WEBVTT - Tory Hess - From Second Life to Wilderness Commune

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<v Speaker 1>If you have your own story of being in a

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<v Speaker 1>cult or a high control group.

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<v Speaker 2>Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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<v Speaker 2>that you'd like to share.

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<v Speaker 1>Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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<v Speaker 1>four seven eight six trust.

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<v Speaker 2>That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Trust me, Trust trust me.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like a swat person.

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<v Speaker 4>I've never lived.

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<v Speaker 2>To you never If you think that one person has

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<v Speaker 2>all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast

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<v Speaker 2>about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two fantasizers who've

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<v Speaker 2>actually experienced it.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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<v Speaker 2>Today our guest is Tory, former member of a small

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<v Speaker 2>rural group in upstate New York that she calls crazy Land.

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<v Speaker 2>She's gonna tell us about how she always loved reading

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<v Speaker 2>and fantasy growing up, never went to public school, and

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<v Speaker 2>didn't connect easily with folks in real life when she

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<v Speaker 2>was young, and how she found her human connection in

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<v Speaker 2>the online community of the game Second Life, where she

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<v Speaker 2>could act out her dream of having a family of

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<v Speaker 2>her own until it began to consume her life.

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<v Speaker 1>She'll tell us how some of the friends she made

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<v Speaker 1>on there eventually convinced her that she was spending too

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<v Speaker 1>much time on the game and that she should come

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<v Speaker 1>live with them in upstate New York.

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<v Speaker 4>In Crazyland.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll talk about how thirteen people were living in one

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<v Speaker 1>trailer with extremely uncomfortable living conditions like one toilet for

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<v Speaker 1>all those people, but how it also fulfilled her desire

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<v Speaker 1>for a family to take care of.

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<v Speaker 4>At least at first.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get into who the leader of Ron was, the

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<v Speaker 2>financial and sexual abuse that he was committing, how he

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<v Speaker 2>isolated her from her parents, and how she finally got out.

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<v Speaker 2>Torri's story is amazing, she is. It's such a modern

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<v Speaker 2>tale of how one can end up in a cult.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes it super interesting for me personally, hopefully for

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<v Speaker 2>y'all too. Before we jump in, what is your culture

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<v Speaker 2>thing of the week.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I've been watching the HBO docuseries Breath of Fire,

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<v Speaker 1>which is about Kundalini yoga.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not sure if you've seen it yet. Heavier you

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<v Speaker 4>look a little like you not? Okay? Great?

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<v Speaker 1>So essentially it's about this woman whose name was Katie,

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<v Speaker 1>but she became Gurujhaga and her rise to the top

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<v Speaker 1>of Kundalini and Los Angeles and the world. And it

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<v Speaker 1>hit super close to home because I lived with one

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<v Speaker 1>of my really good friends who was taking her classes

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<v Speaker 1>all over the time, who started studying Kundalini. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the people I was hanging out with or some

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<v Speaker 1>of the authors I liked, were getting certified to teach it,

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<v Speaker 1>and I felt really lazy for not wanting to do it.

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<v Speaker 4>Cadalini yoga is like so hard.

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<v Speaker 1>You would sit for an hour and a half and

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<v Speaker 1>these yoga classes that you know would have cool celebrities

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<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that, and just have your hands above

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<v Speaker 1>your head for the whole class.

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<v Speaker 4>I can barely lift a hand.

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<v Speaker 1>In general, and so I would be like, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to do these classes. I don't really like it.

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<v Speaker 1>But I always had this sense in the back of

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<v Speaker 1>my head. I was like, well, because you're too lazy

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<v Speaker 1>to do it. But now as it is exposed for

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<v Speaker 1>the cult that it is, I'm like, damn, it sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>comes in handy to not be an overachiever.

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<v Speaker 2>So true, because.

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<v Speaker 1>This shit got really crazy, it got really abusive. Spoiler alert,

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<v Speaker 1>she is the Guru is dead. It's such a mess

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<v Speaker 1>and it's heartbreaking, and I knew some of the people

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<v Speaker 1>in the doc, and it just it's really unnerving because

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<v Speaker 1>I was essentially kind of in it.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Real and there is something about Kundlim like I believe

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<v Speaker 1>in Chakras, So it was something that I was very

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<v Speaker 1>close to and it's kind of freaking me out. The

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<v Speaker 1>doc is really good and I recommend everybody watch it.

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<v Speaker 2>I will watch it. I'm so behind on all the docks.

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<v Speaker 2>I really want to watch the Stanford prison experiment one too,

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<v Speaker 2>which you know we kind of already I think have

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<v Speaker 2>talked about on this podcast that that was debunked a bit,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was the researcher was kind of misleading people

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<v Speaker 2>as to what actually happened there. But I've not watched

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<v Speaker 2>it yet, so I want to see all the tea

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<v Speaker 2>and get all the details. But I have nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>say about it because I haven't seen it yet.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh watch it. What about you?

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<v Speaker 1>What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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<v Speaker 2>Living in America?

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<v Speaker 4>Can you believe in America.

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<v Speaker 2>The election happened? Obviously, everyone's going to have really strong

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<v Speaker 2>opinions about that one way or another. I think everyone's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty clear on where I'm at with that, but I

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<v Speaker 2>just feel like it's important to mention that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to be really divided these next four years,

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<v Speaker 2>hopefully only four years, and it's going to be really

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<v Speaker 2>tempting to want to just yell at each other and

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<v Speaker 2>cut off people in our life who who have different

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<v Speaker 2>views than us, views maybe we even and think are abhorrent.

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<v Speaker 2>But as we learn over and over again on this show,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not really an effective tactic to just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>yell at people and attack them and cut them off.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you really do want to ever like get

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<v Speaker 2>through to someone or reach them or get them to

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<v Speaker 2>hear your perspective, it can be really important to do

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<v Speaker 2>something we talk about in this episode actually, which is

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<v Speaker 2>get curious and ask questions and try to stay connected

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<v Speaker 2>as best you can, even when yeah, there's to try.

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<v Speaker 1>To stay connected on topics that there's common ground on,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you know, ask little questions here and there

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<v Speaker 1>so you can understand where they're coming from. But if

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<v Speaker 1>the relationship isn't hurting you, then try to keep it alive, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Yeah, obviously it's different if somebody is verbally abusing

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<v Speaker 2>you or like just crediting your existence in some way,

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<v Speaker 2>but otherwise my understanding of the world. People might disagree,

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<v Speaker 2>but is that everyone whose views we think are abhorrent

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<v Speaker 2>from their perspective, given their experience, is given the information

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<v Speaker 2>they've exposed to, makes sense to them as being reasonable.

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<v Speaker 2>And most people, some people obviously we know are are

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<v Speaker 2>actually just straight up racist. But most people I think

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<v Speaker 2>like have their worldview for a reason and it's not

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<v Speaker 2>going to change when you yell at them. That's all. Yep.

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't agree more. Thanksgivings coming up. I know a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of us are going home. So God's speed to

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<v Speaker 1>all of us on every level of just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>making it through and keeping connections alive despite our differences,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's important.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, should we get to the interview.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, let's talk to Tory.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome Tori to trust me. Thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>joining us.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>We have so many questions for you. It's such a

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<v Speaker 2>unique story. Okay, So first, can you just tell us

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<v Speaker 2>what your childhood was like and what kind of your

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<v Speaker 2>understanding of community and religion and such was.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure I grew up in evangelical Christian home and everything.

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<v Speaker 3>So community was definitely surrounded by church, and my church

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<v Speaker 3>at that time was very small, so it was very

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<v Speaker 3>inward us focused, not outward. So a lot of my

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<v Speaker 3>childhood was friends from church. Homeschooled as well then like

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<v Speaker 3>around third grade, much of a private Christian school, so church

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<v Speaker 3>like community shifted then. And I I'm a one of

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<v Speaker 3>seven kids, big family, so that was also like growing up,

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<v Speaker 3>I just felt very outcast in my family, like I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't belong and there was something wrong with me that

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<v Speaker 3>I did not fit in. I was not enough. I

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<v Speaker 3>very much from a young age. My mom would say

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<v Speaker 3>I had a huge fantasy mind. I was fantasy oriented.

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<v Speaker 3>I read a lot, so my mind was outward like

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<v Speaker 3>inward but outward at the same time, like not in

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<v Speaker 3>the real world type of thing. And so it's very

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<v Speaker 3>hard for me to relate to people, rebate to friends,

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<v Speaker 3>especially since I didn't go to a public school. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I never went to a public like brick and mortar

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<v Speaker 3>public school. It was always homeschool with private Christian school.

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<v Speaker 3>Graduated from a cyber school, so didn't have those friendships

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<v Speaker 3>that most people have growing up.

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<v Speaker 1>What type of books were you reading, because for me,

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<v Speaker 1>it was like Sweet Valley High.

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<v Speaker 4>Babysitters Club. Were you were you also there?

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to say Harry Potter.

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<v Speaker 3>I was. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. Yeah, powder

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<v Speaker 3>fan still for the day, okay Potter, Sweet Dot High

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<v Speaker 3>of course, more Angles, wid Yeah, everything, It'sycopleedia Brown, the

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<v Speaker 3>Treehouse Club.

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<v Speaker 2>The box Car Kids, the box Car Children.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, now we're just naming every book.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I really relate to that, and it set up

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<v Speaker 1>some of your story later. So yeah, okay, yeah, you're

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<v Speaker 1>like kind of living in your hat a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>through some books.

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<v Speaker 2>What era was this, Like, what year did you graduate?

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<v Speaker 3>I graduated two thousand and nine. So I also grew

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<v Speaker 3>up in late nineties early two thousands where the Internet

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<v Speaker 3>was coming live. So because it was hard for me

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<v Speaker 3>to relate face to face, the computer set up a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of my relationships, right, like chat rooms, AOL and

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<v Speaker 3>Semessenger for those. Yeah, you don't know that. Like grew

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<v Speaker 3>up with that looking for my people because I felt

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<v Speaker 3>like I have my people here in real life.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh this is okay. I'm so glad you're here talking

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<v Speaker 2>to us, because this is such a particular type of

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<v Speaker 2>isolation that I feel like we don't really get to

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<v Speaker 2>hear about that much, but it's so so, so common,

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<v Speaker 2>and I relate to it a lot. Like I was

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<v Speaker 2>homeschooled for part of high school as well. I graduated

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<v Speaker 2>from homeschool, and I spent all of my hours on

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<v Speaker 2>the internet, all of them.

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<v Speaker 4>I know you both had wild MySpace page.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's all I'm saying. Oh yeah, you were

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<v Speaker 2>very glary.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah your signature, that's all I'm going to say.

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<v Speaker 3>If I was mad at you. You're not my top

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<v Speaker 3>eight friend.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, yes, Oh.

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<v Speaker 2>My god, that is definitely so. How old were you

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<v Speaker 2>I guess when you discovered Second life? And how did

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<v Speaker 2>you discover second life?

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<v Speaker 3>So before I get into second life, I always also

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<v Speaker 3>did online role playing through Zanga, the online journal blog.

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<v Speaker 3>So I created these narratives for many different characters I

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<v Speaker 3>would get a plot line from, like the Harry Potter series.

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<v Speaker 3>I create a character to fit into the Harry Potter series.

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<v Speaker 3>So really creating this fantasy mind setting that up in

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<v Speaker 3>my head, continue that well into high school, early college change.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to say about twenty three, twenty four something

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<v Speaker 3>like that, when the role playing with Era was ending,

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<v Speaker 3>people didn't want to do anymore. Friend I met on there,

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<v Speaker 3>It's like, hey, I have this sight called Second Life.

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<v Speaker 3>It's this game that like role playing come to life,

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<v Speaker 3>is how she explained it to me. You can make it.

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<v Speaker 3>Second Life is that online avatar game. You can make

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<v Speaker 3>it as real as you want or as much as

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<v Speaker 3>the game as you want. I dove in it headfirst

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<v Speaker 3>and made it literally my second life.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. I played Second Life like a couple of times

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, oh. I was like, there's no

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<v Speaker 2>way I can keep playing this because this will destroy

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<v Speaker 2>my entire life.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you guys give me some I have not yet

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<v Speaker 1>been on Second Life. I might join it now after

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation, but.

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<v Speaker 3>Like, careful, yeah, I can sweep you in.

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<v Speaker 4>What's the draw?

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<v Speaker 1>Like you get to live the life that you're not

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<v Speaker 1>living in your every whole life. Okay, So are the

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<v Speaker 1>people you're interacting with? Are they real people or are

0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:47.119
<v Speaker 1>they characters?

0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:47.600
<v Speaker 4>And both?

0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.679
<v Speaker 3>The real people behind this are these avatars. Some are

0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.480
<v Speaker 3>very old, some are very young. The draw like the

0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.680
<v Speaker 3>draw for me ever since I can remember, And I

0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.679
<v Speaker 3>don't know if this was because my evangelical Christian background.

0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.040
<v Speaker 3>What you're supposed to do? I'm doing air quotes for

0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.800
<v Speaker 3>those who can't see or because this was my DNA.

0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.440
<v Speaker 3>But I always wanted to be married, always wanted to

0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.800
<v Speaker 3>have kids, always wanted to be a stay at home mom.

0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.360
<v Speaker 3>That was my thing, that was what I wanted, And

0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.920
<v Speaker 3>being the early twenties, I was like, what's wrong with me?

0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.559
<v Speaker 3>I'm not married, I don't have kids. All my friends

0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:26.120
<v Speaker 3>are like what's wrong with me? And also it hit

0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.319
<v Speaker 3>that I'm not enough because all these people are even

0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.120
<v Speaker 3>though I have a full time job, I'm not content.

0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm not launching. So Second Life drew that in because

0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.840
<v Speaker 3>I found my community of misfits and I got married,

0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.199
<v Speaker 3>I had kids. Even though these avatar kids were probably

0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.080
<v Speaker 3>people older than me on this game, it didn't matter.

0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.679
<v Speaker 4>I had family air quotes again.

0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.360
<v Speaker 3>That were calling me mom, I have a husband. I

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 3>was able to be a DJ on this game. I

0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.720
<v Speaker 3>was a vampire on this game. Like everything I could

0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.839
<v Speaker 3>do in this in this second life, I couldn't do

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 3>my real world, and I just lived my full life

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.800
<v Speaker 3>revolving around the computer. Wow, so work came home right

0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:10.640
<v Speaker 3>straight on a computer.

0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's like having an alter ego almost track.

0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah you think, yeah, you think I'm like a normal girl.

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Actually I'm a vampire. I have twenty children, and I

0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 1>am awesome.

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, I mean, I just want to hear a

0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.360
<v Speaker 2>little bit more about that, like second life lifestyle, because

0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there will be plenty of people who've never played.

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Like how much time were you spending on there? And

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.640
<v Speaker 2>how much time is like your digital husband spending on there,

0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Like how much actual interaction is happening?

0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:43.679
<v Speaker 3>Very much like every moment I was not working, I

0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.440
<v Speaker 3>was not with the few face and face friends I

0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.440
<v Speaker 3>had and family, it was all spent on this computer.

0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:49.599
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.680
<v Speaker 3>He my second life husband and I were actually talking

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.560
<v Speaker 3>outside of it. So since we were all about the game,

0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.280
<v Speaker 3>we would be calling each other. We were playing to

0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.400
<v Speaker 3>meet each other each other in real life like, so

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 3>it was an extension of this game. And these people

0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.720
<v Speaker 3>I met on their air quote again met they Some

0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:09.960
<v Speaker 3>of them had my phone number. I was calling them.

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:11.839
<v Speaker 3>There were people from all the way over on the

0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 3>other side world, England, Australia I was talking to. I

0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 3>was figuring out how I could live my real life

0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.600
<v Speaker 3>to commendate my second life like I was doing real

0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 3>life stuff to a piece of parents, a peace, my friends, yes,

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.080
<v Speaker 3>I'll go out and do this, but I was literally

0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:28.960
<v Speaker 3>looking my watch counting down the hour so I could

0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 3>get back on the game.

0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.240
<v Speaker 2>And what were you doing for work at that time.

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm a medical assistant, so I was working at a

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.200
<v Speaker 3>primary care office, and so I was doing the real

0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 3>life thing making the money, but I woul kind of

0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 3>wait to get home to get back on my computer,

0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:44.840
<v Speaker 3>back to my people.

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I mean it makes so much sense. There have

0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.760
<v Speaker 2>been a number of people in my life who've had

0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 2>a very similar lifestyle for a while, and fortunately it's

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>eventually we're like, Okay, this is taking too much of

0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.640
<v Speaker 2>my time. Correct. It's crazy how how seductive it is,

0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.960
<v Speaker 2>because you would think you would think, like, well, it's

0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.160
<v Speaker 2>just a game that's not your real life, so why

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.600
<v Speaker 2>would it be addictive like that? But it is, so

0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 2>it really is.

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.800
<v Speaker 3>Especially for that core belief I had that I'm not enough.

0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.360
<v Speaker 3>I am behind this computer. Who I am in real

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 3>life is not enough. I felt like an outcast. I

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.240
<v Speaker 3>didn't fit in. I wasn't comfortable in my own skin

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.720
<v Speaker 3>at all, to be the nerd, the huge fantasy person,

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 3>the person who is fearly into Harry Potter, all of that,

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 3>I didn't feel like to be that because I wasn't

0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 3>into athletics. I was a musical Like the tangible things

0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.600
<v Speaker 3>I thought were good in the world, the tangible gifts

0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.280
<v Speaker 3>I didn't have, so of course who am I? So

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:49.920
<v Speaker 3>that's why Second Life really tapped into that.

0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 2>It makes so much sense. And I have to mention

0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.440
<v Speaker 2>that my friends and I would go on there because

0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 2>you can have a sexual life somewhat on Second Life

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:04.360
<v Speaker 2>as well, and for you know, like a little former

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Mormon girl, I was like, I can do what.

0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Yep much So yeah, what does what do you mean?

0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:12.840
<v Speaker 3>Lowo?

0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.840
<v Speaker 2>How old are you? I don't know this, I was

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:17.120
<v Speaker 2>probably nineteen or something.

0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 4>Wow.

0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>So like in theory, like this is a great opportunity

0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.240
<v Speaker 2>for all kinds of people who can't connect us easily

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.480
<v Speaker 2>in real life or for whatever reason, just have this

0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.960
<v Speaker 2>hobby to like act out some of their fantasies.

0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:31.160
<v Speaker 3>And act out disabilities.

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.600
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing inherently wrong with spending a lot of time

0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.840
<v Speaker 2>on a game, but you know, it's just maybe if

0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 2>it becomes consuming and diminishes your quality of life outside

0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 2>of the game, perhaps, although this will be a larger

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.680
<v Speaker 2>conversation we'll see as AI like as virtual reality becomes

0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:53.200
<v Speaker 2>more prevalent, Like, we'll see how that evolves. So how

0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.960
<v Speaker 2>did you finally decide like, Okay, I got to get

0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:56.520
<v Speaker 2>off this game.

0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.400
<v Speaker 3>It's actually the people I ended up moving in with

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.560
<v Speaker 3>up to State, New York towards the end of my

0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 3>time on They're they're like, well, if you are super

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.640
<v Speaker 3>addicted to this game, you should not be on here.

0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.600
<v Speaker 3>You need to take a break. This is really eating

0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:12.840
<v Speaker 3>up all your time, it's eating up all your money.

0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 3>You need to get out.

0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.720
<v Speaker 2>The other people on the game are telling you this, whoa.

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.439
<v Speaker 4>And do you have to pay for like per hour on?

0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Or it's like you buy food in the game or

0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.560
<v Speaker 1>what what are you we're paying?

0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.280
<v Speaker 3>Like, if you want good clothes, if you want your

0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.720
<v Speaker 3>avatar to look amazing, you got to put some money

0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:32.159
<v Speaker 3>into it.

0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:33.880
<v Speaker 4>Got it? Okay? Okay.

0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.240
<v Speaker 1>So the other people playing the game with you are like,

0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.120
<v Speaker 1>you're playing this game too much.

0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 4>Okay, Okay, that's a little wake up call.

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 1>I see where you're where you're at Okay.

0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:45.960
<v Speaker 2>And these are people you trusted already and had a

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.680
<v Speaker 2>relationship with on there right.

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.919
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I was starting to get to know them. I

0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.160
<v Speaker 3>was starting we were having conversations of like, hey, let's

0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 3>meet outside of second life, let's meet face to face

0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.520
<v Speaker 3>and everything. So we were starting to build that relationship

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.480
<v Speaker 3>outside a second life. And when it was immersing there,

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 3>I trusted. I was like, oh you like me? I

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:11.280
<v Speaker 3>trust you, Like there is that false sense of intimacy

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.920
<v Speaker 3>behind me that I was like, Oh, okay, even though

0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.960
<v Speaker 3>I've never met you, I don't know, I know you

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.119
<v Speaker 3>live somewhere in New York. I trust you because we

0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:22.399
<v Speaker 3>spent all the time on computer by noble what your

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.239
<v Speaker 3>face looks like? So yeah, I trust them instantly. I

0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.560
<v Speaker 3>was like, okay, yeah, I'll get off of here.

0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Why not?

0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they're offering you a different side quest, so

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.840
<v Speaker 1>to speak, come meet us in person.

0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.399
<v Speaker 2>Exactly exactly were those two things in the same breath.

0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Was it like, hey, you, you spent so much time

0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:44.760
<v Speaker 2>on there, why don't you get off and come to

0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:46.639
<v Speaker 2>this place with us? Yeah?

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:47.119
<v Speaker 4>It was.

0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:53.440
<v Speaker 2>They're so smart recruiting tegt Yeah yeah.

0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.560
<v Speaker 3>So I didn't help with them right away. The interesting fans,

0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.800
<v Speaker 3>I can be very all of them, very black and white.

0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.159
<v Speaker 3>So when I got off to this game, I was

0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.440
<v Speaker 3>like culture getting rid of everyone, And it wasn't until

0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.400
<v Speaker 3>like I was kind of creeping, like watching them from

0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.560
<v Speaker 3>the sidelines to see what they're doing. But it wasn't

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.280
<v Speaker 3>until about a year or so later that they're like, Hey,

0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.000
<v Speaker 3>we haven't talked to you forever. What I'm going to

0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 3>reach back out to you. How are you doing? We

0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 3>got off the game too, we still want to meet you,

0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.480
<v Speaker 3>how like started all that tactics again. And I was

0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.399
<v Speaker 3>still in the place in my life where it was

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 3>still very discontent. I was like, not married, didn't have kids,

0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.199
<v Speaker 3>was not happy with my job. So perfect way for

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:38.439
<v Speaker 3>them to lure me in.

0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.240
<v Speaker 2>I got to say, it's kind of brilliant going to

0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:49.240
<v Speaker 2>games like Second Life to find people to recruit, because

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 2>you're going to you're probably more likely to find an

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.760
<v Speaker 2>isolated or lonely population on their people who are in

0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 2>search of community and maybe haven't had as much of

0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 2>it in person and would be maybe excited at the

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.280
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to have that in person.

0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:05.200
<v Speaker 3>Exactly.

0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, those little fuckers.

0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Yea, yeah, and yeah, yeah, you can be surrounded by people,

0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:12.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you were one of seven, but they're not

0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:18.200
<v Speaker 1>satisfying relationships and so they know, you know, hey, people

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.080
<v Speaker 1>on Second Life might want to join us in real life.

0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:23.720
<v Speaker 3>Yep, yep.

0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:37.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, when they started reaching back out, what made you decide? Hey,

0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.560
<v Speaker 2>this place they're describing sounds like worth going to.

0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:46.359
<v Speaker 3>There was a guy involved and the kid. Yep, yep,

0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.879
<v Speaker 3>there's a guy there. I started talking to and because

0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 3>I was craving a relationship and he had a daughter, Boom,

0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.879
<v Speaker 3>my instant fantasy come true, right, fying sealed delivered. So

0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:04.400
<v Speaker 3>when I traveled up there Labor Day weekend twenty sixteen

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.159
<v Speaker 3>and I saw him with this little girls, I was like,

0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.119
<v Speaker 3>oh my gosh, this is it. This is where I

0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.719
<v Speaker 3>need to be. I'm done. These are like my relationship,

0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:14.920
<v Speaker 3>here's my family. I've been dying to have.

0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Find me up and you like a black mirror Hallmark movie.

0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, okay, what were you about to say, Lilo? Sorry,

0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.159
<v Speaker 2>you knew them before you went, or you met them

0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:28.720
<v Speaker 2>once you went.

0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.360
<v Speaker 3>I knew them before and when I reconnected with them,

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.400
<v Speaker 3>we started doing zoom call and that zoom skype calls.

0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:40.440
<v Speaker 3>Zoom wasn't done, that skiped calls, faith timed, We were

0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.199
<v Speaker 3>doing all that things. I started talking to them like

0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.040
<v Speaker 3>every minute, every day when I was off work. Basically

0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.119
<v Speaker 3>what I did in second life. Just now in real life,

0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.080
<v Speaker 3>they started becoming the people. They started becoming the ones

0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.800
<v Speaker 3>I filtered everything through.

0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.439
<v Speaker 2>Wow, how did they market this community that you now

0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:04.480
<v Speaker 2>called Crazyland? How did they present this place to you?

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:09.200
<v Speaker 3>We're all misfits too, We're all people who get it.

0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.920
<v Speaker 3>We were outcasts in our family. We didn't sit in anywhere.

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.920
<v Speaker 3>We are just like you, and we all build our

0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:21.080
<v Speaker 3>small community, this community together. We're a family that was

0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:24.400
<v Speaker 3>very strong in there. That's the buzzword. We're a family.

0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.439
<v Speaker 3>It might not be blood family, but we will be

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.600
<v Speaker 3>stronger than your blood family. We will care more for

0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 3>you than your blood family ever.

0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.159
<v Speaker 2>We will my God, sign me up. If I'm in

0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:38.159
<v Speaker 2>your position, yep, one, why would I not go?

0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.280
<v Speaker 3>And they were like, you're you're not this because growing

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 3>up also, I've always wanted to learn things like guys do,

0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:46.920
<v Speaker 3>Like I want to know how to change the oil

0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:48.479
<v Speaker 3>in a car. I want to know how to use

0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:50.879
<v Speaker 3>carpentry tools, like I want to do that get my

0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.479
<v Speaker 3>hands dirty. But no one ever taught me. And they're like, oh,

0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:55.479
<v Speaker 3>we got you. We'll teach you how to do these

0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.880
<v Speaker 3>tangible things that you won't have any guy. You don't

0:22:57.880 --> 0:22:59.720
<v Speaker 3>need to rely on any guy, you'll be a strong

0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:04.160
<v Speaker 3>and ended woman. Yeah.

0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Where was it? Where was crazy Land?

0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.199
<v Speaker 3>So this place was in upstate New York, about an

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 3>hour north northeast something north of Albany. It's in just

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:18.280
<v Speaker 3>below the outer on the mountains, so you feel like

0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:21.480
<v Speaker 3>up this mountain and it's ran between Glotterusgoe and Kroga

0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 3>Lake in it does gorgeous. New York State itself is gorgeous.

0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.040
<v Speaker 3>I kind of get over driving back and forth seeing

0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.200
<v Speaker 3>the fall foliage. I was there during the winter seeing

0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 3>the snow cap like mountains in the distant, gorgeous, gorgeous place.

0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.240
<v Speaker 3>But my the area I lived in was the poorest

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.080
<v Speaker 3>place in New York.

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 2>And just to clarify something you mentioned in your conversation

0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:48.600
<v Speaker 2>earlier as well, this was not Nexium, despite it being

0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.159
<v Speaker 2>your Albany totally unrelated.

0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.239
<v Speaker 3>Not xim though. It's interesting because I was there at

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:56.560
<v Speaker 3>the same time Nexium was starting to be blown up.

0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.560
<v Speaker 3>Oh it was in When I heard that on was like,

0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.440
<v Speaker 3>oh my gosh, and I am convinced. The head guy

0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.160
<v Speaker 3>of my group, because he lived in Renseleer, where Keith

0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.880
<v Speaker 3>Vanieri is from, was like, I would not be surprised

0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:16.240
<v Speaker 3>if he knew Keith or read some information about him,

0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.160
<v Speaker 3>had some like somehow because there was very similar things.

0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:21.880
<v Speaker 3>You would say, can.

0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:26.360
<v Speaker 2>That is so interesting because my my cult leader growing up,

0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and Keith Ranieri also like would like observe each other

0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 2>because they knew about each other. It's so they like

0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:39.119
<v Speaker 2>really do model. They like watch each other and like

0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:41.919
<v Speaker 2>model their own ship after the other person, which is

0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 2>so fucking weird.

0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:48.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. Watching the Bow was like,

0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:51.640
<v Speaker 3>oh wait, what wow?

0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Interesting? Can you tell us what was actually happening there?

0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Like physically, what were they doing on the property? Was

0:24:57.760 --> 0:24:58.600
<v Speaker 2>a business?

0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.000
<v Speaker 4>Right, looked like too and it was this guy.

0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:05.280
<v Speaker 3>It was awful. So but even though I knew it

0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.320
<v Speaker 3>was awful, I could see it. I want the audience

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:12.640
<v Speaker 3>to know. I was so captivated by having this family,

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:17.040
<v Speaker 3>having this guy and this kid, so the awful crap

0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:19.359
<v Speaker 3>in the background. I was like, I can kind of

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.199
<v Speaker 3>make do with this because I have my family. That

0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.640
<v Speaker 3>that was the big draw at that time. So at

0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:28.639
<v Speaker 3>one point they are there thirteen of us living in

0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:29.840
<v Speaker 3>a single wide trailer.

0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Whoa, yeah, how it happened.

0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:40.639
<v Speaker 3>It was insane, But that's why we call it crazy Land.

0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:41.360
<v Speaker 3>Thank you mom.

0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:46.760
<v Speaker 3>Towards the end, the head guy got a camper and

0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:49.480
<v Speaker 3>some people were living in the camper and we also

0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:53.960
<v Speaker 3>had about it seven kids from me and just a newborn,

0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:56.360
<v Speaker 3>all the way up to seven living there too. Yeah,

0:25:56.359 --> 0:26:01.639
<v Speaker 3>I see you all is fair. Yeah, so you're like family. Yeah,

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 3>so it felt like it was a commune. It really

0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:09.480
<v Speaker 3>was a little commune on painted plywood floors and walls.

0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.880
<v Speaker 3>The bathrooms could only the toys might be flushed once

0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.360
<v Speaker 3>a day, so very poor living conditions.

0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.240
<v Speaker 1>So one toilet for thirteen people that can only be

0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.520
<v Speaker 1>flushed one time per day, I.

0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Like physically can't have you guys aren't pooping like how.

0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.840
<v Speaker 3>They There was, there was, and there will be times.

0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:33.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, all right, I guess I'm going outside. I'm

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:34.000
<v Speaker 3>not going in that thing.

0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say that at that point I would

0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:38.640
<v Speaker 2>rather just do that. That's crazy pretty much.

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Yea.

0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:44.439
<v Speaker 3>And the second system hadn't been pumped like two years

0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:47.440
<v Speaker 3>or something like that, with the wanting the run, yeah,

0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.400
<v Speaker 3>the running rope water, this is where the layers come.

0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:52.320
<v Speaker 2>This is yeah yeah wow.

0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:55.119
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, I'm I'm with you, like

0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:57.400
<v Speaker 1>you got the man you got the kid. I see,

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.880
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like camping and there's l i'n't like camping,

0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 1>and I'm codependent.

0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:04.480
<v Speaker 3>So I can fix everything.

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I have the money.

0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:10.639
<v Speaker 3>What we can change this. Sign me up. I can

0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 3>rescue all these people. I have the answers. We can

0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:18.080
<v Speaker 3>change all of this. But we the running water, like

0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:20.240
<v Speaker 3>we couldn't drink the water or anything like that. We

0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:23.080
<v Speaker 3>had to actually go to like a stream to get

0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:26.040
<v Speaker 3>actually water we could drink with and everything to cook

0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:30.200
<v Speaker 3>with during the winters. We had. They called it the dragon.

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm doing air worlds. This is this huge like woodstove

0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:37.600
<v Speaker 3>type thing that at times like everyone, I want people

0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:41.520
<v Speaker 3>to know everyone's on government assistance. I'm not dissing anyone

0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:45.199
<v Speaker 3>who's on that, but these people were definitely misusing the system.

0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:49.879
<v Speaker 3>They could have easily worked. They took. They manipulated system

0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:51.600
<v Speaker 3>so they could take what they want. So those who

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.760
<v Speaker 3>are on it those who need it, and these people

0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:57.000
<v Speaker 3>didn't need it, and they were using it for those

0:27:57.040 --> 0:27:59.560
<v Speaker 3>who didn't need it. I was so I was mad

0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:03.120
<v Speaker 3>about it. At the same time, I started be one

0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:06.080
<v Speaker 3>of them. I got on assistance too, so when the

0:28:06.119 --> 0:28:08.399
<v Speaker 3>wood would run out, we would have to go out

0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:11.399
<v Speaker 3>chop the wood and like call it in and stack

0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:15.320
<v Speaker 3>the wood and throw it into Yeah.

0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:16.720
<v Speaker 1>What was kind of the reasoning of we need to

0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 1>be on assistance because we're so busy.

0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:21.600
<v Speaker 3>Our draw is the government owes us. We have worked

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:26.000
<v Speaker 3>so hard, we have this hard, crappy life. They owe us.

0:28:26.480 --> 0:28:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean listen, get I get the logic. Yeah, yeah,

0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:34.760
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people I know would probably feel the

0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:38.560
<v Speaker 2>same way. But didn't you mention that there was some

0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:40.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of machinery.

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:45.040
<v Speaker 3>Yes, so they had they called they said they had

0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:50.040
<v Speaker 3>a quote unquote landscaping snow plowing company. They really didn't.

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 3>That was their way to get a little bit of

0:28:52.360 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 3>money here and there when we were really like when

0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:58.640
<v Speaker 3>the snap ran out, when everything ran out, we needed

0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:01.360
<v Speaker 3>this money or when my money he ran out. That's

0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:03.600
<v Speaker 3>the little income they had here and there to get

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:07.400
<v Speaker 3>their quote unquote tax right off. So they there's this

0:29:07.520 --> 0:29:10.360
<v Speaker 3>big plot of land next door that they had a

0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 3>dump truck, they had a bacco, They had tons of

0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:17.640
<v Speaker 3>tractors and trucks that were always broken down. We always

0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:20.200
<v Speaker 3>had to fix them and everything. So the front of

0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:23.360
<v Speaker 3>this lot looked kind of nice. But because it backed

0:29:23.440 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 3>up into the woods. All the crap and garbage was

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:29.680
<v Speaker 3>hidden within the woods, Like I wan't be surprised that

0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:32.560
<v Speaker 3>there was bery bodies on this land like dead.

0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>As Yeah, this is wild. So how many adults actually

0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:39.040
<v Speaker 2>lived there at that time?

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:43.959
<v Speaker 3>About thirteen of us? Six seven?

0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 2>And can you tell us who the man will call

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Ron was?

0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:53.600
<v Speaker 3>Yes? Yes, so he and his wife all call her

0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Nilly no one. Ever, they referred to everyone as either

0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:03.959
<v Speaker 3>brother's sister or a daughter son, and only one child

0:30:03.960 --> 0:30:07.160
<v Speaker 3>there was actually blood related. So when you came into

0:30:07.200 --> 0:30:10.760
<v Speaker 3>this family and they set up the premise of everyone

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:13.040
<v Speaker 3>who came there, like I said the war was an outcast,

0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:15.960
<v Speaker 3>they're like, oh the family, your family kicked you out,

0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:18.880
<v Speaker 3>you don't have a place to go. Come here, we'll

0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 3>give you a place to stay, which, in and of

0:30:20.880 --> 0:30:25.320
<v Speaker 3>him South is it's great, that's wonderful. But they never

0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:27.200
<v Speaker 3>set up people to be like, Okay, let's help you

0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:29.840
<v Speaker 3>get a job, let's help you move out to get rent.

0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:35.120
<v Speaker 3>So everyone's day under that guise of my brother, sister

0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:40.720
<v Speaker 3>or daughter son. So he referred to me as his sister.

0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.680
<v Speaker 3>The guy I was with will call Jeremy as their son.

0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh weird, Yeah, okay, what do you think the reason

0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:51.280
<v Speaker 2>for that distinction was.

0:30:51.760 --> 0:30:54.640
<v Speaker 3>That the like I said, the budget's word was the family,

0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:58.080
<v Speaker 3>we are now your family, We are now the people

0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:01.560
<v Speaker 3>you refer to that we are better than that.

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.800
<v Speaker 2>And but here partner being his son, your boyfriend being

0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:07.960
<v Speaker 2>his son, was that? So he was because he was

0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:10.120
<v Speaker 2>needing to be below him, do you think versus his

0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:10.720
<v Speaker 2>brother so.

0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.480
<v Speaker 3>Below him because he was there quite a few years

0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:19.320
<v Speaker 3>before me and Jeremy. He's a sweetheart, but he was

0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 3>also a bit on the slower side, so he was

0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 3>taken advantage of in that way. And he was also

0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 3>very hard working and everything. And he had known Ron

0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:32.960
<v Speaker 3>all his years, so he was kind of like that

0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:37.800
<v Speaker 3>dad figure to him. Okay, and that's where the sun

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:40.520
<v Speaker 3>came along. But when I came along, it's like, oh, no,

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:43.480
<v Speaker 3>you're like my sister. I'm amaw you do. You're like

0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:47.320
<v Speaker 3>my sister. But yet the relationship we had was very

0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 3>it was not brother sister whatsoever, whatsoever.

0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yikes.

0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 1>Were all of the people in this community were they

0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.600
<v Speaker 1>also playing the game at some point and did any

0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.320
<v Speaker 1>those relationships reflect what the relationships have been in the game.

0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:08.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they were all playing the game, and a lot

0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:12.680
<v Speaker 3>of the girls that were there were basically darters.

0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeahs and air quotes, got.

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:17.200
<v Speaker 3>You yeah, daughter and air quotes yeah.

0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:18.560
<v Speaker 2>On the game they were daughters.

0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:22.240
<v Speaker 3>They were daughters. They were on hos of air quotes, darters.

0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:25.960
<v Speaker 3>Everyone eventually had avatar in this game. The guys eventually

0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:28.560
<v Speaker 3>like feeded out. They're like, we don't want we actually

0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:30.680
<v Speaker 3>want to go out and do real life things. And

0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:33.680
<v Speaker 3>when I say quote air quotes again real life, it's

0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 3>let's tinker around on the dump truck. Let's use this

0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.320
<v Speaker 3>bacco to say we're doing stuff around the house, but

0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:43.880
<v Speaker 3>we're really not. So everyone eventually had an avatar in

0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:44.400
<v Speaker 3>this game.

0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:46.840
<v Speaker 2>Was there just one computer? I mean, I'm just like,

0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:50.400
<v Speaker 2>how was their internet if there wasn't even Yeah.

0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:52.480
<v Speaker 3>Before I came along, I'm not sure where the money

0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:55.000
<v Speaker 3>came in. I had my suspicions of who was a

0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:58.000
<v Speaker 3>cash cow before me, But when I came in, I was.

0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:00.760
<v Speaker 3>I had the role of the cash cow. I had

0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:02.719
<v Speaker 3>the cash, I have the means. But when you were

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:04.720
<v Speaker 3>walking to the trailer, there was like a sixty and

0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 3>flat screen TV. So yeah, so they very much prided

0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 3>their things. There were two computers, one was Nelly's computer

0:33:16.080 --> 0:33:18.000
<v Speaker 3>that that was hers. But then there was this other

0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 3>computer everyone could rotate using. And some people have laptops

0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:24.120
<v Speaker 3>the would use the game for. But so they whenever

0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:26.520
<v Speaker 3>they got their tax right off, it would go, I

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:28.400
<v Speaker 3>want to go into the house. It would go into

0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:32.240
<v Speaker 3>their stuff all in the game. Yeah, into the game

0:33:32.320 --> 0:33:38.240
<v Speaker 3>and actually physical stuff like new TV, new Xbox, new computer.

0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:41.920
<v Speaker 2>New laptop, but not a toilet that you can flash

0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:49.280
<v Speaker 2>more than exactly wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 4>Second life was more important than first life.

0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.000
<v Speaker 3>Stuck exactly exactly.

0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Dad, Ron and Ron used second line too.

0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:01.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he did when I was on there, use it wholeheartedly.

0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:04.680
<v Speaker 3>But when I left, he didn't feel the need to anymore.

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.080
<v Speaker 3>And he was the one who reached out to me.

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh I was yes.

0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:14.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So Ron's kind of like going on here searching

0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:22.320
<v Speaker 1>for people who have motivation, real jobs, caring and bringing

0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:23.800
<v Speaker 1>them to this world.

0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:25.480
<v Speaker 3>I want to put it past them.

0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but once you were there, you were not working anymore.

0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:42.360
<v Speaker 3>I told everyone back here in Pennsylvania that I was.

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:45.799
<v Speaker 3>I was part time because when I was planning to

0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:47.719
<v Speaker 3>move up there, I was looking for a job. I

0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:51.239
<v Speaker 3>was trying. I was trying to find that job, and

0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:54.479
<v Speaker 3>there actually was a part time job around the town

0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 3>I was living in. I was going to be living

0:34:56.600 --> 0:35:00.120
<v Speaker 3>in up there, and so I used that to my advantage, like, oh,

0:35:00.160 --> 0:35:02.640
<v Speaker 3>I can say this is my job. I can say

0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:05.279
<v Speaker 3>this is where I'm getting So my mom believed it,

0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:08.200
<v Speaker 3>Hope Live and Singer. My dad didn't. But my mom

0:35:08.320 --> 0:35:12.240
<v Speaker 3>was like, oh cool, even though she also her shit

0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.320
<v Speaker 3>radar was up. She's like, this is crap.

0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:18.480
<v Speaker 2>This is so wrong. Were any of the other adults

0:35:18.840 --> 0:35:21.560
<v Speaker 2>recruited from Second Life to come or was it just you?

0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Just me, okay, okay, I've just never heard of this.

0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:27.520
<v Speaker 2>I've just never heard. I mean, it must happen all

0:35:27.560 --> 0:35:30.560
<v Speaker 2>the time, I've just never heard of it. It's wild.

0:35:30.600 --> 0:35:33.799
<v Speaker 1>I'm surprised they didn't keep you working to keep your

0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:37.400
<v Speaker 1>more money flowing. But I also realized that they probably

0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:39.759
<v Speaker 1>don't want you speaking to other people outside of the

0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:41.120
<v Speaker 1>group exactly.

0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:46.319
<v Speaker 3>Like when I visited there September twenty sixteen, and I

0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:48.239
<v Speaker 3>was planning to move at the beginning of the year

0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:51.719
<v Speaker 3>in twenty seventeen. But going back and forth, I was

0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 3>there when was every weekend, driving from PA all the

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:57.120
<v Speaker 3>way up there every weekend. It was my escape from reality.

0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:00.480
<v Speaker 3>It was my escape from life here in Pennsylvania. Thought

0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 3>I ate it at the time that eventually I allowed

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.200
<v Speaker 3>them to convince me so much to just run away

0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:13.040
<v Speaker 3>up there in the middle of the night in November eight,

0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:18.040
<v Speaker 3>twenty sixteen, and they just were like, And my parents

0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:22.320
<v Speaker 3>came about two weeks later for my birthday just because

0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:24.759
<v Speaker 3>they wanted to see. They had no idea what was

0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:25.200
<v Speaker 3>going on.

0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:25.920
<v Speaker 2>My mom.

0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:27.799
<v Speaker 3>There's like two parts of his story. It's my part,

0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:31.600
<v Speaker 3>my mom's part. My mom's amazing. She was fighting for

0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:34.680
<v Speaker 3>me so hard down here in PI. Love my mom

0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.680
<v Speaker 3>so much that when she saw I left my apartment,

0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:40.360
<v Speaker 3>she like broke down and started screaming and wailing in

0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:44.000
<v Speaker 3>my apartment when she saw it. Just yeah, yeah, Mom

0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:47.360
<v Speaker 3>was great. But they came up there, and I was

0:36:47.360 --> 0:36:49.160
<v Speaker 3>trying so hard to get them on board with this,

0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:52.399
<v Speaker 3>but we're like, we're not having it. That's a shit.

0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:57.240
<v Speaker 3>It was interesting looking back that I can see Ron

0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:01.520
<v Speaker 3>in the distance watching my parents parents like a hawk.

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:06.239
<v Speaker 3>They were not He was not happy. My parents were there, like,

0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:08.160
<v Speaker 3>He's not gonna say no, don't come see your daughter,

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:11.120
<v Speaker 3>because they just wanted to see what I was living in.

0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 3>They just wanted to see that physically I'm still okay

0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:17.680
<v Speaker 3>and not being held against my will. He was like

0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:20.719
<v Speaker 3>very distant, not the wrong I knew. He was like

0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:25.120
<v Speaker 3>very personable, was talking to me, saying all these like

0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:29.319
<v Speaker 3>things about his past, philosophogal talks to them, everything like that.

0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:32.120
<v Speaker 3>But my parents came. Oh no, he wasn't having any

0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:35.279
<v Speaker 3>of it. So when they left, and I broke down, going,

0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 3>what's wrong? Why don't my parents see how great this is?

0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:42.040
<v Speaker 3>Why aren't they on board? And just so upset that

0:37:42.080 --> 0:37:44.960
<v Speaker 3>I could see the disconnect between me and my parents,

0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:47.399
<v Speaker 3>And deep down I knew why, but I didn't want

0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.920
<v Speaker 3>to voice it. He was like, they don't understand this

0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:53.200
<v Speaker 3>is good for you. You're going everyone needs to go

0:37:53.239 --> 0:37:56.319
<v Speaker 3>through a rebellion phase. We're actually your family, were the

0:37:56.360 --> 0:38:00.200
<v Speaker 3>people you need to trust. We are like mom are

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:02.400
<v Speaker 3>never going to get it, and she can't get on board,

0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:04.879
<v Speaker 3>just forget about her. Woh John.

0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:10.239
<v Speaker 2>So that's some real isolating tactics trick. I'm surprised he

0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:11.920
<v Speaker 2>let them come, But it also makes sense to me

0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:14.839
<v Speaker 2>because it was so early. I feel like typically it

0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:18.200
<v Speaker 2>takes time to truly convince someone to be fully isolated.

0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:20.279
<v Speaker 2>From their loved ones, and if it was only two

0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:22.319
<v Speaker 2>weeks and he wouldn't have earned that yet.

0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:26.840
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I didn't make trips back down to during my

0:38:26.920 --> 0:38:31.120
<v Speaker 3>time up there, like for Christmas. My grandfather died during

0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:34.920
<v Speaker 3>the time that I was up there, and he was

0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:41.240
<v Speaker 3>constantly messaging me like he I was on his radar

0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:45.239
<v Speaker 3>that He's like, okay, I know that she comes. She's

0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 3>very knowledgeable, like she I'm not fully at that time

0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:53.520
<v Speaker 3>fully streak smart smart, but because I had therapy, I

0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:55.960
<v Speaker 3>had years therapy before this, It's like she knows, she

0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:59.960
<v Speaker 3>is very easily her My brain is bleaking.

0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:02.840
<v Speaker 4>Critical thinking thinking.

0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 3>Would eventually come back, and he did not want that

0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:08.160
<v Speaker 3>to so he was constantly like, we missed you up here.

0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.560
<v Speaker 3>It's not the same without you here, lost without you here.

0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:16.000
<v Speaker 3>Jeremy's lost without you here. You're a huge part of

0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:19.440
<v Speaker 3>this family. We need you back, Like anytime I was away,

0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.200
<v Speaker 3>constantly messaging me, make how much it's still attached.

0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:25.400
<v Speaker 4>How much older than you was he.

0:39:27.600 --> 0:39:32.080
<v Speaker 3>Probably between ten and fifteen years. He was late thirties

0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:35.440
<v Speaker 3>at the time I was up there, got you forties.

0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:39.960
<v Speaker 2>So there's an authority dynamic between you two. I feel

0:39:40.000 --> 0:39:42.840
<v Speaker 2>like we were just talking about this with our guest

0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:44.640
<v Speaker 2>who was on one tree Hill. Why am I blanking

0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:46.319
<v Speaker 2>on her name? Meg? And what is her name?

0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:50.280
<v Speaker 3>Book?

0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 2>It was amazing, right, yeah, so much so yeah, so good.

0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:59.840
<v Speaker 2>But it just that same thing of like when she

0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:03.480
<v Speaker 2>left and she was away, they're just constantly trying to

0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:06.120
<v Speaker 2>talk to her, keeping her brain in the group at

0:40:06.120 --> 0:40:09.960
<v Speaker 2>all times, because God forbid she would start questioning or

0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:10.760
<v Speaker 2>thinking critically.

0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:13.560
<v Speaker 3>You know, yes, yeah, yeah, I related that.

0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 4>I was gonna say.

0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:17.799
<v Speaker 1>The story reminds me besides the fact that they were

0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:21.680
<v Speaker 1>using her as keep working, don't do Broadway, keep on

0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:24.520
<v Speaker 1>these like shows that pay more money, money, money, money, money,

0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 1>So what was like their what was their ultimate want

0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:32.759
<v Speaker 1>from you? Like, what was their purpose with you?

0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:37.920
<v Speaker 3>It was that money, Yeah, and to like do up

0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:39.960
<v Speaker 3>the house better, do a little bit things better. But

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:41.920
<v Speaker 3>they didn't want me to go out and get a

0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:44.279
<v Speaker 3>job because they didn't want me to leave. So once

0:40:44.520 --> 0:40:48.000
<v Speaker 3>I also when my bank account was running low, I

0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:50.040
<v Speaker 3>got a credit card and he was the co signer

0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:54.040
<v Speaker 3>on it. So that was the other thing too, that

0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:58.960
<v Speaker 3>we could use up all this credit card line and everything.

0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:02.720
<v Speaker 3>By it, I was racking up the debt. So even

0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:05.279
<v Speaker 3>though I wasn't. Their money wasn't going in and he

0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:07.239
<v Speaker 3>the jobs he did, he would put a little bit

0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:11.040
<v Speaker 3>maybe two hundred three hundred here and there, but it

0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 3>was still okay, you have the good credit. Let's get

0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:17.360
<v Speaker 3>a credit card. That's easy. We can easily pay it off. Eventually,

0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:20.120
<v Speaker 3>we can pay it off with taxes. That was the

0:41:20.120 --> 0:41:24.439
<v Speaker 3>big thing. Taxes, taxes, taxes, let's get that tax right off.

0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, which just sigh. Yeah, why are they all

0:41:32.160 --> 0:41:34.879
<v Speaker 2>the same? I know, I want to know a little

0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 2>bit more about your understanding now of Ron's psychology. I mean,

0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:44.799
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like he had everybody pretty tightly controlled. Was

0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:47.520
<v Speaker 2>the control part of the appeal for him? Or was

0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:49.560
<v Speaker 2>it all of the appeal for him? You think being

0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:50.600
<v Speaker 2>able to control people?

0:41:51.080 --> 0:41:54.320
<v Speaker 3>I think it was all the appeal. Yeah, having people

0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:58.799
<v Speaker 3>to do various little things. He had Nelly, who was

0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:02.600
<v Speaker 3>a quote unquote wife taking care of the house, even

0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:05.600
<v Speaker 3>though there was a lot of discontentment in their marriage.

0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:10.319
<v Speaker 3>He had the air quotes again, family. He wanted. He

0:42:10.360 --> 0:42:12.680
<v Speaker 3>had someone to do the work for him. That was Jeremy.

0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:15.839
<v Speaker 3>He was the one doing like he would be up

0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:19.640
<v Speaker 3>early outside getting everything prepped. Well, Ron's up till like

0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:23.040
<v Speaker 3>twelve thirty one, oh my god, in the morning and

0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:24.400
<v Speaker 3>in the afternoon, because he would have to go to

0:42:24.480 --> 0:42:27.520
<v Speaker 3>bed into like three thirty four in the morning. So

0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:31.160
<v Speaker 3>he had all these people keeping him, having like a

0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:34.120
<v Speaker 3>little as much as you can there a cushion life.

0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:37.120
<v Speaker 4>Got you would he be staying up that late playing

0:42:37.160 --> 0:42:37.560
<v Speaker 4>the game?

0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:42.200
<v Speaker 3>No, he wasn't playing the game. He was just on TV. God.

0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so he's just a lazy little fucker who just

0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:47.680
<v Speaker 2>wants to be a prince and have everyone do everything

0:42:47.719 --> 0:42:48.080
<v Speaker 2>for him.

0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:48.480
<v Speaker 3>Yep.

0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:51.440
<v Speaker 1>And what were you Did you feel like in love

0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:53.359
<v Speaker 1>with Jeremy at this time or like.

0:42:53.320 --> 0:42:56.359
<v Speaker 3>What I was? I was very much in love, which

0:42:56.400 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 3>is why when I my critical thinking started kicking in,

0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:01.799
<v Speaker 3>I didn't want to come running back with the tail

0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:05.240
<v Speaker 3>between my legs. I had so much pride. My pride

0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:07.160
<v Speaker 3>really got into the way that I was like, I

0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:10.520
<v Speaker 3>love him and these kids, the kids that were there.

0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:14.000
<v Speaker 3>If there wasn't these kids there, I pretty much probably

0:43:14.040 --> 0:43:16.920
<v Speaker 3>would have been back sooner. I didn't want. I felt

0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:21.080
<v Speaker 3>like I had to protect these kids because I was

0:43:21.120 --> 0:43:26.920
<v Speaker 3>providing the food, the electricity, the warmth, and I was like,

0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:30.160
<v Speaker 3>I cannot let these kids starve. I don't want anything

0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:33.879
<v Speaker 3>to happen. He used those kids manipulative to keep me there.

0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:38.359
<v Speaker 3>So between my love for Jeremy and these kids, that's

0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:41.560
<v Speaker 3>what I was like, how can I figure out how

0:43:41.600 --> 0:43:44.000
<v Speaker 3>my cake and eat it too that I can kind

0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:46.320
<v Speaker 3>of disconnect from these people, move out of this place

0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:49.880
<v Speaker 3>into my own place, but still be close enough to

0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:52.080
<v Speaker 3>kind of be a part of it where Jeremy won't

0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:55.160
<v Speaker 3>be upset, that we can still be in but not

0:43:55.280 --> 0:43:55.759
<v Speaker 3>fully in.

0:43:56.239 --> 0:43:58.359
<v Speaker 4>Did you try to find that happy medium?

0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:02.480
<v Speaker 3>I did? I love and apartments. I started looking for

0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:05.320
<v Speaker 3>jobs and he was not happy. He would say, he

0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:07.640
<v Speaker 3>was like, oh, yeah, you're not happy. You need to

0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:09.440
<v Speaker 3>go on work. You need to do some work. Who

0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:12.720
<v Speaker 3>knows when we'll get our landscaped, be company up in

0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:15.000
<v Speaker 3>the spring or whatever. Yeah, go out and find a

0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:17.359
<v Speaker 3>part of time job. But when I would be like, oh,

0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:18.960
<v Speaker 3>look at this place, He's like, Oh, I don't know

0:44:19.000 --> 0:44:22.600
<v Speaker 3>about the place for you guys. I don't know if

0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:24.959
<v Speaker 3>the daughter she would really like that there?

0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:30.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, like, yeah, whose kids were they other than

0:44:30.840 --> 0:44:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Jeremy's kid? Who did they belong to?

0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:35.960
<v Speaker 3>And this is why I say, is that ongoing Jerry's

0:44:35.960 --> 0:44:40.399
<v Speaker 3>Springer episode. These kids were two of the girls there

0:44:41.320 --> 0:44:45.399
<v Speaker 3>had had kids one because the girl, I'm just gonna

0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:48.080
<v Speaker 3>gonna say, they were both Jeremy's exes living in this place.

0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:50.560
<v Speaker 3>He brought them in and they stayed.

0:44:51.080 --> 0:44:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, yeah, okay, Yeah, that's fun for you.

0:44:56.719 --> 0:45:00.960
<v Speaker 3>Ongoing Jerry Springer episode. And they are also people who

0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:04.600
<v Speaker 3>they're not fully with it. There are more on the

0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:08.920
<v Speaker 3>slower side. Again, you to manipulate them and what happened.

0:45:09.239 --> 0:45:11.960
<v Speaker 3>So they very much trusted me to act like a

0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:16.879
<v Speaker 3>parental role to these kids. So those two girls had

0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:20.000
<v Speaker 3>two kids of their own there, and then we brought

0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:24.680
<v Speaker 3>in another fam Another girl had three kids there too,

0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:27.680
<v Speaker 3>So we were bringing in people as we as I

0:45:27.719 --> 0:45:28.319
<v Speaker 3>was living there.

0:45:28.680 --> 0:45:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, whoa, who is the new one? Who was the

0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:33.000
<v Speaker 2>new woman?

0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:36.760
<v Speaker 3>She was just somebody who knew one of the girls

0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:39.520
<v Speaker 3>in the group, okay, And she's like, I need a

0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:42.359
<v Speaker 3>place to stay. I'm getting kicked out. I can't let

0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:44.120
<v Speaker 3>my kids starve and go cold, and we're like.

0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:48.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, come on in, none of you guys better go

0:45:48.120 --> 0:45:48.800
<v Speaker 4>to the bathroom.

0:45:52.320 --> 0:45:56.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. It was insane. Yeah, basically going outside during the

0:45:56.800 --> 0:45:59.560
<v Speaker 3>winter to was like yeah.

0:45:59.200 --> 0:46:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, Yeah, I have to know what the

0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:13.240
<v Speaker 2>sleeping arrangements were, because how I cannot I still can't

0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:14.840
<v Speaker 2>process how you all would fit in that.

0:46:15.480 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 3>It was impressive. I will say this. Ron was a

0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:24.800
<v Speaker 3>really smart dude. He knew his shit, he knew he knew,

0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.680
<v Speaker 3>and he was able to look at a space and

0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:29.399
<v Speaker 3>be like, how can we make people fit in there?

0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:32.120
<v Speaker 3>So they added on a little room for me and Jeremy.

0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:36.720
<v Speaker 3>There were three rooms. There was a three rooms along

0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.440
<v Speaker 3>the hallway and like the masterroom air quoting that in

0:46:39.480 --> 0:46:43.959
<v Speaker 3>the back. So the one room by the living room

0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:48.120
<v Speaker 3>they set up two little toddler coots who are the

0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:50.839
<v Speaker 3>first two girls who were there, Kenzie and the other girl,

0:46:51.080 --> 0:46:54.640
<v Speaker 3>and then one of the of Jeremy's ex's let there.

0:46:54.960 --> 0:46:59.640
<v Speaker 3>Then they had another room where the blood sun of

0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:05.080
<v Speaker 3>Naly and Ron lept there and something he had a

0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:08.680
<v Speaker 3>bunk bed, so sometimes another person was able to go

0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:09.359
<v Speaker 3>in there.

0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Wow yeah yeah.

0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:14.480
<v Speaker 3>And then there's a third room in the back that

0:47:15.600 --> 0:47:19.719
<v Speaker 3>a couple slept there, and then Nally slept in the

0:47:19.760 --> 0:47:21.600
<v Speaker 3>back while Ron slept in the living room most of

0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:25.319
<v Speaker 3>the time. Okay, and when people came along with the

0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:27.759
<v Speaker 3>new girl came along with her kids, that's when the

0:47:27.800 --> 0:47:32.120
<v Speaker 3>camper came along, got you and went to gotcha?

0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, okay, And I have to ask this question

0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:40.600
<v Speaker 2>because this is just what inevitably comes up with these situations.

0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Was Ron sexually abusing anybody?

0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:49.960
<v Speaker 3>Yes? I found out later, Yes, he didn't me for

0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:54.560
<v Speaker 3>there was definitely if it wasn't for Jeremy, he definitely

0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:58.440
<v Speaker 3>would have. He definitely would have gaus. Looking back, there

0:47:58.440 --> 0:48:00.960
<v Speaker 3>were sexual conversations between him and I. That's why I

0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:03.080
<v Speaker 3>said he didn't treat me like it's just cure because

0:48:03.080 --> 0:48:07.160
<v Speaker 3>of the conversation. But he was actually abusing.

0:48:07.080 --> 0:48:11.920
<v Speaker 2>To the girls there. Yeah, the adult girl's adults, and.

0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:17.080
<v Speaker 3>I fully I fully believe the kids too. I cannot

0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:21.680
<v Speaker 3>prove it. But with things, and I can't get too

0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:24.839
<v Speaker 3>much into this because there's a trial going on with

0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:29.319
<v Speaker 3>my ex regarding some stuff. I would not be surprised,

0:48:29.680 --> 0:48:33.319
<v Speaker 3>like just looking back kindstinks always twenty twenty that I'm like,

0:48:33.760 --> 0:48:36.799
<v Speaker 3>he has to be too, he has to be. How

0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:37.480
<v Speaker 3>can he not be?

0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:41.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh my gosh, what a nightmare.

0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:44.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, very, this is awful.

0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:49.400
<v Speaker 3>Very, I'm very sorry, which is why those kids I felt,

0:48:50.320 --> 0:48:52.480
<v Speaker 3>even though I wasn't able to protect them. There's all

0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:54.800
<v Speaker 3>this crap going on that I didn't know until later.

0:48:55.239 --> 0:48:56.880
<v Speaker 3>I felt like I had to protect them. I was

0:48:56.920 --> 0:49:00.840
<v Speaker 3>the most sane of this insane place. Yeah, want to

0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:02.759
<v Speaker 3>get some structure to these kids.

0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:05.640
<v Speaker 2>That in stig makes so much sense to me, And yeah,

0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:09.319
<v Speaker 2>it is such a useful tool on his part, which

0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:13.399
<v Speaker 2>is not like, yeah, anyone who comes in and see

0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:15.719
<v Speaker 2>these kids in this situation is going to be like, well, fuck,

0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:17.040
<v Speaker 2>now I have to take care of these kids. Now

0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:18.680
<v Speaker 2>I have to make sure that these kids are safe.

0:49:18.719 --> 0:49:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Like it's just playing on your instincts and yeah, making

0:49:22.400 --> 0:49:27.520
<v Speaker 1>you take care of them. I'm wondering how, like, how

0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:30.440
<v Speaker 1>did your thought process begin to change when you're in

0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:34.759
<v Speaker 1>the deepest part of it, Like, how are you reconciling? Yeah,

0:49:34.760 --> 0:49:37.040
<v Speaker 1>how are you reconciling what's happening?

0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:42.160
<v Speaker 3>It was very much pride, very prideful, because deep deep down,

0:49:43.040 --> 0:49:45.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's no when you go to use a

0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:49.600
<v Speaker 3>bathroom full of poop, you that's it. That's the like

0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:54.440
<v Speaker 3>visual like, Okay, this is really no pun intended crappy situation, like,

0:49:54.760 --> 0:49:59.200
<v Speaker 3>there's no But I was just like, okay, how I

0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:03.200
<v Speaker 3>kept thinking how I change this around for people? I

0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:08.200
<v Speaker 3>wanted to rescue these people, not just the kids, but Jeremy,

0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:11.640
<v Speaker 3>all the even these two exes who I had a

0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:13.720
<v Speaker 3>battle back in my back and forth in my mind,

0:50:14.200 --> 0:50:16.480
<v Speaker 3>like I can't believe I'm living here with them, But

0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:21.000
<v Speaker 3>at the same time, how can I better them? I cared,

0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:24.600
<v Speaker 3>I cared so much for these people at the same time,

0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:26.880
<v Speaker 3>so it's like, I want to save these people. I

0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:30.719
<v Speaker 3>want to rescue these people. I had the knowledge I

0:50:30.920 --> 0:50:35.120
<v Speaker 3>can do this and a pride of Okay, I chose this,

0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:37.360
<v Speaker 3>so I'm going to make the best of my situation

0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:38.520
<v Speaker 3>as much as possible to.

0:50:40.120 --> 0:50:40.319
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:50:40.440 --> 0:50:44.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, probably, like not wanting the people who had been

0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:45.600
<v Speaker 1>like this is kind of weird to be right.

0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it sounds to me like, you know, you were

0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:52.160
<v Speaker 2>describing earlier how you want to learn how to do

0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:54.560
<v Speaker 2>the things that the men can do, and it sounds

0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:57.200
<v Speaker 2>like you have this really like figure it out, can

0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.600
<v Speaker 2>do attitude, which.

0:50:59.400 --> 0:51:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Oh, if I had a cult, you'd be the first

0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:03.960
<v Speaker 1>person I would have joint. And you're like, you know,

0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:07.799
<v Speaker 1>hard working, smart, Like it sounds like your hands were

0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:09.839
<v Speaker 1>really getting dirty, but you were enjoying it.

0:51:10.200 --> 0:51:12.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean I was learning things that like I

0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:17.320
<v Speaker 3>was learning carpentry, skilled I wrote a snowmobile, I wrote,

0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:19.840
<v Speaker 3>I learned how to drive a bacco. We were tearing

0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:24.080
<v Speaker 3>down trailers and everything. So I was doing stuff that

0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:27.680
<v Speaker 3>i've around here were in the county I live, There's

0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:30.240
<v Speaker 3>no way I could get that. So I was learning

0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:33.080
<v Speaker 3>useful tools. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I

0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:35.839
<v Speaker 3>can do this. It was giving me the strength to go,

0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 3>I can do this. I'm not a helpless woman. I

0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:41.719
<v Speaker 3>can use a drill. Now I write all this, I

0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:44.800
<v Speaker 3>can use a chainsaw and survive. This is amazing.

0:51:45.440 --> 0:51:47.840
<v Speaker 1>So did that kind of make you feel as though

0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:52.600
<v Speaker 1>like now your first life was where the real magic

0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:55.600
<v Speaker 1>and like stuff was and you didn't need the second

0:51:55.600 --> 0:51:58.760
<v Speaker 1>life anymore because your first life was like meeting your needs.

0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, very much, so very much. So I did not

0:52:01.600 --> 0:52:04.560
<v Speaker 3>go on that game at all when I was up there,

0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:07.320
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, they were all on it. I was like,

0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:10.520
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to be outside with the boys, show me

0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:12.520
<v Speaker 3>how to use the oil, like I was.

0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Doing all that. So how long were you did You

0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:18.840
<v Speaker 2>actually live there for a year and a half And

0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:21.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, your parents obviously were suspicious in the beginning,

0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:23.799
<v Speaker 2>and that came early on. What about like a little

0:52:23.800 --> 0:52:26.080
<v Speaker 2>bit further in like six months a year in like

0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:30.960
<v Speaker 2>what was your relationship with them? Like I so I.

0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:34.279
<v Speaker 3>Actually cut when I When was it that I cut them off?

0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:37.000
<v Speaker 3>I did eventually cut them off, very much like I

0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.919
<v Speaker 3>would say Happy Birthday to my mom, I would say

0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:45.040
<v Speaker 3>Happy Mother's Day, like do the nice daughter stuff. But

0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:47.680
<v Speaker 3>there was definitely I did not want to hear it.

0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:50.440
<v Speaker 3>My head was in the sand, like Ostrich, I'm like, nope,

0:52:51.080 --> 0:52:54.680
<v Speaker 3>didn't leave me alone. I'm doing what I'm doing and everything.

0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:58.000
<v Speaker 3>And they I did not know this at the time,

0:52:58.360 --> 0:53:02.400
<v Speaker 3>but they were doing investigators on their side just to

0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:07.120
<v Speaker 3>see like what's going on? Who are these people my

0:53:07.360 --> 0:53:10.799
<v Speaker 3>daughter is there with? So they were and they were

0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:13.640
<v Speaker 3>doing a lot on their side of like my dad

0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:18.080
<v Speaker 3>was more the one who was asking, gently asking the

0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:20.759
<v Speaker 3>questions while I was down there like trying to. Like

0:53:21.239 --> 0:53:22.960
<v Speaker 3>Joyce said in her book.

0:53:22.920 --> 0:53:24.400
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say, yeah.

0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:27.759
<v Speaker 3>Build that relationship my mom, my dear amazing mom. She's

0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.560
<v Speaker 3>one who can kind of have no filter and when

0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:32.080
<v Speaker 3>it comes to me, she's like, I'm not going to

0:53:32.160 --> 0:53:34.279
<v Speaker 3>lie to you, like I'm not going to hold back.

0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:35.960
<v Speaker 3>This is grap I just got to get it out.

0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:38.920
<v Speaker 3>Then you do with it. What you will. So my

0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:43.120
<v Speaker 3>mom was definitely the powerhouse of like we like she

0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:45.839
<v Speaker 3>was praying, she was like this is awful. We need

0:53:45.840 --> 0:53:47.920
<v Speaker 3>to get you out of this, and everything, well, my

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:52.520
<v Speaker 3>dad was gently probing and asking these questions. When I

0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:54.800
<v Speaker 3>was down there and still trying to maintain a relationship

0:53:54.880 --> 0:53:55.960
<v Speaker 3>as much as possible.

0:53:56.440 --> 0:53:58.280
<v Speaker 4>How did when did it start to collapse?

0:53:59.200 --> 0:54:02.880
<v Speaker 3>So I came down for my birthday November twenty seventeen

0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:12.160
<v Speaker 3>and actually today's my birthday, Actually today's my birthday birthday,

0:54:13.400 --> 0:54:16.520
<v Speaker 3>and my dad took me off to to eat. I

0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:19.320
<v Speaker 3>forget what was lunch for dinner, and we were talking

0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:22.759
<v Speaker 3>doing the nice to be things, and he goes and

0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:25.680
<v Speaker 3>my family knows, calls me Victoria. So he's like, Victoria,

0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:29.400
<v Speaker 3>here's what I want you to do. I just want

0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:33.040
<v Speaker 3>you to start asking questions and observe. That's all.

0:54:33.080 --> 0:54:37.279
<v Speaker 1>I want you to smart, smart to start asking questions

0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:38.000
<v Speaker 1>and observe.

0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:42.280
<v Speaker 3>Yep, ask me. And at that time there were things

0:54:42.400 --> 0:54:44.880
<v Speaker 3>slowly I was like, wait a minut, does that add up?

0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:47.480
<v Speaker 3>Does that add up? And that was like the affirmation

0:54:47.680 --> 0:54:52.920
<v Speaker 3>I needed to go, Okay, maybe I should. Dad is

0:54:52.960 --> 0:54:56.200
<v Speaker 3>my and my dad is one who when he's very quiet,

0:54:56.600 --> 0:55:00.440
<v Speaker 3>like everyone just hushed because he has the wealth of knowledge.

0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:03.440
<v Speaker 3>He has so much wisdom. It's like, okay, dad, Like

0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:06.120
<v Speaker 3>mom's always saying this, and of course I do like

0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.120
<v Speaker 3>my mom, like you know, it's a fair and s now.

0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:12.920
<v Speaker 3>But it's like, okay, Dad, you're affirming this. So and

0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:17.640
<v Speaker 3>that's what started it that I started slowly poking holes

0:55:17.680 --> 0:55:20.799
<v Speaker 3>and kind of making notes on a story Ron would

0:55:20.840 --> 0:55:23.239
<v Speaker 3>give then follow it up in a month be like,

0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:28.880
<v Speaker 3>so you said that your uncle's in the mafia and

0:55:29.000 --> 0:55:33.200
<v Speaker 3>that he had a heart attack, but he now is

0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:39.880
<v Speaker 3>back in the hospital for cancer, right, what like slowly asked,

0:55:39.920 --> 0:55:43.120
<v Speaker 3>like like I said, poking holes, asking questions and just

0:55:43.200 --> 0:55:47.120
<v Speaker 3>making notes of all that in my mind and going okay,

0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:51.960
<v Speaker 3>this is crazy, it's not right, And as there was

0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:54.160
<v Speaker 3>still a fog in my mind, but it was enough

0:55:54.200 --> 0:55:57.680
<v Speaker 3>for my cognitive distance to kick in and go, okay,

0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:01.440
<v Speaker 3>I don't I don't want to about of the state.

0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:05.560
<v Speaker 3>I love Jeremy, I love these kids. I can't start

0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:08.480
<v Speaker 3>staying here. The more people that were coming in, he

0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:11.239
<v Speaker 3>was starting to listen to other people and not me anymore.

0:56:12.600 --> 0:56:15.080
<v Speaker 3>Uh huh. I started to see that shift. I'm like,

0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:20.040
<v Speaker 3>she's not like, she's not meeting the criteria for this.

0:56:20.800 --> 0:56:23.239
<v Speaker 3>What she's doing is wrong. She's manipulating things now, and

0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:25.640
<v Speaker 3>you're listening to her. So there started to be a

0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:26.839
<v Speaker 3>shift in the group that.

0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:31.120
<v Speaker 2>Was like Ron would start to listen to someone knew

0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:34.000
<v Speaker 2>who had her outd yep. Oh interesting, yep.

0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:38.440
<v Speaker 3>And I was like, hmm hmm, this isn't because I

0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:40.200
<v Speaker 3>think he was having sexual relations with her.

0:56:40.600 --> 0:56:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Mm yeah, what were some of the other things, Like

0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:49.399
<v Speaker 2>prior to your dad saying that, were there moments where

0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:51.920
<v Speaker 2>you'd be like, huh, that doesn't seem like it's true,

0:56:52.520 --> 0:56:54.440
<v Speaker 2>or like did anything come up for you like that?

0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:58.880
<v Speaker 3>He is very good at the fantasy world do He

0:56:58.920 --> 0:57:01.360
<v Speaker 3>would say all these things about his family where he's like,

0:57:01.440 --> 0:57:04.440
<v Speaker 3>I have this aunt who's in the circus, and at

0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:08.840
<v Speaker 3>that time I was making I was taking plastic bags

0:57:09.320 --> 0:57:11.680
<v Speaker 3>and making actual like toape bags out of them. It's

0:57:11.680 --> 0:57:15.279
<v Speaker 3>called porning, like reuse and recycle. It's very cool. So

0:57:15.520 --> 0:57:18.240
<v Speaker 3>anyone who likes croucheting look it up. It's very helpful.

0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:21.520
<v Speaker 3>And he's like, I can get all these plastic bags

0:57:21.520 --> 0:57:23.840
<v Speaker 3>so you can make all these toads and sell them.

0:57:23.920 --> 0:57:26.000
<v Speaker 3>My aunt is in the circus. She has tons of them.

0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:29.240
<v Speaker 3>It's going to be dropped off in a few weeks.

0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:32.640
<v Speaker 3>Never happened, and anytime I asked, it was like, what's

0:57:32.680 --> 0:57:35.400
<v Speaker 3>going on? Where are these things? And at that time

0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:38.640
<v Speaker 3>it's like, okay, whatever. I don't really know his family.

0:57:39.800 --> 0:57:43.800
<v Speaker 3>But then I started talking to because his blood family

0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:46.960
<v Speaker 3>lived nearby, and I started asking the blood family a

0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:49.120
<v Speaker 3>few questions, like do you have the aunt who's in

0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:49.840
<v Speaker 3>the circus? What?

0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:54.440
<v Speaker 1>No, never moved back when in the circus bringing me

0:57:54.560 --> 0:57:57.960
<v Speaker 1>the plastic bags, right, Like.

0:57:58.120 --> 0:58:02.080
<v Speaker 3>Do you have a brother in the mafia? Like how

0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:03.320
<v Speaker 3>many brothers do you have?

0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:58:03.840 --> 0:58:07.200
<v Speaker 3>I only have one brother? Oh, and I'm thinking about

0:58:07.240 --> 0:58:11.200
<v Speaker 3>I was told you had like five oh, things like that.

0:58:11.680 --> 0:58:12.680
<v Speaker 3>Little things like that.

0:58:12.760 --> 0:58:14.960
<v Speaker 4>I was like, hmm, and how would your brain explain

0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:15.320
<v Speaker 4>them away?

0:58:15.360 --> 0:58:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Would it just be like, well, if you have a

0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:18.520
<v Speaker 1>brother in the mafia, of course they're not going to

0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:19.760
<v Speaker 1>like say it or.

0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:21.800
<v Speaker 4>Stuff like that.

0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:22.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:58:22.200 --> 0:58:24.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, just was like, Okay, I'm not going to question that.

0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:29.080
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to die, right, I don't want to

0:58:29.120 --> 0:58:32.320
<v Speaker 3>do that. Or like he was like, we're in the Freemasons,

0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:35.920
<v Speaker 3>and I don't know that much about the Freemasons, right,

0:58:36.560 --> 0:58:39.400
<v Speaker 3>I was like, Okay, it's that's a secret group. I

0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:41.200
<v Speaker 3>don't want to like, I don't want people come out

0:58:41.200 --> 0:58:42.440
<v Speaker 3>of the woods and attack me.

0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:46.919
<v Speaker 2>Right of course he's saying, yeah, of course he's saying

0:58:46.960 --> 0:58:50.040
<v Speaker 2>things that have some like an air of secrecy around them.

0:58:50.160 --> 0:58:52.280
<v Speaker 2>So exactly plausible.

0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:54.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, exactly.

0:58:54.680 --> 0:58:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Did he present himself as like a some kind of

0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:03.920
<v Speaker 2>special authority of some kind on life or spiritually or

0:59:03.960 --> 0:59:05.000
<v Speaker 2>anything like that.

0:59:05.000 --> 0:59:08.800
<v Speaker 3>It was he was spiritually No, because his birthday was

0:59:08.840 --> 0:59:10.960
<v Speaker 3>on October thirty first, so he always said he was

0:59:11.000 --> 0:59:14.960
<v Speaker 3>part of the devil. He was like the double spawn. Okay, lovely,

0:59:16.160 --> 0:59:20.680
<v Speaker 3>more like I know so much about history and everything,

0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:25.439
<v Speaker 3>and I have all this like like I said, it's survivalists.

0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:27.280
<v Speaker 3>I have all these things that help you survive in

0:59:27.360 --> 0:59:31.640
<v Speaker 3>the world that people cast decide that people don't know.

0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:36.800
<v Speaker 3>How good at a mechanic I am, at a landscaper

0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:39.120
<v Speaker 3>I am. I have all these tricks that can help

0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:41.680
<v Speaker 3>you succeed in life. By why you don't need to

0:59:41.720 --> 0:59:43.760
<v Speaker 3>go to a nine to five job. I can help

0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:47.439
<v Speaker 3>you survive with these little locations things.

0:59:47.960 --> 0:59:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Was there this sense of like an impending apocalypse or

0:59:53.520 --> 0:59:55.360
<v Speaker 2>was there a prepper element to all of it.

0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:59.160
<v Speaker 3>There wasn't a prepper element, they didn't have the money,

0:59:59.720 --> 1:00:02.840
<v Speaker 3>but it was definitely like we are going to protect

1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:05.439
<v Speaker 3>our own though, like I'm going to teach you guys

1:00:05.480 --> 1:00:08.680
<v Speaker 3>how to survive that if, like it wasn't preppy, but

1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:11.120
<v Speaker 3>if something were to happen, you know how or if

1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:14.160
<v Speaker 3>if you ever do leave but don't you can survive

1:00:14.240 --> 1:00:16.840
<v Speaker 3>out there. Right, It's a fun way to survive. And

1:00:16.880 --> 1:00:18.360
<v Speaker 3>we're and one of the big things that we're going

1:00:18.440 --> 1:00:20.160
<v Speaker 3>to take this off the grid and we're going to

1:00:20.200 --> 1:00:22.400
<v Speaker 3>live on our own where no one can touch.

1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:26.520
<v Speaker 2>This type of thing. Right, that would get me. I've

1:00:26.520 --> 1:00:28.920
<v Speaker 2>talked about this before, but my boyfriend and I we

1:00:29.080 --> 1:00:32.280
<v Speaker 2>like started getting into like learning how to like we

1:00:32.320 --> 1:00:34.760
<v Speaker 2>suck at it. We don't we would not survive currently,

1:00:35.160 --> 1:00:39.360
<v Speaker 2>but we took one class and like, oh, this is

1:00:39.400 --> 1:00:43.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe gonna be our personalities now. Like I totally understand

1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:46.240
<v Speaker 2>the appeal of that also as someone who's like I

1:00:46.320 --> 1:00:49.840
<v Speaker 2>want to do what we always do, you know, yeah.

1:00:49.720 --> 1:00:52.680
<v Speaker 3>And like the government, who was like the governments into everything,

1:00:53.040 --> 1:00:56.520
<v Speaker 3>so we need to avoid the government, even.

1:00:56.320 --> 1:01:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Though we're saying less and you're getting paid from the gun.

1:01:02.040 --> 1:01:05.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah right, right, that's one of I remember after the

1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:07.600
<v Speaker 3>time my dad asked told me to do that. That

1:01:07.680 --> 1:01:09.160
<v Speaker 3>was one of things I came back. I was like, wait,

1:01:09.200 --> 1:01:12.640
<v Speaker 3>what this doesn't make We're going and then the government

1:01:12.800 --> 1:01:16.080
<v Speaker 3>isn't everything, but yeah, we're going to take money for okay,

1:01:16.240 --> 1:01:17.120
<v Speaker 3>make it make sense.

1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:19.240
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't right right right?

1:01:20.280 --> 1:01:24.080
<v Speaker 1>Wow, So you're in deep you like you now are

1:01:24.160 --> 1:01:26.240
<v Speaker 1>caring for these people like they are your family, and

1:01:26.320 --> 1:01:30.720
<v Speaker 1>in some ways the children are what's kind of the

1:01:30.800 --> 1:01:32.680
<v Speaker 1>straw that breaks the camel's back.

1:01:33.320 --> 1:01:37.360
<v Speaker 3>Honestly, it was when that the new girl came in

1:01:38.080 --> 1:01:41.880
<v Speaker 3>and just how she was treating these kids and there

1:01:41.960 --> 1:01:45.960
<v Speaker 3>was so much chaos going on and everything, and that

1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:49.760
<v Speaker 3>like the whole structure was starting to shift, and once

1:01:49.800 --> 1:01:52.920
<v Speaker 3>again I felt like I don't fit in here, and

1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:56.240
<v Speaker 3>I'm trying to voice these things and he's not listening,

1:01:56.440 --> 1:02:00.439
<v Speaker 3>Like I don't feel safe anymore, and I don't see

1:02:00.480 --> 1:02:04.600
<v Speaker 3>these kids being safe. So I need a solution to

1:02:05.200 --> 1:02:09.720
<v Speaker 3>so kind of be around because Jeremy, he would Our

1:02:09.760 --> 1:02:12.720
<v Speaker 3>relationship was back and forth at times, so to be like, oh, yeah,

1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:14.640
<v Speaker 3>this is weird, this isn't right, and be like, oh no,

1:02:14.920 --> 1:02:17.680
<v Speaker 3>you're making this up, Like he's not like that but

1:02:17.880 --> 1:02:19.240
<v Speaker 3>so I was like, Okay, I need to be close

1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:21.840
<v Speaker 3>enough so he can still maybe take time to see

1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:24.240
<v Speaker 3>it on his own, but have my own space that

1:02:24.440 --> 1:02:27.960
<v Speaker 3>I set the rules. That's distance enough, a safe place

1:02:28.000 --> 1:02:29.560
<v Speaker 3>for these kids to escape too.

1:02:30.880 --> 1:02:31.880
<v Speaker 2>And what did that look like.

1:02:34.120 --> 1:02:37.360
<v Speaker 3>I wouldn't be like an apartment, my own job, an

1:02:37.400 --> 1:02:41.440
<v Speaker 3>apartment nearby that it was this place to be like, hey,

1:02:41.480 --> 1:02:43.280
<v Speaker 3>we'll take them for the weekend, We'll take them for

1:02:43.320 --> 1:02:45.560
<v Speaker 3>a few days or anything, and they can stay here

1:02:45.600 --> 1:02:48.280
<v Speaker 3>for a little bit, to set up a good structure

1:02:48.320 --> 1:02:51.080
<v Speaker 3>for these kids, like, hey, this is well running water

1:02:51.160 --> 1:02:56.640
<v Speaker 3>looks like Look, it's amazing, flashing the toilet looks like

1:02:58.080 --> 1:03:03.800
<v Speaker 3>phenomenal things like that. That's like, these are decent human

1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:05.480
<v Speaker 3>things we need. Right.

1:03:06.560 --> 1:03:09.200
<v Speaker 2>Was Ron upset, like how did he react when you

1:03:09.760 --> 1:03:10.560
<v Speaker 2>got a place?

1:03:11.320 --> 1:03:12.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, I didn't get a place.

1:03:12.480 --> 1:03:12.959
<v Speaker 2>Oh you didn't.

1:03:13.400 --> 1:03:16.040
<v Speaker 3>I didn't. That's what I wanted, and that's why I

1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:18.680
<v Speaker 3>started looking forward. That's where he was like, Oh, that's

1:03:18.720 --> 1:03:22.200
<v Speaker 3>a good idea. But then an hour later or so,

1:03:22.360 --> 1:03:24.680
<v Speaker 3>or maybe the next day, he's like that place isn't good.

1:03:24.840 --> 1:03:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Not that place, not that pay Yeah.

1:03:26.320 --> 1:03:28.680
<v Speaker 3>And I wanted to get back into the medical field

1:03:29.160 --> 1:03:30.520
<v Speaker 3>and Abo. I was like, you know what, I'll take

1:03:30.560 --> 1:03:32.360
<v Speaker 3>any job. He goes, Oh, you're not good enough for

1:03:32.400 --> 1:03:35.200
<v Speaker 3>that job. You're not good enough. You don't let your

1:03:35.320 --> 1:03:40.000
<v Speaker 3>skills of being a medical assistant sit here at McDonald's

1:03:40.360 --> 1:03:43.640
<v Speaker 3>or a factory where I'm thinking start low and work

1:03:43.720 --> 1:03:45.840
<v Speaker 3>my way up. Let me just get out there again.

1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:48.000
<v Speaker 3>And he's like, oh no, no, no, no, you need something that.

1:03:48.840 --> 1:03:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh. He was like, you're you're too good for that job. Yes, yeah, okay, okay.

1:03:54.120 --> 1:03:57.800
<v Speaker 2>What was the thing that actually got you out?

1:03:58.640 --> 1:04:05.560
<v Speaker 3>So I remember one morning I was putting a crap

1:04:05.680 --> 1:04:08.080
<v Speaker 3>ris of may out to different places in indeed in

1:04:08.120 --> 1:04:11.919
<v Speaker 3>New York, and I was like, Okay, if I'm meant

1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.440
<v Speaker 3>to come back home to PA, I'm going to apply

1:04:14.520 --> 1:04:17.520
<v Speaker 3>for a job down here that if I'm meant to

1:04:17.720 --> 1:04:21.920
<v Speaker 3>have this job, then I'm meant to leave and everything.

1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:25.360
<v Speaker 3>And so that was in the back of my mind.

1:04:25.520 --> 1:04:30.240
<v Speaker 3>And the thing that I really solidified it is one

1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:33.760
<v Speaker 3>night I was couldn't sleep and I'll let people know

1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:36.520
<v Speaker 3>I was popping nine ten minut drill Night Justice sleep

1:04:36.600 --> 1:04:40.040
<v Speaker 3>because I whoa, yeah, I could not sleep there. It

1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:44.280
<v Speaker 3>was awful. And I came out and I was like

1:04:45.200 --> 1:04:48.680
<v Speaker 3>I'm not happy here. I need to go and everything,

1:04:48.760 --> 1:04:53.280
<v Speaker 3>and he goes, well, you're not happy here. She just

1:04:53.360 --> 1:04:56.160
<v Speaker 3>had more sex with Jeremy. And I can teach you.

1:04:56.360 --> 1:04:57.880
<v Speaker 3>I can teach you how oh.

1:04:57.720 --> 1:04:59.560
<v Speaker 2>My god, what a creep.

1:05:00.120 --> 1:05:04.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and that I was like, I need to get out.

1:05:04.440 --> 1:05:07.240
<v Speaker 3>I need to get out. I don't know how. I

1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:10.120
<v Speaker 3>am terrified, but I need to get out. And for

1:05:10.200 --> 1:05:13.160
<v Speaker 3>me getting out was still, Let's find an apartment, let's

1:05:13.160 --> 1:05:16.720
<v Speaker 3>find a job, let's do still okay, I still want

1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:20.440
<v Speaker 3>to pease them and have Jeremy be close enough and everything,

1:05:21.200 --> 1:05:23.160
<v Speaker 3>but I need to get out and now.

1:05:23.280 --> 1:05:25.120
<v Speaker 1>And did you find I mean you, It sounds like

1:05:25.160 --> 1:05:29.480
<v Speaker 1>you got the job in PA maybe and then ended up.

1:05:29.920 --> 1:05:32.760
<v Speaker 3>So that's an interesting story. I came down for my

1:05:32.800 --> 1:05:36.640
<v Speaker 3>best friend's engagement party, and people knew down here in

1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:42.000
<v Speaker 3>PA life wasn't great, that I was not happy. But

1:05:42.160 --> 1:05:45.680
<v Speaker 3>that weekend I started letting the truth out, telling people

1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:49.760
<v Speaker 3>how awful it was, telling my parents how awful it

1:05:49.880 --> 1:05:53.400
<v Speaker 3>was that I am thirteen thousand dollars now in debt.

1:05:54.200 --> 1:05:57.280
<v Speaker 3>This is all the crap, like there's no running it

1:05:57.360 --> 1:05:59.840
<v Speaker 3>look like I can't flush the toilet. They're the running

1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:02.720
<v Speaker 3>or I can't drink like all this things. And my

1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:06.160
<v Speaker 3>parents were like, you're staying You're not going back home,

1:06:06.880 --> 1:06:09.680
<v Speaker 3>and not everyone's parents is able to do this, and

1:06:09.720 --> 1:06:12.440
<v Speaker 3>not everyone's stories is like this. But my parents were like,

1:06:12.480 --> 1:06:14.920
<v Speaker 3>we're taking the thirteen thousand dollars and paying that off.

1:06:14.920 --> 1:06:18.680
<v Speaker 3>You pay off cutting that off. We will figure out

1:06:18.680 --> 1:06:21.200
<v Speaker 3>how to go get your stuff, we will figure out

1:06:21.520 --> 1:06:24.520
<v Speaker 3>how to get up there, but you're staying here. And

1:06:25.120 --> 1:06:26.720
<v Speaker 3>about a few weeks later is when I got the

1:06:26.800 --> 1:06:28.160
<v Speaker 3>job I currently have right now.

1:06:28.640 --> 1:06:29.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

1:06:29.400 --> 1:06:30.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah.

1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:34.160
<v Speaker 1>And it was in PA And did you ever see

1:06:34.160 --> 1:06:36.360
<v Speaker 1>any of these people again or was it that this

1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:38.320
<v Speaker 1>was kind of hard face?

1:06:38.640 --> 1:06:41.560
<v Speaker 3>I still saw them a little bit over Skype because

1:06:42.120 --> 1:06:46.280
<v Speaker 3>even though I knew I was safe, I knew this

1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:49.560
<v Speaker 3>is where I need to be. I that fall was

1:06:49.600 --> 1:06:52.920
<v Speaker 3>still there, the work souid, the brain mush and everything

1:06:52.960 --> 1:06:57.360
<v Speaker 3>that was still there. So it was slowly coming out

1:06:57.400 --> 1:07:00.760
<v Speaker 3>of that and being like switching wrong voice to my

1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:05.240
<v Speaker 3>voice again because every time I would hear Ron's voice,

1:07:05.520 --> 1:07:07.640
<v Speaker 3>hear him in the back of my mind and I

1:07:07.720 --> 1:07:12.120
<v Speaker 3>had to switch that. So jumping back into therapy, really

1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:14.480
<v Speaker 3>sharing the truth of all the crap I was in

1:07:14.600 --> 1:07:17.520
<v Speaker 3>at about A year later is when I fully cut

1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:18.560
<v Speaker 3>off contact with them.

1:07:19.320 --> 1:07:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Wow, yeah, and did you still feel like you loved Jeremy?

1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Like what was how did that resolve?

1:07:26.680 --> 1:07:29.600
<v Speaker 3>So that I did? I very much did, and no

1:07:29.640 --> 1:07:32.400
<v Speaker 3>one knew that I were in the long half. It

1:07:32.440 --> 1:07:35.320
<v Speaker 3>wasn't until the day someone drove up there to get

1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:38.760
<v Speaker 3>some of my stuff that I finally had the guts

1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:42.080
<v Speaker 3>to tell them I'm not coming back. And it was

1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:45.440
<v Speaker 3>the family yeah, and it was yeah, and create the

1:07:45.440 --> 1:07:48.760
<v Speaker 3>people with in crazing Land. And it was under the

1:07:48.800 --> 1:07:53.800
<v Speaker 3>guides of I'm not happy. My mind like, my mind's

1:07:53.840 --> 1:07:58.680
<v Speaker 3>breaking down. I didn't have the terminology to say, I'm

1:07:58.840 --> 1:08:02.280
<v Speaker 3>in a high control group. This is wrong, this is

1:08:02.440 --> 1:08:08.000
<v Speaker 3>all wrong. But I was kind of hiding exactly some

1:08:08.080 --> 1:08:10.400
<v Speaker 3>of what I was feeling. And I wanted him out too.

1:08:10.920 --> 1:08:12.760
<v Speaker 3>I wanted him to come with me because I did

1:08:12.840 --> 1:08:15.960
<v Speaker 3>love him. I did care about those that little girl

1:08:16.080 --> 1:08:18.040
<v Speaker 3>like it's like I can I have my cake and

1:08:18.080 --> 1:08:20.960
<v Speaker 3>eat it too? But when I saw that he was

1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:23.960
<v Speaker 3>not willing to budge, He's like, I'm never moving out

1:08:23.960 --> 1:08:28.240
<v Speaker 3>of state. I Am never. I was like, Okay, I

1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:31.719
<v Speaker 3>care too much about myself that there's someone out there

1:08:32.160 --> 1:08:34.439
<v Speaker 3>who will care for me, who will fight for my

1:08:34.479 --> 1:08:36.960
<v Speaker 3>mental health, who will fight for us to be together,

1:08:37.560 --> 1:08:41.479
<v Speaker 3>that it's not us anymore. There are better things on

1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:42.280
<v Speaker 3>the horizon for me.

1:08:42.520 --> 1:08:45.240
<v Speaker 4>Wow, I mean huge, hugely for you.

1:08:45.640 --> 1:08:51.320
<v Speaker 1>And about your draw to like, uh second life games,

1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:52.880
<v Speaker 1>did that ever come back or.

1:08:54.320 --> 1:08:56.960
<v Speaker 3>A little bit? I shook my head there, but I

1:08:57.000 --> 1:08:58.840
<v Speaker 3>was like a little bit. I mean I still have

1:08:58.920 --> 1:09:02.800
<v Speaker 3>a draw out to fantasy. But this is why, like

1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:05.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm out on aish social media. I won't ever get

1:09:05.840 --> 1:09:10.439
<v Speaker 3>back on social media because even though like Facebook is

1:09:10.520 --> 1:09:14.320
<v Speaker 3>great and of itself, I compare myself to there's way much. Yeah,

1:09:14.439 --> 1:09:18.960
<v Speaker 3>that's what starts the discontentment. So instead I am putting

1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:21.200
<v Speaker 3>like like I said, I'll always be into fantasy, but

1:09:21.320 --> 1:09:25.000
<v Speaker 3>putting that drive into writing into like I now play

1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:28.200
<v Speaker 3>Dungeons and Dragons. So if a little bit of fantasy,

1:09:28.240 --> 1:09:30.160
<v Speaker 3>but it's in a constructive way.

1:09:30.600 --> 1:09:31.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:09:31.720 --> 1:09:33.559
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna say, if Ron would just take all

1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:38.360
<v Speaker 1>this energy of like my aunts in the circus and

1:09:38.439 --> 1:09:40.120
<v Speaker 1>write a fucking book.

1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:42.759
<v Speaker 2>Maybe instead of controlling people.

1:09:43.840 --> 1:09:45.120
<v Speaker 4>It's like wild.

1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is interesting how many cult leaders do actually write,

1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:51.320
<v Speaker 2>that's true, write a.

1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:54.439
<v Speaker 1>Fantasy novel or I mean he sounds like he's a

1:09:55.240 --> 1:09:58.240
<v Speaker 1>This is all like a sexual predator game at the

1:09:58.280 --> 1:10:01.120
<v Speaker 1>end of the day, and Harry Potter is not going

1:10:01.160 --> 1:10:06.080
<v Speaker 1>to fix any of it. But you know, really there

1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:10.080
<v Speaker 1>has to be more outlets than yeah, just controlling a

1:10:10.120 --> 1:10:12.400
<v Speaker 1>group of people with one toilet.

1:10:12.680 --> 1:10:15.160
<v Speaker 3>Like when I came out, I did blow off the

1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:18.479
<v Speaker 3>roof of that place, because eventually a year later I

1:10:18.560 --> 1:10:23.200
<v Speaker 3>called CPS on these people. I was like, if even

1:10:23.200 --> 1:10:25.200
<v Speaker 3>though I'm not in contact those kids, I want to

1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:27.719
<v Speaker 3>know at least I tried to do something for these kids. Yeah,

1:10:27.800 --> 1:10:31.719
<v Speaker 3>so I did call in everything, and at that time

1:10:31.960 --> 1:10:35.320
<v Speaker 3>I still was kind of connected to people on the

1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:38.360
<v Speaker 3>outside who weren't in that group, who lived around that area,

1:10:38.800 --> 1:10:41.920
<v Speaker 3>and they're like, oh yeah, they came. CCS came and

1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:45.960
<v Speaker 3>people started moving out. Well fast forward to last year

1:10:47.560 --> 1:10:51.080
<v Speaker 3>twenty January twenty twenty four, where a whole new layer

1:10:51.120 --> 1:10:53.840
<v Speaker 3>of stuff happened and that I found out what was

1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:57.160
<v Speaker 3>going on up there, and this is where it was hit.

1:10:57.280 --> 1:10:59.080
<v Speaker 3>There was a nail on the coffin and like, this

1:10:59.120 --> 1:11:01.519
<v Speaker 3>is a high control groo, this is a cult. He

1:11:01.720 --> 1:11:06.720
<v Speaker 3>started bringing new people in. YEP. I was like right

1:11:06.760 --> 1:11:10.280
<v Speaker 3>there that new people are coming in new kids are

1:11:10.320 --> 1:11:15.360
<v Speaker 3>coming in like it. Yep. He could only last on

1:11:15.400 --> 1:11:16.919
<v Speaker 3>his own for so long.

1:11:17.240 --> 1:11:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, yep. Wow. I mean I'm glad that the kids

1:11:21.000 --> 1:11:25.000
<v Speaker 2>that were there hopefully moved somewhere a little bit better,

1:11:25.080 --> 1:11:28.280
<v Speaker 2>but that that's so sad that more ended up with him.

1:11:28.960 --> 1:11:32.120
<v Speaker 2>So okay, I just I want to just go back

1:11:32.160 --> 1:11:34.040
<v Speaker 2>to what we were talking about a second ago, because

1:11:34.040 --> 1:11:37.280
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about the difference between engaging with fantasy in

1:11:37.320 --> 1:11:41.680
<v Speaker 2>a way that's like constructive and healthy versus not, And

1:11:41.720 --> 1:11:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I wonder how you would articulate what that difference is.

1:11:46.880 --> 1:11:51.080
<v Speaker 3>So for me, it's when I start getting so sucked in.

1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:54.479
<v Speaker 3>I start and I mean, I'm sure people have a

1:11:54.600 --> 1:11:58.240
<v Speaker 3>vision who have an active imagination have this that they

1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:00.320
<v Speaker 3>when they read a book, Like when I read a book,

1:12:00.360 --> 1:12:04.320
<v Speaker 3>I see everything, I feel what the characters feel. But

1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:08.120
<v Speaker 3>when I start going off the deep end of reading plotline,

1:12:08.640 --> 1:12:10.880
<v Speaker 3>like oh if I made this character to fit in here,

1:12:11.520 --> 1:12:15.639
<v Speaker 3>and I am so immersed that I realize, oh, I'm

1:12:15.680 --> 1:12:18.759
<v Speaker 3>not connecting face to face with these people. I haven't

1:12:18.800 --> 1:12:22.120
<v Speaker 3>really reached out with my real friend right face to

1:12:22.160 --> 1:12:26.080
<v Speaker 3>face friends. I have not texted my boyfriend and say, hey,

1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:28.960
<v Speaker 3>can you get together? This weekend. When I start dropping

1:12:29.000 --> 1:12:31.599
<v Speaker 3>off and not doing touch points and meeting with people,

1:12:32.280 --> 1:12:35.920
<v Speaker 3>that's when I go, Hmm, what's going on underneath that?

1:12:36.560 --> 1:12:39.480
<v Speaker 3>Why am I feeling the need to pool away, isolate

1:12:39.560 --> 1:12:43.040
<v Speaker 3>from my real life and dive and curl up deep

1:12:43.080 --> 1:12:44.400
<v Speaker 3>into these fantasies.

1:12:44.720 --> 1:12:45.479
<v Speaker 2>What's the answer.

1:12:45.560 --> 1:12:50.160
<v Speaker 3>Usually at usually i find I'm like, well, one I

1:12:50.600 --> 1:12:54.559
<v Speaker 3>the seasonal depression bad gets sense of this time I

1:12:54.680 --> 1:12:58.479
<v Speaker 3>really got to be mindful, and it's realizing I haven't

1:12:58.520 --> 1:13:01.679
<v Speaker 3>reached out. I've been so focused on me and what's

1:13:01.720 --> 1:13:04.679
<v Speaker 3>going on in my life, which is that it's good

1:13:04.680 --> 1:13:07.160
<v Speaker 3>to be aware and I want people to know there

1:13:07.280 --> 1:13:09.519
<v Speaker 3>is the aspect that you've got to be emotionally aware

1:13:09.520 --> 1:13:11.360
<v Speaker 3>of what's going on in your life. But when I'm

1:13:11.640 --> 1:13:16.360
<v Speaker 3>so inward so focus on this is bad, this is bad,

1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:20.080
<v Speaker 3>this is bad, and that echoes in my mind that

1:13:20.120 --> 1:13:23.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm not looking out and saying, huh, have I connected

1:13:23.600 --> 1:13:28.599
<v Speaker 3>with Susie because she's going through something too, and I'm

1:13:28.600 --> 1:13:30.840
<v Speaker 3>not doing real life with her word instead of just

1:13:30.960 --> 1:13:34.679
<v Speaker 3>me alone in the mud pit, it's like, hey, we're

1:13:34.720 --> 1:13:37.439
<v Speaker 3>in this together, let's talk about this together. And then

1:13:37.479 --> 1:13:39.400
<v Speaker 3>it brings us out of it, like Okay, now that

1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:42.400
<v Speaker 3>we talk about, let's go for a walk, Let's be active,

1:13:42.720 --> 1:13:45.880
<v Speaker 3>let's do a life together, Let's have these let's get

1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:49.200
<v Speaker 3>let me get out of my mind and connect with

1:13:49.280 --> 1:13:52.960
<v Speaker 3>someone and say, hey, I'm really struggling with X, Y

1:13:53.000 --> 1:13:56.040
<v Speaker 3>and Z. Are you share that with me and we

1:13:56.080 --> 1:13:58.800
<v Speaker 3>can do this together. Because life is hard, but we're

1:13:58.840 --> 1:14:01.519
<v Speaker 3>meant to be in a community, a face to face

1:14:01.640 --> 1:14:04.120
<v Speaker 3>community with humans. That's what we're meant to do.

1:14:04.600 --> 1:14:09.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, amen, A community that's healthy, that does not feed

1:14:09.720 --> 1:14:12.320
<v Speaker 1>the ego of one person exactly.

1:14:12.479 --> 1:14:15.240
<v Speaker 2>There's not one soul leader who makes all of the

1:14:15.360 --> 1:14:17.040
<v Speaker 2>decisions exactly.

1:14:17.439 --> 1:14:19.720
<v Speaker 3>And I realized that a lot of people struggle with

1:14:19.760 --> 1:14:22.120
<v Speaker 3>the same thing I do, and they're just looking to

1:14:22.240 --> 1:14:24.599
<v Speaker 3>voice it too. It's just that person coming along saying

1:14:24.920 --> 1:14:29.800
<v Speaker 3>I see you and man, today stuck, this was hard. Yeah,

1:14:29.880 --> 1:14:32.400
<v Speaker 3>let me help you in the stuckiness. Let's sit in this,

1:14:33.040 --> 1:14:36.200
<v Speaker 3>let's talk about it, Let's let the emotions out the

1:14:36.320 --> 1:14:38.479
<v Speaker 3>let's go do something. I can just be a simple

1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:41.200
<v Speaker 3>walk because I know when I've been in midst of

1:14:41.200 --> 1:14:43.120
<v Speaker 3>my deep depression, I don't want to do anything but

1:14:43.200 --> 1:14:46.479
<v Speaker 3>just that simple walk in the sun or something, it

1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:50.800
<v Speaker 3>changes everything. It's like, Okay, now I can get through

1:14:50.800 --> 1:14:52.160
<v Speaker 3>a day a little bit more so.

1:14:53.120 --> 1:14:58.440
<v Speaker 1>Damn, I'm so impressed you've you've been on the hero's journey.

1:14:58.840 --> 1:15:02.679
<v Speaker 3>It's therapy, it's I'm so grateful to my therapist long

1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:06.280
<v Speaker 3>for the depailing she has allowed pushed me to do.

1:15:07.000 --> 1:15:09.000
<v Speaker 3>And it's been hard. I don't want people to think

1:15:09.080 --> 1:15:13.360
<v Speaker 3>like every day is great. I still I'm still shocked

1:15:13.400 --> 1:15:17.280
<v Speaker 3>about how I run into some things I can. I'm like, whoa, whoa,

1:15:17.360 --> 1:15:20.960
<v Speaker 3>that really landed heavy, that triggered something? Why? And there's

1:15:21.000 --> 1:15:23.799
<v Speaker 3>another layer, there's another layer, like I'm sure you guys

1:15:24.320 --> 1:15:26.479
<v Speaker 3>have seen that in your own recovery. That it's just

1:15:26.760 --> 1:15:30.000
<v Speaker 3>it's a never ending journey to be willing to face

1:15:30.080 --> 1:15:34.080
<v Speaker 3>that and that stuff it and not use something to

1:15:34.120 --> 1:15:36.200
<v Speaker 3>cover it up totally.

1:15:36.880 --> 1:15:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do you have any final thoughts, lessons, words of wisdom.

1:15:44.320 --> 1:15:47.559
<v Speaker 3>My words, oh, wisdom would be just what my dad said,

1:15:48.520 --> 1:15:52.640
<v Speaker 3>if you're if for anyone who's listening out there, who's like,

1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:55.280
<v Speaker 3>this doesn't feel right, and it doesn't have to be

1:15:55.600 --> 1:15:58.679
<v Speaker 3>a high control group, it doesn't have to be a cult.

1:15:58.880 --> 1:16:03.599
<v Speaker 3>If you're in relationship, whatever it might be, just stop

1:16:04.120 --> 1:16:08.120
<v Speaker 3>ask questions and listen and observe. Yes, just observe, and

1:16:08.520 --> 1:16:13.400
<v Speaker 3>be willing to go out and just say. And it

1:16:13.479 --> 1:16:16.840
<v Speaker 3>takes a lot of courage and give yourself grace as

1:16:16.880 --> 1:16:20.400
<v Speaker 3>you're walking this journey of recovery or getting out. It

1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:26.360
<v Speaker 3>is hard, but be willing to start trusting that voice

1:16:26.800 --> 1:16:30.840
<v Speaker 3>and go to someone and say and just start building

1:16:30.840 --> 1:16:34.880
<v Speaker 3>a relationship and go, hey, I need help. However that

1:16:34.960 --> 1:16:38.120
<v Speaker 3>looks for you, however that turns those words will for you.

1:16:38.920 --> 1:16:41.360
<v Speaker 3>Be willing to do that and give yourself grace. Like

1:16:41.400 --> 1:16:43.840
<v Speaker 3>I said, as it is a bumpy road, there will

1:16:43.880 --> 1:16:46.040
<v Speaker 3>be times you want to go back. I wanted to

1:16:46.080 --> 1:16:49.720
<v Speaker 3>go back, and that's okay. That is okay. We are

1:16:49.760 --> 1:16:52.080
<v Speaker 3>messy people. You make mistakes and it's okay.

1:16:52.560 --> 1:16:55.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I love that. I'm so glad you mentioned the

1:16:55.920 --> 1:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>questions thing again because I because I did mean to

1:16:58.360 --> 1:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>bring that up and I forgot. It's just just that

1:17:02.120 --> 1:17:05.720
<v Speaker 2>simple thing of allowing yourself to think the unthinkable or

1:17:05.800 --> 1:17:10.040
<v Speaker 2>ask a question that you know maybe you're not supposed

1:17:10.040 --> 1:17:14.240
<v Speaker 2>to getting curious. Like we just see over and over

1:17:14.280 --> 1:17:17.360
<v Speaker 2>and over again, that really is the difference between someone

1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:20.200
<v Speaker 2>who is indoctrinated and somebody who is not. Is being

1:17:21.080 --> 1:17:24.040
<v Speaker 2>allowing yourself to ask the questions, even if it's just inward,

1:17:24.320 --> 1:17:27.240
<v Speaker 2>just to yourself. Yep, you know, to go to those

1:17:27.280 --> 1:17:31.320
<v Speaker 2>scary parts and be curious. That can be the thing.

1:17:31.720 --> 1:17:32.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that you need.

1:17:33.720 --> 1:17:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for talking to us and for

1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:38.479
<v Speaker 2>reaching out to us. I'm so grateful that you shared

1:17:38.479 --> 1:17:40.320
<v Speaker 2>this story with us. It's so unique and I think

1:17:40.320 --> 1:17:42.639
<v Speaker 2>people will relate to it in a new way, which

1:17:42.680 --> 1:17:43.160
<v Speaker 2>is amazing.

1:17:43.720 --> 1:17:46.479
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for having me on here if

1:17:47.040 --> 1:17:48.400
<v Speaker 3>I feel honor to be on here.

1:17:49.280 --> 1:17:51.559
<v Speaker 2>Major thanks to Tori, who is a listener of the show,

1:17:51.640 --> 1:17:55.000
<v Speaker 2>for calling in with that story. I am so glad

1:17:55.000 --> 1:17:57.240
<v Speaker 2>that she did. Other fellow listeners, we'd love to hear

1:17:57.280 --> 1:18:00.480
<v Speaker 2>from you as well. Megan, what is your big takeaway

1:18:00.760 --> 1:18:03.479
<v Speaker 2>from Tory's story? Which is really fun phrase to say.

1:18:03.680 --> 1:18:07.479
<v Speaker 1>I think that it's mostly just how we live in

1:18:07.520 --> 1:18:10.519
<v Speaker 1>a society that is not meeting our needs to the

1:18:10.600 --> 1:18:13.599
<v Speaker 1>extent that things such as these and are not cults,

1:18:13.600 --> 1:18:21.040
<v Speaker 1>are second life or all these multitude of apps, games, whatever,

1:18:21.280 --> 1:18:23.120
<v Speaker 1>are able to kind of take a hold of us.

1:18:23.160 --> 1:18:24.240
<v Speaker 4>And it makes perfect sense.

1:18:24.760 --> 1:18:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, we we're in the midst of a

1:18:26.600 --> 1:18:31.040
<v Speaker 2>loneliness crisis since everyone is you know, well aware on

1:18:31.120 --> 1:18:35.840
<v Speaker 2>technology and looking to technolo, which can be great for

1:18:35.880 --> 1:18:39.400
<v Speaker 2>helping but also can be even more isolating. And I

1:18:39.439 --> 1:18:44.320
<v Speaker 2>know we've talked about loneliness before and how we've experienced it,

1:18:44.360 --> 1:18:46.960
<v Speaker 2>and it is amazing how you can really like, you

1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:48.800
<v Speaker 2>can have people in your life, you can have friends,

1:18:48.840 --> 1:18:50.559
<v Speaker 2>you can have a partner, and you can still feel

1:18:50.600 --> 1:18:54.680
<v Speaker 2>really lonely. And that, of course is going to lead

1:18:54.760 --> 1:18:57.720
<v Speaker 2>so many of us to want to seek out community

1:18:58.120 --> 1:19:01.120
<v Speaker 2>in whatever form we can find it, people who understand

1:19:01.200 --> 1:19:05.000
<v Speaker 2>us and make us feel heard and like we're not weirdohs.

1:19:06.400 --> 1:19:09.559
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, we live in an era now where it's

1:19:09.600 --> 1:19:13.800
<v Speaker 2>just so much easier for that to be preyed upon, unfortunately,

1:19:14.120 --> 1:19:15.360
<v Speaker 2>but we still need community.

1:19:15.560 --> 1:19:17.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, I know.

1:19:17.640 --> 1:19:19.600
<v Speaker 2>They can be really meaningful and they are for so

1:19:19.760 --> 1:19:22.920
<v Speaker 2>many people. It's just also important to make sure we're

1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:26.679
<v Speaker 2>connecting with ourselves, with our bodies, with people in real

1:19:26.720 --> 1:19:29.920
<v Speaker 2>life as much as we can, because it's just a different.

1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Experience, yea being in nature, Yeah, it's important. She seems

1:19:34.439 --> 1:19:39.519
<v Speaker 1>like she's really found a happy medium, middle ground where yeah, yeah,

1:19:39.680 --> 1:19:40.680
<v Speaker 1>it was impressed.

1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:44.000
<v Speaker 2>A healthy way of engaging in fantasy and yeah.

1:19:43.760 --> 1:19:47.599
<v Speaker 1>Totally, well thanks Tory, Thank you Toy, and thank you

1:19:47.760 --> 1:19:49.920
<v Speaker 1>listeners for spending another week with us.

1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:50.720
<v Speaker 4>If you want to.

1:19:50.720 --> 1:19:53.240
<v Speaker 1>Give us a little gift for the holidays, please go

1:19:53.360 --> 1:19:54.840
<v Speaker 1>rate us five stars.

1:19:54.479 --> 1:19:55.879
<v Speaker 4>And leave us a positive review.

1:19:56.240 --> 1:19:58.360
<v Speaker 1>If you don't want to leave us five stars, don't

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<v Speaker 1>leave a review at all. Gross who wants to do that?

1:20:01.800 --> 1:20:04.479
<v Speaker 1>And as always, remember to follow your.

1:20:04.320 --> 1:20:06.880
<v Speaker 4>Gut, watch out for red flax.

1:20:06.760 --> 1:20:15.519
<v Speaker 2>And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me as produced

1:20:15.520 --> 1:20:18.720
<v Speaker 2>by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1:20:18.360 --> 1:20:20.280
<v Speaker 4>With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1:20:20.200 --> 1:20:22.639
<v Speaker 2>And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1:20:22.840 --> 1:20:25.720
<v Speaker 1>You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1:20:25.920 --> 1:20:29.240
<v Speaker 1>Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:31.000
<v Speaker 1>trust Me Cult Podcast.

1:20:31.160 --> 1:20:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1:20:34.240 --> 1:20:37.800
<v Speaker 1>And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1:20:38.000 --> 1:20:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Hicks on Twitter.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember to rate and review and spread the word.