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Speaker 1: M I'm Katie Curic, and this is Abortion the Body Politic,

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Speaker 1: Part five. What has just occurred in the United States

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Speaker 1: is unprecedented. Globally, we have never seen retrogression on this

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Speaker 1: scale in terms of the taking away of a constitutional

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Speaker 1: right to abortion that has existed for fifty years. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're looking outside of the US to find out what

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Speaker 1: the right for reproductive rights looks like in other countries

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Speaker 1: and how the United States now compares. The United States

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Speaker 1: is now in a situation but really is an outlier

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Speaker 1: in sense of the global picture. I'm Lea Hocter and

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Speaker 1: I work at the Center for Reproductive Rights. I'm the

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Speaker 1: senior Regional Director for Europe at the Center, and I

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Speaker 1: lead the Center's work to make legaland policy change on

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Speaker 1: reproductive rights across Europe. Only three countries and now very

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Speaker 1: unfortunately the United States, so that makes it for have

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Speaker 1: actually moved backwards. El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Poland have rowed

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Speaker 1: back entitlements to abortion, but never on this scale. They

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Speaker 1: have done so from restrictive contexts, so they have had

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Speaker 1: laws in place that we're already generally globally regarded as

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Speaker 1: restrictive and have then scaled back those entitlements. But the

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Speaker 1: United States, what has happened in terms of the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court's decision um, what that decision has done is taken

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Speaker 1: away a very robust constitutional protection for abortion rights and

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Speaker 1: completely decimated that. Globally, the trend is very clear. There

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Speaker 1: is an overwhelming movement and has been for many, many

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Speaker 1: decades across the world in all regions, towards the removal

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Speaker 1: of bands and highly restrictive laws on abortion, and towards

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Speaker 1: the legalization of abortion, the treatment of it as essential healthcare,

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Speaker 1: the decriminalization and the removal of barriers in law and policy.

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Speaker 1: And this is the overwhelming trend. It has been the

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Speaker 1: trend in Europe for eighty years. It has been squarely

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Speaker 1: the global trend um for at least the last thirty years.

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Speaker 1: I mean in the last thirty years alone, fifty five

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Speaker 1: or you know, over fifty five I think actually fifty

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Speaker 1: nine countries globally have moved towards removing bands on abortion,

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Speaker 1: legalizing abortion, and expanding access, expanding entitlements to abortion. We've

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Speaker 1: seen major systemic change in Latin America as a result

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Speaker 1: of the green wave. In Argentina, Columbia and Mexico, in

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Speaker 1: the European region. We've seen systemic change in Ireland, in Cyprus,

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Speaker 1: in Belgium, in Iceland. Even just in the last few weeks,

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Speaker 1: major jurisdictions Germany, France, the Netherlands all removing barriers from

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Speaker 1: to abortion from their laws Spain. Legislation is now pending

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Speaker 1: in Spain that will really introduce a range of very

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Speaker 1: important reforms that will increase protection for abortion rights. And

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Speaker 1: these are just a handful of examples. We've also seen

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Speaker 1: major change in African countries in Kenya, um in South Africa,

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Speaker 1: and in in Asia and Nepal, in India and South Korea,

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Speaker 1: and a range of other countries. It's not actually impossible

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Speaker 1: for me to list every single country in the world

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Speaker 1: that has made progressive change, because there are so many.

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Speaker 1: Some countries are now taking protective measures in direct response

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme courts reversal of Row. In the days

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Speaker 1: since the decision from the United States Supreme Court, we

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Speaker 1: are now hearing lawmakers in France, in Belgium, in Sweden

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Speaker 1: and Denmark discussing in a very conquerent way the reforms

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Speaker 1: they will undertake to introduce constitutional rights protection for abortion

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Speaker 1: rights in their national constitutions. We've seen sinn Land announced

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Speaker 1: that it will undertake reforms of its laws to improve

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Speaker 1: them to bring them into line with World Health Organization

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Speaker 1: UM guidance. So while for people in the United States

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Speaker 1: the situation is very troubling and very grave, what we

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Speaker 1: are actually seeing on foot of this decision in this

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Speaker 1: region in Europe is a galvanization by decision makers across

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Speaker 1: the region who care about reproductive rights to actually begin

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Speaker 1: to stand up for those rights and do something in

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Speaker 1: terms of their own national laws and policies to shore

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Speaker 1: up that production. With the US now facing a long

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Speaker 1: road ahead, it's about time we turn our attention to

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Speaker 1: what activists around the world have been building. What can

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Speaker 1: the US and abortion advocates learn from the systemic change

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Speaker 1: rippling across other continents. We reached out to someone on

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Speaker 1: the front lines of reproductive rights in Latin America, one

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Speaker 1: of the organizers of the so called Green wave. The

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Speaker 1: green wave is resistant, is power, is hope. That's what

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Speaker 1: the green wave is. So I am Powerla Like jan

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Speaker 1: I am a human rights attorney reproductive rights activists all

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Speaker 1: over Latin America, and I am the executive director at

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Speaker 1: the Women's Equality center. It started in Argentina when UM,

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Speaker 1: the la Campaign Nacional, the National Campaign for Legal and

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Speaker 1: Free Abortion, was created in two thousand three. It all

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Speaker 1: started with a symbol. There was this handkerchief. The handkerchief

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Speaker 1: was a green handkerchief. The handkerchief came inspired by the Ulam.

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Speaker 1: There were the women in Argentina that were marching UM

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Speaker 1: to find the kids that their children that were disappeared

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Speaker 1: during the Dector Chip. And they will march every Thursday,

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Speaker 1: and they will wear these white handkerchiefs around their their

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Speaker 1: heads as a symbol of who they were. And every

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Speaker 1: Thursday at three o'clock you will see the Martian even

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Speaker 1: as today they are still Martian. At this point, it's

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Speaker 1: not to try to seek their children, but their grandchildren.

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Speaker 1: So it was a movement of resistance, right, this idea

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Speaker 1: that women can come together and resists together and the

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Speaker 1: like companion as you all decided, instead of using white,

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Speaker 1: they were using green because abortion is healthcare and green

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Speaker 1: is associated with the color of health. And it started

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Speaker 1: very simple, just with this idea of you will put

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Speaker 1: the handkerchief in your race, in your purse, and and

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Speaker 1: it was a not when you were on the street

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Speaker 1: of letting know somebody what you were standing for, and

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Speaker 1: I mean that you were standing for women's rights. It

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Speaker 1: means that you were standing for health. I mean that

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Speaker 1: you were standing for abortion as a health care. That

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Speaker 1: you were standing for equality, you were standing for democracy

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Speaker 1: and all the sudden UH. Through the work of many years,

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Speaker 1: this small symbol took cover the entire Latin American region

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Speaker 1: and it has take over the entire work. It also

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Speaker 1: has created changes. In the last two years, Latin America

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Speaker 1: has jumped from being one of the regions with the

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Speaker 1: most restricted abortion laws to be in a region there

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Speaker 1: has changed its abortion laws in three countries. Argentina is

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Speaker 1: also the land of the current pope, just changed its

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Speaker 1: law in December twenty twenty, recogniztion autonomy as a as

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Speaker 1: a right and UH and also making sure that help

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Speaker 1: the abortion was included in health services and were provided

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Speaker 1: free in hospitals for anybody who needed. Then we had

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Speaker 1: Mexico through the decision of the Supreme Court, he decided

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Speaker 1: that in order to make it equal for everybody, no

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Speaker 1: women could be criminalized because of abortion access and the

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Speaker 1: states had the duty to change their laws. And since

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Speaker 1: that decision, nine states had changed their laws, and then

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Speaker 1: very resently we had my home country, Columbia, the true

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Speaker 1: decision of the UH Constitutional Court recognized the women should

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Speaker 1: have autonomy to decide when and where UH interrupt apprentices

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Speaker 1: if they wish so between the first twenty four weeks

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Speaker 1: of of pregnancy, and and that just is something that

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Speaker 1: we never thought that would happen in Mexico. Is it's

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Speaker 1: still a very religious country. Goluby is still a very

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Speaker 1: religious country and conservative in many ways. But what we

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Speaker 1: are seeing is the resistance of this movement and the

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Speaker 1: hope that this movement brings is changing laws in the

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Speaker 1: meantime here in the US. For women who need abortion

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Speaker 1: care right now and live in states that ban or

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Speaker 1: heavily restricted traveling even outside the country, maybe their beast.

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Speaker 1: But I think that there are two things that are

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Speaker 1: important to remember when we talk about abortion in the

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Speaker 1: context of traveling outside the United States. The first one

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Speaker 1: is abortionist health care, and Americans have been traveling to

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Speaker 1: Latin America for healthcare for a very long time. Then

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Speaker 1: tal procedures, some of the best dentists are done in

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Speaker 1: Mexico and Colombia. They are training the United States, they

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Speaker 1: go back there is much cheaper. They have all these facilities.

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Speaker 1: The tourism of health is something in exist because the

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Speaker 1: United States doesn't have a strong health care system. They

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Speaker 1: they are already are examples and you're seeking healthcare in

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Speaker 1: other countries. So now we are just starting abortion just

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Speaker 1: one of those services that you're going to be seeking

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Speaker 1: that is of the same quality and of the same

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Speaker 1: level that you will receive and is sometimes better than

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Speaker 1: many of the states here, like the systems that you

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Speaker 1: will have. But the other thing that is happening is

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Speaker 1: that the women who are in the border in Mexico

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Speaker 1: UM trying to provide these services. There is an amazing

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Speaker 1: leader in Mexico, Peronica Cruise from Lallibres, who have created

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Speaker 1: this whole network of people who are willing to just

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Speaker 1: provide abortion to anybody who crosses the border or even

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Speaker 1: sometimes they across the border UM to to provide help.

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Speaker 1: They didn't do it because it was a request for

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Speaker 1: anybody from the United States. They came together so the

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Speaker 1: Texas law and say, what are we going to do

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Speaker 1: about it? It's our border, they are our sisters. There

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Speaker 1: are our Latino systems on the other side. What are

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Speaker 1: we going to do? About it, because, as Beronica says,

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Speaker 1: the law sometimes is wrong, and when the law is wrong,

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Speaker 1: you need to find a way to fix it. The

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Speaker 1: United States, in this case, it's just completely going backwards.

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Speaker 1: It is regressing and humanity cannot allow that. We spoke

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Speaker 1: to Veronica Cruise with the help of a translator from

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Speaker 1: her office in Guana Wato, Mexico. Veronica started her organization

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Speaker 1: Las Libres two decades ago. Las Libre. Las Libres is

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Speaker 1: a feminist organization that was born twenty two years ago,

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Speaker 1: and we were born in the right time to fight

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Speaker 1: for safe abortion in a state which was the most

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Speaker 1: restrictive for abortion rights at the time in the country

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Speaker 1: of Mexico. So, twenty two years ago, local legislators wanted

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Speaker 1: to put women victims of rape in jail after having abortions,

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Speaker 1: and and we decided to make a huge fight to

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Speaker 1: guarantee that not only would those women be released, but

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Speaker 1: also to have the law change so so I can

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Speaker 1: we We did a great job of ensuring safe, free

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Speaker 1: and legal abortions for girls and women who were victims

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Speaker 1: of rape. From there, we we started to guarantee that

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Speaker 1: all women would have that right to a safe and

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Speaker 1: legal abortion if they decided to do so. And and

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Speaker 1: so we built this model of safe abortions at home

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Speaker 1: without medical supervision under the protocol of the World Health Organization,

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Speaker 1: and today we've built networks across the country to ensure that. Coincidentally,

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Speaker 1: a week after s b A became law in Texas,

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Speaker 1: the Mexican Supreme Court decriminalized abortion. We thought it was

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Speaker 1: a good idea to help that memen in Texas right

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Speaker 1: because in Mexican territory, the Texas lob does not apply

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Speaker 1: to them. And although our locations border each other, if

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Speaker 1: you just crossed the street, we are in Texas. So

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Speaker 1: in certain border cities, we decided to form a cross

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Speaker 1: border network to support and accompany women from Texas who

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Speaker 1: are seeking free, safe and legal abortions. So then more

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Speaker 1: women began to arrive from other states from the United States,

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Speaker 1: and well after the summer, women from all around the

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Speaker 1: country started coming to Mexico for help. We've already developed

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Speaker 1: several logistical ways over the past few months to ensure

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Speaker 1: the safety of abortion and to ensure that women and

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Speaker 1: people in the United States who are seeking them can

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Speaker 1: do so safely. The first are the women who can

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Speaker 1: cross to Mexico. Those who have the ability to cross,

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Speaker 1: they can come and they can buy their mr Po

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Speaker 1: style pills at any pharmacy in Mexico, and they can

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Speaker 1: return home with their prescription and they can have a

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Speaker 1: virtual accompaniment to accompany them through the procedure. And then

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Speaker 1: there are other women who are crossing into Mexico, and

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Speaker 1: we have safe spaces that we arrange for them for

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Speaker 1: those women who want to do everything in Mexico. And

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Speaker 1: then there are others, and and these are actually the majority.

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Speaker 1: These are women who write to us and we send

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Speaker 1: the pills to be hand delivered to them from here,

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Speaker 1: and then we accompany them through the process. Virtually, there

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Speaker 1: are women who are looking for our services, and there

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Speaker 1: are also people who want to help. And so we're

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Speaker 1: developing the model that we developed in Mexico twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: building social solidarity, a society that accompanies the decision of

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Speaker 1: women and a guarantee of abortions, with the insurance of

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Speaker 1: the safety of women so that they do not have

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Speaker 1: to have abortions and restrictive and unsafe settings. We are

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Speaker 1: prepared because we know that we can be an option

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Speaker 1: that more and more women are are learning about this

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Speaker 1: possibility and they can get care through our services and

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Speaker 1: that they have us as an alternative. So so we

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Speaker 1: are prepared with more medicine and more hands and heads

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Speaker 1: to go along with it. But but honestly, we don't

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Speaker 1: want to solve America's problem. American society has to solve

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Speaker 1: this problem because it's not a woman's problem. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a problem of a society that allows women's rights to

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Speaker 1: a legal and safe abortion to be restricted. So if

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Speaker 1: we really hope that American society is prepared to deal

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Speaker 1: with this problem. When we come back the story of

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Speaker 1: one woman's border crossing abortion, this isn't the first time

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Speaker 1: that American women have turned to Mexico for help. In

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, in particular, many women traveled to Mexico

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Speaker 1: for abortion care they were unable to get in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Women like Marcia Carlin. My name is Marcia Carlin.

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Speaker 1: I'm seventy seven and I had my abortion when I

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Speaker 1: was twenty one, before robi Raide was passed in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six. When Marcia found her pregnant and did not

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Speaker 1: want to be she first went to an O. B. G.

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Speaker 1: Y N in San Francisco to a Dr Loewenstein, but

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Speaker 1: he refused to do the procedure. Dr Loewenstein didn't know

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Speaker 1: of anybody, any doctor in the United States at that

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Speaker 1: time who would give me an abortion, so he gave

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Speaker 1: us the phone number in Tijuana for this doctor. And

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Speaker 1: it turned out the police had had a had made

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Speaker 1: him leave Tijuana. He'd run out of Tijuana because the

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Speaker 1: police were after him, so he was now in Warez,

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Speaker 1: so we knew we had to somehow get to Mexico.

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Speaker 1: He told us to check in at the el, pass

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Speaker 1: at the hotel and then take a taxi to a

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Speaker 1: street border in Warez and then um, a guy would

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Speaker 1: pick us up in her I think it was a

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Speaker 1: red Chevrolet, and we were supposed to act like we

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Speaker 1: knew him. And we waited and waited on that street corner,

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Speaker 1: and finally he came by and he opened the door

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Speaker 1: real fast and said get in. So we got in,

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Speaker 1: and he drove around and around and around for at

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Speaker 1: least twenty minutes, drove around the back streets of Warez

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Speaker 1: and probably trying so we wouldn't know where he was going.

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Speaker 1: Ended up in a residential neighborhood in a small house

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Speaker 1: and said coming here, the doctor's in there, and he

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Speaker 1: brought me in and a woman said sit here and

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Speaker 1: wait for the doctors. So after a while she brought

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Speaker 1: me back to a bedroom where there was a metal

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Speaker 1: table and she said, lie on the table. It was

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Speaker 1: stirts and the doctor came in and he was going

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Speaker 1: to give me gas and he said I want you

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Speaker 1: and I put the gas on. Not to move, don't

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Speaker 1: move at all. But he gave me gas then, so

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Speaker 1: I started having wild dreams, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: all I remember is he pulled the yanked the gas

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Speaker 1: mask off and said you moved, and I was. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to explain how scary that was because I didn't

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Speaker 1: know what he was doing to my body and my uterus.

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Speaker 1: And so he said, I'm then I have to finish

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Speaker 1: the operation without the gas, and I said that's fine

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Speaker 1: with me because I was scared to death. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: gonna move then, and so he did very quickly finished

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Speaker 1: what he was doing. I guess he was scraping my

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Speaker 1: uterus and and he said you're going to get cramps,

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Speaker 1: and I did that serious fans. Anyway, we left and

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Speaker 1: got in the car, the red Chevrolet, and he drove

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Speaker 1: us back again, and we got a taxi back to

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Speaker 1: El Paso, and then we got up playing back to

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, and then I saw Dr Loewenstein that evening,

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Speaker 1: I think for the next morning, and he said everything

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Speaker 1: looked fine. But a couple of days later, I think

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Speaker 1: it was two days later, I started to hemorrhage. I'd

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Speaker 1: never hemorrhage before. It's it's that in itself. It's a

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Speaker 1: very scary feeling. There's just blood gushing out of your

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Speaker 1: your vagina. My friends were very worried about me, and

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Speaker 1: so they said, call Dr Lowancy. We're gonna take you

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Speaker 1: back to the hospital in San Francisco. So they drove

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Speaker 1: me back. I was curled up in the backseat of

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Speaker 1: the car. I remember this distinctly, and just so anxious.

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Speaker 1: First I didn't know what was happening in my body,

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Speaker 1: and then I thought I was messing up his car

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Speaker 1: with all this blood. No, even though I tried not

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Speaker 1: to mess it up. So we got back and Dr

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Speaker 1: Loewenstein had talked to me and he said come right in.

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Speaker 1: And what he did that he put me out that

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Speaker 1: night and just so i'd sleep, and then first thing

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Speaker 1: in the morning he operated. I think he did a

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Speaker 1: DNC to finish the operation. He told me how scared,

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Speaker 1: how not he wasn't scared, but how worried he was

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Speaker 1: that I could have died from the hemorrhaging. And he

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Speaker 1: y'all also came around, gave me a hug, actually said,

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Speaker 1: stand if I want to give you a hug. And

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Speaker 1: he said, I'm so glad you will be able to

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Speaker 1: have children. And I hadn't even realized that that could be.

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Speaker 1: I was worried about I don't know. I was just

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Speaker 1: frightened more than anything. And he said he will be

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Speaker 1: able to have the children. I'm quite sure I was

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Speaker 1: able to have two kids. So a few years later,

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Speaker 1: when it was the right time, Dr Loewensteinen in San

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Speaker 1: Francisco had asked me to write up to type up

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Speaker 1: the experience, so I typed it up before I hemorrhaged.

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00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 1: I typed it up when I got back and gave

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Speaker 1: it to him because he wanted to know more to

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Speaker 1: help other women. I sent you a copy of the

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Speaker 1: They're write up, which I finally found. I hadn't seen

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Speaker 1: it since I gave it to him. That was great.

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Speaker 1: Two kind of verify everything I had remembered in my mind.

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Speaker 1: I was most surprised that it ended before I hemorrhaged.

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Speaker 1: I didn't remember that that it ended like everything was fine,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't. It was not fine. I just thank

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Speaker 1: the Lord at the end that everything worked out. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's very lucky, as very very lucky. It's really hard.

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Speaker 1: It's even harder to know, like who were the people

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Speaker 1: across the border for morsons. It's very hard to know

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Speaker 1: how many. UM, my guess is in the thousands of

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Speaker 1: My name is Lena Maria Murillo and I'm a historian. UM.

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Speaker 1: I'm an assistant professor at the University of Iowa and

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Speaker 1: the Department of Gender, Women in Sexuality Studies, History and

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Speaker 1: Latin and Latino Latin Next six. Through her work, Lena

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00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: has uncovered evidence of just how long American women have

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Speaker 1: been traveling to Mexico for abortion care. This is a

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00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: problem with trying to find the history of things that

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00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: are underground and illegal, right, It's always hard to find

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00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: this sort of like moment when it started. But through

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Speaker 1: oral histories, um I was able to document UM one

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00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: abortion clinic in into other bodies UH in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: late nineteen forties and UM the person I spoke to

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Speaker 1: like worked at his clinic. She was a young woman

348
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: worked at at the Davalos clinic. She hired is another

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Speaker 1: young woman, uh, and he teaches her how to do

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Speaker 1: the procedure. Now she's not a doctor, she's she's just

351
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,479
Speaker 1: an assistant, but she teaches her, and then he teaches

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00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: his son mad and then it's like kind of radio

353
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: silence from that, like that oral history intribue that I

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00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: did in nineteen forties until the nineteen sixties when a

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Speaker 1: person by the name of Patricia McGinnis, along with um

356
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: Rowena Gerner, and Lanta Fallon out of the Bay Area,

357
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: begin to really advocate very loudly for a repeal of

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Speaker 1: the abortion laws in California. Patricia McGinnis in San Francisco.

359
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: She's working class women from Oklahoma, and she's a medical technician,

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00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: historian Leslie Reagan, and she she that's like the first

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00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: person to start talking to just ordinary people and collects

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00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: petitions to reform the abortion law and make it easier, uh,

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00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: to get therapeutic abortions. And then she starts talking because

364
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: she had had abortions herself, she had performed her own abortion,

365
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: she had had illegal abortions. She had illegal abortion in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: And so they created this big um not we want

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00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: big pathetic quotes organization UM called the Society Humane Abortions

368
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: and then the Association to Repeal Abortion Laws. And through

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00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: those two organizations UM, they begin to create a list

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Speaker 1: of abortion providers in the US Mexico border region, what's

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00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: called the list of Providers in Mexico and some in

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00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: Japan and England. They go and they to Mexico and

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Speaker 1: they meet the specialists, and they they inspect the clinics,

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Speaker 1: and they set up this whole thing where UM there

375
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Speaker 1: they heart like the public health inspectors. And really was

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Speaker 1: Rowena Gerner who was like that. She was the one

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00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 1: who was on top of making sure that everybody was

378
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: doing things properly. And they ask anyone who gets this

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00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: information they provide, you know a big packet of information

380
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: of where to go, how to prepare, what to expect,

381
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: how much it will cost. And they asked them to

382
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: fill out, um uh something about the procedure and to

383
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: bring back information, you know about the quality of the procedure.

384
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: Was it safe, did it appear to be um, you know, sanitary?

385
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: How do they behave how much did they charge you?

386
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: So so they also created you know, like a consumer

387
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: pressure group because they kept information and they would take

388
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: people off the list as they got bad information. So

389
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: that's one really important group that was sending people out

390
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: of the country UM for Safe Abortions, and that they

391
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: are trying to regulate the practitioners. What's fascinating is that

392
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: she ends up and listening those two people that I

393
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: just mentioned UM who is the son of Antonio la

394
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: who had the clinic of nineteen Fouries, and this other

395
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: other person who's the father taught her and they're like

396
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: number one on her list. She's like, I love these people.

397
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: They know what they're doing, they're amazing, they do great work.

398
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: And and sure enough, like as I've looked through the

399
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: UM through their files, some people were like it was fine, right,

400
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: like they didn't want to say too much. This was fine,

401
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: not a big deal. And other people went to great

402
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: links to kind of tell every detail of what the

403
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: experience had been like. And UM of the woman provider,

404
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: people had the most incredible experiences with her. She operated

405
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: completely underground UM out of a small house, you know,

406
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: as an all women, all women crew. UM. She was

407
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: assisted by her sister, and then they had like two

408
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: other women assistants, and um, they would feed the people

409
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: that would come um and get abortions. And you know,

410
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: one woman wrote like they did my makeup when I left.

411
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: I lived prettier after my abortion and I did when

412
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: I got here. UM. I mean just you know, I'm

413
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: interpreting it as like really thoughtful sort of feminist, feminist

414
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: grounded care right. And so the demand for abortion goes up,

415
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: especially in the nineteen sixties when you've got like women's

416
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: liberation right is at the forefront of all this um

417
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: and and so people are demanding greater access to abortion care.

418
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: And so they go to Northern meche Goal to to

419
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: get that abortion care. I want to guess Tomate thousands

420
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: of people um went and and got successfully access abortion

421
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: care from reputable providers in Northern Micheo Goal. We wouldn't

422
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: have organizations like the Society for Humane Abortions or the

423
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: Clergy Consultation Service referring people to make a goal if

424
00:28:54,400 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: these were not good providers. A young woman dies, be

425
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: it as an agrest a budged abortion, and that creates

426
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: this massive like, well, what the heck is going on

427
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: in Mexico. We thought we had done what we could

428
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: in Bifuana, but now like this has spread all across

429
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: northern Mexico's border. The narrative that these awful abortion mills

430
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: and quad is and making we're killing American them right

431
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: was the sort of big story, and it was bringing

432
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: disrepute to places like like I'll Passo right, where people

433
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: in a Passo Americans and I'll Passoor ashamed embarrassed by

434
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: their Mexican compatriots who were engaging in this unlawful activity.

435
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: And they interviewed this one doctor, you know pass So

436
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: and he says, uh, you know, we can't do anything

437
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: about our Mexican neighbors. They're just lawless like this at

438
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: the same time that people are racializing. May he go

439
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: out this? You know, Um Sarah Weddington who goes on

440
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: to r U Rovi Wade, you know, she had a

441
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: Ward Mackey golf. She was in Austin at the time,

442
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: getting her degree in in law, becoming an attorney. Um,

443
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: but u t Austin and she's like, you know, here

444
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: I am on this dusty, dirty backwards Mexican Mexican town

445
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: going to get an abortion right. Like the trope of

446
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: the like back alley butcher for people in in the

447
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: Borderlands was mee Go like Mickey Go was where these

448
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 1: butchers lived and this is where they did their butchery,

449
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: even though there's so much information about non butchers right

450
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: like actual providers who were doing incredible work, but it

451
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: was they were an easy fall guy for demanding rights

452
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: in the US. And that's part of the work that

453
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: I that I'm writing about and talking about is the

454
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: way that this, like the racialist tropes worked in the

455
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: favor of like US feminist activists to be able to say, yeah,

456
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: we're leaning on some of these folks to do the

457
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: like dirty work of providing access to abortion, and I

458
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: put dirty working quotes so that we can protect doctors

459
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: in the US. But we'll also use them escapegoat to say, like,

460
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 1: we don't want women traveling to backwards on sanitary Mehico

461
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: to get abortions. We want safe, legal abortions in the US.

462
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: There are doctors who could have performed abortions in the US,

463
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: and some of them did, but for fear of losing

464
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: their license or fear of being accosted being known as

465
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: the abortion provider in their community. They're like now but

466
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: I know somebody who can help you in Mexico, because

467
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: we don't care about our colleagues and mahkoes about the

468
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: way that they're seeing or understood in their communities. As

469
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: the United States embarks on this new era of abortion criminalization,

470
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Lena says, if we're willing to pay attention, there is

471
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: a lot we can learn just by taking a global perspective.

472
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: One of the lessons that run the past for me

473
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: is really thinking about the rb rariness of borders and

474
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: how they have to not make people care, and how

475
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: people constantly thwart them anyway. They're all means to control people.

476
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: The thought that, like all all social justice and survival understanding,

477
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: is going to emanate from the United States is absolutely incorrect.

478
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: We should be thinking about how weird going to join

479
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: international global coalitions for social justice in racial justice, not

480
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: as the not as the ones that are bringing the knowledge,

481
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: but the ones that are here to learn right. And

482
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: so that to me is like a critical fundamental part

483
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: of what we can learn from history. Don't We have

484
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: benefited from care from other countries and other providers in

485
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: the past, and we will likely lead them again. And

486
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: that racialist tropes and ideologies have no there's no room

487
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: for for that at this particular juncture. Once again there's

488
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: pala a villa. The United States has been living in

489
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: a war. They was beautiful and it was privileged in

490
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: terms of autonomy for many. Still it wasn't the reality

491
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: for many or stays for a while, but at least

492
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: in general and the role protection had a lot of

493
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: power and um. In Latin America we have been in

494
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: the opposite for many years and we have been able

495
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: to survive. Somehow we know from a legal point of

496
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: view how to make some legal laws better when they're

497
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: still very restricted. Some of them have been through international standards,

498
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: the World Health Organizations, the UN standards. So so I

499
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: think the activists need to look to those standards that

500
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: we have been trying to create for twenty or thirty

501
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: years as symbols of how you make laws. There are

502
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: still very restrictive, a lot more flexible until you change everything.

503
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: But then also from examples of the SASS, we have

504
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: had success for the last um two years, and even

505
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: in very restricted environments like All Salvador, where there is

506
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: a total abortion and women in All Salvador have been

507
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: criminalized for upset for emergencies for miscarriages and stilberts, which

508
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: is something that we are going to see in the

509
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: United States as well, and unfortunately dies a reality that

510
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: we have also just celebrated the freedom of sixty five

511
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: women that we were able to get out of prison.

512
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: And I think this is an opportunity for the United

513
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 1: States to say and for the activists, Okay, we haven't

514
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: seen this new reality yet, but there are others who have.

515
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: Let's bring it on board and common and I am

516
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: started seeing a lot of that already happening, but I

517
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: think it needs to be more consistence, more effectively, and

518
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: more um and more openness. Right for that when we

519
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: come back, what the progress these Catholic countries have made

520
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: says about our own complicated relationship religion. Votes in favor

521
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 1: of the proposals who vote will lead to the dismantling

522
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: of one of the strictest anti abortion regimes in the world.

523
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: Just south of the border, in one of the most

524
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: Catholic countries in the world, women's rights activists have scored

525
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: a major victory. This is a huge step for a

526
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: widely Catholic country. Much has been made of the fact

527
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: that several of the countries that have liberalized abortion laws

528
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: in the past couple of years are largely Catholic. The

529
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: Catholics can be anything but anti abortion seems to be

530
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: a shock, but Catholics and people from all faith have

531
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: been in the fight for reproductive rights all along. I

532
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: am Jamie Manson and I'm president of Catholics for Choice.

533
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: The dominant narrative UM that most people buy into is

534
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: that all Catholics are opposed to abortion, and all Catholics think, um,

535
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: life begins at conception. Uh. And so that is like

536
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: the number one myth that we have to bust in

537
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: our work, because in fact, abortion is very popular among

538
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: Catholics in the United States, more popular actually than the

539
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: general US population. Sixty percent of Catholics did not want

540
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: to see Roe versus Wade struck down on Friday. Um.

541
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: I've seen different number. More recent numbers say sixty of

542
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: Catholics believe abortion should be legal in all our most cases. Uh.

543
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: And I think one of the most surprising numbers is

544
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: that h one in four abortion patients in this country

545
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: is Catholic, meaning that not only did Catholic support abortion,

546
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: they're having abortions at the same rate as everyone else.

547
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: In this country, so abortion is part of the life

548
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: of the church. Catholics for Choice has a decades long

549
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: legacy of working in Latin America helping liberalize abortion laws there.

550
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: But now it's the US that needs the help. We're

551
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: going to bring in our sisters in Latin America who

552
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: are from the Catholic for Choice UM organizations there to

553
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: come and tell us what we need to know about

554
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 1: how to live under a repressive anti abortion regime. How

555
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: did you survive, how did you create networks? How did

556
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: you avoid the law? Um? You know, and it is

557
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: just a stunning moment for us that the people that

558
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: we helped we are turning to to help us navigate us,

559
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: to be our visionaries, to be our profits UM in

560
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: the Road ahead. Catholics Are Choice actually really predates ROW,

561
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: not formally, but UM. The women who ended up founding

562
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: the organization were already organizing before ROW and then really

563
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: in earnest formalized after the road decision. So the organization

564
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,959
Speaker 1: is UM just about fifty years old now and its

565
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: purpose was really to to ask for several things. One

566
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: is for conversation about abortion within the walls of the church,

567
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: because there is no room even at the most liberal

568
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,959
Speaker 1: Catholic university, where there are other conversations about controversial things,

569
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: you cannot talk about abortion. So wanting to you know,

570
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: to be able to have dialogue about the issue was

571
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: it was a very big, big campaign of theirs um

572
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: and then to embolden the voices of Catholics who already

573
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: are pro choice. And for those Catholics who don't know

574
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: where they fall um in in in what camp? To

575
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: educate them, you know, not to tell them what to think,

576
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: but give them the resources there the church won't give them, uh,

577
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: to discern what for them is a morally complex issue.

578
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: In my opinion, for the bishops, this is not about babies,

579
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: This is not about life. This is really about controlling

580
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: women's freedom. Because there is a fundamental idea in Catholicism

581
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: of gender binary uh they call it gender complimentarity. That

582
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: God ordained men for a very specific role, having that

583
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be leaders and take authority, and women

584
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: are meant to be servants and nurturers and care for

585
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: the family, and our most essential vocation is motherhood. According

586
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: to this theology, um Pope chump Pulled the second had

587
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: a special phrase for women. He said, we had a

588
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: feminine genius. And what that really means is our uterus

589
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: is our ability to just state was our genius. And

590
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: so this is this is so pervasive. Um. And I

591
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: think this is the prime mover for these men. Again,

592
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: these are ostensibly celibate, all male leadership. This is the

593
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 1: most radical patriarchy in the world. There's a billion Catholics.

594
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: They have presents in every country in the globe, in

595
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: the globe, and they also have enormous power at the

596
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: U N for that matter. And so they are terrified

597
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: of women's power and women's freedom. And um, that is

598
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: what you know, A portion is really all about. When

599
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: you can control your own fertility, you have access to

600
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: freedom and power. And this is the opposite of what

601
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: this hierarchy wants it they it scares a life out

602
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: of them. Remember, they do not ordain women. Why on

603
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: earth would they want women to have access to freedom

604
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: and power. And also, all of these ideas that we're

605
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: hearing life begins a conception, personhood, these are all Catholic theology.

606
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: These are all Catholic theological ideas that suddenly Evangelicals believe in.

607
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: Suddenly Mormons believe in churches that never believed to this.

608
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: Suddenly when it became politically expedient where they could have

609
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: a you know, an unholy alliance. Uh. These three, these

610
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: three churches Catholicism, Mormonism and Evangelicalism, they saw the political

611
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: power and cloud they would get that they got this

612
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: prime seat at the Republican table. Uh, it changed everything

613
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: for them. And so but again, but these are these

614
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 1: are you know, to me, very fringe Catholic ideas because

615
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: most Catholics don't believe them. That are being codified into

616
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: civil law. I mean it is the grossest infringement on

617
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: religious freedom, I think in the history of this nation,

618
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: because we have a lot of people of faith, like Jews,

619
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: who not only support abortion rights, it's required in some circumstances,

620
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: and so we are really infringing on religious freedom of others.

621
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: In a survey done of Jews in the United States

622
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: support abortion access. We go back to this value of

623
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: piqua nefesh, this value that means the the importance, the

624
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: value of saving a life. My name is Rabbi Kelly Levy.

625
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: I am the associate Rabbi at Congregation Beth Israel in Austin, Texas,

626
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: and I work with a vibrant, inclusive, social justice oriented

627
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: congregation as their associate rabbi, but as a major part

628
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: of the clergy team. This is where Judaism diverges from Christianity.

629
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: In Judaism, we don't believe that life begins at conception.

630
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: We believe that life begins at first viable breath. So

631
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: as soon as a child is able to exit the

632
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: womb and is able to take a first breath and

633
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: is viable to take that first breath, that is when

634
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: that life truly begins. So in Judaism, when it comes

635
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: to abortion and it comes to the pregnant person, that

636
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 1: individual is the life that is prioritized. And so when

637
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: it comes to pekuah nafeesh, the the value of saving

638
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: of life, of preserving a life, that is the life

639
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: that we prioritize. So in a situation where you have

640
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: a pregnant person who has either had a terrible traumatizing

641
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,919
Speaker 1: experience that caused them to become pregnant, or they find

642
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: themselves pregnant and know that they cannot men toe or

643
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: physically carry this child, or they know that they cannot

644
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: care for this child after the child is born, or

645
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: they know that they won't be able to endure forty

646
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: plus weeks of this pregnancy. That is part of that

647
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: preserving of the life of that soul. It's not about

648
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: the fetus, who, according to Jewish tradition, does not have

649
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: the status as a living person. The Christian theology has

650
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: often taken over the conversation around faith and abortion because

651
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: so many Jews are are accepting and basically requiring and

652
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: demanding abortion access. It's not traditionally been something that we've

653
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: organized around. That's changed in the in recent years. The

654
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: National Council of Jewish Women has a scholar in residence

655
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: named Rabbi Dania Ruttenberg who focuses entirely on abortion access

656
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: and actually organizing Jews around this particular effort. One of

657
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: the things that the Jewish world has started to change

658
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: as far as the way we approach this subject is

659
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: it's actually a violation of our religious freedom to not

660
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: have access to abortion, because we fully support abortion access

661
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: and the rights of reproductive justice, and it is actually

662
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: it's actually deterring our ability to practice our faith because

663
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: if you go back and look at our text, it

664
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: says there are certain situations where you absolutely must provide

665
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 1: an abortion and this goes back thousands of years, and

666
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: by not allowing us that opportunity that right, we are

667
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: not actually allowed to practice our religion to its fullness.

668
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: I grew up in a very conservative, white Evangelical church,

669
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: so I'm very familiar with a theological framework that's very

670
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: cut and dry, that things are this, they're not that.

671
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: God is this or God isn't. I'm Reverend Katie's, I'm

672
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: an ordained Baptist minister, and I'm the CEO of the

673
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice or our c r C,

674
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 1: as we fondly call it. There is a certain comfort

675
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: and having a sense of security that if I simply

676
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: follow these rules, then my life will be wonderful. And

677
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: I subscribe to that for a long time until I

678
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: had experiences that disrupted that framework and showed me that

679
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: I actually didn't have the kind of certainty that I

680
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: thought that I did, and that required me to do

681
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: a lot of soul searching around what does it mean

682
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: to be a faithful person with a different kind of

683
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: theological framework that allows for nuance and complexity. So I

684
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: think it's just as much about how we approach those

685
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,919
Speaker 1: conversations as it is the content and I really try

686
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: in my work not to fall into debate. What ends

687
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: up happening is if we don't talk about the real

688
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: people who are being impacted, it becomes an abstract, ideological conversation.

689
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: It's so wrong when we lose the focus on on

690
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,959
Speaker 1: the real human beings in front of us. The way

691
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: that we talk about abortion, even on the pro choice side,

692
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: can often be really stigmatizing. We often talk about only

693
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: the most extreme cases where a person's bodily autonomy has

694
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 1: been violated, or we talk about it as if it's

695
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: always a difficult decision for people, and that those things

696
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: are true, but they don't encompass the full spectrum of

697
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: people's experiences. And I think talking about how abortion can

698
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: be such a positive thing for people. It can be

699
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: life saving for one and lots of different ways, but

700
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: also it can be a catalyst for really important changes

701
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: in a person's life. Abortion is a blessing. Access to

702
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: abortion is a blessing. The ability to make a reproductive

703
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: decision is a right and a blessing. So as I'm

704
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: talking to folks who maybe are struggling, I think storytelling

705
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: is really essential, and not just storytelling of other people,

706
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: but really asking folks, what is your reproductive story? What

707
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: is your family's reproductive story? It does not take much

708
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: digging below the surface to hear painful stories of reproductive

709
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: loss regarding infertility or pregnancy loss, or just someone who

710
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: was never able to create the family that they wanted.

711
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: There are stories of adoption that are traumatic. Everybody has

712
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: a story around this, and I think that that can

713
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: be a way to create that heart connection is allowing

714
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: people to tell whatever their story is. There just isn't

715
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: space for people to share these things, and I think

716
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: the first step in feeling ourselves and our communities as

717
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: just holding space for people to share. Another faith based

718
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: organization focused on reproductive rights is called Sacred. I am

719
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: Reverend connetitition Way. I am the faith Advocacy coordinator for

720
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: Sister Song, the Woman of Color Reproductive Justice Collective. I

721
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: am also the national co chair for Sacred. We are

722
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: encouraging brave conversations um not just among faith leaders, but

723
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: faithful people to give voice to those who actually already

724
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: believe in reproductive rights, health and justice, but feel afraid

725
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: of what voicing that may cause. UM. So, I feel

726
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: like what Sacred really is trying to do is give

727
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: people the language UM to stand firm in their faith

728
00:48:54,280 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: around this subject. My lived experience UM is what brought

729
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: me to this work, and that's why I do it. UM.

730
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: I understand what it's like to be told that your

731
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: very existence is a sin. If I don't understand anything else,

732
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: theological interpretation is that is just that it is UH

733
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: open to interpretation by the lens of those who read it.

734
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: But the one thing that we are pretty much all

735
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: clear about in terms of our traditions of love is

736
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: that we are supposed to love one another, and we

737
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: are supposed to be compassionate to one another, and we're

738
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: not supposed to judge one another. If I don't know

739
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: anything else, that much, I do know and so UM,

740
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: I will always approach uh any subject from that lens

741
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: of how can I be compassionate in this moment while

742
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: someone is navigating UM what is best for their lives?

743
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: UM and so? And I know that is a direct

744
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: result of having to navigate UM being queer and black

745
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: and Caribbean and a woman in a world that said

746
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: that most of those things were unacceptable. Being introduced to

747
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: and embracing the framework of reproductive justice really does expand

748
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: the possibility of understanding the moral good of abortion. We

749
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: it reproductive justice. Do believe in the human right for

750
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: everyone to have a child, to not have a child,

751
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: the parent the children that they have, in safe, sustainable communities,

752
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: free from interpersonal and stink state sanctioned violence, and to

753
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: have bodily autonomy. And if you believe in that, if

754
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: you believe in those tenants, then you understand that bodily autonomy,

755
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: which is what we're talking about when we're talking about

756
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: making reproductive choices, for our eyes, is just as morally

757
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: sound as having a child, not having a child, and

758
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: raising the children that you have. It can't be separated out,

759
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: it can't be made other um and the only people

760
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: who benefit from it being made other are those who

761
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: seek to divide for political expediency. And as Jamie Manson shared,

762
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: the reproductive justice framework has also been helpful for the

763
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: work Catholics for Choice does in their communities. For a

764
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: lot of Catholics who have a very rich understanding of

765
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: social justice because it's in our tradition and they were

766
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: raised in it, that is very eye opening as well

767
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: when we really put it in that context that abortion

768
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: is a decision that affects the entire trajectory of a

769
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: woman's life. Is not just about bodily autonomy. It's about

770
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: you know, every everything, you know, the every It's so

771
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: consequential for every aspect, and it intersects with almost every

772
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: issue of social justice that a lot of Catholics care about.

773
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: So when you put it in that context, my goodness, UM,

774
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: you see the lights go on, um and you see

775
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: people realizing, okay, like this, you know, like I am,

776
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: I do support abortion access um and I found my

777
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: place in this movement again, Reverend Katie's a I think

778
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: that part of being a person of faith is the

779
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: practice of hope. And I say a practice because it's

780
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: not a feeling all of the time, it's a discipline.

781
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: And I've been talking about hope as being something that

782
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: we hold in community and not just individually. And I

783
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: think what's so important about holding hope in community is

784
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 1: that the vision needs to be informed by the people

785
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: who are being most impacted by the injustice. And I

786
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: also think that what the reproductive Justice framework has done

787
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: for me is really identify the larger what we call

788
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: white Christian nationalist political agenda that has never been used

789
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: about abortion, has really been about the control of bodies

790
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: and maintaining power over our bodies, and so I'm really

791
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: grateful to the ways that that framework expanded my own understanding.

792
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: That is not enough to only focusing on any one

793
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: particular issue, but to really see it within this broader

794
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: framework of just what it means to be a human

795
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: being and who wants to flourish. We'll be right back.

796
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: My name is Sue and I am a forty nine

797
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: year old woman from Wisconsin, and I've spent my career

798
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: in ministry in various different capacities. I am now a

799
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: single mother of four children. I'm divorced, and yeah, it's

800
00:53:54,920 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: probably about it. So I was twenty one. I was

801
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: in graduate school at a seminary, and I was young

802
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: from my class because I had didn't high school three years.

803
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: I became involved with a fellow classmate who was there

804
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: as a second career. He had been an attorney. He

805
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: was thirty six years old, UM and going through a divorce,

806
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: and I we I thought I was madly in love.

807
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: He claimed he was madly in love. And we talked

808
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: about marriage from the very beginning of our relationship and kids.

809
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: UM big part because he told me that he was

810
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: getting divorced because his wife didn't want children and he

811
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: really wanted kids. So that was a huge part of

812
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: that um. Probably about eight months inter relationship, it got

813
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: a little rocky and found out, probably I was right

814
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: around Thanksgiving that I was pregnant, and his immediate response was, well,

815
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: you don't, you have to do And I was floored

816
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: by that. I thought, well, we've been talking about getting married,

817
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: we'll get married, and what is you know, where did

818
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: that come from. I was just blindsided by that. Immediately

819
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: started saying, you know, if your parents find out, they

820
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: will just disown you. They will never let you live

821
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: that down. So there was just this immediate separating me

822
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: from my family, from my friends, from my loved ones.

823
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: And we went to a planned parenthood and had that's

824
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: where I had my initial pregnancy tests where they confirmed that,

825
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: and so I had the abortion. It was a Saturday morning,

826
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: was January six, and he got me back to his apartment,

827
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 1: took care of me for a day, and then dropped

828
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: me back off at my dorm and I think just thought,

829
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: boom boom and wash his hands with me. I never

830
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 1: told my parents. They knew something was wrong, but I

831
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: just I still lived in that they'll be bad, they'll

832
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: down me kind of thing. A couple of months later,

833
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: he sent me a letter on this stationary letterhead from

834
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: his law firm, demanding that I pay him back for

835
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: the abortion. And at that point I just I didn't

836
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: know where to turn. I just felt lost. And I

837
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: went to our campus pastor, who it was fantastic and said,

838
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: you know what would help you the most right now?

839
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: And I said, I think telling my parents. And I

840
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: drove to my parents that night and they were fantastic,

841
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: and they they, yeah, it's loved me. And you know,

842
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: I asked him at that point, what would you have

843
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: wanted me to do? And my mom, who I had

844
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,479
Speaker 1: never thought in a million years would say this, said

845
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: exactly what you did. You have a life ahead of you.

846
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: So that was sort of the beginning of my I

847
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: think owning it, acknowledging and owning it. The school the

848
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: attorney made a deal with him basically I said, I'll

849
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: give him the money, but and he could never contact me,

850
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: sort of an agreement, so I had no contact with

851
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:47,479
Speaker 1: him after that. Um, yeah, I think. You know, there's

852
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: long periods of time where you are you don't think

853
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: about it at all. I have an eighteen year old

854
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: daughter now, so then now I think about it because

855
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: she's completely riled up about the last few days and

856
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: couldn't be prouder for starters. But I think young women

857
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: that I've known along the way, I would never I

858
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: would never encourage it. But at the same time, I

859
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: would never discourage I think it's such an individual thing,

860
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: so for any of us to make a blanket statement

861
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: of right or wrong, none of us have that right

862
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: to do that, or to say one way or another

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00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: for each person. I think, at the end of the day,

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00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: the shame I think I probably did have shame, which

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Speaker 1: I think was completely unfounded. What I did was completely legal.

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00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: There was nothing illegal about what I did. But then

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Speaker 1: why why don't I talk about it more freely? And

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Speaker 1: I hate that there's that stigma for anybody to not

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Speaker 1: be able to say I did this, because at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, I've ever thought of it as

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00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: I killed a human. I've never thought of it that way.

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00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: Is I don't believe that whole life beginning at conception,

873
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, it was a

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00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: very life giving part of my life. And I think

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00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: for so many women like, how can you not say

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00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: it was to have that second chance and to be

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00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: able to go live your best life. I think it's

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00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:41,479
Speaker 1: that was probably my first experience of never assume what's

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00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: going on in someone else's life. I think, um it

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00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: has made me a much more compassionate person, especially in

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00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: my ministry roles of who are we to judge? And

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00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a huge part of it. Right, we're

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Speaker 1: almost at the end of this series and wanted to

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Speaker 1: hear what you think. You can call this number one

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Speaker 1: eight four four for seven nine seven eight eight three

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01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: and leave us a message about how you're feeling, or

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01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: perhaps actions you're taking, or even things you've learned or

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01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: want to share about abortion. Your message might be included

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01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: in a future episode. Again, that number is one eight

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Speaker 1: four four for seven nine seven eight eight three. Abortion

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Speaker 1: The Body Politic is executive produced by me Katie Couric

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01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: and was created by small team led by our intrepid

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01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: supervising producer Lauren Hansen. Editing and sound designed by Derrick Clements,

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01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: research by knee A Perlman. Production and editing help for

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01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: this episode from Mary do Translation help from Carlo Martinez

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01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: and Marcy Deepina, and a special thanks to case Um

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01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: producers Courtney Litz and Adriana Fasio.