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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stephan

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Speaker 1: Ever told you protection of I Heart Radio. Today, we

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Speaker 1: are very excited to be joined by Amanda Montell, who

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Speaker 1: is a writer and a linguist, an author of the

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Speaker 1: book Words Splut, a Feminist Guide to taking Back the

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Speaker 1: English Language. Thank you so much for being with us, Amanda, Oh,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. I I'm often

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Speaker 1: told that I come with a wealth of information that

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Speaker 1: people's mom's never told them, So I thought this would

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Speaker 1: be a perfect fit. I'm thrilled to be here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: to be fair. In your book, you do talk to

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Speaker 1: moms about their outdated language, so that's kind of like

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Speaker 1: even better, you tell moms what they don't know. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true. I um. I found that moms really enjoy

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Speaker 1: words slut. I think the phrase word slut is you know,

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Speaker 1: it's scandalous, but it's not too scandalous for a mom.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a juxtaposition of a sort of like

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Speaker 1: nerdy word, which is word, and then an agy word

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Speaker 1: which is slut. But you put them together and it's

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Speaker 1: sort of the crown nut of of an expletive that

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Speaker 1: mom seem to be okay, with which is good because really,

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Speaker 1: this is a book about feminist socio linguistics that people

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Speaker 1: of of all of all genders and all ages, especially

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Speaker 1: those in their middle age, probably need. So uh, first

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Speaker 1: of all, I'll give you a point for just just

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Speaker 1: saying crown nut in any kind of analogy. So good job.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, anyone, anyone who knows who knows that I

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Speaker 1: am a portmanteau slut portmanteau, portmanteau being a hybrid of

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Speaker 1: of two different words to create a new one, like brunch, frenemy, angry, affluenza,

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Speaker 1: man splain. There are a great many portmanteau is that

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Speaker 1: the feminist movement has come up with in order to

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Speaker 1: name previously unspoken experiences like man splain her story, frat

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Speaker 1: trie archy is a fun one, um, so that's one

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Speaker 1: from Oh yeah. Frat triarchy is what some social scientists

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Speaker 1: have used to describe the setup of our contemporary culture,

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Speaker 1: which is run less by the fathers and more by

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Speaker 1: networks of the brothers. So you know, uh, an example

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Speaker 1: would be you know, Donald Trump and his bus bros.

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Speaker 1: And that access Hollywood recording would be a perfect example

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Speaker 1: of frat triarchy. You know, bros engaging in locker room

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Speaker 1: banter in order to oppressed women. We're really getting into

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Speaker 1: this quickly. All I said, all I said was grownut

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Speaker 1: and here we are. Look. Yeah, yeah, anyway, that is

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Speaker 1: all to say that I love a portmanteau even more

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Speaker 1: than a pun. Then we have a battle. Now she

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Speaker 1: loves she's a queen of puns. Yes, I'm a I'm

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Speaker 1: a big language nerd listeners of this show. No, so

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Speaker 1: I'm very very excited to have this conversation. Um, I

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Speaker 1: love the title, and congrats on writing a book. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I know that's no easy thing. So oh that that's

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Speaker 1: that's very kind of you. Yeah, that was that was

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Speaker 1: the dream all along, you know. And um the fact

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Speaker 1: that I got to marry my two loves, that being

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Speaker 1: linguistics the science of language, and creative writing, the art

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Speaker 1: of it. Um, that was just you know, that was

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Speaker 1: the cherry on top, because my dream had always been

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Speaker 1: to write nonfiction. Um, and I I never could have

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Speaker 1: predicted that this sort of um useless nerdy undergraduate degree

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Speaker 1: that I got would would help me in any sort

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Speaker 1: of fruitful way. Um, but I'm I'm thrilled that I

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Speaker 1: was able to write about this stuff that I love

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Speaker 1: so much and talk about in my everyday life and

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Speaker 1: and bring it to a general audience of people who

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Speaker 1: might not even know what linguistics is. So that's been awesome,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, and it was. It was wonderful to read,

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Speaker 1: super fun, very entertaining. Definitely listeners check it out. UM,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about yourself and

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Speaker 1: about the inspiration behind this more than just getting to

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Speaker 1: marry the things that you Yeah, absolutely so. UM. I

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Speaker 1: grew up a total language nerd, hardcore. I was obsessed

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Speaker 1: with what I would later learn was a field called

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Speaker 1: socio linguistics UM, which is where language and sociology and

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Speaker 1: culture intersect. You know, I was always so fascinated by

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Speaker 1: the way that UM people spoke and how it could

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Speaker 1: inform our perceptions of them, and the way that I

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Speaker 1: spoke and the way that it informed other people's perceptions

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Speaker 1: of me. You know, why was it that UM, when I,

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Speaker 1: as sort of a small woman, would would curse or

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Speaker 1: maybe even use um ten dollar words, UM, people would

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Speaker 1: be sort of surprised or scandalized, whereas and my male

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Speaker 1: colleagues would do so they didn't get the same reaction.

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Speaker 1: And and then you know, I was always just obsessed

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Speaker 1: with the thesaurus, Like I just loved big old words,

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Speaker 1: and I loved you know, the the swish and flack

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Speaker 1: of different you know, sounds. And I would later learn

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Speaker 1: that that stuff was called phonetics and phonology. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I I, yeah, I was obsessed with foreign languages and dialects.

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Speaker 1: And again how um, speaking of foreign language or or

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Speaker 1: having a certain accent or dialect feature could change the

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Speaker 1: way that a person saw you. So then when I

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Speaker 1: got to college and signed up for my first linguistics

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Speaker 1: one on one class, having no idea what the field was,

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Speaker 1: and learned there was this whole you know, small but

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Speaker 1: mighty um group of people studying formally um these subjects.

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Speaker 1: I I was so smitten. And the gender and language

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Speaker 1: classes that I took really inspired me and like lit

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Speaker 1: a fire, um more than anything else, because they they

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Speaker 1: highlighted these hidden gender biases and stereotypes um that we

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Speaker 1: all grow up using in our everyday language. UM. And

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're all over the way that we speak,

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Speaker 1: not only in English but in other languages. To like

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Speaker 1: languages with grammatical gender um, where gender is literally built

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Speaker 1: into the grammatical system. Um. We don't have that in English, um,

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Speaker 1: other than you know, our third singular pronouns he and she,

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Speaker 1: which you know, there's a reason why are our gender

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Speaker 1: third singular pronouns have become such a topic of contention

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Speaker 1: in in our language because they are really the only

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Speaker 1: um unit of grammar that we have in English that

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Speaker 1: is gendered. UM. And so that's you know, the little

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Speaker 1: category of language that's become sort of politicized. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was, I was so fascinated um and sort of

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Speaker 1: horrified but also inspired um to learn about all the

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Speaker 1: ways that gender and gender stereotype are lurking beneath the

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Speaker 1: surface of our language. Everything from you know, how we

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Speaker 1: use gendered insults and how there's such a such a

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Speaker 1: more robust wealth of of insults for women or referencing

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Speaker 1: femininity in English than there are for men, to the

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Speaker 1: ways that we criticize and perceive women's voices. Um, whether

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Speaker 1: it's you know, using a certain feature like up talk um,

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Speaker 1: where you end a declarative sentence in the upward intonation

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Speaker 1: of a question, or vocal fry, which is a vocal

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Speaker 1: quality where your larynx are very relaxed that sounds like this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure as a as podcast hosts here

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Speaker 1: no stranger to criticisms of your voices. UM. And it

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Speaker 1: was really cool to learn about how so many judgments

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Speaker 1: not only of women's speech, but of the speech of

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Speaker 1: so many marginalized communities, UM, have so little to do

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Speaker 1: with the speech itself at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: and very much to do with our preconceived notions of

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Speaker 1: those speakers. UM. And just you know, the the idea

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Speaker 1: of of male defaultness in our in our culture and

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Speaker 1: in our language, and how the way that men UM,

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Speaker 1: specifically you know, middle aged, white, straight cis gender men,

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Speaker 1: the way that they use language is um, what we

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Speaker 1: default consider prestigious and normal in our culture. UM, even

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Speaker 1: though UH linguists have found time and time again that

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Speaker 1: young women and communities of color are our languages linguistic innovators, UM,

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Speaker 1: because these are the groups that use language as a

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Speaker 1: form of power and a culture that doesn't give them

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Speaker 1: a lot of other ways to do that. UM. The

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Speaker 1: other example of male defaultness and speech that I that

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Speaker 1: I like to give because it's sort of like it

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Speaker 1: tends to shock people, as it shocked me when I

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Speaker 1: first thought about it. Was just the way that we

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Speaker 1: describe sex, like as penetration. You know that that word

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Speaker 1: places you know, penises as the protagonists and the narrators

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Speaker 1: of sex. You know, the opposite might be something like envelopment,

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Speaker 1: were enclosure, or if you want to approach it from

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Speaker 1: a sling angle, something like she thing. And I was

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Speaker 1: just like, that is wild. How how word choice um

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Speaker 1: with regard to gender and so many other identities something

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Speaker 1: that we don't even think about because we grow up

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Speaker 1: using language so organically. UM. And so you know, the

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to bring UM, some of these empirical studies

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Speaker 1: that are kind of inaccessible and only really read by

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Speaker 1: linguistic students UM to a general audience was really exciting

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Speaker 1: to me. UM. But yeah, I guess you asked me

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Speaker 1: to talk about myself and then I just tended you

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Speaker 1: talking about linguistics. But but but yeah, I am, I am.

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Speaker 1: I'm a writer and I always dreamt of being a writer. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I'm writing my second book now, which is about

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Speaker 1: the language of cults, from scientology to soul cycle um.

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Speaker 1: And how the how these groups, you know, the wide

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Speaker 1: spectrum of groups that the word cult can be applied

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Speaker 1: to in contemporary culture, from those as a notorious and

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Speaker 1: destructive as jonestown to those as um, you know, seemingly

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Speaker 1: innocuous and and constructive as something like peloton um. How

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Speaker 1: these groups use language to do things that occult or

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Speaker 1: a cult following would need to do, like create community

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Speaker 1: and solidarity and still ideology, creating us versus them, mentality, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So I guess the the general theme with me is

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Speaker 1: that I'm I'm really interested in in language and culture

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Speaker 1: and um, so that's that's what I'm doing. But I

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Speaker 1: want to write about all kinds of things over the

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Speaker 1: course of my career. So yeah, as you should. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So that was a great answer, and there's so much

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Speaker 1: to impact there, and I think we will because I

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Speaker 1: want to start with a sample, super easy question. Can

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Speaker 1: you give us a brief rundown on the history of

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Speaker 1: the English language and perhaps particularly when it comes to

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Speaker 1: this question of is it sexist? Because you talked about

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Speaker 1: that a little bit in the book, right right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So you know, the English language has such a storied

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Speaker 1: past um as as many languages do. But um, you know,

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Speaker 1: and this is the other fun thing about socio linguistics

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Speaker 1: is that you get to track how things like wars

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Speaker 1: and epidemics actually to to you know, be talking book

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Speaker 1: all about it. Um can inform how languages evolve. So

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Speaker 1: let me think of how I wanna tell this story

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Speaker 1: in a succinct manner. So basically we can start back

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Speaker 1: in the fifth century a D. This was long ago,

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Speaker 1: folks Um. The fifth century a D. That's when this

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Speaker 1: trio of Germanic tribes from Scandinavia showed up in the

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Speaker 1: British aisles unannounced. Um. And you know, we don't know

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Speaker 1: if it was peaceful or violent, but you know, probably violent.

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Speaker 1: And Um. Those tribes spoke this language called English UM.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't quite remember how to pronounce the name

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Speaker 1: of the language that they spoke, but it sounded like

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Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings language. Um. And so this lingo,

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Speaker 1: along with some of the North Germanic languages spoken by Vikings,

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Speaker 1: pushed Britain's Celtic languages to the outskirts of the country UM.

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Speaker 1: And so the product of all of these languages intermingling

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Speaker 1: um is what we call Old English UM. And it's

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Speaker 1: totally incomprehensible today, but you know, you might have come

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Speaker 1: across some Old English UM if you took nerdy language

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Speaker 1: courses in college like I did. UM. Anyway, Old English

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Speaker 1: was spoken until precisely the year ten sixty six a d.

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Speaker 1: And that's when the Duke of Normandy Um, who was

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Speaker 1: from France, this terrifying little man came in Um. It

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Speaker 1: came into England and murdered a bunch of people and

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Speaker 1: brought with him an early form of French UM. And

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Speaker 1: so that happened, and it was all very violent. But

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Speaker 1: then what was even more violent, speaking of epidemics, was

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Speaker 1: that the Black Death swooped in and killed off about

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Speaker 1: a third of the population UM. And so by the

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Speaker 1: fourteenth century, Um English had become the dominant language of Britain. Again,

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Speaker 1: not not Old French, but at this point English had

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Speaker 1: been influenced so heavily by Old French UM that it

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Speaker 1: gave us a new form, which was Middle English. And

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Speaker 1: then a few centuries go by, and a bunch of

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Speaker 1: stuff happens, like the Great vowel shift UM. And by

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Speaker 1: the fifteen hundreds, the traveled enabled British have started mingling

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Speaker 1: with you know, a ton of different people around the world,

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Speaker 1: and so globalization was starting to happen a little bit.

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Speaker 1: The European Renaissance was starting to happen a little bit,

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Speaker 1: and UM the printing press was invented, which was really

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Speaker 1: important for UM language standardization. So all of this starts

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Speaker 1: to happen. The first Webster's Dictionary was printed. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it was Websters. The first dictionary was printed.

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Speaker 1: It had about dred words. The sixteen hundreds come along.

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Speaker 1: Colonization of North America takes place, and that North American

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Speaker 1: English UM starts to evolve, and that influenced by French

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Speaker 1: and Spanish and the West African slave trade, UM, and

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Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution happens, and then the Internet happens, and

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Speaker 1: UM a bunch of happens, and then we have contemporary

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Speaker 1: American English. It was a great timeline. I like it.

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Speaker 1: Sorry that was kind of long winded, but the history

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Speaker 1: of English is so dramatic. I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: sacctly describe it. Yes, Yes, that was a very big question,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciate you. I think you did a really

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Speaker 1: great job getting that together. Yeah. So, going off of that,

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Speaker 1: you kind of discuss um how the English language isn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily sexist so much as like the people in power

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Speaker 1: have used it absolutely. Yeah, So there's nothing inherent about

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Speaker 1: the thousand consonants of English that would make it inherently sexist. UM.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as the story of the history of

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Speaker 1: English shows culture and human beings and how we interact

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Speaker 1: with each other and how we colonize and how we standardize,

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Speaker 1: really has a huge effect on on the way that

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Speaker 1: language moves. And so you know, many of the characters

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Speaker 1: in the story of the history of English our men,

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Speaker 1: you know, the army dudes, and the aristocracy, and the

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Speaker 1: merchants and labors and the printers um, who you know,

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Speaker 1: invented the printing press, um, and um started printing standardized

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Speaker 1: English grammar guides, UM. The dictionary makers, the industry and

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Speaker 1: technology folks. You know, because we live in a society

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Speaker 1: where historically it hasn't been as easy for women and

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Speaker 1: other marginalized folks to to do cool things from a

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Speaker 1: high position of power. UM. It's it's been hard for

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Speaker 1: them to define the world from the top down. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as it turns out, women do have

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Speaker 1: a huge, huge, enormous impact on how language evolves from

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Speaker 1: the bottom up, which is its own um sort of

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Speaker 1: even more important kind of power. UM. And that's what

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Speaker 1: the rest of words. Let us about really, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: um so sort of really I know you talk about

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Speaker 1: and we've talked about this in an episode we did

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Speaker 1: in the past, of this sort of devolving of words

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Speaker 1: like if you look at um like master and mistress

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Speaker 1: for example. UM, so can you talk about that a

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Speaker 1: little bit? Yeah, absolutely so. UM. In English we have

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Speaker 1: these two forms of semantic change called pejuration and amelioration.

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Speaker 1: And pejoration describes a process of how words over time,

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Speaker 1: where a word that starts out with a neutral or

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Speaker 1: positive meaning eventually devolves to mean something negative, and amelioration

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Speaker 1: is the opposite it process. So sadly, nearly every word

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Speaker 1: the English language offers to describe a woman has at

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Speaker 1: some point during its lifespan been colored some shade of obscene. Um.

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Speaker 1: And there was this linguist name Muriel Schultz Um who

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Speaker 1: wrote this nine paper called the Semantic Derogation of Woman,

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Speaker 1: and in it she describes this process and looks at

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Speaker 1: so many of the words um, for which this process

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Speaker 1: is true. Um. And you know, it's no coincidence that

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Speaker 1: she wrote this paper in nineteen because you know, the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, with the second wave feminist movement, that's when

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Speaker 1: we really saw the dawn of the study of feminist

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Speaker 1: socio linguistics. So it is relatively new, um, and you know,

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Speaker 1: expanding all the time and becoming more intersectional all the time.

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Speaker 1: And when when young readers of the book, who who

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Speaker 1: hold a complex intersection of identities come to me and

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Speaker 1: they tell me, like, I want to write about linguistics now,

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Speaker 1: it's just like makes me so be because we're really, um,

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Speaker 1: we're missing a lot of voices in the world of

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Speaker 1: feminist social linguistics. And there are a ton of people

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Speaker 1: doing really important work um in the field, but not

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Speaker 1: enough of them. So that's another conversation. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean we can compare certain minimal pairs of words, like

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Speaker 1: you talked about master and mistress. You know, these terms

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Speaker 1: come to English by way of old French, and and

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Speaker 1: initially both of them indicated a person in a position

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Speaker 1: of authority, like a male and female heads of household. Um.

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Speaker 1: But you know, mistress obviously, as we know, it devolved

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Speaker 1: over time to mean, you know, a sexually promiscuous woman

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Speaker 1: with whom a married man um for indicates. And meanwhile

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Speaker 1: master um continues to describe a man who's in charge

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Speaker 1: of something like a household or an animal, or a

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Speaker 1: person who's conquered a difficult skill, like like a chef

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Speaker 1: or a karate master. Another example is buddy and sissy um,

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Speaker 1: which you know you to mean. They were just synonyms

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Speaker 1: for brother and sister. But of course buddy ameliorated to

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Speaker 1: mean you know, a comrade or a pal. You know,

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Speaker 1: it has this friendly, cozy connotation, while sissy devolved to

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Speaker 1: come to mean you know, sort of a weak, overly

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Speaker 1: effeminate man who God forbid reminds you of a woman. Um.

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Speaker 1: Sir and madam is another minimal pair. But yeah, you

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Speaker 1: you come across a lot of those. But it's really

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Speaker 1: interesting because you know, so many of the words that

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Speaker 1: we think of as incredibly degrading towards women, like oh god,

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Speaker 1: and here's where I'm going to have to skirt around

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Speaker 1: some of these curse words. So slut actually started out

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Speaker 1: as a fairly neutral term. Um. You know, hundreds of

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Speaker 1: years ago it was used to describe a sort of

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Speaker 1: messy or untidy woman, and um, it was sometimes used

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Speaker 1: to describe men as well. Um. Chocer at a point

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Speaker 1: describes a male character as sluttish, which I find entertaining

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Speaker 1: um to describe you know, this character slovenliness. UM. But

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Speaker 1: what we find with slut, and what we find with

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Speaker 1: so many terms for women, is that over time they

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Speaker 1: they come to mean a sexual slur. That's where they

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Speaker 1: end up. And that really reflects the position of women

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Speaker 1: in our culture. UM. You know, when we go to

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Speaker 1: insult a woman, we can't help but reduce her to

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Speaker 1: a sexual object. UM, whether that's by way of calling

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Speaker 1: her some type of animal or some type of edible

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Speaker 1: treat um, or just plain old, you know, calling her

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Speaker 1: a prostitute, which in itself is a problematic word. Um.

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Speaker 1: As you know, sex work is completely legitimate. UM. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I mean that that was a fascinating thing to discover,

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Speaker 1: and then what was also cool was to to learn

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Speaker 1: and share the information about reclamation um, because a reclamation

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Speaker 1: is sometimes you know, a controversial subject too, because you know,

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Speaker 1: not everybody is going to agree on which words deserve

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Speaker 1: to be abolished rather than reclaimed. And you know, something

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Speaker 1: that we see in culture is that, um. You know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes gendered insults will go out of style as soon

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Speaker 1: as the underlying belief in them does. So it's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why you never hear someone you know

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Speaker 1: call a woman an old maid or a spinster in earnest,

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Speaker 1: you know, really trying to damage them or disparage them anymore,

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Speaker 1: because it's no longer completely reprehensible to be a woman

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Speaker 1: who's over you know, thirty five and unmarried. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, there were people, there were, you know,

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Speaker 1: feminists who I respect, who thought it was you know,

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Speaker 1: who would not have named their book word slut because

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Speaker 1: they think that slut is one of those words that

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Speaker 1: deserves to just go away entirely because it's problematic to

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Speaker 1: have a special word for women's promiscuity at all. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with them there, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: might be slightly more of an optimist um when I

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Speaker 1: think about reclamation, because I like to think, you know,

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Speaker 1: if if we can only choose to use rendered insults

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Speaker 1: in positive contexts, so words slut or talking about you know, sluttiness,

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Speaker 1: even if it has to do with sex in in

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Speaker 1: a positive way, like I had such a slutty night

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Speaker 1: last night, it was amazing. But if we can only

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Speaker 1: use bitch in context of like bad bitch, badass, bitch,

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Speaker 1: me and my bitches, um, And by the way we

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Speaker 1: have women in hip hop in nineties hip hop largely

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Speaker 1: to thank for the reclamation of the word bitch. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, we can almost they almost singlehandedly um or

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Speaker 1: responsible for reclaiming that word. Um. If we can only

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Speaker 1: use these terms in positive context, then as the next

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Speaker 1: generation comes up hearing those contexts, then they will no

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Speaker 1: longer think of a slut or a bitch in a

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Speaker 1: negative light. Um. And you know, if we can do that,

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Speaker 1: and then when we go to insult people, because Lord knows,

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Speaker 1: I love to insult people, if when we insult people

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Speaker 1: we can target their behavior rather than their gender, then

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Speaker 1: we can be more inclusive, more specific, more incisive. We

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Speaker 1: can be meaner in fact when we when we criticize

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Speaker 1: their behavior, because we're actually addressing the thing about them

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Speaker 1: that we don't like, rather than just saying like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're a bitch, you're a slut, you're a c U

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Speaker 1: n t um. And the history of that word is

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Speaker 1: also fascinating and it and again did not start out

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Speaker 1: as a negative thing. Um. But yeah, that's why I

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Speaker 1: you know, the naming the book word slot was sort

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Speaker 1: of this um, the statement of of reclamation and my

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Speaker 1: belief and in using words only in in positive context

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Speaker 1: that have so long been used against us, because you know,

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Speaker 1: a more equal world is also one where less offense

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Speaker 1: is taken to language because there's um, there's nothing disempowering

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Speaker 1: about it, and language can really um work to empower

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Speaker 1: or disempower people in a in a truly material way.

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Speaker 1: So that's my long way to answer to your question,

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Speaker 1: perfect Um. Yeah, it's it's funny because I've I've shared

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Speaker 1: this story before on the show. But yes, as podcasters,

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Speaker 1: we do get a lot of criticism on our voices

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Speaker 1: and what we say. And one of my favorites is

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Speaker 1: back before I was even a voice, I was just

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Speaker 1: a producer. Um. I got a comment that said, I

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Speaker 1: know the producer of this show and she's a huge slut.

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Speaker 1: And I think about that all the time. I'd like

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Speaker 1: to I actually know me who are out of nowhere

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Speaker 1: like he put out of his way to insult the producer. Um.

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Speaker 1: But has anybody ever called Angelos slut? There's that? Well.

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Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting that um and it and

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Speaker 1: it highlights some of that that male defaultness again when

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Speaker 1: we have words like man slut, um, which highlights the

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Speaker 1: notion that you know, someone who's contemptuously promiscuous must be female. Um.

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Speaker 1: If we have to attack that masculine model, fire onto

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Speaker 1: it um in order for that to apply to men. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we see the same thing or similar

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Speaker 1: thing with with words like man, bag, man, bun, guideliner,

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Speaker 1: you know, which which served to imply that objects often

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Speaker 1: thought to be frivolous, like makeup and purses, are inherently feminine.

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Speaker 1: And I in a in a former career, I was

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Speaker 1: a beauty editor, so I can talk about the history

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Speaker 1: of makeup and and men and how it is not

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Speaker 1: actually inherently feminine. But that's another podcast. Um yeah, and

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Speaker 1: how you know, and my other sort of pet peeves,

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Speaker 1: and we all have language pet peeves. But the fun

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Speaker 1: thing about being a linguists and some something that I

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Speaker 1: try to communicate is that we're not interested in the

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Speaker 1: way that people should talk. We're interested in the way

426
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: that people do talk. And so um, you know, correcting grammar.

427
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: That's something that people sometimes ask me when they hear that.

428
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: You know, I've studied linguistics that are like, oh, are

429
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: you always correcting people's grammar in your head? And I'm like, no,

430
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: just the opposite. You know, I'm not a pedant, I'm

431
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: not a grammarian. I'm I'm interested in the precise opposite,

432
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 1: you know. I want to know how people really do

433
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: talk in their most natural state and what that says

434
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: about their background and their experiences. And so I try

435
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: to remain as a non judgmental and as curious as

436
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: possible about language. And I think that in general that's

437
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: a that's a really good way to approach it. Um.

438
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: But yeah, I do. That said, I do have my

439
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: own little pet peeves, and some of them are are when,

440
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: you know, when people say things like, you know, girl

441
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: boss and she e O and mom preneur, you know,

442
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: they sort of like cutesify um terms that are are

443
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: not inherently gendered um, which highlight and perpetuate the notion

444
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: that the words boss and entrepreneur and CEO are sort

445
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: of tacitly coded male um. Even when people call me

446
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: a girl boss as a compliment, like I just cringe

447
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: because I'm like, what, First of all, I'm not the

448
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: boss of anyone. I literally have no employees. But also

449
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: if you're gonna call me that, please don't call me

450
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: a girl boss because let's not let's not perpetuate and

451
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: reflect these stereotypes, shall we right, And that's not a

452
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: double whammy in itself, because obviously a girl is a

453
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: juvenile to begin with diminutive. Yeah, not only does it

454
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: have to be hey, oh you're something special because you're

455
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: not male, so we have to say you're a female

456
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: of swords, but not only that you're a child or

457
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: you're a girl. So stop. I know, can you imagine

458
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: calling some six year old man a boy boss? It

459
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: would be so silly. I just wouldn't make sense going

460
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: to now, Yeah, I know, give it a try. We

461
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: have some more for you listeners, but first we have

462
00:27:47,480 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: a quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.

463
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsored. Because, as we've discussed, the media, love Love,

464
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: Love Love loves to critique female women voices, um, how

465
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: to stop vocal fry, how not to up talk, stop

466
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: saying sorry, stop using emoji, stop using exclamation points, and

467
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: emails and largely it seems like what it's boiling down

468
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: to is telling women and other marginalized communities to to

469
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: fit into this conform to this male dominated workspace. So

470
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: what are some ways that you have found or that

471
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: you think that we can find our own voices and

472
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: own our own voices in those spaces. Yeah, yeah, you're

473
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: absolutely right, Um, these spaces. I mean, culture in general

474
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: wants women and and folks of other marginalized identities who

475
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: don't speak quote unquote standard English, which is of course

476
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: the standardized English um that was put in place by

477
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: you know, stuffy old white men. They want, they want

478
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: everyone else to accommodate to that standard because we all

479
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: grew up thinking that that is proper English. Um, it's

480
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: prescriptive grammar. Um, that's the grammar that your English teacher

481
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: teaches you. Um. But really there is nothing inherently better

482
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: about it. And in fact, attempting to keep language from

483
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: moving forward or changing is a feudal effort because it

484
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: is going to change, and young women are you know,

485
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: going to be the ones to to change it. Um.

486
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: And that's what linguists have found time and time again

487
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: that young people tend to, you know, be quicker on

488
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: the uptake of linguistic change than older generations, and young

489
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: women tend to be about half a generation ahead of

490
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: young men. And so you know, really, when it comes

491
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: to linguistic innovation, we should be celebrating that and and

492
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: that doesn't only have to do with you know, innovations

493
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: that young women make, but you know, especially with with

494
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: everything that's that's going on in our country right now,

495
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: I can't not address how so often African American English

496
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: is criticized as being improper English or poorer grammar without acknowledging.

497
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: And this is something that you learn in linguistics, and

498
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for that that it is such a

499
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: complex and sophisticated systematic dialect um that is a product

500
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: of Black Americans oppression but also their innovation. Um. And

501
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: Black Americans grow up learning from an extremely young age

502
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: to code switch so that you know, in in certain

503
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: communities they're speaking one dialect and then maybe in an

504
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: office spaces or or white spaces, they're they're learning to

505
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: speak another dialect. And that's a form of bilingualism that

506
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: should be celebrated rather than condemned. But you know, I

507
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: remember growing up in Baltimore, you know, my English teachers

508
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: in middle school in high school criticizing Black students voices

509
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: when they weren't in class, when they were in the hallway,

510
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: um and you know, telling them not to use this

511
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: verb tense or or you know that pronunciation and um

512
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: that really perpetuates stereotypes and in an extremely negative, profound

513
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: way that that does keep people um from power, and

514
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: that does promote racism. But yeah, I mean, I think

515
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, when you're talking about only your voice in

516
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: some of these spaces, it is challenging because sometimes a

517
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: person's most authentic voice will you know, be a hindrance

518
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: to them, even though there's nothing inherently wrong with their speech.

519
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: In fact, their speech is probably more sophisticated and more

520
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: inventive and more communicative than the speech of you know,

521
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: their bosses. And actually, linguists have an acronym for the

522
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: least innovative population of English speakers there, non mobile, older

523
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: rural males, and linguists call them norms, which I just

524
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: think is fantastic. Um. So you know, when we're when

525
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: we're at work, or or certainly when you're you know,

526
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: running for political office, or when you're you know, vying

527
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: for any sort of position of power, the expectation is

528
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: for you to accommodate to the speech of norms. And

529
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: you know, in in some workplaces, it's going to be

530
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: more acceptable to push back against that, you know, say,

531
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: oh hey, I read in words slut that UH had,

532
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: vocal fry and up talk and using like every other word. Um,

533
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: these are actually signs of linguistic savvy. And I can

534
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: point you to a number of empirical studies that disprove

535
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: these problematic standards that you've always held. UM. But obviously,

536
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: and not every workplace that is that going to be appropriate.

537
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: So sometimes what I like to tell people is that

538
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: when you get criticisms from a boss or something like that,

539
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: that you need to stop using vocal fry or so

540
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: many filler words or exclamation points in your emails or

541
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is. Um. You might have to briefly,

542
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, temporarily accommodate in order you know, not to

543
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: get fired in order to keep your job. UM. But

544
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: then you can go back to your desk, or you

545
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: can go home, not wasting any time second guessing yourself.

546
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: It's really, you know, it's almost a form of gas

547
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: lighting when someone tells you that there's something wrong with

548
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: your speech, even though there's actually something wrong with their standards. UM.

549
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: But you can go back to your desk, or go home,

550
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: or log off Skype or Zoom or whatever service you're using,

551
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: and you can at least not waste any time worrying

552
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: that there is something inherently wrong about you, that your

553
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: voice is you know, naturally inauthoritative, and that you need

554
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: to change. You know, we all know what we need

555
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: to do in those spaces. Temporarily, we need to you know,

556
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: just talk like our bosses for the time being. But

557
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: at least you will have the confident knowledge that your

558
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: speech is there for a logical, powerful, provable reason. And

559
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: so in you know, a couple of years, a few years,

560
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: when you become the boss, you can resist perpetuating those

561
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: standards when you now have young women and other folks

562
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: coming up under you. Um, because you know, so many

563
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: of the criticisms that I myself have received in the

564
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 1: workplace of saying like too much or you know, being

565
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: to quote unquote opinionated or allowed or um any of

566
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: these other criticisms. Yes, so so much of them have

567
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: come from female bosses, and often their criticism is even

568
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: harsher because they figured, you know, I had to do this,

569
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: I had to fight tooth and nail to climb the

570
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: corporate ladder. And these are always white women, by the way, um,

571
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, the Karen's of the world. They they you know,

572
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: they think I had I had to accommodate, I had

573
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: to fight my way up the corporate ladder. So this

574
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: is just par for the course, and you need to

575
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: do it too, and I'm going to hold you to

576
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: an even stricter standard. UM. Meanwhile, like these these speech qualities,

577
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: like like in vocal fry and and so, which of

578
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: the slaying that comes from African American and English that

579
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, eventually within a few years ends up taking

580
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: a seat at the table of everyday English. Um. These

581
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: are qualities that everybody ends up using um in a

582
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: in a number of years. It's just that there are

583
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: these growing pains because when norms here this language, they

584
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: you know, subconsciously feel the grounds of linguistic change quaking

585
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: beneath them, you know. And this is a sign that

586
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: the that a new generation is rising up and coming

587
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: into power, and they don't like that, especially when those

588
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: people are people of color or women or both. So, yeah,

589
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: my my advice is really just to not let it

590
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,959
Speaker 1: get you down, not let these criticisms get you down,

591
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: not let them distract you. Remain open minded about your

592
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: speech and non judgmental about your speech, but also non

593
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: judgmental of the speech of others who who aren't like you,

594
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: and then when you're the boss, make it an inclusive,

595
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: empowering space for folks who aren't norms. Right. And I

596
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: did love reading in your book when you were talking

597
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: specifically about when the fact that the black community would

598
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: coin these terms or um language like woke had been

599
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: really taken over. It's now blown obviously all kinds of

600
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: ways um and it's kind of ignored whence it becomes

601
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: popular and becomes a term that is acknowledged that it

602
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: was ever started. It began with the black community and

603
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: trying to beg those people that are not black to

604
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: understand what is happening in whatever political or even just

605
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: humanitarian a lot types of ways that their rights were

606
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: being taken away in any type of form. And I

607
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: did like that you did talk about that a little bit.

608
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little more, And I know it

609
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: wasn't too big of an excerpt, but you were talking

610
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: about how it has originated there and how it kind

611
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: of just how big of an influence it does have

612
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: in everyday life. Oh. Absolutely, I mean, we have we

613
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 1: have African American folks and speakers of African American English

614
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: to think for all of our treasured slang terms in English,

615
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, terms as new as woke and squad and

616
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: boy and as old as the use of bad to

617
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: mean good and the phrase I mean. I talked to

618
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: this amazing linguist um at the University of Texas at

619
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: Austin named Sonia Lainhardt, who studies African American English and

620
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: women um, and she told me that the first time

621
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: she ever heard a white male news anchor on the

622
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: television use the phrase, she nearly spit out her drink

623
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: because that derived from African American English. And you know,

624
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: not only that, but so many of today's most beloved

625
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: slang terms that we see used on social media all

626
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: the time, like throwing shade and read and work and

627
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: yass um and iconic. These are terms that are so

628
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 1: often attributed to you know, broad City or the Internet,

629
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: but they derive from ballroom culture, which was a community

630
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: of extremely marginalised black and Latin X you know, trans

631
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: and gay drag performers, m whose heyday was in nineteen

632
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: eighties ballroom New York. And we so often fail to

633
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: recognize and you know, it's not, you know, explicitly everyone's fault.

634
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: It's just it's our culture. You know, we don't want

635
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: to give credit where credit is due, and we don't

636
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge, um, the originators of some of this language.

637
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: And by the way, like sort of like what you

638
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: were saying, these folks don't create slang because they think

639
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: it will be trendy and catchy and they want to

640
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: create a hashtag and they want to become Instagram famous.

641
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: They create this language because it's a matter of solidarity

642
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: and survival. You know, when when ballroom performers were using

643
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: some of that language in the eighties, it was so

644
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: they could identify who was safe to trust, who was

645
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: a part of their their group, um, So that they

646
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 1: could avoid persecution, so that they could avoid violence. UM.

647
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: And that is so much of why so many queer

648
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 1: communities and communities of color in with language, UM, because

649
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: they're you know, they're at the risk of of really

650
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: you know, real life violence. UM. And that's such an

651
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: important thing to recognize. And so it's like it's like

652
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: everything else, you know, we're seeing so much communication right

653
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: now about how you know, we wish that America loved

654
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: black people as much as they as we love black culture.

655
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: And that has to do with music and um and

656
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: fashion and very much has to do with language. And

657
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: so you know, the least we can do if we're

658
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: going to use some of the products of of these

659
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: communities is to support them at every turn. And I

660
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: talked a lot with Sonia Laine hard about this, and

661
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: she very generously told me, you know, we don't have

662
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: to stop using words like like woke and boy and

663
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: seven um. And these are just a few of the

664
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: countless examples. But what we have to do is show

665
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: up for these communities or else we're hypocrit it's um

666
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: and because at the end of the day, you know,

667
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: our language and our politics are connected, our language and

668
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: our ethics are connected, UM. And we need to remember that. So, yeah,

669
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: thank you for bringing that up. I love that. Yeah.

670
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 1: I loved in your book how you described women's conversations

671
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: like jazz and then particularly black women's conversation sort of

672
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: like speech building, a community building and consensus, because I've

673
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: never thought of it in that way, but that was

674
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: a really cool way to think of it because a

675
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: lot of the things that we do demonize the likes,

676
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: which I also like how you broke down there four

677
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: different types of them, and they oh there are six.

678
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: There are six six. Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

679
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: Those things that we demonize are sort of a way

680
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: of yes, I hear you. I'm like with you as

681
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: we're going through this conversational journey and you're building something

682
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: absolutely yeah. Yeah. So right, so you're talking about how

683
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: there's this linguist who has dedicated a lot of her

684
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: career to understanding the many forms of the word like

685
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: in English, and they're actually six of them, and they

686
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: all serve a very distinct purpose. And um, we don't,

687
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 1: you know, we don't even notice or acknowledge that, because

688
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: we just blame you know, teenage girls for all these

689
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: likes and for ruining the English language, even though um,

690
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: most people of all ages and all genders use all

691
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: six um, because they all are extremely useful. But yeah,

692
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: you were talking about them. You know, this the style

693
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: of talk that this one linguist, in particular, Jennifer Coates noticed, um.

694
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: In women's conversations, um is is likened to a jam session,

695
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: like a jazz jam session. UM, Because in conversations among women,

696
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: you'll often hear overlapping talk, you know, speakers repeating one

697
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: another or rephrasing one another's words, UM, and everyone is

698
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: sort of working together to construct meaning. UM. And so

699
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of like one speaker at a

700
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: time rule doesn't apply even though you see that one

701
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: speaker at a time structure and a lot of conversations

702
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 1: among men because you know, and these are these are

703
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: large generalizations obviously, but um, it's interesting to think about

704
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: how a lot of the time, you know, women are

705
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: conditioned also, these are these are not you know, ways

706
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: of talking that we are born understanding. We're we're conditioned

707
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: to understand them and to use them. But um, you know,

708
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: women often you know, perceive the conversational floor on a

709
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: horizontal level as a way to you know, create meaning

710
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: and build solidarity, whereas men oftentimes see it um as

711
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: a in a vertical way, um, in order to express

712
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: individual achievement. Um. And so that's why you see this

713
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: this jam session E style. In in the talk of

714
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: women and um and yeah, Sonia Elainhardt Um had talked

715
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: about how minimal responses are something you so often see

716
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,479
Speaker 1: in the speech of of black women's communities and how

717
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: they especially are are incredibly savvy at using things like

718
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: minimal responses and those are our words like mm hmm,

719
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: and you're right, and yes, um, to build on one

720
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: another's points and to uh support one another and um

721
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: sort of emotionally support each other. Um. And these are

722
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: things that are criticized even though they're not inherently bad. Actually,

723
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: as recently as yesterday, somebody tagged me in an Instagram post,

724
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: a new Instagram post where someone was, you know, perpetuating

725
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: this information that we see all the time, where they

726
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: were saying, like, ladies, we need to stop using filler

727
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: words like just you know actually, and I feel like

728
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: because these are just words that we have all learned

729
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: to use to soften the confidence of our convictions. And

730
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: just as we have been taught to express insecurity about

731
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: our appearance, we've been taught to use these hedges or

732
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: filler words. They don't even know the word hedge. Um.

733
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: We've been taught to use these filler words to express

734
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: us insecurity of what we're saying. And we need to

735
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: stop using them because that is just telling men that

736
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: we really are insecure. But that's just a first impression

737
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: and it's based on nothing, it's based on no studies.

738
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: The linguists who have empirically looked into hedges, um, that's

739
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: a synonym for filler words. These are also known as

740
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: discourse Markers have found that they are so rarely used

741
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: to communicate insecurity UM, and that they are much more

742
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: often used to to do some of those same things

743
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: like build solidarity and check for the face needs of

744
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: everyone in a conversation UM. And linguists have found that

745
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: often speech lacking in legs you knows and actually comes

746
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: across as two careful and robotic and unfriendly and these

747
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: these you know legs and you knows. And actually these

748
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: hedges are only used more by women than men because

749
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: women more often than not dive into sensitive territory during

750
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: their discussions, so men aren't having as sensitive of conversations

751
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 1: and so these speech characteristics aren't as useful to them. UM.

752
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: But when women are talking about everything from families to

753
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: relationships to therapy to you know, politics, UM, to social justice,

754
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, you need some of these hedges in order

755
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: to account for the face needs of everyone in a

756
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: discussion and to sort of soften really sensitive, oftentimes harsh

757
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: and hard to hear sentiments. So yeah, I'm so right

758
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: when I start to think like, oh, everybody already knows

759
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: this word slept stuff I like get tagged in a

760
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: post like that and I'm like, oh, no, they do not.

761
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: We have a little bit more for you listeners, but

762
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break for work from

763
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: our sponsor and her back. Thank you sponsor. Oh my gosh,

764
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: I have so many things I want to ask you,

765
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: but we would be remiss if we didn't talk about cursing. Um,

766
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: because this is actually something I've been thinking about a lot.

767
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: I had a friend who, uh, she's actually my other

768
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: podcast host over on Savor Lauren. She curses a lot,

769
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: and she pointed out to me, like a month ago,

770
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: if you think about it, you know, we say motherfucker,

771
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: what if we said father, say son of a bit? Like,

772
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: it's always an assault towards women. That's in the end. Um.

773
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: And so you mentioned the history of the sea word

774
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: and a bitch and slut and me claiming these things.

775
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: Is there like a particular one that you would like

776
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: to dive into the history of and just women in

777
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: cursing in general, because we do have a real anxiety

778
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: about that, as you sort of alluded to. Yeah, yeah,

779
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: So there was this study. So basically I guess to

780
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: give a little bit of context because we are talking

781
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: about so many topics the this book words lit. I'm

782
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: sure some readers who are are listeners who are unfamiliar,

783
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: like what is this book that talks about so many things? Basically,

784
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: Like every chapter tackles a different subject having to do

785
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: with language and gender, from insults to grammatical gender, to

786
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: the conversations among women when men aren't around, and myths

787
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: about gossip and things like that too, cursing to genitalia,

788
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: naming slang throughout history. It like runs the gamut. It's

789
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: it's it's a big old beast. Um, it's a one

790
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: on one. It's it's a big one introduction. Absolutely. Yeah,

791
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: it's funny that you say that because I in the

792
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: early days of like putting together, UM, the outline for

793
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: this book, I kind of based it on my first

794
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: sex Gender and Language college syllabus the because I figured, like,

795
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: if I fell in love with this material in this class,

796
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: then that then probably work on other people too. Obviously,

797
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: it has gotten pretty far from my college syllabus. Um.

798
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: There there is no chapter in my Sex, Gender and

799
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: Language class called get an ode to Cursing while Female,

800
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 1: which is the chapter that you're referencing. Um. But I'm

801
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: a potty mouth too, and so I had to include it.

802
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was really interested in talking about cursing

803
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: because I do curse so very much, and I'm also

804
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: like so resentful of the stereotypes that people who curse

805
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: just can't think of anything better to say. And I

806
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: was like, I really And also, you know, I I

807
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: was so mystified by why I, as a female, was

808
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: perceived as being you know, even more crass or almost

809
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: more intriguing in a way for cursing, um than men.

810
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: And so I found this study that was looking into

811
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: young men's and women's self reported reasons for cursing, and

812
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: it was it was pretty interesting because, um, I related

813
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: to a lot of the answers that the women in

814
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: this study gave. Um, you know a lot of them

815
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: talked about how there are reasons for cursing. Well, first

816
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: of all, I want to mention that linguist who studied

817
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: cursing have found that cursing is not inherently aggressive or violent,

818
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: even though it is perceived that way, which is also

819
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: why it's perceived as an inherently more masculine thing. But

820
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: in very few instances of everyday cursing are people using

821
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: it to convey aggression or violence. You know, there are

822
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: in fact forms of polite cursing, as in the sentence

823
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: oh my god, this banana breag you just baked is

824
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: the ship or I thing love your jacket? You know,

825
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: these are actively polite forms of cursing. They might be crassed,

826
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: they might be bleeped on I Heart radio, but you

827
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: know they are not inherently um violent. Um So. Anyway,

828
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: that some of these self reported reasons for cursing by

829
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: women interested me because they were having to do with

830
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: um personality and emphasis and crafting a certain identity. You know,

831
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: these were some of the reasons why women cursed, where

832
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: men self reported that they cursed just because it was expected.

833
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: And I thought that was interesting because people have this

834
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: sort of um awareness that there are these gender disparities

835
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: in our expectations of how men and women should use

836
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: language with regard to cursing. And I was thinking in

837
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: my head, you know, like I do that too. I

838
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: cursed for emphasis, for personality, for hutzpuff, for shock value.

839
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: Um never because it's expected. Sometimes I'll actively do it

840
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: just to like shake things up in a business meeting,

841
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Just like Let's see what

842
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: if I throw up, if I throw an F word

843
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: out here on one of these stuffy people in suits,

844
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: gonna do um and that, and that's sort of an

845
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: act of, you know, rebellion against expect asians and an

846
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: act of crafting a certain identity. And I think that's

847
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: what a lot of women do with cursing. UM. But yeah,

848
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of curse words to um like

849
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: to your point, are reflecting a masculine point of view,

850
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: and we talk about and some of them are are

851
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: profoundly homophobic as well. UM. And so you know, I

852
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: I love cursing, and I love the phono symbolism of cursing,

853
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: the sort of you know, hard plosive consonants, the cuz

854
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: and the puzz and the puzz and the uz. I

855
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 1: just like love the power and those sounds. Um. Those

856
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: are also some of the first sounds that babies utter

857
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: in their babbling phase, so they're sort of some of

858
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: our favorite sounds from birth. And so UM. You know

859
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: something that that I sometimes like to experiment with and

860
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: invite other people to experiment with, is um like creating

861
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 1: our own curse words, like in the in the book.

862
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: At a point I suggest us and do I buy

863
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: any means envision our culture doing away with our current

864
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: vocabulary of curse words and replacing them with you know,

865
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: more feminist ones. No, but it is fun to think

866
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: about it. It is fun to kind of reframe our

867
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: perception of language um as you know, as one of like, oh,

868
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: we can get creative with this stuff. So um. One

869
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 1: of the ones that I that I suggests holy clit,

870
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: which I think is kind of fun. Um. You know. Obviously.

871
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: The other thing too, that's really interesting is that our

872
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: curse words really reflect, um, the standards and fears of

873
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: our culture. So in um Canadian French, for example, so

874
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: many of their curse words have to do with religion

875
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: and Catholicism, like tabianic like which means tabernacle, or I

876
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: don't even know how to say that I'm Jewish, so um.

877
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: But but um in in English, so many of our

878
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: curse words have to do with sex, right, and that

879
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: really you know, it's it's the puritanism of it all,

880
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: and and the scandal of sex um is what that

881
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: really reflects. But we also have a whole category of

882
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: cursing that's you know, schatology, um, like asked which I

883
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: know because you told me will be bleeped. I think

884
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: that's so funny. Why is asked not blieped, but asked?

885
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: I guess because asked is sort of subtly implying just

886
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: the cheeks, and then asked was a little more internal.

887
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: You could probably get away with you know, it's a

888
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: donkey thing or whatever. Like my favorite, like two of

889
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: my favorites, would be asked hat because I don't think

890
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: it's used. Just find that as a funny vision. That's

891
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: like it was a literal thing. I was like, ah,

892
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: that's you have an ask for a hat or you know,

893
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: something like Dick. Like that's one of my other favorite

894
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: was because it was a funny is not many I thought,

895
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: it's not as known as what do you mean Dick?

896
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: And I was like, but you know, he's a dick

897
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: or there a dick, you know stuff like that, and

898
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: it's kind of like people kind of confus if I'm

899
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: not saying, you know, any other car sports. But also

900
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: because of the sounds, is a really hard Yeah yeah exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah,

901
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: it's true like so so many of our and Dick

902
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: is like sort of the one outlier that paints um

903
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: you know, fallacism, and is that even a word fatacism

904
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: in a negative light? Um? Whereas we have so many

905
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: that portray you know, Volva's in in a negative light. Um.

906
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean not to men like douchebag, like

907
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: all these terms. Oh my god. This is a story

908
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 1: that I don't think I've ever told, like in an

909
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,879
Speaker 1: event or a podcast or anything before. But I remember, like,

910
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: it's so funny when you're experimenting with cursing for the

911
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: first time when you're a kid, because you're like so

912
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: intrigued by this language that you know is taboo. You

913
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: just like have a feeling is taboo. But but you

914
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: don't know what these individual words mean, and the only

915
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: way to learn what they mean is to like use them.

916
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: But sometimes you use them in a context that's like

917
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: so it's just like such a misstep. Like I remember

918
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: the first time I ever used the word douche, I

919
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: called my mom a douche. I was like seven. I

920
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: don't know where I heard it. I must have heard

921
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: it at school, uh, And I called my mom a

922
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: douche and she was just like what, Like, where did

923
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: you hear that? My mom was like a very composed scientist.

924
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: By the way, like my mom, I didn't really curse

925
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: in front of my parents in the way that I

926
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: genuinely do in my everyday life until I was like

927
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: in my twenties, because I just didn't think they could

928
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: handle it, because they're not really that vulgar. They're these

929
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: very like mild mannered scientists. But um yeah, I like

930
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: called my mom a douche and she was like, Amanda,

931
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 1: do you know what that is? And then of course

932
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: she very clinically described this like yeast infection causing even

933
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: like product that was invented because our culture thinks that

934
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: vaginas are dirty, um, when really there's some cleaning folks. Um.

935
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: But anyways, um yeah, that's just a funny story about

936
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: how like we just the way that we come to

937
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: use curse words or come to learn curse words is

938
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: such an awkward process. So like, why not make that

939
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: awkward process for the next generation just a little more feminist,

940
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, have your seven year old come to you

941
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: and be like, holy clip, pepper pig is on again

942
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: or whatever that is. As soon as I thought, I

943
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: don't think I have ever thought I would hear, so

944
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 1: thank you for that. I enjoyed that one. So right

945
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: now as we record this, probably by the time it

946
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 1: comes out it's no longer true. But right now it

947
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: is Pride month, um, and we are seeing this massive

948
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: social push for change and protesting, and and your book

949
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: you you write um about how in the right hands, uh,

950
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: language can change the world, and that you say it

951
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: may sound melodramatic, but it isn't. Um. Yeah, so can

952
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: you I guess to close this out because this we

953
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: have talked. We've talked a little bit about those things,

954
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: about how the black community and the gay community has

955
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: given us so much and they've been like these innovators

956
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: in language. And you have a chapter on the gay voice.

957
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: And while lesbians don't really have a gay voice, and

958
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: I feel like they are. There's so many things we

959
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: do take for granted when just to tag on because

960
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: this is a complete sub different subject. But I know

961
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about gender specifically, and obviously that's

962
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: a really big topic right now with some of the

963
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: um things with our novelists who people want to love.

964
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to call her she who shall not

965
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: be named, but just that conversation, I know you had

966
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: a whole chapter on that and I found it really

967
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: fascinating because you kind of just instead of like being antagonistic,

968
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: you took down the actual history of it. So if

969
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: you can align both of those things. Yeah, I know

970
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: that's two different No, No, I think like I think

971
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: the through line really is that you know, there's there

972
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: was some French philosopher who said that language is the

973
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: medium for humans, just as water as to fish. Like,

974
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: we create the world with language. We don't just reflect it,

975
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: we don't just describe it. We actively create the world

976
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: through the repetition of language through everything we say. And

977
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: that's a a theory called linguistic performativity, and it was

978
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: in part pioneered by the feminist icon Judith Butler, who

979
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: talked about gender performativity. And that's a whole that that's

980
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: kind of that's like gender studies class now. But um,

981
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: but it is it is so true that we cultivate

982
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: our beliefs through language. There is no other way to

983
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: do it. We don't have beliefs without language what we do.

984
00:58:55,120 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: And that's another theory called linguistic determinism versus linguistic relativism.

985
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: Um but yeah, but um, And this actually relates to

986
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: you know, some of what I'm I'm writing about in

987
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: the cult book UM as well is that you know,

988
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: ideology could not be instilled or proliferated without language. And

989
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: so the way that we describe things, whether it's gender

990
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: or sexuality or race, it not only you know, reflects

991
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: what we believe, but it creates a world. It creates

992
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: a system of beliefs, a culture of beliefs. And so

993
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: becoming aware of the histories of some of these words

994
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: and the history of how language develops UM can really better.

995
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: It can help us make better informed decisions about how

996
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 1: we want to use language. It can help us create

997
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: the world that we want to live in, or continue

998
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 1: to perpetuate a world that that isn't equal, and it

999
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: is problematic, and that is oppressive. And this isn't stuff

1000
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: that we learn in elementary or middle or high school.

1001
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: We don't learn about these things. We just come to

1002
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: use language so naturally. And so my whole mission with

1003
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: with socio linguistics, and it's one that I so hope

1004
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: continue is far past what I'm able to write is

1005
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: that I don't want to police anyone's language or force

1006
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: anyone to say anything. I don't want my language to

1007
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: be policed. I don't want people to tell me that

1008
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: I can't name my book words let I don't want

1009
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: people to tell me that singular they is ungrammatical. I

1010
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: don't want people to tell me any of that stuff.

1011
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: But really, what this information and why I'm so grateful

1012
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 1: to these linguists, why this stuff is important, is because

1013
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: it's allowing us to become more educated, so then we

1014
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: can make our own decisions about how we want to

1015
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: use language to create the world that we want to see. UM.

1016
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: And you know, there was this amazing linguist that I

1017
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: talked to a ton for this book named Lao Zaman

1018
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: who um studies language and gender, particularly as it relates

1019
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: to transgender communities. He's at the University of California, Santa Barbara,

1020
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: and he and I, he and I were really share

1021
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: a lot of of points, because you can get really

1022
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 1: pessimistic about a lot of things, UM, particularly when you

1023
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: see how like whenever there's a push for inclusive language,

1024
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: a lot of the times the opposition is like more

1025
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: powerful than the initial than the initial movement, and you

1026
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: have all this backlash and all this hate speech because

1027
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 1: people don't want to see language change, because people don't

1028
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: want to see culture change. Um, but he's incredibly optimistic,

1029
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: and like the last line in in my book, UM says,

1030
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: like he says, I have to be optimistic to make

1031
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: it through. You have to believe it's possible. You know

1032
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: you have and this and this has to do with activism.

1033
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: It has to do with language, It has to do

1034
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: with everything, Like you have to believe that if you

1035
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: put forth the effort to educate yourself and make sure

1036
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 1: that your actions and your language is reflecting that education,

1037
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: you have to believe that that will create a better world.

1038
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 1: And and languages a is an incredibly peaceable way to

1039
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: do that, and you don't even have to leave your house. Um.

1040
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: So you know, language change and ideological societal cultural change

1041
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: go hand in hand. You cannot force someone to use

1042
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: language a certain way and expect their ideology to follow.

1043
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: So you have to get people on board with the

1044
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: ideology first. But if you are already on board with equality,

1045
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: with gender equality, with you know, with certain sexual and

1046
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: gender identities that maybe weren't approved of fifty years ago,

1047
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: with racial quality, then goodness knows, our our speech and

1048
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 1: our language should reflect that. And you know what I'm

1049
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: trying to do is give people the tools to make

1050
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: that happen. Just some of the tools. Um. So that

1051
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: those are kind of generalized statements, but they can apply

1052
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 1: to to so many communities. I think, yes, Um, and

1053
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: thank you so much for for joining us and having

1054
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: this conversation, for writing the book. Um, there's so many

1055
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: things listeners if you want to know, like about the

1056
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 1: history of gender, which is much shorter than I thought

1057
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: it was the word gender, yet it is. Yeah, I

1058
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: was like, what the history of curse words? Um? Our

1059
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 1: thoughts about sex, which we didn't get to get into,

1060
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: but how words shape our our thoughts about sex and

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01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: our bodies. That's all in this running of the Gamut book,

1062
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 1: the defense of y'all, which I really appreciated since her

1063
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: in the South. As Georgians, we definitely really appreciated that.

1064
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: Oh hell yeah, I will always go to bat for

1065
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: you all. I have felt so judged for so long,

1066
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: but I feel it's being more accepted now. Yeah. Um,

1067
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: can you tell the listeners where they can find you,

1068
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: where they can get your book all those things? Yeah, yeah,

1069
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: you can find me on Instagram at Amanda Underscore Montell

1070
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: and there I postum some little short mini lessons about

1071
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: language and gender. Um quite a lot. So if you

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01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: want even more of the stuff in micro doses, you

1073
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: can find it there um And then you can find

1074
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: word Slut wherever books are sold. It's also available in

1075
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: e book and audiobook and I recorded it so nice, nice, Well,

1076
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: thank you again, thank you so much for joining us.

1077
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: Definitely go check Amanda out. Listeners, go read word Slut.

1078
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: It was a very fun, wonderful read um. And if

1079
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: you would like to find out as you can, you

1080
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 1: can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at i

1081
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: heeart media dot com. You can find us on Instagram

1082
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You, are on Twitter at

1083
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks. It's always to our superproducer Andrew Howard.

1084
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 1: Thanks and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never

1085
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: Told You. This protection of I Heart Radio more podcast

1086
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, but the I Heart Radio app,

1087
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.