1 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast. 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at 3 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Numbled On, a higher across asset reporter with Bloomberg, 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: and this week on the show. Well, for years, many 5 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: traditional financial companies were a bit skeptical and cautious when 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: it came to cryptocurrencies. But that's all changed, and in 7 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: the last few years some of the most important trading 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: firms have started to make big investments in the space, 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: and not just a trade bitcoin and ether and all 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: the other digital assets, but to actually play a role 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: in building out the infrastructure that connects these global decentralized 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: markets together. We're gonna talk to the president of a 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: trading firm that has taken a big plunge in a 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: crypto about what they're up to and where they see 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: the industry going next. But filled down before we bring 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: him in, I've I've got a bit of a bone 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: to pick with you in that I was going through 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: the brackets on the Bloomberg terminal. You know, if listeners 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: aren't familiar, you can enter it an n C A 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: A Brackett right on the terminal. You did not enter 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: a bracket. I'm very just. I didn't I know nothing 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: about march madness. That's what thinks. That's exactly You're exactly 23 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: the type of person who wins these things. Though. Then 24 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: you know the rest of us, Yeah, we think we're 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of geniuses. We pick all the upsets for you. 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: You you know, you could look at it like, oh, 27 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: they gave me the answers. I'll take one over sixteen 28 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: and two over fifteen. Although my track record was with 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: this type of stuff is so bad, as you know, 30 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 1: and let the listeners know, I asked you who should 31 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: I be betting on, and you never gave me any answers, 32 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: So I have nobody to cheer for. I did tell 33 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: you about on the Delaware Blue Hens, and that was 34 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: probably not It was not a good call, not a 35 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: good call at all. I should have said St. Peter's 36 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: New Jersey City the truth, right, So yeah, from our 37 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: native New Jersey. Yeah. Anyway, I want to bring in 38 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: our guest. His name is Dave Olson. He's the president 39 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: and chief investment officer of Jump Trading Group. Dave, Welcome 40 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: to the show, and thanks so much for joining us. 41 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for Donna, Hi Mike, Thanks for having me. Thanks 42 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,839 Speaker 1: Dave and Dave. I can only imagine if you put 43 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: some of that brain power at Jump Trading to work 44 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: on the brackets. I'm just throwing that out there. You know, 45 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: Jump Trading in bracketology. You guys, you guys could be 46 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: uh could be on this something there. But but why 47 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: do you talk to us um a little bit? Uh, 48 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: let the listeners know about your background. I know you 49 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: came from a long career at JP Morgan, uh to jump. 50 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: Jump was a uh computerized trading firm in derivatives and 51 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 1: and a lot of asset classes. You've sort of made 52 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: that migration into crypto in recent years. Talk us through 53 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: sort of the history of your career and how Jump 54 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: got involved in crypto. Yeah, sure, so quite right. I 55 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: was at JP Morgan for about twenty five years. I 56 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: had a chance over that span to work in a 57 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: lot of different areas of the bank. The bank changed 58 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: a lot. I think it was about employees when I 59 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: joined in the corporate fans inning program, and I think 60 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: when I left it was something like two hundred and 61 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: seventy thousands. So uh, nothing like the merger and getting 62 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: into the retail business to amp those numbers up UM. 63 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: It was a terrific place to be right in the 64 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: middle of a lot of the inner workings of finance 65 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: UH and the global developments, you know. The derivatives market 66 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: grew a lot while I was there. I was involved 67 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: in those markets quite a bit. I did some fintech 68 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: venture capital work around one point, oh we didn't call 69 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: it that back then, but the dot com days UH. 70 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: And then the last several years of my career I 71 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: spent running the clearing businesses and got to know a 72 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: lot of quantitative trading firms UH, and got to know 73 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: more about Jump. And it was a natural progression to 74 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: to be able to work for a company like Jump 75 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: that I had seen handle a lot of alto markets, 76 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: a lot of tough decisions, and really got to know him, 77 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: at least from the outside before I had an interest 78 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: in in coming over. It was actually shortly after I 79 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: started at at Jump that we we started to scale 80 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: into crypto. I joined Jump in starting in around we 81 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: had been incubating an experiment with a group of students 82 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: at University of Illinois. They had come to work in 83 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: a laboratory that we had set up in conjunction with 84 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: the computer science and computer engineering departments there, and crypto 85 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: was really a frontier back then. UH there were no 86 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: organized exchanges to speak of. There are a lot of 87 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: homegrown solutions to liquidity in the crypto markets. We were 88 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: interested in it, and it fit a really nice spot 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: to work on with this group of students and interns 90 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: where we wouldn't expose a lot of intellectual property of 91 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: the company. There wasn't much to trade in crypto. Bitcoin 92 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: was still under a thousand dollars, Ether had not traded 93 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: even one coin yet pretty early days, and as an exercise, 94 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: UH several of several of the Jump Labs UH students 95 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: and employees set about the work of building a really 96 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: high performance infrastructure almost as a proving ground to trade 97 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: crypto for the first time. It's never something you would 98 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: have invested in as a business plan kind of matter. 99 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: There wasn't enough volume, the risks were too high, their 100 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: whole litany of problems in solving the post trade and 101 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: movement of FIAT. But as an exercise it was great, 102 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: and it was just very fortunate timing that at the 103 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: end of it we had really a world class infrastructure 104 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: ready to go as soon as bitcoin started to lift off, 105 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: in terms of both price action and volumes. So that 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: was really the genesis of how we got involved. It's 107 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: so interesting to hear this backstory because I actually wanted 108 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: you to talk about what building that crypto infrastructure actually 109 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: looks like, what it entails, and then correct me if 110 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm wrong. But the Crypto division, the Jump Crypto division, 111 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: you you announced that officially last year, right, and so 112 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: how what do your goals look like in terms of 113 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: how large of a player you want to be in 114 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: the crypto space? Yeah? Um, yeah, so a bunch of 115 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: that question. The early days of connectivity were wild and wooly. Uh. 116 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: I think one of the coolest thing about being a 117 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: participant in the crypto markets is we're interacting with really bright, 118 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: really talented people, many of whom have had no exposure 119 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: to finance whatsoever. Uh. They might be uh cryptographers, they 120 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: might be a couple of guys in Slovenia that that 121 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: ran a computer parts repair store that we're mining bitcoin 122 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: after hours on the rigs that people had brought into 123 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: fixed and all of them had come at similar problems 124 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: with a totally fresh perspective. Um, And you know that 125 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: leads to a lot of idiosyncrasies in how a matching 126 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: engine works, or where the where the where the data 127 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: center is hosted, or how the cloud is used. So 128 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: we really had our first opportunity to do um you know, 129 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: sophisticated quantitative trading in the cloud because of cryptouh. So 130 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: that was, you know, and now that is starting to 131 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: lead into a lot of other areas of finance, and um, 132 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, we'll see where it goes from here. That 133 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: was a big topic at the Futures Industry Association annual 134 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: meetings which took place last week. Um So crypto is 135 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: really on the on the front edge of that because 136 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: there's not not a lot of baggage with how things 137 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: have always worked or what the cookie cutter approaches to 138 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: building something in finance. That's a very very fun that's 139 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: a very fun part of it. So you're you're right. 140 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: Crypto did start, as you know, combination of a skunkworks 141 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: h stroke experiment. Also, I think we were careful in 142 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: the early years to not tip our hand to the 143 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: market that we were investing as much as we were 144 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: in crypto, it was still relatively green field. There was 145 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: still a lot of first mover advantage out there, so 146 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: We were very tight lipped externally for sure. Even internally, 147 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: we didn't promote or publicized too much, and we had 148 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: a pretty small team working on things for the first 149 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: couple of years. But as it started to scale, so 150 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: seen when it hit ten thousand in bitcoin for the 151 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: first time, and through the crypto winter that ensued in 152 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: and then kind of the grind up from there. We've 153 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: been constantly investing, We've been adding talent. We've become a 154 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: pretty big part of the marketplace, not only trading that's 155 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: where our heritage is, but we've become a pretty big 156 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: venture capital investor in the infrastructure that we see as 157 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: necessary to have crypto and DeFi flourish, and really, starting 158 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, a lot of our 159 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: focus has moved to building, so we've hired a lot 160 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: of blockchain engineering talent. We acquired a firm called Service One, 161 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 1: we believe to be the best blockchain engineers in the 162 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: world we were able to acquire, and we've been adding 163 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: to that team. So all told, we're well over a 164 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: hundred people in Jump Crypto. It is its own business unit. 165 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: It's part of Jump Trading Group, but run really is 166 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: a separate enterprise and continues to scale pretty substantially. I 167 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: find it fascinating that, uh, you know, the origins date 168 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: back to the University of Illinois. You know, it used 169 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: to be back in the day you try to hire 170 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: the smartest coming out of undergrads are coming out of 171 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: grad school. Now you go right to the school. It's 172 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: all that I think. I'm gonna go back to college, 173 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: maybe get get another degree, I don't know, get a 174 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: fun internship. Good to get get that internship, get on 175 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: the ground floor. But Dave, I want to talk about 176 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: some of the the infrastructure projects. UM. Obviously, one big 177 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: one that you guys are heavily involved in, UH is 178 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: what's known as Wormhole. And U me if I'm butchering 179 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: the explanation of this, but the way I understand it, 180 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: it's basically a bridge that lets you take assets trading 181 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: on the Salona blockchain and carry them over the bridge, 182 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: which is Wormhole, onto the Ethereum blockchain. UM. So you know, 183 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: so that there's sort of connectivity between the blue two blockchains. UM. Obviously, 184 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: something uh what was it a month or two ago, 185 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: went went horribly wrong. Someone was able to figure out 186 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: UH software exploit on the Bridge and basically take what 187 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: was it three million worth of ether uh and and 188 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: sort of disappear. Walk us through exactly what happened there 189 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: and sort of how Jump was involved not only with 190 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: the development of Wormhole, but but this whole escapade and 191 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: how you guys came sort of the rescue of the 192 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: project at the end. Yeah, um, the you're right. I 193 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: think your description of Wormhole being across Chain Bridge is 194 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: dead on. I think the you know, the way I 195 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: think of it in UH. An analogy that I think 196 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 1: of when describing Wormhole is, let's say I've got a 197 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: PayPal account and I go out to dinner with some friends, 198 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: and if they're all using PayPal, were on kind of 199 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: the same quote layer one payment system, and it's very 200 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: easy for us to settle the bill or page other 201 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: for the cab fare or whatever's going on. But if 202 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: one of us uses the cash app or Venmo or 203 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: or some other payment mechanism and I don't, there's no 204 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: way that I can communicate at all. They're just completely 205 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: separate ecosystems. They're closed off from one another. You can't 206 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: pay twenty bucks from from PayPal into UH into the 207 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: cash app. UH. You have to either have them download 208 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: the app, which is a big pain, or you know, 209 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: heaven forbid. By the way, that's usually that's usually me 210 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: when I'm out to dinner with a bigger up, I'm like, oh, sorry, guys, 211 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: I got the app. None of you guys, use I'll 212 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: get the next one. All right, It's gonna cutch up 213 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: with them to sign the check on the dashboard of 214 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: the car. I'll be a parking lot, uh doing that. Um, 215 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: And you know, for a long time, that's how that's 216 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: how the blockchain world worked. If you had ether on 217 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: the Ethereum network and and you were using that layer 218 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: one blockchain, you had this very vibrant community. There were 219 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: smart contracts written their n f T platforms. You could 220 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: do a lot with your ether, But if you wanted 221 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: to spend that ether, or get yourself involved in a project, 222 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: or buy an n f T on a different chain, 223 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: you you either had to convert downstream into FIAT and 224 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 1: then reload a different wallet and have different providers. It 225 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: was very clunky. So wormhole Um isn't really linked to 226 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: any one specific chain. So the only thing I would 227 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: take issue with with your description is, uh, they're now 228 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: eight layer ones it's totally interoperable. We expect that number 229 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: to grow well into double digits by the end of 230 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: the year. There's a new layer one being added every 231 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: couple of weeks or so. Uh. And that if if 232 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: you've got Ether and you wanted to move that Ether 233 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: to the Oasis network or Terra or Salana or Finance 234 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: smart Chain or a bunch of different chains out there, Uh, 235 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: You've got the ability to do that, uh pretty easily. 236 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: And important to note it's not just token movement. Uh. 237 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: So this could be n f T s, this could 238 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: be messages, it could be data. Really, anything that can 239 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: exist on any of those blockchains can be ported over 240 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: through wormhole to another blockchain. UM. Importantly you don't. It's 241 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: not a hub and spoke model. So let's say that 242 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: you moved Ether over to Salana and then you wanted 243 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: to move that wrapped ethereum over to Tara. You don't 244 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: have to go back all the way through all the 245 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: hops back to the home chain and then start back up. 246 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: You can just move straight from one to the other. 247 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: So a lot of functionality there. Uh. We first got involved, 248 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: actually I've already mentioned Service one. UM. They were they 249 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: were the group writing the first lines of code to 250 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: develop Wormhole, and it's one of the elements that attracted 251 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: us to that team. Um and the community started to 252 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: rally around the idea of across chain bridge. We're very 253 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: enthusiastic about it, so we became UH sponsors and backers 254 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: and and road code and tried to evangelize its use 255 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: to the best we could. It is a decentralized project, 256 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: so you know, it's it's out there and is a 257 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: community effort. But we've had we've had a pretty high 258 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: share of some of the early work that went into 259 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: the thinking. UH. One of the reasons why we've got 260 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: such conviction in a cross chain world is there's a 261 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: lot of creativity happening with layer ones right now. Some 262 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: are really well designed for one attribute, let's say, extremely 263 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: high throughput, very high performance. You know that's Salana right 264 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: now is leading the layer one pack in terms of 265 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: transactions per second to end low gas fees. That's very 266 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: well suited for some areas that start to bleed into 267 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: what looks more like traditional finance. And then you've got 268 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: the Ethereum blockchain, which has got this incredible community of 269 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: passionate developers that are writing smart contracts and UH creating 270 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: n f T marketplaces and things like that. And our 271 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: firmly held belief is that the future is a multi 272 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: layer one future, and that the comparative advantage of the 273 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: different attributes of layer ones is something that should be 274 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: celebrated and that we would expect to continue to scale. 275 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: So you know, right now, if you're an artist and 276 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: you wanted to sell n f T s, UH Ethereum 277 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: is where there is the most liquidity. It's where the 278 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: biggest community for n f T s exists. But it's 279 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: also one of the most expensive places to mint a 280 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: new series of n f T s. So now you 281 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: don't have to force fit yourself into doing everything on 282 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: one layer one. If you wanted to mint on a 283 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: much more efficient home layer one blockchain, you could pay 284 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: much lower gas fees, importantly to a lot of artists 285 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: and certainly to me. You can use a much lower 286 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: energy footprint, and then you've minted a thousand n f 287 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: T s. If you wanted to move a dozen over 288 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: the of those, your most rare copies over into open sea, 289 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: you can use wormhole to do that, and you kind 290 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: of get the best of both worlds. So that's some 291 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: background on on what wormhole is and why we're so 292 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: excited about it and uh and quite right. Uh. In February, 293 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: we had uh, uh just so happened that about two 294 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: dozen of us at Jump Crypto were down in Miami. 295 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: We were in some rented office space. We were spending 296 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: time together going through our plans for the year, doing 297 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: some deep dive on research, debating white papers, you know, 298 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: figure out where we wanted to build next. Uh. And 299 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: in the middle of the afternoon, one of our one 300 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: of our team members who who watches a lot of 301 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: things that are happening on the blockchain like a hawk, 302 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: noticed that there started to become a discrepancy between the 303 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: amount of wrapped eth so uh, the amount of ethereum 304 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: that should have had a one for one deposit locked 305 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: in a smart contract on the ethereum blockchain started to 306 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: those numbers didn't didn't match anymore. So he pressed the 307 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: proverbial big red button. We all happened to be uh 308 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: in a tiny, tiny little room together, uh, and we 309 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: we immediately identified that there was an issue. You know, 310 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: The way I've described to people is it's it's basically 311 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: a high tech check forgery where the attacker or attackers 312 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: were able to spoof the destination chain. In this case, 313 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: that was Salana into believing that ether had been locked 314 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: up on the Ethereum blockchain, so they were able to 315 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: kind of print out of thin air some new rappee. 316 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: Once you've got wrapped ether, you can do a couple 317 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: of things. You can go back kind of to the 318 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: cashier stand and say, okay, I've got this rapteef, I'd 319 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: like to turn it in for the original please. Uh. 320 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: And because of the way the system worked, that uh 321 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: other ether that had been locked previously was made available 322 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: to that person tendering the rap teeth. And you can 323 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: buy stuff with wrap teeth on different chains. So a 324 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: little bit of a little bit happened if the second one, 325 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: a lot happened to the first one, and all told, 326 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: about a hundred two ether was compromised. Our first step 327 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: was to try to bring the system down. UM. One 328 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: of the one of the trade offs of decentralized world is, 329 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, you can't kick the plug out of the 330 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: wall like you if it was all your own. Uh. 331 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: You have to you have to put the word out 332 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: into the community. UM. The way wormhole works, they're nineteen 333 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: guardians that attest to the transactions, and they're all independent. 334 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: So we had to get the word out in the 335 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: Wormhole community that there was there was an attack and 336 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: we we needed to bring the system down. UM. That 337 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: probably took twenty minutes. I would guess, Uh, there was 338 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: a tense twenty minutes because obviously the vulnerability still existed 339 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: and and you know, there was more value locked beyond 340 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: what had been compromised. UM. And then the next step was, Okay, 341 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: what happened and is it over? Like? Have we have 342 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: we effectively taken everything down? Do we know the totality 343 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: of the problem? And then what what caused it? What 344 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: was the was the root issue that was able to 345 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: be exploited? And can we fix it in a way 346 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: that's totally robust. In parallel, we had to make the determination, okay, 347 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: what do we do about the stolen stuff? UM? You know? 348 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: Do we you know? We we don't. We don't have 349 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: any Jump Trading group. Jump Crypto doesn't have any contractual responsibilities. 350 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: We're not liable for anything. Um. But we made an 351 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: elective decision, uh to swiftly make all the participants whole, uh, 352 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: and to go out and acquire a D thousand eight 353 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: ourselves and then inject that into the wormhole smart contract 354 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: to replenish what the attacker had had stolen. And let 355 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: me just put in a sight if for listeners not 356 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: familiar with the price of eight, you're talking about three 357 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: thousand dollars roughly a token at that time, right something, 358 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: so talking about what it was a round million dollars 359 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: that we have to do that. Yeah, I feel like 360 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: when someone pulls off a caper like this in crypto, 361 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: eventually they get caught. It might not be right away, 362 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: but you know, was that in your think, in everyone's 363 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: mind at all? Like, you know what, we can make 364 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: everyone hole in this project, but we're gonna find whoever 365 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: did this eventually and and recoup at least some of that. 366 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: You know, is that part of the thinking that that 367 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: motivates you to to sort of come to the rescue 368 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: for the project like this, Uh, you know it. You 369 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: don't know what is going to happen at the end 370 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: of all the paths that you chase down. All we 371 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: know is we're going to chase down every path. We're 372 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: working in very close consultation with government resources, with private resources. 373 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: There is a lot of firepower that is expert at 374 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: tracking down criminals like this, and we are in this 375 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: fight permanently, UM, So this is not something that we 376 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: will become distracted by next month or next year or 377 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: or whenever this is Ah, this is a permanent condition. 378 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: But I would say that didn't really factor into the 379 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: question as to what our action should be in the 380 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 1: moment um. That was really motivated by a belief that 381 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: not doing so would have been an enormous setback to 382 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: a cross chain world in crypto and defight in general. Uh. 383 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: Quite quite logically, it may have been the end of 384 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: Wormhole entirely. Uh, And that that kind of a setback 385 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: at this moment when such exciting foundational technology is being 386 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: laid down, UM, would have been a terrible outcome, not 387 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: just for the marketplace. And you know, we're community minded 388 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: for sure, but this wasn't totally an act of altruism. 389 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: You know, this was an investment and what we believe 390 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: is going to be an incredibly robust future for uh, 391 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of other projects that we're working on, 392 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: investments that we've made, coins that we hold, just the 393 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: the the entire scaling of a lot of DeFi capabilities Uh, 394 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: we think wormhole is going to be central too. So 395 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: whether or not we ever recoup the money or what 396 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: we do with the ether if we get it back, 397 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: wasn't really top of mind in in thinking about it. 398 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: It was more about this, this event could have blown 399 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: up the your all your future ambitions and goals. I 400 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,239 Speaker 1: guess yeah, and and look you it. You don't know 401 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: where these coins are. You don't know you know, you 402 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: don't know who the attacker is, what type of attacker 403 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: it is. Um, you know it. Uh, they're just too 404 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: too many uncertainties, especially as it's unfolding, to try to 405 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: handicap you know, chance of success, of of trying to 406 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: recoup it. You you already started answering part of my 407 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: next question, which is I wanted to ask you who 408 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: exactly you're working with in terms of recovering the funds, 409 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: and then how close are you to recovering them. Well, 410 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: you are quite a distance away from recovering the funds 411 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: until you have them. So there's um uh, there's really 412 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: two states of the world. Uh. The the the agencies 413 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: of the US government are uh both incredibly engaged and 414 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: incredibly well resourced and expert. Um. This is thankfully, not 415 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: something that we've had a lot of repetitions doing. So 416 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: this is a little bit of a learning experience for 417 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: for everybody a jump that has been involved in the 418 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: in the pursuit of what's going on. But I've been 419 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: terribly impressed by the resources within the US government to 420 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: uh to to go after these type of criminals. Uh, 421 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: it's obviously a big number. Um. It's again it comes 422 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: at a time when when hacking is at the top 423 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: of the consciousness of of government and private industry. Um. 424 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: It also happened to occur uh just a few days 425 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: before the bitfin x successful capture was announced. So that 426 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: timing was not only great because it made us feel 427 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: good like, Okay, there's a there's precedent for success here, 428 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: but I think also is motivating for the government agencies 429 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: that are involved in a hunt that this is this 430 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: is not a waste of time. You know, it's not 431 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: a it's not necessarily a cold case that you're never 432 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: going to go anywhere with. And I also think that 433 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: that case showed just how hard it is to move 434 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: illicit funds around if they're in crypto form. You know, 435 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: the bitfin x attackers, you know, it was reported that 436 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: they were resorting to trying to spend was a four 437 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: and a half billion dollars one dollars at a time 438 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: with Walmart gift cards. You know, like that is not 439 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: a scaled solution. Um. And you know, the the great 440 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: thing about crypto is it's a permanent, immutable movement by 441 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: movement record that is available for everyone to see. The 442 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: ether that was stolen in the wormhole attack has made 443 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: exactly one move into the wallet that it was moved into. 444 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: It has not moved since. Um, everybody is watching that wallet. Uh, 445 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: every every big exchange and stable coin provider was fantastic 446 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: in their response. That was something that happened minutes after 447 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: we knew that the money had moved. Was we called 448 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: in blacklisted those wallet addresses. Everyone just dropped everything and 449 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: blacklisted him except for one, uh, one pretty big provider who, um, 450 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: for understandable reasons, I suppose said, listen, we need a 451 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: we need either a court order or a police report 452 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: to blacklist Waltz. We can't just have somebody call up 453 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: and you know, blacklist of wallet. And so we looked 454 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: at each other and one of the one of the 455 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: folks in the room, a pretty senior person to jump. 456 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: Uh walked out of the office building into Miami and 457 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: found the closest police precinct to where we were and 458 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: walked in middle of the middle of the afternoon, walked 459 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: into the police precinct and said. The officer behind the 460 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: desk looks up and says, uh, yeah, And he says, yeah, 461 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: I'd like to report the theft. And the officer nods 462 00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: and he goes cell phone, he goes, no wrapped either, 463 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: like the worst day. This coff is seen behind the desk, 464 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: and it's fantastic. You know, we got the Maybe this 465 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: is better for Chicago to paperwork, but you know, God 466 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: bless him. We got the police report and uh went 467 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: on our way. So a lot of a lot of 468 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: weird stuff like that. That's amazing story. Well, Dave, you 469 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: have my word that it wasn't me. Okay, I promised you. 470 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: I wouldn't know how to even begin to do this. 471 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: I don't know about vil Donna. She is mysteriously in 472 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: a condo in Florida. Now all of a sudden like that, 473 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: you want to you want to give him up talking 474 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: later sen million Dollar Valley. Wow, that's amazing. So all 475 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: I was just just glued to that wallet forevermore. I guess, 476 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: uh be fascinating to see how that turns out, Dave. 477 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about another one of sort of 478 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: the infrastructure projects that you guys are very heavily involved with, 479 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: and that's pith Um. And for listeners who aren't familiar, 480 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: pith is basically UM. I kind of think of it 481 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: as the SIP, you know, the stock market SIP, which 482 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: is basically just the data feed of all the trades 483 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: that have happened that's available to all market participants UM. 484 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: And obviously with crypto it's much more complicated than that. 485 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: There's everything from derivatives to crypto trades to to I 486 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: guess equity and currency trades on it UM. But I 487 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: wanted to tell us a little bit about that. But 488 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: I'm also curious how UM. Both Wormhole and pith to 489 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: me have some common motivation, and that's that UM you're 490 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: trying to sort of solve problems UM that seemed to 491 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 1: originate with with ethereum, and the fact that it can 492 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: kind of be sort of slow, you know, it's it's 493 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: obviously the newer blockchain after Bitcoin, but compared to some 494 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: of the more faster ones Um that have been developed 495 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: since then. It's got this very dedicated community, as you 496 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: pointed out of the developers building projects on top of it. 497 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: It got this core audience. But I can't help but 498 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: wonder if you know, having to develop these you know, 499 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: type of solutions for Ethereum problems, if if in your 500 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: mind that sort of bodes poorly for the long term 501 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: future of Ethereum. You know, is it you know, to 502 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: to use sort of a tortured analogies that kind of 503 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: putting you know, a new radiator and slick tires on 504 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: an old super room when when really you know you're 505 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: waiting for that tesla to to arrive um. You know, 506 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: is there a Salana or a more advanced blockchain that 507 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: that really eventually we'll be able to do everything on 508 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: you can do it on Ethereum just better, and that 509 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: you know Ethereum is kind of doomed as a result. 510 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: Is that? Is that to sort of pessimistic towards Ethereum, 511 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: to to think of it that way? You know, it's 512 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: You're right on the score that a lot of the 513 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: motivations for what we build are driven by problems or 514 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: inefficiencies in the in the marketplace that we think I 515 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: have got a big addressable market and the building blocks 516 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: of using crypto and blockchain tools are really well suited 517 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: to solve um. But you know, the way I think 518 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: of PITH especially, it is it's because of ethereum success 519 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: that that the motivation for PITH really really started. I 520 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: think that the you know, the development of smart contracts 521 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: and the types of creativity that you see, you know it, 522 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: We've used the analogy before, but it really does feel 523 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: like the app store moment for finance, that instead of 524 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: having to wait for you know, big software company to 525 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: figure everything out and release it, you can have a 526 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: small number of folks in a garage or a living 527 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: room or the basement or or something like that come 528 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: up with a great idea, start coding it, and then 529 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: release it into into a very welcoming environment. So I 530 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: think that the you know, the the success of Ethereum 531 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: is um is a necessary condition for something like that 532 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: to exist. Uh. And I go back to the comparative 533 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: advantage idea that there there are a lot of features 534 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: with Ethereum that are terrific, that are going to endure, 535 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: that are going to be part of this marketplace. I 536 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: think for a very long time there are gonna be 537 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: other ones. You know. Um, the way the oasis layer 538 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: one handles privacy uh and the ability to interact and 539 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: do research on data in a partition way without exposing 540 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: that data to the public. Blockchain very cool, very different 541 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: than a lot of other layer ones. The speed of 542 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: Salana and the low cost, so I think we see 543 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: a multi chain opportunity for PITH. It's really the distribution 544 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: of high fidelity market data that comes from the firsthand 545 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: knowledge of having executed the trade or been the matching 546 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: engine where the trade has taken place. And then you know, 547 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: instead of a top down approach, which has traditionally been 548 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: how market data has been distributed in finance, this is 549 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: really bottoms up. So the so are the risk takers, 550 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: the participants that have that were there at the moment 551 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: that the trade was consummated, being a beacon to say, hey, 552 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, we we think the price of ether is 553 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, thirty one oh three, or we think the 554 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: price of uh tesla is a thousand, or that you 555 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: know dollar yen is is trading at one twenty or 556 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: whatever the whatever the instrument happens to be. You've got 557 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: now more than fifty firsthand data participants, all streaming that 558 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: into a arbitration engine on the chain and then feeding 559 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: that out to anybody who wants to take it. It's 560 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: a pretty radical change in the way data is distributed. Dave, 561 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: I have one more question, sort of a bigger picture 562 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: question that actually one of our colleagues sent over to 563 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: me emmilin Nicole in London. She covers script and she's 564 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: been following your story and writing a lot about Warmhole, 565 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: and she was wondering if the kind of contingency planning 566 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: that or making everybody whole, is that the type of 567 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: contingent planning that anybody in your type of role in 568 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: crypto should be thinking about, And is there sort of 569 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: a is that a dystopian way to be thinking about it? Um? 570 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: You know, we've we've seen in traditional finance and in 571 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: defy and in crypto. You know, even the original Ether 572 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: hack where the Etherean blockchain had to react very quickly. 573 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: These are realities, you know, the Equifax hack, the You know, 574 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: there are reasonably sophisticated code bases that harden over time, 575 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: and part of the way they harden is by uh 576 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: finding their vulnerabilities when you go from a few hundred 577 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: people reviewing the code and looking for problems to a 578 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: few million people where there are very high stakes two 579 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: and very high values associated with with vulnerabilities, and that's 580 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: how they get identified sometimes. So I think that's a reality, 581 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: whether you're on chain or off chain, or a big 582 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: company or in a hacker house or no matter where 583 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: you are. Uh, that's kind of the progression that complex 584 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: software has to go through. UM. You know, you're hopefully 585 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: you don't have to do too many iterations of that. UM. 586 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: You know, we mentioned a couple of minutes ago the 587 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: ten million dollar bounty for the return of the hacked 588 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: Wormhole funds or the conviction of the perpetrators. We've also 589 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: got a ten million dollar bug bounty for finding new 590 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,959 Speaker 1: unrelated bugs, where you can be a white hat hat 591 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: hacker not be chased, you know, by governments around the 592 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: world the rest of your life, but get an eight 593 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: figure payoff from finding a critical vulnerability that's out there. UM. 594 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, we it wasn't the first 595 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: time we had thought of how we would react when uh, 596 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: something went wrong. It wasn't that afternoon when we discovered 597 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: the wormhole exploit. UH, you do, you do contingency plan 598 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: for that sort of thing. You know, you hope it 599 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: doesn't happen, and if it does, you don't you hope 600 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: it's not of that magnitude. Um. But thankfully we had 601 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: the financial resources in the in the conviction to to 602 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: react immediately when it did. But I don't think it's 603 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: discoping at all. I think it's it's pragmatic and realistic 604 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: that you gotta think that way kind of trial, trial 605 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: under fire, you know, it's Uh, well, I'll say, if 606 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: any listeners know where all that stolen EA through is, 607 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: tweet tweets a thel Dotta and I will get you 608 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: that ten million. I know, I'm not even gonna ask 609 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: for a cut of a day, but yeah, something something 610 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: like that day. If I wanted to sort of ask 611 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: you a big picture question, um about sort of the 612 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: state of the world and how crypto fits into it. Obviously, 613 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: for the world really changed about a month ago with 614 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the financial sanctions uh that 615 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: came as a result from the U S and its allies. 616 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: A lot of people sort of talking about while are 617 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: these oligarchs using crypto to to hide their money? Uh, 618 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: it's also sort of I think, put some urgency behind 619 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: the idea of central bank digital currencies at least you know, 620 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: people thinking about, well, um, you know, should chin to 621 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: make the digital uh e c N y um something 622 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: that can be used internationally with a digital ruble a 623 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: Russia to get out of, you know, around some of 624 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: these sanctions. And to me, you know, when you get 625 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: back to the idea of like, well, all are sort 626 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: of the sanctioned Russians trying to hide out in crypto, 627 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: To me, that actually goes to one of the sort 628 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: of you know, main fundamental selling points of crypto, getting 629 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: around that financial censorship that a lot of people, um, 630 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: I think is important. But at the same time, I 631 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: feel like it's also the biggest risk to crypto if 632 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: you know that type of thing is being done on 633 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: scale that uh, you know, the government regulators could really 634 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: sort of crack down a lot harder and a lot 635 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: faster than than maybe they would otherwise with with regulations. 636 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: How are you all thinking, how are you thinking sort 637 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: of the state of crypto given all these crazy current 638 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: events that we've seen, you know, is it, um, you know, 639 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: is this a danger from their regulatory side to crypto 640 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: or is it doesn't help it evolve into sort of 641 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 1: the more mature version of the industry. You know what 642 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: what's all mean to you? David give you props if 643 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: you followed any of that all the way through and 644 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: you actually know what the question is. I've got a 645 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: sentence diagram like we used to do in grammar school. 646 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: Followed all of it. It's like when you go to 647 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: the doctor and they say three words and they ask 648 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: you to repeat the three words at the end of it. 649 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: Uh and the So I think, you know, first things first, 650 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: I think I can't imagine a worse tool for an 651 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: oligarch to try to siphon money out of a bank 652 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: account or a sanctioned country. I think, you know, we 653 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: we talked about the bit fitex hackers have any resort 654 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: two hundred dollar Walmart gift cards it You know, if 655 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: you've got a couple of thousand dollars and you want 656 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: to sneak around in crypto, you know it, you might 657 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: get lost in the See if you've got fifty million, 658 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: and this is not oligarch money or or sovereign state money, 659 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: we're talking about that these fifty million dollars a lot 660 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: of money. It is tiny compared to the billions that 661 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: that are at issue with sanctions. There's nowhere to go, like, 662 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: there is no off ramp that you can find to 663 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: liquidate a crypto asset into something usable in the real world. 664 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: It just it you're stuck. You know, firms like chain 665 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: Analysis and a lot of other private companies are getting 666 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: better and better and better at identifying the provenance of 667 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: each coin's movements, where it came from, what the on 668 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: ramp was, where the off ramps going. You've got all 669 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: the eyes in the world on it, and it's totally public, 670 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: you know. The I think that, um, you know, I 671 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know a good way to evade sanctions. 672 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: I hopefully there are none, but I would imagine the 673 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: crypto has to rank among the worst possible ways. Um. 674 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: The you know, I will say for the record, Jump 675 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: Jump Capital, Jump Crypto and Jump Trading Group are not 676 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: involved in minero, you know. We you know, there are 677 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 1: some coins designed to specifically allude the types of analysis 678 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: that we're talking about. We we have not traded one 679 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: minero coin in our history. We've made a conscious decision 680 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: not to. Uh, we don't want to be a conduit 681 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: for something that would um, you know, veer into that 682 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: territory even if permitted by by rule or or regulations. So, UM, 683 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: we're very much on the side of a transparent blockchain model, 684 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: uh that authorities can use to hunt down bad guys 685 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: and uh and bring him to justice or or enforced sanctions. 686 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: So I'm much more in the camp that this will 687 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: be an educational moment for the market that crypto is 688 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: not some you know, another world back alley where you 689 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: can't see what's going on and billions of dollars can 690 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: move and no one knows where they are. Um, you 691 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: know exactly where they are, and there's just no liquidity, 692 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: uh to get off the bus. It's uh. Maybe Speed 693 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: three can be the sequel that Center Bulk is looking 694 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: for for trying to find a crypto off ramp, but 695 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: but it's not out there. Yeah. How about the the 696 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: idea of cb D c S, I mean, does does 697 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: this um, this whole financial sanctions environment sort of? Um, 698 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,720 Speaker 1: do you think it will hasten the development of CBD 699 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: season And how how do you see them fitting in 700 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: to the crypto world? Are they just a completely different beast? 701 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: You know? Were they in some ways. Could they be 702 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: a competitor to to crypto, you know, at least in 703 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: terms of just the the efficiency of a digital currency 704 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: versus the old fiat currency. You know, I think that 705 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: they'll be another tool in the toolbox. But it would 706 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: be a big deal if a major sovereign nation decided 707 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: to to take their central bank currency digital um. Crypto 708 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: has got a lot of elements that make it really 709 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: well designed for the way global commerce works, for the 710 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: way trading and markets work. You know, we've seen the 711 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: introduction of seven markets at scale really for the first 712 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: time with crypto. Banking is not seven. So there's a 713 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: little bit of a disconnect there, and that's one of 714 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: the reasons why stable points have come to such such 715 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: prominence is that they're immediately available in liquid no matter 716 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: what hour the day it is, without the you know, 717 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: the FED wire being up or the bank in Japan 718 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: being open for business or or whatever you're trying to do. 719 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: So I think that some of the elements that that 720 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: crypto is well designed for central bank digital currency would 721 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: be fantastic. You know, it would be great to have 722 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: a digital dollar that you could use for settlements at 723 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: any moment, any any time throughout the day without regard 724 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: to which bank your banking at. You can do that 725 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: in kind of limited scale today. So, UH, if if 726 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,879 Speaker 1: you've got an account at at City Bank, and I've 727 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: got an account at City Bank, and I transfer a 728 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: hundred dollars UH using their app, that actually does move 729 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: from my account into your account at two o'clock in 730 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: the morning on Sunday. You don't have to wait for 731 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: the FED to be open for that movement to take place. 732 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: But if you want to go from you know, your 733 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: accounted City Bank to the ldna's account at JP Morgan, 734 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: you've got to wait for you know, Monday morning when 735 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: when the fedwire comes back up and gets open. So 736 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: I think that it would be extremely well suited there. 737 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: I think that would be It would promote growth in 738 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: crypto overall. UH, and we would just kind of move 739 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: the rails of traditional finance one step further to being 740 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: digitized and efficient and modern and safe and UH and 741 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: more easily regulated. Frankly, all right, Dave, Well, we've got 742 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: one tradition here. We can't let you go until we've 743 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: heard the craziest thing you've seen in markets this week. 744 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: But let's start with Phildon. I'm curious what Fildona's craziest 745 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: thing is this week. Well, actually, I have a question 746 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 1: for you, Mike. Do you know what Doorja Kat and 747 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: David Solomon have in common? They're both playing Lallapalooza. Yes, 748 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: this is the thing everybody's talking about. You're in touch, 749 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: You're you're with the cool people. So David Soloman, he's 750 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,399 Speaker 1: the CEO of Goldman. We learned his week This week 751 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: he'll be performing at Lallapalooza. I think it's in July. Anyway, 752 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: the most interesting thing about this and following it for 753 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: a couple of years now, is that and Mott Levina 754 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion has written about this is that a lot 755 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: of people thought that maybe he'd have to give up 756 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,760 Speaker 1: his djaying side gig when when he became the CEO 757 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: of Goldman. But he has sort of just ignored all 758 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: of that advice and he just keeps on playing. So 759 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: it's it's amazing to me. It's been good. It's been 760 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,280 Speaker 1: good for his DJ career being Yeah, it's been great. 761 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: Spinner's got to spin, it's that easy. Yeah, So all 762 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,399 Speaker 1: you kids out there were aspiring DJs. That's one way 763 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 1: to get famous, as the DJ is just go go 764 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,439 Speaker 1: get yourself a CEO job at one of the major 765 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: Wall Street banks. That's pretty good. Filled down. I'll I'll 766 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: set my hat to you on that one. How about you, Dave, 767 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: Have you see anything crazy this week? So crazy? Um? 768 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: You know it? It's it's the lem story, uh and 769 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: the saga that continues there the you forget this week. 770 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: It's it's one of the craziest things I've seen in 771 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: my career that a major exchange where there have been 772 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,839 Speaker 1: bona fide matches between buyers and sellers, no bad data 773 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: feed or technology quirk on a rye or something like that, 774 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 1: but you had the bulk of pretty much a full 775 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: day of trading result in outcomes that were seen as bad. 776 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: Then go retroactively cancel all the trades. That is just 777 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 1: bananas crazy, It really is. It's one of the craziest 778 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: stories of the decade. I think we'll let me ask you, David. 779 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,720 Speaker 1: You know, is there a difference when you're talking about 780 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: a physical uh commodity like nicol or safe it was 781 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: oil or some something that's sort of you know, important 782 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: to the functioning of the global economy versus a uh, 783 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: financial asset. You know, does it kind of make sense 784 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: for the elementy to do that? I mean, I know 785 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: everyone's mad at them, and they're they're never gonna live 786 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: this down. I don't even know if they'll survive this. 787 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: You know, there's so much anger towards them. But you know, 788 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: in a way I can kind of see what where 789 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,720 Speaker 1: they're coming from. When it's you know, when you're pushing 790 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: the price of a commodity that's needed to keep sort 791 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 1: of the global manufacturing industry rolling. Is there a distinction there? 792 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,320 Speaker 1: Do you think that that should maybe be codified into 793 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: the rules of exchanges? So a couple of reactions to that. 794 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: I think A specially because it's a vital commodity that 795 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: the marketplaces decision of what the right prices with it 796 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: where it should trade needs to be respected. And the 797 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: buyer that needs nickel and is willing to pay a 798 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: ton or whatever price and has arranged themselves so that 799 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: they can afford that payment because it's vital to their UH, 800 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: to their business, needs to know that they bought it um. 801 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: So I think it's it's probably an even heightened expectation 802 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: that that bona fide trades need to stand when you're 803 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: talking about real world goods UM, you know, no less 804 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: so for for financial products. But I think that it's 805 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: certainly the case with oil or nickel or anything else. 806 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,240 Speaker 1: And in the event that there are some price bands 807 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: or or some circuit breakers or something like that, absolutely 808 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: that is a sound market practice position. Limits should be 809 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: in play. But all that needs to be done before 810 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: you start trading after. It's easy to say now in 811 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 1: the REB mirror, like, well, you know, if they've just 812 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: done these three things, that would have been pretty straightforward, 813 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: except for the fact that those three things are done 814 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: by almost every other major commodity exchange in the world 815 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: UH and and have been for for decades. But the 816 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: the I think, once you've got a trade and hedges 817 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: based on that position and UH and you know to 818 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,319 Speaker 1: to either save the institution or or stay u off 819 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: other outcomes, I think you just have to kind of 820 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 1: live with the trade and either step up and and 821 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,400 Speaker 1: recapitalize UM or UH or or take the medicine and 822 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: and and have the consequences be that other capital needs 823 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: to come in or you know that the bad outcomes 824 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: have to kind of play out. Nobody's rooting for those outcomes. 825 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, craziest thing I've seen quite a while, and 826 00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,239 Speaker 1: certainly no one should accept that raped ether for an 827 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: exchange for yeah, give me a buzz. All right, that's 828 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: pretty good the good answer, Dave. I like that answer. 829 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: You made me rethink how I'm thinking about all this. 830 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna give you my crazy thing. Vildana. Are 831 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: you much of a gamer? You play video games at all? No, 832 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: not at all, not at all. Me neither. No basketball, 833 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: no video games. She watches grammar videos on YouTube. That's her. 834 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 1: That's her main vie and I sports bet during football season, 835 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: remember the bills only on the bills only on the 836 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: pretty good season for you last year, then thank you 837 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: bad ending. But yeah, anyway, I'm not much of a 838 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: gamer either. Back in the day though, back in the 839 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, I was pretty good. And have you 840 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: ever heard of Pong? Bildana, the game? I want to say, no, 841 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: So this was, like I have told me about, I 842 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,799 Speaker 1: have a film, Dave played a mean game upon So 843 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: this was probably I think the first video game it was, 844 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, in an actual arcade game. I don't know 845 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,319 Speaker 1: how many quotas I pumped in playing Pong and it's 846 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 1: really simple. It's basically video ping pong. You know, you 847 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 1: got one line on one side of the screen that 848 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: goes up and down, another line on the other other 849 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 1: screen side of the screen that goes up and down 850 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: in a ball in between. Anyway, A Tori made the 851 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: first home version of it. I guess they made the 852 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: arcade version two, but they made the first home version 853 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: of it. In n Um. It's sold originally under the 854 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 1: brand name of Sears for fifty bucks. Um. It's not 855 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: bad for today's dollars. I guess that was probably pretty expensive. 856 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:45,359 Speaker 1: In anyway, the guy who created it, uh, saved one 857 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 1: of the prototypes, so pre manufacturers one of the first 858 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,200 Speaker 1: two prototypes, and this is what they took around the 859 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: Sears and whoever else and tried to sell them this 860 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: video games. The actual console, not the software for polling itself, 861 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,320 Speaker 1: but the hardware piece the home Yeah, the home console, 862 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,719 Speaker 1: the box that you would buy with the box. Yeah, 863 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: and it was um it was a hardwired circuit board. 864 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,919 Speaker 1: In other words, it wasn't you know. They eventually made 865 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 1: it with a computer chip. I think there's kind of 866 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 1: a pretty innovative as far as computer chips. UM and 867 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,360 Speaker 1: sort of accelerated the you know, development of smaller computer 868 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 1: chips back in the day. Anyway, he sold this prototype. So, Dave, 869 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: this is where we play prices right? What do you 870 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 1: think the prototype for the original Pong home video game 871 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,239 Speaker 1: sold for at auction just recently? Weld you go first, 872 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: what's your what's your bid? I'll go with two million. 873 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: I feel like the gamer community is pretty intense. Two million, 874 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna keep a straight face. This wasn't 875 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 1: an n f T. This is the actual divice. Just 876 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: my valuation a ten times the actual physical good. Who 877 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: knows you could you could buy it and blow it 878 00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: up and turn that into an n f T. But 879 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: what do you think prices right? Rules are in effective? Okay, 880 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,239 Speaker 1: so I can if i'm over, I'm dead, I could 881 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:11,279 Speaker 1: get a dollar and if it's above two million, if 882 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:17,160 Speaker 1: it's if it under basically yeah, yeah, right, all right, 883 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,399 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna take the over. I'm gonna I'm 884 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: gonna say it's two point one million. You know what, 885 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: I agree with both of you. I thought it would 886 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,400 Speaker 1: go for a few million. Actually went for a twitter 887 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: and seventy thou come on that it's going to be 888 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: some exorbitant number set up. You know, the series story exactly, 889 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,120 Speaker 1: the whole spiel it should hire you the next time 890 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: that they don't want to. Yeah, but then everybody will 891 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: fall asleep and they'll wake up for the many product. 892 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: The whole story got me thinking like, oh, this is important, 893 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: this must be big. That's why he's beating it up. 894 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 1: If you had never heard upon, you were still ready 895 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: to bid two million for picture it in my mind, yeah, yeah, 896 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: I Anyway, Dave, we'd love to get you back sometime 897 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: and talk more about all this stuff. We're really really 898 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: insightful conversation and good luck to you and everyone at 899 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,399 Speaker 1: jump uh in your your endeavors. Well, longtime listener, it's 900 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: fun to be on for the first time. I would 901 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 1: love to be back any time I get the invite. 902 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, Dave. Thanks what goes up? 903 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week and something. You can find 904 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,760 Speaker 1: us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app or wherever 905 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,439 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took 906 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,720 Speaker 1: the time to rate and review the show on Apple 907 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,799 Speaker 1: Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And you can 908 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter, follow me at Reaganonymous. Bildonna Hierarch 909 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: is at Bildonna hierarch. You can also follow Bloomberg podcasts 910 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: at podcast What Goes Up is produced by Magnus Hendrickson. 911 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,720 Speaker 1: The Head of Bloomberg podcast is Francesco lev Thanks for listening. 912 00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: To see you next time. Just not wanting