1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: The Vault hangs open. Time to venture into the Black Void. 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: That's right, venturing down into the void for this one. 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: This is an episode. Now this technically this episode in 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: the next Vault episode came out in March and March 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: twenty nine, two eighteen. Some of you might be saying, 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: whoa hold on, that's not even a year ago, even 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: though it is from last year. Well, the reason we 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: were rerunning these is because these are deep sea episodes. 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: These are underwater episodes. And uh, I have a a 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: fiction podcast project that's launching on the thirty feet here. 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: Everyone here is so excited. Yeah, yeah, we're all super excited. 14 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: It's titled Transgenesis. And so it seemed appropriate to feature 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: some stuff to Blow your mind Vault episodes that dealt 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: with the deep ocean. And this episode, of course, concerns 17 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: the real history of deep sea exploration, which is a 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: more difficult proposition than you might imagine. In this age 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: of deep sea submersibles and James Cameron and all that, 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: the early deep sea explorers were We're going into some 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: some hairy stuff. Yeah, this is this is a weird odyssey, 22 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: uh that we explore with the bathosphere. Uh. So join 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: us for this vault Vault episode and the next vault episode. 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: And if you wanted to get a taste of Transgenesis 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: before it comes out, head on over to Transgenesis Dot Show. 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this vault episode of stuff to 27 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: blow your mind. On the Earth at night in moonlight, 28 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: I can always imagine the yellow of sunshine, the scarlet 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: of invisible blossoms. But here, when the searchlight was off, 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: yellow and orange and red were unthinkable. The blue, which 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: filled all space admitted no thought of other colors. The 32 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: return trip was made in forty three minutes, an average 33 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: of one foot every two seconds. Twice during the ascent 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: I was ware of one or more indefinite large bodies 35 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: moving about at a distance. On the way down. I 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: had accredited them to an over excited imagination, but after 37 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: having the experience repeated on several deep dives, I am 38 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: sure that I did see shadowy shapes of large and 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: very real living creatures. What they were I can only 40 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: guess and live in hopes of seeing them closer on 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: some future descent. What this great creature was I cannot say. 42 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: A first and most reasonable guests would be a small 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: whale or blackfish. We know that whales have a special 44 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: chemical adjustment of the blood which makes it possible for 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: them to dive a mile or more and come up 46 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: without getting the bends. So this paltry depth of two thousand, 47 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty feet would be nothing for any 48 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: similarly equipped cetacean. Or less likely, it may have been 49 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: a whale shark, which is known to reach a length 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: of forty feet. Whatever it was, it appeared and vanished 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: so unexpectedly and showed so dimly that it was quite unidentifiable, 52 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: except as a large living creature. Welcome to stuff to 53 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: blow your mind from. How stuff weren't dot Com? Hey, 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb, and I'm jere McCormick. And Robert, what were 56 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: those readings from? Uh? Those were the words of William 57 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: Beebe in his biography half Mile Down, Half Mile Down. 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: William Beebe was an American naturalist who lived from eighteen 59 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: seventy seven to nineteen sixty two, and he was a 60 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: fabulous writer, he was. Yes, we were talking about this 61 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: a little bit before we went on area we have 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: we have I guess two major areas to look to 63 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: his biography Half Mile Down, which was certainly aimed at 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: more of a general public audience, but even in his 65 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: writings to a scientific audience, I admire the sort of 66 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: directness and clarity of his writing. I was looking at 67 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: a report of his from his underwater expeditions that he 68 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: delivered in proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, and it's wonderfully written for a scientific paper. Yeah, 70 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: I was. I was reading so many of these accounts 71 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: whilst listening to some ambient electronic music, and it really 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: I was getting chill bumps at times when he's talking 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: about descending into the dark and seeing these various bioluminescent 74 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: creatures uh come into his line of vision, creatures that 75 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: had had never been seen before, and in some cases 76 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: as well discussed creatures that have not been seen or 77 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: captured since. Now that is spooky. So, Robert, tell me, 78 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: what does the main thing about William BB's career we're 79 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: gonna be focusing on today. Well, we're gonna be talking 80 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: about the Bathisphere, the bathisphere, which is Greek for deep sphere, 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: which was the which this was these basically the submersible 82 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: deep ball, the deep ball that that he used on 83 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: the just groundbreaking trips into the deep. Because prior to this, uh, 84 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: this was in the nineteen thirties. Prior to this, subs 85 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: could only get down about three hundred and eighty three 86 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: feet or a hundred and sixteen meters or so, and 87 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: uh and armored dive suits were only good for about 88 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: five twenty five ft or a hundred and sixty But 89 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: the Bathosphere reached an astonishing three thousand and twenty eight 90 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: feet or nine two points. That record was set in 91 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty four, and it remained the record till nineteen 92 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: forty nine. And that record was set by William Beebe 93 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: and his collaborator Otis Barton, who together did many dives 94 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: in the steel ball, going deep into the depths off 95 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: Bermuda and in starting in nineteen thirty. So we'll tell 96 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: the story of the Bathosphere more as we go on, 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: but I guess first we should talk about why why 98 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: are we doing the Bathosphere today? How did this come up? Well, 99 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: I mean on one hand, it's it's a perfect topic 100 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: because it deals with the ocean and the deep mysteries 101 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: of the ocean, which we come back around to again 102 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: and again on stuff to blow your mind. I've been 103 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: working on a lot lately, A lot, Yeah, a lot. 104 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: And part of that is due to I do have 105 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: a side project I've been working on here at work 106 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: that does concern uh, deep sea themes. Also, I've recently 107 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: finished reading Peter watts novel Starfish, which is a wonderful 108 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: sort of cyberpunk sci fi novel from several years back 109 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: that takes takes place in the deep ocean. Peter Watts 110 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: the author of blind Side, Yes, but he wrote Starfish 111 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: many years before. Correct. Yeah, this was his first big splash. 112 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: You could say, uh and then uh and then also Joe, 113 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: you and I recently attended the exhibit Unseen Oceans at 114 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, 115 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: which is running March twelfth, two thousand eighteen, through January six, 116 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and nineteen. This was a really cool special exhibit. 117 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: I really liked it, and it got into a thing 118 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: that's really hard to explain in a in an interesting way, 119 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: but it did it. It got into the character of plankton, 120 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: like making you feel that like plankton has personality. There 121 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: are different types of plankton, and those types matter and 122 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: their interesting, Like there are even these tiny zeno moreph 123 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: some plankton. Yes, it's easy to I feel like we 124 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: we often have this sort of science biology textbook approach 125 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: to plankton where they are a little more than a 126 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: little side note at the beginning, and it's just like, 127 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: these are these are small creatures. Don't worry about them. 128 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: Larger or more interesting creatures eat them. But of course 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: they're they're extremely vital and uh. And when you start 130 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:30,239 Speaker 1: keying in on individual plankton specimens, there is this rich diversity. Uh, 131 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: it's on par with anything you would find in other 132 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: regions of the animal kingdom. I mean, in a very 133 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: real way. They're sort of the ground floor of the 134 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: entire biosphere. And so you do find not only just 135 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: sort of interesting but also forgettable preycare creatures. You find 136 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: fascinating predators and parasites. But another great thing about this 137 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: exhibit is that it tells the story of people who 138 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: have tried to illuminate the depths of the ocean. I mean, 139 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: we we see Nature documentary is showing us footage of 140 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: what happens under the sea. And because you've seen that footage, 141 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: now you might have this sense like, Okay, we finally 142 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: figured out what the oceans are, like, we know what's 143 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: down there. It's you know, it's it's finally conquered territory. 144 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: And in many ways it is, it has been and 145 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: still remains the most mysterious thing about planet Earth. It 146 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: is not conquered territory. There's so much we haven't seen 147 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: and we don't know about the deep oceans. Yeah, and 148 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: and you know that one of the interesting things, one 149 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: of the one of the reasons we're talking about William 150 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: Beebe here today is that when you think about pioneers 151 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: in deep sea exploration, unless this is a topic that 152 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: you've read extensively about before or whatnot, and some of 153 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: the key names that come to mind are probably Jacques Cousteau, right, 154 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: And indeed, Jacques Cousteau did a lot uh in the 155 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: area of exploring our season, popularizing our understanding of the seas. 156 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: He's one of those figures that I think many people 157 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: of our generation actually know more directly from parody of him. 158 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: Than they know from him himself. Well maybe for for 159 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: today's like younger generations, but but he had a long 160 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: running television series narrated by Rod Serling. Oh yeah, well, 161 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: I just mean that, I know, I grew up not 162 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: really knowing anything about Jacques Cousto himself. But I saw 163 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: a countless cartoon and puppet French accent, you know, underwater 164 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: explorer type characters that were I don't mean like they 165 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: were attacking Jacques Custo, were making fun of him, But 166 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, he seemed like a very parodyable character 167 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: in American culture, right. And of course today we have 168 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: James Cameron, who who's whose contribution to deeps exploration is 169 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: a is is real? Yeah. Um but but but as 170 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: as far as William Beebe goes in the bathosphere, like, 171 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: this is a story that I feel isn't as celebrated 172 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: in pop culture. It's it's it's certainly remembered in in 173 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: his story of marine biology and our exploration of the seas. 174 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not it's not something that's forgotten. Before 175 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: we did this exhibit, I knew pretty much nothing about this. Yeah. Yeah, 176 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: but I think where I started really discovering it was 177 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: was in reading Starfish, in which Peter Watts makes several 178 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: mentions of PB and his contributions and his sightings, not 179 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: just a quick note. This is going to be a 180 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: two parter. We started recording it and we were just 181 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: going way too long. So we went ahead and made 182 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: the decision let's cut it into UH and UH and 183 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: spread it out over the course of a week instead 184 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: of dropping like a nearly two hour episode right in 185 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: your lap. Well, I mean there's a lot of deep 186 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: sea out there, right, that's right. I can't blame us 187 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: for talking forever on that. Yeah, and we're only scratching 188 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: the surface on it. Well, maybe the best understand Bob's contributions. 189 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: It helps to turn our eyes to the past and 190 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: to look at what humanities knowledge of the deepest parts 191 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: of the ocean, or even not the deepest, even the 192 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: deeper parts of the ocean was like before the Bathosphere expedition, 193 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: and so what we knew and what the process of 194 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: exploring the deep sea was like. So Robert, will you 195 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: come along with me to the age of sea monsters? Yes, yes, 196 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: here they'd be dragons. So, given how little we know 197 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: about the deep ocean, just think about how mysterious the 198 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: depths were before just about a hundred years ago, or 199 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: in even earlier times when less was known about biology 200 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: in general, that you could extrapolate to the deep ocean, 201 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: when stories of sea monsters the size of whole islands 202 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: rising out of the out of the deep was really 203 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: not out of the realm of possibility. That's something I'd 204 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: like to emphasize. It was not just fanciful to imagine. 205 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: Back then, you had no reason necessarily to doubt stories 206 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: of sea monsters, right, yeah, I mean because ultimately, what 207 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: did we know of the of the depths or even 208 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: the greater expanses of the sea. We did not know 209 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: about whole continents out there, so uh, it would seem 210 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: entirely poss well, you would have giant sea creatures, and 211 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: in fact, we saw giants sea creatures in the forms 212 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: of of spouting whales and various carcassus occasionally drift up 213 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: to shore exactly right. So, most of the time in 214 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: human history was a time when people could not look 215 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: beneath the ocean. They didn't they didn't really have any 216 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: idea other than what sailors might have said they saw 217 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: coming up to the surface. Every now and then. But 218 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: that was just a peak, that was just what came 219 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: up to the surface. I mean, what's deep down there? 220 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: Who the heck knows. So one example of the kinds 221 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: of beliefs that used to be so plausible about the 222 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: creatures that lived in the deep. I want to reference 223 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: a passage that's quoted in Chet van Deuser's book Sea 224 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: Monsters on Medieval and Renaissance Maps, which Robert, this is 225 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: a book you loaned me and it's fantastic. Oh yeah, 226 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: this is what. This is a wonderful book, wonderful content, 227 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: and there's so many rich illustrations from these old maps. Yeah, 228 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: they're they're wonderful. Now. Originally this quote is from the 229 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: Knuskusa or the King's Mirror, which is a thirteen injury 230 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: old Norse educational text. So it's got it's written in 231 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: the form of a dialogue, and it's got characters talking 232 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: to each other about things in the world, and we 233 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: come to this passage talking about marine life. So here 234 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: it is quote there is a fish not yet mentioned, 235 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: which it is scarcely advisable to speak about on account 236 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: of its size, which to most men will seem incredible. 237 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: There are moreover, but very few who can tell anything 238 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: definite about it, inasmuch as it is rarely seen by men, 239 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: for it almost never approaches the shore or appears where 240 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: fishermen can see it. And I doubt that this sort 241 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: of fish is very plentiful in the sea. In our 242 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: language it is usually called the kraken. I can say 243 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: nothing definite as to its length in els, for on 244 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: those occasions when men have seen it, it has appeared 245 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: more like an island than a fish. Nor have I 246 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: heard that one has ever been caught or found dead. 247 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: It seems likely that there are but two in all 248 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: the ocean, and that these beget no offspring, for I 249 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: believe it is always the same ones that appear. Nor 250 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: would it be well for other fishes if they were 251 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: as numerous as other whales, seeing that they are so 252 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: immense and needs so much food. It is said that 253 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: when these fishes want something to eat, they are in 254 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: the habit of giving forth a violent belch, which brings 255 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: up so much food, that all sorts of fish in 256 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: the neighborhood, both large and small, will rush up in 257 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: hopes of getting nourishment and good fair. Meanwhile, the monster 258 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: keeps its mouth open, and inasmuch as its opening is 259 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: about as wide as a sound or fiord, the fishes 260 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: cannot help crowding in great numbers. But as soon as 261 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: its mouth and belly are full, the monster closes its 262 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: mouth and thus catches and shuts in all the fishes 263 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: that just previously had rushed in eagerly to seek food. 264 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that is a fabulous description. Yeah, and that's 265 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: an amazing hunting strategy. Yeah, I offhand, I can't think 266 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: of a real world organism that actually employs something like that. Well, 267 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: there's sort of, um, there are versions in much smaller scales. Now, 268 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: obviously you've got like the snapping turtle with the fake 269 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: worm lure in its mouth and it will wait for 270 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: the fish to sneak in to get the food and 271 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: then clamp shut. But those artificial lures, right, But what 272 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: we have here is like this creature has eaten so 273 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: much sea life and then it vomits that sea life up, 274 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: which brings in greater populations of sea life, which it 275 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: then it just then just sucks all of that down. Yeah. 276 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: But I want to emphasize again, this sounds ridiculous to us, 277 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: but we're living after Darwin. We know a lot more. 278 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: We're living after Darwin, and we're living after you know, 279 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: submarines going down and looking at well, what kind of 280 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: sea life is there? Really, we still don't know a 281 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: whole lot, but we know enough that this doesn't seem plausible. 282 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: But if you were armed with only what an educated 283 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: Norwegian courtier knew about deep sea life in the thirteenth century, 284 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: how would you argue against these accounts? Indeed? And uh, 285 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: you know this is there's another point that chet VanDuzer 286 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: makes in his book is that like in the ancient world, 287 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: it was it was often assumed that anything that existed 288 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: on the surface likely had a counterpart beneath the waves 289 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: and the mirror world. And I mean the names stick 290 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: with us, the sea lion, the sea cow, sea cucumber, 291 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: I guess the sea cucumber two but to see Hamburger. 292 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: But basically, when you start looking at all these fabulous beasts, 293 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: and I think we alluded to this a little bit 294 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: in our Aquatic Humanoids episode episodes, Uh, you find all 295 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: these various just ridiculous sea dogs, et cetera. Literally the 296 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: idea that whatever we have here there must be a 297 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: counterpart beneath the waves, and I mean to a certain extent, 298 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: there's there's a bit of truth in that, just the 299 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: idea that that whatever diversity we have on the surface, 300 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: that diversity must be represented beneath the waves. But of course, 301 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: in reality it's even it's even greater than that. The 302 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: vast majority of the planet's biodiversity is in the ocean. Well, yeah, 303 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: there's just so much ocean and there are so many 304 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: ecological niches to fill within it. All right, we're gonna 305 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we'll jump right back in. 306 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: Thank Thank alright, we're back now. Of course, as we've 307 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: said that, over time, there has been this steady increasing 308 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: catalog of some knowledge about undersea life. There's still a 309 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: lot we don't know, but we know a lot more 310 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: than we used to. And one of the earliest major 311 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: explorations of marine biology was that of Aristotle in the 312 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: fourth century BC. In his Biology or This History of 313 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: of Animal Life, Aristotle got a lot wrong, like, for example, 314 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: he said the octopus is a stupid creature, for it 315 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: will approach a man's hand if it be lowered in 316 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: the water. Now, on the other hand, Aristotle, for his time, 317 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: if you consider his limitations, got an astonishing amount. Right. 318 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: For example, he correctly determined that whales and dolphins were 319 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: not fish, and he made lots of other extremely astute classifications. So, 320 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: uh filed this away under Aristotle occasionally says things that 321 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: sound dumb to us, but was not dumb. Yeah. Yeah, 322 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: I feel like we've hashedne this before on other topics. Uh. 323 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: From our advantage point, it's easy to to say, ah, 324 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: you really screwed that up Aristotle. But really, given what 325 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: he had to work with, his his understanding of the 326 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: natural world was amazing. Yeah, I just mean think about 327 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: Aristotle's the research methods available to him now. A lot 328 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: of what he did he probably he probably got a 329 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: lot of information by like talking to fisher folk and 330 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: stuff like that. But he also I think some people 331 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: have said, you know, it really looks from some of 332 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: his statements like Aristotle performed dissections, so he must have 333 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: had some access to specimens. And it's not so easy 334 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: to always get specimens in the ancient world, Like how 335 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: how do you collect them? You just like throw some 336 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: nets and hope you get some good stuff. Yeah, especially 337 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: this is especially important considering that you have other historians 338 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: and writers of the ancient world who were very much 339 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: going on second, third, and fourth hand accounts of what 340 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: was going on elsewhere in the world. And and and 341 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: that's where we see some of these more ridiculous notions 342 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: of of even terrestrial monsters and creatures. Totally, it's like 343 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: it's through a glass darkly on in like four ways, right, 344 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: So you're getting it second hand. You know that you 345 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: heard a story from somebody who heard a story who 346 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: also was not really beneath the waves when he or 347 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: she saw this thing, but just saw something poke up 348 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: from the surface. I mean, there's so many levels of 349 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: removed from the actual biological reality that it's not hard 350 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: to understand where these myths about sea monsters come from. 351 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: So to explore the idea of ways of understanding the 352 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: deep sea, like the research methods available to us before 353 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: recent times, and like the invention of modern technology like 354 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: sonar and other stuff. Uh, there were I want to 355 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: say they were basically two broad methods for studying the 356 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: deepest parts of the ocean, and for a little mythological flare. 357 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: I want I want to give them some mythological names 358 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: to help us keep them organized. So one I want 359 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: to call the Ebisu method, So Ebisu is the Japanese 360 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: luck odd, often depicted as a jolly fisherman with a 361 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: bright red bream on his line. He's always got a 362 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,239 Speaker 1: fishing pole. So the Ebissue method is to use some 363 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: kind of method to pull creatures up from the deep 364 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: to the surface so you can study them go fishing basically, okay. 365 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: And the other one I want to call the Gilgamesh method, 366 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: because Gilgamesh, of course, is the protagonist of the four 367 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: thousand year old Mesopotamian work known as the Epic of Gilgamesh. 368 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: And if you'll recall from the Epic of Gilgamesh and 369 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: the second half of the story Gilgamesh, he gets obsessed 370 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: with finding the secret of eternal life. And in Tablet eleven, 371 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 1: he receives a tip that there is a plant at 372 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: the bottom of the ocean covered in prickling thorns, which 373 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: if you pull it up from the ocean old grant 374 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: you eternal life. And so, to read from the Andrew 375 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: George translation quote, heavy stones he tied to his feet, 376 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: and they pulled him down to the ocean below. He 377 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: took the plant and pulled it up and lifted it. 378 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 1: The heavy stones he cut loose from his feet and 379 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 1: the sea cast him up on its shore. So the 380 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: idea is Gilgamesh, he weighs himself down, he goes to 381 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: the very bottom of the ocean, he cuts up this plant, 382 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: and then he cuts himself loose. So the Gilgamesh method, 383 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to say, is to dive as deep as 384 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: you can into the dark world and see what you 385 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: can see. But of course you also have to be 386 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: able to come back and report what you've seen. Right, 387 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: Not not all of us are Gilgamesh. Right, it seemed 388 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: like he could hold his breath for a long time 389 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: and withstand some crushing compression. They probably didn't necessarily understand 390 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: at the time, But so people have been accidentally practicing 391 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: versions of the Ebisome method for thousands of years. Right. 392 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: So of course the easiest thing is that sometimes dead 393 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: organisms from the deep sea will wash up on the 394 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: shore in various states of decomposition, and people could look 395 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: at that and say, oh, I wonder what this is. 396 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: But we still see this all the time. I feel 397 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: like only a few months will go go go by 398 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: before there's another, uh weird dead thing that's washed upon 399 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: the beach, and various websites will will start speculating as 400 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: to what it was, and generally they'll say, Oh, it's 401 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: probably unsty, it's probably a dinosaur. I mean, I'm torn 402 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: because I I love a good beach monster and I 403 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: hate the Daily Mail, and the latter is the best 404 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: place to go for the former you you will always get. 405 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: The beach monster is interpreted in various ways. But I mean, 406 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: beach monster is a wild grotesque and often classified as 407 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: monsters that don't really exist. Can show us some things 408 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: about the deep ocean. Uh. The other thing would be 409 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: accidental ebisume method practicing just through fishing. People are throwing 410 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: nets in order to catch some fish to eat, but 411 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: they pull up something interesting by accident. Now, whether you're 412 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: practicing the this method on purpose or by accident, there 413 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: are definitely limits to what you can learn through it, 414 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: and will explore some of those limits in a bit. 415 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: One surprising thing to learn is that, according to some reports, 416 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: ancient people's actually did practice versions of the Gilgamesh method 417 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: as well. So, going back to Aristotle in his three 418 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: sixty BC work Problem Atam or the Problems, Aristotle actually 419 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: gives the earliest description I'm aware of of deep diving technology. 420 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: And so this is going to be a version of 421 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: the diving bell. And he's talking about divers who fish 422 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: for sponges on the sea floor, and he discusses all 423 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: kinds of weird practices these divers used to make the 424 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: deep more tolerable, and these include fastening sponges around their ears, 425 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: or cutting slits in their own ears and nostrils. And 426 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: in this section, Aristotle writes that quote. In order that 427 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: these fissures of sponges may be supplied with a facility 428 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: of respiration, a kettle is let down to them, not 429 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: filled with water, but with air, which constantly assists the 430 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: submerged demand. It is forcibly kept upright in its descent 431 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: in order that it may be sent down at an 432 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: equal level all around, to prevent the air from escaping 433 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: and the water from entering. Now, if you never like 434 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: played this game in the bath as a kid, you 435 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: can make a simple diving bell just by taking a 436 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: cup or a bowl or something and turning it upside 437 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: down and then pressing it straight down into the water 438 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: and not letting it wobble. And what it'll do is 439 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: it will keep a bubble of air trapped underneath the cup. 440 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: And you could if you were a tiny diver, swim 441 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: up in there or stay in there and breathe down 442 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: at the bottom. But this comes with a lot of risks, 443 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: right like if it gets tipped over slightly, the air 444 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: can escape and uh, and of course you're still going 445 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: to be dealing with all kinds of weird pressure problems. Yeah, 446 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: this is this is one of those things that we 447 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: we all experiment with in the bathtub. I feel I've 448 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: observed I've observed my my son doing this as well, 449 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: but he has not reached the conclusion, hey, why don't 450 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: we take one of these to the ocean. But I 451 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: can I can imagine that this idea has been around 452 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: as long as we've had bowls, essentially as long as 453 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: we've had even just coconut husks or something to that effect. Yeah, 454 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,479 Speaker 1: it's hard to know for sure because Aristotle doesn't make 455 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: it clear who invented this technique, and he doesn't make 456 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: it clear how long it's been around or how common 457 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: it was. He just mentions that some divers can do this, 458 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: So we don't know where it comes from or how 459 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: far it was taken in the ancient world. But here 460 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: is a really weird connection. I came across. According to 461 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: medieval legend, Aristotle's student Alexander the Great was his own 462 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: kind of great undersea adventurer and pioneer of the school 463 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: of Gilgamesh. Robert, had you ever come across the Alexander 464 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: the Great as deep sea explorer before? I don't believe 465 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: I had, though the William Beebe makes reference to it 466 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: in his book Half Mile Down. Yeah. Uh. So. There 467 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: are a lot of versions of this legend, and and 468 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: to be very clear, these are pretty much definitely false. 469 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: Maybe some versions of them are inspired by something that 470 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: roughly happened, but but as told, they're definitely false. So 471 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: the oldest version I think is the one about how 472 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: while Alexander the Great was laying siege to the city 473 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: of Tear in Lebanon, he had divers swimming underwater to 474 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: either remove or to put in place boom defenses. And 475 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: a boom defenses something you would put in in a 476 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: harbor or a channel, that's like a huge chain or 477 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: object that you would place underwater to prevent the passage 478 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: of ships. It recalls something Terry and Lanister does in 479 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: the Battle of Blackwater Bay. Remember that I don't remember that. 480 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: I remember all the fire obviously, but I don't remember 481 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: the use of chains too. Yeah, in the book, he 482 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: puts a big chain across the water and this prevents 483 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: the ships from getting past, And this is an actual technique. 484 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: So in some versions of the story, I think Alexander 485 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: is trying to get rid of boom defenses, and some 486 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: of he's trying to put them in place. But in 487 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 1: any case, he's got divers working for him. And in 488 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: one version of the story, written by a seventh century 489 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: Arab historian and quoted in the History of Underwater Exploration 490 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: by Richard F. Marks, Alexander wants to go underwater, either 491 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: to help with this task or to see how it's 492 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: coming along. So he has his workmen build him a 493 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: huge wooden box with glass windows that are sealed with 494 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: resin and wax to keep the water out. And then 495 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: the room at this box is weighed down with iron 496 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: and lead and stone and then lowered into the water 497 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: between two ships, with Alexander and a couple of his 498 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: secretaries inside the box. And then from inside this sealed 499 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: room they can look out the glass windows and see 500 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: what's happening deep underwater in the ocean quote. Thanks to 501 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: the transparency of the glass and the limpidity of the water. 502 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: Alexander and his two companions were able to see the 503 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: marine monsters and a species of demon having the head 504 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: of a ferocious beast attached to a human body. Some 505 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: of them carried axes, others saws, and still others hammers, 506 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: so they looked like workman. Alexander and his two secretaries 507 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: drew careful pictures of these monsters. Then they pulled the line, 508 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: and at this signal, the men on the ships drew 509 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: up the case. The king stepped out and was carried 510 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: back to Alexandria. Well, you know, hearing that, I I 511 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: feel that Alexander deserved to be frightened a little bit, 512 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: since he was really kind of micromanaging on all this. 513 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: He really should have learned to delegate a bit more. Well, 514 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: what I like about the story is that it does 515 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: imply some kind of scientific observation. It's just observation of 516 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: demons instead of real wildlife. But there's actually there are 517 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: other funny versions of this. There's a totally different version 518 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: of Alexander as Gilgamesh that I came across in this 519 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: illustrated manuscript. It's an early fifteenth century German manuscript telling 520 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: a story of how Alexander goes down to the bottom 521 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: of the ocean and a diving bell and he trusts 522 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: so this would be not a not an encased room 523 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: with glass windows, but like a regular diving bell. So 524 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: a bell upturned in the water that's got an air 525 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: bubble in it. And he goes down and uh. He 526 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: entrusts his loyal mistress to watch over the chain that 527 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: can pull the bell back up to the surface. And unfortunately, 528 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: while she's watching the chain, her lover gets her to 529 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: run off with him and abandoned Alexander and throw the 530 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: chain into the sea. Not good for alex I like 531 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: the theme of this though, because it basically it portrays 532 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: Alexander the Great is indeed a great individual who can 533 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: do great things and go places that no other man 534 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: can go. But in doing so, there's a there there's 535 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: there's an inherent weakness. Well, use this technology, it's not 536 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: just like magic super strength. He can swim to the 537 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: bottom of the ocean. He builds a technological marvel to 538 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: get him down there, but in doing so he neglects 539 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: his mistress. Right, Yeah, and I've got an illustration here, Robert. 540 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: You can look at that's got alex down in this 541 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: in this bubble. He's looking very unhappy. He's got a 542 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: big mustache, and he appears to be frowning and scowling 543 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: at the surface where his mistress and her lover are 544 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: cavorting in this ship. And then meanwhile in the background 545 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: there are these gigantic fish swimming by that I guess 546 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: he's not even noticing because he's angry. Yeah, and but 547 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: at least they do look like real fish and not 548 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: visions from hell. I believe the example that the William 549 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: Beebe draws on is the idea that uh that that 550 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: Alexander the Great uh observes a fish that is so 551 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: large that it takes days for it to pass him by. 552 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: So another equally outrageous uh or perhaps just uh exaggerated 553 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: example of what life might be underwater. And that's the 554 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: feeling I'm getting from all of these accounts. It sounds 555 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: like less an example of, Hey, somebody went underwater and 556 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: they saw this, but more of almost like a science 557 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: fictional scenario. What would it be like if I could 558 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: go underwater and see the things that are down there? 559 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: And then to build that I have to base it 560 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: on what do I believe exist under the water? Well, 561 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: I would say much in the same way that the 562 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: science fiction of space encouraged people to become real astronauts 563 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: and want to explore. I think maybe some of this 564 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: ancient and medieval science fiction about the underwater realms may 565 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: have inspired people to want to actually build real diving 566 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: bell technology and go down there, and that that is 567 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: what have been really happened. Genuine scientific interest in the 568 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: ocean depths and the real use of diving technologies like 569 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: the diving bell showed up again in more recent decades, 570 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: specifically starting around the sixteenth century. You you start to 571 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: see people messing with diving bells. How deep can we go? Uh? 572 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: Some of this was just for purely commercial reasons, like 573 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: people wanted to salvage shipwrecks and get rich and all that, 574 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: but also there was a genuine spirit about of exploration 575 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: about the deep ocean, to get down there and see 576 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: what you could see. But of course, as we mentioned, 577 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: diving bells have a lot of limitations. All right, on 578 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: that note, we're gonna take a quick break and when 579 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: we come back, we're gonna discuss the the pre bb 580 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: world of deep sea exploration. Just a little bit more. 581 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank alright, we're back. So we've talked about 582 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: ancient investigation into the nature of the deep sea, both 583 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: real and mythological, in the form of the Ebisum method 584 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: like fishing, pulling things up and seeing what they're like, 585 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: and the Gilgamesh method diving down and seeing what you 586 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: can see yourself. And in the nineteenth century, the Ebba 587 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: zoom method, by way of the biological dredge, was very 588 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: popular for naturalists, zoologists, socianographers, all these people trying to 589 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: understand what existed in the hidden deep. And one practitioner 590 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: of this method, the biological dredge, was the British naturalist 591 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: Edward Forbes. Now Forbes was a naturalist from the Isle 592 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: of Man. He was reportedly a very likable dude. People 593 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: people took a shine to him. But in in eighteen 594 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: forty one, Edward Forbes was on a journey aboard a 595 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: surveying ship called the h MS Beacon in the Mediterranean 596 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: Sea and during this voyage they would dredge the water. 597 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: So what you have to imagine there is like a 598 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: bag or a bucket type contraption that you would drag 599 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: along the bottom of the ocean from behind a ship, 600 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: and then when you drag it along and scoop some 601 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: stuff up, then you'd pull it back up and see 602 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: what you caught. All right. I have conducted the very 603 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: same sort of investigation in the surf with my son. 604 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: Just drag a bucket, get a bunch of sand, and 605 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: then you dump it out and see what you manage 606 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: to catch. And sometimes you do find an interesting organism. Yeah, 607 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: what have you found that way? Oh? They are we 608 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: always call them sand fleas, but they're not actual sand fleas. 609 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: They're little isopods. I can't remember this specific species name offhand, 610 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: but depending on the sort of on the Florida beach 611 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: you go to, you can find a number of these. 612 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: Aren't they the jumping ones? They don't jump. They burrow 613 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: really quickly, so basically, if you if you are able 614 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: to scoop underneath them, they can't dig away from you. Oh, 615 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: I see. And then most of them are really small, 616 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: but you can find something that are the size of 617 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: really like the size of your thumb. They're pretty fun. 618 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: That's cool, though, I thought you were referring to things 619 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: I have actually seen that. I don't know if their 620 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: fleas or what I should look up what these organisms are. 621 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: One time we were up on the northwest coast, I believe, 622 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: a beach in Oregon, and the beach was just covered 623 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: in what appeared to be jumping fleas. There these little 624 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: like white, pale fleas that would jump all over you. 625 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: It was kind of horrible. Yeah, and I think I 626 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: believe those more accurately sand fleas. And for whatever reason, 627 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: and I have talked to other it wasn't just my family, 628 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: I've talked to other people, and I've asked him, well, 629 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: what did you call these things when you were a 630 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: kid going to the beach, and the like, Oh, yeah, 631 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: we call those sand fleas. So but again they're they're 632 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: more technically a variety of issopod. Well, Forbes was playing 633 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: this game, the Drag the Bucket game at much much 634 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: deeper than just in the surf and catching much more 635 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: than just sand fleas. So Forbes noticed though, as you 636 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: play this game, as you you go through the Mediterranean 637 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: Sea on the beacon dredging the bottom that as you 638 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: move deeper and deeper into deeper waters, the dredge came 639 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: up with fewer types of organisms. So you can see 640 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: where the reasoning probably went from there right, the lower 641 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: down you go, the less life there is. So extrapolating 642 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: from his observations, in eighteen forty three, Forbes proposed what 643 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: came to be known as the abyssess theory or the 644 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: a zoic hypothesis. And this specifically said that below three 645 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: hundred fathoms, which is about five hundred and fifty meters 646 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: or eighteen hundred feet, the oceans were completely dead. Now 647 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: this makes a certain kind of sense, right, Like a 648 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: lot of false hypotheses, it has this sense of truthiness, 649 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: It feels right, and other contemporary scientists backed Forbes up. 650 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: So I'm going to quote from an eighteen sixty three 651 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: text book by the Scottish geologist David Page, in which 652 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: pages discussing the powerful compression effects of vast amounts of water. 653 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: So he explains that at four thousand fathoms, the pressure 654 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: of the ocean would be about seven hundred and fifty atmospheres, 655 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: and he considers that just intolerable. Quote at vast depths. Therefore, 656 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: it is generally supposed that vegetable and animal life has 657 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: known to us could not possibly exist, And though some 658 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: recent soundings of the North Seas at the depth of 659 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: one thousand, two hundred and sixty fathoms would seem to 660 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: oppose this opinion. Yet the paucity and uncertainty of these 661 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: trials leave the question still in doubt, and we may, 662 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: in the meantime adhere to the general belief that the 663 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: extreme depressions of the ocean, like the extreme elevations of 664 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: the land, are barren and lifeless solitudes. All right, So 665 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: in this case, he's drawing upon just the idea that 666 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: the water pressure would be too great for life as 667 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: we know it to exist. I mean truthie, right, Like, 668 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: if you're under seven fifty atmospheres, couldn't possibly be a 669 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: thing to survive? That? Right? Okay, yeah, I can I 670 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: can see where that that idea could had a certain 671 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: amount of truthiness to it. Uh. Now, certainly we know 672 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: that that that that the sunlit portions of the ocean, 673 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: that that's where most of the life is. That is 674 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: where that's where you encounter all of the plankton, the 675 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: creatures that feed upon the plankton, uh, creatures that depend 676 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: upon the sunlight, and then the creatures that consume those organisms. 677 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: That is going to be found in the upper ocean. 678 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: But another thing they could have reasoned, is I wonder 679 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: what happens to all those organisms in the sunlit area 680 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: when they die? And then if they're gonna if they're 681 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: gonna be packing some good chemical energy with them after 682 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: they die, wouldn't something want to take advantage of that exactly? 683 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: And then you you also have to begin to say, well, 684 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: if everything is, if all the life is up here 685 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: in the sunlit ocean, then isn't the dark ocean? Isn't 686 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: that a great place to say, go hide out? Is 687 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: it a great place just maybe set up as your 688 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: main base of operations? Right? So, really, this hypothesis should 689 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: have been a nonstarter. Forbes was completely wrong, uh, since 690 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: many dredging experiments had already at the time of Forbes 691 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: caught life forms from depths of below three fathoms. Page 692 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: alludes to this. Nevertheless, it was supported by some for 693 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: several decades, but later biologists and oceanographers eventually just beat 694 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: this zombie down like that. It didn't survive all that 695 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: much longer. And one of the many researchers to assist 696 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: in knocking down the zombie a zoic hypothesis was the 697 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: Scottish naturalist Charles Wyville. Thompson, and in an eighteen seventy 698 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: three report called The Depths of the Sea, Thompson published 699 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 1: the results of his own dredging expeditions in the seas 700 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: north of Scotland. So, while dredging to a depth of 701 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: six d and fifty fathoms, he discovered all kinds of 702 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: invertebrate organisms that Forbes had missed. And I'm not sure 703 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: of the reason, but one thing I've read that may 704 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: or may not be true is that later investigators had 705 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: better dredging equipment than Forbes, which was less likely to 706 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: spill the things it caught on the way back up 707 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: to the surface. You can imagine this would be a problem. 708 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: You're like trying to pull up the stuff you caught, 709 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: and it's just like going all over the place. Yeah, 710 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: your bucket isn't big enough for You're not handling the 711 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 1: bucket properly and run into all sorts of problems. Now. 712 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: Thompson would also go on to head up one of 713 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 1: the most important oceanographic research expeditions of all time about 714 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: the deep sea, which was the Challenger Expedition beginning in 715 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy two, which did a lot of stuff. It's 716 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: circumnavigated the globe on a ship called the HMS Challenger, 717 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: and it collected an absolute wealth of scientific observation, much 718 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: of which is still relevant today. They catalog more than 719 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: four thousand new species. They did soundings in the ocean 720 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: all over the world and came up with the general 721 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: shape of Earth's ocean basins. And they discovered ocean features 722 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 1: like the mid Atlantic Ridge and the Challenger Deep, which 723 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: is of course named for the expedition. But still as 724 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: wonderful as all this knowledge was, there were still limits 725 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: imposed by the fact that they were using what we 726 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: what I've been calling the EBB zoom method. They're they're 727 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: pulling stuff up from the bottom. Like imagine trying to 728 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: study the Amazon rainforest by flying over it in an 729 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: airplane and dragging a bucket along the forest floor behind you, 730 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: and then reeling it up and seeing what you've got 731 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: in the bucket. Like, you see some problems already, but 732 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: also a factor in the differences in the conditions of 733 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: the deep ocean and the surface where we want to 734 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: study the things we pull up from the bottom, that 735 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: that's a problem too, Right, You've got massive changes in light, 736 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: in temperature, which is a big one and in pressure, 737 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: and so maybe a better analogy is like imagining an 738 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: alien adallite studying us by scooping us up in a 739 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: net and then pulling us up into outer space to 740 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: have a look. Right. Sometimes organisms dredged up from the 741 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: deep ocean can be kept alive if you keep them refrigerated, 742 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: but other times they're just going to be killed or 743 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: even reduced to google in the process of removing them 744 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: from their natural environment. One interesting fact is that many 745 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: deep secret creatures are actually able to withstand lower pressure 746 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: on the surface, and others are not. For example, I 747 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: found a blog post by a marine biologist named Dr 748 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: Craig McClain who wrote, quote, I've tried to collect a 749 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: particularly gelatinous red sea cucumber several times. Each time at 750 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: the surface. When I pulled a collection canister off the 751 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: r o V, the canister is filled with thick red 752 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: kool aid, which I presume is the remains of the 753 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: red sea cucumber. So there are these limitations to the 754 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: ebissue method. If you want to keep pulling stuff up 755 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,919 Speaker 1: from the bottom to study it at the top, you're 756 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: always going to have a sort of cap on what 757 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: sorts of scientific progress you're able to make. So would 758 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,439 Speaker 1: there ever be a better way to study the deep 759 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: other than these incredibly dangerous and limited power diving bells? 760 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: What a true Gilgamesh method arise? Ah, well, Joe, a 761 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: true Gilgamesh will arise, But he's gonna have to wait 762 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: till next episode because I think we're out of time 763 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: here today. So that is going to be the next 764 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: episode where we primarily discussed the bathosphere and the work 765 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,439 Speaker 1: of William bb correct. But yeah, before we close out today, 766 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: I just want to try to imagine what it's like 767 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 1: to be in an oceanographer or a marine biologists mindset 768 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: before we get to the bathosphere. Leaving off at the 769 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: end of everything we've discussed today, right, so, you you've 770 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: been stuck on the surface of the water. You just 771 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: can't really dive down and see what's beneath the ocean yourself, 772 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: or at least not very well, and so you're you're 773 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: limited to these methods of dragging buckets along or trawling 774 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: with nets, or trying to scoop stuff up from the 775 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: from the sea floor. What what is that like to have, 776 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: like not have a cess to all of this life 777 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: that you want to study and and always performing these 778 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: kind of like random samplings is the only way to 779 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: get at it. Yeah. And then even as these various 780 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: technologies do come on online, which I alluded to earlier, 781 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: you you don't have the ability to really get into 782 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 1: the depths. There are depths of the ocean that are 783 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: just beyond your ability to venture into. Yeah, and you can't. 784 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: You can't explore and see it the way it's supposed 785 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: to be, right, or I mean supposed to be the 786 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: way it naturally is. To study, you must destroy if 787 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: you're going to be sampling in the ebissue method, right, 788 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: and but then how do you explore it yourself without 789 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: destroying yourself? Essentially? And that that is where the bathmosphere 790 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,439 Speaker 1: comes in next time on Stuff to Blow your Mind, 791 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: It's almost like nature doesn't want us to explore the 792 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: deep sea. Yeah, it's almost like it's a warning or 793 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: it's almost like we're we're fragile flesh creatures that have 794 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: have evolved only to thrive within a very slim portion 795 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: of our own environment. Uh. So hey, we're gonna we 796 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: are going to leave you now. Uh. If you want 797 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 798 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: Dot com, many of which have involved the ocean, in 799 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: many cases the deep ocean. Then you can find them there. 800 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: You also find blog post links out to our various 801 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: social media accounts as well. Huge thanks as always to 802 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison. If 803 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us to 804 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: let us know feedback on this episode or any other, 805 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for a future episode, or just 806 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: to say hi, you can email us at blow the 807 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff works dot com for more on 808 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff 809 00:43:47,640 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: works dot com a bit peas three twenty four twin 810 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: four propo