Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2: Just an old fashioned love song playing on the radio.
Speaker 1: And wrapped around the music. That's my guest today, Paul
Speaker 1: Williams performing just an old fashioned love song from his
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one album of the same name. You swear
Speaker 1: you've heard it before as it slowly rambles on and on.
Speaker 3: No need in bringing him back because they've never releaged one.
Speaker 4: Just an old.
Speaker 5: Fashioned love song.
Speaker 1: Williams is an Oscar, Grammy and Golden Globe winning songwriter, musicians, singer,
Speaker 1: and actor. He's known for songs like Evergreen, We've Only
Speaker 1: Just Begun, and Rainbow Connection. He's also written the score
Speaker 1: and lyrics for renowned films such as Barbara Streisand's version
Speaker 1: of A Star Is Born, bugsy Malone, The Phantom of
Speaker 1: the Paradise, and The Muppet Movie. His work has been
Speaker 1: recorded by legendary artists like Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, The Carpenters,
Speaker 1: and Kermit the Frog. Paul Williams is also the current
Speaker 1: President and Chairman of the American Songwriting Society ASCAP. With
Speaker 1: such an illustrious career that spans generations. I wondered what
Speaker 1: brilliant new work Williams has been conjuring up these days.
Speaker 2: The most recent thing is I'm doing Pans Labyrinth for
Speaker 2: this stage with Giama del Toro.
Speaker 4: Wow and wonderful.
Speaker 2: We've been working on it for years because he goes
Speaker 2: aways and does movies and then whatever like that job,
Speaker 2: and it's just I'm like, I finally went, you know what,
Speaker 2: I fucking surrender. I'm going to take it out of
Speaker 2: my bio. I mean, if it happens, it's wonderful. I mean,
Speaker 2: we've Gustavo Santo a Lion, I've written the songs, we've
Speaker 2: got if anything, we've overridden them all, and it's like,
Speaker 2: if it happens, this is magnificent. If it doesn't happen,
Speaker 2: then there's something better. I totally surrender. The next morning,
Speaker 2: at eight am in the morning, I got an email
Speaker 2: from Getnimo's partners and that the JJ Abrams was going
Speaker 2: to produce And I mean that more that that's good.
Speaker 4: Instant surrender.
Speaker 1: It's a good group.
Speaker 4: You know, you JJ pretty good to me, you know,
Speaker 4: but it's you know, and it's like I'm eighty four,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: You ain't stopping. Oh man, all my friends who are
Speaker 1: successful who have rounded that corner at eighty, Laurene Michaels,
Speaker 1: this one, that one, all turned eighty this year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they all have the same thing, especially Lauren, I would
Speaker 1: imagine because he's so successful. He's at the height of
Speaker 1: his success, and it's like these guys are like, I'm
Speaker 1: not done. You know, you say when you want to
Speaker 1: slow down and stop, it like stop, I don't want
Speaker 1: to stop. They go to the twenty years.
Speaker 2: If they could, you know, if I was sitting on
Speaker 2: my porch shilling and get get off my lawn, I'd
Speaker 2: be dead. My wife puts up with me what she
Speaker 2: calls it growling, because I'm like, she said, it's like
Speaker 2: you unconsciously have to keep There's something about music that
Speaker 2: keeps going because in my now, because I can't hear,
Speaker 2: I don't perform much anymore because finding the notice is
Speaker 2: like like Shakespeare and drug tragedy. But in my head
Speaker 2: I'm hearing Dada and it's coming out, so it's like,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's pathetic.
Speaker 1: But here's what I want to ask you when I
Speaker 1: look at you for this show, because I'm I'm obviously
Speaker 1: you know who you are. I know your career, I
Speaker 1: know you're to Palma movie. I know all that stuff
Speaker 1: from when I was younger. And when I look at you,
Speaker 1: you seem like the coolest guy in the world. Like
Speaker 1: everybody would go with you and go party and they'd
Speaker 1: have the greatest time. The music and you're funny and
Speaker 1: you know all these Did you feel that way? Did
Speaker 1: you you have a run where you just had so
Speaker 1: much fun?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, and the thing is, who is that I wanted
Speaker 2: to be with? There was a guy named her Pacheco
Speaker 2: was a buddy who became a road manager. We used
Speaker 2: to joke we called him the Bison because he looked
Speaker 2: like the Indian and made it with a buffalo, and
Speaker 2: he was what happened with the Bison. Her Pacheco, he
Speaker 2: played my Bodyguarden foundom with the Paradise and he used
Speaker 2: to buy you know, like he was an extra who
Speaker 2: did a little bit of stunt work that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: you know, and just the coolest guy in the world,
Speaker 2: I mean, just amazing. And he knew everybody because he
Speaker 2: bought them, you know, like he you know, when he
Speaker 2: did the greatest story ever told in the Desert. He
Speaker 2: was getting everybody their grass, you know, well not everybody
Speaker 2: but the hippists of the hippists, right, And he introduced
Speaker 2: me to Bob Mitcham. That's everything I wanted in my
Speaker 2: life is that is to have some of the guy
Speaker 2: that used to buy, used to sell, you know, get
Speaker 2: grass for Bob Mitcham. So I met I met Bob
Speaker 2: Mitcham and he was shooting a picture in London.
Speaker 4: It was a very no Ah kind of a picture.
Speaker 4: We hit it off.
Speaker 2: He called me dough boy, and I was, you know,
Speaker 2: I did a lot of blow. I did a lot
Speaker 2: of vodka. I can never have been able to smoke
Speaker 2: grass because I turn into it like I just you know,
Speaker 2: I am curled up behind a shout and not in bed,
Speaker 2: but under the bed going because you know, peeking out
Speaker 2: the edition blinds, looking at the tree police because they're
Speaker 2: coming for me.
Speaker 4: I mean, I just go right.
Speaker 1: For that gun.
Speaker 2: I'm scared exactly that. And the furniture is talking about me.
Speaker 2: You know, that's absolutely true.
Speaker 4: But he was.
Speaker 2: He called me dough boy, you like, and he always
Speaker 2: have a joint with him and he goes, do boy,
Speaker 2: this is no good, but you're gonna love it. I
Speaker 2: gonna pably, can't. I don't do I don't you know
Speaker 2: even no, no, no, this is no you got it,
Speaker 2: you got it.
Speaker 4: This is so fucking mild here and you have a
Speaker 4: hit of it.
Speaker 2: And then he had tossed me the car keys, which
Speaker 2: looked like a satellite coming through the air, you know,
Speaker 2: and he had say, you know, I'm really fucked up.
Speaker 4: You're gonna have to.
Speaker 2: Drive, and I would and then they would just laugh
Speaker 2: at me, you know. But that was to me, that
Speaker 2: was maybe the peak of my If there was any
Speaker 2: time that I felt cool, it was then. The other
Speaker 2: times were when I would do almost anything to make
Speaker 2: her really love me because she was so cool, and
Speaker 2: so I said things. I mean, I said stuff on
Speaker 2: the Tonight Show. It was just kind of you know.
Speaker 2: I didn't edit myself very much, and I made the
Speaker 2: band laugh and I made you know, Johnny laughed, you know,
Speaker 2: the atire. I can't remember the name of the producer
Speaker 2: of the Cordova. Yeah, yeah, Freddy Kordadeva. I would sit
Speaker 2: there and go, why do you have to do it?
Speaker 2: After sits down next to me, she says, I just
Speaker 2: kept go back from Maine.
Speaker 4: It was my family.
Speaker 2: We did this amazing thing where we clean the entire
Speaker 2: house and a huge place in all and we did
Speaker 2: it in four days. And I said, the family is
Speaker 2: in amphetamines. You know, they made a fortunate at it.
Speaker 2: And Freddy's like, why do you do that?
Speaker 4: I don't know, I believe that out. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, my wife Marianna reminded me when we first met.
Speaker 2: She said, I really loved you based on one thing
Speaker 2: you said that I thought was really unusual and interesting.
Speaker 2: On the Tonight show, she said, you described yourself as
Speaker 2: a combination of Oscar Levan and Donnie Osmond. Is like
Speaker 2: trying to exclude you know, who knows what. But I've
Speaker 2: been a construction brat. I went to a new I was.
Speaker 2: I went to ninth schools. By the time I was
Speaker 2: in the ninth grade, my dad was going around the builder,
Speaker 2: you know, and he drank and he would get me
Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night, just sing, you know,
Speaker 2: for his buddy like McShane, who hated me. Incidentally, all
Speaker 2: he wanted to do was get privately fried, and he
Speaker 2: didn't want to hear some gnomes singing Danny Boy. But
Speaker 2: my dad would get me up to sing. And people
Speaker 2: always said, in one of these days, you're going to
Speaker 2: kill yourself. You're going to kill these kids because you're
Speaker 2: driving like that. He was a big, sweet, sentimental drunk
Speaker 2: you dad, My daddy looks your mom. My mom was
Speaker 2: was just a sweet and wet hands and an apron mom,
Speaker 2: you know. And he died that he drove his car
Speaker 2: under the abovement of a bridge, went through the windshield.
Speaker 4: Died a week later.
Speaker 2: When I was thirteen, and I was shipped off to
Speaker 2: live with an aunt and uncle, who I found out
Speaker 2: later he hated her and that they didn't get along.
Speaker 2: But she told me, look, if you go back to
Speaker 2: live with your mom, your brother's going to starve because
Speaker 2: she can't afford both of you. So I want you
Speaker 2: to write your mom told it you want to stay here,
Speaker 2: which is the last thing I wanted.
Speaker 4: So it's my childhood was rest.
Speaker 1: To confront some tough things at a young age.
Speaker 4: Dickensiean, you know.
Speaker 1: So you are persuaded that this is the best thing
Speaker 1: financially for your mother, so you stay.
Speaker 2: With the California, stay with the ant. And the fact
Speaker 2: is what part of California Long Beach, down Long Beach,
Speaker 2: And you know, I had been. I've been one of
Speaker 2: those little kids who wanted to sing. I'd stand on
Speaker 2: my mom would turn her back on me at a
Speaker 2: department store and I'd be telling somebody I can sing,
Speaker 2: I can sing, and she'd find me standing on a
Speaker 2: counter with a little bunch of money around my feet.
Speaker 2: But after my dad, it was gone. Music was gone.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I just your heart's on.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: All I knew is that I wanted, you know, A
Speaker 2: good therapist has said a couple of them have said,
Speaker 2: you wanted to be somebody else, you know. And I
Speaker 2: was also really you know when I was This is
Speaker 2: a huge, a big part of my story is that
Speaker 2: when I was about eight or nine, I was really tiny.
Speaker 2: My dad was like, should he be running under coffee
Speaker 2: tables at this age, you know? And she said no,
Speaker 2: I'm not taking to the doctor. So there was a
Speaker 2: country doctor who said I can make this kid grow,
Speaker 2: and he gave me a male hormone. Wrong thing to
Speaker 2: do because it kind of closes off with the bones.
Speaker 2: But it also kicked me into a premature puberty. And
Speaker 2: suddenly I have no interest in my toy chest, but
Speaker 2: my hand in his chest is suddenly yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and they spot down there. All I wanted to do
Speaker 2: is get let's get asking little girls, Let's get in
Speaker 2: the closet and kiss like they do in the movies.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The thing is that when they took me off of
Speaker 2: the hormones and all, it screwed up my body clock.
Speaker 2: So I didn't hit puberty televens like out of high school.
Speaker 1: You know, So you stunted your growth physically.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2: All I know is that I'm thrilled to be who
Speaker 2: I am, and you know it's all been a gift
Speaker 2: and it's all worked for me.
Speaker 1: But if what you've done creatively and what you've done
Speaker 1: just because there's a there's what I consider the performer's spirit,
Speaker 1: no matter how great they are talent wise. Patty Lapone
Speaker 1: is great, but she just has this extra block of
Speaker 1: some energy, some weird fissionable energy, which you have. You
Speaker 1: are a real performer. You can sing, you can act,
Speaker 1: you can do anything. When people go back and look
Speaker 1: at the songs you wrote, it's like almost unbelievable.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a songwriter because of Robert Devall. I believe
Speaker 2: it's a really weird story. Well, first of all, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm in Long Reach and everything. I graduate, I go
Speaker 2: home for a couple of years whatever, and head back
Speaker 2: to Hollywood to try to make it. I get cast
Speaker 2: in a movie called The Loved One, you know I
Speaker 2: did playing in Long Beach.
Speaker 4: They got good reviews from.
Speaker 2: The LA Examiner, you know, said Pauliams has a rare
Speaker 2: gift of seeming spontaneous in the theater. I took that line,
Speaker 2: memorized it and showed it everybody and got an agent.
Speaker 2: So I did The Loved One, and then two years later,
Speaker 2: just like that, I got another acting job on a
Speaker 2: movie called The Chase. Marlon Browno, Robert Redford, jun fond.
Speaker 2: I mean, a huge picture. So we're shooting at night.
Speaker 2: They've got everybody is older than eighteen, but looks younger.
Speaker 2: I'm playing a sixteen year old, and you know, I
Speaker 2: mean the script is they're going to develop your store,
Speaker 2: going to develop your story. They didn't really, but in
Speaker 2: the meantime, I'm sharing the dressing room with a guy
Speaker 2: named Mark Seaton, his dad, with George Setting and the
Speaker 2: director a lot of money. Beautiful guitar that he's got
Speaker 2: Martin guitar I picked up, he says, don't touch the guitar.
Speaker 2: It's Martin, I said. I didn't know they had names,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I didn't know Martin guitar. But
Speaker 2: I went on my ball, wanted a little cheap guitar.
Speaker 2: I painted it like like a stained glass window. And
Speaker 2: I'm teaching myself chords. So one night they're shooting of
Speaker 2: the scene where the US kids have set fire to
Speaker 2: a junkyard that Bubba reeves it was Robert Redford is
Speaker 2: hiding in the in the junkyard, and I've got my
Speaker 2: little guitar sitting on the steps of the world's smallest
Speaker 2: motor home, a Teardrop motor home, and I'm just making
Speaker 2: stuff up, looking for the chord, and I go, bubbah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah bah, come out wherever you are. Oh,
Speaker 2: we're gone, A calm man and get you. Yes, we're gone,
Speaker 2: a com man and get you. And Robert Davall is
Speaker 2: walking by, and Robert Davall says, what's that. I said,
Speaker 2: it's the guitar.
Speaker 4: I just boughted. He went out the guitar. What were
Speaker 4: you singing?
Speaker 2: And it's it's Robert Coke and Robert Davalla, I said,
Speaker 2: I just made it up, and I'm convinced. I'm at
Speaker 2: this point, I'm in trouble. Maybe you're not supposed to
Speaker 2: be singing on a set. And he said, come with me,
Speaker 2: and now I'm now I'm nervous. He walks me over
Speaker 2: to the heart of the set where they're shooting, and
Speaker 2: Arthur Penny whispered some of him. He said, show him
Speaker 2: to me. I said, it's the guitar. I just it's
Speaker 2: just why it's not the guitar.
Speaker 1: So I keep making this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I go blab blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Well I get two like those two lines out and
Speaker 2: he says, come over here, stand by the barbed wire,
Speaker 2: light them up and lights up all the gas fires
Speaker 2: and they shoot it. They shoot me in the back
Speaker 2: of the roadster. They he shoots me about four different places,
Speaker 2: maybe three places, and singing those two lines, and it's
Speaker 2: in the movie.
Speaker 5: Yeah, or we'll come in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're gonna come in and get you that again.
Speaker 2: You're any human being that is woke as to use
Speaker 2: a phrase would have immediately gone, okay, acting isn't working
Speaker 2: for me. It's been two years since the last job.
Speaker 2: This is I mean it's but I'm sure I had
Speaker 2: no idea that it was going to be in the
Speaker 2: movie until it came out, and it may have been.
Speaker 4: Two years later.
Speaker 2: It took me probably two years to start writing songs,
Speaker 2: but I somehow that just became my journal.
Speaker 4: It was my therapy.
Speaker 1: Had you written songs before? But eventually you get to
Speaker 1: a point. Do you play piano horribly?
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean when I sit down on my
Speaker 2: band would actually walk off stage. If I sat at
Speaker 2: the piano, they go. I started running on guitar, but basically,
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just sitting at home. I brought my
Speaker 2: mother out to take care of her because I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna know I'm on the chase side.
Speaker 4: It is all gonna be a big career. Nothing. I
Speaker 4: don't even have a phone.
Speaker 2: But I get hired to do as an improvisational actor
Speaker 2: on the Mortsaul Show. Mortsol had a local television show
Speaker 2: and it was all about the Kennedy assassination. It's all
Speaker 2: about the warrant commission. It was all about New Orleans
Speaker 2: and all that anyway. So he brought me in and
Speaker 2: I played a boy scout, an eagle scout who goes
Speaker 2: in to get his Eagle Scout stuff and gets recruited
Speaker 2: by the president, and the guy named Biff Rows plays
Speaker 2: a chicken delight. Guy comes in and he gets recruited,
Speaker 2: and the two of them men, we started writing together.
Speaker 2: We wrote about four songs. He wrote, played me a song.
Speaker 2: He said, this is funny, and that's not funny, it's pretty.
Speaker 2: He said, well, write words to it then, so we did.
Speaker 2: We wrote, we did some acid, we wrote some words whatever,
Speaker 2: and he went to A and M Records and played
Speaker 2: him a bunch of songs and they gave him some
Speaker 2: an advance publishing deal. And as he's walking out the door,
Speaker 2: he says, there's a couple of songs there that I
Speaker 2: wrote with another guy. I wrote the words, and he said, well,
Speaker 2: give me his number, of all call him. He's never food,
Speaker 2: but I'll tell him, so I will go in. The
Speaker 2: song was called fill your Heart, and within about a
Speaker 2: week after I signed a deal with him, was recorded
Speaker 2: on the B side of the Tiny tim album or
Speaker 2: Tiny Tipto through the Tulos, which they turned over and
Speaker 2: played I mean, I'm like, I love tiny but that's
Speaker 2: not what I want to be. I mean, if I'm
Speaker 2: but one of the great things that we just cannot
Speaker 2: plot our lives. You know, you can't plan it. It was
Speaker 2: recorded years later by David boy Song on Hunky Dory
Speaker 2: album and it was like, thank you God.
Speaker 1: Musician, songwriter and actor Paul Williams. If you enjoy conversations
Speaker 1: with legendary musicians, check out my interview with Gordon Lightfoot.
Speaker 3: One summer I wrote that song Sundowner. I knew that
Speaker 3: it was going to happen, and it didn't work up
Speaker 3: to number one. That was our second one. Then it
Speaker 3: was two albums later that we had the rec of
Speaker 3: the Edmine Fitzgerald that became a responsibility. It did because
Speaker 3: only one verse contained any conjecture of any kind of
Speaker 3: the rest of it was taken from directly from newspaper
Speaker 3: articles and the aftermath, which only lasted for about three days.
Speaker 3: If I had not wrote that song, everybody would have
Speaker 3: forgotten about it a week after it happened.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Gordon Lightfoot, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Paul
Speaker 1: Williams shares how a jingle for a bank commercial turned
Speaker 1: into the song We've Only just Begun. I'm Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. Paul Williams has written
Speaker 1: countless iconic songs like You and Me against the World,
Speaker 1: Rainy Days and Mondays, and one of my personal favorites,
Speaker 1: I Won't Last a Day without You. I was curious
Speaker 1: about the process behind creating such legendary work and how
Speaker 1: Paul Williams got his start as a lyricist.
Speaker 2: The whole point when they signed me at A and
Speaker 2: M Records is they were looking for a lyricist for
Speaker 2: a guy at six foot four basketball player and scholarship whatever.
Speaker 2: Guy that was a piano player named Roger Nichols, Roger Nichols,
Speaker 2: and I wrote like he gave me a melody, and
Speaker 2: he said, you know, we're looking for a lyricist for Roger.
Speaker 2: And he gave me a melody, says take it home
Speaker 2: to see what you think of it. At ten o'clock
Speaker 2: the next morning, I was there with a lyric for it,
Speaker 2: and he said, really, And so I wrote a lyric
Speaker 2: called It's hard to say goodbye, to turn away with
Speaker 2: no regrets, no regrets for fears, no good byes, to
Speaker 2: say love just never seems to work. That it was
Speaker 2: clauding large. So the same day I had Clauding Lage
Speaker 2: and Tiny Tam What kind of a songwriter am I?
Speaker 2: But Roger and I wrote album cuts, B sides, nothing
Speaker 2: on it for like maybe three years, and I have
Speaker 2: to tell you that one day there's a knock of
Speaker 2: the door and it's the head of publishing and he's
Speaker 2: got two kids with him. He said, this is Karen
Speaker 2: and Richard Carpenter and there are newest artists. So we
Speaker 2: started feeding them as songs. The first thing they recorded
Speaker 2: was they had a B side, too close to You.
Speaker 2: And then the next thing we wrote a song for
Speaker 2: a commercial that we expanded to a full song. I
Speaker 2: sang in the commercial commercial for a bank. Richard saw
Speaker 2: it said, is there a full song? We've only just begune?
Speaker 2: So we've only just begune rainyties and mondays, I won't
Speaker 2: last a day without you?
Speaker 1: Now tell me about that? How did he Lane make
Speaker 1: come to you? And obviously the big red hot Warren Houser.
Speaker 2: Warren had asked me to write a song for Heaving
Speaker 2: Can Wait, and I, you know, I looked at the
Speaker 2: picture or whatever. I said, you don't need you don't
Speaker 2: need a song. You got cherry repeat. He did that,
Speaker 2: you know, I said, that's that, you know? So I
Speaker 2: you know, and I've done that two or three times.
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of it because if I look at
Speaker 2: a picture and I go, it doesn't need a song,
Speaker 2: then I know I have a chance to I can.
Speaker 2: I can either make some a bunch of money and
Speaker 2: write a song it doesn't work, or I can you know,
Speaker 2: or I can you know?
Speaker 4: Trust it? Another one is going to come.
Speaker 2: So you know, I said no, and which I think
Speaker 2: oppressed him. And when it came up to time for
Speaker 2: his star, he thought about me write the songs for
Speaker 2: the movie because he thought it was funny.
Speaker 4: And it's not choice, it was his idea. It was
Speaker 4: his idea.
Speaker 2: So Warren and I met, and it took forever to
Speaker 2: give him to give me the job. It's like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like wark, you know, it's like, can we begin
Speaker 2: to talk about actually doing this? Because teen chapel with
Speaker 2: him every day, every fucking everything.
Speaker 4: So but Elaine.
Speaker 2: I met Elaine and I started writing songs and she
Speaker 2: Elaine is magnificent and shooting with Warren and Dustin. She
Speaker 2: shoots so many takes and never tell them what she wants.
Speaker 2: She said, I'll see you. I'll know it when I
Speaker 2: see it. What do you want? I'll know what do
Speaker 2: you want? I'll know when I hear it. So I'm
Speaker 2: writing songs. I'm writing songs.
Speaker 4: She's going on. I don't know.
Speaker 2: He puts me up at the wall door from there
Speaker 2: for weeks writing songs, and you know, And then I
Speaker 2: wrote a song called that a lawnmower Can Do All
Speaker 2: that I will illustrate Saturday morning. The sound of a
Speaker 2: lawnmower touches my soul, touches my soul, brings back the
Speaker 2: memory of first summer love of will and me will
Speaker 2: end me. That a lawnmower can do all that that
Speaker 2: alon More can do, all that that alawn More can do,
Speaker 2: all that It's amazing. She leans forward, and then I sing.
Speaker 2: I can see her standing in the backyard of my mind.
Speaker 2: She cracks her knuckles in this scab Thatt's on her knee,
Speaker 2: won't go away. I can see the woman waiting in
Speaker 2: her eyes, and I can see the love, but I
Speaker 2: can't see the Brooklyn Dodgers in la She went done.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I want.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: What she wanted was something that was good that gets
Speaker 2: screwed up. Telling the truth can be dangerous business. Honest
Speaker 2: and popular don't go hand in hand. If you admit
Speaker 2: that you can play the accordion, no one will hire
Speaker 2: you in a rock and roll band. Two mismatched songwriters
Speaker 2: working together, and I approached it. I mean I think
Speaker 2: I wrote thirty five songs for it, and she wanted
Speaker 2: to hear the entire song for two lines in the movie.
Speaker 2: She wanted to hear Warren and Dustin singing instead of me,
Speaker 2: because she's when you singing, it sounds like a song.
Speaker 4: It was a wonderful job.
Speaker 1: But like when you're on The Carson Show in the
Speaker 1: makeup from the Planet of the Apes thing, one of
Speaker 1: the things I learned about you is that you've got
Speaker 1: to be a really talented songwriter to write bad songs,
Speaker 1: and you got to be a really talented singer to
Speaker 1: sing badly.
Speaker 2: We'll give the fact it's about it's got to be
Speaker 2: about believable, though, and I approached. I totally approached his star.
Speaker 2: As an actor, I wouldn't habit Chuck and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have it Lyle, and they had different different backstories.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: I spent so much time in front of the camera
Speaker 2: in the seventies. In the eighties, somebody else was using
Speaker 2: my body, so I wasn't working much. But I mean
Speaker 2: I did so much live action, bad cartoon acting. And
Speaker 2: you know, I just spent two years with Billy Bob
Speaker 2: on Goliath, and it's like, I mean, that level, the
Speaker 2: level you work at, the level that he works at,
Speaker 2: is there's no imitation, there's no acting. It's it's it's
Speaker 2: feeling and inhabiting, and it's just there's nothing that excites.
Speaker 4: Me more then.
Speaker 2: I mean, the idea of playing a scene with Bruce,
Speaker 2: you know, is just God.
Speaker 1: You You've done so many TV spots your acting career,
Speaker 1: it's like an iceberg in most people's minds. And then
Speaker 1: don't realize you've done countless guest spots and you know,
Speaker 1: smoking in the band. Was he fun to shoot with?
Speaker 4: Oh my god? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, first of all, it's Pat McCormick, and
Speaker 2: I Pat McCormick is one of my best friends, you know.
Speaker 2: So I'm visiting Pat and when he was the chief
Speaker 2: writer on the monologue writer on The Tonight Show. So
Speaker 2: I'd go over and I'd do some game show or something.
Speaker 2: I'm with you know, doing Hollywood Squares or something. Then
Speaker 2: I'd run over. I mean, I did forty eight Tonight shows.
Speaker 2: But I'd also just show over to hang out with Pat.
Speaker 2: And I'm standing with Pat off just talking.
Speaker 1: About the extent up comic Pat McCormick, Pat.
Speaker 2: Mccormay, Pat Pat McCormick six foot six, played my dad.
Speaker 2: He played my dad, very funny, one of the funniest
Speaker 2: writers in the world and performing and perform and one
Speaker 2: of the sweetest human beings in the world. And dangers
Speaker 2: to hang out with because we never slept, you know.
Speaker 2: So I'm over there, you know, leaning against the wall
Speaker 2: or something with Pat McCormick and Burt Reynolds looks at
Speaker 2: the two of us and goes, oh my god, I
Speaker 2: got an idea. So that's what he put us together
Speaker 2: to begin his little meetings. Dad, I'd like to kick
Speaker 2: kids ass just once, just you know, I'm gonna tell
Speaker 2: you what now, Your mommy is so ugly. It was just,
Speaker 2: you know, And so we did three of them. I mean,
Speaker 2: they kept giving us more smoking the band at one,
Speaker 2: two and even worse. There was no story it was,
Speaker 2: but it was one time I showed up second or
Speaker 2: the third one, got off the plane, got in the car,
Speaker 2: was driven to the hospoats. We stayed on McCormick standing
Speaker 2: outside of his house phone and it goes, this is
Speaker 2: the best time I've ever had on a movie.
Speaker 4: I've already been rolled because you have blood on his shirt.
Speaker 1: Talk about rainbow connection. I mean, for you, music is music.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter where it lays into the project.
Speaker 2: When I met Jim Henson, I went over did the
Speaker 2: Muppet Show in England, and you know, I was never
Speaker 2: a kid that was in a gang that had a treehouse.
Speaker 2: When I walked on the set of the Muppet Show,
Speaker 2: I was with a gang that had a treehouse. Who
Speaker 2: was the most wonderful? I mean there was an energy.
Speaker 2: First of all, did you ever work with him? Did
Speaker 2: you ever work with the Muppets?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Oh, you would have put him be in a perfect
Speaker 2: fit because you're just crazy enough. You have an edgy
Speaker 2: you know, you'll do anything. But the thing is that
Speaker 2: there is a creative freedom. What was unique I think
Speaker 2: about about Jim Henson is that he let us breathe.
Speaker 2: But anyway, we had a good time on the show,
Speaker 2: and he said there's a thing called him an Outter's
Speaker 2: jug Band Christmas. We're going to shoot it's it's a
Speaker 2: Christmas show, a one hour thing, and I'd like you
Speaker 2: to write the songs for it. I wrote the songs
Speaker 2: for it. It's actually at this point now I says
Speaker 2: stage play as well. But I think it was my
Speaker 2: audition for the Muffet movie. So he loved the songs
Speaker 2: for the first one. So we said, I want you
Speaker 2: to do the Muppet movie. I said, I want to
Speaker 2: bring a guy named Kenny Asheron to write the songs
Speaker 2: with me. Kenny and I wrote most of the songs
Speaker 2: for A Star is Born with Barbarus Dreisen his music
Speaker 2: my words. And I had a great relations for him.
Speaker 2: We've been working on an unproduced musical about Dorothy Parker.
Speaker 2: We were, you know, its like he buildst Ive felt better.
Speaker 2: It was that kind of a relationship, you know, And
Speaker 2: so I brought him in and this is this is
Speaker 2: Jim Hansen, Jim Henson is opened my Place in the
Speaker 2: Hollywood Hills with you know, with Frank Oz and we're
Speaker 2: talking about where the songs go. We're kind of spotting
Speaker 2: the picture in advance, because you have to previews or
Speaker 2: the songs if they're performed on screen. And I walked
Speaker 2: him to the to the car and I said, you know, Jim,
Speaker 2: we're not going to surprise you with this. I'll show
Speaker 2: you the songs, you know, as we're working on them,
Speaker 2: because this is a big.
Speaker 4: Deal, first feature.
Speaker 2: He said, oh, Paulie, I don't need to hear them.
Speaker 2: I'll hear him in the studio. It's not Has that
Speaker 2: been your experience in making empower pictures?
Speaker 4: No, a bit laid back, so.
Speaker 2: You know, I ask him, you know, the how do
Speaker 2: we start this, puppy?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 2: Do you start with with Kermit sitting on a log
Speaker 2: in the in the in the swamp.
Speaker 4: What's he doing?
Speaker 2: He's playing a banjo and that kind of sets a
Speaker 2: certain tone. And I think the instruments like tag pianos
Speaker 2: and banjos are great sad song instruments.
Speaker 4: I love the juxtaposition.
Speaker 2: So Kenny and I said down to write, say, we
Speaker 2: wanted to write something like when you Wish upon a Star,
Speaker 2: I mean, when Jimmy Crockett takes always hat in the
Speaker 2: window and things about that. It elevates all of us
Speaker 2: to another level, and we thought Kremit deserved that.
Speaker 4: We did.
Speaker 2: We wrote ourselves into the worst corner. You got to
Speaker 2: think about the opening lines.
Speaker 6: Why are there so many songs about rainbows?
Speaker 4: And what's on the other.
Speaker 6: Side rainbowsis but only illusions.
Speaker 4: And rainbows have nothing to hide. We went out raps.
Speaker 2: We just denied all the magic in rainbows. You know,
Speaker 2: but look at the gift that we were given if
Speaker 2: we go with the next line to it. So we've
Speaker 2: been told, and what we do is Kermit steps away
Speaker 2: from the podium sits down with the audience and is
Speaker 2: a witness to the magic. So we've been told in
Speaker 2: some Tuesday believe it. I know the wrong way to
Speaker 2: see Someday we'll find it. The rainbow connection, the lovers,
Speaker 2: the dreamers and me. The unseen hands on the piano
Speaker 2: and the computer keys when I'm writing are many and
Speaker 2: always welcome, because the best stuff comes out of my
Speaker 2: absolutely unconscious. If I claim it anywhere, I can only
Speaker 2: claim it there.
Speaker 1: What is it about you? What do you think it
Speaker 1: is about you? I mean I want to go full
Speaker 1: blown cliche here and say you drank and drug yourself
Speaker 1: to death because of a hypersensitivity you had. It also
Speaker 1: helped you write these songs. Where do the songs come
Speaker 1: from You've written some of the most I'm one of
Speaker 1: these guys. There's a handful of songs you put on
Speaker 1: and one of them is Evergreen. It's just a pretty
Speaker 1: song that just pulls at you. Now, when did you
Speaker 1: realize you had the aptitude to write these memorable ballads
Speaker 1: for these giant divas? Well?
Speaker 2: You know that was her music. She just called you,
Speaker 2: she called Now. I was being actually fitted for a tuxedo.
Speaker 2: A guy is measuring my end scene when my wife
Speaker 2: walks in and says it's Barbara. Stros wants to talk
Speaker 2: to you. And I'm like, you know, oh my god,
Speaker 2: And of course you know. I mean, I'm like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, it's Barbara. And then I pick up the phone.
Speaker 4: I go, Hi, Barbara, Yeah, of course yeah.
Speaker 2: But she says, you wrote a song called for Helen
Speaker 2: Ready called you and Me against the World. There's a
Speaker 2: scene at the end of His Stars Worn and I'm
Speaker 2: doing his Stars Warn with with with Chris Christofferson. There's
Speaker 2: a song at the end of the Chris's character had
Speaker 2: written and he's dead and I want to and I'm
Speaker 2: lis sing this song and un Me against the World
Speaker 2: is like I'd love something like that. I said, I'm
Speaker 2: I'm here with Kenny Asher, you know, like he's who
Speaker 2: I wrote that song with. I go and I meet
Speaker 2: with her, and she's wanted me to write one song.
Speaker 2: But that's not what I heard. They sent the script
Speaker 2: and I wrote down notes wherever he called. I thought
Speaker 2: what I heard was, I want you to write the
Speaker 2: songs for a stars warn. I mean, I just my
Speaker 2: ego here listens sometimes when I don't, you know. And
Speaker 2: so I go on and I tell her what the
Speaker 2: songs are about, and she and John Peters look at
Speaker 2: me like I'm nuts. Would you give us a moment?
Speaker 2: And then they brought me back and they said, you're
Speaker 2: you know, that's not what we asked you. We asked
Speaker 2: you for one song, but you don't seem to be intimidated.
Speaker 2: I said, absolutely not, And of course I'm sure I was.
Speaker 1: Where did these songs come from? Where did these lyrics
Speaker 1: come from?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, this script, I mean we're talking about,
Speaker 2: you know, the script of the Bible. The two things
Speaker 2: that the songs, especially in.
Speaker 1: The story itself, inspired the song.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that, first of all, the characters
Speaker 2: do and most guys writing songs for most songwriters, pop
Speaker 2: songwriters writing for a film or a stage play. When
Speaker 2: I have a hit, of course, we all want to
Speaker 2: have a hit. But because I come from an acting background,
Speaker 2: I want to advance this story and I want to
Speaker 2: expose something of the inner life of the character I'm
Speaker 2: writing for. So, you know, that was the whole point
Speaker 2: with Kerman is that he has a spiritual wife. You know,
Speaker 2: so I said down and I write. Everybody is like,
Speaker 2: aren't you nervous about writing for Barbara? And I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I'm also but let's take it up a notch.
Speaker 2: I'm writing songs for the guy that putting all my
Speaker 2: cleanest dirty shirt Sunday morning coming down. Me and Bob McGee.
Speaker 4: I love Chris, Chris, I love Christmas. Oh my god,
Speaker 4: didn't you.
Speaker 1: I loved him. Yeah, he was such an egoless guy.
Speaker 1: I'd run into him from time to time and he
Speaker 1: was always such a sweet I mean, there's the guys
Speaker 1: who are the biggest guys, the biggest guys, the most talented,
Speaker 1: they're so kind. Gradford was so kind to me, and
Speaker 1: he was too, Chris, very sweet, no ego.
Speaker 2: My very first concert at a club in New York
Speaker 2: was at the bitter end and I show up there
Speaker 2: first night and there's Chris Read in the front. I've
Speaker 2: never met him, and I described it as trying to
Speaker 2: sing through a guld you know, it's like you know,
Speaker 2: And I sang, and one of the songs I sang
Speaker 2: was called I Never had It So good. And the
Speaker 2: first time we ever really spent a lot of time
Speaker 2: together was A Star is Born, and the opening night
Speaker 2: of Stars Born, so many stuggle microphone on his faces said,
Speaker 2: what are you feeling? You said, a deep sense of
Speaker 2: impending shames.
Speaker 1: Musician, songwriter and actor Paul Williams. If you're enjoying this conversation,
Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow. Here's the
Speaker 1: thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Paul Williams takes us
Speaker 1: behind the scenes of writing the songs for one of
Speaker 1: his favorite projects, A Muppet Christmas Carol. I'm Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing.
Speaker 2: Day after day I must face all of stranger we're
Speaker 2: at don't.
Speaker 6: Below and that Fi roll.
Speaker 1: It's that's the carpenter's performing. Paul Williams. I won't last
Speaker 1: a day without You from their nineteen seventy two album
Speaker 1: A Song for.
Speaker 5: You when There's No Get It Over, Lad rate Bo,
Speaker 5: when My Small the Dream from John True. I can't
Speaker 5: say call the madness the world ask to give, but
Speaker 5: I won't last day without you.
Speaker 1: At age eighty four, Paul Williams is showing no signs
Speaker 1: of slowing down. It was only when reminiscing about his
Speaker 1: storied songwriting career that I was reminded of just how
Speaker 1: long Williams has been a force in the songwriting world.
Speaker 1: From touring with Olivia Newton John to writing for The Carpenter's,
Speaker 1: william has been surrounded by legends since the very beginning.
Speaker 2: I mean I had songs recorded by Ben Crosby and Elvis.
Speaker 2: I mean because it was like the third act of
Speaker 2: their career when I'm just getting started. So it's like
Speaker 2: when I tell somebody that I songs recorded, a song
Speaker 2: recorded by Ben Crosby, it's like, you are old, buddy,
Speaker 2: you are old. It's a yeah, I am old. But
Speaker 2: when you think about when you started your career and
Speaker 2: who was around, I mean, I did something for the
Speaker 2: Friars and walking on stage the first time, and there's
Speaker 2: Greg RePEc and Krook Douglas you know, you know, I
Speaker 2: think Burt Lancaster was even.
Speaker 1: I met all three of those guys, and I almost
Speaker 1: pissed my pants.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: But the thing is that I write both ways. I
Speaker 2: write words and music, and more and more these days
Speaker 2: with Pans Labyrinth. It's Gustavo Sento lie on myself, the
Speaker 2: Phantom of the Paradise, words and music. The big thing
Speaker 2: for me was getting as far the Muppets was concerned,
Speaker 2: was in Fresh New sobriety.
Speaker 4: Nobody's calling me.
Speaker 2: I get sober, and I'm not the hot you know
Speaker 2: kid in Timid anymore I've been. You know, you know
Speaker 2: you're an alcoholic when you misplaced a decade.
Speaker 1: It's like the eighties around here, somewhere.
Speaker 2: It's around you said line before, and you're the only
Speaker 2: person that ever responded you get it. But at any rate,
Speaker 2: the phone rings and it was Brian Hanson, and Brian said,
Speaker 2: I want you to write the songs for the Muppet
Speaker 2: Christmas Curl. You ever seen it. It's one of my
Speaker 2: favorite things I've ever done in my life. And it
Speaker 2: was written with the exact same emotional commitment that I
Speaker 2: have around my sobriety. I literally read the first you know,
Speaker 2: the Dickens novel. I read the script, looked where the
Speaker 2: songs were going to go, left it alone for a while.
Speaker 2: Let my unconscious. I'm not procrastinating, I'm percolating. I am
Speaker 2: leaving my unconscious along with his story and not bugging it.
Speaker 2: And eventually I was at the time I was dating
Speaker 2: keenan Wyn's daughter. I was out of her place in Brentwood,
Speaker 2: and I go out into the park with a Lawrence
Speaker 2: Block novel. I love Lawrence Block's writing, a little tape
Speaker 2: recorder and a pencil, and I say, big, amigo, muse,
Speaker 2: whoever you all are up there, We're going to write
Speaker 2: these songs and let me know when you have an idea.
Speaker 2: And I pick up the Lawrence Block novel and I
Speaker 2: start reading, and about three pages in I put it down.
Speaker 2: I thought, okay. The first song Scrooge, we see a door,
Speaker 2: the door opens, you see his feet and he walks
Speaker 2: by all these little people that seem to get colder
Speaker 2: when he walks by.
Speaker 4: Put a boom bum bum bum boom boom boom, but
Speaker 4: a boom boom. I get the rhythm of it. You
Speaker 4: went a cold wind blows. It chills you, chills you.
Speaker 2: To the boom, to the praze is your heart like
Speaker 2: being alone?
Speaker 4: That's what you guys are good. That's not bad.
Speaker 2: It paints you with indifference like a lady paints with rouge.
Speaker 2: But the worst of the worst, the most hated, and
Speaker 2: Christ is the one that we call Scrooge. Oh there
Speaker 2: goes mister b.
Speaker 4: I wrote that much of it without writing it down,
Speaker 4: but it was.
Speaker 2: It was what we were talking about earlier, about the
Speaker 2: difference between acceptance and surrender and really really totally letting
Speaker 2: go of the moment. I mean, if I'm sitting down
Speaker 2: with Alec Baldwin to talk about God knows what we're
Speaker 2: going to talk about, I could give gone into it.
Speaker 2: I could have wrapped myself around my axle a couple
Speaker 2: of times thinking about that, because I would want this
Speaker 2: to be a really wonderful experience, and I was excited
Speaker 2: about it. But I remember the same club as you,
Speaker 2: and we let things go and we trust in the
Speaker 2: moment and it's exactly what it's supposed to be and
Speaker 2: it's wonderful.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me is that for me, I've
Speaker 1: been overwhelmed overwhelmed and maybe joyous way from where I'm
Speaker 1: at now, which is everything has led me to where
Speaker 1: I am right now. Yeah, I don't want to go
Speaker 1: back to my old life. No, No, I love what
Speaker 1: I'm doing now. I don't want to leave my house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with my kids and then being around them
Speaker 1: and being participatory. You have kids.
Speaker 4: I do have kids, and I was not there for
Speaker 4: my kids.
Speaker 2: When I mean, when you know my son doesn't want
Speaker 2: to have kids, he said, Dad, it's like everybody that
Speaker 2: I know that has kids, they get total I mean,
Speaker 2: at this point, I think he'll change his mind, but
Speaker 2: he says he was a wonderful actorney. He said, I
Speaker 2: also don't want to spend the rest of my life auditioning.
Speaker 2: So he went off and like he became a trainer.
Speaker 2: He was Kamala Harris's private trainer and go flying around
Speaker 2: in planes training you know, studio heads and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Now he's involved in developing plant based foods and at
Speaker 2: any rate, but it's like, you know, Dad, all my
Speaker 2: friends when they have kids, that becomes their entire life.
Speaker 4: I said, I escaped that trap.
Speaker 1: I'll show you have it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said, yeah, you did. My daughter, My amazing daughter.
Speaker 2: Sarah is is a therapist. She works as in the
Speaker 2: office of Victims Advocacy from a major university and and
Speaker 2: she's she's amazing, two beautiful kids. And she said, Dad,
Speaker 2: you were not there. She says, I hear them talking
Speaker 2: about the poly Lama, which is my nickname, and recovery.
Speaker 2: So so yeah, she says, you're the polic She said,
Speaker 2: I get that, you know, like you're anywhere anytime that
Speaker 2: you're going to help them there I alcohol it her
Speaker 2: an addict.
Speaker 4: She said, but when we were kids, you weren't there.
Speaker 4: But I have to tell you something, Dad.
Speaker 2: When she calls me Pops, she says, Pops, you finally
Speaker 2: hid full tilt Papa Bear. And I would bet that
Speaker 2: if there's anybody that I can say that to, you're
Speaker 2: going to understand what that means. How wonderful, what that's
Speaker 2: the best review I ever had in my life.
Speaker 1: Well, now, obviously you've been involved with ask CAP and
Speaker 1: a member as a professional songwriter and so forth, But
Speaker 1: then you become the president of Asking Why and what's
Speaker 1: the task for askcap?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: Make sure we're a membership organization of We have over
Speaker 2: a million members songwriters, composers, lyricists. They've been putting food
Speaker 2: on my table and gas in my car since nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy two. When music is performed, there is a performing
Speaker 2: rights we're royalty there and ASKAVS a pro performing rights organization.
Speaker 2: You know, we get to keep the miracle by giving
Speaker 2: it away in that other world that we're a part of.
Speaker 2: That Love and services is an intensely rewarding I mean,
Speaker 2: it's absolutely it's a contact because you hear about being
Speaker 2: of service, being love and service and all, and it
Speaker 2: sounds like a really wonderful thing to do for.
Speaker 4: The rest of the world.
Speaker 2: But what it does from me and what every I
Speaker 2: wrote a line on the song once it said, every
Speaker 2: act of kindness is a little bit of love behind.
Speaker 4: We left behind.
Speaker 2: My favorite line as far as the philosophy is probably
Speaker 2: you give a little love and it all comes back
Speaker 2: to you. You give a little love, then it all
Speaker 2: comes back. In two thousand and one, I was hal
Speaker 2: David was a great friend and Hell said, I want
Speaker 2: you to run for the board of AZCAP. And I
Speaker 2: had run for the board of ASCAP a couple of
Speaker 2: times and it was not elected. And I mentioned that
Speaker 2: to him. And he said, and thank god, because you know,
Speaker 2: because somebody else was using my body. Then he said,
Speaker 2: but you're a different man now, and I think you
Speaker 2: got to run for ASCAP on the board. I was
Speaker 2: elected to the board in two thousand and one, and eventually,
Speaker 2: you know, became Marylynd's vice chair writer share and in
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine became president chairman. I was raised
Speaker 2: by a hardcore Republican who my dad called my mom,
Speaker 2: that little communist.
Speaker 1: That little comedy, little commie.
Speaker 2: I'm a little comedy. And they lied at least every
Speaker 2: four years. They lied because they'd say, we're going to
Speaker 2: cancel each other. It makes no sense. Let's agree to
Speaker 2: not vote. So they would agree, they would swear, you know,
Speaker 2: they were not going to vote. As soon as the
Speaker 2: polls closed, they would go, I voted, I voted. So
Speaker 2: I was raised in this household. What and And one
Speaker 2: of the things that happened when when I was very
Speaker 2: early on, when I did run for the vard and
Speaker 2: was elected, before I was president, I got to know
Speaker 2: some people that had nothing in common, that they that
Speaker 2: disagree on almost everything in the world, and yet they
Speaker 2: did meaningful work together. I'm talking about like Ted Kennedy
Speaker 2: and Orton Hatch, Who did the Americans with Disabilities Act?
Speaker 4: Who did aide suffer kids?
Speaker 2: Cob And because I began to understand a little bit
Speaker 2: what was going on in a very changing.
Speaker 4: World to ask app, I got excited.
Speaker 2: About, you know, being a hood ornament, about walking in
Speaker 2: the halls and going han Paul Williams and having somebody
Speaker 2: like Doug Collins say to me, you know, you're little
Speaker 2: venus for smoking the bandit.
Speaker 4: I love that movie.
Speaker 2: What can I do for you any minute? And the
Speaker 2: next thing, you know, he and Hawkim Jefferies are working
Speaker 2: on somebody called the Songwriters Equity Act, which is going
Speaker 2: to adjust the rules that we operate under so we
Speaker 2: can get closer to the fair payment for streaming. Never
Speaker 2: made it to the floor, but then we come back.
Speaker 1: Isn't their fair payment for streaming?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 5: Why?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, business is business, you know, and like
Speaker 2: writers are not exactly you know, you know, most heads
Speaker 2: and studios, I don't think very luckily wake up in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night and go.
Speaker 4: God, I gotta take better care of the writers, you know.
Speaker 4: I just you know, honey, I think about that, and.
Speaker 1: Honey, why can't you sleep I just keep thinking about
Speaker 1: the writers.
Speaker 4: Keep thinking about the writers.
Speaker 2: You know, those pesky songwriters or you know, they have kids,
Speaker 2: and I suppose they.
Speaker 4: Should be able to feed them.
Speaker 1: I need to help them.
Speaker 2: But the thing is that there is no music business
Speaker 2: without a song, right without music and the opportunity to
Speaker 2: really work on a daily basis and an amazing staff.
Speaker 2: I'm ascaps one hundred and ten years old, but to
Speaker 2: be able to show up and I have friends on
Speaker 2: both sides of the island, and this is not a
Speaker 2: collaborative environment we're living in right now. You know, it's
Speaker 2: like very Everson. You know, it's a cell phone and
Speaker 2: a foxhold, you know, I mean, Ascat. We have you know, amazing,
Speaker 2: amazing writers, you know, like Beyonce and Paul McCartney and
Speaker 2: the like. But we also have a lot of blue
Speaker 2: collar writers like I am.
Speaker 6: Like I was.
Speaker 2: I've had great success, but I'm a blue collar writer.
Speaker 2: I write songs. You got something you need a song?
Speaker 2: I love sitting down and chasing the words.
Speaker 1: Now, just to harken back a little bit to you
Speaker 1: in the studio with people, I mean, one of the
Speaker 1: people who just put a spell on me, like many people,
Speaker 1: was Karen Carpenter, and of course I was just sickened
Speaker 1: by how she died. And yeah, were you ever in
Speaker 1: the studio with her when she was recording?
Speaker 2: They did not hover while I was writing. I did
Speaker 2: not hover while they were recording. But but I would
Speaker 2: get a phone call. You know the great thing about
Speaker 2: Karen and Richard when we were introduced to them, they
Speaker 2: opened up the door, said, this is Karen and Richard.
Speaker 2: I think you know it was herb Albert and Chuck
Speaker 2: Kay introducing the two of them to Roger and I.
Speaker 4: Nobody knew who we were.
Speaker 2: And Karen and Richard when we loved your Steve Lawrence
Speaker 2: got the Drifter and we loved rowing pony By, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean they knew all these songs we'd written that
Speaker 2: nobody knew. I mean it was like never been on
Speaker 2: the radio, but they were fans. When the phone would
Speaker 2: ring and it would be Karen. I'll be in my
Speaker 2: office with Roger we're writing, and she'd be over in
Speaker 2: the recording. Students they want to hear, and you go
Speaker 2: over there and you hear. I mean rainy days on Mondays.
Speaker 4: Let me be the one.
Speaker 2: I want less to deal with it, you know, it's
Speaker 2: like and when an angel sings your songs, your life changes.
Speaker 1: And in that way that you mentioned about Crosby, when
Speaker 1: you're writing for Crosby. Whatever. It's been a while, I
Speaker 1: think this is still the This is accurate. It's a
Speaker 1: Nick Tosh's book about Dean Martin. He wrote that great
Speaker 1: biography of Dean Martin called Dino, and he says that
Speaker 1: Martin puts a record on the turntable place being Crosby.
Speaker 1: They takes it up and he puts one of his
Speaker 1: arm and they takes that off and he puts Alvis Presley.
Speaker 1: He goes, you see that we're all doing the same
Speaker 1: thing here, right, He's doing me, I'm doing this. We're
Speaker 1: all doing world crooners.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: And the fact is that the great thing about what
Speaker 2: I think we do is you don't have to give
Speaker 2: up your fan cards. So if I'm in a room
Speaker 2: in Quincy Walks and I go, oh my god, there's
Speaker 2: Q and that maybe would you see on the service,
Speaker 2: but inside there's a partment that's going, I'm like, God,
Speaker 2: that's Quincy Jones.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: At this point in my life, it's like that whole thing,
Speaker 2: you know, that whole thing with Scrooge writing Writing for Scrooge.
Speaker 2: One of the great examples of what's turning in my
Speaker 2: life is that I'm asked to write songs about somebody
Speaker 2: who's having a spiritual awakening while I'm having a spiritual.
Speaker 1: Awakening live from the front.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely in the fresh in my chest is gratitude, and
Speaker 2: I'm writing thing. I get up in the morning and
Speaker 2: I say, lead me where you need me.
Speaker 1: Let me just end by saying, do you have any
Speaker 1: idea how talented you are? Did you really own that
Speaker 1: in your life? I've you sat there and go, Man,
Speaker 1: You've done some amazing things, beautiful things. Do you have
Speaker 1: any idea how talented you are? Do you kind of
Speaker 1: enjoy that a bit?
Speaker 2: I wish I could introduce you to all of them.
Speaker 2: I wish I could introduce you to the kid that
Speaker 2: watched a movie about Jane froman called.
Speaker 4: With a Song of My Heart and wound up like
Speaker 4: walking into.
Speaker 2: It my office the first time at ASCAP and on
Speaker 2: the wall next to my thing was the printed sheet
Speaker 2: music from With a Song of My Heart. I was
Speaker 2: the first thing with music in it that I ever loved.
Speaker 2: In that there's some sort of magic going on here.
Speaker 2: I haven't quite figured it out yet, but that seems
Speaker 2: to be one of the things that I am most
Speaker 2: open to. Is right now, it just come to me
Speaker 2: when you need to.
Speaker 4: With this one.
Speaker 2: This may be the last big journey whatever, but I
Speaker 2: think that it's absolutely, absolutely magical, and I don't think
Speaker 2: that we could have planned any of it. And at
Speaker 2: the same token, in early sobriety, I've read the writing
Speaker 2: of Emmett Fox, and he talks about what we dwell on,
Speaker 2: we create that thoughts become things and if you are inspired,
Speaker 2: you know, in a fashion that is loving, you know,
Speaker 2: and to the highest good of all concerned. What you
Speaker 2: dwell on you may experience soon in your life or
Speaker 2: perhaps later. Phantom of the Paradise open to nobody in
Speaker 2: the theater and they closed the can Film Festival with
Speaker 2: it this year. Sometimes a dream doesn't come until you're
Speaker 2: all about just ready to walk away from this life
Speaker 2: and you go, wow, there's still some wow moments left,
Speaker 2: I know, for both of us, and I admire you.
Speaker 4: There's not a word yet for old friends. You just man,
Speaker 4: there you go, you got it.
Speaker 1: Thank you, missus than Can My thanks to musicians, songwriter
Speaker 1: and actor Paul Williams. I'll leave you with a little
Speaker 1: more of the Carpenters performing Paul Williams. I won't last
Speaker 1: a day without you. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing
Speaker 1: that's brought to you by iHeart Radio.
Speaker 6: When there's no getting over that rainbow, when my smalls
Speaker 6: the dreams bond con true, I can't say got madness
Speaker 6: the world as to kid.
Speaker 1: But I won't last day without you.
Speaker 5: When there's no getting ova that rainbow, when my small
Speaker 5: that's the dreams won't come true.
Speaker 6: I can't take on the madness well.
Speaker 1: Last a gift, but I won't last day
Speaker 2: Without you,