WEBVTT - TURNOUT Episode 9: ‘Giving makes me feel like I’m living’ 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.920 Progressive presents forrest metaphors about bundling your home on auto 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:06.880 in sports, three goals is a hat trick, and when 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.080 you bundle your home and auto with Progressive you get 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.480 a hat trick of great savings and round the clock protection. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:13.600 So you might be thinking, wait, that's two things. A 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.320 hat trick is three, But in this metaphor, great savings 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.239 counts as two goals, and so does a round the 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.360 clock protection, so it's like four goals and that's more 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:25.759 than three. It's basic math forest metaphors presented by Progressive 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.120 Bundle and Protect Today, Progressive centulty in Trance Company and 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.800 ifially gets discount of the little in a state of situations. Hey, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:32.920 it's Amy Brown from four Things with Amy Brown on 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.040 the Nashville Podcast Network, a podcast where in each episode 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.959 you're gonna get at least four things that will hopefully 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.680 contribute to your life in a positive way. Guests come 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.320 on like celebrities or therapists or doctors or maybe even 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.760 just my friends, and everyone shares stories that may inspire, motivate, 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.120 or sometimes just give you a much needed laugh. We 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.440 cover topics that range from therapy to gratitude. Listen to 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.880 four Things with Amy Brown on the I Heart Radio app, 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:02.160 Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.320 Robert sex Reese, host of The Doctor Sex re Show, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.720 and every episode I listened to people talk about their 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.640 sex and intimacy issues, and yes, I despise every minute 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.600 of it. And she she made mistakes too. She heal 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.399 everyone at her wedding. But hell is real. We're all 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.039 trapped here and there's nothing any of us can do 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.959 about it. So join me. Won't you listen to The 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.720 Doctor Sex re Show every Tuesday on the I Heart 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.240 Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:38.080 I'm Katie Curic, and this is turnout. As you have 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:43.399 no doubt heard, the election welcomed historic turnout, But what 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.120 does that turnout mean? And who actually turned out? Data 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:52.160 journalists are starting to comb through the numbers. I'm Neil Rothchild. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.640 I'm the director of Audience for Axios and I also 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.640 cover politics from the data lens, and I wrote an 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:03.120 article about how to explain what happened in the election. Typically, 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.200 post election analysis like this is done mostly with exit polling, 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:12.080 but of course was no typical year because so many 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.240 people voted early this year well, exit polling is no 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.280 longer such a reliable way to get at this and 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.639 as we saw also with kind of the way polling 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.760 performed as a predictor of this election, like polling is 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:32.520 taking a big hit in reputation anyway, So forget exit 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.560 polls this year. To get a picture of who turned out, 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.639 data journalists like Neil can look county by county and 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:44.720 compare the tallied votes with available demographic information. All of 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.639 the results were looking at our official election results, uh 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.160 that are coming through each state, but you can divide 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.440 them up by each county because each state reports their 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.519 counties that feed into the state level total, which will 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:04.000 help to allocate electoral votes. So by looking at that 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.920 state voting total and then diving into the demographic area, 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.680 So this is a heavily Latino community, this is a 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.840 suburban area, so you can start to get a sense 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.680 of okay, so this suburb swung towards Biden by twelve 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:23.280 points compared to that allows you to start to really 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.320 like learn about what the key demographic trends were for 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:31.919 the election. What did the voting results say in these 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:37.160 key counties, what did the votes say? And for those areas, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:43.440 what changed in compared to what areas moved further left, 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.920 which areas moved for the right, Even if in both 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.560 cases they went Trump or both went Biden, those differences 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.440 of within twenty or thirty points, even for an area 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.240 that went for Clinton and Biden, can be really telling 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.520 for the key shifts that are undergird America's like political preferences. 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:09.120 When comparing voting data from two thousand sixteen to Neil 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.480 identified for trends that help explain the results. So the 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.880 first point is that suburbs have undergone a fundamental shift 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.000 in favor of Democrats and away from Trump. It remains 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.839 to be seen whether this is a lasting trend for 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.880 Republicans or whether this is just a very Trump phenomenon 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.400 that people in the suburbs a kind of turned off 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.279 by his behavior and his rhetoric. The second point is 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.279 that the blue areas have gotten even more blue, and 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.400 the red areas have really dug in for Trump. So 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.520 we're not seeing a lot of cases where some urban 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.200 areas have shifted towards Trump and some rural areas have 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.719 shifted towards Biden. Each of those have really become even 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.960 more entrenched in their politics. I really think it is 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.720 kind of a trust in in institutions. And for those 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.359 in the cities and around the cities, a lot of 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.279 them work for big employers and rely on kind of 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.760 institutions like government and media and big business for both 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.280 their livelihoods and kind of how they understand reliable information, 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:23.760 while those in rural areas become less dependent on those 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.320 companies and on those institutions and might be more kind 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:32.040 of self sustaining and reject being told what to think 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.560 or how to think. And so for them, Trump more represents, 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.640 you know, this idea that opposing what everyone else kind 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.839 of just takes for truth and assumes to be the case. 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:50.880 He really has galvanized that support across the country. Number 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.560 three is that the white working class vote in the 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.480 Midwest did not deliver for Biden, which is funny because 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.320 that was his appeal in the Democratic primary. American middle 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.480 class brings dignity and tegrity every day to work. They 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.000 deserve the dignity and tegutor reftlected in their leaders kind 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.920 of why you would vote for him instead of Bernie 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.800 or a Warren who might have more kind of educated 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.360 and progressive appeal but might not be able to get 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.159 those working class voters in the states that Clinton lost in, 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:29.599 which was Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. And then the last 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.880 point that helps to complicate things a bit is that 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.040 Latino support for Trump grew in a number of key regions. 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.680 Cuban support for Trump in Miami Dade County got a 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.920 lot of the attention on election night, but it was not, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.160 you know, unique to just that area where there was 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.200 trends towards Trump. In the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.919 a number of those counties had like double digit, twenty 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.200 plus point shifts towards Trump compared to what Clinton saw. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.920 Neil says, there are a few surprises about this election 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:11.760 that are worth noting. Trump has gotten more minority support 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.720 than Republican candidates for president in a couple of decades, 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.800 So he ended up, you know, being able to tap 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.360 into something that I don't think either party was really 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.480 expecting to be the case. And you know, there could 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.000 be a few factors that worked into this, like maybe 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.400 the Trump campaign on the ground operation was just able 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:35.560 to knock on doors in these areas that the Biden campaign, 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.960 you know, figured that could be done remotely. Maybe it's 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.720 just a high turnout election, and some of that, you know, 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:47.520 Latin America Catholic tradition, ended up resulting in support for 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:52.160 the Christian religious right for Republicans. That is also something 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:57.800 that people didn't see coming. Trump's rhetoric made it seem 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:01.680 like a gimme that Democrats would at the vast majority 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.320 and make even bigger gains in support for voters of color, 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:10.680 when that's actually the opposite of what we saw. As 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:15.000 the parties do their own election postmortems, Neal points to 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.680 a few key lessons. I think one area for soul 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:24.400 searching for Democrats is how Hispanic support for Trump has grown. 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.040 And it's not just the Hispanic vote, but even the 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.560 Black vote has turned towards Trump in a number of 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:35.199 these not enough that it became like a hugely meaningful 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:40.600 election trend, but even in cities like Philadelphia or Chicago 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.679 if Hillary won it by eight five points over Trump 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:49.280 in Biden, one handful of those by only eighty points 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.920 this year. So of course it's nowhere close to being 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.160 able to say Philadelphia or Chicago went red. But it's 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.400 these small shifts that hint at where Trump might be 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.839 able to corral more support. So for Democrats, who have 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.280 you know, grown to assume that they would always have 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.240 kind of the support of the base of people of 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.319 color in this country might make them, you know, reckon with, well, 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:16.760 there's more to be done and more that we need 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.600 to prove to show that we should earn these votes. 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:25.920 Republicans might see out of this that they can't rely 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.400 on forever having to depend on white working class voters 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:35.080 outside of cities, because that demographic is shrinking. It's poorer 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.880 than the rest of the country in population, it's shrinking, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.240 incomes are getting smaller. So this coalition might have delivered 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.120 for Trump in but it's not a long term strategy, 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.800 and they need to do more to you know, grab 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.599 that working class support and earn it in cities and suburbs. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.840 So it can't just be about kind of these rural areas. 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.280 You really need to make inroads where the population centers 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:07.200 are as for the rest of us. The real takeaway 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:12.240 is that proved we are more partisan than ever. We've 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:17.679 become even more polarized and even more divided, particularly by 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.280 our geography, where if you're in cities and around cities, 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.440 you believe one thing and trust a certain set of 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.080 facts and assumptions, whereas if you're outside of that and 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:31.240 you live in rural areas, if you live in the country, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:36.160 you not only don't embrace it, but you outright reject it. 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.360 And that, you know, has shown to be a huge 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.520 groundswell of support for Trump when we come back how 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:50.960 to mend those divisions? An interview with author Mitch Album. 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.680 My name is Hannah, I'm Dan, I'm Ben, and we 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.600 are group Love. If you're dealing with stress or anxiety, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.040 or just need some help, cal Hope is here for 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.880 all California and to free mental health resources to help 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.080 you navigate this uncertain time. Go to Calhope dot org 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.480 to live chat with one of their incredible listeners, or 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.920 call their warmline at one three three three one seven Hope. 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.760 That's one eight three three three one seven h O 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:21.920 p e hopeless here in California. Give us the over attention. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.120 We need everything you've got fast waiting on reparations would 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:29.079 beat the podcast. Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.120 We fight for the people because they got us in 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.760 the worst way, from the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.440 to Kant, from the left en clave to what the 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.120 neo Kanz every Thursday, cop the heading conversation and to 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.120 break us off with some break because we're waiting the reparations. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.840 Listen to Waiting on Reparations on I Heart Radio, app, 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:52.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Adoption of 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.880 teens from foster care is a topic not enough people 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.640 know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April Denuit, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.760 the host of the new podcast Navigating a Option, presented 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.280 by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.120 life adoption stories told by the families that lived them, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.959 with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.800 slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.040 Us Kids, brought to you by the U. S Department 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.880 of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:26.920 and the ad Council. Mitch Album is a journalist and 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.760 a best selling author. He wrote Tuesdays with Maury, perhaps 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.040 his most famous book, along with many others. He's a 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.559 really compassionate thinker and writer, so I thought it would 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.640 be interesting to hear his perspective on how divided we are, 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.840 the role of the media may be playing, and how 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:51.559 we can move forward. First, and foremost, let's talk about 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.520 the election. What a wild ride. Had you ever seen 0:12:55.600 --> 0:13:01.080 anything like this, Mitch in your life experience before? Are no? 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.800 I mean the closest thing was probably the last one, 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.920 you know, which I thought, well, won't get any wilder 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.840 than that. I think everything that's happening right now, Katie, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.240 is in the shadow of a very weird time. I 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.199 think the whole summer that we went through. I think 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.320 all the dividedness that's happened in the country. You know, 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.800 none of us, at least unless you're over a hundred 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.320 years old, have faced the pandemic and what it does 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.000 to your psyche, what it does to your frame of mind, 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.120 what it does to your sense of community or lack 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.760 of sense of community, how scared it makes you. And 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.360 I think all of those things are behind all the 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.960 craziness that's going on in so you know, the sports 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.760 term is a mulligan. You know, you get a mulligan 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.880 on a golf course for a year for a first 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.760 shot that just was errant. And we may need a 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.440 mulligan for this year because it was errant in its 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.000 own way. And I don't know about you, Mitch, I 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.240 guess in nineteen I'm not sure how old you were. 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:04.400 I US eleven, and I guess that's the closest thing 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.679 to compare what we're going through now in terms of 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:15.160 how divided and how passionate and how intense the division felt. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:20.360 You know, the country being divided isn't new. I think 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.360 the anger that comes with the division is fairly new. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.400 And I think that, uh, you know, they've always been 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.400 Republicans and Democrats, have always been liberals and conservatives, but 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.200 they haven't uh felt like the other one needs to 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.680 be wiped out the way it's sort of feels like now. 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.320 And I think that vitriol and that anger can be 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:47.280 directly tied to social media and to media in general. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.120 And they didn't have that. I remember I was alive, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.280 and I remember we didn't have cell phones or iPhones 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.200 or social media accounts. We had, but we had baseball 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.040 cards in our in the spokes of our bicycles. You know, 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.520 that's how high tech we were. In an essay you 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.640 wrote recently which I think got a lot of attention, Mitch, 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.440 you said, hopes for a national reconciliation may be threatened 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.560 by new battle lines. So what did you mean exactly 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.880 by that? Well, I didn't. I think that was the 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.240 headline for it. But what I wrote was, it won't 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.800 it won't really matter what we do on Tuesday if 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.120 we don't change what we do on Wednesday and Thursday 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.800 and Friday. And sadly it turned out to be prophetic 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.160 because Wednesday and Thursday and Friday were worse than Monday, 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.960 you know, uh in this particular case, because everybody was 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.440 still fighting over the results, and they still are as 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:44.000 we're as we're recording this, um. So you know, my 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:50.320 point was that vitriol and divisiveness they don't come to 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.520 a head on one day of every four years. They 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.760 take a lot longer than that to build up, and 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.720 they take a lot longer than that to bring down. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.320 And if anybody thought that there would be an election 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.640 and then oh good, we'll all just get along with 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.160 one another, they really weren't paying very much attention to 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.640 how we became divided in the first place. It wasn't 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.320 just over an election. It was over a lot more 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.800 than that. So an election didn't election didn't create it, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:20.360 An election wasn't likely to solve it. Um. But my 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.520 hope in that piece that you cited was that you know, 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.240 we tried to understand that we're a lot more like 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.000 than different. Um. But I've been saying that for a 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.000 long time and writing that for a long time. And 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.760 Maury said it to me when I wrote Tuesdays with Mari. 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:37.560 You know, it's probably the first time I heard it 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:42.800 verbalize that way. And what did he say again, exactly, Mitch. 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.440 He said, we're all more alike than different. That you know, 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.240 everybody thinks they're gonna die. Everybody knows they're going to die, 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.600 but nobody believes it. And he said, when you actually 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.520 believe it, when you start to realize. He had to 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.120 because he was dying from Luke Garret's disease and was 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.080 really facing his own mortality. He said, once you realize 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.560 you're actually going to die, you're human after all. You 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.720 feel a kinship with everybody else in the world who's suffering. 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:14.960 I remember once I watched him, we were we flipped 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.040 on the news. We almost never watched any television together, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.960 but we cloked on the news in Bosnia. There was 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:20.840 something going on at the time, Bosnia, and they had 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.800 some footage. It was very you know, violent, and and 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.840 he started crying and I said, why, why are you crying. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:29.800 He said, well, it's just so terrible. What's happening to 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.760 those people? I said, no, but you've never been there. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.600 You never been to Bosnia. You don't know anybody from Bosnia. 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:39.360 He said, Mitch, when you really realize you're dying, um, 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.480 you can you feel the suffering of everybody else in 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.399 the world who's suffering as well, and you realize you 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:48.320 were all more like than different. I mean that was 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.439 the context in which she told me that, and I 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.960 never forgot that because you know, here he was watching 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.280 something that we all watched, just passionately, and like, well, 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.720 I'm glad it's not here. And then we moved on 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.080 what what was different about him? Well, it was because 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.199 in his brain he had accepted the fact, you know, 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.040 he really was a human being with all the ending 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.359 that all human beings are going to face. And we 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.720 don't really walk through life accepting that until suddenly we 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.800 get hit with the doctor's diagnosis, or or we're in 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.920 a hospital all of a sudden and where we get 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:25.480 COVID uh and so um, that's the context that he said. 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.679 It's very very true. The problem, Katie is we have 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.520 to wait until we have a death sentence you know, 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:36.359 our terminal illness in order to recognize that we share humanity. 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.600 But unfortunately usually takes something like that to shake us loops. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.399 Let's talk about the role of the media, because you 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.760 were very critical of the media and your essay, and honestly, Mitch, 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.280 I'm very confused about how I feel about this, So 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.439 maybe you can help me be my therapist. But you 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.960 and I have been in the media for a long time. Yes, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.560 it's changed dramatically, but where do you think the media 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:06.200 has gone you know, where did it go wrong in 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:14.960 terms of its complicity in aiding and abetting the divisiveness. Well, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.720 I mean, you and I probably started in the journalism 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.199 business around the same time. And I remember going to 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.480 you know, I went to Columbia Journalism School. I got 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:28.040 my masters there, and I remember the opening speech that 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.000 the first day of school Osborne Elliott, who I think 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.159 at the time of the editor of Newsweek. Um, he 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:35.960 made a speech and he talked about, well, what this 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.879 business of journalism is all about? And it was all 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.159 about having a fire in the belly to try to 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.240 get to the truth of things and and all that 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.720 and and you know, to tell the stories that needed 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.880 to be told. None of it had to do with 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:55.240 bringing down people, belittling people, taking a side. None of 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.960 that was ever spoken about. I mean, if anything was 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.359 the other way around, it was you know, being visible, 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.159 you know, bring the news and not you, not your views. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.919 You know, that's not the way what we what we 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:11.080 call cable news today. Um. And I'm not taking sides 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:12.919 on any of it. I mean you can find you know, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:17.000 pretty much all across the board, uh, different degrees of it. 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.199 But it's not really news in the sense that you 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:24.119 and I when we started in the business commentary it's commentary, right, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.679 dis guy says, well, here's here's the factual thing that happened. 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:28.800 Let me tell you my opinion about it. Here's the 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.200 factual thing that happened. Here's what's wrong with it, here's 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:33.760 the factual thing that happened. Here's why these people are 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.480 doing what these people are doing. And so how we 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.920 got from where we were when you and I were 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.119 starting this to now, you know, you could point to 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.040 a lot of things. It's a long discussion, but somewhere 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.720 along the line, news started making money. You know this 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.800 very well, you know, and the news division started to 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:53.640 be places where you could see a profit was before 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.280 it was almost like something they did just for the 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.960 social good. You know, they made every television made its 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.760 money on their on the Lastie programs, and they put 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:02.520 the news up, you know, said okay, we have to 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:07.440 do the news. But when the news started to become profit, uh, 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.159 you know, people started taking different directions and it has grown. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.360 And you don't need me to rehash how Fox News 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.239 is going one direction, MSNBC another direction, CNN in another direction. Well, 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.680 I think also, I'm just going to add as as 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:24.679 the landscape became more fragmented, I think outlets became more niche. 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.040 So if they wanted to get an audience that was 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:35.840 loyal to whatever they were delivering, uh, it wasn't interesting 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.520 enough or enraging enough, because Kara Swisher calls it engagement 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.439 through enragement, that people would want to see stuff that 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:49.000 was conflict free or that was just the facts, ma'am. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.760 And so as a result, I think it was more 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:57.359 profitable to get to to give people. I've said this 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.240 a million times, but it's so fitting after me ation 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:06.400 instead of information to get them riled up emotionally. And 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.480 so I think that's one of the reasons we've seen 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:15.280 this bifurcated media landscape bubble up and explode if you will, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.720 in the last four years, that's right. I mean, it 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.160 seems kind of crazy, and I'm I'm you know. I 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.720 I try because I still rete for a newspaper, even 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.360 though I'm not primarily do books and movies and charities 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:30.800 and stuff like that, but I still write a newspaper column. Therefore, 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.000 I'm obligated to stay informed. And I watch all three 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.680 of the cable networks when I when I sit down 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:38.800 and watch, I will always flip back and forth because 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.520 I want to see not only the information, but I 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:43.359 want to see how people are playing the information, what 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:45.840 is it? And it's gotten to the point where it's 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.320 like reporting on different planets. You will see a totally 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.960 different broadcast on one cable news network, then you will 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.080 see on the other not the same stories, not the 0:22:55.119 --> 0:23:00.360 same footage. Forget about the commentary. The information isn't the same. 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.760 So even what people are choosing to bring forward and 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.240 choosing to suppress is different on every single channel. That 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:10.840 that shouldn't be. If you've got national news, chances are 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.520 of the news of the day should be the same 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.200 on each one. If you're really just talking about the news. 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.440 Here's the important things that happened. It's not. I mean, 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.080 you literally can watch at half hour of one program 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.880 and not see anything closely related to the other. So 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.879 I think that's where it begins. Then there's a problem 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:35.040 with the I think the geography of the country, and 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.720 I mentioned that, um in the piece that you referenced. 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:41.320 I live here in Detroit, in Michigan, I have for 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:45.359 many years, um for over three decades now, so I 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:47.840 consider this my home. But I was raised in the 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.719 East and I you know, I grew up in Philadelphia, 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:52.800 went to college in Boston. I lived in New York 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:56.040 and Florida, so I know East Coast, and I worked 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.040 for some publications on the East Coast is well. I 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.520 have a lot of friends who are still air back 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:02.800