1
00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:26,410
Speaker 1: Pushkin, London, the first of July nineteen o nine. It's

2
00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:31,250
Speaker 1: South Kensington, a quiet but immensely wealthy neighborhood full of

3
00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:38,530
Speaker 1: grand townhouses even mansions. This particular evening, a retired army officer,

4
00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:43,650
Speaker 1: William Hutt Curzon Wiley, is attending a grand reception at

5
00:00:43,690 --> 00:00:50,850
Speaker 1: the palatial Imperial Institute, celebrating his efforts assisting students from India.

6
00:00:51,210 --> 00:00:54,970
Speaker 1: As the evening draws to a close, Curzon Wiley leaves

7
00:00:55,010 --> 00:00:59,050
Speaker 1: the venue and begins to walk down the elegant steps

8
00:00:59,090 --> 00:01:04,970
Speaker 1: of the Imperial Institute. Suddenly, a young Indian man in

9
00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:10,250
Speaker 1: gold rimmed spectacles steps forward, raises a pistol, and shoots

10
00:01:10,290 --> 00:01:13,330
Speaker 1: him twice in the face. As the old man sinks

11
00:01:13,330 --> 00:01:17,770
Speaker 1: to the floor, his assailant keeps shooting. A Parsi doctor

12
00:01:17,850 --> 00:01:22,930
Speaker 1: rushes to help. The young man turns, aims and kills

13
00:01:22,970 --> 00:01:30,570
Speaker 1: him too. The assassin was acting alone, but he wasn't

14
00:01:30,610 --> 00:01:33,850
Speaker 1: the only person to feel that the only way to

15
00:01:33,930 --> 00:01:38,810
Speaker 1: break the British occupation of India was with a violent uprising.

16
00:01:39,530 --> 00:01:42,250
Speaker 1: The assassin lived in a house in North London with

17
00:01:42,450 --> 00:01:47,330
Speaker 1: dozens of other young Indian men. They'd been practicing violent

18
00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:51,450
Speaker 1: resistance together how to fire a rifle, how to make weapons,

19
00:01:52,330 --> 00:01:56,130
Speaker 1: how to evade the police. One of those housemates, a

20
00:01:56,170 --> 00:01:59,890
Speaker 1: man called Byron, wrote a letter to the Times of

21
00:01:59,930 --> 00:02:05,370
Speaker 1: London supporting the assassin. Barron secretly visited him in prison,

22
00:02:05,970 --> 00:02:12,450
Speaker 1: then fled the country. The assassination had been senseless, no

23
00:02:12,530 --> 00:02:16,970
Speaker 1: matter how passionately you opposed the British Empire. Coursin Wiley

24
00:02:17,170 --> 00:02:21,010
Speaker 1: was a harmless old man. The assassin had killed him

25
00:02:21,090 --> 00:02:24,610
Speaker 1: in cold blood, and a bystander who'd only tried to

26
00:02:24,650 --> 00:02:29,170
Speaker 1: help and would a violent murder prompt the British to

27
00:02:29,210 --> 00:02:34,570
Speaker 1: rethink their role in India or to crack down. But

28
00:02:34,770 --> 00:02:39,090
Speaker 1: this cautionary tale isn't about the assassin or about his

29
00:02:39,210 --> 00:02:43,290
Speaker 1: sympathizer Bern. It's about someone who found a different way

30
00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:50,410
Speaker 1: to bring about revolutionary change. Barren's sister, the woman called Sorgeny.

31
00:02:52,170 --> 00:03:24,610
Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford and you're listening to cautionary tales. She's

32
00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:28,610
Speaker 1: a slight woman, not even five feet tall. The long

33
00:03:28,810 --> 00:03:32,370
Speaker 1: end of her sari is pulled over her head. The

34
00:03:32,410 --> 00:03:37,450
Speaker 1: expression on her face is apprehensive. There's a long row

35
00:03:37,490 --> 00:03:41,890
Speaker 1: of marchers behind her, all wearing white. They followed Sir

36
00:03:41,970 --> 00:03:47,090
Speaker 1: Augeny Naidu to the coast to make salt, but they've

37
00:03:47,090 --> 00:03:51,090
Speaker 1: stopped now outside a British controlled saltwork on the northwest

38
00:03:51,170 --> 00:03:55,530
Speaker 1: coast of India. The Arabian Sea shimmers just a few

39
00:03:55,610 --> 00:04:00,210
Speaker 1: hundred yards ahead, but the marcher's path is blocked by

40
00:04:00,210 --> 00:04:04,130
Speaker 1: the barbed wire that's wrapped around the saltworks and by

41
00:04:04,210 --> 00:04:10,450
Speaker 1: sixty policemen, all holding steel tipped clubs, and soldiers too,

42
00:04:10,610 --> 00:04:15,170
Speaker 1: with heavy rifles pointed at the marchers. The year is

43
00:04:15,330 --> 00:04:20,530
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, twenty one years after the assassination in South Kensington.

44
00:04:21,290 --> 00:04:25,290
Speaker 1: The great campaigner for India's independence from the British Empire,

45
00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:30,610
Speaker 1: Mahatma Gandhi, is in jail. The successor he's chosen to

46
00:04:30,730 --> 00:04:36,650
Speaker 1: lead India's independence movement is Sir Erogeny Nidu. Naidu and

47
00:04:36,730 --> 00:04:41,730
Speaker 1: her marchers want vast change against a hard opponent, and

48
00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:49,010
Speaker 1: they want it without violence. Sirrogeny has decisively rejected the

49
00:04:49,210 --> 00:04:54,410
Speaker 1: murderous approach that her brother Bren endorsed. India's fate, Nido

50
00:04:54,570 --> 00:05:00,490
Speaker 1: believes depends on a nonviolent path to resistance. She steps forward,

51
00:05:01,210 --> 00:05:05,130
Speaker 1: her marchers follow. There will be violence, to be sure,

52
00:05:06,450 --> 00:05:12,850
Speaker 1: but it won't come from them. This is the final

53
00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:16,690
Speaker 1: episode in our series. Inspired by the work of David Badanis.

54
00:05:17,450 --> 00:05:20,610
Speaker 1: This story comes from his forthcoming book How to Change

55
00:05:20,650 --> 00:05:25,970
Speaker 1: the World Lessons from Three People Who did. When David

56
00:05:26,210 --> 00:05:31,250
Speaker 1: first told me Nidou's story, I was fascinated. Sirrogenny. Nidou

57
00:05:31,330 --> 00:05:35,410
Speaker 1: was an unlikely revolutionary. When she was growing up in

58
00:05:35,450 --> 00:05:40,930
Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties, her family worshiped England. In her childhood

59
00:05:40,930 --> 00:05:45,850
Speaker 1: home in Hyderabad, volumes of Shakespeare and Wordsworth filled their shelves.

60
00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:50,730
Speaker 1: Stories of Britain's military and intellectual heroes came up frequently

61
00:05:50,770 --> 00:05:55,850
Speaker 1: in conversation. Servants might speak native languages, but with her

62
00:05:55,890 --> 00:05:59,810
Speaker 1: own brothers and sisters, Nidou said, it was considered the

63
00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:05,730
Speaker 1: height of ignorance and misfortune not to be acquainted with English.

64
00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:09,330
Speaker 1: She grew up believing it was fair for Indians to

65
00:06:09,370 --> 00:06:14,970
Speaker 1: be colonized. By that time, Britain had controlled India for generations.

66
00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:18,570
Speaker 1: That control was more forceful in some parts of the country,

67
00:06:18,650 --> 00:06:22,090
Speaker 1: with garrisons of troops and machine guns and artillery at hand.

68
00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:28,490
Speaker 1: In other areas, British control was wielded indirectly through local

69
00:06:28,530 --> 00:06:32,210
Speaker 1: princes who were ostensibly in power but who knew they

70
00:06:32,330 --> 00:06:36,690
Speaker 1: had to do what the local British representatives wanted, and

71
00:06:36,810 --> 00:06:41,210
Speaker 1: Naido thought this was a fine thing. As one Hindu

72
00:06:41,330 --> 00:06:46,130
Speaker 1: elder she looked up to explained Man for Mann the Englisher,

73
00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:49,810
Speaker 1: better than ourselves. They have a higher standard of duty,

74
00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:56,250
Speaker 1: higher notions of organized work and discipline. As a teenager,

75
00:06:56,770 --> 00:07:02,010
Speaker 1: Nido got a scholarship to study in Cambridge. When she

76
00:07:02,090 --> 00:07:06,290
Speaker 1: landed in Britain in eighteen ninety six, just seventeen years

77
00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:10,770
Speaker 1: old and terribly shy, she discovered but even more reasons

78
00:07:10,850 --> 00:07:14,650
Speaker 1: to look up to the British. There were underground tubes

79
00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:18,730
Speaker 1: for trains that cut through the very soil beneath her feet.

80
00:07:18,930 --> 00:07:23,370
Speaker 1: There were complex vehicles that propelled themselves without horses. The

81
00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:30,090
Speaker 1: future had arrived. Everything seemed incredible. She took the train

82
00:07:30,210 --> 00:07:32,690
Speaker 1: on to Cambridge, where she was going to study at

83
00:07:32,690 --> 00:07:36,570
Speaker 1: the Women's College Girton. After her first day, she wrote

84
00:07:36,610 --> 00:07:41,370
Speaker 1: to her boyfriend at home, effectively her fiancee, and told him,

85
00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:44,490
Speaker 1: everybody makes a pet of me, though I've been here

86
00:07:44,570 --> 00:07:47,690
Speaker 1: only a few hours. You see, I am by far

87
00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:52,210
Speaker 1: the youngest and the curiosity. She was touched when the

88
00:07:52,250 --> 00:07:56,290
Speaker 1: girls invited her for bicycle trips to the all male colleges.

89
00:07:56,970 --> 00:08:01,050
Speaker 1: Those bicycles were a revolutionary invention, giving women a real

90
00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:05,090
Speaker 1: sense of independence for the first time, even if senior

91
00:08:05,170 --> 00:08:10,890
Speaker 1: faculty would ride alongside as chaperone's. Even more exciting than

92
00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:14,690
Speaker 1: the bicycles was getting to meet the male students, the

93
00:08:14,770 --> 00:08:18,690
Speaker 1: best of whom might rule her country. One day, she

94
00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:21,690
Speaker 1: wrote to her family breathlessly about how they were so

95
00:08:21,970 --> 00:08:30,210
Speaker 1: educated and so civilized. Everything might have stayed like that,

96
00:08:30,650 --> 00:08:35,490
Speaker 1: with Nido remaining a proud subject of Queen Victoria's empire.

97
00:08:36,490 --> 00:08:40,570
Speaker 1: But it turned out that although women at Cambridge could

98
00:08:40,610 --> 00:08:45,490
Speaker 1: attend lectures and take exams, they weren't allowed to receive degrees.

99
00:08:46,450 --> 00:08:49,850
Speaker 1: If a woman studied biology, for example, she might be

100
00:08:49,930 --> 00:08:53,170
Speaker 1: top in the exams, but since she wouldn't get a diploma,

101
00:08:53,650 --> 00:08:57,170
Speaker 1: she could never go on to become a doctor. One

102
00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:02,290
Speaker 1: energetic young classics lecturer at Nidoo's College, a woman named

103
00:09:02,450 --> 00:09:06,810
Speaker 1: Catherine jex Blake, was fed up with this system. She

104
00:09:06,930 --> 00:09:10,050
Speaker 1: was a suffragette and she thought women should have the

105
00:09:10,090 --> 00:09:14,570
Speaker 1: same rights as everyone else. She lobbied successfully to have

106
00:09:14,610 --> 00:09:19,130
Speaker 1: the university vote on changing their policy. A date was

107
00:09:19,170 --> 00:09:25,890
Speaker 1: set in May. Undergraduates couldn't vote, but male faculty and

108
00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:31,170
Speaker 1: alumni could, and special trains were arranged to bring former

109
00:09:31,250 --> 00:09:36,010
Speaker 1: students from London to Cambridge. By early afternoon on May

110
00:09:36,050 --> 00:09:40,130
Speaker 1: the twenty first voting day, over a thousand voters had

111
00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:43,490
Speaker 1: passed through the Senate House. There was a crush of

112
00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:49,090
Speaker 1: many thousand more students pressed outside, mostly men, a few women.

113
00:09:51,290 --> 00:09:54,050
Speaker 1: Just as the result was to be announced, a group

114
00:09:54,090 --> 00:09:57,170
Speaker 1: of students on the roof of Keyes College across the

115
00:09:57,210 --> 00:10:01,330
Speaker 1: way mockingly let out the sound of a vigorous cock crow.

116
00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:07,290
Speaker 1: This was the signal, wrote one witness, for the commencement

117
00:10:07,650 --> 00:10:13,090
Speaker 1: of operations. Occupants of the front rooms at Keys immediately

118
00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:16,930
Speaker 1: began to hang out banners that mocked women. Other male

119
00:10:17,010 --> 00:10:20,370
Speaker 1: students leaned out of an upstairs window and started a

120
00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:24,690
Speaker 1: lowering a pape mache figure of a woman life size,

121
00:10:25,050 --> 00:10:29,050
Speaker 1: an effigy that'd made it with bright red hair, looking

122
00:10:29,130 --> 00:10:32,810
Speaker 1: silly in a cap and gown. Another group of students

123
00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:38,410
Speaker 1: at another upstairs window brought out another effigy, this time

124
00:10:38,490 --> 00:10:43,290
Speaker 1: of a woman straddling that symbol of female freedom, a bicycle.

125
00:10:44,090 --> 00:10:47,730
Speaker 1: They'd torn her dress off so she was exposed humiliatingly

126
00:10:47,930 --> 00:10:52,050
Speaker 1: in her underwear, and then painted the underwear bright blue,

127
00:10:52,450 --> 00:10:56,810
Speaker 1: so no one could miss it down below. The men

128
00:10:57,050 --> 00:11:01,770
Speaker 1: started jeering. When the result was announced women would not

129
00:11:02,210 --> 00:11:08,930
Speaker 1: be granted degrees, pandemonium broke loose. The bicyclist effigy figure

130
00:11:08,970 --> 00:11:12,690
Speaker 1: was lowered to the ground. Hundreds of undergraduate men struggled

131
00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:16,850
Speaker 1: forward to attack it, tearing at its exposed body. Then

132
00:11:16,890 --> 00:11:19,050
Speaker 1: they put it on top of a cow and went

133
00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:22,570
Speaker 1: on a journey around the town. Crowds of male students

134
00:11:22,570 --> 00:11:27,770
Speaker 1: and graduates ran alongside, blowing horns and yelling out the

135
00:11:27,770 --> 00:11:30,330
Speaker 1: rest of the men at the Senate House vote started

136
00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:34,450
Speaker 1: running through the town too. Women everywhere were groped or

137
00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:38,170
Speaker 1: pressed up against walls. Others were tugged into the mob

138
00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:42,130
Speaker 1: and flung around for fun. Seemingly every man on the

139
00:11:42,170 --> 00:11:47,410
Speaker 1: street was rabid wild. These were the future rulers of

140
00:11:47,530 --> 00:11:53,010
Speaker 1: Naidoo's land. Now they were humiliating every woman they could catch.

141
00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:58,690
Speaker 1: A large group of men ended up outside another women's college,

142
00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:03,210
Speaker 1: where they were shouting of senaties and throwing fireworks into

143
00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:07,130
Speaker 1: the girl's windows. They rammed fragments of the effigy through

144
00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:11,410
Speaker 1: the cottage gates. They stayed for hours, setting up a

145
00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:17,250
Speaker 1: bonfire in front of the building, trapping the women inside. Meanwhile,

146
00:12:17,490 --> 00:12:20,730
Speaker 1: an even bigger group of students police estimates were in

147
00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:25,450
Speaker 1: the thousands, brought other life sized female effiges to the

148
00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:30,010
Speaker 1: main market square in Cambridge. One was of the tutor

149
00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:34,770
Speaker 1: at Naidu's college, Katherine jex Blake, the one who'd dared

150
00:12:34,850 --> 00:12:40,010
Speaker 1: petition for the degrees. These effiges, too, were stripped and

151
00:12:40,170 --> 00:12:45,810
Speaker 1: mutilated before being burnt in another bonfire. The men kept

152
00:12:45,970 --> 00:12:51,370
Speaker 1: on adding fresh fuel. The flames and the jeering went

153
00:12:51,450 --> 00:13:04,930
Speaker 1: on long into the night. Cambridge's women had merely asked

154
00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:08,930
Speaker 1: to be awarded the degrees their studies and examinations deserved.

155
00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:14,330
Speaker 1: They hadn't even succeeded, and yet the very idea of

156
00:13:14,370 --> 00:13:21,450
Speaker 1: this sparked hour after hour of harassment, humiliation and riot.

157
00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:34,450
Speaker 1: Cautionary tales will return in just a moment. On the

158
00:13:34,490 --> 00:13:38,090
Speaker 1: morning of May the twenty first, Naidoo had been polite

159
00:13:38,370 --> 00:13:44,210
Speaker 1: and trusting, thinking British culture the pinnacle of civilization around

160
00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:47,970
Speaker 1: the world. But by the end of the day her

161
00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:53,730
Speaker 1: British idol had fallen. What right did men like that

162
00:13:54,130 --> 00:13:58,930
Speaker 1: have to control her people at all? Over the next

163
00:13:59,010 --> 00:14:03,730
Speaker 1: few days it became clear she had to leave Cambridge.

164
00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:09,650
Speaker 1: Something deeper became clear too, she couldn't be a pawn

165
00:14:09,810 --> 00:14:16,690
Speaker 1: in this empire anymore. Sir Rogereny went to London and

166
00:14:16,810 --> 00:14:19,490
Speaker 1: spent time with a number of writers, including the great

167
00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:23,650
Speaker 1: Irish poet Yates, who happened to be her friend's roommate.

168
00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:28,370
Speaker 1: They met at home for drinks and conversation, and she

169
00:14:28,490 --> 00:14:31,890
Speaker 1: was impressed with the way he was inspiring Irish nationalists

170
00:14:32,050 --> 00:14:36,890
Speaker 1: with the force and eloquence of his writing. Why should

171
00:14:37,010 --> 00:14:43,410
Speaker 1: Ireland be subservient to England? For that matter, why should India?

172
00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:49,970
Speaker 1: Naido was inspired too, and encouraged that someone of Yates's

173
00:14:50,050 --> 00:14:55,450
Speaker 1: stature would take a young Indian woman seriously. The Cambridge

174
00:14:55,530 --> 00:14:59,330
Speaker 1: riots had shown her a dark truth about the alleged

175
00:14:59,450 --> 00:15:03,770
Speaker 1: superiority of the British, but London reminded her that the

176
00:15:03,810 --> 00:15:08,770
Speaker 1: British weren't all bad. Many Britons were open to reason,

177
00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:15,930
Speaker 1: to the arguments for fairness. Sir Rogerie Naidoo was nineteen

178
00:15:16,090 --> 00:15:20,450
Speaker 1: years old when she returned to India and determined to

179
00:15:20,570 --> 00:15:26,290
Speaker 1: push back against British rule in Hyderabad. However, her partner

180
00:15:26,410 --> 00:15:31,250
Speaker 1: Gorvindhu expected they would quickly get married and start having children,

181
00:15:31,810 --> 00:15:37,250
Speaker 1: which they did soon. She was a housewife, her whole

182
00:15:37,330 --> 00:15:42,930
Speaker 1: life enclosed. She started writing poetry, but with little children

183
00:15:42,970 --> 00:15:45,810
Speaker 1: it was hard to find much time. There was a

184
00:15:45,890 --> 00:15:50,250
Speaker 1: verandah with a swing where she could look out decorated

185
00:15:50,330 --> 00:15:57,250
Speaker 1: cages with chirping songbirds inside. Everyone thinks I'm so nice

186
00:15:57,290 --> 00:16:03,050
Speaker 1: and cheerful, She wrote all the banal things. But I've

187
00:16:03,090 --> 00:16:08,530
Speaker 1: merely taught myself to be commonplace. Everything is slipping away.

188
00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:14,330
Speaker 1: After all she had seen in England, after all that

189
00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:18,250
Speaker 1: she recognized was still going on in India, it felt

190
00:16:18,690 --> 00:16:27,570
Speaker 1: terrible to be passive. Right outside Hyderabad, for example, there

191
00:16:27,610 --> 00:16:32,450
Speaker 1: was a large British military base. Just by their presence,

192
00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:36,930
Speaker 1: they made sure that industries and rail lines were arranged

193
00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:41,970
Speaker 1: to benefit investors in England, not farmers or other workers

194
00:16:42,010 --> 00:16:46,250
Speaker 1: in India. She had to find another way to work

195
00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:51,890
Speaker 1: toward freedom from British rule. Could politics be the answer?

196
00:16:52,730 --> 00:16:57,210
Speaker 1: When her children were older, Sir Orogini Naidu immersed herself

197
00:16:57,210 --> 00:17:01,970
Speaker 1: in the Indian National Congress, a group dominated by Bengali

198
00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:08,570
Speaker 1: intellectuals who politely, calmly lobbied the British government for fairer treatment.

199
00:17:09,850 --> 00:17:14,290
Speaker 1: It's there where. Despite her terrible shyness and slight stature,

200
00:17:15,050 --> 00:17:19,650
Speaker 1: Naidou discovered that speaking out in public, she felt different.

201
00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:24,810
Speaker 1: What is it that we demand, she called out from

202
00:17:24,850 --> 00:17:30,730
Speaker 1: one podium, Nothing new, nothing startling, but a thing that

203
00:17:30,930 --> 00:17:36,530
Speaker 1: is as old as life. You shouldn't be disinherited as

204
00:17:36,690 --> 00:17:41,530
Speaker 1: exiles in your own land. The day is over when

205
00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:47,970
Speaker 1: we were content to be slaves. Finally, it seemed she

206
00:17:48,050 --> 00:17:52,170
Speaker 1: had found the right way forward. During the First World War,

207
00:17:52,650 --> 00:17:55,730
Speaker 1: she pushed to get India to support the British cause,

208
00:17:56,370 --> 00:18:01,410
Speaker 1: trusting that afterwards, in reward, the subcontinent would be awarded

209
00:18:01,650 --> 00:18:05,330
Speaker 1: dominion status, that it would have more freedom from British

210
00:18:05,410 --> 00:18:11,050
Speaker 1: rule as Canada in New Zealand. Had everything seemed agreed,

211
00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:16,410
Speaker 1: London was on board, but at the last minute, just

212
00:18:16,650 --> 00:18:21,770
Speaker 1: after the war ended, the British Empire's most senior representative

213
00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:27,050
Speaker 1: in India, the Viceroy, undermined it all. There would be

214
00:18:27,210 --> 00:18:32,690
Speaker 1: no relaxation of the rules and no dominion status. He

215
00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:35,330
Speaker 1: wanted everything to go back to how it had been

216
00:18:35,410 --> 00:18:39,450
Speaker 1: before the war. In fact, there would now be harsher rules,

217
00:18:40,410 --> 00:18:43,850
Speaker 1: the rights to arrest anyone with no trial, and no

218
00:18:44,050 --> 00:18:50,250
Speaker 1: controls against torture. Indians across the continent began to protest,

219
00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:57,890
Speaker 1: but the protests were disconnected not especially organized. On the

220
00:18:57,970 --> 00:19:02,730
Speaker 1: thirteenth of April nineteen nineteen, a large crowd gathered in

221
00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:06,370
Speaker 1: the Jalianwala gardens in the center of the old city

222
00:19:06,490 --> 00:19:11,450
Speaker 1: of Mritzar in the Punjab region. Many were families in

223
00:19:11,530 --> 00:19:15,170
Speaker 1: town for a cattle festival. Some were meeting to discuss

224
00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:19,530
Speaker 1: the new legislation, others were just enjoying the sunny day.

225
00:19:20,810 --> 00:19:24,530
Speaker 1: The garden was mostly dried out and a few acres

226
00:19:24,570 --> 00:19:28,850
Speaker 1: in size. Since families were large, there were a lot

227
00:19:28,850 --> 00:19:36,970
Speaker 1: of children, perhaps fifteen thousand people total. To Major General

228
00:19:37,210 --> 00:19:41,370
Speaker 1: Reginald Dyer, the man in charge of the city, this

229
00:19:41,890 --> 00:19:49,490
Speaker 1: wasn't local citizenry at ease or even patriotism. It was fanaticism.

230
00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:52,890
Speaker 1: He had put up a handful of notices that meetings

231
00:19:52,930 --> 00:19:57,330
Speaker 1: weren't allowed, but he didn't know amritz so well and

232
00:19:57,530 --> 00:20:02,810
Speaker 1: didn't realize that hardly anyone had seen them. Rather, he

233
00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:07,130
Speaker 1: was insistent that proper order was not to be thwarted.

234
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:11,610
Speaker 1: There was a ten foot high stone and brick wall

235
00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:16,370
Speaker 1: around most of the garden. At the one narrow entrance,

236
00:20:17,290 --> 00:20:23,930
Speaker 1: he parked armored car sideways on, blocking any exit. Then

237
00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:30,450
Speaker 1: he and his mostly Indian troops advanced inside, fifty of

238
00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:37,530
Speaker 1: them carrying heavy rifles. They didn't say anything, just took

239
00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:40,930
Speaker 1: up position on a slight rise. Once they were a

240
00:20:40,970 --> 00:20:45,410
Speaker 1: few yards in front of the crowd, a few of

241
00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:49,330
Speaker 1: the Sikhs near the front, with military training, had a

242
00:20:49,370 --> 00:20:54,090
Speaker 1: sudden ominous feeling and tried to get families near them

243
00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:58,730
Speaker 1: to begin walking out now, but this made no sense.

244
00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:06,690
Speaker 1: Hardly anyone had moved when, without warning Dyer had all

245
00:21:07,130 --> 00:21:14,370
Speaker 1: fifty of his men open fire, and they reloaded and

246
00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:19,570
Speaker 1: fired again and again till the thousands of shells they

247
00:21:19,610 --> 00:21:25,290
Speaker 1: had were all gone. It was the greatest massacre in

248
00:21:25,370 --> 00:21:29,810
Speaker 1: the history of British India, with probably five hundred or

249
00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:34,770
Speaker 1: more people dead. As one former Prime Minister Asquith called

250
00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:39,250
Speaker 1: it the worst in the history of our empire. From

251
00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:48,290
Speaker 1: its very inception. The Army justified its actions, arguing that

252
00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:51,770
Speaker 1: soldiers had been firing in self defense faced by a

253
00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:56,210
Speaker 1: violent mob. The response to the massacre from the authorities

254
00:21:56,250 --> 00:22:01,410
Speaker 1: in London was half hearted criticism. There was a few

255
00:22:01,450 --> 00:22:06,610
Speaker 1: weeks later that the young Indian assassin gunned down a

256
00:22:06,650 --> 00:22:11,130
Speaker 1: retired army officer and a good marat and doctor outside

257
00:22:11,130 --> 00:22:16,250
Speaker 1: a reception in South Kensington and to points like this

258
00:22:17,130 --> 00:22:22,010
Speaker 1: rock bottom that it's at tempting to give up. Sir

259
00:22:22,090 --> 00:22:25,850
Speaker 1: Rougerie Nidou had been working with the Indian National Congress

260
00:22:26,450 --> 00:22:30,970
Speaker 1: for over a decade and she saw clearly that lobbying

261
00:22:31,010 --> 00:22:36,050
Speaker 1: and negotiation did no good. Her brother bern had endorsed

262
00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:41,570
Speaker 1: random murderous violence. That was no good either. But then

263
00:22:42,730 --> 00:22:47,730
Speaker 1: what was left Nido had to find a different path,

264
00:22:48,610 --> 00:22:54,210
Speaker 1: and for that she turned to Gandhi. Naido and Gandhi

265
00:22:54,330 --> 00:22:58,210
Speaker 1: had first met in nineteen fourteen and quickly became friends.

266
00:22:59,170 --> 00:23:01,890
Speaker 1: At the time, she was already the voice of the

267
00:23:01,930 --> 00:23:05,330
Speaker 1: Indian National Congress as well as a well reviewed poet.

268
00:23:06,170 --> 00:23:10,730
Speaker 1: Gandhi would later become world famous. Back then, he was

269
00:23:10,770 --> 00:23:15,530
Speaker 1: a little known activist based in South Africa. Five years

270
00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:21,290
Speaker 1: on after the massacred and Ritzer, Naido and Gandhi discussed

271
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:27,210
Speaker 1: their options. What if instead of violence or politics, you

272
00:23:27,370 --> 00:23:33,650
Speaker 1: directly oppose the way the authorities have arranged society, not viciously,

273
00:23:34,290 --> 00:23:39,170
Speaker 1: but so that it would make the injustice clear to everyone.

274
00:23:39,330 --> 00:23:46,450
Speaker 1: What about civil disobedience of an emphatic sort. New concepts

275
00:23:46,490 --> 00:23:53,450
Speaker 1: need new words. Setya is the Sanskrit for truth. Graha

276
00:23:53,970 --> 00:23:58,650
Speaker 1: means to hold firmly. The idea behind what was now

277
00:23:58,690 --> 00:24:04,450
Speaker 1: called Setyagraha is that an unjust law violates the right

278
00:24:04,930 --> 00:24:08,130
Speaker 1: order of the universe, and we need to rectify that

279
00:24:09,130 --> 00:24:11,690
Speaker 1: hold firmly to the truth, but in a manner that

280
00:24:11,890 --> 00:24:19,650
Speaker 1: doesn't create new injustices. In short, disobey but without violence,

281
00:24:24,130 --> 00:24:29,090
Speaker 1: a fair idea that, it turns out, is incredibly hard

282
00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:35,610
Speaker 1: to carry out in practice. In nineteen twenty one, Gandhi

283
00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:39,490
Speaker 1: and Naid targeted the visit of the Prince of Wales

284
00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:45,130
Speaker 1: to Bombay. Huge piles of imported British clothing were burned,

285
00:24:45,850 --> 00:24:48,770
Speaker 1: and as the Prince was welcomed into the port, he

286
00:24:48,810 --> 00:24:54,810
Speaker 1: found himself surrounded by protesters, politely but firmly demonstrating their

287
00:24:54,850 --> 00:25:00,130
Speaker 1: disapproval of British rule. What the protesters hadn't reckoned with

288
00:25:00,730 --> 00:25:03,850
Speaker 1: was the offense taken by the locals taking part in

289
00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:07,930
Speaker 1: the welcoming ceremonies. How could an honored guest be treated

290
00:25:08,050 --> 00:25:13,490
Speaker 1: so As those locals left, fights broke out between them

291
00:25:13,810 --> 00:25:17,370
Speaker 1: and the demonstrators, and when the police showed up, the

292
00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:22,210
Speaker 1: fights got worse. Once a mob is roused, it's hard

293
00:25:22,250 --> 00:25:27,530
Speaker 1: to stop. Soon almost anyone in Western clothes was being attacked,

294
00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:33,810
Speaker 1: the police counterattacked. Fighting of all sorts spread and lasted

295
00:25:33,890 --> 00:25:39,970
Speaker 1: for four days. By the end, dozens of innocent people

296
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:45,970
Speaker 1: were dead. It was awful, the reverse of everything I

297
00:25:46,090 --> 00:25:51,690
Speaker 1: do had hoped for. The vision for Sacha Grajo was

298
00:25:51,730 --> 00:25:56,930
Speaker 1: in jeopardy and with Gandhi often in jail, everyone was

299
00:25:57,010 --> 00:26:00,890
Speaker 1: looking to Sir Rogereni Nidol to help them figure out

300
00:26:01,450 --> 00:26:16,530
Speaker 1: what to do next. Cautionary tales will return. A few

301
00:26:16,690 --> 00:26:22,210
Speaker 1: years after the debacle in Bombay, Naidu was elected head

302
00:26:22,650 --> 00:26:27,010
Speaker 1: of the Indian National Congress. She was the first Indian

303
00:26:27,050 --> 00:26:33,290
Speaker 1: woman to reach that position. Responsibility for Indian independence sat

304
00:26:33,450 --> 00:26:38,090
Speaker 1: heavily on her shoulders. There had been little progress. The

305
00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,770
Speaker 1: country was still run for the benefit of the British

306
00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:47,250
Speaker 1: at the expense of Indians. One senior British politician was

307
00:26:47,530 --> 00:26:51,370
Speaker 1: at least honest about it. I know it is said

308
00:26:51,530 --> 00:26:55,530
Speaker 1: at missionary meetings that we've conquered India to raise the

309
00:26:55,610 --> 00:27:00,770
Speaker 1: level of the Indians. That is Kant. We conquered India

310
00:27:01,050 --> 00:27:04,650
Speaker 1: as the outlet for the goods of Great Britain. We

311
00:27:04,970 --> 00:27:09,650
Speaker 1: conquered India by the sword, and by the sword we

312
00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:15,330
Speaker 1: should hold it. In nineteen thirty the leadership of the

313
00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:20,850
Speaker 1: Indian National Congress decided to try to reclaim one small

314
00:27:20,970 --> 00:27:25,690
Speaker 1: piece of what Indians had lost under British rule salt.

315
00:27:27,010 --> 00:27:31,250
Speaker 1: For centuries, salt had been free, with anyone able to

316
00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:35,610
Speaker 1: collect whatever they needed, but when Britain took over, they

317
00:27:35,650 --> 00:27:38,810
Speaker 1: also took over salt production and put a tax on it.

318
00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:44,690
Speaker 1: Seventy eight members of Gandhi's Ashram walked two hundred miles

319
00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:47,450
Speaker 1: to one of the big salt making regions on the

320
00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:52,570
Speaker 1: coast in April. However, when the marchers reached the sea,

321
00:27:53,010 --> 00:27:59,490
Speaker 1: the British Viceroy Irwin had a remarkable response. He did nothing.

322
00:28:00,810 --> 00:28:06,290
Speaker 1: The marchers collected their salty mud. Press cameras caught the images.

323
00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:10,850
Speaker 1: There was Naidoo in her long sard hurry, Gandhy in

324
00:28:10,930 --> 00:28:16,330
Speaker 1: his usual loincloth with a shawl over his shoulders. The

325
00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:22,090
Speaker 1: point of non violent resistance was to have something to resist.

326
00:28:23,370 --> 00:28:27,010
Speaker 1: Without a response from the authorities, what were they supposed

327
00:28:27,010 --> 00:28:32,250
Speaker 1: to do. Gandy collected more mud, so did most of

328
00:28:32,290 --> 00:28:39,090
Speaker 1: the marchers. Still, Irwin did nothing. Over the next few days,

329
00:28:39,770 --> 00:28:43,690
Speaker 1: journalists began to mock the marchers. All they saw were

330
00:28:44,170 --> 00:28:49,330
Speaker 1: Indians milling about on a beach Soon the journalists left,

331
00:28:49,970 --> 00:28:55,890
Speaker 1: and then almost everyone else left too. Irwin had made

332
00:28:55,890 --> 00:29:00,290
Speaker 1: the marchers look like fools. A few weeks later, he

333
00:29:00,410 --> 00:29:06,130
Speaker 1: had Gandhy arrested quickly at night, bright flashlights in the face,

334
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:11,250
Speaker 1: armed troops to the rest of the nationalist leadership was

335
00:29:11,290 --> 00:29:19,370
Speaker 1: thrown into jail two. Nido clearly was next, and support

336
00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:23,850
Speaker 1: for their movement was waning. Indians had had enough of

337
00:29:23,890 --> 00:29:28,930
Speaker 1: British excuses, and now enough of the Indian National Congress

338
00:29:29,290 --> 00:29:33,850
Speaker 1: saying there was some magical sechagaha, a third way to

339
00:29:33,890 --> 00:29:37,490
Speaker 1: get the freedom they wanted. Some people were calling for

340
00:29:37,570 --> 00:29:42,610
Speaker 1: more violence. Nidu was convinced that would only lead to

341
00:29:42,690 --> 00:29:46,650
Speaker 1: more repression. She realized that she didn't have long to act.

342
00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:50,010
Speaker 1: She sent out messages to people she trusted, trying to

343
00:29:50,010 --> 00:29:54,850
Speaker 1: get journalists interested in a new protest, and then hurried

344
00:29:54,890 --> 00:30:00,090
Speaker 1: back to the coast to a hamlet called d Rasana. There,

345
00:30:00,890 --> 00:30:04,330
Speaker 1: Britain had built a large salt works where salt was

346
00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:08,730
Speaker 1: collected from large lagoons, then purified and stacked in high

347
00:30:08,730 --> 00:30:13,570
Speaker 1: pyramid The mudflats were surrounded by barbed wire and deep

348
00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:19,410
Speaker 1: moat like ditches. By the time Nido got there, danger

349
00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:24,810
Speaker 1: was in the air. Some nearby protesters were being led

350
00:30:24,850 --> 00:30:30,210
Speaker 1: by Gandhi's son Manulal, who was excitable and prone to violence.

351
00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:34,250
Speaker 1: The salt works were guarded by police with their vicious

352
00:30:34,290 --> 00:30:38,770
Speaker 1: clubs and troops with rifles. They were itching for an

353
00:30:38,810 --> 00:30:43,730
Speaker 1: excuse to use them. Naidoo spent long days going from

354
00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:48,610
Speaker 1: one small group of protesters to another, explaining their purpose.

355
00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:51,770
Speaker 1: They weren't just there to get salt. They were there

356
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:57,410
Speaker 1: to expose the unfairness of taxes paid by Indians to

357
00:30:57,490 --> 00:31:02,050
Speaker 1: keep Britons in luxury. If there was violence, that violence

358
00:31:02,130 --> 00:31:06,730
Speaker 1: is all the world would see. Each marcher's self control

359
00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:11,650
Speaker 1: was indispensable. If even a few acted out, it would

360
00:31:11,690 --> 00:31:15,650
Speaker 1: be like Amritza. It would become fair for the soldiers

361
00:31:15,650 --> 00:31:20,730
Speaker 1: to shoot back. Naid warned the marchers that the police

362
00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:26,050
Speaker 1: would be violent. You will be beaten, she said, but

363
00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:31,610
Speaker 1: you must not resist. You must not even raise a hand.

364
00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:38,330
Speaker 1: Briton's would be watching. The world would be watching. All

365
00:31:38,410 --> 00:31:43,250
Speaker 1: the forces of the universe were watching this isolated hamlet

366
00:31:43,530 --> 00:31:47,210
Speaker 1: and beach. It might seem to be just a speck

367
00:31:47,330 --> 00:31:52,130
Speaker 1: on the Gujarak coast, but if they could remain nonviolent,

368
00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:56,090
Speaker 1: they could make it the most important place on earth.

369
00:31:57,250 --> 00:32:00,090
Speaker 1: If anyone wished to step back now, they should feel

370
00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:04,890
Speaker 1: no shame. But for the others, they had to show

371
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:12,490
Speaker 1: the world what British rule really mean. On Wednesday, made

372
00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:18,250
Speaker 1: the twenty first, they went ahead. Naidu was at the front.

373
00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:24,290
Speaker 1: Gandhi's son Manuelal wasn't far behind. It was terrifying as

374
00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:29,450
Speaker 1: they got close, and Naidu started a group chant Bin

375
00:32:29,530 --> 00:32:39,010
Speaker 1: kilab Zindabad, Long Live the Revolution, the Peaceful Revolution. Before

376
00:32:39,130 --> 00:32:43,530
Speaker 1: Nidou's marchers could reach the barbed wire, scores of Indian

377
00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:48,890
Speaker 1: police rushed forward, wielding clubs. They rained down on some protesters'

378
00:32:48,890 --> 00:32:55,810
Speaker 1: heads with sickening crunches, cracking skulls. Men fell bleeding, but

379
00:32:55,890 --> 00:33:02,410
Speaker 1: the next row of marchers calmly continued, accepting the same beating.

380
00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:07,450
Speaker 1: When they refused to fight back, the police became enraged.

381
00:33:07,930 --> 00:33:12,610
Speaker 1: They kept beating people, stamping on them, leaving dozens and

382
00:33:12,650 --> 00:33:17,210
Speaker 1: then hundreds writhing on the ground. It only came to

383
00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:22,930
Speaker 1: an end at noon, when Naidu herself was arrested. Three

384
00:33:23,010 --> 00:33:28,010
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty marchers had been seriously wounded, many were

385
00:33:28,090 --> 00:33:38,250
Speaker 1: still unconscious. The British government announced a few days later

386
00:33:38,410 --> 00:33:42,850
Speaker 1: that nothing had happened that there had been some slight

387
00:33:43,330 --> 00:33:47,130
Speaker 1: confusion at Durrasana that day, but no shots were fired

388
00:33:47,690 --> 00:33:53,530
Speaker 1: and at most four people were wounded. Viceroy Irwin wrote

389
00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:59,330
Speaker 1: to the King, how amusing it was, and all was peaceful, easy,

390
00:34:00,930 --> 00:34:08,970
Speaker 1: just and there Perhaps the story might have ended, except

391
00:34:10,050 --> 00:34:15,970
Speaker 1: that Naidou's attempts to draw journalists to Durasna had succeeded.

392
00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:21,330
Speaker 1: One man, an American from the Midwest, had made it

393
00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:28,250
Speaker 1: along just one, but he worked for United Press, an

394
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:33,250
Speaker 1: American wire service that sent articles to over one thousand

395
00:34:33,370 --> 00:34:39,570
Speaker 1: newspapers worldwide. He had seen everything, and his reports were

396
00:34:39,610 --> 00:34:44,690
Speaker 1: read by tens of millions around the globe. The heart

397
00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:50,210
Speaker 1: went out of the British establishment. A few die hards

398
00:34:50,250 --> 00:34:55,010
Speaker 1: said how preposterous it was that Indians thought nonviolence could

399
00:34:55,050 --> 00:34:58,530
Speaker 1: make any real change. Didn't they realize it would never

400
00:34:58,610 --> 00:35:04,010
Speaker 1: work in Mussolini's Italy or Stalin's Soviet Union. But that

401
00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:08,650
Speaker 1: was the point. Most Britons were proud. Their nation was

402
00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:13,450
Speaker 1: nothing like those dictatorships. That was what NI do was

403
00:35:13,690 --> 00:35:19,290
Speaker 1: brilliantly banking on that if violence was the only way

404
00:35:19,330 --> 00:35:23,490
Speaker 1: to keep India submitting to British rule, then the British

405
00:35:23,490 --> 00:35:29,970
Speaker 1: didn't want it, and it worked. More and more Britons

406
00:35:30,090 --> 00:35:33,650
Speaker 1: questioned what their government was doing in India, and a

407
00:35:33,690 --> 00:35:37,650
Speaker 1: few years later, after the Second World War, Prime Minister

408
00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:43,850
Speaker 1: Clement Atli's post war government granted India its independence. That

409
00:35:44,090 --> 00:35:47,690
Speaker 1: alone would be a staggering achievement three hundred and fifty

410
00:35:47,770 --> 00:35:52,650
Speaker 1: million people finally free from colonial rule. But similar freedom

411
00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:57,850
Speaker 1: campaigns spread around the world, to Martin Luther King and

412
00:35:57,930 --> 00:36:01,330
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement in America, to Nelson Mandela and

413
00:36:01,370 --> 00:36:04,890
Speaker 1: the end of Apartheith in South Africa, to women's rights

414
00:36:05,610 --> 00:36:12,370
Speaker 1: and disability rights, and much else. Sir Rogenny Nidu and

415
00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:17,930
Speaker 1: Gandhi found their third way and then they shared it.

416
00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:36,970
Speaker 1: This powerful gentler path to transform nations that finishes our

417
00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:41,090
Speaker 1: series of four episodes inspired by a friend, David Bidanas's

418
00:36:41,170 --> 00:36:45,050
Speaker 1: book The Art of Fairness. The story of Sir Rogenny

419
00:36:45,130 --> 00:36:48,410
Speaker 1: Naidu is told in his forthcoming volume How to Change

420
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:51,210
Speaker 1: the World Now. All of the stories have been grappling

421
00:36:51,250 --> 00:36:53,450
Speaker 1: with the question we dealt with right at the start.

422
00:36:53,570 --> 00:36:57,530
Speaker 1: With the American baseball manager Leo du Rocha. He was

423
00:36:57,570 --> 00:37:03,010
Speaker 1: famous for saying, nice guys finish last well, David was

424
00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:06,490
Speaker 1: watching Derochia at his prime as a manager. David is

425
00:37:06,730 --> 00:37:10,570
Speaker 1: back in the studio with me now, David, nice guys

426
00:37:10,570 --> 00:37:13,690
Speaker 1: finished last. What do we think about whether that statement

427
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:14,210
Speaker 1: holds up.

428
00:37:14,530 --> 00:37:16,970
Speaker 2: There was a real lot of what Durocher was saying

429
00:37:17,090 --> 00:37:20,250
Speaker 2: that was true through most of that summer when I

430
00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:24,850
Speaker 2: was there watching them. He succeeded. Nice guys do finish

431
00:37:24,970 --> 00:37:27,730
Speaker 2: last almost all the time. If you're only nice, if

432
00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:30,810
Speaker 2: you're only polite, you're like a doormat. You get walked

433
00:37:30,850 --> 00:37:32,370
Speaker 2: all over all the time.

434
00:37:33,850 --> 00:37:36,170
Speaker 1: And so need to be a bit tougher. But that

435
00:37:36,250 --> 00:37:38,570
Speaker 1: doesn't mean going to the other extreme.

436
00:37:38,770 --> 00:37:41,330
Speaker 2: Well, see, that's the whole thing. Remember and I Do's brother,

437
00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:44,130
Speaker 2: as you were talking about, in the assassination in London

438
00:37:44,170 --> 00:37:47,810
Speaker 2: in nineteen oh nine, the one that he supported, he

439
00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:50,610
Speaker 2: went to an extreme. It's kind of a logical opposite. Oh,

440
00:37:50,650 --> 00:37:53,810
Speaker 2: being nice and polite hasn't gotten us anywhere for freedom

441
00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:54,290
Speaker 2: from England.

442
00:37:54,330 --> 00:37:55,650
Speaker 1: So we're going to shoot an old guy in the

443
00:37:55,650 --> 00:37:56,570
Speaker 1: face and that'll work.

444
00:37:56,810 --> 00:37:59,690
Speaker 2: Exactly. They're going way too far. The Indian National Congress

445
00:37:59,970 --> 00:38:02,810
Speaker 2: used to begin their meetings in the eighteen nineties and

446
00:38:02,930 --> 00:38:06,130
Speaker 2: nineteen hundred by singing God Save the Queen. They actually

447
00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:08,690
Speaker 2: did because they thought if they were really, really, really polite,

448
00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:10,890
Speaker 2: the nice people in Britain would forget the fact that

449
00:38:10,930 --> 00:38:13,170
Speaker 2: they look differently and would be nice to them. This

450
00:38:13,330 --> 00:38:15,930
Speaker 2: is a case where DeRosier is sort of right purely

451
00:38:15,970 --> 00:38:18,250
Speaker 2: being nice. The British established in want to keep on

452
00:38:18,290 --> 00:38:21,730
Speaker 2: going indefinitely. But the temptation to go to the opposite extreme,

453
00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:25,010
Speaker 2: that's what we have to fight. The Russian Revolution was

454
00:38:25,050 --> 00:38:27,610
Speaker 2: about as violent a revolution as you can get. The

455
00:38:27,690 --> 00:38:31,010
Speaker 2: result was Lenin and Stalin. People get into that mood.

456
00:38:31,090 --> 00:38:33,250
Speaker 2: It's easy to overshoot.

457
00:38:32,850 --> 00:38:35,090
Speaker 1: Right, so you need to find a middle way, and

458
00:38:35,170 --> 00:38:39,010
Speaker 1: that is really what these tales have been exploring. So

459
00:38:39,090 --> 00:38:41,690
Speaker 1: Durochia lost to a baseball banager who knew how to

460
00:38:41,770 --> 00:38:44,210
Speaker 1: keep control, but he wasn't a bully. And the Empire

461
00:38:44,210 --> 00:38:47,330
Speaker 1: State Building went up faster than any other skyscraper of

462
00:38:47,370 --> 00:38:51,970
Speaker 1: its time, with its builders keeping that ethos firm but fair,

463
00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:55,450
Speaker 1: they trust, but verify, they checked. And I like that.

464
00:38:55,530 --> 00:38:56,770
Speaker 2: But there's a problem.

465
00:38:57,490 --> 00:38:59,090
Speaker 1: There's always a problem. What is the problem.

466
00:38:59,130 --> 00:39:01,090
Speaker 2: The problem, Well, the thing is, the idea is a

467
00:39:01,130 --> 00:39:04,170
Speaker 2: great one. I've loved writing these books that show this

468
00:39:04,450 --> 00:39:07,970
Speaker 2: firm but fair in action. Your books show good ways

469
00:39:07,970 --> 00:39:11,530
Speaker 2: of acting also. But the thing is your books also

470
00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:15,690
Speaker 2: show the great ingenuity people need to make these principles work.

471
00:39:15,890 --> 00:39:17,970
Speaker 2: We have these ideas, we know what we're supposed to do,

472
00:39:18,370 --> 00:39:21,410
Speaker 2: turning it into action as hard you saw it in these.

473
00:39:21,250 --> 00:39:24,770
Speaker 1: Four episodes absolutely. I mean the struggle, for example, that

474
00:39:24,850 --> 00:39:28,570
Speaker 1: Naidu and Gandhi had when they organized this protest of

475
00:39:28,810 --> 00:39:32,610
Speaker 1: the Prince of Wales the future king coming to India,

476
00:39:32,890 --> 00:39:34,930
Speaker 1: and it just got out of control. So it's easy

477
00:39:34,970 --> 00:39:37,010
Speaker 1: to say, oh, you know, we're going to protest in

478
00:39:37,050 --> 00:39:40,530
Speaker 1: a non violent way, but actually those protests became incredibly violent.

479
00:39:40,970 --> 00:39:44,530
Speaker 1: Or One of the stories that really explored this so

480
00:39:44,650 --> 00:39:49,010
Speaker 1: elegantly was William Bligh, the captain who suffered the mutiny

481
00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:51,130
Speaker 1: on the Bounty, and I found it so interesting that

482
00:39:51,250 --> 00:39:54,650
Speaker 1: the challenge that he faced was that his approach worked

483
00:39:55,050 --> 00:39:58,810
Speaker 1: in some contexts, but the context kept changing and he

484
00:39:58,850 --> 00:40:00,090
Speaker 1: couldn't adapt to the context.

485
00:40:00,290 --> 00:40:03,010
Speaker 2: He couldn't adapt. That's what happens. You vowed, okay, I'm

486
00:40:03,010 --> 00:40:05,210
Speaker 2: going to be calm. I'm okay, I'm going to be calm,

487
00:40:05,410 --> 00:40:07,250
Speaker 2: and then your kids are crying at nine pm and

488
00:40:07,290 --> 00:40:09,250
Speaker 2: you really want them to go to bed and come

489
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:12,210
Speaker 2: less calm. We know what we should do, but actually

490
00:40:12,250 --> 00:40:14,570
Speaker 2: carrying it out as hard. So in a sense, when

491
00:40:14,570 --> 00:40:17,730
Speaker 2: we do books of instructions, we need meta instructions. Also,

492
00:40:17,850 --> 00:40:21,170
Speaker 2: here's the instructions, here's the principles. Now here's how to

493
00:40:21,250 --> 00:40:23,130
Speaker 2: apply it when times are rough.

494
00:40:23,610 --> 00:40:25,410
Speaker 1: And that links into a couple of things. We hear

495
00:40:25,450 --> 00:40:28,610
Speaker 1: a lot in cautionary tales. So one of the things

496
00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:31,170
Speaker 1: that people really need is this alertness to what is

497
00:40:31,210 --> 00:40:34,930
Speaker 1: going on around them and this responsiveness to feedback. So

498
00:40:35,090 --> 00:40:38,730
Speaker 1: rather than just setting their course and following the course

499
00:40:38,770 --> 00:40:40,850
Speaker 1: that they planned all along, it's never going to be

500
00:40:40,930 --> 00:40:43,330
Speaker 1: right first time. They've got to have that opportunity to

501
00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:46,530
Speaker 1: spot that something's going wrong. And a lot of the

502
00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:49,970
Speaker 1: disasters that happen in cautionary tales are ultimately because of

503
00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:53,010
Speaker 1: broken feedback loops. Something's going wrong and the people with

504
00:40:53,050 --> 00:40:56,290
Speaker 1: the ability to make change don't get told or they're

505
00:40:56,290 --> 00:41:00,090
Speaker 1: not listening. And then the other thing is just preparing

506
00:41:00,130 --> 00:41:03,490
Speaker 1: yourself for something going wrong mentally rehearsing that. I mean,

507
00:41:03,490 --> 00:41:07,890
Speaker 1: that's something that Paul Starrett, for example, who was the

508
00:41:07,890 --> 00:41:11,130
Speaker 1: project manager on the Empire State Building, he did a

509
00:41:11,130 --> 00:41:13,410
Speaker 1: great job of thinking through all the things that could

510
00:41:13,450 --> 00:41:16,810
Speaker 1: go wrong and working out how I was going to

511
00:41:16,810 --> 00:41:20,250
Speaker 1: deal with them. Whereas William Bly he never quite seemed

512
00:41:20,250 --> 00:41:22,130
Speaker 1: to be able to think that through well, to think ahead,

513
00:41:22,250 --> 00:41:24,290
Speaker 1: even when stuff had gone wrong and then it had

514
00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:27,330
Speaker 1: started going right again, he wasn't able to go, Okay,

515
00:41:27,650 --> 00:41:29,370
Speaker 1: you know I had a near miss. How am I

516
00:41:29,410 --> 00:41:31,810
Speaker 1: going to make sure the things don't fall apart next time?

517
00:41:31,930 --> 00:41:36,050
Speaker 2: I think that's probably our best practical solution. Practice it

518
00:41:36,290 --> 00:41:39,770
Speaker 2: and imagine it going wrong. My mother used to say, David,

519
00:41:39,810 --> 00:41:41,450
Speaker 2: if you want to get to know somebody, well, go

520
00:41:41,530 --> 00:41:44,090
Speaker 2: on a trip, but have something go wrong. Then you'll

521
00:41:44,130 --> 00:41:47,690
Speaker 2: see how people respond. It's sort of like theatrically acting

522
00:41:47,730 --> 00:41:50,730
Speaker 2: out the different ways things can go wrong. If the

523
00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:53,970
Speaker 2: military says do this and everything will act perfectly, you

524
00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:57,090
Speaker 2: forget the enemy has a vote, the environment has a vote,

525
00:41:57,370 --> 00:41:59,730
Speaker 2: chance has a vote. But if we practice it a

526
00:41:59,730 --> 00:42:01,810
Speaker 2: little bit, say okay, what'll I do when I'm a

527
00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:03,490
Speaker 2: bit stressed here? What will I do when I'm a

528
00:42:03,490 --> 00:42:06,530
Speaker 2: bit tired, Then when it actually comes into action, you

529
00:42:06,610 --> 00:42:07,890
Speaker 2: at least have a better chance.

530
00:42:08,530 --> 00:42:11,370
Speaker 1: David, the amazing stories of amazing insights, Thank you so

531
00:42:11,490 --> 00:42:14,850
Speaker 1: much for bringing them to us. With pleasure David Bandanas's

532
00:42:14,970 --> 00:42:17,970
Speaker 1: forthcoming book, including the life story of Sir Rogeny and

533
00:42:18,010 --> 00:42:21,970
Speaker 1: iid is How to Change the World Lessons from Three

534
00:42:22,050 --> 00:42:24,370
Speaker 1: People Who Did It is scheduled to come out in

535
00:42:24,410 --> 00:42:26,770
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, and of course you can reserve a

536
00:42:26,810 --> 00:42:30,850
Speaker 1: copy in advance. Just check out our website if you

537
00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:35,530
Speaker 1: can't wait. David's many other books, including the Art of Fairness,

538
00:42:35,890 --> 00:42:43,330
Speaker 1: while they're available wherever books are solved. Cautionary Tales is

539
00:42:43,370 --> 00:42:47,490
Speaker 1: written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. This mini

540
00:42:47,530 --> 00:42:51,730
Speaker 1: series is based on David Bandanas's book The Art of Fairness,

541
00:42:51,890 --> 00:42:55,010
Speaker 1: The Power of Decency in a World Turned Mean, and

542
00:42:55,130 --> 00:42:58,690
Speaker 1: it was written with David Bandanas himself. For a full

543
00:42:58,690 --> 00:43:01,890
Speaker 1: list of our sources, see the show notes at Timharford

544
00:43:01,930 --> 00:43:06,130
Speaker 1: dot com. The show is produced by Alice Fines, with

545
00:43:06,290 --> 00:43:09,770
Speaker 1: Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music the work

546
00:43:09,810 --> 00:43:15,250
Speaker 1: of Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the script. Cautionary Tales

547
00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:19,570
Speaker 1: features the voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Gustridge, Stella Harford,

548
00:43:19,730 --> 00:43:24,090
Speaker 1: Gemma Saunders, and Rufus Wright. The show wouldn't have been

549
00:43:24,130 --> 00:43:28,330
Speaker 1: possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Gretta Cohen,

550
00:43:28,970 --> 00:43:34,370
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey and Owen Miller.

551
00:43:35,170 --> 00:43:39,490
Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded

552
00:43:39,490 --> 00:43:43,490
Speaker 1: at ward Or Studios in London by Tom Berry. If

553
00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:47,330
Speaker 1: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review.

554
00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:50,490
Speaker 1: It doesn't really make a difference to us and if

555
00:43:50,530 --> 00:43:53,250
Speaker 1: you want to hear the show ad free, sign up

556
00:43:53,290 --> 00:43:56,890
Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus on the show page on Apple Podcasts

557
00:43:57,010 --> 00:44:00,650
Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot Fm, slash plus