Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust me.
Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4: I've never lived.
Speaker 2: To you never If you think that one person has
Speaker 2: all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast
Speaker 2: about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two fantasizers who've
Speaker 2: actually experienced it.
Speaker 4: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: Today our guest is Tory, former member of a small
Speaker 2: rural group in upstate New York that she calls crazy Land.
Speaker 2: She's gonna tell us about how she always loved reading
Speaker 2: and fantasy growing up, never went to public school, and
Speaker 2: didn't connect easily with folks in real life when she
Speaker 2: was young, and how she found her human connection in
Speaker 2: the online community of the game Second Life, where she
Speaker 2: could act out her dream of having a family of
Speaker 2: her own until it began to consume her life.
Speaker 1: She'll tell us how some of the friends she made
Speaker 1: on there eventually convinced her that she was spending too
Speaker 1: much time on the game and that she should come
Speaker 1: live with them in upstate New York.
Speaker 4: In Crazyland.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about how thirteen people were living in one
Speaker 1: trailer with extremely uncomfortable living conditions like one toilet for
Speaker 1: all those people, but how it also fulfilled her desire
Speaker 1: for a family to take care of.
Speaker 4: At least at first.
Speaker 2: We'll get into who the leader of Ron was, the
Speaker 2: financial and sexual abuse that he was committing, how he
Speaker 2: isolated her from her parents, and how she finally got out.
Speaker 2: Torri's story is amazing, she is. It's such a modern
Speaker 2: tale of how one can end up in a cult.
Speaker 2: It makes it super interesting for me personally, hopefully for
Speaker 2: y'all too. Before we jump in, what is your culture
Speaker 2: thing of the week.
Speaker 1: Well, I've been watching the HBO docuseries Breath of Fire,
Speaker 1: which is about Kundalini yoga.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you've seen it yet. Heavier you
Speaker 4: look a little like you not? Okay? Great?
Speaker 1: So essentially it's about this woman whose name was Katie,
Speaker 1: but she became Gurujhaga and her rise to the top
Speaker 1: of Kundalini and Los Angeles and the world. And it
Speaker 1: hit super close to home because I lived with one
Speaker 1: of my really good friends who was taking her classes
Speaker 1: all over the time, who started studying Kundalini. A lot
Speaker 1: of the people I was hanging out with or some
Speaker 1: of the authors I liked, were getting certified to teach it,
Speaker 1: and I felt really lazy for not wanting to do it.
Speaker 4: Cadalini yoga is like so hard.
Speaker 1: You would sit for an hour and a half and
Speaker 1: these yoga classes that you know would have cool celebrities
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and just have your hands above
Speaker 1: your head for the whole class.
Speaker 4: I can barely lift a hand.
Speaker 1: In general, and so I would be like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do these classes. I don't really like it.
Speaker 1: But I always had this sense in the back of
Speaker 1: my head. I was like, well, because you're too lazy
Speaker 1: to do it. But now as it is exposed for
Speaker 1: the cult that it is, I'm like, damn, it sometimes
Speaker 1: comes in handy to not be an overachiever.
Speaker 2: So true, because.
Speaker 1: This shit got really crazy, it got really abusive. Spoiler alert,
Speaker 1: she is the Guru is dead. It's such a mess
Speaker 1: and it's heartbreaking, and I knew some of the people
Speaker 1: in the doc, and it just it's really unnerving because
Speaker 1: I was essentially kind of in it.
Speaker 2: I thought it was.
Speaker 1: Real and there is something about Kundlim like I believe
Speaker 1: in Chakras, So it was something that I was very
Speaker 1: close to and it's kind of freaking me out. The
Speaker 1: doc is really good and I recommend everybody watch it.
Speaker 2: I will watch it. I'm so behind on all the docks.
Speaker 2: I really want to watch the Stanford prison experiment one too,
Speaker 2: which you know we kind of already I think have
Speaker 2: talked about on this podcast that that was debunked a bit,
Speaker 2: and it was the researcher was kind of misleading people
Speaker 2: as to what actually happened there. But I've not watched
Speaker 2: it yet, so I want to see all the tea
Speaker 2: and get all the details. But I have nothing to
Speaker 2: say about it because I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker 4: Oh watch it. What about you?
Speaker 1: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?
Speaker 2: Living in America?
Speaker 4: Can you believe in America.
Speaker 2: The election happened? Obviously, everyone's going to have really strong
Speaker 2: opinions about that one way or another. I think everyone's
Speaker 2: pretty clear on where I'm at with that, but I
Speaker 2: just feel like it's important to mention that, you know,
Speaker 2: we're going to be really divided these next four years,
Speaker 2: hopefully only four years, and it's going to be really
Speaker 2: tempting to want to just yell at each other and
Speaker 2: cut off people in our life who who have different
Speaker 2: views than us, views maybe we even and think are abhorrent.
Speaker 2: But as we learn over and over again on this show,
Speaker 2: it's not really an effective tactic to just kind of
Speaker 2: yell at people and attack them and cut them off.
Speaker 2: And if you really do want to ever like get
Speaker 2: through to someone or reach them or get them to
Speaker 2: hear your perspective, it can be really important to do
Speaker 2: something we talk about in this episode actually, which is
Speaker 2: get curious and ask questions and try to stay connected
Speaker 2: as best you can, even when yeah, there's to try.
Speaker 1: To stay connected on topics that there's common ground on,
Speaker 1: and then you know, ask little questions here and there
Speaker 1: so you can understand where they're coming from. But if
Speaker 1: the relationship isn't hurting you, then try to keep it alive, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, obviously it's different if somebody is verbally abusing
Speaker 2: you or like just crediting your existence in some way,
Speaker 2: but otherwise my understanding of the world. People might disagree,
Speaker 2: but is that everyone whose views we think are abhorrent
Speaker 2: from their perspective, given their experience, is given the information
Speaker 2: they've exposed to, makes sense to them as being reasonable.
Speaker 2: And most people, some people obviously we know are are
Speaker 2: actually just straight up racist. But most people I think
Speaker 2: like have their worldview for a reason and it's not
Speaker 2: going to change when you yell at them. That's all. Yep.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Thanksgivings coming up. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of us are going home. So God's speed to
Speaker 1: all of us on every level of just you know,
Speaker 1: making it through and keeping connections alive despite our differences,
Speaker 1: because it's important.
Speaker 2: Indeed, should we get to the interview.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, let's talk to Tory.
Speaker 2: Welcome Tori to trust me. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining us.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: We have so many questions for you. It's such a
Speaker 2: unique story. Okay, So first, can you just tell us
Speaker 2: what your childhood was like and what kind of your
Speaker 2: understanding of community and religion and such was.
Speaker 3: Sure I grew up in evangelical Christian home and everything.
Speaker 3: So community was definitely surrounded by church, and my church
Speaker 3: at that time was very small, so it was very
Speaker 3: inward us focused, not outward. So a lot of my
Speaker 3: childhood was friends from church. Homeschooled as well then like
Speaker 3: around third grade, much of a private Christian school, so church
Speaker 3: like community shifted then. And I I'm a one of
Speaker 3: seven kids, big family, so that was also like growing up,
Speaker 3: I just felt very outcast in my family, like I
Speaker 3: didn't belong and there was something wrong with me that
Speaker 3: I did not fit in. I was not enough. I
Speaker 3: very much from a young age. My mom would say
Speaker 3: I had a huge fantasy mind. I was fantasy oriented.
Speaker 3: I read a lot, so my mind was outward like
Speaker 3: inward but outward at the same time, like not in
Speaker 3: the real world type of thing. And so it's very
Speaker 3: hard for me to relate to people, rebate to friends,
Speaker 3: especially since I didn't go to a public school. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I never went to a public like brick and mortar
Speaker 3: public school. It was always homeschool with private Christian school.
Speaker 3: Graduated from a cyber school, so didn't have those friendships
Speaker 3: that most people have growing up.
Speaker 1: What type of books were you reading, because for me,
Speaker 1: it was like Sweet Valley High.
Speaker 4: Babysitters Club. Were you were you also there?
Speaker 2: I was going to say Harry Potter.
Speaker 3: I was. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. Yeah, powder
Speaker 3: fan still for the day, okay Potter, Sweet Dot High
Speaker 3: of course, more Angles, wid Yeah, everything, It'sycopleedia Brown, the
Speaker 3: Treehouse Club.
Speaker 2: The box Car Kids, the box Car Children.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Okay, now we're just naming every book.
Speaker 1: Well, I really relate to that, and it set up
Speaker 1: some of your story later. So yeah, okay, yeah, you're
Speaker 1: like kind of living in your hat a little bit
Speaker 1: through some books.
Speaker 2: What era was this, Like, what year did you graduate?
Speaker 3: I graduated two thousand and nine. So I also grew
Speaker 3: up in late nineties early two thousands where the Internet
Speaker 3: was coming live. So because it was hard for me
Speaker 3: to relate face to face, the computer set up a
Speaker 3: lot of my relationships, right, like chat rooms, AOL and
Speaker 3: Semessenger for those. Yeah, you don't know that. Like grew
Speaker 3: up with that looking for my people because I felt
Speaker 3: like I have my people here in real life.
Speaker 2: Oh this is okay. I'm so glad you're here talking
Speaker 2: to us, because this is such a particular type of
Speaker 2: isolation that I feel like we don't really get to
Speaker 2: hear about that much, but it's so so, so common,
Speaker 2: and I relate to it a lot. Like I was
Speaker 2: homeschooled for part of high school as well. I graduated
Speaker 2: from homeschool, and I spent all of my hours on
Speaker 2: the internet, all of them.
Speaker 4: I know you both had wild MySpace page.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's all I'm saying. Oh yeah, you were
Speaker 2: very glary.
Speaker 4: Yeah your signature, that's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 3: If I was mad at you. You're not my top
Speaker 3: eight friend.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Oh.
Speaker 2: My god, that is definitely so. How old were you
Speaker 2: I guess when you discovered Second life? And how did
Speaker 2: you discover second life?
Speaker 3: So before I get into second life, I always also
Speaker 3: did online role playing through Zanga, the online journal blog.
Speaker 3: So I created these narratives for many different characters I
Speaker 3: would get a plot line from, like the Harry Potter series.
Speaker 3: I create a character to fit into the Harry Potter series.
Speaker 3: So really creating this fantasy mind setting that up in
Speaker 3: my head, continue that well into high school, early college change.
Speaker 3: I want to say about twenty three, twenty four something
Speaker 3: like that, when the role playing with Era was ending,
Speaker 3: people didn't want to do anymore. Friend I met on there,
Speaker 3: It's like, hey, I have this sight called Second Life.
Speaker 3: It's this game that like role playing come to life,
Speaker 3: is how she explained it to me. You can make it.
Speaker 3: Second Life is that online avatar game. You can make
Speaker 3: it as real as you want or as much as
Speaker 3: the game as you want. I dove in it headfirst
Speaker 3: and made it literally my second life.
Speaker 2: Okay. I played Second Life like a couple of times
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh. I was like, there's no
Speaker 2: way I can keep playing this because this will destroy
Speaker 2: my entire life.
Speaker 1: Can you guys give me some I have not yet
Speaker 1: been on Second Life. I might join it now after
Speaker 1: this conversation, but.
Speaker 3: Like, careful, yeah, I can sweep you in.
Speaker 4: What's the draw?
Speaker 1: Like you get to live the life that you're not
Speaker 1: living in your every whole life. Okay, So are the
Speaker 1: people you're interacting with? Are they real people or are
Speaker 1: they characters?
Speaker 4: And both?
Speaker 3: The real people behind this are these avatars. Some are
Speaker 3: very old, some are very young. The draw like the
Speaker 3: draw for me ever since I can remember, And I
Speaker 3: don't know if this was because my evangelical Christian background.
Speaker 3: What you're supposed to do? I'm doing air quotes for
Speaker 3: those who can't see or because this was my DNA.
Speaker 3: But I always wanted to be married, always wanted to
Speaker 3: have kids, always wanted to be a stay at home mom.
Speaker 3: That was my thing, that was what I wanted, And
Speaker 3: being the early twenties, I was like, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 3: I'm not married, I don't have kids. All my friends
Speaker 3: are like what's wrong with me? And also it hit
Speaker 3: that I'm not enough because all these people are even
Speaker 3: though I have a full time job, I'm not content.
Speaker 3: I'm not launching. So Second Life drew that in because
Speaker 3: I found my community of misfits and I got married,
Speaker 3: I had kids. Even though these avatar kids were probably
Speaker 3: people older than me on this game, it didn't matter.
Speaker 4: I had family air quotes again.
Speaker 3: That were calling me mom, I have a husband. I
Speaker 3: was able to be a DJ on this game. I
Speaker 3: was a vampire on this game. Like everything I could
Speaker 3: do in this in this second life, I couldn't do
Speaker 3: my real world, and I just lived my full life
Speaker 3: revolving around the computer. Wow, so work came home right
Speaker 3: straight on a computer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like having an alter ego almost track.
Speaker 1: Yeah you think, yeah, you think I'm like a normal girl.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm a vampire. I have twenty children, and I
Speaker 1: am awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, I just want to hear a
Speaker 2: little bit more about that, like second life lifestyle, because
Speaker 2: I'm sure there will be plenty of people who've never played.
Speaker 2: Like how much time were you spending on there? And
Speaker 2: how much time is like your digital husband spending on there,
Speaker 2: Like how much actual interaction is happening?
Speaker 3: Very much like every moment I was not working, I
Speaker 3: was not with the few face and face friends I
Speaker 3: had and family, it was all spent on this computer.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: He my second life husband and I were actually talking
Speaker 3: outside of it. So since we were all about the game,
Speaker 3: we would be calling each other. We were playing to
Speaker 3: meet each other each other in real life like, so
Speaker 3: it was an extension of this game. And these people
Speaker 3: I met on their air quote again met they Some
Speaker 3: of them had my phone number. I was calling them.
Speaker 3: There were people from all the way over on the
Speaker 3: other side world, England, Australia I was talking to. I
Speaker 3: was figuring out how I could live my real life
Speaker 3: to commendate my second life like I was doing real
Speaker 3: life stuff to a piece of parents, a peace, my friends, yes,
Speaker 3: I'll go out and do this, but I was literally
Speaker 3: looking my watch counting down the hour so I could
Speaker 3: get back on the game.
Speaker 2: And what were you doing for work at that time.
Speaker 3: I'm a medical assistant, so I was working at a
Speaker 3: primary care office, and so I was doing the real
Speaker 3: life thing making the money, but I woul kind of
Speaker 3: wait to get home to get back on my computer,
Speaker 3: back to my people.
Speaker 2: Wow, I mean it makes so much sense. There have
Speaker 2: been a number of people in my life who've had
Speaker 2: a very similar lifestyle for a while, and fortunately it's
Speaker 2: eventually we're like, Okay, this is taking too much of
Speaker 2: my time. Correct. It's crazy how how seductive it is,
Speaker 2: because you would think you would think, like, well, it's
Speaker 2: just a game that's not your real life, so why
Speaker 2: would it be addictive like that? But it is, so
Speaker 2: it really is.
Speaker 3: Especially for that core belief I had that I'm not enough.
Speaker 3: I am behind this computer. Who I am in real
Speaker 3: life is not enough. I felt like an outcast. I
Speaker 3: didn't fit in. I wasn't comfortable in my own skin
Speaker 3: at all, to be the nerd, the huge fantasy person,
Speaker 3: the person who is fearly into Harry Potter, all of that,
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like to be that because I wasn't
Speaker 3: into athletics. I was a musical Like the tangible things
Speaker 3: I thought were good in the world, the tangible gifts
Speaker 3: I didn't have, so of course who am I? So
Speaker 3: that's why Second Life really tapped into that.
Speaker 2: It makes so much sense. And I have to mention
Speaker 2: that my friends and I would go on there because
Speaker 2: you can have a sexual life somewhat on Second Life
Speaker 2: as well, and for you know, like a little former
Speaker 2: Mormon girl, I was like, I can do what.
Speaker 1: Yep much So yeah, what does what do you mean?
Speaker 3: Lowo?
Speaker 2: How old are you? I don't know this, I was
Speaker 2: probably nineteen or something.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: So like in theory, like this is a great opportunity
Speaker 2: for all kinds of people who can't connect us easily
Speaker 2: in real life or for whatever reason, just have this
Speaker 2: hobby to like act out some of their fantasies.
Speaker 3: And act out disabilities.
Speaker 2: There's nothing inherently wrong with spending a lot of time
Speaker 2: on a game, but you know, it's just maybe if
Speaker 2: it becomes consuming and diminishes your quality of life outside
Speaker 2: of the game, perhaps, although this will be a larger
Speaker 2: conversation we'll see as AI like as virtual reality becomes
Speaker 2: more prevalent, Like, we'll see how that evolves. So how
Speaker 2: did you finally decide like, Okay, I got to get
Speaker 2: off this game.
Speaker 3: It's actually the people I ended up moving in with
Speaker 3: up to State, New York towards the end of my
Speaker 3: time on They're they're like, well, if you are super
Speaker 3: addicted to this game, you should not be on here.
Speaker 3: You need to take a break. This is really eating
Speaker 3: up all your time, it's eating up all your money.
Speaker 3: You need to get out.
Speaker 2: The other people on the game are telling you this, whoa.
Speaker 4: And do you have to pay for like per hour on?
Speaker 1: Or it's like you buy food in the game or
Speaker 1: what what are you we're paying?
Speaker 3: Like, if you want good clothes, if you want your
Speaker 3: avatar to look amazing, you got to put some money
Speaker 3: into it.
Speaker 4: Got it? Okay? Okay.
Speaker 1: So the other people playing the game with you are like,
Speaker 1: you're playing this game too much.
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, that's a little wake up call.
Speaker 1: I see where you're where you're at Okay.
Speaker 2: And these are people you trusted already and had a
Speaker 2: relationship with on there right.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was starting to get to know them. I
Speaker 3: was starting we were having conversations of like, hey, let's
Speaker 3: meet outside of second life, let's meet face to face
Speaker 3: and everything. So we were starting to build that relationship
Speaker 3: outside a second life. And when it was immersing there,
Speaker 3: I trusted. I was like, oh you like me? I
Speaker 3: trust you, Like there is that false sense of intimacy
Speaker 3: behind me that I was like, Oh, okay, even though
Speaker 3: I've never met you, I don't know, I know you
Speaker 3: live somewhere in New York. I trust you because we
Speaker 3: spent all the time on computer by noble what your
Speaker 3: face looks like? So yeah, I trust them instantly. I
Speaker 3: was like, okay, yeah, I'll get off of here.
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're offering you a different side quest, so
Speaker 1: to speak, come meet us in person.
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly were those two things in the same breath.
Speaker 2: Was it like, hey, you, you spent so much time
Speaker 2: on there, why don't you get off and come to
Speaker 2: this place with us? Yeah?
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 2: They're so smart recruiting tegt Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: So I didn't help with them right away. The interesting fans,
Speaker 3: I can be very all of them, very black and white.
Speaker 3: So when I got off to this game, I was
Speaker 3: like culture getting rid of everyone, And it wasn't until
Speaker 3: like I was kind of creeping, like watching them from
Speaker 3: the sidelines to see what they're doing. But it wasn't
Speaker 3: until about a year or so later that they're like, Hey,
Speaker 3: we haven't talked to you forever. What I'm going to
Speaker 3: reach back out to you. How are you doing? We
Speaker 3: got off the game too, we still want to meet you,
Speaker 3: how like started all that tactics again. And I was
Speaker 3: still in the place in my life where it was
Speaker 3: still very discontent. I was like, not married, didn't have kids,
Speaker 3: was not happy with my job. So perfect way for
Speaker 3: them to lure me in.
Speaker 2: I got to say, it's kind of brilliant going to
Speaker 2: games like Second Life to find people to recruit, because
Speaker 2: you're going to you're probably more likely to find an
Speaker 2: isolated or lonely population on their people who are in
Speaker 2: search of community and maybe haven't had as much of
Speaker 2: it in person and would be maybe excited at the
Speaker 2: opportunity to have that in person.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those little fuckers.
Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, and yeah, yeah, you can be surrounded by people,
Speaker 1: I mean, you were one of seven, but they're not
Speaker 1: satisfying relationships and so they know, you know, hey, people
Speaker 1: on Second Life might want to join us in real life.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep.
Speaker 2: Okay, when they started reaching back out, what made you decide? Hey,
Speaker 2: this place they're describing sounds like worth going to.
Speaker 3: There was a guy involved and the kid. Yep, yep,
Speaker 3: there's a guy there. I started talking to and because
Speaker 3: I was craving a relationship and he had a daughter, Boom,
Speaker 3: my instant fantasy come true, right, fying sealed delivered. So
Speaker 3: when I traveled up there Labor Day weekend twenty sixteen
Speaker 3: and I saw him with this little girls, I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, this is it. This is where I
Speaker 3: need to be. I'm done. These are like my relationship,
Speaker 3: here's my family. I've been dying to have.
Speaker 1: Find me up and you like a black mirror Hallmark movie.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, okay, what were you about to say, Lilo? Sorry,
Speaker 2: you knew them before you went, or you met them
Speaker 2: once you went.
Speaker 3: I knew them before and when I reconnected with them,
Speaker 3: we started doing zoom call and that zoom skype calls.
Speaker 3: Zoom wasn't done, that skiped calls, faith timed, We were
Speaker 3: doing all that things. I started talking to them like
Speaker 3: every minute, every day when I was off work. Basically
Speaker 3: what I did in second life. Just now in real life,
Speaker 3: they started becoming the people. They started becoming the ones
Speaker 3: I filtered everything through.
Speaker 2: Wow, how did they market this community that you now
Speaker 2: called Crazyland? How did they present this place to you?
Speaker 3: We're all misfits too, We're all people who get it.
Speaker 3: We were outcasts in our family. We didn't sit in anywhere.
Speaker 3: We are just like you, and we all build our
Speaker 3: small community, this community together. We're a family that was
Speaker 3: very strong in there. That's the buzzword. We're a family.
Speaker 3: It might not be blood family, but we will be
Speaker 3: stronger than your blood family. We will care more for
Speaker 3: you than your blood family ever.
Speaker 2: We will my God, sign me up. If I'm in
Speaker 2: your position, yep, one, why would I not go?
Speaker 3: And they were like, you're you're not this because growing
Speaker 3: up also, I've always wanted to learn things like guys do,
Speaker 3: Like I want to know how to change the oil
Speaker 3: in a car. I want to know how to use
Speaker 3: carpentry tools, like I want to do that get my
Speaker 3: hands dirty. But no one ever taught me. And they're like, oh,
Speaker 3: we got you. We'll teach you how to do these
Speaker 3: tangible things that you won't have any guy. You don't
Speaker 3: need to rely on any guy, you'll be a strong
Speaker 3: and ended woman. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Where was it? Where was crazy Land?
Speaker 3: So this place was in upstate New York, about an
Speaker 3: hour north northeast something north of Albany. It's in just
Speaker 3: below the outer on the mountains, so you feel like
Speaker 3: up this mountain and it's ran between Glotterusgoe and Kroga
Speaker 3: Lake in it does gorgeous. New York State itself is gorgeous.
Speaker 3: I kind of get over driving back and forth seeing
Speaker 3: the fall foliage. I was there during the winter seeing
Speaker 3: the snow cap like mountains in the distant, gorgeous, gorgeous place.
Speaker 3: But my the area I lived in was the poorest
Speaker 3: place in New York.
Speaker 2: And just to clarify something you mentioned in your conversation
Speaker 2: earlier as well, this was not Nexium, despite it being
Speaker 2: your Albany totally unrelated.
Speaker 3: Not xim though. It's interesting because I was there at
Speaker 3: the same time Nexium was starting to be blown up.
Speaker 3: Oh it was in When I heard that on was like,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, and I am convinced. The head guy
Speaker 3: of my group, because he lived in Renseleer, where Keith
Speaker 3: Vanieri is from, was like, I would not be surprised
Speaker 3: if he knew Keith or read some information about him,
Speaker 3: had some like somehow because there was very similar things.
Speaker 3: You would say, can.
Speaker 2: That is so interesting because my my cult leader growing up,
Speaker 2: and Keith Ranieri also like would like observe each other
Speaker 2: because they knew about each other. It's so they like
Speaker 2: really do model. They like watch each other and like
Speaker 2: model their own ship after the other person, which is
Speaker 2: so fucking weird.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. Watching the Bow was like,
Speaker 3: oh wait, what wow?
Speaker 2: Interesting? Can you tell us what was actually happening there?
Speaker 2: Like physically, what were they doing on the property? Was
Speaker 2: a business?
Speaker 4: Right, looked like too and it was this guy.
Speaker 3: It was awful. So but even though I knew it
Speaker 3: was awful, I could see it. I want the audience
Speaker 3: to know. I was so captivated by having this family,
Speaker 3: having this guy and this kid, so the awful crap
Speaker 3: in the background. I was like, I can kind of
Speaker 3: make do with this because I have my family. That
Speaker 3: that was the big draw at that time. So at
Speaker 3: one point they are there thirteen of us living in
Speaker 3: a single wide trailer.
Speaker 2: Whoa, yeah, how it happened.
Speaker 3: It was insane, But that's why we call it crazy Land.
Speaker 3: Thank you mom.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Towards the end, the head guy got a camper and
Speaker 3: some people were living in the camper and we also
Speaker 3: had about it seven kids from me and just a newborn,
Speaker 3: all the way up to seven living there too. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I see you all is fair. Yeah, so you're like family. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so it felt like it was a commune. It really
Speaker 3: was a little commune on painted plywood floors and walls.
Speaker 3: The bathrooms could only the toys might be flushed once
Speaker 3: a day, so very poor living conditions.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So one toilet for thirteen people that can only be
Speaker 1: flushed one time per day, I.
Speaker 2: Like physically can't have you guys aren't pooping like how.
Speaker 3: They There was, there was, and there will be times.
Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, I guess I'm going outside. I'm
Speaker 3: not going in that thing.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say that at that point I would
Speaker 2: rather just do that. That's crazy pretty much.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 3: And the second system hadn't been pumped like two years
Speaker 3: or something like that, with the wanting the run, yeah,
Speaker 3: the running rope water, this is where the layers come.
Speaker 2: This is yeah yeah wow.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm I'm with you, like
Speaker 1: you got the man you got the kid. I see,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like camping and there's l i'n't like camping,
Speaker 1: and I'm codependent.
Speaker 3: So I can fix everything.
Speaker 2: I have the money.
Speaker 3: What we can change this. Sign me up. I can
Speaker 3: rescue all these people. I have the answers. We can
Speaker 3: change all of this. But we the running water, like
Speaker 3: we couldn't drink the water or anything like that. We
Speaker 3: had to actually go to like a stream to get
Speaker 3: actually water we could drink with and everything to cook
Speaker 3: with during the winters. We had. They called it the dragon.
Speaker 3: I'm doing air worlds. This is this huge like woodstove
Speaker 3: type thing that at times like everyone, I want people
Speaker 3: to know everyone's on government assistance. I'm not dissing anyone
Speaker 3: who's on that, but these people were definitely misusing the system.
Speaker 3: They could have easily worked. They took. They manipulated system
Speaker 3: so they could take what they want. So those who
Speaker 3: are on it those who need it, and these people
Speaker 3: didn't need it, and they were using it for those
Speaker 3: who didn't need it. I was so I was mad
Speaker 3: about it. At the same time, I started be one
Speaker 3: of them. I got on assistance too, so when the
Speaker 3: wood would run out, we would have to go out
Speaker 3: chop the wood and like call it in and stack
Speaker 3: the wood and throw it into Yeah.
Speaker 1: What was kind of the reasoning of we need to
Speaker 1: be on assistance because we're so busy.
Speaker 3: Our draw is the government owes us. We have worked
Speaker 3: so hard, we have this hard, crappy life. They owe us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean listen, get I get the logic. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: A lot of people I know would probably feel the
Speaker 2: same way. But didn't you mention that there was some
Speaker 2: kind of machinery.
Speaker 3: Yes, so they had they called they said they had
Speaker 3: a quote unquote landscaping snow plowing company. They really didn't.
Speaker 3: That was their way to get a little bit of
Speaker 3: money here and there when we were really like when
Speaker 3: the snap ran out, when everything ran out, we needed
Speaker 3: this money or when my money he ran out. That's
Speaker 3: the little income they had here and there to get
Speaker 3: their quote unquote tax right off. So they there's this
Speaker 3: big plot of land next door that they had a
Speaker 3: dump truck, they had a bacco, They had tons of
Speaker 3: tractors and trucks that were always broken down. We always
Speaker 3: had to fix them and everything. So the front of
Speaker 3: this lot looked kind of nice. But because it backed
Speaker 3: up into the woods. All the crap and garbage was
Speaker 3: hidden within the woods, Like I wan't be surprised that
Speaker 3: there was bery bodies on this land like dead.
Speaker 2: As Yeah, this is wild. So how many adults actually
Speaker 2: lived there at that time?
Speaker 3: About thirteen of us? Six seven?
Speaker 2: And can you tell us who the man will call
Speaker 2: Ron was?
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, so he and his wife all call her
Speaker 3: Nilly no one. Ever, they referred to everyone as either
Speaker 3: brother's sister or a daughter son, and only one child
Speaker 3: there was actually blood related. So when you came into
Speaker 3: this family and they set up the premise of everyone
Speaker 3: who came there, like I said the war was an outcast,
Speaker 3: they're like, oh the family, your family kicked you out,
Speaker 3: you don't have a place to go. Come here, we'll
Speaker 3: give you a place to stay, which, in and of
Speaker 3: him South is it's great, that's wonderful. But they never
Speaker 3: set up people to be like, Okay, let's help you
Speaker 3: get a job, let's help you move out to get rent.
Speaker 3: So everyone's day under that guise of my brother, sister
Speaker 3: or daughter son. So he referred to me as his sister.
Speaker 3: The guy I was with will call Jeremy as their son.
Speaker 2: Oh weird, Yeah, okay, what do you think the reason
Speaker 2: for that distinction was.
Speaker 3: That the like I said, the budget's word was the family,
Speaker 3: we are now your family, We are now the people
Speaker 3: you refer to that we are better than that.
Speaker 2: And but here partner being his son, your boyfriend being
Speaker 2: his son, was that? So he was because he was
Speaker 2: needing to be below him, do you think versus his
Speaker 2: brother so.
Speaker 3: Below him because he was there quite a few years
Speaker 3: before me and Jeremy. He's a sweetheart, but he was
Speaker 3: also a bit on the slower side, so he was
Speaker 3: taken advantage of in that way. And he was also
Speaker 3: very hard working and everything. And he had known Ron
Speaker 3: all his years, so he was kind of like that
Speaker 3: dad figure to him. Okay, and that's where the sun
Speaker 3: came along. But when I came along, it's like, oh, no,
Speaker 3: you're like my sister. I'm amaw you do. You're like
Speaker 3: my sister. But yet the relationship we had was very
Speaker 3: it was not brother sister whatsoever, whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yikes.
Speaker 1: Were all of the people in this community were they
Speaker 1: also playing the game at some point and did any
Speaker 1: those relationships reflect what the relationships have been in the game.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were all playing the game, and a lot
Speaker 3: of the girls that were there were basically darters.
Speaker 4: Yeahs and air quotes, got.
Speaker 3: You yeah, daughter and air quotes yeah.
Speaker 2: On the game they were daughters.
Speaker 3: They were daughters. They were on hos of air quotes, darters.
Speaker 3: Everyone eventually had avatar in this game. The guys eventually
Speaker 3: like feeded out. They're like, we don't want we actually
Speaker 3: want to go out and do real life things. And
Speaker 3: when I say quote air quotes again real life, it's
Speaker 3: let's tinker around on the dump truck. Let's use this
Speaker 3: bacco to say we're doing stuff around the house, but
Speaker 3: we're really not. So everyone eventually had an avatar in
Speaker 3: this game.
Speaker 2: Was there just one computer? I mean, I'm just like,
Speaker 2: how was their internet if there wasn't even Yeah.
Speaker 3: Before I came along, I'm not sure where the money
Speaker 3: came in. I had my suspicions of who was a
Speaker 3: cash cow before me, But when I came in, I was.
Speaker 3: I had the role of the cash cow. I had
Speaker 3: the cash, I have the means. But when you were
Speaker 3: walking to the trailer, there was like a sixty and
Speaker 3: flat screen TV. So yeah, so they very much prided
Speaker 3: their things. There were two computers, one was Nelly's computer
Speaker 3: that that was hers. But then there was this other
Speaker 3: computer everyone could rotate using. And some people have laptops
Speaker 3: the would use the game for. But so they whenever
Speaker 3: they got their tax right off, it would go, I
Speaker 3: want to go into the house. It would go into
Speaker 3: their stuff all in the game. Yeah, into the game
Speaker 3: and actually physical stuff like new TV, new Xbox, new computer.
Speaker 2: New laptop, but not a toilet that you can flash
Speaker 2: more than exactly wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: Second life was more important than first life.
Speaker 3: Stuck exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Dad, Ron and Ron used second line too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did when I was on there, use it wholeheartedly.
Speaker 3: But when I left, he didn't feel the need to anymore.
Speaker 3: And he was the one who reached out to me.
Speaker 2: Oh I was yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Ron's kind of like going on here searching
Speaker 1: for people who have motivation, real jobs, caring and bringing
Speaker 1: them to this world.
Speaker 3: I want to put it past them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but once you were there, you were not working anymore.
Speaker 3: I told everyone back here in Pennsylvania that I was.
Speaker 3: I was part time because when I was planning to
Speaker 3: move up there, I was looking for a job. I
Speaker 3: was trying. I was trying to find that job, and
Speaker 3: there actually was a part time job around the town
Speaker 3: I was living in. I was going to be living
Speaker 3: in up there, and so I used that to my advantage, like, oh,
Speaker 3: I can say this is my job. I can say
Speaker 3: this is where I'm getting So my mom believed it,
Speaker 3: Hope Live and Singer. My dad didn't. But my mom
Speaker 3: was like, oh cool, even though she also her shit
Speaker 3: radar was up. She's like, this is crap.
Speaker 2: This is so wrong. Were any of the other adults
Speaker 2: recruited from Second Life to come or was it just you?
Speaker 2: Just me, okay, okay, I've just never heard of this.
Speaker 2: I've just never heard. I mean, it must happen all
Speaker 2: the time, I've just never heard of it. It's wild.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised they didn't keep you working to keep your
Speaker 1: more money flowing. But I also realized that they probably
Speaker 1: don't want you speaking to other people outside of the
Speaker 1: group exactly.
Speaker 3: Like when I visited there September twenty sixteen, and I
Speaker 3: was planning to move at the beginning of the year
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen. But going back and forth, I was
Speaker 3: there when was every weekend, driving from PA all the
Speaker 3: way up there every weekend. It was my escape from reality.
Speaker 3: It was my escape from life here in Pennsylvania. Thought
Speaker 3: I ate it at the time that eventually I allowed
Speaker 3: them to convince me so much to just run away
Speaker 3: up there in the middle of the night in November eight,
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, and they just were like, And my parents
Speaker 3: came about two weeks later for my birthday just because
Speaker 3: they wanted to see. They had no idea what was
Speaker 3: going on.
Speaker 2: My mom.
Speaker 3: There's like two parts of his story. It's my part,
Speaker 3: my mom's part. My mom's amazing. She was fighting for
Speaker 3: me so hard down here in PI. Love my mom
Speaker 3: so much that when she saw I left my apartment,
Speaker 3: she like broke down and started screaming and wailing in
Speaker 3: my apartment when she saw it. Just yeah, yeah, Mom
Speaker 3: was great. But they came up there, and I was
Speaker 3: trying so hard to get them on board with this,
Speaker 3: but we're like, we're not having it. That's a shit.
Speaker 3: It was interesting looking back that I can see Ron
Speaker 3: in the distance watching my parents parents like a hawk.
Speaker 3: They were not He was not happy. My parents were there, like,
Speaker 3: He's not gonna say no, don't come see your daughter,
Speaker 3: because they just wanted to see what I was living in.
Speaker 3: They just wanted to see that physically I'm still okay
Speaker 3: and not being held against my will. He was like
Speaker 3: very distant, not the wrong I knew. He was like
Speaker 3: very personable, was talking to me, saying all these like
Speaker 3: things about his past, philosophogal talks to them, everything like that.
Speaker 3: But my parents came. Oh no, he wasn't having any
Speaker 3: of it. So when they left, and I broke down, going,
Speaker 3: what's wrong? Why don't my parents see how great this is?
Speaker 3: Why aren't they on board? And just so upset that
Speaker 3: I could see the disconnect between me and my parents,
Speaker 3: And deep down I knew why, but I didn't want
Speaker 3: to voice it. He was like, they don't understand this
Speaker 3: is good for you. You're going everyone needs to go
Speaker 3: through a rebellion phase. We're actually your family, were the
Speaker 3: people you need to trust. We are like mom are
Speaker 3: never going to get it, and she can't get on board,
Speaker 3: just forget about her. Woh John.
Speaker 2: So that's some real isolating tactics trick. I'm surprised he
Speaker 2: let them come, But it also makes sense to me
Speaker 2: because it was so early. I feel like typically it
Speaker 2: takes time to truly convince someone to be fully isolated.
Speaker 2: From their loved ones, and if it was only two
Speaker 2: weeks and he wouldn't have earned that yet.
Speaker 3: Yes, I didn't make trips back down to during my
Speaker 3: time up there, like for Christmas. My grandfather died during
Speaker 3: the time that I was up there, and he was
Speaker 3: constantly messaging me like he I was on his radar
Speaker 3: that He's like, okay, I know that she comes. She's
Speaker 3: very knowledgeable, like she I'm not fully at that time
Speaker 3: fully streak smart smart, but because I had therapy, I
Speaker 3: had years therapy before this, It's like she knows, she
Speaker 3: is very easily her My brain is bleaking.
Speaker 4: Critical thinking thinking.
Speaker 3: Would eventually come back, and he did not want that
Speaker 3: to so he was constantly like, we missed you up here.
Speaker 3: It's not the same without you here, lost without you here.
Speaker 3: Jeremy's lost without you here. You're a huge part of
Speaker 3: this family. We need you back, Like anytime I was away,
Speaker 3: constantly messaging me, make how much it's still attached.
Speaker 4: How much older than you was he.
Speaker 3: Probably between ten and fifteen years. He was late thirties
Speaker 3: at the time I was up there, got you forties.
Speaker 2: So there's an authority dynamic between you two. I feel
Speaker 2: like we were just talking about this with our guest
Speaker 2: who was on one tree Hill. Why am I blanking
Speaker 2: on her name? Meg? And what is her name?
Speaker 3: Book?
Speaker 2: It was amazing, right, yeah, so much so yeah, so good.
Speaker 2: But it just that same thing of like when she
Speaker 2: left and she was away, they're just constantly trying to
Speaker 2: talk to her, keeping her brain in the group at
Speaker 2: all times, because God forbid she would start questioning or
Speaker 2: thinking critically.
Speaker 3: You know, yes, yeah, yeah, I related that.
Speaker 4: I was gonna say.
Speaker 1: The story reminds me besides the fact that they were
Speaker 1: using her as keep working, don't do Broadway, keep on
Speaker 1: these like shows that pay more money, money, money, money, money,
Speaker 1: So what was like their what was their ultimate want
Speaker 1: from you? Like, what was their purpose with you?
Speaker 3: It was that money, Yeah, and to like do up
Speaker 3: the house better, do a little bit things better. But
Speaker 3: they didn't want me to go out and get a
Speaker 3: job because they didn't want me to leave. So once
Speaker 3: I also when my bank account was running low, I
Speaker 3: got a credit card and he was the co signer
Speaker 3: on it. So that was the other thing too, that
Speaker 3: we could use up all this credit card line and everything.
Speaker 3: By it, I was racking up the debt. So even
Speaker 3: though I wasn't. Their money wasn't going in and he
Speaker 3: the jobs he did, he would put a little bit
Speaker 3: maybe two hundred three hundred here and there, but it
Speaker 3: was still okay, you have the good credit. Let's get
Speaker 3: a credit card. That's easy. We can easily pay it off. Eventually,
Speaker 3: we can pay it off with taxes. That was the
Speaker 3: big thing. Taxes, taxes, taxes, let's get that tax right off.
Speaker 2: Oh god, which just sigh. Yeah, why are they all
Speaker 2: the same? I know, I want to know a little
Speaker 2: bit more about your understanding now of Ron's psychology. I mean,
Speaker 2: it sounds like he had everybody pretty tightly controlled. Was
Speaker 2: the control part of the appeal for him? Or was
Speaker 2: it all of the appeal for him? You think being
Speaker 2: able to control people?
Speaker 3: I think it was all the appeal. Yeah, having people
Speaker 3: to do various little things. He had Nelly, who was
Speaker 3: a quote unquote wife taking care of the house, even
Speaker 3: though there was a lot of discontentment in their marriage.
Speaker 3: He had the air quotes again, family. He wanted. He
Speaker 3: had someone to do the work for him. That was Jeremy.
Speaker 3: He was the one doing like he would be up
Speaker 3: early outside getting everything prepped. Well, Ron's up till like
Speaker 3: twelve thirty one, oh my god, in the morning and
Speaker 3: in the afternoon, because he would have to go to
Speaker 3: bed into like three thirty four in the morning. So
Speaker 3: he had all these people keeping him, having like a
Speaker 3: little as much as you can there a cushion life.
Speaker 4: Got you would he be staying up that late playing
Speaker 4: the game?
Speaker 3: No, he wasn't playing the game. He was just on TV. God.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's just a lazy little fucker who just
Speaker 2: wants to be a prince and have everyone do everything
Speaker 2: for him.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: And what were you Did you feel like in love
Speaker 1: with Jeremy at this time or like.
Speaker 3: What I was? I was very much in love, which
Speaker 3: is why when I my critical thinking started kicking in,
Speaker 3: I didn't want to come running back with the tail
Speaker 3: between my legs. I had so much pride. My pride
Speaker 3: really got into the way that I was like, I
Speaker 3: love him and these kids, the kids that were there.
Speaker 3: If there wasn't these kids there, I pretty much probably
Speaker 3: would have been back sooner. I didn't want. I felt
Speaker 3: like I had to protect these kids because I was
Speaker 3: providing the food, the electricity, the warmth, and I was like,
Speaker 3: I cannot let these kids starve. I don't want anything
Speaker 3: to happen. He used those kids manipulative to keep me there.
Speaker 3: So between my love for Jeremy and these kids, that's
Speaker 3: what I was like, how can I figure out how
Speaker 3: my cake and eat it too that I can kind
Speaker 3: of disconnect from these people, move out of this place
Speaker 3: into my own place, but still be close enough to
Speaker 3: kind of be a part of it where Jeremy won't
Speaker 3: be upset, that we can still be in but not
Speaker 3: fully in.
Speaker 4: Did you try to find that happy medium?
Speaker 3: I did? I love and apartments. I started looking for
Speaker 3: jobs and he was not happy. He would say, he
Speaker 3: was like, oh, yeah, you're not happy. You need to
Speaker 3: go on work. You need to do some work. Who
Speaker 3: knows when we'll get our landscaped, be company up in
Speaker 3: the spring or whatever. Yeah, go out and find a
Speaker 3: part of time job. But when I would be like, oh,
Speaker 3: look at this place, He's like, Oh, I don't know
Speaker 3: about the place for you guys. I don't know if
Speaker 3: the daughter she would really like that there?
Speaker 2: You know, like, yeah, whose kids were they other than
Speaker 2: Jeremy's kid? Who did they belong to?
Speaker 3: And this is why I say, is that ongoing Jerry's
Speaker 3: Springer episode. These kids were two of the girls there
Speaker 3: had had kids one because the girl, I'm just gonna
Speaker 3: gonna say, they were both Jeremy's exes living in this place.
Speaker 3: He brought them in and they stayed.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, yeah, okay, Yeah, that's fun for you.
Speaker 3: Ongoing Jerry Springer episode. And they are also people who
Speaker 3: they're not fully with it. There are more on the
Speaker 3: slower side. Again, you to manipulate them and what happened.
Speaker 3: So they very much trusted me to act like a
Speaker 3: parental role to these kids. So those two girls had
Speaker 3: two kids of their own there, and then we brought
Speaker 3: in another fam Another girl had three kids there too,
Speaker 3: So we were bringing in people as we as I
Speaker 3: was living there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whoa, who is the new one? Who was the
Speaker 2: new woman?
Speaker 3: She was just somebody who knew one of the girls
Speaker 3: in the group, okay, And she's like, I need a
Speaker 3: place to stay. I'm getting kicked out. I can't let
Speaker 3: my kids starve and go cold, and we're like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, come on in, none of you guys better go
Speaker 4: to the bathroom.
Speaker 3: Yeah. It was insane. Yeah, basically going outside during the
Speaker 3: winter to was like yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yeah, I have to know what the
Speaker 2: sleeping arrangements were, because how I cannot I still can't
Speaker 2: process how you all would fit in that.
Speaker 3: It was impressive. I will say this. Ron was a
Speaker 3: really smart dude. He knew his shit, he knew he knew,
Speaker 3: and he was able to look at a space and
Speaker 3: be like, how can we make people fit in there?
Speaker 3: So they added on a little room for me and Jeremy.
Speaker 3: There were three rooms. There was a three rooms along
Speaker 3: the hallway and like the masterroom air quoting that in
Speaker 3: the back. So the one room by the living room
Speaker 3: they set up two little toddler coots who are the
Speaker 3: first two girls who were there, Kenzie and the other girl,
Speaker 3: and then one of the of Jeremy's ex's let there.
Speaker 3: Then they had another room where the blood sun of
Speaker 3: Naly and Ron lept there and something he had a
Speaker 3: bunk bed, so sometimes another person was able to go
Speaker 3: in there.
Speaker 2: Wow yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: And then there's a third room in the back that
Speaker 3: a couple slept there, and then Nally slept in the
Speaker 3: back while Ron slept in the living room most of
Speaker 3: the time. Okay, and when people came along with the
Speaker 3: new girl came along with her kids, that's when the
Speaker 3: camper came along, got you and went to gotcha?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, And I have to ask this question
Speaker 2: because this is just what inevitably comes up with these situations.
Speaker 2: Was Ron sexually abusing anybody?
Speaker 3: Yes? I found out later, Yes, he didn't me for
Speaker 3: there was definitely if it wasn't for Jeremy, he definitely
Speaker 3: would have. He definitely would have gaus. Looking back, there
Speaker 3: were sexual conversations between him and I. That's why I
Speaker 3: said he didn't treat me like it's just cure because
Speaker 3: of the conversation. But he was actually abusing.
Speaker 2: To the girls there. Yeah, the adult girl's adults, and.
Speaker 3: I fully I fully believe the kids too. I cannot
Speaker 3: prove it. But with things, and I can't get too
Speaker 3: much into this because there's a trial going on with
Speaker 3: my ex regarding some stuff. I would not be surprised,
Speaker 3: like just looking back kindstinks always twenty twenty that I'm like,
Speaker 3: he has to be too, he has to be. How
Speaker 3: can he not be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh, what a nightmare.
Speaker 4: Yeah, very, this is awful.
Speaker 3: Very, I'm very sorry, which is why those kids I felt,
Speaker 3: even though I wasn't able to protect them. There's all
Speaker 3: this crap going on that I didn't know until later.
Speaker 3: I felt like I had to protect them. I was
Speaker 3: the most sane of this insane place. Yeah, want to
Speaker 3: get some structure to these kids.
Speaker 2: That in stig makes so much sense to me, And yeah,
Speaker 2: it is such a useful tool on his part, which
Speaker 2: is not like, yeah, anyone who comes in and see
Speaker 2: these kids in this situation is going to be like, well, fuck,
Speaker 2: now I have to take care of these kids. Now
Speaker 2: I have to make sure that these kids are safe.
Speaker 1: Like it's just playing on your instincts and yeah, making
Speaker 1: you take care of them. I'm wondering how, like, how
Speaker 1: did your thought process begin to change when you're in
Speaker 1: the deepest part of it, Like, how are you reconciling? Yeah,
Speaker 1: how are you reconciling what's happening?
Speaker 3: It was very much pride, very prideful, because deep deep down,
Speaker 3: I mean, there's no when you go to use a
Speaker 3: bathroom full of poop, you that's it. That's the like
Speaker 3: visual like, Okay, this is really no pun intended crappy situation, like,
Speaker 3: there's no But I was just like, okay, how I
Speaker 3: kept thinking how I change this around for people? I
Speaker 3: wanted to rescue these people, not just the kids, but Jeremy,
Speaker 3: all the even these two exes who I had a
Speaker 3: battle back in my back and forth in my mind,
Speaker 3: like I can't believe I'm living here with them, But
Speaker 3: at the same time, how can I better them? I cared,
Speaker 3: I cared so much for these people at the same time,
Speaker 3: so it's like, I want to save these people. I
Speaker 3: want to rescue these people. I had the knowledge I
Speaker 3: can do this and a pride of Okay, I chose this,
Speaker 3: so I'm going to make the best of my situation
Speaker 3: as much as possible to.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably, like not wanting the people who had been
Speaker 1: like this is kind of weird to be right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds to me like, you know, you were
Speaker 2: describing earlier how you want to learn how to do
Speaker 2: the things that the men can do, and it sounds
Speaker 2: like you have this really like figure it out, can
Speaker 2: do attitude, which.
Speaker 1: Oh, if I had a cult, you'd be the first
Speaker 1: person I would have joint. And you're like, you know,
Speaker 1: hard working, smart, Like it sounds like your hands were
Speaker 1: really getting dirty, but you were enjoying it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I was learning things that like I
Speaker 3: was learning carpentry, skilled I wrote a snowmobile, I wrote,
Speaker 3: I learned how to drive a bacco. We were tearing
Speaker 3: down trailers and everything. So I was doing stuff that
Speaker 3: i've around here were in the county I live, There's
Speaker 3: no way I could get that. So I was learning
Speaker 3: useful tools. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I
Speaker 3: can do this. It was giving me the strength to go,
Speaker 3: I can do this. I'm not a helpless woman. I
Speaker 3: can use a drill. Now I write all this, I
Speaker 3: can use a chainsaw and survive. This is amazing.
Speaker 1: So did that kind of make you feel as though
Speaker 1: like now your first life was where the real magic
Speaker 1: and like stuff was and you didn't need the second
Speaker 1: life anymore because your first life was like meeting your needs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much, so very much. So I did not
Speaker 3: go on that game at all when I was up there,
Speaker 3: So yeah, they were all on it. I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm going to be outside with the boys, show me
Speaker 3: how to use the oil, like I was.
Speaker 2: Doing all that. So how long were you did You
Speaker 2: actually live there for a year and a half And
Speaker 2: you know, your parents obviously were suspicious in the beginning,
Speaker 2: and that came early on. What about like a little
Speaker 2: bit further in like six months a year in like
Speaker 2: what was your relationship with them? Like I so I.
Speaker 3: Actually cut when I When was it that I cut them off?
Speaker 3: I did eventually cut them off, very much like I
Speaker 3: would say Happy Birthday to my mom, I would say
Speaker 3: Happy Mother's Day, like do the nice daughter stuff. But
Speaker 3: there was definitely I did not want to hear it.
Speaker 3: My head was in the sand, like Ostrich, I'm like, nope,
Speaker 3: didn't leave me alone. I'm doing what I'm doing and everything.
Speaker 3: And they I did not know this at the time,
Speaker 3: but they were doing investigators on their side just to
Speaker 3: see like what's going on? Who are these people my
Speaker 3: daughter is there with? So they were and they were
Speaker 3: doing a lot on their side of like my dad
Speaker 3: was more the one who was asking, gently asking the
Speaker 3: questions while I was down there like trying to. Like
Speaker 3: Joyce said in her book.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, yeah.
Speaker 3: Build that relationship my mom, my dear amazing mom. She's
Speaker 3: one who can kind of have no filter and when
Speaker 3: it comes to me, she's like, I'm not going to
Speaker 3: lie to you, like I'm not going to hold back.
Speaker 3: This is grap I just got to get it out.
Speaker 3: Then you do with it. What you will. So my
Speaker 3: mom was definitely the powerhouse of like we like she
Speaker 3: was praying, she was like this is awful. We need
Speaker 3: to get you out of this, and everything, well, my
Speaker 3: dad was gently probing and asking these questions. When I
Speaker 3: was down there and still trying to maintain a relationship
Speaker 3: as much as possible.
Speaker 4: How did when did it start to collapse?
Speaker 3: So I came down for my birthday November twenty seventeen
Speaker 3: and actually today's my birthday, Actually today's my birthday birthday,
Speaker 3: and my dad took me off to to eat. I
Speaker 3: forget what was lunch for dinner, and we were talking
Speaker 3: doing the nice to be things, and he goes and
Speaker 3: my family knows, calls me Victoria. So he's like, Victoria,
Speaker 3: here's what I want you to do. I just want
Speaker 3: you to start asking questions and observe. That's all.
Speaker 1: I want you to smart, smart to start asking questions
Speaker 1: and observe.
Speaker 3: Yep, ask me. And at that time there were things
Speaker 3: slowly I was like, wait a minut, does that add up?
Speaker 3: Does that add up? And that was like the affirmation
Speaker 3: I needed to go, Okay, maybe I should. Dad is
Speaker 3: my and my dad is one who when he's very quiet,
Speaker 3: like everyone just hushed because he has the wealth of knowledge.
Speaker 3: He has so much wisdom. It's like, okay, dad, Like
Speaker 3: mom's always saying this, and of course I do like
Speaker 3: my mom, like you know, it's a fair and s now.
Speaker 3: But it's like, okay, Dad, you're affirming this. So and
Speaker 3: that's what started it that I started slowly poking holes
Speaker 3: and kind of making notes on a story Ron would
Speaker 3: give then follow it up in a month be like,
Speaker 3: so you said that your uncle's in the mafia and
Speaker 3: that he had a heart attack, but he now is
Speaker 3: back in the hospital for cancer, right, what like slowly asked,
Speaker 3: like like I said, poking holes, asking questions and just
Speaker 3: making notes of all that in my mind and going okay,
Speaker 3: this is crazy, it's not right, And as there was
Speaker 3: still a fog in my mind, but it was enough
Speaker 3: for my cognitive distance to kick in and go, okay,
Speaker 3: I don't I don't want to about of the state.
Speaker 3: I love Jeremy, I love these kids. I can't start
Speaker 3: staying here. The more people that were coming in, he
Speaker 3: was starting to listen to other people and not me anymore.
Speaker 3: Uh huh. I started to see that shift. I'm like,
Speaker 3: she's not like, she's not meeting the criteria for this.
Speaker 3: What she's doing is wrong. She's manipulating things now, and
Speaker 3: you're listening to her. So there started to be a
Speaker 3: shift in the group that.
Speaker 2: Was like Ron would start to listen to someone knew
Speaker 2: who had her outd yep. Oh interesting, yep.
Speaker 3: And I was like, hmm hmm, this isn't because I
Speaker 3: think he was having sexual relations with her.
Speaker 2: Mm yeah, what were some of the other things, Like
Speaker 2: prior to your dad saying that, were there moments where
Speaker 2: you'd be like, huh, that doesn't seem like it's true,
Speaker 2: or like did anything come up for you like that?
Speaker 3: He is very good at the fantasy world do He
Speaker 3: would say all these things about his family where he's like,
Speaker 3: I have this aunt who's in the circus, and at
Speaker 3: that time I was making I was taking plastic bags
Speaker 3: and making actual like toape bags out of them. It's
Speaker 3: called porning, like reuse and recycle. It's very cool. So
Speaker 3: anyone who likes croucheting look it up. It's very helpful.
Speaker 3: And he's like, I can get all these plastic bags
Speaker 3: so you can make all these toads and sell them.
Speaker 3: My aunt is in the circus. She has tons of them.
Speaker 3: It's going to be dropped off in a few weeks.
Speaker 3: Never happened, and anytime I asked, it was like, what's
Speaker 3: going on? Where are these things? And at that time
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, whatever. I don't really know his family.
Speaker 3: But then I started talking to because his blood family
Speaker 3: lived nearby, and I started asking the blood family a
Speaker 3: few questions, like do you have the aunt who's in
Speaker 3: the circus? What?
Speaker 1: No, never moved back when in the circus bringing me
Speaker 1: the plastic bags, right, Like.
Speaker 3: Do you have a brother in the mafia? Like how
Speaker 3: many brothers do you have?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: I only have one brother? Oh, and I'm thinking about
Speaker 3: I was told you had like five oh, things like that.
Speaker 3: Little things like that.
Speaker 4: I was like, hmm, and how would your brain explain
Speaker 4: them away?
Speaker 1: Would it just be like, well, if you have a
Speaker 1: brother in the mafia, of course they're not going to
Speaker 1: like say it or.
Speaker 4: Stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just was like, Okay, I'm not going to question that.
Speaker 3: I don't want to die, right, I don't want to
Speaker 3: do that. Or like he was like, we're in the Freemasons,
Speaker 3: and I don't know that much about the Freemasons, right,
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, it's that's a secret group. I
Speaker 3: don't want to like, I don't want people come out
Speaker 3: of the woods and attack me.
Speaker 2: Right of course he's saying, yeah, of course he's saying
Speaker 2: things that have some like an air of secrecy around them.
Speaker 2: So exactly plausible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Did he present himself as like a some kind of
Speaker 2: special authority of some kind on life or spiritually or
Speaker 2: anything like that.
Speaker 3: It was he was spiritually No, because his birthday was
Speaker 3: on October thirty first, so he always said he was
Speaker 3: part of the devil. He was like the double spawn. Okay, lovely,
Speaker 3: more like I know so much about history and everything,
Speaker 3: and I have all this like like I said, it's survivalists.
Speaker 3: I have all these things that help you survive in
Speaker 3: the world that people cast decide that people don't know.
Speaker 3: How good at a mechanic I am, at a landscaper
Speaker 3: I am. I have all these tricks that can help
Speaker 3: you succeed in life. By why you don't need to
Speaker 3: go to a nine to five job. I can help
Speaker 3: you survive with these little locations things.
Speaker 2: Was there this sense of like an impending apocalypse or
Speaker 2: was there a prepper element to all of it.
Speaker 3: There wasn't a prepper element, they didn't have the money,
Speaker 3: but it was definitely like we are going to protect
Speaker 3: our own though, like I'm going to teach you guys
Speaker 3: how to survive that if, like it wasn't preppy, but
Speaker 3: if something were to happen, you know how or if
Speaker 3: if you ever do leave but don't you can survive
Speaker 3: out there. Right, It's a fun way to survive. And
Speaker 3: we're and one of the big things that we're going
Speaker 3: to take this off the grid and we're going to
Speaker 3: live on our own where no one can touch.
Speaker 2: This type of thing. Right, that would get me. I've
Speaker 2: talked about this before, but my boyfriend and I we
Speaker 2: like started getting into like learning how to like we
Speaker 2: suck at it. We don't we would not survive currently,
Speaker 2: but we took one class and like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: maybe gonna be our personalities now. Like I totally understand
Speaker 2: the appeal of that also as someone who's like I
Speaker 2: want to do what we always do, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3: And like the government, who was like the governments into everything,
Speaker 3: so we need to avoid the government, even.
Speaker 1: Though we're saying less and you're getting paid from the gun.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, right, that's one of I remember after the
Speaker 3: time my dad asked told me to do that. That
Speaker 3: was one of things I came back. I was like, wait,
Speaker 3: what this doesn't make We're going and then the government
Speaker 3: isn't everything, but yeah, we're going to take money for okay,
Speaker 3: make it make sense.
Speaker 2: It doesn't right right right?
Speaker 1: Wow, So you're in deep you like you now are
Speaker 1: caring for these people like they are your family, and
Speaker 1: in some ways the children are what's kind of the
Speaker 1: straw that breaks the camel's back.
Speaker 3: Honestly, it was when that the new girl came in
Speaker 3: and just how she was treating these kids and there
Speaker 3: was so much chaos going on and everything, and that
Speaker 3: like the whole structure was starting to shift, and once
Speaker 3: again I felt like I don't fit in here, and
Speaker 3: I'm trying to voice these things and he's not listening,
Speaker 3: Like I don't feel safe anymore, and I don't see
Speaker 3: these kids being safe. So I need a solution to
Speaker 3: so kind of be around because Jeremy, he would Our
Speaker 3: relationship was back and forth at times, so to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is weird, this isn't right, and be like, oh no,
Speaker 3: you're making this up, Like he's not like that but
Speaker 3: so I was like, Okay, I need to be close
Speaker 3: enough so he can still maybe take time to see
Speaker 3: it on his own, but have my own space that
Speaker 3: I set the rules. That's distance enough, a safe place
Speaker 3: for these kids to escape too.
Speaker 2: And what did that look like.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be like an apartment, my own job, an
Speaker 3: apartment nearby that it was this place to be like, hey,
Speaker 3: we'll take them for the weekend, We'll take them for
Speaker 3: a few days or anything, and they can stay here
Speaker 3: for a little bit, to set up a good structure
Speaker 3: for these kids, like, hey, this is well running water
Speaker 3: looks like Look, it's amazing, flashing the toilet looks like
Speaker 3: phenomenal things like that. That's like, these are decent human
Speaker 3: things we need. Right.
Speaker 2: Was Ron upset, like how did he react when you
Speaker 2: got a place?
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't get a place.
Speaker 2: Oh you didn't.
Speaker 3: I didn't. That's what I wanted, and that's why I
Speaker 3: started looking forward. That's where he was like, Oh, that's
Speaker 3: a good idea. But then an hour later or so,
Speaker 3: or maybe the next day, he's like that place isn't good.
Speaker 2: Not that place, not that pay Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to get back into the medical field
Speaker 3: and Abo. I was like, you know what, I'll take
Speaker 3: any job. He goes, Oh, you're not good enough for
Speaker 3: that job. You're not good enough. You don't let your
Speaker 3: skills of being a medical assistant sit here at McDonald's
Speaker 3: or a factory where I'm thinking start low and work
Speaker 3: my way up. Let me just get out there again.
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh no, no, no, no, you need something that.
Speaker 2: Oh. He was like, you're you're too good for that job. Yes, yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: What was the thing that actually got you out?
Speaker 3: So I remember one morning I was putting a crap
Speaker 3: ris of may out to different places in indeed in
Speaker 3: New York, and I was like, Okay, if I'm meant
Speaker 3: to come back home to PA, I'm going to apply
Speaker 3: for a job down here that if I'm meant to
Speaker 3: have this job, then I'm meant to leave and everything.
Speaker 3: And so that was in the back of my mind.
Speaker 3: And the thing that I really solidified it is one
Speaker 3: night I was couldn't sleep and I'll let people know
Speaker 3: I was popping nine ten minut drill Night Justice sleep
Speaker 3: because I whoa, yeah, I could not sleep there. It
Speaker 3: was awful. And I came out and I was like
Speaker 3: I'm not happy here. I need to go and everything,
Speaker 3: and he goes, well, you're not happy here. She just
Speaker 3: had more sex with Jeremy. And I can teach you.
Speaker 3: I can teach you how oh.
Speaker 2: My god, what a creep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that I was like, I need to get out.
Speaker 3: I need to get out. I don't know how. I
Speaker 3: am terrified, but I need to get out. And for
Speaker 3: me getting out was still, Let's find an apartment, let's
Speaker 3: find a job, let's do still okay, I still want
Speaker 3: to pease them and have Jeremy be close enough and everything,
Speaker 3: but I need to get out and now.
Speaker 1: And did you find I mean you, It sounds like
Speaker 1: you got the job in PA maybe and then ended up.
Speaker 3: So that's an interesting story. I came down for my
Speaker 3: best friend's engagement party, and people knew down here in
Speaker 3: PA life wasn't great, that I was not happy. But
Speaker 3: that weekend I started letting the truth out, telling people
Speaker 3: how awful it was, telling my parents how awful it
Speaker 3: was that I am thirteen thousand dollars now in debt.
Speaker 3: This is all the crap, like there's no running it
Speaker 3: look like I can't flush the toilet. They're the running
Speaker 3: or I can't drink like all this things. And my
Speaker 3: parents were like, you're staying You're not going back home,
Speaker 3: and not everyone's parents is able to do this, and
Speaker 3: not everyone's stories is like this. But my parents were like,
Speaker 3: we're taking the thirteen thousand dollars and paying that off.
Speaker 3: You pay off cutting that off. We will figure out
Speaker 3: how to go get your stuff, we will figure out
Speaker 3: how to get up there, but you're staying here. And
Speaker 3: about a few weeks later is when I got the
Speaker 3: job I currently have right now.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And it was in PA And did you ever see
Speaker 1: any of these people again or was it that this
Speaker 1: was kind of hard face?
Speaker 3: I still saw them a little bit over Skype because
Speaker 3: even though I knew I was safe, I knew this
Speaker 3: is where I need to be. I that fall was
Speaker 3: still there, the work souid, the brain mush and everything
Speaker 3: that was still there. So it was slowly coming out
Speaker 3: of that and being like switching wrong voice to my
Speaker 3: voice again because every time I would hear Ron's voice,
Speaker 3: hear him in the back of my mind and I
Speaker 3: had to switch that. So jumping back into therapy, really
Speaker 3: sharing the truth of all the crap I was in
Speaker 3: at about A year later is when I fully cut
Speaker 3: off contact with them.
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, and did you still feel like you loved Jeremy?
Speaker 2: Like what was how did that resolve?
Speaker 3: So that I did? I very much did, and no
Speaker 3: one knew that I were in the long half. It
Speaker 3: wasn't until the day someone drove up there to get
Speaker 3: some of my stuff that I finally had the guts
Speaker 3: to tell them I'm not coming back. And it was
Speaker 3: the family yeah, and it was yeah, and create the
Speaker 3: people with in crazing Land. And it was under the
Speaker 3: guides of I'm not happy. My mind like, my mind's
Speaker 3: breaking down. I didn't have the terminology to say, I'm
Speaker 3: in a high control group. This is wrong, this is
Speaker 3: all wrong. But I was kind of hiding exactly some
Speaker 3: of what I was feeling. And I wanted him out too.
Speaker 3: I wanted him to come with me because I did
Speaker 3: love him. I did care about those that little girl
Speaker 3: like it's like I can I have my cake and
Speaker 3: eat it too? But when I saw that he was
Speaker 3: not willing to budge, He's like, I'm never moving out
Speaker 3: of state. I Am never. I was like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: care too much about myself that there's someone out there
Speaker 3: who will care for me, who will fight for my
Speaker 3: mental health, who will fight for us to be together,
Speaker 3: that it's not us anymore. There are better things on
Speaker 3: the horizon for me.
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean huge, hugely for you.
Speaker 1: And about your draw to like, uh second life games,
Speaker 1: did that ever come back or.
Speaker 3: A little bit? I shook my head there, but I
Speaker 3: was like a little bit. I mean I still have
Speaker 3: a draw out to fantasy. But this is why, like
Speaker 3: I'm out on aish social media. I won't ever get
Speaker 3: back on social media because even though like Facebook is
Speaker 3: great and of itself, I compare myself to there's way much. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's what starts the discontentment. So instead I am putting
Speaker 3: like like I said, I'll always be into fantasy, but
Speaker 3: putting that drive into writing into like I now play
Speaker 3: Dungeons and Dragons. So if a little bit of fantasy,
Speaker 3: but it's in a constructive way.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, if Ron would just take all
Speaker 1: this energy of like my aunts in the circus and
Speaker 1: write a fucking book.
Speaker 2: Maybe instead of controlling people.
Speaker 4: It's like wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is interesting how many cult leaders do actually write,
Speaker 2: that's true, write a.
Speaker 1: Fantasy novel or I mean he sounds like he's a
Speaker 1: This is all like a sexual predator game at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, and Harry Potter is not going
Speaker 1: to fix any of it. But you know, really there
Speaker 1: has to be more outlets than yeah, just controlling a
Speaker 1: group of people with one toilet.
Speaker 3: Like when I came out, I did blow off the
Speaker 3: roof of that place, because eventually a year later I
Speaker 3: called CPS on these people. I was like, if even
Speaker 3: though I'm not in contact those kids, I want to
Speaker 3: know at least I tried to do something for these kids. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so I did call in everything, and at that time
Speaker 3: I still was kind of connected to people on the
Speaker 3: outside who weren't in that group, who lived around that area,
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh yeah, they came. CCS came and
Speaker 3: people started moving out. Well fast forward to last year
Speaker 3: twenty January twenty twenty four, where a whole new layer
Speaker 3: of stuff happened and that I found out what was
Speaker 3: going on up there, and this is where it was hit.
Speaker 3: There was a nail on the coffin and like, this
Speaker 3: is a high control groo, this is a cult. He
Speaker 3: started bringing new people in. YEP. I was like right
Speaker 3: there that new people are coming in new kids are
Speaker 3: coming in like it. Yep. He could only last on
Speaker 3: his own for so long.
Speaker 2: Right, yep. Wow. I mean I'm glad that the kids
Speaker 2: that were there hopefully moved somewhere a little bit better,
Speaker 2: but that that's so sad that more ended up with him.
Speaker 2: So okay, I just I want to just go back
Speaker 2: to what we were talking about a second ago, because
Speaker 2: you're talking about the difference between engaging with fantasy in
Speaker 2: a way that's like constructive and healthy versus not, And
Speaker 2: I wonder how you would articulate what that difference is.
Speaker 3: So for me, it's when I start getting so sucked in.
Speaker 3: I start and I mean, I'm sure people have a
Speaker 3: vision who have an active imagination have this that they
Speaker 3: when they read a book, Like when I read a book,
Speaker 3: I see everything, I feel what the characters feel. But
Speaker 3: when I start going off the deep end of reading plotline,
Speaker 3: like oh if I made this character to fit in here,
Speaker 3: and I am so immersed that I realize, oh, I'm
Speaker 3: not connecting face to face with these people. I haven't
Speaker 3: really reached out with my real friend right face to
Speaker 3: face friends. I have not texted my boyfriend and say, hey,
Speaker 3: can you get together? This weekend. When I start dropping
Speaker 3: off and not doing touch points and meeting with people,
Speaker 3: that's when I go, Hmm, what's going on underneath that?
Speaker 3: Why am I feeling the need to pool away, isolate
Speaker 3: from my real life and dive and curl up deep
Speaker 3: into these fantasies.
Speaker 2: What's the answer.
Speaker 3: Usually at usually i find I'm like, well, one I
Speaker 3: the seasonal depression bad gets sense of this time I
Speaker 3: really got to be mindful, and it's realizing I haven't
Speaker 3: reached out. I've been so focused on me and what's
Speaker 3: going on in my life, which is that it's good
Speaker 3: to be aware and I want people to know there
Speaker 3: is the aspect that you've got to be emotionally aware
Speaker 3: of what's going on in your life. But when I'm
Speaker 3: so inward so focus on this is bad, this is bad,
Speaker 3: this is bad, and that echoes in my mind that
Speaker 3: I'm not looking out and saying, huh, have I connected
Speaker 3: with Susie because she's going through something too, and I'm
Speaker 3: not doing real life with her word instead of just
Speaker 3: me alone in the mud pit, it's like, hey, we're
Speaker 3: in this together, let's talk about this together. And then
Speaker 3: it brings us out of it, like Okay, now that
Speaker 3: we talk about, let's go for a walk, Let's be active,
Speaker 3: let's do a life together, Let's have these let's get
Speaker 3: let me get out of my mind and connect with
Speaker 3: someone and say, hey, I'm really struggling with X, Y
Speaker 3: and Z. Are you share that with me and we
Speaker 3: can do this together. Because life is hard, but we're
Speaker 3: meant to be in a community, a face to face
Speaker 3: community with humans. That's what we're meant to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, A community that's healthy, that does not feed
Speaker 1: the ego of one person exactly.
Speaker 2: There's not one soul leader who makes all of the
Speaker 2: decisions exactly.
Speaker 3: And I realized that a lot of people struggle with
Speaker 3: the same thing I do, and they're just looking to
Speaker 3: voice it too. It's just that person coming along saying
Speaker 3: I see you and man, today stuck, this was hard. Yeah,
Speaker 3: let me help you in the stuckiness. Let's sit in this,
Speaker 3: let's talk about it, Let's let the emotions out the
Speaker 3: let's go do something. I can just be a simple
Speaker 3: walk because I know when I've been in midst of
Speaker 3: my deep depression, I don't want to do anything but
Speaker 3: just that simple walk in the sun or something, it
Speaker 3: changes everything. It's like, Okay, now I can get through
Speaker 3: a day a little bit more so.
Speaker 1: Damn, I'm so impressed you've you've been on the hero's journey.
Speaker 3: It's therapy, it's I'm so grateful to my therapist long
Speaker 3: for the depailing she has allowed pushed me to do.
Speaker 3: And it's been hard. I don't want people to think
Speaker 3: like every day is great. I still I'm still shocked
Speaker 3: about how I run into some things I can. I'm like, whoa, whoa,
Speaker 3: that really landed heavy, that triggered something? Why? And there's
Speaker 3: another layer, there's another layer, like I'm sure you guys
Speaker 3: have seen that in your own recovery. That it's just
Speaker 3: it's a never ending journey to be willing to face
Speaker 3: that and that stuff it and not use something to
Speaker 3: cover it up totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have any final thoughts, lessons, words of wisdom.
Speaker 3: My words, oh, wisdom would be just what my dad said,
Speaker 3: if you're if for anyone who's listening out there, who's like,
Speaker 3: this doesn't feel right, and it doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: a high control group, it doesn't have to be a cult.
Speaker 3: If you're in relationship, whatever it might be, just stop
Speaker 3: ask questions and listen and observe. Yes, just observe, and
Speaker 3: be willing to go out and just say. And it
Speaker 3: takes a lot of courage and give yourself grace as
Speaker 3: you're walking this journey of recovery or getting out. It
Speaker 3: is hard, but be willing to start trusting that voice
Speaker 3: and go to someone and say and just start building
Speaker 3: a relationship and go, hey, I need help. However that
Speaker 3: looks for you, however that turns those words will for you.
Speaker 3: Be willing to do that and give yourself grace. Like
Speaker 3: I said, as it is a bumpy road, there will
Speaker 3: be times you want to go back. I wanted to
Speaker 3: go back, and that's okay. That is okay. We are
Speaker 3: messy people. You make mistakes and it's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that. I'm so glad you mentioned the
Speaker 2: questions thing again because I because I did mean to
Speaker 2: bring that up and I forgot. It's just just that
Speaker 2: simple thing of allowing yourself to think the unthinkable or
Speaker 2: ask a question that you know maybe you're not supposed
Speaker 2: to getting curious. Like we just see over and over
Speaker 2: and over again, that really is the difference between someone
Speaker 2: who is indoctrinated and somebody who is not. Is being
Speaker 2: allowing yourself to ask the questions, even if it's just inward,
Speaker 2: just to yourself. Yep, you know, to go to those
Speaker 2: scary parts and be curious. That can be the thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that you need.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking to us and for
Speaker 2: reaching out to us. I'm so grateful that you shared
Speaker 2: this story with us. It's so unique and I think
Speaker 2: people will relate to it in a new way, which
Speaker 2: is amazing.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on here if
Speaker 3: I feel honor to be on here.
Speaker 2: Major thanks to Tori, who is a listener of the show,
Speaker 2: for calling in with that story. I am so glad
Speaker 2: that she did. Other fellow listeners, we'd love to hear
Speaker 2: from you as well. Megan, what is your big takeaway
Speaker 2: from Tory's story? Which is really fun phrase to say.
Speaker 1: I think that it's mostly just how we live in
Speaker 1: a society that is not meeting our needs to the
Speaker 1: extent that things such as these and are not cults,
Speaker 1: are second life or all these multitude of apps, games, whatever,
Speaker 1: are able to kind of take a hold of us.
Speaker 4: And it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we we're in the midst of a
Speaker 2: loneliness crisis since everyone is you know, well aware on
Speaker 2: technology and looking to technolo, which can be great for
Speaker 2: helping but also can be even more isolating. And I
Speaker 2: know we've talked about loneliness before and how we've experienced it,
Speaker 2: and it is amazing how you can really like, you
Speaker 2: can have people in your life, you can have friends,
Speaker 2: you can have a partner, and you can still feel
Speaker 2: really lonely. And that, of course is going to lead
Speaker 2: so many of us to want to seek out community
Speaker 2: in whatever form we can find it, people who understand
Speaker 2: us and make us feel heard and like we're not weirdohs.
Speaker 2: And yeah, we live in an era now where it's
Speaker 2: just so much easier for that to be preyed upon, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: but we still need community.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: They can be really meaningful and they are for so
Speaker 2: many people. It's just also important to make sure we're
Speaker 2: connecting with ourselves, with our bodies, with people in real
Speaker 2: life as much as we can, because it's just a different.
Speaker 1: Experience, yea being in nature, Yeah, it's important. She seems
Speaker 1: like she's really found a happy medium, middle ground where yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was impressed.
Speaker 2: A healthy way of engaging in fantasy and yeah.
Speaker 1: Totally, well thanks Tory, Thank you Toy, and thank you
Speaker 1: listeners for spending another week with us.
Speaker 4: If you want to.
Speaker 1: Give us a little gift for the holidays, please go
Speaker 1: rate us five stars.
Speaker 4: And leave us a positive review.
Speaker 1: If you don't want to leave us five stars, don't
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Speaker 1: And as always, remember to follow your.
Speaker 4: Gut, watch out for red flax.
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me as produced
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.