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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived.

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Speaker 2: To you never If you think that one person has

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Speaker 2: all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast

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Speaker 2: about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two fantasizers who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is Tory, former member of a small

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Speaker 2: rural group in upstate New York that she calls crazy Land.

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Speaker 2: She's gonna tell us about how she always loved reading

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Speaker 2: and fantasy growing up, never went to public school, and

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Speaker 2: didn't connect easily with folks in real life when she

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Speaker 2: was young, and how she found her human connection in

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Speaker 2: the online community of the game Second Life, where she

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Speaker 2: could act out her dream of having a family of

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Speaker 2: her own until it began to consume her life.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us how some of the friends she made

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Speaker 1: on there eventually convinced her that she was spending too

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Speaker 1: much time on the game and that she should come

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Speaker 1: live with them in upstate New York.

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Speaker 4: In Crazyland.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how thirteen people were living in one

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Speaker 1: trailer with extremely uncomfortable living conditions like one toilet for

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Speaker 1: all those people, but how it also fulfilled her desire

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Speaker 1: for a family to take care of.

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Speaker 4: At least at first.

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Speaker 2: We'll get into who the leader of Ron was, the

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Speaker 2: financial and sexual abuse that he was committing, how he

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Speaker 2: isolated her from her parents, and how she finally got out.

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Speaker 2: Torri's story is amazing, she is. It's such a modern

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Speaker 2: tale of how one can end up in a cult.

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Speaker 2: It makes it super interesting for me personally, hopefully for

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Speaker 2: y'all too. Before we jump in, what is your culture

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Speaker 2: thing of the week.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've been watching the HBO docuseries Breath of Fire,

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Speaker 1: which is about Kundalini yoga.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you've seen it yet. Heavier you

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Speaker 4: look a little like you not? Okay? Great?

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Speaker 1: So essentially it's about this woman whose name was Katie,

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Speaker 1: but she became Gurujhaga and her rise to the top

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Speaker 1: of Kundalini and Los Angeles and the world. And it

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Speaker 1: hit super close to home because I lived with one

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Speaker 1: of my really good friends who was taking her classes

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Speaker 1: all over the time, who started studying Kundalini. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the people I was hanging out with or some

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Speaker 1: of the authors I liked, were getting certified to teach it,

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Speaker 1: and I felt really lazy for not wanting to do it.

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Speaker 4: Cadalini yoga is like so hard.

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Speaker 1: You would sit for an hour and a half and

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Speaker 1: these yoga classes that you know would have cool celebrities

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and just have your hands above

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Speaker 1: your head for the whole class.

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Speaker 4: I can barely lift a hand.

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Speaker 1: In general, and so I would be like, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do these classes. I don't really like it.

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Speaker 1: But I always had this sense in the back of

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Speaker 1: my head. I was like, well, because you're too lazy

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Speaker 1: to do it. But now as it is exposed for

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Speaker 1: the cult that it is, I'm like, damn, it sometimes

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Speaker 1: comes in handy to not be an overachiever.

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Speaker 2: So true, because.

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Speaker 1: This shit got really crazy, it got really abusive. Spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: she is the Guru is dead. It's such a mess

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Speaker 1: and it's heartbreaking, and I knew some of the people

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Speaker 1: in the doc, and it just it's really unnerving because

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Speaker 1: I was essentially kind of in it.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was.

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Speaker 1: Real and there is something about Kundlim like I believe

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Speaker 1: in Chakras, So it was something that I was very

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Speaker 1: close to and it's kind of freaking me out. The

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Speaker 1: doc is really good and I recommend everybody watch it.

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Speaker 2: I will watch it. I'm so behind on all the docks.

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Speaker 2: I really want to watch the Stanford prison experiment one too,

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Speaker 2: which you know we kind of already I think have

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Speaker 2: talked about on this podcast that that was debunked a bit,

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Speaker 2: and it was the researcher was kind of misleading people

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Speaker 2: as to what actually happened there. But I've not watched

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Speaker 2: it yet, so I want to see all the tea

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Speaker 2: and get all the details. But I have nothing to

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Speaker 2: say about it because I haven't seen it yet.

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Speaker 4: Oh watch it. What about you?

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Speaker 1: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Living in America?

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Speaker 4: Can you believe in America.

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Speaker 2: The election happened? Obviously, everyone's going to have really strong

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Speaker 2: opinions about that one way or another. I think everyone's

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Speaker 2: pretty clear on where I'm at with that, but I

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Speaker 2: just feel like it's important to mention that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're going to be really divided these next four years,

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Speaker 2: hopefully only four years, and it's going to be really

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Speaker 2: tempting to want to just yell at each other and

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Speaker 2: cut off people in our life who who have different

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Speaker 2: views than us, views maybe we even and think are abhorrent.

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Speaker 2: But as we learn over and over again on this show,

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Speaker 2: it's not really an effective tactic to just kind of

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Speaker 2: yell at people and attack them and cut them off.

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Speaker 2: And if you really do want to ever like get

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Speaker 2: through to someone or reach them or get them to

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Speaker 2: hear your perspective, it can be really important to do

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Speaker 2: something we talk about in this episode actually, which is

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Speaker 2: get curious and ask questions and try to stay connected

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Speaker 2: as best you can, even when yeah, there's to try.

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Speaker 1: To stay connected on topics that there's common ground on,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, ask little questions here and there

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Speaker 1: so you can understand where they're coming from. But if

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Speaker 1: the relationship isn't hurting you, then try to keep it alive, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, obviously it's different if somebody is verbally abusing

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Speaker 2: you or like just crediting your existence in some way,

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Speaker 2: but otherwise my understanding of the world. People might disagree,

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Speaker 2: but is that everyone whose views we think are abhorrent

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Speaker 2: from their perspective, given their experience, is given the information

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Speaker 2: they've exposed to, makes sense to them as being reasonable.

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Speaker 2: And most people, some people obviously we know are are

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Speaker 2: actually just straight up racist. But most people I think

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Speaker 2: like have their worldview for a reason and it's not

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Speaker 2: going to change when you yell at them. That's all. Yep.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Thanksgivings coming up. I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of us are going home. So God's speed to

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Speaker 1: all of us on every level of just you know,

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Speaker 1: making it through and keeping connections alive despite our differences,

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Speaker 1: because it's important.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, should we get to the interview.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, let's talk to Tory.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Tori to trust me. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: We have so many questions for you. It's such a

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Speaker 2: unique story. Okay, So first, can you just tell us

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Speaker 2: what your childhood was like and what kind of your

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Speaker 2: understanding of community and religion and such was.

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Speaker 3: Sure I grew up in evangelical Christian home and everything.

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Speaker 3: So community was definitely surrounded by church, and my church

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Speaker 3: at that time was very small, so it was very

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Speaker 3: inward us focused, not outward. So a lot of my

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Speaker 3: childhood was friends from church. Homeschooled as well then like

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Speaker 3: around third grade, much of a private Christian school, so church

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Speaker 3: like community shifted then. And I I'm a one of

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Speaker 3: seven kids, big family, so that was also like growing up,

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Speaker 3: I just felt very outcast in my family, like I

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Speaker 3: didn't belong and there was something wrong with me that

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Speaker 3: I did not fit in. I was not enough. I

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Speaker 3: very much from a young age. My mom would say

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Speaker 3: I had a huge fantasy mind. I was fantasy oriented.

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Speaker 3: I read a lot, so my mind was outward like

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Speaker 3: inward but outward at the same time, like not in

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Speaker 3: the real world type of thing. And so it's very

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Speaker 3: hard for me to relate to people, rebate to friends,

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Speaker 3: especially since I didn't go to a public school. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I never went to a public like brick and mortar

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Speaker 3: public school. It was always homeschool with private Christian school.

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Speaker 3: Graduated from a cyber school, so didn't have those friendships

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Speaker 3: that most people have growing up.

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Speaker 1: What type of books were you reading, because for me,

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Speaker 1: it was like Sweet Valley High.

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Speaker 4: Babysitters Club. Were you were you also there?

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Speaker 2: I was going to say Harry Potter.

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Speaker 3: I was. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. Yeah, powder

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Speaker 3: fan still for the day, okay Potter, Sweet Dot High

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Speaker 3: of course, more Angles, wid Yeah, everything, It'sycopleedia Brown, the

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Speaker 3: Treehouse Club.

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Speaker 2: The box Car Kids, the box Car Children.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now we're just naming every book.

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Speaker 1: Well, I really relate to that, and it set up

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Speaker 1: some of your story later. So yeah, okay, yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: like kind of living in your hat a little bit

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Speaker 1: through some books.

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Speaker 2: What era was this, Like, what year did you graduate?

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Speaker 3: I graduated two thousand and nine. So I also grew

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Speaker 3: up in late nineties early two thousands where the Internet

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Speaker 3: was coming live. So because it was hard for me

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Speaker 3: to relate face to face, the computer set up a

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Speaker 3: lot of my relationships, right, like chat rooms, AOL and

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Speaker 3: Semessenger for those. Yeah, you don't know that. Like grew

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Speaker 3: up with that looking for my people because I felt

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Speaker 3: like I have my people here in real life.

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Speaker 2: Oh this is okay. I'm so glad you're here talking

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Speaker 2: to us, because this is such a particular type of

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Speaker 2: isolation that I feel like we don't really get to

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Speaker 2: hear about that much, but it's so so, so common,

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Speaker 2: and I relate to it a lot. Like I was

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Speaker 2: homeschooled for part of high school as well. I graduated

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Speaker 2: from homeschool, and I spent all of my hours on

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Speaker 2: the internet, all of them.

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Speaker 4: I know you both had wild MySpace page.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's all I'm saying. Oh yeah, you were

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Speaker 2: very glary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah your signature, that's all I'm going to say.

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Speaker 3: If I was mad at you. You're not my top

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Speaker 3: eight friend.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Oh.

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Speaker 2: My god, that is definitely so. How old were you

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Speaker 2: I guess when you discovered Second life? And how did

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Speaker 2: you discover second life?

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Speaker 3: So before I get into second life, I always also

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Speaker 3: did online role playing through Zanga, the online journal blog.

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Speaker 3: So I created these narratives for many different characters I

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Speaker 3: would get a plot line from, like the Harry Potter series.

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Speaker 3: I create a character to fit into the Harry Potter series.

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Speaker 3: So really creating this fantasy mind setting that up in

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Speaker 3: my head, continue that well into high school, early college change.

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Speaker 3: I want to say about twenty three, twenty four something

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Speaker 3: like that, when the role playing with Era was ending,

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Speaker 3: people didn't want to do anymore. Friend I met on there,

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Speaker 3: It's like, hey, I have this sight called Second Life.

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Speaker 3: It's this game that like role playing come to life,

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Speaker 3: is how she explained it to me. You can make it.

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Speaker 3: Second Life is that online avatar game. You can make

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Speaker 3: it as real as you want or as much as

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Speaker 3: the game as you want. I dove in it headfirst

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Speaker 3: and made it literally my second life.

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Speaker 2: Okay. I played Second Life like a couple of times

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh. I was like, there's no

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Speaker 2: way I can keep playing this because this will destroy

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Speaker 2: my entire life.

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Speaker 1: Can you guys give me some I have not yet

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Speaker 1: been on Second Life. I might join it now after

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Speaker 1: this conversation, but.

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Speaker 3: Like, careful, yeah, I can sweep you in.

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Speaker 4: What's the draw?

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Speaker 1: Like you get to live the life that you're not

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Speaker 1: living in your every whole life. Okay, So are the

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Speaker 1: people you're interacting with? Are they real people or are

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Speaker 1: they characters?

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Speaker 4: And both?

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Speaker 3: The real people behind this are these avatars. Some are

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Speaker 3: very old, some are very young. The draw like the

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Speaker 3: draw for me ever since I can remember, And I

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Speaker 3: don't know if this was because my evangelical Christian background.

240
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Speaker 3: What you're supposed to do? I'm doing air quotes for

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Speaker 3: those who can't see or because this was my DNA.

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Speaker 3: But I always wanted to be married, always wanted to

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Speaker 3: have kids, always wanted to be a stay at home mom.

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Speaker 3: That was my thing, that was what I wanted, And

245
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Speaker 3: being the early twenties, I was like, what's wrong with me?

246
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,559
Speaker 3: I'm not married, I don't have kids. All my friends

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Speaker 3: are like what's wrong with me? And also it hit

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Speaker 3: that I'm not enough because all these people are even

249
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Speaker 3: though I have a full time job, I'm not content.

250
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Speaker 3: I'm not launching. So Second Life drew that in because

251
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Speaker 3: I found my community of misfits and I got married,

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Speaker 3: I had kids. Even though these avatar kids were probably

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Speaker 3: people older than me on this game, it didn't matter.

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Speaker 4: I had family air quotes again.

255
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Speaker 3: That were calling me mom, I have a husband. I

256
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 3: was able to be a DJ on this game. I

257
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Speaker 3: was a vampire on this game. Like everything I could

258
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Speaker 3: do in this in this second life, I couldn't do

259
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Speaker 3: my real world, and I just lived my full life

260
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Speaker 3: revolving around the computer. Wow, so work came home right

261
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Speaker 3: straight on a computer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like having an alter ego almost track.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you think, yeah, you think I'm like a normal girl.

264
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Speaker 1: Actually I'm a vampire. I have twenty children, and I

265
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Speaker 1: am awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, I just want to hear a

267
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Speaker 2: little bit more about that, like second life lifestyle, because

268
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Speaker 2: I'm sure there will be plenty of people who've never played.

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Speaker 2: Like how much time were you spending on there? And

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Speaker 2: how much time is like your digital husband spending on there,

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Speaker 2: Like how much actual interaction is happening?

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Speaker 3: Very much like every moment I was not working, I

273
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Speaker 3: was not with the few face and face friends I

274
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Speaker 3: had and family, it was all spent on this computer.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: He my second life husband and I were actually talking

277
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Speaker 3: outside of it. So since we were all about the game,

278
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Speaker 3: we would be calling each other. We were playing to

279
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Speaker 3: meet each other each other in real life like, so

280
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Speaker 3: it was an extension of this game. And these people

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Speaker 3: I met on their air quote again met they Some

282
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Speaker 3: of them had my phone number. I was calling them.

283
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Speaker 3: There were people from all the way over on the

284
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Speaker 3: other side world, England, Australia I was talking to. I

285
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Speaker 3: was figuring out how I could live my real life

286
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Speaker 3: to commendate my second life like I was doing real

287
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Speaker 3: life stuff to a piece of parents, a peace, my friends, yes,

288
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Speaker 3: I'll go out and do this, but I was literally

289
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,960
Speaker 3: looking my watch counting down the hour so I could

290
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Speaker 3: get back on the game.

291
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Speaker 2: And what were you doing for work at that time.

292
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Speaker 3: I'm a medical assistant, so I was working at a

293
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Speaker 3: primary care office, and so I was doing the real

294
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 3: life thing making the money, but I woul kind of

295
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Speaker 3: wait to get home to get back on my computer,

296
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Speaker 3: back to my people.

297
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Speaker 2: Wow, I mean it makes so much sense. There have

298
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Speaker 2: been a number of people in my life who've had

299
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Speaker 2: a very similar lifestyle for a while, and fortunately it's

300
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Speaker 2: eventually we're like, Okay, this is taking too much of

301
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Speaker 2: my time. Correct. It's crazy how how seductive it is,

302
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Speaker 2: because you would think you would think, like, well, it's

303
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Speaker 2: just a game that's not your real life, so why

304
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Speaker 2: would it be addictive like that? But it is, so

305
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Speaker 2: it really is.

306
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Speaker 3: Especially for that core belief I had that I'm not enough.

307
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,360
Speaker 3: I am behind this computer. Who I am in real

308
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 3: life is not enough. I felt like an outcast. I

309
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 3: didn't fit in. I wasn't comfortable in my own skin

310
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Speaker 3: at all, to be the nerd, the huge fantasy person,

311
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Speaker 3: the person who is fearly into Harry Potter, all of that,

312
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like to be that because I wasn't

313
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Speaker 3: into athletics. I was a musical Like the tangible things

314
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Speaker 3: I thought were good in the world, the tangible gifts

315
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Speaker 3: I didn't have, so of course who am I? So

316
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Speaker 3: that's why Second Life really tapped into that.

317
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Speaker 2: It makes so much sense. And I have to mention

318
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 2: that my friends and I would go on there because

319
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Speaker 2: you can have a sexual life somewhat on Second Life

320
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Speaker 2: as well, and for you know, like a little former

321
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 2: Mormon girl, I was like, I can do what.

322
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,480
Speaker 1: Yep much So yeah, what does what do you mean?

323
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Speaker 3: Lowo?

324
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Speaker 2: How old are you? I don't know this, I was

325
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Speaker 2: probably nineteen or something.

326
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Speaker 4: Wow.

327
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Speaker 2: So like in theory, like this is a great opportunity

328
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 2: for all kinds of people who can't connect us easily

329
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 2: in real life or for whatever reason, just have this

330
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 2: hobby to like act out some of their fantasies.

331
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Speaker 3: And act out disabilities.

332
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Speaker 2: There's nothing inherently wrong with spending a lot of time

333
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 2: on a game, but you know, it's just maybe if

334
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,360
Speaker 2: it becomes consuming and diminishes your quality of life outside

335
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 2: of the game, perhaps, although this will be a larger

336
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,680
Speaker 2: conversation we'll see as AI like as virtual reality becomes

337
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 2: more prevalent, Like, we'll see how that evolves. So how

338
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 2: did you finally decide like, Okay, I got to get

339
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 2: off this game.

340
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 3: It's actually the people I ended up moving in with

341
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 3: up to State, New York towards the end of my

342
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 3: time on They're they're like, well, if you are super

343
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,640
Speaker 3: addicted to this game, you should not be on here.

344
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 3: You need to take a break. This is really eating

345
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 3: up all your time, it's eating up all your money.

346
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,160
Speaker 3: You need to get out.

347
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 2: The other people on the game are telling you this, whoa.

348
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,439
Speaker 4: And do you have to pay for like per hour on?

349
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: Or it's like you buy food in the game or

350
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 1: what what are you we're paying?

351
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 3: Like, if you want good clothes, if you want your

352
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 3: avatar to look amazing, you got to put some money

353
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:32,159
Speaker 3: into it.

354
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:33,880
Speaker 4: Got it? Okay? Okay.

355
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,240
Speaker 1: So the other people playing the game with you are like,

356
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,120
Speaker 1: you're playing this game too much.

357
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, that's a little wake up call.

358
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 1: I see where you're where you're at Okay.

359
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,960
Speaker 2: And these are people you trusted already and had a

360
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,680
Speaker 2: relationship with on there right.

361
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,919
Speaker 3: Yes, I was starting to get to know them. I

362
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,160
Speaker 3: was starting we were having conversations of like, hey, let's

363
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,080
Speaker 3: meet outside of second life, let's meet face to face

364
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 3: and everything. So we were starting to build that relationship

365
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 3: outside a second life. And when it was immersing there,

366
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,840
Speaker 3: I trusted. I was like, oh you like me? I

367
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,280
Speaker 3: trust you, Like there is that false sense of intimacy

368
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 3: behind me that I was like, Oh, okay, even though

369
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 3: I've never met you, I don't know, I know you

370
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 3: live somewhere in New York. I trust you because we

371
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,399
Speaker 3: spent all the time on computer by noble what your

372
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,239
Speaker 3: face looks like? So yeah, I trust them instantly. I

373
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 3: was like, okay, yeah, I'll get off of here.

374
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:29,280
Speaker 2: Why not?

375
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're offering you a different side quest, so

376
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 1: to speak, come meet us in person.

377
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly were those two things in the same breath.

378
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,880
Speaker 2: Was it like, hey, you, you spent so much time

379
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 2: on there, why don't you get off and come to

380
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,639
Speaker 2: this place with us? Yeah?

381
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 4: It was.

382
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 2: They're so smart recruiting tegt Yeah yeah.

383
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 3: So I didn't help with them right away. The interesting fans,

384
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 3: I can be very all of them, very black and white.

385
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,159
Speaker 3: So when I got off to this game, I was

386
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 3: like culture getting rid of everyone, And it wasn't until

387
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 3: like I was kind of creeping, like watching them from

388
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 3: the sidelines to see what they're doing. But it wasn't

389
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 3: until about a year or so later that they're like, Hey,

390
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 3: we haven't talked to you forever. What I'm going to

391
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 3: reach back out to you. How are you doing? We

392
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 3: got off the game too, we still want to meet you,

393
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 3: how like started all that tactics again. And I was

394
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 3: still in the place in my life where it was

395
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 3: still very discontent. I was like, not married, didn't have kids,

396
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 3: was not happy with my job. So perfect way for

397
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:38,439
Speaker 3: them to lure me in.

398
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 2: I got to say, it's kind of brilliant going to

399
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 2: games like Second Life to find people to recruit, because

400
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 2: you're going to you're probably more likely to find an

401
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 2: isolated or lonely population on their people who are in

402
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 2: search of community and maybe haven't had as much of

403
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 2: it in person and would be maybe excited at the

404
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 2: opportunity to have that in person.

405
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 3: Exactly.

406
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, those little fuckers.

407
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, and yeah, yeah, you can be surrounded by people,

408
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you were one of seven, but they're not

409
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 1: satisfying relationships and so they know, you know, hey, people

410
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 1: on Second Life might want to join us in real life.

411
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 3: Yep, yep.

412
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: Okay, when they started reaching back out, what made you decide? Hey,

413
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 2: this place they're describing sounds like worth going to.

414
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 3: There was a guy involved and the kid. Yep, yep,

415
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 3: there's a guy there. I started talking to and because

416
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 3: I was craving a relationship and he had a daughter, Boom,

417
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 3: my instant fantasy come true, right, fying sealed delivered. So

418
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 3: when I traveled up there Labor Day weekend twenty sixteen

419
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 3: and I saw him with this little girls, I was like,

420
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, this is it. This is where I

421
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,719
Speaker 3: need to be. I'm done. These are like my relationship,

422
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 3: here's my family. I've been dying to have.

423
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: Find me up and you like a black mirror Hallmark movie.

424
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, okay, what were you about to say, Lilo? Sorry,

425
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,159
Speaker 2: you knew them before you went, or you met them

426
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 2: once you went.

427
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 3: I knew them before and when I reconnected with them,

428
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 3: we started doing zoom call and that zoom skype calls.

429
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 3: Zoom wasn't done, that skiped calls, faith timed, We were

430
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 3: doing all that things. I started talking to them like

431
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 3: every minute, every day when I was off work. Basically

432
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 3: what I did in second life. Just now in real life,

433
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 3: they started becoming the people. They started becoming the ones

434
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 3: I filtered everything through.

435
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 2: Wow, how did they market this community that you now

436
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: called Crazyland? How did they present this place to you?

437
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 3: We're all misfits too, We're all people who get it.

438
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 3: We were outcasts in our family. We didn't sit in anywhere.

439
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 3: We are just like you, and we all build our

440
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 3: small community, this community together. We're a family that was

441
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 3: very strong in there. That's the buzzword. We're a family.

442
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 3: It might not be blood family, but we will be

443
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: stronger than your blood family. We will care more for

444
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 3: you than your blood family ever.

445
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 2: We will my God, sign me up. If I'm in

446
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 2: your position, yep, one, why would I not go?

447
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 3: And they were like, you're you're not this because growing

448
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 3: up also, I've always wanted to learn things like guys do,

449
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 3: Like I want to know how to change the oil

450
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,479
Speaker 3: in a car. I want to know how to use

451
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 3: carpentry tools, like I want to do that get my

452
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 3: hands dirty. But no one ever taught me. And they're like, oh,

453
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 3: we got you. We'll teach you how to do these

454
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 3: tangible things that you won't have any guy. You don't

455
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 3: need to rely on any guy, you'll be a strong

456
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: and ended woman. Yeah.

457
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 2: Where was it? Where was crazy Land?

458
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 3: So this place was in upstate New York, about an

459
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: hour north northeast something north of Albany. It's in just

460
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 3: below the outer on the mountains, so you feel like

461
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 3: up this mountain and it's ran between Glotterusgoe and Kroga

462
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 3: Lake in it does gorgeous. New York State itself is gorgeous.

463
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 3: I kind of get over driving back and forth seeing

464
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: the fall foliage. I was there during the winter seeing

465
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: the snow cap like mountains in the distant, gorgeous, gorgeous place.

466
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: But my the area I lived in was the poorest

467
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: place in New York.

468
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: And just to clarify something you mentioned in your conversation

469
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: earlier as well, this was not Nexium, despite it being

470
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: your Albany totally unrelated.

471
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 3: Not xim though. It's interesting because I was there at

472
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 3: the same time Nexium was starting to be blown up.

473
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 3: Oh it was in When I heard that on was like,

474
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, and I am convinced. The head guy

475
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 3: of my group, because he lived in Renseleer, where Keith

476
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 3: Vanieri is from, was like, I would not be surprised

477
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 3: if he knew Keith or read some information about him,

478
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 3: had some like somehow because there was very similar things.

479
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 3: You would say, can.

480
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 2: That is so interesting because my my cult leader growing up,

481
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: and Keith Ranieri also like would like observe each other

482
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: because they knew about each other. It's so they like

483
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: really do model. They like watch each other and like

484
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 2: model their own ship after the other person, which is

485
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: so fucking weird.

486
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. Watching the Bow was like,

487
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 3: oh wait, what wow?

488
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: Interesting? Can you tell us what was actually happening there?

489
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: Like physically, what were they doing on the property? Was

490
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: a business?

491
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 4: Right, looked like too and it was this guy.

492
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: It was awful. So but even though I knew it

493
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 3: was awful, I could see it. I want the audience

494
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 3: to know. I was so captivated by having this family,

495
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: having this guy and this kid, so the awful crap

496
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 3: in the background. I was like, I can kind of

497
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 3: make do with this because I have my family. That

498
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: that was the big draw at that time. So at

499
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 3: one point they are there thirteen of us living in

500
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: a single wide trailer.

501
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: Whoa, yeah, how it happened.

502
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 3: It was insane, But that's why we call it crazy Land.

503
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 3: Thank you mom.

504
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

505
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: Towards the end, the head guy got a camper and

506
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: some people were living in the camper and we also

507
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: had about it seven kids from me and just a newborn,

508
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,360
Speaker 3: all the way up to seven living there too. Yeah,

509
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 3: I see you all is fair. Yeah, so you're like family. Yeah,

510
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 3: so it felt like it was a commune. It really

511
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: was a little commune on painted plywood floors and walls.

512
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 3: The bathrooms could only the toys might be flushed once

513
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 3: a day, so very poor living conditions.

514
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

515
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: So one toilet for thirteen people that can only be

516
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: flushed one time per day, I.

517
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: Like physically can't have you guys aren't pooping like how.

518
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 3: They There was, there was, and there will be times.

519
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, I guess I'm going outside. I'm

520
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 3: not going in that thing.

521
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: I was gonna say that at that point I would

522
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: rather just do that. That's crazy pretty much.

523
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: Yea.

524
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 3: And the second system hadn't been pumped like two years

525
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 3: or something like that, with the wanting the run, yeah,

526
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 3: the running rope water, this is where the layers come.

527
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: This is yeah yeah wow.

528
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm I'm with you, like

529
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: you got the man you got the kid. I see,

530
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: it's kind of like camping and there's l i'n't like camping,

531
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: and I'm codependent.

532
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: So I can fix everything.

533
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: I have the money.

534
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 3: What we can change this. Sign me up. I can

535
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 3: rescue all these people. I have the answers. We can

536
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: change all of this. But we the running water, like

537
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: we couldn't drink the water or anything like that. We

538
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 3: had to actually go to like a stream to get

539
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: actually water we could drink with and everything to cook

540
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: with during the winters. We had. They called it the dragon.

541
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 3: I'm doing air worlds. This is this huge like woodstove

542
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 3: type thing that at times like everyone, I want people

543
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 3: to know everyone's on government assistance. I'm not dissing anyone

544
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 3: who's on that, but these people were definitely misusing the system.

545
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: They could have easily worked. They took. They manipulated system

546
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: so they could take what they want. So those who

547
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 3: are on it those who need it, and these people

548
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: didn't need it, and they were using it for those

549
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: who didn't need it. I was so I was mad

550
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 3: about it. At the same time, I started be one

551
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: of them. I got on assistance too, so when the

552
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 3: wood would run out, we would have to go out

553
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 3: chop the wood and like call it in and stack

554
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: the wood and throw it into Yeah.

555
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: What was kind of the reasoning of we need to

556
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: be on assistance because we're so busy.

557
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 3: Our draw is the government owes us. We have worked

558
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: so hard, we have this hard, crappy life. They owe us.

559
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean listen, get I get the logic. Yeah, yeah,

560
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: A lot of people I know would probably feel the

561
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: same way. But didn't you mention that there was some

562
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: kind of machinery.

563
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: Yes, so they had they called they said they had

564
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: a quote unquote landscaping snow plowing company. They really didn't.

565
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 3: That was their way to get a little bit of

566
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: money here and there when we were really like when

567
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 3: the snap ran out, when everything ran out, we needed

568
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: this money or when my money he ran out. That's

569
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: the little income they had here and there to get

570
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: their quote unquote tax right off. So they there's this

571
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 3: big plot of land next door that they had a

572
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 3: dump truck, they had a bacco, They had tons of

573
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: tractors and trucks that were always broken down. We always

574
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: had to fix them and everything. So the front of

575
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: this lot looked kind of nice. But because it backed

576
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: up into the woods. All the crap and garbage was

577
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: hidden within the woods, Like I wan't be surprised that

578
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: there was bery bodies on this land like dead.

579
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: As Yeah, this is wild. So how many adults actually

580
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: lived there at that time?

581
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 3: About thirteen of us? Six seven?

582
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: And can you tell us who the man will call

583
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: Ron was?

584
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, so he and his wife all call her

585
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: Nilly no one. Ever, they referred to everyone as either

586
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 3: brother's sister or a daughter son, and only one child

587
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: there was actually blood related. So when you came into

588
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 3: this family and they set up the premise of everyone

589
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: who came there, like I said the war was an outcast,

590
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 3: they're like, oh the family, your family kicked you out,

591
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: you don't have a place to go. Come here, we'll

592
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 3: give you a place to stay, which, in and of

593
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: him South is it's great, that's wonderful. But they never

594
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 3: set up people to be like, Okay, let's help you

595
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: get a job, let's help you move out to get rent.

596
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: So everyone's day under that guise of my brother, sister

597
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 3: or daughter son. So he referred to me as his sister.

598
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: The guy I was with will call Jeremy as their son.

599
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: Oh weird, Yeah, okay, what do you think the reason

600
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: for that distinction was.

601
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: That the like I said, the budget's word was the family,

602
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: we are now your family, We are now the people

603
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: you refer to that we are better than that.

604
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: And but here partner being his son, your boyfriend being

605
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: his son, was that? So he was because he was

606
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: needing to be below him, do you think versus his

607
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: brother so.

608
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: Below him because he was there quite a few years

609
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: before me and Jeremy. He's a sweetheart, but he was

610
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: also a bit on the slower side, so he was

611
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: taken advantage of in that way. And he was also

612
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 3: very hard working and everything. And he had known Ron

613
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 3: all his years, so he was kind of like that

614
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: dad figure to him. Okay, and that's where the sun

615
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: came along. But when I came along, it's like, oh, no,

616
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: you're like my sister. I'm amaw you do. You're like

617
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 3: my sister. But yet the relationship we had was very

618
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: it was not brother sister whatsoever, whatsoever.

619
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yikes.

620
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: Were all of the people in this community were they

621
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: also playing the game at some point and did any

622
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: those relationships reflect what the relationships have been in the game.

623
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were all playing the game, and a lot

624
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: of the girls that were there were basically darters.

625
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 4: Yeahs and air quotes, got.

626
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 3: You yeah, daughter and air quotes yeah.

627
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: On the game they were daughters.

628
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: They were daughters. They were on hos of air quotes, darters.

629
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 3: Everyone eventually had avatar in this game. The guys eventually

630
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: like feeded out. They're like, we don't want we actually

631
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: want to go out and do real life things. And

632
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: when I say quote air quotes again real life, it's

633
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: let's tinker around on the dump truck. Let's use this

634
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: bacco to say we're doing stuff around the house, but

635
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 3: we're really not. So everyone eventually had an avatar in

636
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: this game.

637
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: Was there just one computer? I mean, I'm just like,

638
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: how was their internet if there wasn't even Yeah.

639
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: Before I came along, I'm not sure where the money

640
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: came in. I had my suspicions of who was a

641
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: cash cow before me, But when I came in, I was.

642
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: I had the role of the cash cow. I had

643
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 3: the cash, I have the means. But when you were

644
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: walking to the trailer, there was like a sixty and

645
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: flat screen TV. So yeah, so they very much prided

646
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 3: their things. There were two computers, one was Nelly's computer

647
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 3: that that was hers. But then there was this other

648
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: computer everyone could rotate using. And some people have laptops

649
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 3: the would use the game for. But so they whenever

650
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: they got their tax right off, it would go, I

651
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 3: want to go into the house. It would go into

652
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 3: their stuff all in the game. Yeah, into the game

653
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 3: and actually physical stuff like new TV, new Xbox, new computer.

654
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: New laptop, but not a toilet that you can flash

655
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: more than exactly wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

656
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 4: Second life was more important than first life.

657
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: Stuck exactly exactly.

658
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: Dad, Ron and Ron used second line too.

659
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did when I was on there, use it wholeheartedly.

660
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: But when I left, he didn't feel the need to anymore.

661
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: And he was the one who reached out to me.

662
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: Oh I was yes.

663
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Ron's kind of like going on here searching

664
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: for people who have motivation, real jobs, caring and bringing

665
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: them to this world.

666
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: I want to put it past them.

667
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but once you were there, you were not working anymore.

668
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: I told everyone back here in Pennsylvania that I was.

669
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: I was part time because when I was planning to

670
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 3: move up there, I was looking for a job. I

671
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 3: was trying. I was trying to find that job, and

672
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,479
Speaker 3: there actually was a part time job around the town

673
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: I was living in. I was going to be living

674
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 3: in up there, and so I used that to my advantage, like, oh,

675
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: I can say this is my job. I can say

676
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 3: this is where I'm getting So my mom believed it,

677
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: Hope Live and Singer. My dad didn't. But my mom

678
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 3: was like, oh cool, even though she also her shit

679
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: radar was up. She's like, this is crap.

680
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: This is so wrong. Were any of the other adults

681
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: recruited from Second Life to come or was it just you?

682
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: Just me, okay, okay, I've just never heard of this.

683
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: I've just never heard. I mean, it must happen all

684
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: the time, I've just never heard of it. It's wild.

685
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: I'm surprised they didn't keep you working to keep your

686
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: more money flowing. But I also realized that they probably

687
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: don't want you speaking to other people outside of the

688
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: group exactly.

689
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 3: Like when I visited there September twenty sixteen, and I

690
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 3: was planning to move at the beginning of the year

691
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen. But going back and forth, I was

692
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: there when was every weekend, driving from PA all the

693
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 3: way up there every weekend. It was my escape from reality.

694
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 3: It was my escape from life here in Pennsylvania. Thought

695
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: I ate it at the time that eventually I allowed

696
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: them to convince me so much to just run away

697
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: up there in the middle of the night in November eight,

698
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, and they just were like, And my parents

699
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 3: came about two weeks later for my birthday just because

700
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 3: they wanted to see. They had no idea what was

701
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: going on.

702
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: My mom.

703
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 3: There's like two parts of his story. It's my part,

704
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 3: my mom's part. My mom's amazing. She was fighting for

705
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 3: me so hard down here in PI. Love my mom

706
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: so much that when she saw I left my apartment,

707
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 3: she like broke down and started screaming and wailing in

708
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: my apartment when she saw it. Just yeah, yeah, Mom

709
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 3: was great. But they came up there, and I was

710
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: trying so hard to get them on board with this,

711
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 3: but we're like, we're not having it. That's a shit.

712
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 3: It was interesting looking back that I can see Ron

713
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 3: in the distance watching my parents parents like a hawk.

714
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 3: They were not He was not happy. My parents were there, like,

715
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: He's not gonna say no, don't come see your daughter,

716
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: because they just wanted to see what I was living in.

717
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: They just wanted to see that physically I'm still okay

718
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: and not being held against my will. He was like

719
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 3: very distant, not the wrong I knew. He was like

720
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 3: very personable, was talking to me, saying all these like

721
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 3: things about his past, philosophogal talks to them, everything like that.

722
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 3: But my parents came. Oh no, he wasn't having any

723
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 3: of it. So when they left, and I broke down, going,

724
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: what's wrong? Why don't my parents see how great this is?

725
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 3: Why aren't they on board? And just so upset that

726
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 3: I could see the disconnect between me and my parents,

727
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 3: And deep down I knew why, but I didn't want

728
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: to voice it. He was like, they don't understand this

729
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 3: is good for you. You're going everyone needs to go

730
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 3: through a rebellion phase. We're actually your family, were the

731
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 3: people you need to trust. We are like mom are

732
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: never going to get it, and she can't get on board,

733
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 3: just forget about her. Woh John.

734
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: So that's some real isolating tactics trick. I'm surprised he

735
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: let them come, But it also makes sense to me

736
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 2: because it was so early. I feel like typically it

737
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: takes time to truly convince someone to be fully isolated.

738
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: From their loved ones, and if it was only two

739
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: weeks and he wouldn't have earned that yet.

740
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 3: Yes, I didn't make trips back down to during my

741
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: time up there, like for Christmas. My grandfather died during

742
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: the time that I was up there, and he was

743
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 3: constantly messaging me like he I was on his radar

744
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: that He's like, okay, I know that she comes. She's

745
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: very knowledgeable, like she I'm not fully at that time

746
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: fully streak smart smart, but because I had therapy, I

747
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: had years therapy before this, It's like she knows, she

748
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: is very easily her My brain is bleaking.

749
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 4: Critical thinking thinking.

750
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: Would eventually come back, and he did not want that

751
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: to so he was constantly like, we missed you up here.

752
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: It's not the same without you here, lost without you here.

753
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: Jeremy's lost without you here. You're a huge part of

754
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: this family. We need you back, Like anytime I was away,

755
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: constantly messaging me, make how much it's still attached.

756
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: How much older than you was he.

757
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 3: Probably between ten and fifteen years. He was late thirties

758
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 3: at the time I was up there, got you forties.

759
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: So there's an authority dynamic between you two. I feel

760
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: like we were just talking about this with our guest

761
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: who was on one tree Hill. Why am I blanking

762
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 2: on her name? Meg? And what is her name?

763
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 3: Book?

764
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: It was amazing, right, yeah, so much so yeah, so good.

765
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: But it just that same thing of like when she

766
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: left and she was away, they're just constantly trying to

767
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 2: talk to her, keeping her brain in the group at

768
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: all times, because God forbid she would start questioning or

769
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 2: thinking critically.

770
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 3: You know, yes, yeah, yeah, I related that.

771
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 4: I was gonna say.

772
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: The story reminds me besides the fact that they were

773
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: using her as keep working, don't do Broadway, keep on

774
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: these like shows that pay more money, money, money, money, money,

775
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: So what was like their what was their ultimate want

776
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: from you? Like, what was their purpose with you?

777
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 3: It was that money, Yeah, and to like do up

778
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: the house better, do a little bit things better. But

779
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: they didn't want me to go out and get a

780
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 3: job because they didn't want me to leave. So once

781
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: I also when my bank account was running low, I

782
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: got a credit card and he was the co signer

783
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: on it. So that was the other thing too, that

784
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 3: we could use up all this credit card line and everything.

785
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 3: By it, I was racking up the debt. So even

786
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: though I wasn't. Their money wasn't going in and he

787
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 3: the jobs he did, he would put a little bit

788
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: maybe two hundred three hundred here and there, but it

789
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: was still okay, you have the good credit. Let's get

790
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 3: a credit card. That's easy. We can easily pay it off. Eventually,

791
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 3: we can pay it off with taxes. That was the

792
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 3: big thing. Taxes, taxes, taxes, let's get that tax right off.

793
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: Oh god, which just sigh. Yeah, why are they all

794
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: the same? I know, I want to know a little

795
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: bit more about your understanding now of Ron's psychology. I mean,

796
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: it sounds like he had everybody pretty tightly controlled. Was

797
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: the control part of the appeal for him? Or was

798
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: it all of the appeal for him? You think being

799
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: able to control people?

800
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 3: I think it was all the appeal. Yeah, having people

801
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: to do various little things. He had Nelly, who was

802
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 3: a quote unquote wife taking care of the house, even

803
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: though there was a lot of discontentment in their marriage.

804
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 3: He had the air quotes again, family. He wanted. He

805
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 3: had someone to do the work for him. That was Jeremy.

806
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 3: He was the one doing like he would be up

807
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 3: early outside getting everything prepped. Well, Ron's up till like

808
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: twelve thirty one, oh my god, in the morning and

809
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 3: in the afternoon, because he would have to go to

810
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: bed into like three thirty four in the morning. So

811
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: he had all these people keeping him, having like a

812
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: little as much as you can there a cushion life.

813
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 4: Got you would he be staying up that late playing

814
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 4: the game?

815
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: No, he wasn't playing the game. He was just on TV. God.

816
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's just a lazy little fucker who just

817
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: wants to be a prince and have everyone do everything

818
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: for him.

819
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 3: Yep.

820
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: And what were you Did you feel like in love

821
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: with Jeremy at this time or like.

822
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 3: What I was? I was very much in love, which

823
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 3: is why when I my critical thinking started kicking in,

824
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 3: I didn't want to come running back with the tail

825
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 3: between my legs. I had so much pride. My pride

826
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 3: really got into the way that I was like, I

827
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: love him and these kids, the kids that were there.

828
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: If there wasn't these kids there, I pretty much probably

829
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 3: would have been back sooner. I didn't want. I felt

830
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: like I had to protect these kids because I was

831
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: providing the food, the electricity, the warmth, and I was like,

832
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: I cannot let these kids starve. I don't want anything

833
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 3: to happen. He used those kids manipulative to keep me there.

834
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 3: So between my love for Jeremy and these kids, that's

835
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: what I was like, how can I figure out how

836
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: my cake and eat it too that I can kind

837
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 3: of disconnect from these people, move out of this place

838
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 3: into my own place, but still be close enough to

839
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: kind of be a part of it where Jeremy won't

840
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: be upset, that we can still be in but not

841
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 3: fully in.

842
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 4: Did you try to find that happy medium?

843
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 3: I did? I love and apartments. I started looking for

844
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 3: jobs and he was not happy. He would say, he

845
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 3: was like, oh, yeah, you're not happy. You need to

846
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: go on work. You need to do some work. Who

847
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 3: knows when we'll get our landscaped, be company up in

848
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: the spring or whatever. Yeah, go out and find a

849
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 3: part of time job. But when I would be like, oh,

850
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 3: look at this place, He's like, Oh, I don't know

851
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 3: about the place for you guys. I don't know if

852
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,959
Speaker 3: the daughter she would really like that there?

853
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: You know, like, yeah, whose kids were they other than

854
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: Jeremy's kid? Who did they belong to?

855
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: And this is why I say, is that ongoing Jerry's

856
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 3: Springer episode. These kids were two of the girls there

857
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 3: had had kids one because the girl, I'm just gonna

858
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 3: gonna say, they were both Jeremy's exes living in this place.

859
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: He brought them in and they stayed.

860
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: Oh shit, yeah, okay, Yeah, that's fun for you.

861
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: Ongoing Jerry Springer episode. And they are also people who

862
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: they're not fully with it. There are more on the

863
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: slower side. Again, you to manipulate them and what happened.

864
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 3: So they very much trusted me to act like a

865
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 3: parental role to these kids. So those two girls had

866
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 3: two kids of their own there, and then we brought

867
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: in another fam Another girl had three kids there too,

868
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: So we were bringing in people as we as I

869
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 3: was living there.

870
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, whoa, who is the new one? Who was the

871
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: new woman?

872
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 3: She was just somebody who knew one of the girls

873
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 3: in the group, okay, And she's like, I need a

874
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 3: place to stay. I'm getting kicked out. I can't let

875
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 3: my kids starve and go cold, and we're like.

876
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, come on in, none of you guys better go

877
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 4: to the bathroom.

878
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. It was insane. Yeah, basically going outside during the

879
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 3: winter to was like yeah.

880
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yeah, I have to know what the

881
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 2: sleeping arrangements were, because how I cannot I still can't

882
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 2: process how you all would fit in that.

883
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 3: It was impressive. I will say this. Ron was a

884
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 3: really smart dude. He knew his shit, he knew he knew,

885
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 3: and he was able to look at a space and

886
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 3: be like, how can we make people fit in there?

887
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: So they added on a little room for me and Jeremy.

888
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 3: There were three rooms. There was a three rooms along

889
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 3: the hallway and like the masterroom air quoting that in

890
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,959
Speaker 3: the back. So the one room by the living room

891
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: they set up two little toddler coots who are the

892
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 3: first two girls who were there, Kenzie and the other girl,

893
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 3: and then one of the of Jeremy's ex's let there.

894
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 3: Then they had another room where the blood sun of

895
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 3: Naly and Ron lept there and something he had a

896
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 3: bunk bed, so sometimes another person was able to go

897
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 3: in there.

898
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: Wow yeah yeah.

899
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: And then there's a third room in the back that

900
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 3: a couple slept there, and then Nally slept in the

901
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 3: back while Ron slept in the living room most of

902
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: the time. Okay, and when people came along with the

903
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 3: new girl came along with her kids, that's when the

904
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 3: camper came along, got you and went to gotcha?

905
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, And I have to ask this question

906
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: because this is just what inevitably comes up with these situations.

907
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: Was Ron sexually abusing anybody?

908
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 3: Yes? I found out later, Yes, he didn't me for

909
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 3: there was definitely if it wasn't for Jeremy, he definitely

910
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 3: would have. He definitely would have gaus. Looking back, there

911
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 3: were sexual conversations between him and I. That's why I

912
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 3: said he didn't treat me like it's just cure because

913
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: of the conversation. But he was actually abusing.

914
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: To the girls there. Yeah, the adult girl's adults, and.

915
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: I fully I fully believe the kids too. I cannot

916
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: prove it. But with things, and I can't get too

917
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: much into this because there's a trial going on with

918
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 3: my ex regarding some stuff. I would not be surprised,

919
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 3: like just looking back kindstinks always twenty twenty that I'm like,

920
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 3: he has to be too, he has to be. How

921
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 3: can he not be?

922
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh, what a nightmare.

923
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, very, this is awful.

924
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 3: Very, I'm very sorry, which is why those kids I felt,

925
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: even though I wasn't able to protect them. There's all

926
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 3: this crap going on that I didn't know until later.

927
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 3: I felt like I had to protect them. I was

928
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 3: the most sane of this insane place. Yeah, want to

929
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 3: get some structure to these kids.

930
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: That in stig makes so much sense to me, And yeah,

931
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: it is such a useful tool on his part, which

932
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 2: is not like, yeah, anyone who comes in and see

933
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: these kids in this situation is going to be like, well, fuck,

934
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: now I have to take care of these kids. Now

935
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: I have to make sure that these kids are safe.

936
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: Like it's just playing on your instincts and yeah, making

937
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: you take care of them. I'm wondering how, like, how

938
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: did your thought process begin to change when you're in

939
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: the deepest part of it, Like, how are you reconciling? Yeah,

940
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: how are you reconciling what's happening?

941
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 3: It was very much pride, very prideful, because deep deep down,

942
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 3: I mean, there's no when you go to use a

943
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: bathroom full of poop, you that's it. That's the like

944
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 3: visual like, Okay, this is really no pun intended crappy situation, like,

945
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 3: there's no But I was just like, okay, how I

946
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 3: kept thinking how I change this around for people? I

947
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: wanted to rescue these people, not just the kids, but Jeremy,

948
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: all the even these two exes who I had a

949
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 3: battle back in my back and forth in my mind,

950
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 3: like I can't believe I'm living here with them, But

951
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: at the same time, how can I better them? I cared,

952
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: I cared so much for these people at the same time,

953
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 3: so it's like, I want to save these people. I

954
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 3: want to rescue these people. I had the knowledge I

955
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 3: can do this and a pride of Okay, I chose this,

956
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 3: so I'm going to make the best of my situation

957
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 3: as much as possible to.

958
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 4: Yeah.

959
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably, like not wanting the people who had been

960
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: like this is kind of weird to be right.

961
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds to me like, you know, you were

962
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: describing earlier how you want to learn how to do

963
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: the things that the men can do, and it sounds

964
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: like you have this really like figure it out, can

965
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: do attitude, which.

966
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: Oh, if I had a cult, you'd be the first

967
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: person I would have joint. And you're like, you know,

968
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: hard working, smart, Like it sounds like your hands were

969
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: really getting dirty, but you were enjoying it.

970
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I was learning things that like I

971
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 3: was learning carpentry, skilled I wrote a snowmobile, I wrote,

972
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 3: I learned how to drive a bacco. We were tearing

973
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 3: down trailers and everything. So I was doing stuff that

974
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 3: i've around here were in the county I live, There's

975
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 3: no way I could get that. So I was learning

976
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: useful tools. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I

977
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 3: can do this. It was giving me the strength to go,

978
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 3: I can do this. I'm not a helpless woman. I

979
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 3: can use a drill. Now I write all this, I

980
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 3: can use a chainsaw and survive. This is amazing.

981
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: So did that kind of make you feel as though

982
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: like now your first life was where the real magic

983
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: and like stuff was and you didn't need the second

984
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: life anymore because your first life was like meeting your needs.

985
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much, so very much. So I did not

986
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 3: go on that game at all when I was up there,

987
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, they were all on it. I was like,

988
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: I'm going to be outside with the boys, show me

989
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 3: how to use the oil, like I was.

990
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: Doing all that. So how long were you did You

991
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 2: actually live there for a year and a half And

992
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,720
Speaker 2: you know, your parents obviously were suspicious in the beginning,

993
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 2: and that came early on. What about like a little

994
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: bit further in like six months a year in like

995
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: what was your relationship with them? Like I so I.

996
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 3: Actually cut when I When was it that I cut them off?

997
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: I did eventually cut them off, very much like I

998
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,919
Speaker 3: would say Happy Birthday to my mom, I would say

999
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: Happy Mother's Day, like do the nice daughter stuff. But

1000
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 3: there was definitely I did not want to hear it.

1001
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 3: My head was in the sand, like Ostrich, I'm like, nope,

1002
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 3: didn't leave me alone. I'm doing what I'm doing and everything.

1003
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 3: And they I did not know this at the time,

1004
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 3: but they were doing investigators on their side just to

1005
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 3: see like what's going on? Who are these people my

1006
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 3: daughter is there with? So they were and they were

1007
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 3: doing a lot on their side of like my dad

1008
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 3: was more the one who was asking, gently asking the

1009
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 3: questions while I was down there like trying to. Like

1010
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 3: Joyce said in her book.

1011
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, yeah.

1012
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 3: Build that relationship my mom, my dear amazing mom. She's

1013
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 3: one who can kind of have no filter and when

1014
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 3: it comes to me, she's like, I'm not going to

1015
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 3: lie to you, like I'm not going to hold back.

1016
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 3: This is grap I just got to get it out.

1017
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 3: Then you do with it. What you will. So my

1018
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 3: mom was definitely the powerhouse of like we like she

1019
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 3: was praying, she was like this is awful. We need

1020
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 3: to get you out of this, and everything, well, my

1021
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 3: dad was gently probing and asking these questions. When I

1022
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 3: was down there and still trying to maintain a relationship

1023
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 3: as much as possible.

1024
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 4: How did when did it start to collapse?

1025
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 3: So I came down for my birthday November twenty seventeen

1026
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 3: and actually today's my birthday, Actually today's my birthday birthday,

1027
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 3: and my dad took me off to to eat. I

1028
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 3: forget what was lunch for dinner, and we were talking

1029
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 3: doing the nice to be things, and he goes and

1030
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 3: my family knows, calls me Victoria. So he's like, Victoria,

1031
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 3: here's what I want you to do. I just want

1032
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 3: you to start asking questions and observe. That's all.

1033
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: I want you to smart, smart to start asking questions

1034
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: and observe.

1035
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 3: Yep, ask me. And at that time there were things

1036
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 3: slowly I was like, wait a minut, does that add up?

1037
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 3: Does that add up? And that was like the affirmation

1038
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: I needed to go, Okay, maybe I should. Dad is

1039
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 3: my and my dad is one who when he's very quiet,

1040
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 3: like everyone just hushed because he has the wealth of knowledge.

1041
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 3: He has so much wisdom. It's like, okay, dad, Like

1042
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 3: mom's always saying this, and of course I do like

1043
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: my mom, like you know, it's a fair and s now.

1044
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: But it's like, okay, Dad, you're affirming this. So and

1045
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 3: that's what started it that I started slowly poking holes

1046
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 3: and kind of making notes on a story Ron would

1047
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 3: give then follow it up in a month be like,

1048
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 3: so you said that your uncle's in the mafia and

1049
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 3: that he had a heart attack, but he now is

1050
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 3: back in the hospital for cancer, right, what like slowly asked,

1051
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 3: like like I said, poking holes, asking questions and just

1052
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 3: making notes of all that in my mind and going okay,

1053
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 3: this is crazy, it's not right, And as there was

1054
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 3: still a fog in my mind, but it was enough

1055
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 3: for my cognitive distance to kick in and go, okay,

1056
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 3: I don't I don't want to about of the state.

1057
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 3: I love Jeremy, I love these kids. I can't start

1058
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 3: staying here. The more people that were coming in, he

1059
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 3: was starting to listen to other people and not me anymore.

1060
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 3: Uh huh. I started to see that shift. I'm like,

1061
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 3: she's not like, she's not meeting the criteria for this.

1062
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 3: What she's doing is wrong. She's manipulating things now, and

1063
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 3: you're listening to her. So there started to be a

1064
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 3: shift in the group that.

1065
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 2: Was like Ron would start to listen to someone knew

1066
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: who had her outd yep. Oh interesting, yep.

1067
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 3: And I was like, hmm hmm, this isn't because I

1068
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 3: think he was having sexual relations with her.

1069
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: Mm yeah, what were some of the other things, Like

1070
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 2: prior to your dad saying that, were there moments where

1071
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 2: you'd be like, huh, that doesn't seem like it's true,

1072
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 2: or like did anything come up for you like that?

1073
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 3: He is very good at the fantasy world do He

1074
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 3: would say all these things about his family where he's like,

1075
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 3: I have this aunt who's in the circus, and at

1076
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 3: that time I was making I was taking plastic bags

1077
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 3: and making actual like toape bags out of them. It's

1078
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 3: called porning, like reuse and recycle. It's very cool. So

1079
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 3: anyone who likes croucheting look it up. It's very helpful.

1080
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 3: And he's like, I can get all these plastic bags

1081
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 3: so you can make all these toads and sell them.

1082
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 3: My aunt is in the circus. She has tons of them.

1083
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 3: It's going to be dropped off in a few weeks.

1084
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 3: Never happened, and anytime I asked, it was like, what's

1085
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 3: going on? Where are these things? And at that time

1086
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, whatever. I don't really know his family.

1087
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 3: But then I started talking to because his blood family

1088
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 3: lived nearby, and I started asking the blood family a

1089
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 3: few questions, like do you have the aunt who's in

1090
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 3: the circus? What?

1091
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: No, never moved back when in the circus bringing me

1092
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: the plastic bags, right, Like.

1093
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 3: Do you have a brother in the mafia? Like how

1094
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 3: many brothers do you have?

1095
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: Oh?

1096
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 3: I only have one brother? Oh, and I'm thinking about

1097
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 3: I was told you had like five oh, things like that.

1098
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 3: Little things like that.

1099
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 4: I was like, hmm, and how would your brain explain

1100
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 4: them away?

1101
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: Would it just be like, well, if you have a

1102
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: brother in the mafia, of course they're not going to

1103
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: like say it or.

1104
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 4: Stuff like that.

1105
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1106
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, just was like, Okay, I'm not going to question that.

1107
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 3: I don't want to die, right, I don't want to

1108
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 3: do that. Or like he was like, we're in the Freemasons,

1109
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 3: and I don't know that much about the Freemasons, right,

1110
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, it's that's a secret group. I

1111
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 3: don't want to like, I don't want people come out

1112
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 3: of the woods and attack me.

1113
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,919
Speaker 2: Right of course he's saying, yeah, of course he's saying

1114
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: things that have some like an air of secrecy around them.

1115
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 2: So exactly plausible.

1116
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

1117
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: Did he present himself as like a some kind of

1118
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 2: special authority of some kind on life or spiritually or

1119
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: anything like that.

1120
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 3: It was he was spiritually No, because his birthday was

1121
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 3: on October thirty first, so he always said he was

1122
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 3: part of the devil. He was like the double spawn. Okay, lovely,

1123
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 3: more like I know so much about history and everything,

1124
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,439
Speaker 3: and I have all this like like I said, it's survivalists.

1125
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 3: I have all these things that help you survive in

1126
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 3: the world that people cast decide that people don't know.

1127
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 3: How good at a mechanic I am, at a landscaper

1128
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 3: I am. I have all these tricks that can help

1129
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 3: you succeed in life. By why you don't need to

1130
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 3: go to a nine to five job. I can help

1131
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,439
Speaker 3: you survive with these little locations things.

1132
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: Was there this sense of like an impending apocalypse or

1133
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 2: was there a prepper element to all of it.

1134
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 3: There wasn't a prepper element, they didn't have the money,

1135
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 3: but it was definitely like we are going to protect

1136
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,439
Speaker 3: our own though, like I'm going to teach you guys

1137
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 3: how to survive that if, like it wasn't preppy, but

1138
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 3: if something were to happen, you know how or if

1139
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 3: if you ever do leave but don't you can survive

1140
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 3: out there. Right, It's a fun way to survive. And

1141
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 3: we're and one of the big things that we're going

1142
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 3: to take this off the grid and we're going to

1143
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 3: live on our own where no one can touch.

1144
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 2: This type of thing. Right, that would get me. I've

1145
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: talked about this before, but my boyfriend and I we

1146
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 2: like started getting into like learning how to like we

1147
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: suck at it. We don't we would not survive currently,

1148
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 2: but we took one class and like, oh, this is

1149
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: maybe gonna be our personalities now. Like I totally understand

1150
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 2: the appeal of that also as someone who's like I

1151
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: want to do what we always do, you know, yeah.

1152
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 3: And like the government, who was like the governments into everything,

1153
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 3: so we need to avoid the government, even.

1154
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: Though we're saying less and you're getting paid from the gun.

1155
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 3: Yeah right, right, that's one of I remember after the

1156
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 3: time my dad asked told me to do that. That

1157
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 3: was one of things I came back. I was like, wait,

1158
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 3: what this doesn't make We're going and then the government

1159
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 3: isn't everything, but yeah, we're going to take money for okay,

1160
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 3: make it make sense.

1161
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't right right right?

1162
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: Wow, So you're in deep you like you now are

1163
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 1: caring for these people like they are your family, and

1164
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: in some ways the children are what's kind of the

1165
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: straw that breaks the camel's back.

1166
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 3: Honestly, it was when that the new girl came in

1167
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 3: and just how she was treating these kids and there

1168
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 3: was so much chaos going on and everything, and that

1169
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 3: like the whole structure was starting to shift, and once

1170
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 3: again I felt like I don't fit in here, and

1171
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 3: I'm trying to voice these things and he's not listening,

1172
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 3: Like I don't feel safe anymore, and I don't see

1173
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 3: these kids being safe. So I need a solution to

1174
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 3: so kind of be around because Jeremy, he would Our

1175
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 3: relationship was back and forth at times, so to be like, oh, yeah,

1176
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 3: this is weird, this isn't right, and be like, oh no,

1177
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 3: you're making this up, Like he's not like that but

1178
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 3: so I was like, Okay, I need to be close

1179
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 3: enough so he can still maybe take time to see

1180
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 3: it on his own, but have my own space that

1181
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 3: I set the rules. That's distance enough, a safe place

1182
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 3: for these kids to escape too.

1183
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: And what did that look like.

1184
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be like an apartment, my own job, an

1185
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 3: apartment nearby that it was this place to be like, hey,

1186
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 3: we'll take them for the weekend, We'll take them for

1187
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 3: a few days or anything, and they can stay here

1188
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 3: for a little bit, to set up a good structure

1189
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 3: for these kids, like, hey, this is well running water

1190
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 3: looks like Look, it's amazing, flashing the toilet looks like

1191
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 3: phenomenal things like that. That's like, these are decent human

1192
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 3: things we need. Right.

1193
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 2: Was Ron upset, like how did he react when you

1194
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 2: got a place?

1195
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't get a place.

1196
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:12,959
Speaker 2: Oh you didn't.

1197
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 3: I didn't. That's what I wanted, and that's why I

1198
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 3: started looking forward. That's where he was like, Oh, that's

1199
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 3: a good idea. But then an hour later or so,

1200
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 3: or maybe the next day, he's like that place isn't good.

1201
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 2: Not that place, not that pay Yeah.

1202
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 3: And I wanted to get back into the medical field

1203
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 3: and Abo. I was like, you know what, I'll take

1204
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 3: any job. He goes, Oh, you're not good enough for

1205
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 3: that job. You're not good enough. You don't let your

1206
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 3: skills of being a medical assistant sit here at McDonald's

1207
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 3: or a factory where I'm thinking start low and work

1208
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 3: my way up. Let me just get out there again.

1209
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh no, no, no, no, you need something that.

1210
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 2: Oh. He was like, you're you're too good for that job. Yes, yeah, okay, okay.

1211
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: What was the thing that actually got you out?

1212
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 3: So I remember one morning I was putting a crap

1213
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 3: ris of may out to different places in indeed in

1214
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 3: New York, and I was like, Okay, if I'm meant

1215
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 3: to come back home to PA, I'm going to apply

1216
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 3: for a job down here that if I'm meant to

1217
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 3: have this job, then I'm meant to leave and everything.

1218
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 3: And so that was in the back of my mind.

1219
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 3: And the thing that I really solidified it is one

1220
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 3: night I was couldn't sleep and I'll let people know

1221
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 3: I was popping nine ten minut drill Night Justice sleep

1222
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 3: because I whoa, yeah, I could not sleep there. It

1223
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 3: was awful. And I came out and I was like

1224
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 3: I'm not happy here. I need to go and everything,

1225
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 3: and he goes, well, you're not happy here. She just

1226
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 3: had more sex with Jeremy. And I can teach you.

1227
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 3: I can teach you how oh.

1228
01:04:57,720 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 2: My god, what a creep.

1229
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that I was like, I need to get out.

1230
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 3: I need to get out. I don't know how. I

1231
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 3: am terrified, but I need to get out. And for

1232
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 3: me getting out was still, Let's find an apartment, let's

1233
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 3: find a job, let's do still okay, I still want

1234
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 3: to pease them and have Jeremy be close enough and everything,

1235
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 3: but I need to get out and now.

1236
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 1: And did you find I mean you, It sounds like

1237
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 1: you got the job in PA maybe and then ended up.

1238
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 3: So that's an interesting story. I came down for my

1239
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 3: best friend's engagement party, and people knew down here in

1240
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 3: PA life wasn't great, that I was not happy. But

1241
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 3: that weekend I started letting the truth out, telling people

1242
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 3: how awful it was, telling my parents how awful it

1243
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 3: was that I am thirteen thousand dollars now in debt.

1244
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 3: This is all the crap, like there's no running it

1245
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: look like I can't flush the toilet. They're the running

1246
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 3: or I can't drink like all this things. And my

1247
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 3: parents were like, you're staying You're not going back home,

1248
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 3: and not everyone's parents is able to do this, and

1249
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 3: not everyone's stories is like this. But my parents were like,

1250
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 3: we're taking the thirteen thousand dollars and paying that off.

1251
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 3: You pay off cutting that off. We will figure out

1252
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 3: how to go get your stuff, we will figure out

1253
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 3: how to get up there, but you're staying here. And

1254
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 3: about a few weeks later is when I got the

1255
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 3: job I currently have right now.

1256
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

1257
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

1258
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: And it was in PA And did you ever see

1259
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: any of these people again or was it that this

1260
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: was kind of hard face?

1261
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 3: I still saw them a little bit over Skype because

1262
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 3: even though I knew I was safe, I knew this

1263
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 3: is where I need to be. I that fall was

1264
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 3: still there, the work souid, the brain mush and everything

1265
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 3: that was still there. So it was slowly coming out

1266
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 3: of that and being like switching wrong voice to my

1267
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 3: voice again because every time I would hear Ron's voice,

1268
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 3: hear him in the back of my mind and I

1269
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 3: had to switch that. So jumping back into therapy, really

1270
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 3: sharing the truth of all the crap I was in

1271
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 3: at about A year later is when I fully cut

1272
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 3: off contact with them.

1273
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, and did you still feel like you loved Jeremy?

1274
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 2: Like what was how did that resolve?

1275
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 3: So that I did? I very much did, and no

1276
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 3: one knew that I were in the long half. It

1277
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 3: wasn't until the day someone drove up there to get

1278
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 3: some of my stuff that I finally had the guts

1279
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 3: to tell them I'm not coming back. And it was

1280
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 3: the family yeah, and it was yeah, and create the

1281
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 3: people with in crazing Land. And it was under the

1282
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 3: guides of I'm not happy. My mind like, my mind's

1283
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 3: breaking down. I didn't have the terminology to say, I'm

1284
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 3: in a high control group. This is wrong, this is

1285
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 3: all wrong. But I was kind of hiding exactly some

1286
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 3: of what I was feeling. And I wanted him out too.

1287
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 3: I wanted him to come with me because I did

1288
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 3: love him. I did care about those that little girl

1289
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 3: like it's like I can I have my cake and

1290
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 3: eat it too? But when I saw that he was

1291
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 3: not willing to budge, He's like, I'm never moving out

1292
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 3: of state. I Am never. I was like, Okay, I

1293
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,719
Speaker 3: care too much about myself that there's someone out there

1294
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 3: who will care for me, who will fight for my

1295
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 3: mental health, who will fight for us to be together,

1296
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 3: that it's not us anymore. There are better things on

1297
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 3: the horizon for me.

1298
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean huge, hugely for you.

1299
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: And about your draw to like, uh second life games,

1300
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: did that ever come back or.

1301
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 3: A little bit? I shook my head there, but I

1302
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 3: was like a little bit. I mean I still have

1303
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 3: a draw out to fantasy. But this is why, like

1304
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 3: I'm out on aish social media. I won't ever get

1305
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 3: back on social media because even though like Facebook is

1306
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 3: great and of itself, I compare myself to there's way much. Yeah,

1307
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 3: that's what starts the discontentment. So instead I am putting

1308
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 3: like like I said, I'll always be into fantasy, but

1309
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 3: putting that drive into writing into like I now play

1310
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 3: Dungeons and Dragons. So if a little bit of fantasy,

1311
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 3: but it's in a constructive way.

1312
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1313
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, if Ron would just take all

1314
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: this energy of like my aunts in the circus and

1315
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 1: write a fucking book.

1316
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:42,759
Speaker 2: Maybe instead of controlling people.

1317
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 4: It's like wild.

1318
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is interesting how many cult leaders do actually write,

1319
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 2: that's true, write a.

1320
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 1: Fantasy novel or I mean he sounds like he's a

1321
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: This is all like a sexual predator game at the

1322
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: end of the day, and Harry Potter is not going

1323
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 1: to fix any of it. But you know, really there

1324
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: has to be more outlets than yeah, just controlling a

1325
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: group of people with one toilet.

1326
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 3: Like when I came out, I did blow off the

1327
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 3: roof of that place, because eventually a year later I

1328
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 3: called CPS on these people. I was like, if even

1329
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 3: though I'm not in contact those kids, I want to

1330
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,719
Speaker 3: know at least I tried to do something for these kids. Yeah,

1331
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,719
Speaker 3: so I did call in everything, and at that time

1332
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 3: I still was kind of connected to people on the

1333
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 3: outside who weren't in that group, who lived around that area,

1334
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh yeah, they came. CCS came and

1335
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 3: people started moving out. Well fast forward to last year

1336
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 3: twenty January twenty twenty four, where a whole new layer

1337
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 3: of stuff happened and that I found out what was

1338
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 3: going on up there, and this is where it was hit.

1339
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 3: There was a nail on the coffin and like, this

1340
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 3: is a high control groo, this is a cult. He

1341
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:06,720
Speaker 3: started bringing new people in. YEP. I was like right

1342
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 3: there that new people are coming in new kids are

1343
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 3: coming in like it. Yep. He could only last on

1344
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:16,919
Speaker 3: his own for so long.

1345
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 2: Right, yep. Wow. I mean I'm glad that the kids

1346
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 2: that were there hopefully moved somewhere a little bit better,

1347
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 2: but that that's so sad that more ended up with him.

1348
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 2: So okay, I just I want to just go back

1349
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 2: to what we were talking about a second ago, because

1350
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 2: you're talking about the difference between engaging with fantasy in

1351
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 2: a way that's like constructive and healthy versus not, And

1352
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 2: I wonder how you would articulate what that difference is.

1353
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 3: So for me, it's when I start getting so sucked in.

1354
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 3: I start and I mean, I'm sure people have a

1355
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 3: vision who have an active imagination have this that they

1356
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 3: when they read a book, Like when I read a book,

1357
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 3: I see everything, I feel what the characters feel. But

1358
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 3: when I start going off the deep end of reading plotline,

1359
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 3: like oh if I made this character to fit in here,

1360
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,639
Speaker 3: and I am so immersed that I realize, oh, I'm

1361
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:18,759
Speaker 3: not connecting face to face with these people. I haven't

1362
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:22,120
Speaker 3: really reached out with my real friend right face to

1363
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 3: face friends. I have not texted my boyfriend and say, hey,

1364
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 3: can you get together? This weekend. When I start dropping

1365
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 3: off and not doing touch points and meeting with people,

1366
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 3: that's when I go, Hmm, what's going on underneath that?

1367
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,480
Speaker 3: Why am I feeling the need to pool away, isolate

1368
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 3: from my real life and dive and curl up deep

1369
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 3: into these fantasies.

1370
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:45,479
Speaker 2: What's the answer.

1371
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 3: Usually at usually i find I'm like, well, one I

1372
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 3: the seasonal depression bad gets sense of this time I

1373
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 3: really got to be mindful, and it's realizing I haven't

1374
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,679
Speaker 3: reached out. I've been so focused on me and what's

1375
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,679
Speaker 3: going on in my life, which is that it's good

1376
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 3: to be aware and I want people to know there

1377
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 3: is the aspect that you've got to be emotionally aware

1378
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 3: of what's going on in your life. But when I'm

1379
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 3: so inward so focus on this is bad, this is bad,

1380
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 3: this is bad, and that echoes in my mind that

1381
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,480
Speaker 3: I'm not looking out and saying, huh, have I connected

1382
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:28,599
Speaker 3: with Susie because she's going through something too, and I'm

1383
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 3: not doing real life with her word instead of just

1384
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:34,679
Speaker 3: me alone in the mud pit, it's like, hey, we're

1385
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 3: in this together, let's talk about this together. And then

1386
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 3: it brings us out of it, like Okay, now that

1387
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 3: we talk about, let's go for a walk, Let's be active,

1388
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 3: let's do a life together, Let's have these let's get

1389
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 3: let me get out of my mind and connect with

1390
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 3: someone and say, hey, I'm really struggling with X, Y

1391
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 3: and Z. Are you share that with me and we

1392
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,800
Speaker 3: can do this together. Because life is hard, but we're

1393
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 3: meant to be in a community, a face to face

1394
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 3: community with humans. That's what we're meant to do.

1395
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, A community that's healthy, that does not feed

1396
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: the ego of one person exactly.

1397
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 2: There's not one soul leader who makes all of the

1398
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 2: decisions exactly.

1399
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 3: And I realized that a lot of people struggle with

1400
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:22,120
Speaker 3: the same thing I do, and they're just looking to

1401
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:24,599
Speaker 3: voice it too. It's just that person coming along saying

1402
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 3: I see you and man, today stuck, this was hard. Yeah,

1403
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 3: let me help you in the stuckiness. Let's sit in this,

1404
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 3: let's talk about it, Let's let the emotions out the

1405
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 3: let's go do something. I can just be a simple

1406
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 3: walk because I know when I've been in midst of

1407
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 3: my deep depression, I don't want to do anything but

1408
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 3: just that simple walk in the sun or something, it

1409
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 3: changes everything. It's like, Okay, now I can get through

1410
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 3: a day a little bit more so.

1411
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:58,440
Speaker 1: Damn, I'm so impressed you've you've been on the hero's journey.

1412
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:02,679
Speaker 3: It's therapy, it's I'm so grateful to my therapist long

1413
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 3: for the depailing she has allowed pushed me to do.

1414
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 3: And it's been hard. I don't want people to think

1415
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 3: like every day is great. I still I'm still shocked

1416
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 3: about how I run into some things I can. I'm like, whoa, whoa,

1417
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 3: that really landed heavy, that triggered something? Why? And there's

1418
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:23,799
Speaker 3: another layer, there's another layer, like I'm sure you guys

1419
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 3: have seen that in your own recovery. That it's just

1420
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 3: it's a never ending journey to be willing to face

1421
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 3: that and that stuff it and not use something to

1422
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 3: cover it up totally.

1423
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have any final thoughts, lessons, words of wisdom.

1424
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,559
Speaker 3: My words, oh, wisdom would be just what my dad said,

1425
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:52,640
Speaker 3: if you're if for anyone who's listening out there, who's like,

1426
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 3: this doesn't feel right, and it doesn't have to be

1427
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,679
Speaker 3: a high control group, it doesn't have to be a cult.

1428
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:03,599
Speaker 3: If you're in relationship, whatever it might be, just stop

1429
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 3: ask questions and listen and observe. Yes, just observe, and

1430
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 3: be willing to go out and just say. And it

1431
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 3: takes a lot of courage and give yourself grace as

1432
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 3: you're walking this journey of recovery or getting out. It

1433
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 3: is hard, but be willing to start trusting that voice

1434
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 3: and go to someone and say and just start building

1435
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 3: a relationship and go, hey, I need help. However that

1436
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 3: looks for you, however that turns those words will for you.

1437
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 3: Be willing to do that and give yourself grace. Like

1438
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 3: I said, as it is a bumpy road, there will

1439
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 3: be times you want to go back. I wanted to

1440
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 3: go back, and that's okay. That is okay. We are

1441
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 3: messy people. You make mistakes and it's okay.

1442
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that. I'm so glad you mentioned the

1443
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 2: questions thing again because I because I did mean to

1444
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 2: bring that up and I forgot. It's just just that

1445
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 2: simple thing of allowing yourself to think the unthinkable or

1446
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 2: ask a question that you know maybe you're not supposed

1447
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 2: to getting curious. Like we just see over and over

1448
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 2: and over again, that really is the difference between someone

1449
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 2: who is indoctrinated and somebody who is not. Is being

1450
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,040
Speaker 2: allowing yourself to ask the questions, even if it's just inward,

1451
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 2: just to yourself. Yep, you know, to go to those

1452
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 2: scary parts and be curious. That can be the thing.

1453
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that you need.

1454
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking to us and for

1455
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 2: reaching out to us. I'm so grateful that you shared

1456
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 2: this story with us. It's so unique and I think

1457
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 2: people will relate to it in a new way, which

1458
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 2: is amazing.

1459
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:46,479
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on here if

1460
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 3: I feel honor to be on here.

1461
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 2: Major thanks to Tori, who is a listener of the show,

1462
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 2: for calling in with that story. I am so glad

1463
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 2: that she did. Other fellow listeners, we'd love to hear

1464
01:17:57,280 --> 01:18:00,480
Speaker 2: from you as well. Megan, what is your big takeaway

1465
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 2: from Tory's story? Which is really fun phrase to say.

1466
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 1: I think that it's mostly just how we live in

1467
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 1: a society that is not meeting our needs to the

1468
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,599
Speaker 1: extent that things such as these and are not cults,

1469
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 1: are second life or all these multitude of apps, games, whatever,

1470
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: are able to kind of take a hold of us.

1471
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 4: And it makes perfect sense.

1472
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:26,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we we're in the midst of a

1473
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 2: loneliness crisis since everyone is you know, well aware on

1474
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:35,840
Speaker 2: technology and looking to technolo, which can be great for

1475
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 2: helping but also can be even more isolating. And I

1476
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 2: know we've talked about loneliness before and how we've experienced it,

1477
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 2: and it is amazing how you can really like, you

1478
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 2: can have people in your life, you can have friends,

1479
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:50,559
Speaker 2: you can have a partner, and you can still feel

1480
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 2: really lonely. And that, of course is going to lead

1481
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,720
Speaker 2: so many of us to want to seek out community

1482
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 2: in whatever form we can find it, people who understand

1483
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 2: us and make us feel heard and like we're not weirdohs.

1484
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,559
Speaker 2: And yeah, we live in an era now where it's

1485
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,800
Speaker 2: just so much easier for that to be preyed upon, unfortunately,

1486
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 2: but we still need community.

1487
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know.

1488
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:19,600
Speaker 2: They can be really meaningful and they are for so

1489
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 2: many people. It's just also important to make sure we're

1490
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,679
Speaker 2: connecting with ourselves, with our bodies, with people in real

1491
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:29,920
Speaker 2: life as much as we can, because it's just a different.

1492
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 1: Experience, yea being in nature, Yeah, it's important. She seems

1493
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 1: like she's really found a happy medium, middle ground where yeah, yeah,

1494
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:40,680
Speaker 1: it was impressed.

1495
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 2: A healthy way of engaging in fantasy and yeah.

1496
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 1: Totally, well thanks Tory, Thank you Toy, and thank you

1497
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 1: listeners for spending another week with us.

1498
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 4: If you want to.

1499
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: Give us a little gift for the holidays, please go

1500
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 1: rate us five stars.

1501
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:55,879
Speaker 4: And leave us a positive review.

1502
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 1: If you don't want to leave us five stars, don't

1503
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: leave a review at all. Gross who wants to do that?

1504
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 1: And as always, remember to follow your.

1505
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 4: Gut, watch out for red flax.

1506
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me as produced

1507
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1508
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1509
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,639
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1510
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1511
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1512
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1513
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,480
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1514
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1515
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1516
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.