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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Deal. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Jason Kelly alongside my partner Alex Rodriguez. All right, man,

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Speaker 2: welcome back. You're fifty, you had a big birthday, you

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Speaker 2: had a nice vacation. How are you feeling? I feel old.

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Speaker 3: Oh come on, there's something about the five oh that

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Speaker 3: kind of like the five hand of versus four handle.

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Speaker 2: But I'll get over it. Now. You're looking great. Seems

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Speaker 2: like you had a great time, surrounded by your family,

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Speaker 2: beautiful vistas, well celebrated, I mean well celebrated by all accounts.

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Speaker 2: It was really very special to see. So congratulations, thank you,

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Speaker 2: you're back. So one thing that happened while you were gone. Stanford,

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Speaker 2: where you do some teaching and you're obviously very familiar

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Speaker 2: with the institution, named a new athletic director, former CEO

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Speaker 2: of Nike, John Donaho. I could have knocked you over

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Speaker 2: with a feather on that one.

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Speaker 3: That's a really big news because it tells you that

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Speaker 3: it's a blue stamp on the narrative how big college

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Speaker 3: sports has gotten, and more even more importantly, how complex

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Speaker 3: it is. I mean, this is a big job which

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Speaker 3: I think can change the whole idea of how these

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Speaker 3: universities look at. Okay, how high can we think? There's

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Speaker 3: no one that's too big or too high. Someone's run

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Speaker 3: a humongous you know, fortune five hundred company, and now

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Speaker 3: he's coming to Stanford. I think you'll see other moves

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Speaker 3: that will follow Stamford.

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Speaker 2: I have to think you're right. I mean, I would

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Speaker 2: imagine that every college president saw that news immediately started

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Speaker 2: in their mind going through who's our most prominent alum

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Speaker 2: who we can tap and sort of appeal to his

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Speaker 2: or her, be true to your school, all their nostalgia,

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Speaker 2: and really tap them in. You're seeing just big business

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Speaker 2: people come in and say, we know sports. We've got

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who know a lot about sports,

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Speaker 2: but we really need to up our business games. So

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Speaker 2: interesting to see what happens and how John donnadhoe does there. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: you got back for your birthday. I was back in

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Speaker 2: New York and we found ourselves because we were texting

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Speaker 2: over the weekend. You were watching the Yankees play in Miami.

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Speaker 2: I was watching the Triple A Yankees the Scranton Wilkesbury

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Speaker 2: rail Riders play, And so, first of all, some you know,

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Speaker 2: nice family time for each of us watching baseball games.

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Speaker 2: But I got to tell you, I was blown away

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Speaker 2: by this Scranton team, a really good team and a

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Speaker 2: tribute to the Yankees organization. And I asked you and

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Speaker 2: you told me it was true. You did rehab there

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Speaker 2: at some point.

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Speaker 3: Right, I did, And I believe Jason. If I'm not,

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Speaker 3: you may want to fact check me here, but I

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Speaker 3: think they bought that franchise from the Phillies and then

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Speaker 3: they poured a bunch of money into it. Yes, and

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Speaker 3: it looks beautiful. I'm sure you had an incredible time.

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Speaker 3: Is a great baseball market, tons of Yankee fans down there.

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Speaker 3: And I got to tell you one thing about the Yankees,

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Speaker 3: and this goes back to George Steinbruner. They do everything

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Speaker 3: first class and Scranton is no exception.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really cool experience. And so it

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Speaker 2: just feels great. And you saw the Yankees play down

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Speaker 2: in your hometown.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, talking about you know, feeling great. It was such

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Speaker 3: a nice experience this weekend. On Sunday, I went to

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Speaker 3: watch the one o'clock game Yankees against the Marlins. Marlins

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Speaker 3: swept us, which was painful to watch.

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Speaker 2: But woo.

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Speaker 3: My daughters were like, this is such a cool experience. Dad,

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Speaker 3: We've done this our whole life. Come watch you play.

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Speaker 3: And now we're going in like no special parking, no security,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, we sat there for about seven eight innings,

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Speaker 3: watched the game and had a great time.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will tell you, and I texted you a

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Speaker 2: picture of this. As we're walking in to PNC Park

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Speaker 2: where the rail Riders played, there was a kid in

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Speaker 2: front of me couldn't have been more than nine or

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Speaker 2: ten years old, a Rod number thirteen wearing a T shirt.

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Speaker 2: So I got a love it. You're still big in Scranton.

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Speaker 3: Dude, I love it big somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. All right, So coming up on the show, we

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Speaker 2: have Deamorris Smith. He's the former executive director of the

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Speaker 2: NFL Players Association. And also, while you were gone, a

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Speaker 2: lot of controversy happening with the NFLPA. The successor to

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Speaker 2: d Guy named Lloyd Howell, actually resigned under some amount

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Speaker 2: of pressure, some controversy over a job that he continued

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Speaker 2: to have at the Carlisle Group, which is an investor

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Speaker 2: or potential investor in the NFL. They did name this

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Speaker 2: week in interim executive director, a guy named David White,

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Speaker 2: who by all accounts was the runner up when Lloyd

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Speaker 2: Hall got the job a few years ago. I think

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Speaker 2: all we really need to say about this is it

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Speaker 2: is a reminder how critical the pas are. And you

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Speaker 2: know that from multiple angles.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I come from the history of

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Speaker 3: Major League Baseball and Marvin Miller, who started the players

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Speaker 3: Union that forever has been known as the strongest union

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Speaker 3: in sports. Then he handed a baton to Don Fear,

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Speaker 3: then Michael Wiener. Unfortunately Michael Wiener passed from cancer, and

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Speaker 3: then the baton has been passed to Tony Clark, my

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Speaker 3: former teammate. But these jobs are so vital, Jason. And

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Speaker 3: if you think about the NFL, the most powerful league

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Speaker 3: in the world with the largest amount of revenue, is

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Speaker 3: you have an opt out with the media contract coming

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Speaker 3: up so per soon. Is the person that deals with

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Speaker 3: you know, Roger Goodell and the thirty two owners, the

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Speaker 3: thirty two partners, and someone that can be a great

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Speaker 3: leader for all the players. So this is a humongous

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Speaker 3: opportunity and a very important job for not only the players,

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Speaker 3: but I would say the state of the NFL.

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Speaker 2: Totally and you're seeing it now as an owner in

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Speaker 2: the NBA and the WNBA, how critical they have to

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Speaker 2: be as partners. As you're building the value of the franchisees,

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Speaker 2: as you're building your fan base, as you're, as you say,

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Speaker 2: like negotiating media contracts. I mean, you're seeing how important

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Speaker 2: they are from a different perspective. I will say, so

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Speaker 2: as all this was going on with Lloyd Howell, and

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Speaker 2: this is as people will hear in a few minutes

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Speaker 2: when d comes onto the show, this is classic D.

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Speaker 2: So I text him and basically say, you know, obviously

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Speaker 2: this has happened since we taped with you. Anything you

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Speaker 2: want to say, And he said, because we're talking about

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Speaker 2: his book Turf Wars on the show. He says, if

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Speaker 2: you want the real story of what's going on to

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Speaker 2: the NFLPA, the history and its future, get Turf Wars.

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Speaker 2: So he's always selling it. And I will say, there

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Speaker 2: are some incredible stories in this book you're going to

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Speaker 2: hear in just a few minutes, some incredible stories that

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Speaker 2: he has. One of the things that I really took

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Speaker 2: away from this conversation and really echoes something you just

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Speaker 2: said a minute ago, is these jobs are important and

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Speaker 2: they're really really hard. I mean that came through loud

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Speaker 2: and clear in this conversation with day Yeah, and he

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Speaker 2: talked about it.

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Speaker 3: I mean he said that it probably took some years

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Speaker 3: away from his life, some of the most stressful times.

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Speaker 3: I mean he said sometimes he couldn't sleep without his

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Speaker 3: phone going off, especially through labor negotiations. Jas I got

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Speaker 3: a little pitch for you. My pitch for you is,

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Speaker 3: I thought about a decade ago or so, you had

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Speaker 3: this incredible book that really kind of dissected and unpacked

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Speaker 3: the private equity world, and I loved it.

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Speaker 2: I loved your book The New Tycoons available wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your books go.

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Speaker 3: It's so good, shameless plug. But I think there's an

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Speaker 3: opportunity for you to do the same for ownership around.

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Speaker 2: Sports, because when you think about the.

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Speaker 3: Jerry Joneses, the Jerry reinsdorf Is, going back to George

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Speaker 3: Steinbrunner's there's such a change between the old Titans to

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Speaker 3: a lot of these new, younger owners that could be

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Speaker 3: really interesting, and there's such a large appetite for it.

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Speaker 3: I think fan base can't get enough of this kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff.

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Speaker 2: All right, So I love the idea, so I'll pitch

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Speaker 2: you back. Do you think the new owners of the

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Speaker 2: Minnesota Timberwolves and the Minnesota Leaks would be willing to

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Speaker 2: cooperate on such a book and give me key interviews?

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Speaker 2: Of course? Of course? Great, yeah, all right, good, all right.

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Speaker 2: Coming up on the show, Jamorris Smith, the former executive

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Speaker 2: director of the NFLPA and the author of the new

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Speaker 2: book Turf for Us, Welcome back to the Deal. We

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Speaker 2: are so excited to have with us. You can hear

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Speaker 2: him laughing at the background already. Toamorris Smith. He's the

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Speaker 2: former executive director of the National Football League Players Association,

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Speaker 2: also the author of a new book, Turf Wars, The

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Speaker 2: Fight for the Soul of America's Game. We're so happy

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Speaker 2: to have you here with us. Welcome to the deal man.

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Speaker 1: It is a pleasure to be with you guys. Good

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Speaker 1: to see you, Jason. Always great to see Alex.

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Speaker 2: We have so much to talk about. We want to

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Speaker 2: talk about football, we want to talk about the book.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with the book. You tell it like it is,

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Speaker 2: and I would imagine that was the approach you took

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Speaker 2: to the book too. What inspired you to do this

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Speaker 2: and how'd you go about it?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, it's great to be here. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for saying what I think most people hate that I

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Speaker 1: just tell it like it is. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: only knew one way to do the job, and that

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Speaker 1: was just simply take it on for what it is.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's no mystery that there's management and labor.

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Speaker 1: There's no mystery that the thirty one owners of the

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Speaker 1: National Football League are just you know, warm, fuzzy, huggy

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Speaker 1: people who get along with everybody. That's a joke. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, I wanted to write a book that

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Speaker 1: was not only a real story of the fifteen years

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Speaker 1: or nearly fifteen years I had the job, but also

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Speaker 1: this story of even though you have those kind of

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Speaker 1: battles on both sides of the aisle, there is room

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Speaker 1: for business. There is room for compromise. But sometimes those compromises,

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Speaker 1: as somebody like Alex knows, your first year in the

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Speaker 1: league was the strike, right, and so you end up

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Speaker 1: resolving or coming to some sort of compromise on these

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Speaker 1: business deals. But I think every now and then people

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Speaker 1: forget that sometimes there's a preceding war, and it's full

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Speaker 1: of personalities, it's full of intricate business decisions, but also

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Speaker 1: this idea that a group of people on one side

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Speaker 1: can have a good war with the people on the

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Speaker 1: other side and sometimes good things come out of it.

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Speaker 3: So, Dia, I'm so interested about your career. You've been

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Speaker 3: an incredibly successful lawyer. In your career, you work for

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Speaker 3: one of some of the top law firms in the country.

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Speaker 3: You work for the US government, representing all of us

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Speaker 3: as Americans.

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Speaker 2: But I'm interested.

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Speaker 3: How does someone end up getting that job, which is

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Speaker 3: the ultimate missionary job.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, it might be a missionary job. It

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Speaker 1: might be an l sid job where you just ride

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Speaker 1: out one way and then you and you never make

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Speaker 1: it back. But yeah, you know, interesting story. I was

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Speaker 1: headed back to government. I mean really, the only job

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Speaker 1: I really wanted after I moved into private practice was

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Speaker 1: to go back to the US Attorney's office and be

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Speaker 1: the US Attorney for the District of Columbia. And I

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Speaker 1: was lucky enough to sort of get tapped on. That

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Speaker 1: was the way that the road was going to take me.

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Speaker 1: I was working on the transition team for then Senator Obama,

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Speaker 1: President elect Obama, working for the Justice Department and Alex

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Speaker 1: dead story. I got a call one night on my

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Speaker 1: phone from a search firm that said, would you be

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Speaker 1: interested in being a candidate for the executive director job?

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Speaker 1: And I ignored the call for almost three weeks because

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Speaker 1: I thought I've already got a plan. And then literally

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Speaker 1: they finally caught me one day in the office and

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Speaker 1: I talked to the person and he said, look, you

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Speaker 1: know you've identified you as a POTENTI candidate. The players

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Speaker 1: are going to go through this lockout. They're looking for

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Speaker 1: sort of a guy who can combine wartime theory with

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Speaker 1: business strategy with sort of legal plays. And I said,

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Speaker 1: this has got to be the dumbest idea I've ever

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Speaker 1: heard of in my life. Well, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you grew up in this world and you know it

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Speaker 1: in many ways better than I. You know, I was

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Speaker 1: never an agent. I never represented a team, never worked

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Speaker 1: for a team. I wasn't really a labor lawyer. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't a sports lawyer. To much of my law school

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Speaker 1: professor's chagrin, I didn't even take sports law in law school.

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Speaker 1: But it just didn't seem like a fit until I

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Speaker 1: sat down with the players. And once I sat down

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Speaker 1: with that executive committee, and by the way, a group of.

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Speaker 2: Killers you know, yeah, who was on that that year.

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Speaker 1: The president was Kevin Malay, you know, a great president,

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Speaker 1: but also had the distinction of I think he climbed

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Speaker 1: to the top three dirtiest players in the National Football League.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's true. Ryan Dawkins, Drew Brees, Tony Richardson,

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Speaker 1: Jeff Saturday, Mike Rabel, Kevin Carter, you know, all of

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Speaker 1: those guys were And I think Alex you get this.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes in a locker room you just have old souls,

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Speaker 1: and those guys were just old, mature souls who were

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Speaker 1: good or for bad. Woke up one day and Gene

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Speaker 1: Upshaw had gone into the hospital on a Wednesday, and

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Speaker 1: Jean died on a Sunday. And I think that moment

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Speaker 1: sort of led them to take on sort of an

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Speaker 1: air of more responsibility and maturity than perhaps they would

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Speaker 1: have otherwise done.

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Speaker 2: And so d you talked about how that was not

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Speaker 2: your background. I wonder, and you obviously know the edswer

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Speaker 2: to this in the association's mind, was that a feature,

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Speaker 2: not a bug, that you didn't have the background where

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Speaker 2: you might have some of the biases of an agent

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Speaker 2: or from working for a team or working for the League, like,

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Speaker 2: was the fact that you would and successful essentially in

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Speaker 2: something that was very relevant but not direct experience. Did

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Speaker 2: that actually make you a better candidate and better at

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Speaker 2: the job?

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent? You know, I remember my first second

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Speaker 1: meeting with the Executive Committee, believe it or not, was

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Speaker 1: on the day of Obama's inauguration, and I nearly didn't

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Speaker 1: take the trip, honestly because I you know, that was

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Speaker 1: one of those places where you just had to be.

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Speaker 1: But I thought better of it, or just in pure honesty,

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Speaker 1: my wife thought better of it and made me go.

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Speaker 1: But in that meeting, I was just blunt with them

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Speaker 1: about game strategy, and it didn't appear to me that

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Speaker 1: they had a sufficient congressional strategy. They really didn't have

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Speaker 1: a sufficient public relations strategy. They had two hundred million

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Speaker 1: dollars in the bank, the league had four billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in order to lock the players out. And so, you know, initially, Jason,

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Speaker 1: it was really the same type of work I had

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Speaker 1: done for clients like Ford and Halliburton and Shell and

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Speaker 1: other people over the years. How do you come up

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Speaker 1: with a comprehensive game strategy for the situation that you're facing? Right,

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Speaker 1: And sometimes that's asymmetrical, right.

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Speaker 2: Say more about that. What do you mean? Sometimes it's asymmetrical.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's asymmetrical, you know, in the sense that you

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Speaker 1: know a lot of business deals are linear, in the

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Speaker 1: sense that you know, I did the first business deal

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Speaker 1: for fanatics, the first supports deal. Michael Rubens on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the table. He has a vision for

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Speaker 1: growing the sports apparel in fanatics. I'm on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the table. If you want to do a

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Speaker 1: deal that has the names of the players on the back,

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Speaker 1: you have to pass. You know, in some respects, that's

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Speaker 1: a linear deal. You know, the upside for me, what's

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Speaker 1: the upside for him? There's a joint win when and

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Speaker 1: you figure out just the details of the of the

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Speaker 1: win win. An asymmetrical deal is one where like the lockout,

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Speaker 1: you know, the owners want the players to give back

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Speaker 1: their pensions. They want the players to give back twenty

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Speaker 1: percent of their salary, and they want the players to

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Speaker 1: play it. You know, two extra games, eighteen games free,

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Speaker 1: and they have a war chest of four billion. You

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Speaker 1: have a war chest of two hundred million. If you

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Speaker 1: play a linear deal, you're going to lose. So instead,

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Speaker 1: it was well, look I mean, the league had had

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Speaker 1: not done a great job looking after players with respect

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Speaker 1: to concussions. So the first strategy that my boss, Tom

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Speaker 1: Boggs kind of came up with was we should take

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Speaker 1: the league up on Capitol Hill and have a hearing

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Speaker 1: about concussions, and if we can figure out a legal

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Speaker 1: strategy to nullify their four billion dollars, you know, that

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Speaker 1: helps us win. So we did. We convinced a judge

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Speaker 1: that the league's use of the TV money ultimately harmed

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Speaker 1: the players. And then the last thing, you know, which

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Speaker 1: I know you guys know, we purchased a secret insurance

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Speaker 1: policy and so that you know, the game strategy for

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Speaker 1: us was that the owners think the players will capitulate

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Speaker 1: after week whatever, four, five, or six. They've certainly told

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Speaker 1: the bankers who hold the notes in their stadiums that

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Speaker 1: football will come back by week seven at the latest.

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Speaker 1: What the secret insurance policy gave us, and we played

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Speaker 1: it at the last minute, was this thing is going

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Speaker 1: to go on for an entire year. So by an

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Speaker 1: asymmetrical strategy, you've now turned the negotiation into a linear

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Speaker 1: strategy of if you don't get a deal done, this

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Speaker 1: thing's going to last a whole year and there's just

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Speaker 1: as much pain on you as there is on me.

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Speaker 1: And so sometimes, you know, deal strategy, you have to

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Speaker 1: be sort of ruthlessly asymmetrical.

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Speaker 3: So speaking about that, you mentioned the Fanatics. We have

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Speaker 3: a mutual friend in Michael Rubin, who's one of the

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Speaker 3: great deal makers of his generation, right, aggressive, visionary around

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Speaker 3: corners everything you name it, you name it, he is

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Speaker 3: and then some and.

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Speaker 1: We love him.

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Speaker 4: But man, he is, he is, and he is relentless,

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Speaker 4: and he's a great So you've done deals like whoop

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Speaker 4: ea sports trading card deals, but I want to own

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Speaker 4: in Fanatics deal because in many ways you're synonymous with

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Speaker 4: being ahead of the curve and a risk taker.

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Speaker 2: Get a calculated risk taker.

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Speaker 3: Walk us through a conversation how you were the first

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Speaker 3: not only to get a deal done, but to say

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Speaker 3: I'm in. But instead of cash you took equity. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: walk us through that a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget it. Michael and I met for the

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Speaker 1: first time at the Palm Restaurant in Washington, DC. You know,

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Speaker 1: my side had briefed me on this idea of his,

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Speaker 1: but you know, in a nutshell, you know we had

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Speaker 1: already had a deal with Nike, and that was a

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Speaker 1: linear relationship that was good but not great for us

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Speaker 1: just to be dead hon Us. Nike would always do

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Speaker 1: a deal with the league first to do the front

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Speaker 1: of the jerseys, and then they would come and do

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Speaker 1: a deal, you know, with us for the players' names

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Speaker 1: on the back of the jersey second. And the problem

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Speaker 1: with that structure is in the winter Loser department, the

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Speaker 1: person who does the first deal always makes out better

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Speaker 1: than the person who does the second. Right. So I

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Speaker 1: met with Michael after both sides it briefed with this

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Speaker 1: idea that we were going to talk about this new venture.

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Speaker 1: I sit down with him and first thing out of

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Speaker 1: my mouth is, Okay, what's Fanatics? I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: small company based out of Philadelphia. Certainly learned everything I

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Speaker 1: knew about Michael about how he had transitioned from selling

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Speaker 1: part of his company to eBay buying part of that

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Speaker 1: company back creating Fanatics along with a couple of other companies.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that had me at literally the tagline

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Speaker 1: you had me at hello was he said, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do a deal with the players first because I

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Speaker 1: believe in the value of their IP and to be

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Speaker 1: dead honest, whether it was a deal with EA Sports

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Speaker 1: or a deal with any of the other people, Panini

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Speaker 1: or Tops. At the time, almost no one had approached

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Speaker 1: us with this idea of capitalizing the value of player

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Speaker 1: group licensing rights. And so the idea was, we would

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Speaker 1: do this deal with him first for the player side

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Speaker 1: of the deal, and then he would do the deal

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Speaker 1: with the league for the front of the jersey. And

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Speaker 1: the other idea was, hey, if this works, the equity

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Speaker 1: position was really important to us. So we did a

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Speaker 1: cash plus equity deal. And the idea was pretty simple.

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Speaker 1: You know, at that point, it's a linear deal of

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Speaker 1: if this vision works, this is truly a win win

382
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Speaker 1: for everybody. And Michael is a visionary. I would be

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Speaker 1: lying to say that he was an easy negotiation. You know,

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Speaker 1: we are really really good friends, but every now and

385
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Speaker 1: then those deal points go literally to the death. But

386
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Speaker 1: I appreciated his vision about doing something that broke the paradigm,

387
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Speaker 1: and literally that idea leads to whatever it is ten

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Speaker 1: years later, this idea to create one team partners. We

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Speaker 1: would have never been there but for this concept that

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Speaker 1: there was an underappreciated value in group player rights. And look,

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Speaker 1: you know, Alex all due credit. You know, first of all,

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Speaker 1: it goes to Michael for that idea. But man if

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Speaker 1: I had to go back and thank a person who

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Speaker 1: meant a lot to me and you, Marvin Miller. Marvin

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Speaker 1: did the first trading card deal. And I had the

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Speaker 1: pleasure or sometimes not the pleasure of learning from Marvin

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Speaker 1: over a period of kind of the last year of

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Speaker 1: his life. He really got my head on straight about

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Speaker 1: how to be a union leader. But Marvin, I think

400
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Speaker 1: has to be credited with that idea that players have

401
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Speaker 1: a value both on and off the field, and this

402
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Speaker 1: idea that your IP, you know, your group licensing rights

403
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Speaker 1: has an independent value, separate, in apart from league value,

404
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Speaker 1: and when those two parties come together, great things happen.

405
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Marvin Miller, of course, the legendary former head of

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Speaker 2: the Major League Baseball Players Association. Correct. Yeah, And so

407
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Speaker 2: Alex pick up there, because you know, I do think

408
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Speaker 2: this is this is one of those moments where I'm

409
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Speaker 2: going to lean in hard to your expertise, having you know,

410
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Speaker 2: been I was gonna say on the other side, but

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Speaker 2: not on the other side, on the side of d

412
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Speaker 2: in terms of being a player, because you're a uniquely

413
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Speaker 2: positioned to sort of talk about what it feels like

414
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Speaker 2: to be, you know, one of the flock as it was,

415
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,679
Speaker 2: and to have someone like D as your leader. What

416
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Speaker 2: was your experience there?

417
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, I've always said that our president

418
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Speaker 3: is shaped by our past, and you know D mentioned

419
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, I was an eighteen year old rookie

420
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Speaker 3: playing for Loopanela and in front of King Griffy Junior,

421
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Speaker 3: I mean, one of my great mentors and great friends.

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Speaker 2: To this day.

423
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Speaker 3: And August twelfth, we walked off the field and I

424
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Speaker 3: was eighteen years old and I called my mom, I said,

425
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Speaker 3: what do I do now?

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Speaker 1: Right?

427
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Speaker 3: And then I called Don Fear and the great gene Orza,

428
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 3: who were both they followed Marvin Miller for twenty six

429
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Speaker 3: years as leaders and they're great role models of mine.

430
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Speaker 3: And the reasons why I'm where I am today, A

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Speaker 3: lot of it is because Marvin Miller, Don Fear and

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Speaker 3: gene Orza, because they devoted their life their a don't

433
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Speaker 3: life to players like me. And it was so stressful

434
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety four when I saw teammates who had

435
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 3: mortgages and houses, who maybe had won too many cars,

436
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: and said when is my next paycheck going to be?

437
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 2: And it was a scary time.

438
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 3: And I'll tell you never think about leadership until you

439
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: need leadership. And in nineteen ninety four that started me thinking, boy,

440
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 3: I better have a plan for life after baseball, especially

441
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 3: when the average career is five and a half years

442
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 3: and you make ninety percent of your money income from

443
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 3: age twenty to thirty and less than five percent of

444
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 3: us have a college degree. So that's when people like

445
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 3: the Smith are giants because they really impact your entire life.

446
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 2: Do you feel the weight of that d when you

447
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: take that job? Because you're a very successful lawyer and

448
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 2: also a public servant up until that point. But this

449
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: is a different assignment. I mean, you have like men's

450
00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:00,160
Speaker 2: lives in your hands, their families, the potential, as Alex knows,

451
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: for either abject failure or generational wealth ahead of them.

452
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: So how do you approach that? What's the mentality that

453
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: you take to sort of take that on? Yeah?

454
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: You know, look, I was never a great athlete, but

455
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, I ran track in college and for me,

456
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: it was the most important thing about preparing for a

457
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: meet or an individual race was everything you did before

458
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: it started and you know, to a certain extent, you know,

459
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: everything that happens after the gun fires is for the

460
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: most part, the cards have already been dealt, right, And

461
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: so for me, it was all about engaging in this

462
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: kind of relentless game strategy. But to your point, what

463
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: comes from it is the gravity of it. And I'll

464
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: be the first person to admit I think I handled

465
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: the stress. You know, thirty percent in a good way,

466
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: probably seventy percent in in a not so great way.

467
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: But these jobs take a lot out of you, and

468
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: I think I think they should if that makes sense.

469
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: I think that if you don't approach these jobs in

470
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: light of a young eighteen year old who has a

471
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: short window of earning capacity, and if you don't appreciate

472
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: the level of pressure that that young person is under

473
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: each and every day just to stay on the team.

474
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: I mean, forget, forget the at bats right, or the snaps,

475
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: or whether you catch the first down. The relentless life

476
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: of a professional athlete is so stressful just to stay

477
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: on the team. And I think one of their strengths

478
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: is the power of singular thought, and so that just

479
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: simply means that when it comes to you know, a

480
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: collective bargaining agreement that you know, for US, I did

481
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: two ten year deals. You know, those deals are two

482
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: hundred billion dollar deals, and they impact the healthcare of

483
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: young men. They impact the pensions of young men. I

484
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: mean a quick story when the league locked us out

485
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: in March of twenty eleven. You know, yes, they cut

486
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: off the salaries, but they also cut off the healthcare.

487
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: So I mean we had around thirty women expecting birth

488
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,239
Speaker 1: who lost their healthcare coverage. So, you know, Jason, when

489
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: everybody is talking about the lockout and millionaires versus billionaires,

490
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: and it's the you know the frame in the public.

491
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: You know, it's place of well, there's plenty of money

492
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: to go around, and players just need to figure out

493
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. It's tougher when you're sitting in a

494
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: chair and a young person comes to you and says,

495
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: what are we going to do for insurance coverage to

496
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: cover my special needs child? Or the fact that I'm

497
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: providing insurance to my parents, my elderly parents, or my

498
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: wife or partner is about to give birth. Those become weighty,

499
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: meaningful moments that I think it should take a lot

500
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: out of you, because it shouldn't just be you know,

501
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: whether or not I get a certain you know, item

502
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: on the ACEL spreadsheet the right way way or not.

503
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: It has to be will this deal and all my

504
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: actions leading to a conclusion that hopefully are gonna make

505
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: our players better off than they were the day before.

506
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 1: And by the way, you and I work with one guy,

507
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: Mike Wiener, who Mike was really other than Marvin. Mike

508
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: was the person who really taught me the humanity of

509
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: the job.

510
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: And remind us who he is.

511
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: Michael Wiener was the head of our union and he passed,

512
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 3: you know, not many years ago, and he left a

513
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 3: giant hole in our union. And look, it's interesting you

514
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 3: say that, d because Marvin Miller gin Or's don don

515
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 3: fear are ten out of ten when it comes to

516
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 3: IQ Intelligence deal communicators. And they said, actually, Michael Wiener

517
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: could have been the smartest of all of them. And

518
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 3: he was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

519
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: He died of a brain tumor, I mean, just at

520
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: an incredibly young age. And you know we've shared the

521
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: story before, Alex, you talk about the emotional humanity part.

522
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: I think that was the first time you and I

523
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: met was at Mike Waiter's funeral. At the funeral, yeah,

524
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: and Jason, he was the only player there.

525
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: Wow.

526
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: I never forgot that for what it said about Alex.

527
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: But I also never forgot it for what these jobs

528
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: sometimes mean, right, I mean, you serve a role, but

529
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: sometimes I think a lot of people view it as

530
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: purely transactional. But I was like stunned at how few

531
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: players were at Mike's funeral. And there is probably you know,

532
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: I agree with you on his intelligence and his IQ.

533
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: He was brilliant, but his emotional level of EQ was unmatched,

534
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: And really no one taught me just sort of that

535
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: emotional investment that you have to make in this job.

536
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: And so taking all that into account, d the stress

537
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: of it, the weight of it, how do you take

538
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: that experience and your previous experience and apply it in

539
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: a way that is meaningful to you? And I say

540
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: that in part because while it was difficult, and you've

541
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 2: talked about that, it was very meaningful. You had a

542
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: very direct impact on thousands of people's lives, tens of thousands,

543
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: you know, potentially, especially when you think about the families

544
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: and whatnot. A lot of people stay in jobs like

545
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: that because they do come with a lot of emotional

546
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: and psychic reward even though they have an emotional toll.

547
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: So in the same way that I know that Alex

548
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: has thought about how do you recapture some element of

549
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: what it's like to win a World Series? And he's

550
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: got a pretty good answer to that. Now, being an

551
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 2: owner of a couple professional franchises, what do you do next, Like,

552
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: what is going to give you that level of satisfaction?

553
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: For me, probably the thing I love the most is teaching.

554
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: I think the two things that it does for me

555
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: is in one sense, it replicates the idea that I'm

556
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: a part of a team. And you know, the one

557
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: thing I kind of miss at the PA was this

558
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: this camaraderie of it's a merry band of misfits in

559
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: some way, you know, fighting for a just cause, and

560
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: that part is very cool. And the other part of

561
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: it is teaching players about what this system is and

562
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: what it means and sort of vesting them, you know,

563
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: with being in control of their own destiny. And I

564
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: think that was a great part of being at the PA.

565
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: Teaching in a lot of ways does the same thing.

566
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: It allows me to lead, you know, a much smaller team.

567
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: But this idea of looking at sports and the business

568
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: of sport and the law of sports, along with the

569
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: ethics and the morality that goes into it. It's another

570
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: chance to take another group of extremely young people who

571
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: might think about baseball, football, basketball in one way, but

572
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 1: introduce them to the Marvin Millers of the world and

573
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: the Don Fears of the world, and the Alex Rodriguez

574
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: of the world, and the guys who went on strike

575
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: in ninety four and the guys who went on strike

576
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: for football, and the guys who survived the lockout in

577
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: twenty eleven, and giving them a perspective in both law

578
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: and business about what does this mean and what does

579
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: your role in it mean? And in a way, I

580
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,239
Speaker 1: just hope that everybody learns that they just don't have

581
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: to be a mercenary, right. I Mean, there's just a

582
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: lot more ways to get meaningfulness and sort of a

583
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: thorough vitality of it out of your day to day job.

584
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 1: And it should be something more than just coming in

585
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: and punching a punch clock and says, Okay, I'm just

586
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: going to take on this role and I'm going to

587
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: do this thing. I mean, I think if if you're

588
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: able to grab that sense of where your role is

589
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: and how it fits in a larger continuum. I mean,

590
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: for example, man, I loved being the executive director because

591
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: I thought I was in that Marvin Miller continuum and

592
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: that Gene Upshaw continuum. And I love teaching now because

593
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: the best thing that Marvin gave to me and the

594
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: best thing Mike Wider gave to me, they were just

595
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: fantastic teachers. And this idea of paying it forward, right,

596
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure you had guys in ninety four who really

597
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: put their arm around you and the young guy, man,

598
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: this is what this is about. And without that person

599
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: framing it for you, you think, okay, man, we're out of work.

600
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: Right.

601
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: But you know, the Baseball Players Union became the strongest

602
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: union in sports after nineteen ninety four because people understood

603
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: the meaningfulness of it and what was at stake and

604
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: that obligation to pay it forward.

605
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's so true to I mean, it was unbreakable,

606
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: and the shadows of Marvin Miller lived in our locker

607
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: room and those meetings in New York and you know,

608
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: all locker rooms all around, all thirty stadiums, and it

609
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: was unbreakable. And they tried, and having leadership in times

610
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: like nineteen ninety four was one of the greatest learning

611
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: experiences of my life.

612
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned the word mercenary.

613
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: The opposite of mercenary is missionary, which I think is

614
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: the ultimate description for your job of heading of you know,

615
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: thousands of men that sometimes don't know where to look.

616
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: They can't look at their agents or their parents or

617
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: single parents, you know, like like mine. So we looked

618
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: at folks like you and Marvin Miller and Don Fear

619
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 3: and so on and so forth. I am fascinated by

620
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: different type of negotiating styles. Now you're going up against

621
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: a titan in Roger Goodell, for you know, over ten

622
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: years and two different.

623
00:32:58,960 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: Cbas and all of that.

624
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 3: You're also going up against thirty two bosses that are

625
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 3: thirty two of the most prolific negotiators in the world. Ye,

626
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 3: what is your negotiated style when you have a hand

627
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 3: versus when you don't have a hand? Walk me through it?

628
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: And how important are relationships in that?

629
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

630
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I mean it's probably easiest to

631
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: talk about what's that style when you don't have a hand, right,

632
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: And sometimes not having a hand is an easier negotiation

633
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: than having one because you have a limited number of options,

634
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: right just to be dead honest. I mean, if you

635
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: juxtapose the deal in twenty eleven, you know, we're trying

636
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: not to play two games for free. We're trying not

637
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: to give up twenty percent of our salaries, and we're

638
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: trying not to lose our pensions. You know, twenty twenty,

639
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: it's okay, the league wants at seventeenth game. What's the

640
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: price of the seventeenth game? So in a way, the

641
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty deal was harder from a deal point because

642
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: you're trying to balance a number of things you want

643
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: on your side and a number of things they want

644
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: on their side. Twenty eleven, you know we had a

645
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: tough hand. You just are trying to avoid sort of

646
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: an existential destruction, if that makes sense. So, you know,

647
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: not having a great hand. The negotiation strategy was how

648
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: do we get a better hand? And again, you know,

649
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: much like the analogy of you know, once I put

650
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: my hands down on that, you know that one hundred

651
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: meter line, you know, once the gun sounds, you know,

652
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: whatever happens happens. The strategy in twenty eleven was we

653
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: have a terribly bad hand. So how do we convince

654
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: these guys that we have a better hand? And literally

655
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: it was, hey, look, if we have two hundred million

656
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: dollars to hold out and they have four billion, I

657
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: don't care what kind of negotiator you are. I mean, Jason,

658
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: you're gonna put me in the ground. Alex, You're gonna

659
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: put me in the ground. There's nothing I can do

660
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 1: if I figure out a way to demonstrate that your

661
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: four billion was a violation of our collective bargaining agreement,

662
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: and I can freeze that or get a judge to

663
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: nullify that. Well, now what happens. You know that seesaw

664
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: now goes from here to here? Right? If I can

665
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: negotiate a secret insurance policy and keep it secret, right,

666
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: and then negotiate the deal as hard as we can,

667
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: and then at the last minute throw down that card.

668
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: Now you may not have a great hand, but you

669
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: don't have an existential bad hand. And again, going back

670
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: to leadership, thank you for all the lovely things you

671
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: said about me, But that Drew Brees, Brian Dawkins, Kevin Maway,

672
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: Jeff Saturday group, think about what they did. You know,

673
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: not only you know, they made an okay decision kind

674
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: of finding me, thank goodness. But I went to them

675
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: in early twenty eleven and said, we have this ability

676
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: of constructing this first ever lockout insurance policy, and it's

677
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: going to cost us fifty million dollars. But if we

678
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: get fifty million dollars, it's going to give the players

679
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: close to nine hundred million dollars and that'll take care

680
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: of our men throughout this lockout. And sort of in

681
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: the same way, Alex, that you know you talk about

682
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: that unbreakable. The reason it was unbreakable is you guys

683
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: had solidarity for us. We didn't have that history of solidarity.

684
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: I needed to replace that lack of history of solidarity

685
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: with we're gonna be able to tell every one of

686
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: our guys that you and your family are okay. And

687
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: it's not going to replace your entire salary, but for

688
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: an entire year, you can afford groceries, you can afford

689
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: your rent, you can make your car payments, and you

690
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: can afford insurance. But what I told those guys was,

691
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: here's the deal. If we get the insurance policy placed,

692
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have to do things that have never

693
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: been done before in Europe and in Saudi Arabia and

694
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 1: other places that I can't mention. If this thing really

695
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: goes well, we'll never have to use it. So think

696
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: about a group of guys who literally not only agreed

697
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: to spend fifty minus onion dollars of the union's money,

698
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: but knowing that if everything works out, we're never going

699
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: to use the insurance policy. In that level of leadership,

700
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: I mean, we had that insurance policy for months and

701
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: no one leaked it.

702
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: No wow.

703
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: And then you get to you get to a day

704
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: and you get to throw that thing down on the

705
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: table in front of Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft and

706
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: Roger Goodell, and you know that's a good day for

707
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a little bit of it.

708
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: Jason.

709
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: I have a question for you, Jason, Okay, now, how

710
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: much would you have paid or we have paid to

711
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 3: be in the room there would and mister Jones, Roger Goodell,

712
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: I mean.

713
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: The faces because those I mean to Alex's to the

714
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: way he framed the question. D It's like these guys

715
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 2: are not used to getting one put over on them,

716
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: No at all.

717
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: No, and they were You talk about the last thing,

718
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: the relationships one owner. I won't tell you who it is,

719
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: but one owner knew about that beforehand.

720
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

721
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: I made a tactical decision that while it's fun to

722
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: kind of throw down that card, you know, one of

723
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: two things can happen, right, Well, I guess to be

724
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: dead honest, only one good thing can happen. About twenty

725
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: bad things can happen. And so the strategy, you know,

726
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: really became, we need to have someone react to that

727
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: in a positive way to now champion us staying as partners.

728
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

729
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: Right, And I guess you know one of the things

730
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: I think that you know, people sort of missing sort

731
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 1: of these sort of multi tiered, you know, incredibly complex

732
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: business transactions. Someone on both sides of the deal needs

733
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: to be a champion of the deal. Yeah, you know right.

734
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: I think that you know, tell vision and the media

735
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: kind of always posits this thing. As you know, there's

736
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: a strong armed person who's like, this is the way

737
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: we're doing it, and the other person is this the

738
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: way we're going to do it, and then somehow they

739
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: just begrudgingly shake hands at the end of the day.

740
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't work like that. If you don't have a champion,

741
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,919
Speaker 1: you can spin in the work. It doesn't work.

742
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: You speak about owners, and owners I think sometimes don't

743
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: get enough credit for some of the things they do.

744
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 3: Some of the things they do are very missionary. They

745
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: give back to the community. They're great role models. Who

746
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: are maybe two or three that you looked at that

747
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: maybe you admired. There were great colleagues, great business partners,

748
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 3: and maybe something you learned from one or two of those.

749
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: Any you can mention, sure, you know, I would be remiss.

750
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: Robert Kraft taught me more about this business than a

751
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: he needed to, and gave me more guidance than I

752
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: probably was entitled to. Wow, And he's a friend. We

753
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: have certainly had our dust ups. When he wants to

754
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: go to war, he can go to war, and when

755
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: I can go to war, go to war. But of

756
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: all of the owners, and there were several, I mean,

757
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: you know Charles Johnson, actually you know who who took

758
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: over running the jets. You know when Woody was overseas,

759
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: was you know, a wonderful person to learn from. Jed York.

760
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: I would even be lying to you if I didn't

761
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: learn things from Jerry Jones, you know, quick aside on Jerry.

762
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that people don't realize

763
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: in twenty eleven was while there was certainly a battle

764
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: between the owners and the players, you get this. Sometimes

765
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: there's battles between owners. Yeah, And there was a battle

766
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: between the small market teams and the large market teams.

767
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: And there were battles between teams that did a great

768
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: job of generating revenue and some teams that didn't do

769
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: a great job generating revenue. And I would have never

770
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: understood that nuance but for Jerry, and I would have

771
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: never understood the complexity of the owner's side of the

772
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: table if I didn't have the friendship of Robert. You know,

773
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: we could do an entire show on the the inter

774
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: plays between owners. I mean, that's its own. It's hard,

775
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, And I think Roger did a great job,

776
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 1: you know, especially getting to twenty I think, look both

777
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: of us in twenty eleven, that was our first deal,

778
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: you know, and we have a certain constituency that we

779
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: have to serve, and he has a constituency that he

780
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: has to serve. And for whatever reason, the powers that

781
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: be proclaimed that we were to have a war, and

782
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: we did. But you know, at the same time, did

783
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: we do some great things. Yeah, we changed the health

784
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: and safety paradigm in football, you know, getting rid of

785
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: two A days and cutting back on practices and sideline

786
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: concussion experts and frankly, just to be dead honest and blunt,

787
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: I know that DeMar Hamlin is alive because of the

788
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: safety protocols that we put in after twenty eleven. And

789
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: so I think a lot of people like to, you know,

790
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,240
Speaker 1: talk about sort of the warfare side of this job.

791
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: But sometimes you have to have big wars in order

792
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: to lead to even greater things. Yeah, but it always

793
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: comes down to, I think, to the character and the

794
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: willingness of the people who poor pulling strings.

795
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: All right, So we're gonna wrap this up with our

796
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: lightning round. It's five questions. Yep, we'll bounce it back

797
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: and forth. So just the first thing that pops to

798
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: your mind. Okay, what's the best piece of advice you've

799
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: ever received on deal making or business.

800
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: From Robert Kraft? This is not a straight line business.

801
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 2: What's your dream deal making partner?

802
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 1: I mean, can I just fan boy just for a second.

803
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 1: It really doesn't have anything to do with a deal man.

804
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: I'm just such a Bo Jackson fan. So I mean,

805
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: if I could be at the table when you know

806
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: that transition from him from college to football, from football

807
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: to baseball. I'd want to be in the room with

808
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: him as a partner talking about that.

809
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: Which team do you want to see win a championship

810
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: more than any?

811
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: Oh? I mean I grew up a Washington football team.

812
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: Guy.

813
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: You kind of come out of the womb and it's

814
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: you know, Darryl Green and Sonny Jurgensen and all those guys.

815
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: I mean that was if I still have a team,

816
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:21,479
Speaker 1: that's a team.

817
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: What's your hype song before a big meeting or negotiation?

818
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: Oh goodness, I always go back to either jay Z

819
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: Big Pimpin or Beastie Boys. No sleep till.

820
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: Brooklyn Love It. Okay. What's your advice for someone listening

821
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: who wants a career like yours?

822
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: Pepto bismoal I was always a Tombs guy. You know

823
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: Tom's with a blacka chaser. I think Alex kind of

824
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: hate on it. There is no straight line path, right,

825
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: you know the lessons you learned out of the lockout

826
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: of Okay, I've got this short earning capacity. You know

827
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,720
Speaker 1: you talk about players of retiring. Nobody retires. You're thirty

828
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: years old, right, I mean, it's what's your next play?

829
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: And so my advice to anybody who who wants this

830
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: career or you know, for some crazy reason or a

831
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: career in sports is man learn how to master your game.

832
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: And so for me, I knew I wanted to be

833
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: one of the best trial lawyers you know on the planet,

834
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: and that transitioned me and put me in this sort

835
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: of batter's box to go to a great firm and

836
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: learn from a guy like Tom Boggs, and then that

837
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: allowed me to transition into an executive director job, and

838
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: then that allowed me to do a deal with Michael Rubin,

839
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,439
Speaker 1: and then that allowed me to do the one team deal.

840
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: I think young people tend to look at the end

841
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: instead of looking at okay, what are the individual you

842
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: know at bats you know that I have to have

843
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: in order to be in the position to do things

844
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: that are meaningful for me. So that's kind of my

845
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: own advice.

846
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: D Smith, you are the best. Thank you, Thank you,

847
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: guys than we were really really looking for to this one.

848
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: The book is Turf War is the Fight for the

849
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: Soul of America's Game, and it is out now, so

850
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: pick it up.

851
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: Thanks, good to see you guys. Thank you.

852
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: That was fun, Buddy. The Deal is hosted by Alex

853
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: Rodriguez and me Jason Kelly. This episode was made by Anamazarakus,

854
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: Stacey Wong, and Lizzie Phillip. Amy Keen is our editor

855
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: and Will Connelly is our video editor. Our theme music

856
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: is made by Blake Maples. Our executive producers are Kelly Leferrier,

857
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: Ashley Hoenig, and Brenda Nenham. Sage Bauman is the head

858
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 2: of Bloomberg Podcast. Additional support from Rachel Carnivale and Elena

859
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,959
Speaker 2: Los Angeles. Thanks so much for listening to the Deal.

860
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 2: If you have a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show.

861
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 2: It'll help other listeners find us. I'm Jason Kelly. See

862
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:50,479
Speaker 2: you next week.