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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever

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Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to

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Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another highly requested episode as

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Speaker 1: we break down the psychology of our twenties. So, guys,

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about borderline personality disorder or BPD.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you have seen the term thrown around online, especially recently.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you have seen it used to describe people who

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Speaker 1: others think manipulative or dramatic or even dangerous, without really

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Speaker 1: even knowing the whole story or what BPD actually means.

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Speaker 1: Maybe for some of you listening, you know this is

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Speaker 1: a term that you've encountered more personally. Maybe this is

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Speaker 1: a diagnosis that you've received. Maybe you grew up with

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Speaker 1: a parent who had BBT and didn't really understand it

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Speaker 1: until recently, or maybe you are hearing it for the

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Speaker 1: very first time on this podcast. What I really want

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Speaker 1: to do today is give a proper and real introduction

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Speaker 1: into the world of people with BPD, into what this

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Speaker 1: condition actually means, and probably more importantly, what it doesn't,

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Speaker 1: because I think, as is the case with a lot

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Speaker 1: of mental health disorders or personality disorders, the truth gets

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Speaker 1: rather twisted, and I think it gets made smaller until

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Speaker 1: it becomes a bit of a stereotype. This has definitely

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Speaker 1: happened with borderline personality disorder. At its heart, this is

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Speaker 1: a condition. This is a disorder of emotional regulation and attachment,

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Speaker 1: meaning it massively affects how someone feels, their mood, their relationships,

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Speaker 1: how they see themselves, how they view love, one of

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Speaker 1: our core human experiences. Some of the ways that I've

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Speaker 1: seen people describe it is basically like a lack of identity.

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Speaker 1: You get such intense feelings of anger and nihilism that

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Speaker 1: you feel completely empty, and then the next day or

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Speaker 1: the next minute, you will be filled with such an intense,

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Speaker 1: astatic joy that you feel like the world could never

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Speaker 1: be an evil place again. It's scary kind of not

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Speaker 1: knowing how you feel about the same situation, and therefore

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Speaker 1: kind of not knowing who you are. Others have also

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Speaker 1: described this emotional pendulum by saying It's like having so

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Speaker 1: much emotion that you don't know what to do with it,

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Speaker 1: but also at the same time feeling so empty, and

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Speaker 1: having both of these exist at the same time. You

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Speaker 1: can go from loving a person so deeply you think

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Speaker 1: you know you might die, and then suddenly hating everything

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Speaker 1: about them. It is the disorder. It is a rollercloster disorder.

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Speaker 1: That's really like the best way to put it. And

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Speaker 1: what actually is behind this emotional intensity? Because I think

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Speaker 1: you may know the symptoms, you may know the general

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Speaker 1: character profile of what people assume people with BPD look like,

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Speaker 1: but do we really know the origins. Do we know

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Speaker 1: how this disorder impacts the mind, why it is so

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Speaker 1: linked to attachment. I think a lot of people don't,

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Speaker 1: So I really want to talk about it today. I

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Speaker 1: really want to reduce a little bit of the stigma

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Speaker 1: and just talk about some probably unknown facts and some

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Speaker 1: unknown research about BPD that you might not see presented

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Speaker 1: on TikTok and that you might not see in everyday

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Speaker 1: discussions about this about this condition. As always, I say

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Speaker 1: this every time with these specific episodes that we do

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Speaker 1: on mental health disorders. This is not a diagnostic tool.

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Speaker 1: It's not a diagnostic tool for yourself or to be

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Speaker 1: used for someone else, nor is it a substitute for

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Speaker 1: therapy or real life intervention. We're also going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about some sensitive topics today to deal with suicide,

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Speaker 1: suicidal adation, and self harm. So if that's something that

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Speaker 1: you are sensitive towards, just consider whether this episode is what.

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Speaker 2: You need to hear today. It will be here in

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Speaker 2: a month, it will be here in a year. You

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Speaker 2: can always come back to it when you feel more prepared.

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Speaker 2: I will leave you some links in the description for

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Speaker 2: further resources. So if you or someone you know may

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Speaker 2: be experiencing borderline, if you think they may be experiencing borderline,

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Speaker 2: if this episode has left you distressed, hopefully those help

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Speaker 2: you find the help that you need in your local

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Speaker 2: area and for what you're going through. So I just

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Speaker 2: want to give that little disclaimer before we get into it.

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Speaker 2: It probably will be a more heavy episode than we

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Speaker 2: used to, but take care of yourself and without further ado,

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Speaker 2: let's dive into the psychology of borderline personality disorder. So

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Speaker 2: I want to begin with a little bit of like

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Speaker 2: an imagination exercise to really get across even just a

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Speaker 2: small part of the experience of someone with BPD. This

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Speaker 2: is how people describe it. Imagine for a moment that

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Speaker 2: every emotion that you have felt today or in the

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Speaker 2: last week, you are currently feeling right now, all at

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Speaker 2: the same time. You know, you don't just feel happy,

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Speaker 2: you feel ecstatic joy. You don't just feel sadness, you

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Speaker 2: feel bottomless despair. Every moment of rage, every moment of laughter,

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Speaker 2: every moment of hatred from the past week of your life,

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Speaker 2: your experience seeing it right now, These visceral emotions that

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Speaker 2: I think are only usually available to us for a

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Speaker 2: tiny portion of our lives and of our days. People

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Speaker 2: with BPD they feel them all the time. They feel

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Speaker 2: them much more often in much much higher definition. Now,

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Speaker 2: imagine that these emotions get split into positive and negative.

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Speaker 2: And now instead of just feeling all your emotions at once,

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Speaker 2: you're feeling all or nothing. You're feeling either entirely good

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Speaker 2: and loved and happy or entirely miserable and depressed and angry.

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Speaker 2: And that rapid effective or emotional instability can be triggered

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Speaker 2: by something that many of us would consider really really tiny,

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Speaker 2: really really minuscule. You know, a delayed reply to a

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Speaker 2: text message, a certain facial expression a certain slight or

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Speaker 2: perceive rejection. Not only is the depth of feeling amplified

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Speaker 2: for people with BPD, and there have been studies that

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Speaker 2: have shown that people who have borderline personality disorder may

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Speaker 2: actually have access to a more nuanced emotional scale, but

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Speaker 2: the rate at which these emotions is changing within someone

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Speaker 2: with borderline personality disorder is also accelerated. This is what

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Speaker 2: people often mean when they describe BPD as emotional instability,

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Speaker 2: and in fact that's exactly what some diagnostic manuals call it.

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Speaker 2: This is a really important caveat before we get any

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Speaker 2: further in the episode. If you are listening from somewhere

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Speaker 2: outside of Australia or outside of the US, you might

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Speaker 2: know borderline personality disorder is something entirely different in the UK,

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Speaker 2: in parts of Europe, in parts of Asia, you might

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Speaker 2: hear the term emotionally unstable personality disorder or eupdrather than

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Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder. Now, the reason I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: with BPD for this episode is obviously I am in

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Speaker 2: Australia and if you couldn't tell from my voice, but

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Speaker 2: also it is the term that is used by the

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Speaker 2: DSM which we've spoken about before many times on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: It is the diagnostic statistical manual of basically every single

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Speaker 2: mental disorder known and categorized. So you know, if I

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Speaker 2: was to start saying emotionally unstable personality disorder instead of

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Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder, I think I would kind of slip up.

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Speaker 2: So you may have heard this as a different term,

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Speaker 2: as a different in a different way. They do mean

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Speaker 2: the same things. There is a reason though, that they

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Speaker 2: are labeled differently. The term, or the preface of borderline

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Speaker 2: comes from kind of an older way of thinking. Back

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Speaker 2: in the day, clinicians believe that people with BPD with

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Speaker 2: this condition were on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis.

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Speaker 2: Neurosis is also known as anxiety. Today, most experts agree

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Speaker 2: that that is not actually what's happening. That description is outdated.

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Speaker 2: We don't really use terms like neurosis anymore. Emotional emotionally unstable,

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Speaker 2: I should say, gets closer to the reality.

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Speaker 3: What is really.

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Speaker 2: Happening with this disorder is a nervous system that has

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Speaker 2: been caused or forced to react intensely and unpredictably to

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Speaker 2: emotional triggers. Let's talk about prevalence here for a little bit.

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Speaker 2: BPD is estimated to be prevalent in anywhere between zero

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Speaker 2: point seven to five point eight percent of the general population.

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Speaker 2: Uber specific numbers right there, And I'll tell you why

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Speaker 2: those numbers.

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Speaker 3: Are so specific.

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Speaker 2: They're so specific because that is the minimum and the

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Speaker 2: maximum that researchers believe this condition could be present when

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Speaker 2: considering factors like a lack of diagnosis, especially in certain

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Speaker 2: population groups like men, or in certain countries with underdeveloped

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Speaker 2: mental health systems where there isn't as much I guess

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Speaker 2: like knowledge of this or opportunities for diagnosis. They're also

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Speaker 2: considering if there is an overrepresentation. So sometimes when people

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Speaker 2: try and find these estimates of like how common is

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Speaker 2: a disorder in the world, they like to go as

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Speaker 2: small as possible and as big as possible. So when

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Speaker 2: you hear five point eight percent, I don't want you

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Speaker 2: to think that anytime you go into work, anytime you're

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Speaker 2: walking down the street, one in every twenty people have

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Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder. Again, it's just like the max of

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Speaker 2: all maxes. Now let's talk about more deeply. Let's talk

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Speaker 2: about what this disorder actually contains. What are the hallmark symptoms?

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Speaker 2: Of BPD. So, according to the DSM five, if you

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Speaker 2: want to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a couple

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Speaker 2: of things have to be true. Firstly, you have to

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Speaker 2: experience a certain number of the following symptoms. An intense

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Speaker 2: fear of abandonment, unstable relationships and unstable and stable self image,

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Speaker 2: so feeling amazing one minute terrible the next, impulsivity, recurrent

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Speaker 2: suicidal behavior or self harm, emotional instability, rapid intense mood changes,

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Speaker 2: chronic feelings of emptiness, intense anger inappropriate to the situation,

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Speaker 2: and at the extreme, stress related paranoia or dissociation. I

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Speaker 2: think that as of today, as of right now, as

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Speaker 2: I'm recording this, you need to have five or more

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Speaker 2: of these symptoms present over a significant period of time

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Speaker 2: and across various contexts. So you can't just feel emptiness, impulsivity,

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Speaker 2: and intense rage when you're around your family and your

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Speaker 2: family only, or you can't just experience that when you're

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Speaker 2: at the job that you hate. It has to be

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Speaker 2: something that unfortunately isn't purely environmental or context based, but

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Speaker 2: which sits with you throughout all social, physical, emotional contexts.

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Speaker 2: That is kind of the hurdle that you have to

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Speaker 2: jump over to be diagnosed with BPD. We're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about a couple of the other hurdles later on.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry, we'll get to it. So clearly, when we

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Speaker 2: talk about instability, this isn't just having a few mood

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Speaker 2: swings it These swings are full body. Their affect identity relationships.

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Speaker 2: They affect our relationship with ourself, even sometimes how we

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Speaker 2: see reality. One of the most devastating aspects of BPD

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Speaker 2: is the way that it heightens risk for self harm

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Speaker 2: and suicide. And this is kind of a known, very

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Speaker 2: sad secret of the community of people who in're and

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Speaker 2: suffer from this condition. I saw this statistic the other

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Speaker 2: day that as many as seventy percent I believe of

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Speaker 2: those with BPD will attempt suicide at some point in

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Speaker 2: their lifetime. That makes borderline personality disorder one, if not

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Speaker 2: the most high risk psychiatric diagnosis when it comes to mortality.

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Speaker 2: I would assume it would be second only to anorexia.

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Speaker 2: That statistic isn't necessarily meant to shock you, although it

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Speaker 2: definitely shocked me. Seventy percent is a ridiculously high number,

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Speaker 2: but it's meant to just highlight how intense and painful

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Speaker 2: this disorder can be for those who are living with it,

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Speaker 2: whereby the only response many of the people who are

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Speaker 2: enduring this condition believe they can have the only appropriate

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Speaker 2: response is a drastic, devastating, and permanent one. Another key

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Speaker 2: complexity to do with BPD is that it actually rarely

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Speaker 2: exists alone. We talked about those hurdles you need to

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Speaker 2: get across. This is the second biggest hurdle. Getting the

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Speaker 2: diagnosis is actually quite difficult because for someone with BPD,

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Speaker 2: it is highly likely, in fact, it is more probable

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Speaker 2: than not, that they will also be experiencing another co

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Speaker 2: occurring mental health condition. The research in this is a

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Speaker 2: little inconsistent, but in terms of the rate of co

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Speaker 2: occurrence with other mental health conditions, anywhere between sixty three

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Speaker 2: to ninety five percent of people with boderline personality disorder

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Speaker 2: will also have another diagnosis at the time of their diagnosis. Now,

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Speaker 2: that number, the sixty three to ninety five percent that

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Speaker 2: was found in a very well known twenty nineteen Swedish

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Speaker 2: population study which looked at almost two million people with BPD,

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Speaker 2: So I think that we can say that number is

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Speaker 2: fairly accurate. Two million people I think that is the

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Speaker 2: largest sample size of any study we have ever mentioned

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Speaker 2: on the podcast before. Ever, some of the most common

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Speaker 2: co occurring conditions are the ones that are obviously most

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Speaker 2: common in society in general, so depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder,

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Speaker 2: but then also PTSD, complex PTSD CPTSD IS it's called

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Speaker 2: for short substance use disorders and eating disorders. This one,

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Speaker 2: especially eating disorders and BPD are incredibly common, especially bolimia

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Speaker 2: and binge eating disorder. Now this overlap, obviously can make

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Speaker 2: things quite tricky. Imagine going into a doctor's office and

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Speaker 2: you know, really all your symptoms are coming from a

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Speaker 2: large tumor, but instead of treating the tumor, they start

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Speaker 2: treating gas on your leg, and they start treating you

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Speaker 2: for a vitamin deficiency, and they start treating they send

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Speaker 2: you to the dentist to get like dental treatment, and

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Speaker 2: all along you have this big tumor that all of

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Speaker 2: this stuff is coming from. Like that's how some people

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Speaker 2: describe BPD. It's like you're treating you go onto I

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Speaker 2: don't know the medical system, specifically the mental health system,

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Speaker 2: and you have this big thing that is really bothering you,

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Speaker 2: that you can't figure out, and as in order to

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Speaker 2: get a final diagnosis, all these other little things get

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Speaker 2: treated or get labeled first, when the big thing kind

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Speaker 2: of goes undetected. I've heard so many stories of this

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Speaker 2: from listeners of people who, you know, they had not

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Speaker 2: even heard of the term BPD until they were in

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Speaker 2: an impatient treatment for an eating disorder five years after

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Speaker 2: they first developed said eating disorder, or they've been treated

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Speaker 2: for depression and anxiety for years before suddenly someone sit

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Speaker 2: down and says, you might have this, and it's like

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Speaker 2: the key that unlocks the door. I think that's similar

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Speaker 2: for late stage diagnosis for ADHD and for autism. Often

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Speaker 2: people don't get the label that they need and that

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Speaker 2: they would would really give them an answer until a

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Speaker 2: little bit later in life. So where does BPD actually

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Speaker 2: come from? Psychologists researchers. They will often turn to the

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Speaker 2: biosocial model to explain the origins of BPD. Now, the

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Speaker 2: biosocial model was originally proposed by Marshall Lyman in the nineties,

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Speaker 2: I think, and she also is the creator of Dialectical

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Speaker 2: behavior Therapy DBT, which you have probably heard about on

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Speaker 2: the podcast before. We're going to circle back to that

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Speaker 2: in a second. But according to this biosocial model, BPD

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Speaker 2: develops from a combination of a couple of things, almost

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Speaker 2: like a perfect storm. It is not a singular thing

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Speaker 2: that creates it. Firstly, there must be a biological vulnerability,

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Speaker 2: meaning a person is born naturally born with a heightened

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Speaker 2: emotional sensitivity, a certain specific kind of temperament, or heightened

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Speaker 2: emotional dysregulation. An individual basically is seen in this case

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Speaker 2: to have had a predisposition for either hyper arousal or

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Speaker 2: hyper reactivity, so their nervous system reacts more strongly to

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Speaker 2: emotional stimuli and takes longer to return to a baseline

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Speaker 2: because of their genetic blueprint. It has nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with environment. Yet there's a lot of different theories and

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Speaker 2: pieces of research looking at the specific biological basis behind

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Speaker 2: this hyper arousal or hyper reactivity. And what a lot

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Speaker 2: of people typically come back to is this one structure

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Speaker 2: in our brain, one of the smallest structures, which is

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Speaker 2: the amygdala. Now, the amygdala sits right in the center

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Speaker 2: of what we call our old brain. It is responsible

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Speaker 2: for detecting threats and for triggering an emotional response like

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Speaker 2: fear or anger, which will in turn also trigger a

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Speaker 2: physical response. Now in people with BPD, when they do

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Speaker 2: fMRI scans of these people's brains, what they tend to

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Speaker 2: find is that the amig deala is hyperactive, meaning that

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Speaker 2: when a rather ubiquitous or small emotionally experienced occurs, it

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Speaker 2: reacts in a disproportionate way compared to a so called

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Speaker 2: and I hate saying this, a so called normal brain

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Speaker 2: or a control brain. The brain's alarm system in this

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Speaker 2: case goes off the slightest sign of rejection or criticism

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Speaker 2: because it cannot distinguish between something that requires a two

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Speaker 2: percent reaction and a two hundred percent reaction. That is

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Speaker 2: part of the intensity behind this disorder. Now, on the

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Speaker 2: other side, we have the prefrontal cortex. Now, the prefrontal

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Speaker 2: cortex and the amigdala often get talked about together a

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Speaker 2: lot because they are like, how do I describe it?

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Speaker 2: They're like on two sides of the balance beam. The

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Speaker 2: prefrontal cortext she is logic, she is regulation. She is

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Speaker 2: the thing that provides reason, executive functioning and helps calmas down. Now,

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Speaker 2: if the amygdala shows hind reactivity, the frontal lobe shows

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Speaker 2: reduced activity or reduced connectivity in people with BPD. Basically

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Speaker 2: there are less roads, less fast pathways running around the

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Speaker 2: frontal lobes, so messages are a little bit slower. So

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Speaker 2: you've got a brain where the emotional accelerator is extra

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Speaker 2: sensitive and the braking system is less responsive. Slash doesn't

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Speaker 2: really work. That's a hard mind to control for anybody.

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Speaker 2: Of course, this does have a genetic component. If you

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Speaker 2: have a parent, if you have a sibling, if you

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Speaker 2: have an immediate family member with BPD, the chances of

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Speaker 2: you then developing that disorder sits around the forty to

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Speaker 2: sixty percent mark. It's about forty to sixty percent heritable. Now,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to kind of hard to detach

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Speaker 2: whether it's because you've been raised in an environment where

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Speaker 2: someone has a disorder that causes them to be quite

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Speaker 2: polarizing it and reactive, or whether it is purely genetic.

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Speaker 2: The best way we can figure it out is through

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Speaker 2: twin studies, and it does seem to be that there

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Speaker 2: is both a genetic and an environmental context here. The

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Speaker 2: genetic aspect of having a family member or having a

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Speaker 2: certain genome and whatever it is that has been primed

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Speaker 2: for BPD is that that vulnerability can actually lay completely

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Speaker 2: dormant for somebody's whole life or for many many years

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Speaker 2: until something triggers it. And this is where we get

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Speaker 2: to talk about the second part of the biosocial model,

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Speaker 2: which is the role of an invalidating environment, meaning that

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who go into develop BPD from

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Speaker 2: a young age probably existed in a world that didn't

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Speaker 2: teach them how to manage their emotions, didn't give them

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Speaker 2: a safe space to manage their emotions, and who probably

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Speaker 2: experienced something very severe and extreme during their childhood that

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Speaker 2: they couldn't grasp, they couldn't control, they weren't supported to

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Speaker 2: understand as a child, and so from that point on,

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Speaker 2: all of their emotions were at level one hundred. You

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Speaker 2: guys know, my guilty secret is that if I am

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Speaker 2: researching an episode where I want to know more about

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Speaker 2: lived experience, I love going into Reddit and reading through

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Speaker 2: all like the I guess, like the support boards, and

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Speaker 2: in one of the ones for BPD, I found a

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Speaker 2: lot of people talking about this experience of before and after,

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Speaker 2: like a moment where they felt their brain, this new brain,

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Speaker 2: their BPD brain like switch on. And this is exactly

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about there's a biological vulnerability, a light

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Speaker 2: switch that has suddenly switched on by an environmental experience.

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Speaker 2: Now what might that environmental experience be, Well, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of options, a lot of really actually terrible options.

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Speaker 2: But it's often trauma, either subtle or overt, that adds

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Speaker 2: to these effects, and that creates the personality disorder or

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Speaker 2: personality type we now call borderline or emotionally unstable. A

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen study published in the Journal for Personality and

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Speaker 2: Mental Health looked at a sample of adolescents from thirteen

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Speaker 2: to seventeen who were at an inpatient unit as a

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Speaker 2: result of their BPD, and then of these people who

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Speaker 2: of these children who had BPD, they also matched them

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Speaker 2: with a sample of people of the same age who

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Speaker 2: didn't have BPD, and then a further two hundred and

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Speaker 2: ninety adult in patients with BPD, And they just got

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Speaker 2: every single group, the teenagers with BPD, the teenagers without BPD,

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Speaker 2: and the adults with BPD, to answer a few questions

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Speaker 2: about their childhood, specifically experiences of abuse or neglect. What

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Speaker 2: the study found was that adolescents with BPD described significantly

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Speaker 2: more abusive experiences than their psychologically healthy peers, but often

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Speaker 2: they did so in quite a detached way. Oh you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't really know why I'm like this, But then

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Speaker 2: they would go on to explain something that was just

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Speaker 2: like absolutely psychologically crushing. Even more interesting is that that

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Speaker 2: recall of those events, and I guess that rate of

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Speaker 2: trauma and emotional or childhood neglect was very similar in

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Speaker 2: the adult group as well, And a lot of these

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Speaker 2: people found that the impact of their childhood adversity was

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Speaker 2: almost more pronounced in adulthood, perhaps due to the prolonged

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Speaker 2: effects of early trauma and the fact that the inability

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Speaker 2: to regulate themselves through those experiences had meant that the

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Speaker 2: impact of those experiences had just been allowed to compound trauma,

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Speaker 2: especially when it's relational trauma, to do with how your

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Speaker 2: caregivers treated you, to do with maybe a death in

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Speaker 2: the family, to do with social rejection or social pain

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Speaker 2: or grief. It also heightens a fear of abandonment, and

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Speaker 2: it makes trust in relationships a lot more difficult, and

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Speaker 2: it re enforces that hyperreactivity to emotional stress, which is

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Speaker 2: another core element of BPD. Now, trauma doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be this huge, major thing that you can point to

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Speaker 2: and reflect on and say, this is where it began.

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Speaker 2: For a lot of people with BPD, they actually say,

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Speaker 2: you know, my childhood was pretty good. They don't recount

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Speaker 2: having an abusive childhood. But as we said before, when

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Speaker 2: you ask them to describe it, it's you know, parents

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Speaker 2: who are physically present, who put food on the table,

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Speaker 2: but are deeply dismissive, parents who themselves had BPD, and

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Speaker 2: because that's the only caregiving and parental love the child

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Speaker 2: or the person has ever known that felt normal to them,

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Speaker 2: or it's just not being valued. It's environments that just

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Speaker 2: didn't match the child's sensitivity, where they felt like they

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Speaker 2: were too much or too dramatic, where they felt like

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Speaker 2: every time they said, don't abandon me, someone would or

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00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: someone would think that it was funny to play into

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Speaker 2: these insecurities. Really, what we are pointing to here is

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Speaker 2: how trauma interacts with biological vulnerability, which then interacts with

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Speaker 2: emotional invalidation or environmental invalidation. That is the trifecta that

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Speaker 2: creates BPD, and I would say ninety nine percent of cases,

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Speaker 2: and it's what shapes emotional regulation, self concept and of

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Speaker 2: course our attachment pattern. Now, with that in mind, we

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Speaker 2: are going to take a short break, but when we return,

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Speaker 2: let's really talk about how this impacts our relationships, because

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Speaker 2: I think this is the space where people are most

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Speaker 2: curious about BPD or often first introduced to BPD.

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Speaker 3: So stay with us.

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Speaker 2: Something really critical and key with BPD, as I mentioned before,

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Speaker 2: is the role of relationships. They carry so much of

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00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,719
Speaker 2: the disorder's weight, and a lot of the times, I

408
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: think it is where BPD becomes most visible in everyday life,

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Speaker 2: especially to others. If you have watched Girl Interrupted, Fatal Attraction,

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Speaker 2: Silver Lightnings Playbook, these are like pop culture references that

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Speaker 2: I actually think are pretty good at explaining or showing

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Speaker 2: the intensity of this experience of people. I personally I

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Speaker 2: love Silver Lightning's Playbook. It is one of my all

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Speaker 2: time favorite movies. But if you've seen it, you will

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00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: feel or you will notice that the movie has this

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00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: weird way of making you feel stressed and making you

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00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: feel on edge, especially from the main character, like his

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00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: interactions with people, so they become so volatile at times,

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00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,719
Speaker 2: and you can feel that through the movie. And I

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Speaker 2: apparently see I don't have BPD, but I've been told

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00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: it is a very good depiction of how this feels

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Speaker 2: inside the mind of someone with BPD, Like things are rising,

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Speaker 2: things are like just spiraling, and it's all joy the

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Speaker 2: next one moment, and it's all disappointment or anger or

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Speaker 2: hate the next. Psychologists often frame this through the lens

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Speaker 2: of obviously attachment theory. Many people with BPD show what's

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00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: called an anxious, preoccupied, or disorganized attachment style. That means

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00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: that they desperately crave closeness and connection, but at the

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Speaker 2: same time that intimacy, because it is something they desire

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00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: so much, feels deeply threatening. When closeness for them has

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00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: so often been paired with pain, rejection, or inconsistency. Love

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00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: becomes both the thing they need the most and the

433
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: thing they fe the most. They fear the loss of

434
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: that love. They fear that someone is just inevitably going

435
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: to leave them, and they fight very very hard internally

436
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: and externally to prevent that from happening. This plays out

437
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: in what we sometimes call a push pull dynamic. On

438
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: one hand, they're craving this bond, they're craving intimacy, they

439
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: are pulling it closer, and on the other hand, they're

440
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 2: so fearful of being hurt that they push away, and

441
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: that's what the withdrawal and the anger looks like. There's

442
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: a very famous phrase used to describe this, which is

443
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: I hate you, Please don't leave me. You've probably heard

444
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: of it.

445
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 3: It is actually the.

446
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: Name of one of the most well known books on BPD,

447
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: and it's exactly as it sounds. I hate you, please

448
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: don't leave me. I actually love you. What we sometimes

449
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: realize is that love for them feels so intense that

450
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: sometimes it just gets confused with all other intense emotions.

451
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: Or you start to anticipate the pain of someone leaving

452
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: before it happens, and so you're reacting, or you are

453
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: acting out this future imagination that you have of how

454
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: it's going to feel when this all comes to an end.

455
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: Relationships really do feel like, as they described, a pendulum

456
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: swimming between extremes of idealizing one's partner and then devaluing them.

457
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: At one moment, you know your partner is perfect. They're

458
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 2: the best thing that's ever happened to you. They are

459
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: gorgeous and beautiful and kind and everything you've ever wanted.

460
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 2: And the next, after some perceived slight or disappointment, that

461
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 2: same partner might be seen as cruel or untrustworthy, and

462
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: in that moment, it feels like you never want to

463
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: see them again. It's ruined. It's not that the person

464
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: with BPD wants to see things in this black and

465
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: white way. It's that their emotions are so overwhelming that

466
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to hold both the good and the bad

467
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: in one mind at the same time. This has a name.

468
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: It's known as splitting, and it's basically the inability to

469
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: hold opposing thoughts, feelings, or beliefs all at once. Obviously,

470
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: no one is ever perfect, you know. Even if someone

471
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: is literally our soulmate and the love of our life

472
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: and we've managed to find them, things do go wrong.

473
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: But for someone with BPD, often to survive the internal

474
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: emotional volatility, they do find it easier to make outright

475
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: categorizations like this person is evil or this person is

476
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: an angel. And when someone sits in the middle, sits

477
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: in the gray area, they cannot just be a normal

478
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: person with flaws, with inconsistencies, with normal human reactions. That's

479
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: what makes everyday relational conflict, disagreements, disappointments so difficult for

480
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: someone with this disorder. I read a few reports of

481
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: what this felt like for people with BPD, and what

482
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: some people describe is this inability to detach the bad

483
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: feeling about the situation from the person in the situation. Obviously,

484
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: having arguments in a relationship is uncomfortable, but also there's

485
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: this whole rupture and repair idea of you do need

486
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: to sometimes have friction and conflict in order to build

487
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: the muscle and build the volume of your relationship and

488
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: to move forward, and so it's kind of just a

489
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: normal part of things. Even if it feels bad, now

490
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: you can move forward. Someone with BPD sees that situation

491
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: and is like, well, that's just all the evidence I

492
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: need that this person is going to treat me poorly

493
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: in the future, that our relationship is doomed, and so

494
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: of course they react accordingly. They react defensively or from

495
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: a place of pain. You know, you have this fight

496
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: with a friend, right, It's heated, it's rough, it's hard,

497
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: and if you have BPD, sometimes you might feel like afterwards, Okay,

498
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: well that friendship is over. I guess like, that's dumb.

499
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: That person is terrible person. They never want to see

500
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: me again. So I'll be the first one and never

501
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: want to see them again first, if that makes sense,

502
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: And then three days later, you know, they'll text you

503
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: wanting to grab a coffee or wanting to hang out

504
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: and talk it through. And it's this confusion of like,

505
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: what do you mean people can be nuanced? What do

506
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: you mean this wasn't the end? You know, I'd already

507
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 2: emotionally prepared to cut you off.

508
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 3: What is this?

509
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: Why doesn't everyone think the same way as me? One

510
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 2: account I read that was really profound was this person

511
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 2: who again was on Reddit and was like genuinely seemed

512
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: confused that someone who she had had an argument with

513
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: wanted to repair the relationship. She was like, what do

514
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: you mean? Surely this is all the evidence we need

515
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: and that we require to know that this friendship isn't

516
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: going to work out. Conflict is part of a relationship,

517
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: but if you have this emotional instability and these previous

518
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: experiences of being hurt or being let down, well, of

519
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 2: course it's going to be a lot harder to tolerate.

520
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: People who are actually the romantic partners of people with

521
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: BPD often report really struggling sometimes with this cycle of

522
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: closeness and conflict. Feeling deeply loved one moment and painfully

523
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: rejected the next There was a twenty fourteen study that

524
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: looked at this specifically the partners of people with BPD,

525
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: and what they found was that a lot of these

526
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: romantic partners reported an increased sense of hurt in the

527
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: aftermath of arguments and an increased sense of caregiver burnout

528
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: or caregiving anxiety. When you feel deeply personally responsible for

529
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: someone else's emotions all of the time and that person

530
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: is also, you know, a little bit difficult or impossible

531
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: to predict, that takes its toll. It takes its toll

532
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: on the other person, It takes its toll on the

533
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: structure of the relationship as a whole. Parents of young

534
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: adults or teenagers with BPD also report feeling There was

535
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: another study, I think in twenty twenty one that looked

536
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: at them as the main relationship in the life of

537
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: someone with BPD, and again, it's this weird it's this

538
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: weird difficulty of feeling helpless and guilty but also angry,

539
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: wanting to set boundaries, but also wanting to let this

540
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 2: person be in control because that might be the best

541
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: way to manage the situation. As a result of this,

542
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: which again, a lot of these people, actually all of them.

543
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 2: They cannot control this amplified emotional reaction, but as a

544
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: result of it, there is a huge link between BPD

545
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: and loneliness because of how individuals with this condition relate

546
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: and interact with others. It is really common for people

547
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: with BPD to self isolate as the only appropriate reaction

548
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: to these behavioral patterns that number one, they don't want,

549
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: but number two, they find themselves being unable to control.

550
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: They don't actually want to hurt people, They don't actually

551
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: want to have this competitive relational pattern of loving someone intensely,

552
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: trusting someone intensely, and then one thing going wrong and

553
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: feeling like the world is splitting open, and so because

554
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: they find it difficult to manage the emotional consequences of relationships,

555
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: they just avoid relationships. In general. Research shows that not

556
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: only are people with BPD more likely to be lonely

557
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: compared to the general population, but their social networks are

558
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: often much smaller, much less diverse, also less satisfying. And

559
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: maybe we could even trace this back to what we

560
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: were talking about before with the suicidal ideation and behavior.

561
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: Loneliness is of course going to be another factor, not

562
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: only can you not control your emotional state. You also

563
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 2: don't get that same support socially that maybe you really

564
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: need and that other people do receive. You know, I

565
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: just I can't imagine how isolating that would feel. To

566
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: want love and to want to be around people so badly,

567
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: and to really love the depth and the intensity and

568
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: beauty of relationships, but also know that there's a part

569
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: of you that just can't handle it, and just deciding

570
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: to opt out, like that's a crazy sacrifice and a

571
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 2: crazy decision that people have to make. And this is

572
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: the thing for people with BPD. There is this stigma

573
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: that their capacity to love is kind of broken, that

574
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: they can't do it normally. That's not true. It's simply

575
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: tethered to fear in a way that I guess a

576
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 2: lot of us don't really understand unless, of course, we're

577
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: in it, unless we're experiencing it. Let's talk some more

578
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: about the stigma around BPD, since we've kind of gotten

579
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: started on that now, because I do think it's one

580
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 2: of the most stigmatized mental health diagnoses out there. Part

581
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: of the stigma comes from a misunderstanding about the behavior's

582
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: associated with BPD, particularly the intention of these behaviors. Outwardly,

583
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: someone might appear to be doing things to get attention,

584
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: to be manipulative, to be dramatic. A partner might you

585
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: know this person might frantically call you or have these

586
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: very intense emotional outbursts, and you might think that that's

587
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: a control tactic that I hate you, don't leave me

588
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: experience it. You know, it might not be manipulation. It

589
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: actually rarely is manipulation in a calculated sense. It is

590
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: just the only panicked way that someone with VPD can

591
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 2: respond to a situation. They do not have the same

592
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 2: emotional and interpersonal regulation skills that the again average person has,

593
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 2: so they are not sitting there and thinking, well, if

594
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 2: I react this way, I'm going to get a certain response.

595
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: And even if they are, it's not because they want

596
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: to necessarily hurt someone. They're just doing anything to get

597
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: back to a place of emotional safety within the relationship.

598
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: It's a survival strategy that push pull that I want

599
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: to let you in, but I don't know how to.

600
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 2: I don't want to be disappointed. It does cause them

601
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: to do things that howardly might seem really strange, but

602
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: for them make perfect sense or don't make sense, but

603
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: they feel like they.

604
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 3: Have no control.

605
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: Of course, I do think cultural representations only make matters worse.

606
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: We've talked about some good representations. A lot of the

607
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: stuff we see these days, or the characterizations of people

608
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: with BPD online are less educational, less informative, And you know,

609
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 2: when you see social media or TV or movies frequently

610
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: portray people with BPD as toxic x's or dangerous individuals,

611
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: it reinforces this fear and this sense that they don't

612
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: have empathy, when that's totally not what's going on here.

613
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: I will say caveat here. In some ways, I do

614
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: understand sometimes why people want to talk about it that way,

615
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: because that's their perception and that's their truth. Their truth

616
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: was that they were in a relationship with someone who

617
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: had this condition, and they experience things that really hurt them,

618
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: and they experience behaviors that maybe left them feeling very

619
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: unstable and could be interpreted as dangerous. Two things can

620
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: be true here. Someone can be experiencing personality disorder they

621
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: really don't have a grasp of, and that's might not

622
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: be entirely their fault, and someone else can equally be

623
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: suffering from that same condition. On the other end, on

624
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: the kind of sharp pointing end of the behaviors that

625
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: the person with BPD is using to protect themselves. So

626
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: again it's complicated, it's nuanced. I think it's hard to

627
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: talk about because you want to validate someone's experience of

628
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: what is again a diagnosable mental health disorder, but you

629
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: also want to understand that, yeah, people do get hurt

630
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: by these behaviors, whether inttentionally or not. The thing is

631
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 2: is that people with BPD are not sociopaths, they're not narcissists.

632
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: They don't have the same lack of empathy as you

633
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: would maybe expect from someone who is deliberately manipulative. Maybe

634
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: they have comeobidity, but it's not a significant level of them.

635
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 2: So they get the shame, They understand it, They understand

636
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: their omratic behaviors. They don't want to be like this,

637
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: and that's really hard because that self criticism and these

638
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: misconceptions actually make them feel more isolated and hopeless, less

639
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 2: likely to get help. Another thing we need to talk about.

640
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: Another layer of this actually comes from gendered assumptions around PPD.

641
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: So something you may not know is that historically BPD

642
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: has been diagnosed significantly more often in women. Some estimate said, ye,

643
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: it's about seventy five percent of diagnosed cases are female.

644
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: And if we look back, this has basically reinforced this

645
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 2: cultural stereotype that emotional intensity, volatility, relational sensitivity is inherently feminine,

646
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: or that women who express strong emotions are somehow hysterical,

647
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: overly dramatic borderline. These stereotypes are really dangerous because they

648
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: don't just influence some random person on the streets judgment

649
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: like they shape clinical perception as well. And we know

650
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: this because of again those diagnosis rates. A woman who

651
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: is emotional anxious, having issues in their relationship, prone to

652
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: self harm, they may be more quickly labeled as borderline,

653
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: whilst a man with the same underlying issues and patterns

654
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: might be seen differently. And that's probably what's resulting in

655
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: men being underdiagnosed even when they meet the criteria for BPD.

656
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: Why partly because the same way that autism diagnosis has

657
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: been set up to catch more young boys due to

658
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: their socialization, a BPD diagnosis has been set up to

659
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: catch more women because of how they have been socialized.

660
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: Men tend to externalize distress in ways that society and

661
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: clinicians would interpret differently. Instead of expressing sadness or fear,

662
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: they might display anger or impulsivity or risk taking behaviors

663
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 2: or substance use. These expressions can lead clinicians to assign

664
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: very different diagnoses. As we talked about before, a lot

665
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: of people with BPD get a lot of different labels

666
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: before they find this final one that really does describe them.

667
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 2: So for men, it might be antisocial personality disorder, anger

668
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: management issues, conduct disorders, and that means that the treatment

669
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: they receive only addresses the reactions or the outbursts rather

670
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: than the cause. The result is, you know what we

671
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: know as a gendered blind spot. Women are overrepresented in statistics,

672
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: so that means that we have a very limited way

673
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: of seeing this disorder that has been influenced by gender,

674
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 2: and it means that the disorder has often been stigmatized

675
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: for just meaning that someone overreacts or is labeled as

676
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: manipulative not to be trusted, whilst men are underrecognized and

677
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: they go without support entirely. Here's the thing that we

678
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: have not mentioned once, which now I'm realizing I probably

679
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: should have mentioned it earlier.

680
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: But BPD is treatable.

681
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: For a long time, clinicians believed it wasn't. Patients with

682
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 2: BPD were seen as too difficult, too resistant, to uncooperative.

683
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: We now know recovery or what they call remission from

684
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: this disorder is not only possible, it is incredibly common,

685
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: more so than what you are thinking incredibly common. So

686
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: we are going to take a short break now, but

687
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: when we return, I want to talk about that. I

688
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: want to reveal why therapy for BPD is actually becoming

689
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: incredibly effective.

690
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: So stay with us.

691
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: So let me throw some statistics that you hear from

692
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 2: the National Institute of Health from twenty twelve. These results

693
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 2: have been reaffirmed later on, I think in twenty twenty

694
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: four they did a follow up study. They found that

695
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: this hasn't changed a whole lot. In the study, they

696
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 2: wanted to see if someone with BPD was put into

697
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: an appropriate treatment environment, how would they do and could

698
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: they quote unquote recover. What they found was that sixty

699
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: percent of borderline patients will achieve a recovery from borderline

700
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: personality disorder if they go through treatment. That number maybe

701
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 2: even higher. There was one such intervention where there was

702
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: a ninety nine percent remission rate, showing that of almost

703
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 2: all of the mental health disorders out there, this one

704
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: is actually one that responds to treatment very well. And

705
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: how they kind of categorize remission is a lack of

706
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: symptoms that create distress or cause problems socially, psychologically or physically.

707
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: A lot of people will find that the older they get,

708
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: the more symptoms will and can ease through getting therapy

709
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: and through having good therapeutic approaches to what they're experiencing.

710
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: The gold standard here is dialectical behavior therapy or DBT,

711
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: which we mentioned earlier. I promised that we would come

712
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: back to it, and here we are. What makes DBT

713
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: so effective is that it was designed specifically for what

714
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 2: you might call an under controlled personality type. Now, before

715
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: this therapy, people really couldn't figure out what to do

716
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: with BPD patients. And then this amazing woman came along

717
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: and she invented this, and what she really realized was

718
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 2: that people whose emotions are intense, whose emotions are quick

719
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 2: to flare, hard to regulate, who are kind of maybe

720
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: a little bit more socially abrasive at times, they need

721
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: a different approach to therapy compared to the traditional methods

722
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 2: of doing it, And so the key thing about DBT

723
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: is that it meets people with BPD where they're at.

724
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't try and force them to control or suppress

725
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 2: their emotions or try to over explain them or reappraise

726
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 2: them the way that maybe other therapies do. It actually

727
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 2: asks for people to live within it and with the

728
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: emotions in a way that people talk about as being

729
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: highly highly effective. So it's built around four key skills

730
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 2: or pillars. The first is mindfulness. You might hear the

731
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: word mindfulness and be like, oh my God, can we

732
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 2: not talk about that anymore? And I get it, Like

733
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 2: I feel like mindfulness is this thing that gets thrown

734
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: at any mental health problem and it's like, well, have

735
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 2: you tried mindfulness? Have you tried exercise? Have you tried

736
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: this or that? And it's like, okay, I don't think

737
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: sitting in a room and thinking about my thoughts for

738
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: an hour or so it's going to help me. But really,

739
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: what it's about is being grounded in the present moment,

740
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: and that's something that you can control. And it's also

741
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: about observing feelings without judgment. This is a very hard

742
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: skill to develop. A lot of the time we will

743
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: feel a feeling and we either put it in the

744
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 2: good or the bad category. Now, if you're someone who

745
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 2: has these very polarized emotions, as is the case with BPD,

746
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 2: where that's an even more sharper contrast. Being able to

747
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 2: just respect an emotion and not force your way or

748
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: push against it or try and force your way through

749
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: it is incredibly helpful. Then there is distress tolerance, so

750
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: supporting the individual so that they can survive a crisis

751
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 2: without worsening a situation. Learning how to cope with pain

752
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: without acting impulsively. Then comes emotional regulation, identifying patterns, learning

753
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 2: strategies to reduce our vulnerability to extreme emotional swings. There's

754
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: this one strategy I heard of that's like the zoo

755
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: strategy so or the aquarium strategy. I can't remember what

756
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: it's called, either the aquarium or the zoo strategy. And

757
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: it's like watching your emotions like they're behind a glass

758
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: window pane, and you can stay there for as long

759
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: as you want, and you can watch how your emotions

760
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 2: want you to react or where they're moving in your body,

761
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 2: and then you can just walk away when you're done observing,

762
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: and when you get bored of that emotion and finally

763
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: there's interpersonal effectiveness, learning how to communicate needs, clearly, set boundaries,

764
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: maintain healthy relationships, not lash out, not immediately assume abandonment.

765
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: That's something that a lot of people with bb with

766
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 2: DBT have not always Sorry with BPD, Oh my god,

767
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: so many bees t's and d's and peace, that's something

768
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: that people with BPD haven't always been taught. This is

769
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 2: a really really powerful therapy. I feel like I've said

770
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: that a million times. One of its unique strengths is

771
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: the emphasis on validation. So it really acknowledges the reality

772
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: of someone's emotional pain. And it's not sitting there and

773
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 2: being like it's not asking someone to change overnight. It's

774
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 2: not asking someone to not have these feelings. It's just

775
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 2: asking for them to interact with them in a different way,

776
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: in a way that's actually maybe not going to work

777
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: for everyone, but for people with BPD, it really does.

778
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: Another approach, another evidence based approach, I should say, is

779
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: structured clinical management or SCM. This was developed in the UK.

780
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 2: As you can imagine, DBT incredibly time intensive, incredibly expensive,

781
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: and basically they wanted a more generalist alternative to such

782
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 2: a therapy. Research has shown SCM is that effective alternative.

783
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 2: At its core, this is about structure, consistency, and support.

784
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: As we've heard today, many people with BPD experience chaos

785
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: in their relationships and in their daily lives. So having

786
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 2: a reliable professional who provides clear expectations, who is there

787
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 2: as a consistent contact, who can literally just provide you

788
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: with practical guidance can be profoundly stabilizing. It's like having

789
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: a body. It offers really regular, reliable support, psycho education,

790
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 2: and basically someone who is like a sounding board when

791
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,240
Speaker 2: your emotions are making your thoughts very loud, or making

792
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: it making you think that a certain reaction is appropriate

793
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: when it just might not be. Really, what this provides

794
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: is predictability for people whose early environments were unpredictable or invalidating.

795
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: Simply having like a clinician or a trusted individual who

796
00:52:55,719 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: consistently listens, who provides guidance, who doesn't withdraw raw in

797
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 2: moments of crisis can be just like the can be it,

798
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: that can be the thing that you need. It's incredibly affirming.

799
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 2: Although like the skills, these kinds of treatments teach are

800
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: so valuable, it's really about how they can start to

801
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: create that consistency for themselves and how they can basically

802
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 2: learn in a non avoidant way that someone leaving them,

803
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: someone being mad at them, a relationship not working is

804
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 2: not the end of the world. They can trust in

805
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 2: themselves to survive again. The prognosis is really really good.

806
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 2: And that's what makes it hard to hear about the

807
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: high rate of distress and the high suicide rates and

808
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: the high self harm rates to do with BPD because

809
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,720
Speaker 2: it is so misunderstood, because people don't get a label

810
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: because they perhaps don't know this information. There is this

811
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: whole suffering silence. If I talk about it, someone's going

812
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 2: to immediately characterize me, is this kind of person? And

813
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 2: this is just something I have to get over kind

814
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 2: of mentality. And I hope this episode is kind of

815
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 2: lessened that for someone a little bit so they understand

816
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 2: that actually, with the right people, there won't be stigma.

817
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: And it's really like building a skill. You put the

818
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 2: time in, you put the effort in, you can experience

819
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 2: a different way of relating to people that you really

820
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 2: want to love and be close to, and of relating

821
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: to yourself. What looks like chaos for a lot of

822
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: people in these situations is usually just pain. What looks

823
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: like manipulation is usually just desperation, and what looks like

824
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 2: hopelessness is in reality like something that you can help

825
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 2: yourself with. Like there are so many stories of change

826
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 2: and transformation in this space. I will say, if you

827
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: are a romantic partner of someone with BPD, maybe that's

828
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 2: why you're listening. And I'm sure you can understand all this.

829
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: You can have empathy and compassion for this person and

830
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: still realize you may not want to be with them.

831
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: I've kind of circled this matter cautiously throughout this episode.

832
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: Abandonment is such a big issue for people with BPD,

833
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: But something I've always believed is that no one is

834
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 2: owned a relationship just because of what they're enduring or

835
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: going through. And you aren't obligated to stay with someone

836
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 2: when things are dysfunctional and when they haven't perhaps gotten

837
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: the help that they need yet and it is available

838
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 2: to them, even if they have limited control over this reaction.

839
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you have to be there to

840
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 2: bear the brunt of it. You know. This is what

841
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 2: we define as a personality disorder, after all, And regardless

842
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: of all the really positive statistics we have about remission.

843
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 2: Maybe at the end of the day, your personalities just

844
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 2: don't align and the condition is just part of that.

845
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 2: They might just need to find their person the same

846
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 2: way that we all do. So if you are also

847
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: listening to this, thinking, how do I manage this incredibly

848
00:55:55,400 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: emotionally complex relationship with someone who's afraid of being but

849
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: I don't want to be.

850
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: With them anymore?

851
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 2: Approach it with a lot of kindness. See if you

852
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 2: can maybe get them some help. Maybe this isn't the

853
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 2: right time, Maybe they do need to get treatment and

854
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: know that the reaction they have is not always a

855
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 2: reflection of you, and that you are allowed to make

856
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: the best choice in your situation. You know, this is

857
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 2: a very complicated condition that's confusing even for those who

858
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 2: have been experiencing it and living it for decades. So

859
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 2: I just want to say, there are still a lot

860
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: of things we don't understand about this. Perhaps there will

861
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 2: one day be a whole manual and guidebook for navigating

862
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: this kind of like maze that is operating in the

863
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: mind of everybody, but specifically the maze in the mind

864
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: of people with BPD. But until then, I think it's

865
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: just good to have empathy for the things that we

866
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 2: don't understand and the things that we don't know, and

867
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: empathy for you if you're experiencing BPD, for living in

868
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 2: a brain that it's probably very different to everyone else's,

869
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 2: and I can imagine it's kind of confusing sometimes to

870
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: really want to be able to respond or behave in

871
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: the way that others are and just not knowing how.

872
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: So I'm sending you a lot of love. I hope

873
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 2: that this has been informative. I hope that you've gotten

874
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 2: a good introduction, yeah, and that things change for you

875
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 2: if you want them to, and that you find some

876
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 2: kind of hope at the at the end of the tunnel.

877
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: Thank you again for listening. If you have made it

878
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: this far, leave a little emoji down below.

879
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 3: What am I gonna do? My emoji?

880
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 2: Of guys, I always get this far and and I forget,

881
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 2: maybe like a little star I don't know. I'm feeling

882
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: a star emoji today, so I know that you've made

883
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 2: it this far. I want to thank our research at

884
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 2: Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode. As a reminder,

885
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: there will be resources down below, I highly advise that

886
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: you go and check them. Out. If this episode resonated

887
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: with you, and if you want to learn more, or

888
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 2: if you just need some additional help, make sure you're

889
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 2: following us on Instagram a's that psychology podcast. Almost forgot

890
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: my own Instagram handle That's embarrassing, and that you are

891
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: following along on Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio title wherever you are listening,

892
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 2: and give us a five star review if you're related

893
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 2: or felt seen by this episode. Until next time, stay safe,

894
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 2: be kind, be gentle with yourself, and we will talk

895
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 2: very very soon