1
00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:18,045
Speaker 1: School of Humans. Howard Mandel, a Northern Jewish boy fresh

2
00:00:18,045 --> 00:00:21,645
Speaker 1: out of law school, decided to move down to Montgomery,

3
00:00:21,685 --> 00:00:25,165
Speaker 1: Alabama in nineteen sixty nine. I wanted to be in

4
00:00:25,245 --> 00:00:27,765
Speaker 1: Montgomery because I wanted to be a civil rights lawyer,

5
00:00:27,805 --> 00:00:32,165
Speaker 1: and that was the heart of racism in the South.

6
00:00:32,765 --> 00:00:36,205
Speaker 1: Howard arrived in an Alabama still functioning in many ways

7
00:00:36,365 --> 00:00:39,725
Speaker 1: as a renegade state, defying the Civil Rights Act, which

8
00:00:39,765 --> 00:00:43,765
Speaker 1: had been passed five years prior. In most counties, there

9
00:00:43,885 --> 00:00:47,645
Speaker 1: still weren't any black people on voting roles. There were

10
00:00:47,685 --> 00:00:51,485
Speaker 1: no black people on juries voters. Oppression has a long

11
00:00:51,605 --> 00:00:55,725
Speaker 1: history in Alabama. When the state constitution was rewritten in

12
00:00:55,805 --> 00:01:01,005
Speaker 1: nineteen oh one, convention chair John Knox opened the proceedings

13
00:01:01,045 --> 00:01:04,765
Speaker 1: saying that their goal was to establish white supremacy in

14
00:01:04,885 --> 00:01:10,605
Speaker 1: this state. The state levied poll taxes, literacy tests, and

15
00:01:10,725 --> 00:01:17,645
Speaker 1: convoluted property requirements to vote. Then, like now, people convicted

16
00:01:17,645 --> 00:01:20,405
Speaker 1: of certain crimes were not permitted to cast a ballot.

17
00:01:21,325 --> 00:01:24,125
Speaker 1: And as for people willing and able to fight voter

18
00:01:24,245 --> 00:01:28,645
Speaker 1: suppression in a court of law, there weren't many. When

19
00:01:28,725 --> 00:01:32,125
Speaker 1: Howard got to Alabama, there were only about ten civil

20
00:01:32,205 --> 00:01:36,165
Speaker 1: rights lawyers in the entire state. The New England native

21
00:01:36,205 --> 00:01:39,565
Speaker 1: and Georgetown Law graduate arrived in a whole new world

22
00:01:40,245 --> 00:01:48,045
Speaker 1: the Deep South. Most aspects of Alabamian life remained segregated

23
00:01:48,045 --> 00:01:51,725
Speaker 1: down the track. Alabama's gone to Booga Boola, jack On

24
00:01:51,885 --> 00:01:54,805
Speaker 1: Alabama bog So. The mayor Montgomery at the time was

25
00:01:54,845 --> 00:02:00,125
Speaker 1: a gentleman. His name was Emery Fumi. Mayor carried a pistol.

26
00:02:01,525 --> 00:02:04,445
Speaker 1: He was just racist through and through it. He was

27
00:02:04,485 --> 00:02:08,805
Speaker 1: the usher at this Presbyterian church and one of his

28
00:02:08,925 --> 00:02:11,565
Speaker 1: main jobs is to make sure that no African Americans

29
00:02:11,605 --> 00:02:15,285
Speaker 1: tried to come to church. Howard moved to Montgomery for

30
00:02:15,365 --> 00:02:19,685
Speaker 1: his first job, clerking for Federal District Court Judge Frank Johnson.

31
00:02:20,725 --> 00:02:25,085
Speaker 1: I don't consider having quote stuck my neck out. I'll

32
00:02:25,165 --> 00:02:29,365
Speaker 1: value the decisions that I've made and the effect of

33
00:02:29,405 --> 00:02:35,445
Speaker 1: those decisions, and my oath as a United States judge

34
00:02:35,925 --> 00:02:39,725
Speaker 1: decide cases like the law requires that to be decided.

35
00:02:40,765 --> 00:02:44,845
Speaker 1: So technically you had no option if you're going to

36
00:02:45,845 --> 00:02:49,325
Speaker 1: be a good jazz. That was an interview with Judge

37
00:02:49,405 --> 00:02:52,645
Speaker 1: Johnson in nineteen ninety five after he was awarded the

38
00:02:52,685 --> 00:02:59,045
Speaker 1: Presidential Medal of Freedom. Strangely enough, infamously racist Governor George

39
00:02:59,045 --> 00:03:02,885
Speaker 1: Wallace and Judge Johnson had grown up together in small

40
00:03:02,925 --> 00:03:07,245
Speaker 1: town North Alabama and both up being influential leaders in

41
00:03:07,285 --> 00:03:11,365
Speaker 1: the state, but ideologically speaking, they were about as far

42
00:03:11,405 --> 00:03:13,845
Speaker 1: as they could get from one another. When I finally

43
00:03:13,885 --> 00:03:17,845
Speaker 1: met him, Judge Johnson, we went out to dinner at

44
00:03:17,885 --> 00:03:24,005
Speaker 1: a restaurant and we were waiting in line for I

45
00:03:24,005 --> 00:03:27,685
Speaker 1: don't know, fifteen minutes, and we finally got into the

46
00:03:27,725 --> 00:03:30,285
Speaker 1: main restaurant and I saw that there were only about

47
00:03:30,325 --> 00:03:33,365
Speaker 1: three people leading. So I said to Judge Johnson, I said,

48
00:03:34,125 --> 00:03:36,165
Speaker 1: why are all these empty tables? Why'd they have us

49
00:03:36,205 --> 00:03:39,405
Speaker 1: waiting fifteen minutes? He said, that's because nobody'll sit within

50
00:03:39,525 --> 00:03:45,565
Speaker 1: three tables of me, who was such a pariah. Judge

51
00:03:45,645 --> 00:03:48,525
Speaker 1: Johnson had been an instrumental part of many important civil

52
00:03:48,605 --> 00:03:52,365
Speaker 1: rights cases of his time. He had ruled against racis

53
00:03:52,405 --> 00:03:56,885
Speaker 1: Alabama lawmaker since the early nineteen fifties. He ordered Montgomery

54
00:03:56,925 --> 00:04:00,325
Speaker 1: to integrate swimming pools and buses. He ruled in favor

55
00:04:00,365 --> 00:04:03,405
Speaker 1: of the Freedom Writers, but it was when he first

56
00:04:03,485 --> 00:04:06,445
Speaker 1: ordered schools to desegregate that Johnson and truly became the

57
00:04:06,605 --> 00:04:10,725
Speaker 1: enemy of dedicated white supremacists. Johnson had to have two

58
00:04:10,805 --> 00:04:15,005
Speaker 1: full time bodyguards US Marshals sitting in front of his house.

59
00:04:15,125 --> 00:04:19,565
Speaker 1: Every single day. He and his family received death threats constantly.

60
00:04:20,205 --> 00:04:24,765
Speaker 1: His mother's house was firebombed, and yet despite all that,

61
00:04:25,405 --> 00:04:27,765
Speaker 1: Howard knew that this is where he wanted to be,

62
00:04:28,725 --> 00:04:31,485
Speaker 1: to become one of those handful of civil rights lawyers

63
00:04:32,005 --> 00:04:40,405
Speaker 1: painstakingly working towards desegregation. I'm Josie Duffie Rice, and this

64
00:04:40,605 --> 00:04:44,845
Speaker 1: is Unreformed The Story of the Alabama Industrial School for

65
00:04:44,965 --> 00:05:09,365
Speaker 1: Negro Children, Episode six, Scallywag and Carpetbaggers. It's the end

66
00:05:09,365 --> 00:05:13,165
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty eight in Montgomery, Alabama, and Marian or

67
00:05:13,205 --> 00:05:16,685
Speaker 1: four companions had just told Denny Abbott about the abuse

68
00:05:16,725 --> 00:05:20,605
Speaker 1: they endured at the Alabama Industrial School. Danny was the

69
00:05:20,685 --> 00:05:24,485
Speaker 1: chief juvenile probation officer in the county. He already knew

70
00:05:24,485 --> 00:05:28,845
Speaker 1: about some of it, the horrible conditions, some of the violence,

71
00:05:30,045 --> 00:05:32,805
Speaker 1: but he was rattled by their vivid descriptions of their

72
00:05:32,885 --> 00:05:38,045
Speaker 1: quote nightmarish routine of hard labor, beatings and sexual abuse.

73
00:05:39,405 --> 00:05:41,885
Speaker 1: It was this conversation with the girls that made Denny

74
00:05:41,965 --> 00:05:45,165
Speaker 1: realize he had to do whatever he could to help

75
00:05:45,205 --> 00:05:48,245
Speaker 1: the black kids at Mount Meg's and I said, you

76
00:05:48,285 --> 00:05:54,005
Speaker 1: know what, I can't be the kind of father, can't

77
00:05:54,005 --> 00:05:58,005
Speaker 1: be the kind of father to my own kids if

78
00:05:58,045 --> 00:06:02,005
Speaker 1: I walk away from those girls. But there was a

79
00:06:02,045 --> 00:06:06,645
Speaker 1: lot to figure out. Good intentions wouldn't be enough. There

80
00:06:06,725 --> 00:06:10,085
Speaker 1: was no inevitability of justice here, so there was a

81
00:06:10,125 --> 00:06:14,285
Speaker 1: real question about strategy. How could Denny change what was

82
00:06:14,325 --> 00:06:19,165
Speaker 1: happening at Mount Meg's and also who would help him.

83
00:06:19,205 --> 00:06:22,205
Speaker 1: The cruelty at Mount Meg's had flourished for many reasons,

84
00:06:23,245 --> 00:06:25,605
Speaker 1: but indifference to the suffering of black children was a

85
00:06:25,645 --> 00:06:28,765
Speaker 1: major part of it, and it would take something pretty

86
00:06:28,765 --> 00:06:32,645
Speaker 1: significant to shake up that indifference. Not another committee or

87
00:06:32,725 --> 00:06:38,005
Speaker 1: task force, not another list of recommendations, a real change.

88
00:06:38,885 --> 00:06:42,405
Speaker 1: Denny couldn't make such a seismic shift happen alone. He

89
00:06:42,525 --> 00:06:45,765
Speaker 1: badly needed an ally, someone willing to take on the

90
00:06:45,805 --> 00:06:50,325
Speaker 1: Alabama criminal legal system on behalf of black children. He

91
00:06:50,405 --> 00:06:53,445
Speaker 1: needed someone as horrified by Mount Meg's as he was,

92
00:06:54,165 --> 00:06:57,765
Speaker 1: but ideally an insider, a person well connected enough to

93
00:06:57,805 --> 00:07:02,085
Speaker 1: get stuff done despite all the blue bloods and red tape.

94
00:07:02,725 --> 00:07:08,685
Speaker 1: And that's when Denny remembered Ira dement de met d

95
00:07:09,045 --> 00:07:13,125
Speaker 1: capital m e n t. Ira is a lawyer we

96
00:07:13,125 --> 00:07:16,525
Speaker 1: mentioned last episode, the one who had filed a lawsuit

97
00:07:16,565 --> 00:07:19,285
Speaker 1: on behalf of that runaway teenage girl who had been

98
00:07:19,325 --> 00:07:22,725
Speaker 1: locked up in solitary confinement in the dark for days.

99
00:07:23,805 --> 00:07:28,845
Speaker 1: Ira was in private practice in Montgomery, so I knew

100
00:07:28,885 --> 00:07:31,325
Speaker 1: he cared about kids, and I knew that he was

101
00:07:31,525 --> 00:07:35,805
Speaker 1: very powerful and persuasive as a lawyer. Ira was thirty

102
00:07:35,805 --> 00:07:39,805
Speaker 1: four when he and Denny met. Like Denny's boss, Judge Thattford,

103
00:07:40,205 --> 00:07:45,085
Speaker 1: Ira came from an old white Alabama family, but Denny

104
00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:48,285
Speaker 1: knew that Ira was willing to fight for kids, including

105
00:07:48,325 --> 00:07:52,805
Speaker 1: black kids. Ira believed in the Constitution as this document

106
00:07:52,885 --> 00:07:56,125
Speaker 1: that protected everyone, and he was willing to represent just

107
00:07:56,285 --> 00:08:00,285
Speaker 1: about anyone. He didn't always have good judgment, and he

108
00:08:00,365 --> 00:08:03,565
Speaker 1: had made a few very suspect choices in his professional career,

109
00:08:04,645 --> 00:08:07,685
Speaker 1: namely a couple years before, when in nineteen sixty five,

110
00:08:07,805 --> 00:08:10,805
Speaker 1: Ira had represented the Ku Klex Klan in a federal

111
00:08:10,845 --> 00:08:13,405
Speaker 1: case where the clan had been accused of preventing schools

112
00:08:13,405 --> 00:08:17,445
Speaker 1: from integrating. He later implied he did it because they

113
00:08:17,485 --> 00:08:20,805
Speaker 1: were willing to pay him, and by the way, he

114
00:08:20,965 --> 00:08:24,685
Speaker 1: lost that case when Judge Frank Johnson rightfully ruled against

115
00:08:24,725 --> 00:08:28,765
Speaker 1: him either way. By nineteen sixty eight, Ira was ready

116
00:08:28,765 --> 00:08:31,365
Speaker 1: to fight on behalf of the black kids at Mount Meg's.

117
00:08:32,005 --> 00:08:35,285
Speaker 1: He framed the deprivations at the school as nothing short

118
00:08:35,285 --> 00:08:41,525
Speaker 1: of unconstitutional, claiming the absolute denial of basic and fundamental

119
00:08:41,645 --> 00:08:46,605
Speaker 1: human rights to Negro children who are incarcerated in a

120
00:08:46,725 --> 00:08:51,685
Speaker 1: concentration camp at Mountain Meigs, Alabama. So that's streets and

121
00:08:51,725 --> 00:08:55,085
Speaker 1: I want to see him. So Denny told Ira about

122
00:08:55,125 --> 00:08:57,125
Speaker 1: Mary and the other girls who had shown up to

123
00:08:57,205 --> 00:09:00,485
Speaker 1: his office. He told them about the abuse that the

124
00:09:00,565 --> 00:09:03,845
Speaker 1: children at Mount Meg's were facing. And it turned out

125
00:09:03,925 --> 00:09:08,645
Speaker 1: that Ira had his own suspicions about Mount Meg's. As

126
00:09:08,685 --> 00:09:11,685
Speaker 1: Denny wrote in his book entitled they Had No Voice

127
00:09:12,045 --> 00:09:14,925
Speaker 1: Between Us, we already had a fat catalog of evidence

128
00:09:15,205 --> 00:09:18,685
Speaker 1: and plenty of ideas about how to fatten it. More So,

129
00:09:18,725 --> 00:09:21,045
Speaker 1: Ira decided that he wanted to be a part of this.

130
00:09:21,805 --> 00:09:24,125
Speaker 1: He wanted to help Denny bring attention to what was

131
00:09:24,165 --> 00:09:28,405
Speaker 1: happening at Mount Meg's. As he put it, well, it's

132
00:09:28,485 --> 00:09:35,205
Speaker 1: the difference between fundamental right fundamental all it's fat basic Iran.

133
00:09:35,285 --> 00:09:38,285
Speaker 1: Denny then had to decide how they wanted to handle this.

134
00:09:39,085 --> 00:09:44,085
Speaker 1: So I recalled Governor Albert Brewer. Ira thought maybe there

135
00:09:44,165 --> 00:09:47,045
Speaker 1: was a chance that the governor just didn't know about

136
00:09:47,045 --> 00:09:50,125
Speaker 1: what was happening at Mount Meg's that if he knew,

137
00:09:50,645 --> 00:09:54,045
Speaker 1: he'd be outraged enough to handle it, but that was

138
00:09:54,085 --> 00:09:58,405
Speaker 1: not the case. He stated that there was a committee.

139
00:09:58,965 --> 00:10:01,605
Speaker 1: He had a point that he would be happy for

140
00:10:01,725 --> 00:10:05,165
Speaker 1: me to confer with him. Told him I had never

141
00:10:05,245 --> 00:10:10,565
Speaker 1: seen a committee accomplish. He wasn't wrong. We mentioned this

142
00:10:10,645 --> 00:10:14,485
Speaker 1: last episode, but there'd been committees convened before and nothing

143
00:10:14,485 --> 00:10:21,685
Speaker 1: had changed. Swa off the bat Ira concluded two things. First,

144
00:10:21,845 --> 00:10:24,925
Speaker 1: they would need to file a lawsuit. What was happening

145
00:10:24,965 --> 00:10:28,285
Speaker 1: at the Alabama Industrial School for Negro children was not

146
00:10:28,365 --> 00:10:33,565
Speaker 1: only wrong, but he believed it was unconstitutional. There was

147
00:10:33,605 --> 00:10:37,365
Speaker 1: a problem though. We couldn't go to state corps. That

148
00:10:37,485 --> 00:10:40,845
Speaker 1: would never have worked. The judges were all efficient hunting

149
00:10:41,445 --> 00:10:44,685
Speaker 1: each other. It was a good old boys club filled

150
00:10:44,725 --> 00:10:47,165
Speaker 1: with judges who had fought equality under the law at

151
00:10:47,205 --> 00:10:51,605
Speaker 1: every juncture. As Denny wrote, this was a case about

152
00:10:51,645 --> 00:10:55,045
Speaker 1: basic civil and human rights, and no state court in

153
00:10:55,085 --> 00:10:59,205
Speaker 1: Alabama had anything but the most dismal record on either front.

154
00:11:00,845 --> 00:11:04,405
Speaker 1: See Denny was in law enforcement. Ira was a lawyer.

155
00:11:05,085 --> 00:11:07,725
Speaker 1: They both knew that what the laws said didn't matter

156
00:11:07,765 --> 00:11:10,485
Speaker 1: as much as who was on the bench making the decisions,

157
00:11:11,645 --> 00:11:15,485
Speaker 1: Hence IRAS's second conclusion, they would have to go big.

158
00:11:16,005 --> 00:11:19,885
Speaker 1: They decided to file a federal class action lawsuit against

159
00:11:19,925 --> 00:11:26,245
Speaker 1: the school, the administrators, and the board of trustees. The

160
00:11:26,365 --> 00:11:30,085
Speaker 1: law is intentionally opaque, and the procedural elements of it,

161
00:11:30,605 --> 00:11:34,525
Speaker 1: what court you file and why are intricate and kind

162
00:11:34,565 --> 00:11:38,605
Speaker 1: of boring, But here it's pretty simple. This is the

163
00:11:38,685 --> 00:11:42,605
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties and the federal government was far more

164
00:11:42,645 --> 00:11:47,445
Speaker 1: progressive than the state of Alabama. In fact, during this era,

165
00:11:48,085 --> 00:11:50,605
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court was maybe the most progressive it had

166
00:11:50,605 --> 00:11:55,445
Speaker 1: ever been before or since. Filing a federal case meant

167
00:11:55,445 --> 00:11:57,965
Speaker 1: there was a slightly better chance they'd get a good

168
00:11:58,005 --> 00:12:03,125
Speaker 1: faith judge. But it was a big move a class

169
00:12:03,125 --> 00:12:07,605
Speaker 1: action like this, especially against mullable defendants. It signaled that

170
00:12:07,645 --> 00:12:10,925
Speaker 1: the wrongdoing wasn't a one off, that abuse of children

171
00:12:11,125 --> 00:12:15,085
Speaker 1: was endemic to the institution, and by suing the board,

172
00:12:15,245 --> 00:12:17,525
Speaker 1: the lawsuit made it clear that the fault was not

173
00:12:17,605 --> 00:12:21,605
Speaker 1: only with the act of perpetrators, but the passive enablers.

174
00:12:22,685 --> 00:12:28,205
Speaker 1: For decades. Trustees had just let cruelty flourish, which meant

175
00:12:28,245 --> 00:12:35,765
Speaker 1: they were responsible to This suit targeted the whole system.

176
00:12:35,805 --> 00:12:39,765
Speaker 1: On January twenty second, nineteen sixty nine, a county clerk

177
00:12:39,885 --> 00:12:45,005
Speaker 1: stamped the lawsuit, officially filing Charles Stockton at All versus

178
00:12:45,045 --> 00:12:49,045
Speaker 1: Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children in the United States

179
00:12:49,045 --> 00:12:53,285
Speaker 1: District Court for the Middle District of Alabama. The lawsuit

180
00:12:53,445 --> 00:12:58,285
Speaker 1: listed as plaintiffs five brave black boys, including Charles Stockton,

181
00:12:59,165 --> 00:13:03,045
Speaker 1: ranging from ages thirteen to fifteen, who were suing by

182
00:13:03,205 --> 00:13:07,445
Speaker 1: and through Denny. Don't know exactly how these five children

183
00:13:07,445 --> 00:13:10,285
Speaker 1: were chosen. We know that they were kids that had

184
00:13:10,325 --> 00:13:14,325
Speaker 1: been in Denny's custody as a probation officer, but beyond that,

185
00:13:14,645 --> 00:13:18,525
Speaker 1: we just don't know much about them. And honestly, given

186
00:13:18,565 --> 00:13:21,805
Speaker 1: the conditions of Mount Megs, they could have probably chosen

187
00:13:21,845 --> 00:13:25,045
Speaker 1: any of the students there, but in order to file

188
00:13:25,085 --> 00:13:28,525
Speaker 1: the lawsuit, they would need students willing to affix their

189
00:13:28,605 --> 00:13:32,245
Speaker 1: name to the filing, students who were willing to attest

190
00:13:32,325 --> 00:13:36,845
Speaker 1: that they had suffered these harms. The suit spent pages

191
00:13:36,925 --> 00:13:40,965
Speaker 1: laying out the deficiencies of Mount Megs, like the understaffing,

192
00:13:41,405 --> 00:13:45,965
Speaker 1: the lack of education, the child labor, the overcrowding, the

193
00:13:46,045 --> 00:13:50,565
Speaker 1: crumbling infrastructure, the extreme heat, the lack of privacy, the

194
00:13:50,645 --> 00:13:55,965
Speaker 1: absence of vocational training, and the lack of funding. It

195
00:13:56,085 --> 00:14:01,125
Speaker 1: also accused school administrators of physical abuse, in particular Superintendent

196
00:14:01,165 --> 00:14:06,245
Speaker 1: Ebe Holloway and Matron Fannie Matthews abuse kidding kids in

197
00:14:06,245 --> 00:14:09,845
Speaker 1: the skull with broom handles, were beating kids so badly

198
00:14:09,885 --> 00:14:13,565
Speaker 1: that it caused a miscarriage. Being a child out Mount

199
00:14:13,645 --> 00:14:18,045
Speaker 1: Megs meant quote, being imprisoned in a penal colony, which

200
00:14:18,085 --> 00:14:23,165
Speaker 1: is constitutionally, factually and totally unfit for the purpose for

201
00:14:23,245 --> 00:14:28,245
Speaker 1: which it is intended. So that was it. The nine

202
00:14:28,245 --> 00:14:31,565
Speaker 1: page lawsuit was filed out there for everyone in the

203
00:14:31,645 --> 00:14:36,365
Speaker 1: country to see, and Ira and Denny weren't only asking

204
00:14:36,405 --> 00:14:39,725
Speaker 1: the court to address the abuse and the horrible conditions,

205
00:14:40,485 --> 00:14:42,965
Speaker 1: they were also demanding that the state in a great

206
00:14:42,965 --> 00:14:49,405
Speaker 1: Mount Megs and other juvenile reformatories. The next day, the

207
00:14:49,485 --> 00:14:53,765
Speaker 1: lawsuit was all over the news. The Montgomery Advertiser and

208
00:14:53,805 --> 00:14:56,605
Speaker 1: the Psalma Times published stories about the abuse that the

209
00:14:56,685 --> 00:15:00,965
Speaker 1: kids had suffered, and with the publicity came the backlash

210
00:15:01,045 --> 00:15:05,925
Speaker 1: from the community from Denny's friends, family, and especial his

211
00:15:05,965 --> 00:15:20,245
Speaker 1: boss Judge Thatford. It wasn't like Denny had been quiet

212
00:15:20,245 --> 00:15:25,045
Speaker 1: even before filing this lawsuit. He'd expressed disappointment and discussed

213
00:15:25,365 --> 00:15:30,605
Speaker 1: both privately and publicly about countless elements of the juvenile system,

214
00:15:30,645 --> 00:15:36,405
Speaker 1: but filing a federal lawsuit that was next level. Denny

215
00:15:36,405 --> 00:15:39,165
Speaker 1: and his neighbors in Montgomery, they had their differences, sure,

216
00:15:40,325 --> 00:15:43,445
Speaker 1: but he had a lot of friends and people admired him.

217
00:15:43,485 --> 00:15:45,725
Speaker 1: He liked to officiate high school games and go to

218
00:15:45,805 --> 00:15:49,725
Speaker 1: church on Sundays. He played football in the local police league.

219
00:15:49,845 --> 00:15:52,725
Speaker 1: Old copies of his resume show a list of affiliations

220
00:15:52,765 --> 00:15:56,085
Speaker 1: a mile long, and even now he's kept placards and

221
00:15:56,165 --> 00:15:59,125
Speaker 1: schedules from a ton of conferences he attended in groups

222
00:15:59,125 --> 00:16:02,445
Speaker 1: he was a part of. He'd been vice president of

223
00:16:02,485 --> 00:16:06,645
Speaker 1: the Montgomery Social Service Club, president of his It's PTA.

224
00:16:06,725 --> 00:16:09,925
Speaker 1: He taught part time at the local university. This was

225
00:16:10,005 --> 00:16:14,525
Speaker 1: his home, his community. Plus, Denny was in law enforcement.

226
00:16:15,085 --> 00:16:16,725
Speaker 1: He was a member of the Police Union and the

227
00:16:16,765 --> 00:16:20,645
Speaker 1: Alabama Council and Crime and Delinquency. The local paper mentioned

228
00:16:20,725 --> 00:16:25,005
Speaker 1: him often. He was powerful, he was respected, and he

229
00:16:25,045 --> 00:16:29,005
Speaker 1: wasn't even thirty years old. Yet after we file the suits,

230
00:16:29,285 --> 00:16:31,885
Speaker 1: people that I had known my whole life, that I

231
00:16:31,925 --> 00:16:36,325
Speaker 1: had grown up with, some stopped talking to me. Neighbors

232
00:16:36,365 --> 00:16:40,885
Speaker 1: stopped interacting with me, store owners turned their backs on me.

233
00:16:41,725 --> 00:16:45,525
Speaker 1: My kids were called names going to school unless you

234
00:16:45,565 --> 00:16:48,685
Speaker 1: were there. It's surely kind of hardly explained what that

235
00:16:48,845 --> 00:16:51,965
Speaker 1: was like. You can imagine that this must have been

236
00:16:52,005 --> 00:16:56,285
Speaker 1: a lonely time. Denny was a whistleblower, but no one

237
00:16:56,365 --> 00:17:00,085
Speaker 1: was exactly impressed by his bravery, the ripple effects to

238
00:17:00,605 --> 00:17:04,005
Speaker 1: what it did to his wife, his kids, and then

239
00:17:04,045 --> 00:17:07,485
Speaker 1: of course there was his job. Over the past few years,

240
00:17:07,525 --> 00:17:11,245
Speaker 1: Judge Thattford had at least publicly supported Denny's push for

241
00:17:11,285 --> 00:17:15,205
Speaker 1: a new juvenile detention center. So when Judge Thetford found

242
00:17:15,205 --> 00:17:18,205
Speaker 1: out that his subordinate went over his own head after

243
00:17:18,285 --> 00:17:21,245
Speaker 1: he stuck his neck out for him, he was furious.

244
00:17:22,445 --> 00:17:25,685
Speaker 1: The day after the lawsuit was filed, Judge Thattford sent

245
00:17:25,765 --> 00:17:29,405
Speaker 1: Denny a letter, and in it he claimed that Denny

246
00:17:29,485 --> 00:17:32,045
Speaker 1: never told him how bad things were at Mount Meg's,

247
00:17:33,365 --> 00:17:36,645
Speaker 1: but he wasn't embarrassed or regretful, And for someone who

248
00:17:36,725 --> 00:17:40,085
Speaker 1: supposedly just found out about the abuse that these kids suffered,

249
00:17:40,525 --> 00:17:44,525
Speaker 1: he didn't mention them once. Instead, he made it clear

250
00:17:44,925 --> 00:17:48,885
Speaker 1: that whatever connection the two of them had was gone.

251
00:17:49,405 --> 00:17:52,885
Speaker 1: In that letter, Betford said, as you know, over the

252
00:17:52,965 --> 00:17:55,485
Speaker 1: years since I have been judge of this court, I've

253
00:17:55,565 --> 00:17:59,845
Speaker 1: depended upon your integrity, trust and ability. Filing a suit

254
00:17:59,925 --> 00:18:03,125
Speaker 1: in federal court without my knowledge is a distinct betrayal

255
00:18:03,125 --> 00:18:05,565
Speaker 1: of that trust and of the court for whom you work.

256
00:18:06,525 --> 00:18:10,805
Speaker 1: He calmed into his office, I think the next day

257
00:18:10,925 --> 00:18:14,125
Speaker 1: of when he found out about it, and he was

258
00:18:14,205 --> 00:18:19,685
Speaker 1: irate that I had done that, and he said, you know,

259
00:18:19,725 --> 00:18:23,685
Speaker 1: you've betrayed my trust. And I said, well, I might

260
00:18:23,725 --> 00:18:26,405
Speaker 1: have betrayed your trust. I don't think I've betrayed the

261
00:18:26,445 --> 00:18:28,805
Speaker 1: trust of the kids I'm supposed to be trying to help.

262
00:18:29,565 --> 00:18:32,685
Speaker 1: But he suspended me for my job for fifteen days,

263
00:18:33,725 --> 00:18:39,045
Speaker 1: a fifteen days suspension without pay for in subordination. It

264
00:18:39,165 --> 00:18:43,125
Speaker 1: was eventually reduced to ten. Now you may be wondering

265
00:18:43,165 --> 00:18:46,805
Speaker 1: why Thoughtford didn't just fire Denny, and the answer is

266
00:18:46,805 --> 00:18:50,405
Speaker 1: that legally he couldn't. Denny did not serve at the

267
00:18:50,405 --> 00:18:53,965
Speaker 1: pleasure of any judge, and so Thutford didn't have the power,

268
00:18:54,765 --> 00:18:58,365
Speaker 1: but he was trying to get it. Later, when the

269
00:18:58,405 --> 00:19:02,765
Speaker 1: county granted their annual merit raises, Denny was the only

270
00:19:02,805 --> 00:19:07,245
Speaker 1: person not to get one. Look, it could have been worse.

271
00:19:07,765 --> 00:19:11,045
Speaker 1: We know what happened to people, particularly black people, who

272
00:19:11,085 --> 00:19:14,885
Speaker 1: were willing to fight for equality under the law. Denny's

273
00:19:14,925 --> 00:19:19,525
Speaker 1: house wasn't bombed, he wasn't shot or killed, and in fact,

274
00:19:19,605 --> 00:19:22,645
Speaker 1: the five juveniles who were listed in the lawsuit were

275
00:19:22,685 --> 00:19:27,925
Speaker 1: probably at much greater risk than he was. But still,

276
00:19:28,165 --> 00:19:31,445
Speaker 1: things in Denny's personal and professional lives weren't exactly great.

277
00:19:32,645 --> 00:19:35,725
Speaker 1: But the case, on the other hand, the case was

278
00:19:35,805 --> 00:19:39,405
Speaker 1: going about as well as it possibly could, thanks to

279
00:19:39,485 --> 00:19:42,765
Speaker 1: two strokes of luck. The first was that the case

280
00:19:42,885 --> 00:19:46,085
Speaker 1: ended up in the docket of none other than Judge

281
00:19:46,085 --> 00:19:50,525
Speaker 1: Frank Johnson. There was no Alabama courtroom more willing to

282
00:19:50,565 --> 00:19:54,925
Speaker 1: consider the plight of black children than his, and as

283
00:19:54,925 --> 00:20:00,405
Speaker 1: we mentioned before, Judge Johnson knew something about being a pariah. Still,

284
00:20:00,445 --> 00:20:02,765
Speaker 1: there was a long way to go between just filing

285
00:20:02,805 --> 00:20:07,565
Speaker 1: the case and actually winning it. Then, thankfully, the second

286
00:20:07,645 --> 00:20:13,005
Speaker 1: lucky thing happened. Our later became the US Attorney for

287
00:20:13,205 --> 00:20:16,925
Speaker 1: the Middle District of Alabama. This meant that Ira Dement

288
00:20:17,165 --> 00:20:19,765
Speaker 1: became the head of the Federal prosecutor's office in the

289
00:20:19,805 --> 00:20:24,765
Speaker 1: heart of Alabama. It's hard to explain just how important

290
00:20:24,805 --> 00:20:28,085
Speaker 1: this was. Ira goes from just being one of the

291
00:20:28,125 --> 00:20:31,685
Speaker 1: only progressive lawyers in Alabama to being one of the

292
00:20:31,725 --> 00:20:35,565
Speaker 1: most powerful law enforcement officials in the state. He went

293
00:20:35,605 --> 00:20:39,045
Speaker 1: from being one guy fighting the state of Alabama to

294
00:20:39,125 --> 00:20:42,285
Speaker 1: being a prosecutor with the weight of the entire federal

295
00:20:42,325 --> 00:20:47,125
Speaker 1: government behind him fighting the state of Alabama. Plus simply

296
00:20:47,165 --> 00:20:49,365
Speaker 1: getting a job like this put Ira in his work

297
00:20:49,485 --> 00:20:53,165
Speaker 1: in the national spotlight, and that became its own accelerant.

298
00:20:53,885 --> 00:20:56,045
Speaker 1: It greatly increased the chance that the kids at Mount

299
00:20:56,085 --> 00:20:59,605
Speaker 1: Meg's would get some genuine attention. The facts of the

300
00:20:59,645 --> 00:21:03,965
Speaker 1: case hadn't changed at all, but the calculus shifted significantly,

301
00:21:05,525 --> 00:21:08,285
Speaker 1: and his new job made way for another remarkable shift

302
00:21:08,285 --> 00:21:12,605
Speaker 1: in the case. Suddenly, federal authorities set their sights on

303
00:21:12,605 --> 00:21:16,485
Speaker 1: this lawsuit against Mount Megs. So after I became United

304
00:21:16,485 --> 00:21:19,405
Speaker 1: States Attorney, I interflated the United States and requested that

305
00:21:19,445 --> 00:21:22,365
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Division in the FBI would come involved.

306
00:21:24,525 --> 00:21:26,965
Speaker 1: When the FBI came down to the school to observe,

307
00:21:27,645 --> 00:21:30,245
Speaker 1: they saw evidence of the cruelty that Denny and Ira

308
00:21:30,365 --> 00:21:34,405
Speaker 1: had reported. Here's what one instructor of Mount Meg's told

309
00:21:34,445 --> 00:21:39,245
Speaker 1: the FBI during an interview. I have observed numerous beatings

310
00:21:39,245 --> 00:21:43,405
Speaker 1: to inmates with both fan belts and broomsticks on almost

311
00:21:43,485 --> 00:21:47,605
Speaker 1: a daily occasion. Inmates would receive these beatings for such

312
00:21:47,645 --> 00:21:50,405
Speaker 1: things as being late to dinner, being noisy in the

313
00:21:50,405 --> 00:21:58,685
Speaker 1: mess hall, attempts to escape. Meanwhile, Holloway is not happy

314
00:21:58,765 --> 00:22:02,485
Speaker 1: about these FBI agents sniffing around looking into how he

315
00:22:02,685 --> 00:22:06,765
Speaker 1: runs the school. In May of nineteen sixty nine, he

316
00:22:06,805 --> 00:22:10,685
Speaker 1: wrote an indignant letter to the governor complaining. In it,

317
00:22:10,845 --> 00:22:14,005
Speaker 1: he said, one of the agents told me that I

318
00:22:14,045 --> 00:22:16,245
Speaker 1: was not to question the students about what they had

319
00:22:16,285 --> 00:22:19,565
Speaker 1: talked about, or punish or intimidate the students in any

320
00:22:19,605 --> 00:22:23,845
Speaker 1: way because they had talked to the FBI. He lamented

321
00:22:23,885 --> 00:22:27,125
Speaker 1: that after the FBI left, he had more pushback from

322
00:22:27,165 --> 00:22:32,805
Speaker 1: the students. In August of nineteen sixty nine, a seventeen

323
00:22:32,885 --> 00:22:36,165
Speaker 1: year old girl at Mount Meg's named Diane allegedly went

324
00:22:36,205 --> 00:22:39,125
Speaker 1: to Fanny's room and told her, I came up here

325
00:22:39,165 --> 00:22:42,485
Speaker 1: to kill you. I'm tired of messing with you. And

326
00:22:42,605 --> 00:22:46,365
Speaker 1: in the courtroom, Diane's story was completely different from Fanny's.

327
00:22:47,405 --> 00:22:50,885
Speaker 1: Court officials determined that Diane had definitely been beaten before.

328
00:22:51,925 --> 00:22:54,085
Speaker 1: She had bruises on the backs of her legs and

329
00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:59,525
Speaker 1: around her shoulders and other scars from previous injury. Fanny

330
00:22:59,605 --> 00:23:01,845
Speaker 1: said all of those might have happened in the tussle,

331
00:23:02,725 --> 00:23:06,005
Speaker 1: but child services officials determined that the injury were too

332
00:23:06,005 --> 00:23:10,525
Speaker 1: old for that. Despite clear evidence that Diane had been abused,

333
00:23:10,845 --> 00:23:15,845
Speaker 1: the court punished her instead of Fanny. The juvenile court judge,

334
00:23:16,285 --> 00:23:20,045
Speaker 1: none other than William Thetford, ordered Diane to be tried

335
00:23:20,085 --> 00:23:23,365
Speaker 1: as an adult. She got sentenced to six months an

336
00:23:23,365 --> 00:23:26,765
Speaker 1: adult jail for battery, knocked down from a charge of

337
00:23:26,805 --> 00:23:34,085
Speaker 1: attempted murder. Meanwhile, Superintendent Holloway was starting to get a

338
00:23:34,125 --> 00:23:37,645
Speaker 1: little nervous. He wrote a letter that really stuck with

339
00:23:37,685 --> 00:23:41,765
Speaker 1: me to one state official in November of nineteen sixty nine.

340
00:23:42,285 --> 00:23:44,285
Speaker 1: It seems as if everyone is out to get me,

341
00:23:44,405 --> 00:23:47,365
Speaker 1: and as using every means possible to do so, he wrote,

342
00:23:48,205 --> 00:23:51,565
Speaker 1: After twenty three years of hard, honest work here, I

343
00:23:51,565 --> 00:23:54,445
Speaker 1: would like to remain until I have reached age sixty five,

344
00:23:55,565 --> 00:23:57,965
Speaker 1: but due to the pressure and strain of this year's work,

345
00:23:58,445 --> 00:24:02,965
Speaker 1: I find it impossible to go on much longer. He said,

346
00:24:03,125 --> 00:24:06,365
Speaker 1: I am confident that I have done my best. A

347
00:24:06,445 --> 00:24:10,885
Speaker 1: month later, a number of people, including Superintendent Holloway, Fanny Matthews,

348
00:24:10,885 --> 00:24:14,885
Speaker 1: and Tom Glover, were subpoena, but after searching all the

349
00:24:14,925 --> 00:24:18,525
Speaker 1: material we had and visiting several archives, we were only

350
00:24:18,605 --> 00:24:23,685
Speaker 1: able to find Holloway's deposition. It was December nineteen sixty nine,

351
00:24:24,205 --> 00:24:28,485
Speaker 1: almost a year after the lawsuit had been filed. Holloway

352
00:24:28,565 --> 00:24:30,645
Speaker 1: was careful about what he would share on the record,

353
00:24:31,365 --> 00:24:33,525
Speaker 1: but even the little he said made it clear that

354
00:24:33,565 --> 00:24:36,605
Speaker 1: the kids were being worked half to death. He said

355
00:24:36,645 --> 00:24:40,205
Speaker 1: he had them working fifteen hundred acres milking thirty five

356
00:24:40,285 --> 00:24:44,485
Speaker 1: cows a day. And then the lawyer doing the deposition,

357
00:24:45,045 --> 00:24:48,605
Speaker 1: a lawyer for the Department of Justice, He started questioning

358
00:24:48,605 --> 00:24:53,445
Speaker 1: Holloway about the abuse. The lawyer asked if mister Glover

359
00:24:53,565 --> 00:24:57,805
Speaker 1: had a paddle, and Holloway said, I'm sure he has one.

360
00:24:58,605 --> 00:25:01,725
Speaker 1: He told the lawyer that six months prior, he'd started

361
00:25:01,725 --> 00:25:06,565
Speaker 1: a discipline committee to cut down on corporal punishment. He

362
00:25:06,645 --> 00:25:10,245
Speaker 1: said it was only then that they stopped just letting

363
00:25:10,285 --> 00:25:15,005
Speaker 1: anybody just punish a boy for just any little thing. Now,

364
00:25:15,045 --> 00:25:18,005
Speaker 1: he said, boys will be brought in for fighting. We

365
00:25:18,085 --> 00:25:22,405
Speaker 1: give them five licks, that's all. The lawyers never brought

366
00:25:22,485 --> 00:25:25,965
Speaker 1: up fan belts. Nobody asked Holloway why he and his

367
00:25:26,045 --> 00:25:29,325
Speaker 1: co workers beat kids until they poured blood or passed out.

368
00:25:30,565 --> 00:25:34,845
Speaker 1: There were no questions about the sexual abuse, and nobody

369
00:25:34,925 --> 00:25:41,005
Speaker 1: mentioned the rock pile. The case was national news now,

370
00:25:41,485 --> 00:25:45,125
Speaker 1: which was bad news for the state of Alabama. According

371
00:25:45,125 --> 00:25:47,885
Speaker 1: to Denny, state officials were doing all that they could

372
00:25:47,925 --> 00:25:50,925
Speaker 1: to avoid this case going to trial, which would surely

373
00:25:50,925 --> 00:25:56,125
Speaker 1: be both embarrassing and expensive. As the case carried on,

374
00:25:56,365 --> 00:26:01,485
Speaker 1: Superintendent EB Holloway fulfilled his promise. He retired in May

375
00:26:01,485 --> 00:26:05,925
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy for quote unquote health reasons, and he

376
00:26:06,045 --> 00:26:09,885
Speaker 1: wasn't the first one to leave. Within days of her deposition,

377
00:26:10,165 --> 00:26:16,205
Speaker 1: Matron Fanny Matthews resigned in left Mount Megs. After Superintendent

378
00:26:16,245 --> 00:26:19,885
Speaker 1: Holloway left Mount Megs, the State of Alabama asked J. B.

379
00:26:20,165 --> 00:26:23,565
Speaker 1: Hill to come on board. J B was the former

380
00:26:23,605 --> 00:26:27,565
Speaker 1: superintendent of the other industrial school, the one for white boys.

381
00:26:28,365 --> 00:26:31,285
Speaker 1: He believed the situation at Mount Meg's was so dire

382
00:26:31,725 --> 00:26:34,205
Speaker 1: that he came out of his retirement to take the job.

383
00:26:35,365 --> 00:26:39,805
Speaker 1: He was the first white superintendent at Mount Meg's. Right

384
00:26:39,845 --> 00:26:42,405
Speaker 1: off the bat, Superintendent Hill asked to look over the

385
00:26:42,445 --> 00:26:45,965
Speaker 1: school's financial records, and he learned that there weren't any

386
00:26:47,165 --> 00:26:53,525
Speaker 1: no budgets, no ledger book, nothing. He looked everywhere, and

387
00:26:53,605 --> 00:26:56,845
Speaker 1: all he found was thirty five thousand dollars and unpaid bills,

388
00:26:57,245 --> 00:27:00,445
Speaker 1: but no cash to pay them. He had to write

389
00:27:00,445 --> 00:27:04,685
Speaker 1: the governor and ask for money to pay off the debts. J. B.

390
00:27:04,885 --> 00:27:08,405
Speaker 1: Hill opped all the abuse and stopped the farming program

391
00:27:08,445 --> 00:27:12,485
Speaker 1: and the higher staff that will compliment and could deliver

392
00:27:12,605 --> 00:27:16,645
Speaker 1: programs because the federal court had said these are things

393
00:27:16,685 --> 00:27:21,045
Speaker 1: you're going to do. There were more changes too. The

394
00:27:21,125 --> 00:27:25,565
Speaker 1: most dilapidated living quarters were torn down, all the girls

395
00:27:25,605 --> 00:27:30,925
Speaker 1: were transferred to other schools, and most importantly, new guidelines

396
00:27:30,925 --> 00:27:36,485
Speaker 1: for corporal punishment were introduced. For a year, Judge Johnson

397
00:27:36,565 --> 00:27:40,245
Speaker 1: monitored Mount Megs, holding the possibility of a trial over

398
00:27:40,285 --> 00:27:43,165
Speaker 1: the heads of the board, the administrators, and the state

399
00:27:43,405 --> 00:27:46,845
Speaker 1: if they didn't address the problems at the school, But

400
00:27:47,085 --> 00:27:50,965
Speaker 1: by nineteen seventy one he'd seen enough improvement to issue

401
00:27:51,005 --> 00:27:55,965
Speaker 1: a final ruling that July, more than two years after

402
00:27:56,085 --> 00:27:59,565
Speaker 1: Denny filed suit, Judge Johnson ruled for the children of

403
00:27:59,605 --> 00:28:04,925
Speaker 1: Mount Megs. His final judgment stated explicitly that the school

404
00:28:04,965 --> 00:28:09,445
Speaker 1: had to stop overcrowding, employ a social worker, and provide

405
00:28:09,485 --> 00:28:13,405
Speaker 1: real medical care. He also said that the farming program

406
00:28:13,445 --> 00:28:16,365
Speaker 1: had to be limited and that most forms of corporal

407
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:21,845
Speaker 1: punishment were no longer permitted at Mount Meg's. And seventeen

408
00:28:21,925 --> 00:28:25,765
Speaker 1: years after Brown v. Board, he ordered the desegregation of

409
00:28:25,805 --> 00:28:30,285
Speaker 1: the Alabama Industrial School for Negro children. Now it was

410
00:28:30,405 --> 00:28:36,325
Speaker 1: just the Alabama Industrial School. We had integrated training schools

411
00:28:37,285 --> 00:28:40,485
Speaker 1: that made things better for everybody. I got a lot

412
00:28:40,525 --> 00:28:43,125
Speaker 1: of letters of support from people who started look at

413
00:28:43,125 --> 00:28:46,365
Speaker 1: things a little differently. And yet you can see how

414
00:28:46,445 --> 00:28:49,165
Speaker 1: even this ruling left the door open for some of

415
00:28:49,165 --> 00:28:52,125
Speaker 1: the same harm that had always existed at Mount Meg's.

416
00:28:53,085 --> 00:28:56,045
Speaker 1: The worst parts of Mount Megs were given permission to continue,

417
00:28:56,485 --> 00:29:00,445
Speaker 1: just in a limited capacity. Boys could still be forced

418
00:29:00,445 --> 00:29:03,645
Speaker 1: to farm as long as it was consistent with the

419
00:29:03,685 --> 00:29:08,885
Speaker 1: school's vocational and training prom Corporal punishment was still allowed,

420
00:29:09,645 --> 00:29:14,365
Speaker 1: but the order stated only with a prescribed paddle. The

421
00:29:14,485 --> 00:29:18,565
Speaker 1: order was limited and the law was too. Once the

422
00:29:18,645 --> 00:29:22,565
Speaker 1: federal case ended, so did the constant oversight, and that

423
00:29:22,565 --> 00:29:25,205
Speaker 1: meant there was still room for kids to fall through

424
00:29:25,245 --> 00:29:38,165
Speaker 1: the cracks despite its limitations. Judge Johnson's ruling was a

425
00:29:38,205 --> 00:29:42,525
Speaker 1: watershed moment for Mount Meg's, but even after the ruling,

426
00:29:42,725 --> 00:29:45,565
Speaker 1: Denny was still hearing new stories of children who had

427
00:29:45,605 --> 00:29:50,045
Speaker 1: been mistreated and abused at Mount Meg's. And then in

428
00:29:50,165 --> 00:29:54,045
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, Denny stumbled across the name of a

429
00:29:54,125 --> 00:29:59,725
Speaker 1: boy named Emmett Player. Five years before, back in nineteen

430
00:29:59,765 --> 00:30:02,965
Speaker 1: sixty seven, Emmett Player had been a ten year old

431
00:30:03,045 --> 00:30:06,525
Speaker 1: kid who didn't seem to have anywhere to go. His

432
00:30:06,685 --> 00:30:10,845
Speaker 1: mom had recently died, his dad was in prison. So

433
00:30:10,925 --> 00:30:15,085
Speaker 1: without a sentencing, without a social worker, without any judicial

434
00:30:15,125 --> 00:30:18,725
Speaker 1: oversight whatsoever, they put ten year old Emmett in a

435
00:30:18,725 --> 00:30:22,165
Speaker 1: car and they drove him to Mount Meg's. Law does

436
00:30:22,245 --> 00:30:25,285
Speaker 1: not permit that. The law said kids had to be

437
00:30:25,325 --> 00:30:28,085
Speaker 1: at least twelve, but many who were sent to Mount

438
00:30:28,125 --> 00:30:32,005
Speaker 1: Megs were Emmett's age or younger. Even Lonnie went there

439
00:30:32,045 --> 00:30:36,085
Speaker 1: when he was just eleven. Plus, Emmett had been placed

440
00:30:36,125 --> 00:30:39,045
Speaker 1: at Mount Megs without being charged or seeing a judge.

441
00:30:39,445 --> 00:30:43,805
Speaker 1: Emmett had done nothing except be a black dependent child,

442
00:30:44,365 --> 00:30:47,925
Speaker 1: and he stayed there five years. So Denny decided to

443
00:30:47,925 --> 00:30:51,285
Speaker 1: try to help Emmett. But he realized that Mount Meg's

444
00:30:51,365 --> 00:30:54,685
Speaker 1: wasn't the only culprit here. I quickly learned that the

445
00:30:54,725 --> 00:30:59,885
Speaker 1: homes for dependent children were run primarily by church groups.

446
00:31:00,205 --> 00:31:03,365
Speaker 1: I applied to each and every one of them for Emmett,

447
00:31:04,125 --> 00:31:06,845
Speaker 1: and each and every one of them him refuses because

448
00:31:06,845 --> 00:31:09,885
Speaker 1: of his black Denny and Irish suit may have integrated

449
00:31:09,885 --> 00:31:14,165
Speaker 1: all the juvenile detention facilities in Alabama, but Judge Johnson's

450
00:31:14,245 --> 00:31:17,045
Speaker 1: ruling in that case didn't say anything about the integration

451
00:31:17,085 --> 00:31:22,245
Speaker 1: of church homes. So that's why I ran into Howard Mandel.

452
00:31:22,925 --> 00:31:26,285
Speaker 1: That's Howard Mandel, the young lawyer from the beginning of

453
00:31:26,325 --> 00:31:30,805
Speaker 1: this episode. By nineteen seventy two, he'd finished his clerkship

454
00:31:30,845 --> 00:31:33,885
Speaker 1: with Judge Johnson and was one of those handful of

455
00:31:33,885 --> 00:31:38,285
Speaker 1: civil rights lawyers in Alabama. So there's a term used

456
00:31:38,325 --> 00:31:42,325
Speaker 1: after the Civil War, still used by Southern whites. You

457
00:31:42,365 --> 00:31:46,685
Speaker 1: were either a scalawag or carpet bagger. I was a carpetbagger,

458
00:31:47,485 --> 00:31:49,685
Speaker 1: you know. I was this liberal Jewish kid coming down

459
00:31:49,725 --> 00:31:52,485
Speaker 1: from the North and here I am in Montgomery, Alabama,

460
00:31:52,525 --> 00:31:55,045
Speaker 1: doing my thing, and I'm going to file civil rights cases.

461
00:31:55,325 --> 00:31:57,845
Speaker 1: Denny was worse in the eyes because he's a scalawag.

462
00:31:58,325 --> 00:32:02,165
Speaker 1: He is a local boy, a local boy who was

463
00:32:02,245 --> 00:32:06,085
Speaker 1: defying the old guard, the scalo wag and the harpetbagger,

464
00:32:06,845 --> 00:32:09,485
Speaker 1: and they had a plan. So I saw this as

465
00:32:09,565 --> 00:32:12,205
Speaker 1: more than just Emmett player. This was a class action

466
00:32:12,245 --> 00:32:15,565
Speaker 1: that we would be filed. I said, you know, here,

467
00:32:15,605 --> 00:32:18,085
Speaker 1: we go down this road again, but we have to

468
00:32:18,125 --> 00:32:23,685
Speaker 1: do it. So we filed a second federal court class

469
00:32:23,725 --> 00:32:27,285
Speaker 1: action lawsuit in nineteen seventy two, and we suited all

470
00:32:27,285 --> 00:32:31,005
Speaker 1: the Methodists, and all the Baptists, and all the Presbyterians,

471
00:32:31,685 --> 00:32:36,045
Speaker 1: and all the sheriffs at the State of Alabama all

472
00:32:36,125 --> 00:32:39,885
Speaker 1: be half of and I think Kid's life. During the

473
00:32:40,005 --> 00:32:43,685
Speaker 1: first suit almost four years prior, Denny was mostly focused

474
00:32:43,685 --> 00:32:47,805
Speaker 1: on just one institution, Mount Megs. But this time he's

475
00:32:47,845 --> 00:32:51,525
Speaker 1: going after churches. There's no question it's going to make

476
00:32:51,565 --> 00:32:56,565
Speaker 1: a lot of people upset. On Friday, November seventeenth, nineteen

477
00:32:56,605 --> 00:33:01,925
Speaker 1: seventy two, Denny and Howard filed their suit, and on

478
00:33:01,965 --> 00:33:05,485
Speaker 1: Monday that word summoned Denny to come to his office.

479
00:33:07,685 --> 00:33:11,485
Speaker 1: Denny entered while Thetford was dictating a letter to his secretary,

480
00:33:12,645 --> 00:33:16,765
Speaker 1: Dear mister Abbott, that bird saught out loud, ignoring Denny,

481
00:33:17,085 --> 00:33:21,165
Speaker 1: but clearly intending him to hear. Within the past month,

482
00:33:21,525 --> 00:33:23,925
Speaker 1: I instructed you that there were to be no suits

483
00:33:23,925 --> 00:33:27,405
Speaker 1: filed by any personnel of the Montgomery County youth facilities

484
00:33:27,525 --> 00:33:33,285
Speaker 1: without my prior knowledge and approval. This discharge is effective immediately, yours,

485
00:33:33,405 --> 00:33:38,845
Speaker 1: very truly William f Thetford and the next morning I

486
00:33:38,885 --> 00:33:41,485
Speaker 1: get up and get the Montgomery Advertised, which is a

487
00:33:41,565 --> 00:33:47,285
Speaker 1: local paper, headlines front page. Denny appot fire not something

488
00:33:47,285 --> 00:33:49,565
Speaker 1: you want to start your day with. He could not

489
00:33:49,725 --> 00:33:53,245
Speaker 1: tolerate Denny's and ursuing the State of Alabama and all

490
00:33:53,245 --> 00:33:56,325
Speaker 1: these children's homes. He was not going to buckcause he

491
00:33:56,445 --> 00:33:59,765
Speaker 1: had to face his friends at the country club. Now,

492
00:33:59,805 --> 00:34:03,645
Speaker 1: technically Betford still didn't have the power to fire Denny,

493
00:34:03,765 --> 00:34:07,845
Speaker 1: so once he did, Denny sued him. So Jenny was

494
00:34:07,965 --> 00:34:12,445
Speaker 1: entangled in two lawsuits at the same time. As for

495
00:34:12,485 --> 00:34:16,645
Speaker 1: the suit against both church and state. The good news

496
00:34:16,805 --> 00:34:19,725
Speaker 1: was Judge Johnson got randomly assigned to this new case

497
00:34:19,845 --> 00:34:23,685
Speaker 1: as well, but that didn't make it easy. Pretty quickly

498
00:34:23,725 --> 00:34:27,125
Speaker 1: the case devolved into a standoff. I did have a

499
00:34:27,205 --> 00:34:29,925
Speaker 1: conversation with the head of the one of the heads

500
00:34:29,965 --> 00:34:33,165
Speaker 1: of the welfare department, and she said to me, Howard,

501
00:34:33,645 --> 00:34:36,085
Speaker 1: you know they're not going to settle the head people.

502
00:34:36,525 --> 00:34:41,245
Speaker 1: They got their marching orders, and that marching orders is segregation.

503
00:34:41,325 --> 00:34:47,365
Speaker 1: Now in segregation forever about a year after the case

504
00:34:47,445 --> 00:34:50,165
Speaker 1: was filed, Howard was reading through the minutes of one

505
00:34:50,285 --> 00:34:55,285
Speaker 1: Methodist church's board meeting in Bradley, Alabama. They'd had a

506
00:34:55,365 --> 00:34:59,805
Speaker 1: board meeting and the topic was should we settle this

507
00:34:59,845 --> 00:35:01,685
Speaker 1: case or not? What would God want us to do?

508
00:35:01,805 --> 00:35:05,165
Speaker 1: Kind of thing. So they decided to take a vote.

509
00:35:05,925 --> 00:35:08,925
Speaker 1: Method is Children's Home in Selma. So the vote was

510
00:35:08,965 --> 00:35:12,045
Speaker 1: should we continue to segregate or should we agree to integrate?

511
00:35:13,965 --> 00:35:18,045
Speaker 1: And the vote was thirteen to thirteen. The vote was tied.

512
00:35:19,125 --> 00:35:22,125
Speaker 1: That means the chairperson of the board had to vote

513
00:35:22,365 --> 00:35:25,365
Speaker 1: as a tiebreaker, and he said, I'm not ready to

514
00:35:25,445 --> 00:35:28,245
Speaker 1: vote yet, and they said, what do you mean. He says,

515
00:35:28,485 --> 00:35:31,565
Speaker 1: I need to pray about this. He stepped outside and

516
00:35:31,605 --> 00:35:35,565
Speaker 1: went to the chapel alone. He came back fifteen minutes later.

517
00:35:37,445 --> 00:35:43,525
Speaker 1: Everyone's waiting and he says, I prayed about this, and

518
00:35:43,725 --> 00:35:50,885
Speaker 1: what I feel is that I'm voting to integrade. I

519
00:35:50,925 --> 00:35:53,165
Speaker 1: think that's the lesson you learned is that people aren't bad,

520
00:35:53,285 --> 00:35:56,925
Speaker 1: necessarily bad. They grow up in a certain culture and

521
00:35:57,005 --> 00:35:59,845
Speaker 1: that's all they know and they but then he was

522
00:35:59,885 --> 00:36:02,565
Speaker 1: called upon just like Denny was. I think that's the

523
00:36:02,565 --> 00:36:04,605
Speaker 1: thing is when you're called upon, how are you going

524
00:36:04,645 --> 00:36:08,085
Speaker 1: to respond? Everyone doesn't have to be a civil rights

525
00:36:08,165 --> 00:36:10,645
Speaker 1: lawyer kind of you live your life, and Denny led

526
00:36:10,685 --> 00:36:13,445
Speaker 1: his life and he had his family. But when he

527
00:36:13,525 --> 00:36:15,845
Speaker 1: was called upon, he stepped forward. That's I think as

528
00:36:15,845 --> 00:36:18,885
Speaker 1: a real lesson. I was always impressed by that he

529
00:36:18,965 --> 00:36:23,925
Speaker 1: did something he didn't have to do. Howard maybe right

530
00:36:24,125 --> 00:36:27,205
Speaker 1: that a few people did the right thing. But what

531
00:36:27,325 --> 00:36:29,565
Speaker 1: sticks with me when I hear this story is how

532
00:36:29,645 --> 00:36:33,325
Speaker 1: much luck was involved from start to finish, not just

533
00:36:33,365 --> 00:36:36,645
Speaker 1: with this case, but with the first case too. A

534
00:36:36,845 --> 00:36:40,205
Speaker 1: judge like Judge Johnson had to exist in Alabama and

535
00:36:40,245 --> 00:36:44,125
Speaker 1: had to have both cases randomly assigned to him. Ira

536
00:36:44,365 --> 00:36:47,605
Speaker 1: and Howard had to be willing to help. The federal

537
00:36:47,685 --> 00:36:51,485
Speaker 1: government had to get involved, Denny had to take a chance,

538
00:36:52,445 --> 00:36:56,685
Speaker 1: and the chairperson had to vote yes. Howard sees this

539
00:36:56,805 --> 00:36:59,485
Speaker 1: as a story about humans willing to do the right thing,

540
00:37:00,365 --> 00:37:02,645
Speaker 1: but I mostly see it as a story of luck

541
00:37:06,045 --> 00:37:09,365
Speaker 1: and the end result. Like the first suit, this case

542
00:37:09,405 --> 00:37:12,365
Speaker 1: doesn't go to trial, but it was a long haul.

543
00:37:12,965 --> 00:37:16,685
Speaker 1: Howard pushing bit by bit, following up every loose end,

544
00:37:17,325 --> 00:37:22,445
Speaker 1: meeting every piece of resistance. Eventually, Johnson ruled that the

545
00:37:22,445 --> 00:37:26,125
Speaker 1: state of Alabama had to provide black children access to

546
00:37:26,205 --> 00:37:30,565
Speaker 1: the same state run care as white ones. We were

547
00:37:30,605 --> 00:37:35,325
Speaker 1: thrilled because again, not only had we reformed the juvenile

548
00:37:35,365 --> 00:37:40,365
Speaker 1: justice system, in my opinion, now we had reformed the

549
00:37:40,445 --> 00:37:44,645
Speaker 1: child welfare system for dependent children as well. I mean

550
00:37:45,205 --> 00:37:48,285
Speaker 1: they were being abused too. We felt like we had

551
00:37:48,325 --> 00:37:53,445
Speaker 1: made major accomplishments in Alabama to get justice for black kids.

552
00:37:54,805 --> 00:37:57,525
Speaker 1: Denny was right that it was a step forward, but

553
00:37:57,605 --> 00:38:01,085
Speaker 1: the ruling applied only to state run homes, not private ones,

554
00:38:01,645 --> 00:38:05,045
Speaker 1: and that meant that church homes were exempt from Johnson's ruling.

555
00:38:06,325 --> 00:38:11,285
Speaker 1: Eventually they did desegregate, but not right away. I think

556
00:38:11,285 --> 00:38:15,245
Speaker 1: they were embarrassed. But these are children, that's what always,

557
00:38:15,525 --> 00:38:17,765
Speaker 1: you know. And to take a ten year old like

558
00:38:17,845 --> 00:38:21,125
Speaker 1: Emmett Player and say to him, you have to go

559
00:38:21,165 --> 00:38:23,725
Speaker 1: to Mountain Meggs, even though you've never done anything wrong.

560
00:38:24,725 --> 00:38:28,325
Speaker 1: With all the problems Mountain Eggs had. The Welfare department

561
00:38:28,365 --> 00:38:31,845
Speaker 1: found Emmett's father in prison, and when they talked with him,

562
00:38:31,885 --> 00:38:33,925
Speaker 1: they found out that Emma had an aunt in a

563
00:38:33,965 --> 00:38:37,765
Speaker 1: little community called Silicaga and she was willing to take

564
00:38:37,845 --> 00:38:41,845
Speaker 1: him in. And Howard, well, he had plenty of other

565
00:38:41,885 --> 00:38:44,805
Speaker 1: cases to get to it's like trying to cut a

566
00:38:44,925 --> 00:38:51,405
Speaker 1: field of kudzu with a hand sickle that's fifty acres square.

567
00:38:51,805 --> 00:38:55,725
Speaker 1: The problems was so overwhelming that I think you do

568
00:38:55,805 --> 00:39:00,285
Speaker 1: what you do not because you hope to make significant change,

569
00:39:00,725 --> 00:39:03,645
Speaker 1: but because that's just who you are, and that's what

570
00:39:03,765 --> 00:39:07,685
Speaker 1: your expectations off of how you live your life. And

571
00:39:07,725 --> 00:39:11,765
Speaker 1: then there was Denny. He lost that wrongful termination lawsuit

572
00:39:11,765 --> 00:39:15,045
Speaker 1: against Thattford, and he couldn't find a job anywhere in

573
00:39:15,085 --> 00:39:18,485
Speaker 1: the state of Alabama. So he started applying to jobs

574
00:39:18,485 --> 00:39:22,205
Speaker 1: across the country. He even scored a recommendation from Senator

575
00:39:22,245 --> 00:39:25,765
Speaker 1: Ted Kennedy. But nobody wanted to hire a guy who

576
00:39:25,845 --> 00:39:29,965
Speaker 1: was such a squeaky wheel, a robble rouser, a guy

577
00:39:30,005 --> 00:39:34,005
Speaker 1: who had sued his own job twice. They said, here's

578
00:39:34,005 --> 00:39:37,805
Speaker 1: a crazy person. He sued his own state in federal

579
00:39:37,845 --> 00:39:40,405
Speaker 1: court twice. We don't want him here in Virginia or

580
00:39:40,525 --> 00:39:45,485
Speaker 1: Texas or wherever I was. So I went for almost

581
00:39:45,525 --> 00:39:50,285
Speaker 1: a year without meaningful employment. I had a friend who

582
00:39:50,365 --> 00:39:53,885
Speaker 1: had a bumper recrowmbing shop, and he let me come

583
00:39:53,925 --> 00:39:59,005
Speaker 1: into his store, deliver some bumpers from him, put up

584
00:39:59,645 --> 00:40:03,765
Speaker 1: stock in his shelves, clean his bathrooms, sweep the hallways,

585
00:40:03,885 --> 00:40:08,405
Speaker 1: which I did, and most importantly, after the lawsuits were settled,

586
00:40:09,325 --> 00:40:11,485
Speaker 1: what happened to the thousands of kids who had been

587
00:40:11,485 --> 00:40:15,285
Speaker 1: sent to Mount Meg's. I'm looka what happened half towards

588
00:40:15,405 --> 00:40:20,285
Speaker 1: I don't you know? There's suchompdis in male marriage. There's

589
00:40:20,325 --> 00:40:27,045
Speaker 1: nothing compared to to after Man the Maumee. On our

590
00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:29,365
Speaker 1: next episode, we look at some of the children who

591
00:40:29,365 --> 00:40:32,885
Speaker 1: were sent to Mount Meg's and later as adults, cycled

592
00:40:32,885 --> 00:40:36,445
Speaker 1: in and out of prison. Some were even sentenced to

593
00:40:36,485 --> 00:40:43,605
Speaker 1: life in prison or worse, sentenced to death Unreformed. The

594
00:40:43,685 --> 00:40:46,725
Speaker 1: Story of the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children is

595
00:40:46,725 --> 00:40:49,965
Speaker 1: a production of School of Humans and iHeartMedia. This episode

596
00:40:49,965 --> 00:40:53,165
Speaker 1: was written by Me, Josie Duffie, Rice and Taylor von Leslie.

597
00:40:53,205 --> 00:40:55,925
Speaker 1: Our script supervisors Florence Burrow Adams, and our producer is

598
00:40:55,925 --> 00:40:58,965
Speaker 1: Gabbi Watts, who had additional writing and production support from

599
00:40:58,965 --> 00:41:02,925
Speaker 1: Sherry Scott. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie Crowley, Brandon

600
00:41:02,965 --> 00:41:06,845
Speaker 1: barrmt Arnett, and Me. Sound design and is by Jesse Niswanger.

601
00:41:07,245 --> 00:41:10,245
Speaker 1: Music is by Ben Soli. Additional recordings are courtesy of

602
00:41:10,285 --> 00:41:13,045
Speaker 1: the Alabama Center for traditional culture. This song featured in

603
00:41:13,045 --> 00:41:15,765
Speaker 1: this episode is Alabama Boogie by Johnny Lee, adapting with

604
00:41:15,845 --> 00:41:19,245
Speaker 1: drums and percussion by Jordan Ellis. William Thattford was voiced

605
00:41:19,245 --> 00:41:22,045
Speaker 1: by Van Gutter. Special thanks to the Alabama Department of

606
00:41:22,125 --> 00:41:25,565
Speaker 1: Archives in history, Michael Harriet, Cloyd Hall, Kevin Nutt, Van Newkirk,

607
00:41:25,605 --> 00:41:27,765
Speaker 1: and all of the survivors of Mount Meg's willing to

608
00:41:27,805 --> 00:41:31,685
Speaker 1: share their stories. Additional thanks to Danny Abbott and Douglas

609
00:41:31,685 --> 00:41:34,325
Speaker 1: Collegian for the use of their book They Had No Voice,

610
00:41:34,405 --> 00:41:38,565
Speaker 1: My Fight for Alabama's Forgotten Children. If you enjoyed this episode,

611
00:41:38,645 --> 00:41:40,925
Speaker 1: please leave us a rating and review wherever you get

612
00:41:40,965 --> 00:41:44,245
Speaker 1: your podcasts. If you are someone you know attended Mount

613
00:41:44,245 --> 00:41:46,285
Speaker 1: Megs and would like to be in contact, please email

614
00:41:46,325 --> 00:41:50,125
Speaker 1: Mountmegs Podcast at gmail dot com. That's Mt m e

615
00:41:50,365 --> 00:42:02,885
Speaker 1: Igs Podcast at gmail dot com. School of Humans