.

957
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: So this conservative group libertarian group thought they found someone

958
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 1: because of the peculiar like details of Indiana tax law.

959
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: You have this guy, his name is Frank Garrison, and

960
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: he actually was receiving debt relief already under a different

961
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: loan forgiveness program, the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, and

962
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: under his in the state where he lives. Under the

963
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: tax law there that loan forgiveness is not taxable, so

964
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,479
Speaker 1: it's not like he's getting money. They're just they just say, Okay,

965
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: it's wipe, Colleen. You don't have to pay taxes on it.

966
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: You're all good. However, the Biden loan forgiveness, which he

967
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: would now be eligible for, would be taxable, so he

968
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: would have he would take a tax hit because of

969
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: the Biden student loan program. Again because of the intricacies

970
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: of this state law. So that's why they're saying this

971
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: individual was injured because he wasn't going to have to

972
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: pay these taxes, and now he is going to have

973
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: to pay these taxes. However, there is a new filing

974
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: from the government this morning or I think yesterday, actually

975
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: this came in that basically points your provision, which says,

976
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: no problem. If you want to opt out of the

977
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: Biden loan forgiveness, then you can, and and they go

978
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: on to say that actually, upon receiving the lawsuit and

979
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: receiving plaintiff's filings, the Department has already taken steps to

980
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: effectuate plaintiffs clearly state a desire to opt out of

981
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 1: the program and not receive twenty thousand dollars in automatic

982
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: cancelation of his federal student loan debt and so notified

983
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: plaintiff's council today. So they're basically saying, like, you don't.

984
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: You are not automatically in this thing. You can easily

985
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: opt out of it, and we are already because you

986
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: stated that you want to opt out, We're already opting

987
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: you out. So guess what, no injury anymore. So just

988
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: to wrap it all up, because I know that was

989
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: a little bit complex, this guy was saying basically like,

990
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to pay taxes that I didn't have

991
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: to pay because I mean put in this program. I

992
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: don't even want to be put in this program. And

993
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: the government came back and pointed to a specific provision

994
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: that says, actually, you can opt out, and we have

995
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: opted you out, so you're no longer injured. Yes, so

996
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: he may not have standing, but I think what the

997
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: reason why we'recovering it is just shows you is that

998
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: this is just the first of many. I mean, you

999
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: have to remember Obamacare and some of the other policies

1000
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: in that time. They hunted around for the best possible

1001
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: plaintiff in order to bring the case. So I think

1002
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: this is probably so the first of many in order

1003
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: to bring places against student debt. But this is the

1004
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: challenge for this is finding someone who can actually claim injury. Yeah,

1005
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: probably need the processor, right at the end of the day,

1006
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: it has to be one of the processing companies themselves

1007
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,959
Speaker 1: to say that they were built out of x amount

1008
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: of revenue from not being able to process the debt.

1009
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, yeah, But from what I've said, from what

1010
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: I have read, the issue is a lot of those

1011
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: people don't want to piss off the governments, right, they

1012
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: don't want to write. You'd have to find one that

1013
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: was like very ideological, yes, that was willing to basically

1014
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: risk their business in order to be the plaintiff here.

1015
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: So you know, again, like obviously I support the student

1016
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: loan debt relief. From what I've read, I don't think

1017
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: that the legal justifications they put forward were the best ones,

1018
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: or that they're going about this in a particularly intelligent way.

1019
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: I think it is vulnerable to a court challenge because

1020
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: of the conservative makeup of the Supreme Court and how

1021
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: partisan they are at this point. But yeah, the challenge

1022
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: is going to be finding that person who's willing to

1023
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: be the plaintiff, who actually can claim that they were

1024
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 1: injured by the student loan debt relief. And you know,

1025
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: from looking at these filings, it seems to me like

1026
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: this person is probably not gonna pass muster. Yeah, I

1027
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: think you're right, and this we're going to keep a

1028
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: very close eye on this. And this is also always

1029
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 1: the problem by legislative by executive order, if you're going

1030
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: to claimed like the pandemic or whatever as your justification.

1031
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: They actually there were several other things that they could

1032
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: have used to try and do it. That's exactly like

1033
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: the Hero's Act of two thousand and three. There's a

1034
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: couple of other things is what they used ultimately, but

1035
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: there are many other ones legal justifications probably would have

1036
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: put them on better ground your footing. What I've heard

1037
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: is this goes down probably seven to two at the

1038
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: Supreme Court if the right plaintiff brings it, which you know,

1039
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: and that means even one legal level justice is likely

1040
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: a crossover. Yeah, well, and that'll be I mean when

1041
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: that if that happens ultimately, if they're able to find

1042
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: someone with standing, and you know, I would believe that

1043
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: it would get struck down by the Supreme Court, because again,

1044
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not even going to particularly care about

1045
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: the legal details, because I just think the court is

1046
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: so partisan at this point. But that would I think

1047
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: there could be a massive public reaction when you have

1048
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: people who have already benefited from this policy and had

1049
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: their debts, you know, erased or nearly a race. You're

1050
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: talking about forty three million people benefiting from it, and

1051
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: then if it gets pulled back, that would I think

1052
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: there'd be quite a reaction to that, certainly. Well, we

1053
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: should also remember, really material that har chance to put

1054
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: it in reconciliation and they didn't do it. You know,

1055
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: specific Democratic senators are also the ones who killed it.

1056
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, yeah, we won't let that im off the

1057
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: hook for sure. Joining us now, Richard Reeves. He's a

1058
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: senior fellow with the Brookings Institute and is the author

1059
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 1: of a very interesting new book of Boys and Men,

1060
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why it matters, and

1061
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: what to do about it. Richard, thank you so much

1062
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thank you for

1063
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: having me on. He's also the author of great book

1064
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: Dream Orders. We were just talking about that phenomenal book.

1065
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: I highly recommend well have links down in the description

1066
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: for you. Guys to go ahead and buy it. So Richard,

1067
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: first of all, why did you decide to write this book,

1068
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: and what were the social kind of impetus and why

1069
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: you thought it was important to society to have this conversation. Well,

1070
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: the first thing to say is, I've raised three boys

1071
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: myself to adult one, and I think all scholarship is

1072
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: a little bit autobiographical, whether wed or not. My last book,

1073
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: Dream Hoarders, is partly about the experience of being in

1074
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: the American upper middle class. This is the experience of

1075
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: raising boys. But actually in my day job, so I'm

1076
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: worried about boys at night because I've got three. But

1077
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 1: in my day job, as I was working on issues

1078
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: of inequality and education and employment in the family, I

1079
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: just kept running across this gender gap, and not the

1080
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: way you'd expect to see it. You kept seeing ways

1081
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: in which it was boys and men who are really struggling.

1082
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: To be clear, it's mostly working class boys and men,

1083
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: Black boys and men. It's typically not the dream hoarders,

1084
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: it's not the upper middle class. But I don't think

1085
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: we can understand inequality in the US without understanding what's

1086
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: happening to boys and men. I also felt Frankly, there

1087
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 1: was a bit of a gap because both sides politically

1088
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: are so dug in in the culture wars around issues

1089
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: of sex and gender. That's it's even hard to have

1090
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: a book with that title without getting a reaction from yeah.

1091
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: And so I almost felt like, as a Brookings scholar,

1092
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: given the work I've done, that trying to create a

1093
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: better conversation, we need a better conversation about rescripting masculinity

1094
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: than we're currently getting, and this book is my attempt

1095
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,399
Speaker 1: to do that. Fascinating. So part of why you get

1096
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: that pushback is because when we look around at society,

1097
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: you say, all right, look at the US Congress, still

1098
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly male. We've still only had men as presidents. You

1099
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,839
Speaker 1: look at the CEOs, They're like, there's some stat there's

1100
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: like more CEOs named Bob than there are female CEOs,

1101
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: or something like that. I think you've talked about, you know,

1102
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 1: venture capital and how what a small proportion of that

1103
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: goes to female founders. So when you look at those

1104
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: things and then you're like, yeah, but the real problem

1105
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: with is with men, I can imagine why people are like, well,

1106
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: wait a second, it seems like the issue is on

1107
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: the other side. So how do you sort of square

1108
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 1: that circle? Yeah, well it depends where you're looking. Yeah,

1109
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: if you're looking around the apex of society and you're

1110
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: looking at those sorts of institutions, then clearly there's much

1111
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: further to go. And I've written about the need to

1112
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: get more women into into Congress. The US is a

1113
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: real laggart on that front, and for not having a

1114
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: female president yet because you can probably tell I come

1115
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: from the UK and we're in our third female product.

1116
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to be working outside having back another day. Yes,

1117
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: but the point was like it was just no big

1118
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: deal and so and you're right. In Fortune five hundred companies,

1119
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: only forty four of them are led by women right now. Now,

1120
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: go back twenty years and it was zero. So that's

1121
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: forty four more than it used to be. But it's very,

1122
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: very far from parity. But if you look down, if

1123
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: we look down at what's happening the rest of society,

1124
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: most American men today earn less than most American did

1125
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: American men did in nineteen seventy nine. Yes, there's a

1126
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: huge gender gap in education. Men are three times more

1127
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: likely to die from a death of despair from alcohol, suicide,

1128
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: drug overdose. And so the trouble is that people who

1129
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: are just living in these elite circles look around and

1130
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: go on, I don't see it. Well, partly, it might

1131
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: be there and you're not seeing it. Also, just look

1132
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: down look at the rest of society. We've seen such

1133
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: a big increase in economic inequality that we have to

1134
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: think about both those things at once. And partly this

1135
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: book is a challenge to say, can we think two

1136
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: things at once? Can we think there's much more to

1137
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: do for women in certain sectors of society, But now

1138
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: we also need to look at boys and men. And

1139
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: right now it's proving very difficult to have that conversation.

1140
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: Even breaking into that paradigm is just so tremendously hard.

1141
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: As you said, without getting coded, you know, right wing.

1142
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: I've almost frankly given up. So I admire you for

1143
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: being able to try to fight a good fight. Point

1144
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: to some of the important data that you're saying there

1145
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: about the lifespan, about overall earnings, about deaths of despair,

1146
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: and why should women care about it? Why should women

1147
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: care about how men are doing a society? Yeah, So

1148
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: in education, I think just to put a few data

1149
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: points on it. We've long worried about gender and equality

1150
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: and education, but it's typically been worrying about getting girls

1151
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: and women to catch up with boys and men. And

1152
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: so in nineteen seventy two, the US passed the famous

1153
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: Title nine legislation to try and get more girls and

1154
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: women into college in particular. And at that point, men

1155
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: are about thirteen percentage points more likely get a college

1156
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: degree than women. Today, it's fifteen percentage points more likely

1157
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: that a woman will get it than a man. Wow,

1158
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: So the gender gap is actually bigger in college education

1159
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: today than when Title nine was passed. It's just the

1160
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: other way around. It's flipped. If we look at high

1161
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: school high school GPA, You've got a high school and

1162
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: I've had some recently. High school GPA is a really

1163
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: good measure because A it's increasingly important in college admissions,

1164
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: and B it's quite a good proxy for overall success.

1165
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: Let's look at high school GPA. The top performers in

1166
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: terms of high school GPA those in the top ten

1167
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 1: percent destined for good colleges two thirds girls, the bottom

1168
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: ten percent two thirds boys. And that is actually found

1169
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: pretty much every country in the world, pretty much every

1170
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: level of the education system, So a massive reversal in

1171
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: the gender gap in education. What that means is that

1172
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: struggling to hit the labor market in the employment. You've

1173
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: talked a lot about this, yes, in automation, free trade,

1174
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: like what's happened to the work to working class men?

1175
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,479
Speaker 1: The working class men can't get the jobs their dad

1176
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: got with the same level of education, and so this

1177
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: has been really difficult adjustment for men in the labor market.

1178
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: And one of the consequences of that is for family formation.

1179
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: So we see a number of men now who effectively

1180
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,439
Speaker 1: get benched because they're not fulfilling a traditional male role.

1181
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: We haven't rescripted a role for them, and so they

1182
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: end up out of touch with their kids' lives, which

1183
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: is particularly bad for the sun touch. That's one of

1184
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: the things I think is most important is, you know,

1185
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: especially I think in American society, we have this concept

1186
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: of masculinity that is central centered around being the breadwinner, correct,

1187
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: and then when you make it more and more difficult

1188
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: to fulfill that role, it's like, okay, well what am I? Then?

1189
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: You know, what is the role that I'm supposed to

1190
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: or am I just a failure? Like am I terrible,

1191
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: and that opens up a window for people who maybe

1192
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: don't have the best messaging to come and say, well,

1193
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: here's it's these it's these I won't you. I was

1194
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: going to say these b words, but it's these ladies

1195
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: over here. It's a feminist. There you go. And that's

1196
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: exactly the debate we're having right now. And I think

1197
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: what we see, what we see on the left is

1198
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: an unwinning us to acknowledge some of these issues at all,

1199
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: for fear that that means betraying your commitment to women,

1200
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: which we've already talked about. But on the right, there's

1201
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: this sort of magical thinking, which is, yeah, let's go

1202
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: back to the way things used to be. Let's go

1203
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: back to the way men and women knew their place

1204
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: and to marriages based on economic dependency. We live in

1205
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: a world now where forty percent of women earn more

1206
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 1: than the average men. Right. That was thirteen percent in

1207
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, and so we have forty one percent

1208
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: of households have a female breadwinner. This has been a

1209
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 1: huge change and so and a wonderful change, arguably the

1210
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: biggest economic liberation in human history. What it means, though,

1211
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: is that that old model of masculinity out of masculine

1212
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: success is not coming back, and politicians on the right,

1213
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: who somehow think they can wave a magic wand to

1214
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 1: bring it back, are selling everyone a lie. So the

1215
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: left are effectively turning their backs on boys and men,

1216
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: but the right are trying to turn back the clock

1217
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: on women and girls. And everybody I know is just

1218
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: trying to figure this out. And we need a model

1219
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: of mature masculinity that is compatible with gender equality. One

1220
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: of the things I think is important about your book

1221
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: is you actually offer some potential solutions. So let's talk

1222
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: about it. One of some of the things that you

1223
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 1: offer societal wide changes that could be piloted at the

1224
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: very least, start about experimental in America. Well, first of all,

1225
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 1: thank you for asking that question, because I'm pretty I

1226
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: do think books suffer sometimes from they become like the

1227
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 1: Book of Lamentations, Yes, everything's wrong with the world. And

1228
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: then maybe one idea at the so I felt I

1229
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: did want to offer some session. So in education, for example,

1230
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: I have three ideas. One is that we should start

1231
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: boys in school a year later than girls because their

1232
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: brains mature later. A sixteen year old boy and a

1233
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: sixteen year old girl, I think of a fourteen year

1234
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 1: old yeah, and I raise them. They're not the same.

1235
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: We know that boys' brains develop more slowly, which is

1236
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that those GPA gaps we've talked about.

1237
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: So start them at red shirt them is sometimes how

1238
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: it's described. We need a massive recruitment drive of male teachers.

1239
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: I think the fact that the teaching profession is becoming

1240
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: progressively more female is a problem. Twenty four percent of

1241
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: K twelve teachers now men, only one in ten elementary

1242
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 1: school teachers and getting fewer by the year. Interesting, and

1243
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: that does seem to have an effect on boys, especially

1244
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: in subjects like English. And then we need more vocational education,

1245
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: a big investment in apprenticeships and vote tech and so on,

1246
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: which do seem to help boys and men a little

1247
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: bit more so it's always focused on college. There's a

1248
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: unitary path and loan forgiveness, which again I know you've

1249
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: talked about. But meanwhile, what we see for boys is

1250
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 1: that hands on learning seems to work better for them.

1251
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 1: And so just in education, those are the sorts of

1252
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: ideas that I'm offering. One thing that I thought is

1253
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 1: so I don't necessarily. In fact, I don't agree with this,

1254
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 1: But what would you say to people who are basically like, Okay,

1255
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: you opened up the education, you made it so that

1256
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: women could compete. Women are competing, and actually they're better

1257
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: at this than boys. What's the problem. This is supposed

1258
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: to be a grand meritocracy and now you want to

1259
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: do like affirmative action for boys to like tilt the

1260
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 1: system in their favor. That doesn't seem fair. Well, it's

1261
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: actually I half agree with you, even if you don't completely,

1262
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: because that's exactly what's happened. What's happened in education is

1263
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: that we've created a playing field which is much more even.

1264
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: And what that's demonstrated is that actually women and girls

1265
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: are at a structural advantage in the education system. So

1266
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: we've created a level playing field, and it turns out

1267
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: that they're women and girls are better players. But they're

1268
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: better players largely because of the developmental differences, because their

1269
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: brains develop earlier, and especially the prefrontal cortex. But the

1270
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex is a bit of your brain that says,

1271
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: do your chemistry homework rather than going out to party.

1272
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: Maybe you should care about your GPA because that will

1273
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: help you get into college. It's about future orientation, it's

1274
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: about it's about the ability to control yourself, and it

1275
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: just develops a year or two later in boys than girls.

1276
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: And so I actually think that we're seeing one of

1277
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,959
Speaker 1: the great ironies is that by taking the breaks off

1278
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: girls and women in the education system, we've revealed the

1279
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: structural advantages they had all along. We couldn't see it

1280
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: because they weren't going to college right under conditions of sexism,

1281
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: we couldn't see the advantages that girls and women had

1282
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: in education. And nobody expected this overtaking. By the way,

1283
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 1: if you go back to the seventies, when everyone was

1284
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 1: pushing hard correctly for more for girls and women to

1285
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,439
Speaker 1: do better, nobody said, well wait, or if the lines

1286
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: keep going, and does it matter well to the extent

1287
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: that education matters increasingly in the modern economy, I think

1288
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,479
Speaker 1: we should be worried about any inequalities by group, whether

1289
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: that's race, gender, et cetera. So I don't think on

1290
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,479
Speaker 1: its face, there's any reason to be more relaxed about

1291
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: the gender gap now than in the nineteen seventies, just

1292
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: because it's the other way around. Well, something you alluded

1293
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 1: to also is at the individual level parenting. What do

1294
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: you think, if any changes need to come to the

1295
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: way that people parent, especially in either like a mixed

1296
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 1: gender household or in your case, we have three boys, Like,

1297
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: what should the at the individual level? You know, at

1298
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: the end of the day we could talk about solutions.

1299
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: We have a lot you know, a lot of people

1300
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: listening to this show, maybe they have kids. What should

1301
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 1: they be thinking about with regards to your book. Well,

1302
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 1: I think the first thing is something not to do,

1303
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: and I think that it's not to fall into the

1304
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: trap think it's something toxic about masculinity. I do think

1305
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: that this term toxic masculinity has become itself toxic frankly,

1306
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: because the message that society is then sending, which I

1307
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: think parents can absorb and inadverse we pass on, is

1308
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you. And so if you're behaving

1309
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: in a particular way, which on average is more associated

1310
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: with being male, then I think that to pathologize that,

1311
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: say physicality or more potential for aggression and so on,

1312
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: is not the way to help boys learn to manage that.

1313
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: So recognize there are some differences between them. It's a myth.

1314
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: There are no differences. Absolutely, you want equality of opportunity

1315
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: for both. Interestingly, now there's some evidence that people are

1316
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: starting to think it's more important for their girls to

1317
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,439
Speaker 1: go get a good education than their boys. And that's

1318
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 1: not true. And I'm very worried that in some households,

1319
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: and this seems to be particularly true in more working

1320
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 1: class households, that educational success itself is being seen as

1321
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: more feminine. And it's incredibly important to send a message

1322
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: to the boys that actually, you succeeding at school, you

1323
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: having chances at college or apprenticeships, is just as important

1324
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: as your sister. It feels weird to be saying this

1325
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 1: because it's so recent, but the educational overtaking is so

1326
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: fast and so recent that honestly, we're all, we're all

1327
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: our heads are spinning. It's like the polls on a

1328
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 1: compass reversing, like North became South overnight. And so I

1329
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: understand why. It's why we're all struggling. I've struggled with it,

1330
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: frankly as I've been writing a book. But the evidence

1331
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: is pretty clear now that if we're worried about education,

1332
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: we need to worry about boys. So if the old

1333
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 1: story we've told about like what it means to be

1334
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: a man is not functioning well in society. What does

1335
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: a new story sound like? Yeah, we definitely need a

1336
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: new script for masculinity. I think that what's happened for women,

1337
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: and be interested to know if you agree with this. Okay,

1338
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: there was an old script which was get married, get kids,

1339
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: have a stable family, etc. I'm simplifying. Yeah, the new

1340
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 1: script is get educated, get yourself independent, make sure you

1341
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: can take care of yourself. You go go right, make

1342
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: sure you can stand on your own feet. Very strong script.

1343
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 1: So we've replaced an old script, the new script for women,

1344
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: the old script for men, become a bread winner, make

1345
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: look after your family. The new script for men. Yep,

1346
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: not sure yet. And that's the problem. And so a

1347
01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: rescripted positive vision of masculinity has to be founded on.

1348
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: I think some things that sound quite old, which is,

1349
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: you do provide for your kids, but not just money,

1350
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 1: time and care, etc. So I think we need to

1351
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 1: start with fatherhood. The danger is that as the old

1352
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: model of masculinity has collapsed in the face of the

1353
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: changes that we've just mentioned, is that fathers get benched.

1354
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: The message that they get from themselves very often and

1355
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: from women and from society, is you failed as a breadwinner, ergo,

1356
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: you don't matter as a father. That's absolutely opposite of

1357
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: the truth. And so we need equal paid leave for fathers.

1358
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 1: Fathers who are not married to mothers need much stronger

1359
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 1: rights and they currently get. We have to send a

1360
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 1: message through policy and through rhetoric that fathers matter period.

1361
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: Go back to the speech Barack Obama gave in two

1362
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: thousand and eight about the importance of father's right. He

1363
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: was actually on the money, absolutely on the money, and

1364
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:47,679
Speaker 1: didn't really touch it again since. And so I don't

1365
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: think we're going to reconstitute marriage in the way that

1366
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 1: conservatives think we can. But we need to put fatherhood

1367
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: back on a pedestal, just a new kind of pedestal.

1368
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:56,640
Speaker 1: That's why I love about your work. You're trying to

1369
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: reform and recognize the realities the social progress we made

1370
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 1: and not diminish them in any way, but just say no,

1371
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: we need to find a new equilibrium, and that isn't

1372
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: always rooted in like being in the nineteen sixties individual

1373
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 1: We don't have to go back to go forward. Yes, well,

1374
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:12,639
Speaker 1: and I did want to ask you one other social

1375
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 1: trend that I actually did a monologue on which is

1376
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: that far fewer young people, either Democrat or Republican or

1377
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: are identifying as feminists. That's right, Yes, very interesting. Yeah, yeah,

1378
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: why did you think that? What did you make of that?

1379
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 1: What's happened? I think is that there's a few things.

1380
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: One is a lot of boys are hearing the message

1381
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: that we live in a patriarchy, we need feminism, et cetera,

1382
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 1: and they're looking around and going, wait what Yep, this

1383
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 1: is not the world that they're experiencing, and so they're

1384
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: they're struggling to fit the rhetoric about patriarchy and gender

1385
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: equality with their own lived experience. I think that's one thing. Yeah.

1386
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: I think the other thing is that feminism has morphed

1387
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: into more of a cultural movement. Yeah, it's not just boy,

1388
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: it's it's women too, who Younger women much less likely

1389
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 1: than their older counterparts to identify as feminists. Yeah, and

1390
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: there is some polling and I can't remember if you

1391
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 1: mentioned this on a your monologue, but they're dug into

1392
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 1: why don't you say you're a feminist? And there were

1393
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: Feminism's gone too far. Today's feminism doesn't represent true feminism,

1394
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: and feminism has become anti men, and so there's I

1395
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: think that feminism at its best is an equality movement. Yes,

1396
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 1: it's an equality movement and a liberation movement. And to

1397
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:28,679
Speaker 1: the extent that if you ask people do you think

1398
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 1: that women and girls should have equal opportunities to men

1399
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 1: and boys, everyone says yes. Everyone says yes. And if

1400
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 1: there are back remaining barriers to women and girls succeeding,

1401
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: should we take those barriers down? Everyone says yes. So

1402
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 1: they're clearly not thinking that's what feminism is, and instead

1403
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: they're seeing feminism more of this cultural movement which has

1404
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 1: taken on some of these the aura of anti men,

1405
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, etc. And I think has been a bit

1406
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 1: blind to some of the problems that boys and men

1407
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: are now facing. That creates, as you alluded to earlier,

1408
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,600
Speaker 1: a massive opening other people to come in. Well, I

1409
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: encourage everybody to go buy the book. It's right here,

1410
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 1: we're going to have linked down in the description. Go

1411
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: ahead and purchase it. And I think supporting people like

1412
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 1: you who do this work in a very measured way,

1413
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 1: data thoughtful, no culture war or any of that, is

1414
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 1: just the most important thing. So go ahead and support

1415
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 1: Richard if you can link is in the description. Otherwise

1416
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 1: we will see you all next week. We've got the

1417
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,839
Speaker 1: counterpoints tomorrow. Go ahead and take advantage of the discount

1418
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:24,600
Speaker 1: if you can live show YadA YadA. You guys know

1419
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 1: all of that. We'll see you guys later. Love y'all.