1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey bestiees. 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 2: Today on the bright Side. If you've ever wondered if 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 2: you're getting the best out of a negotiation, well, today 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: is the show for you. We're joined by negotiation expert 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: and Wharton School professor Mari to Harryport. She's here to 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: give a masterclass and negotiation and offer the tools to 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: help us feel confident when we close a deal. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 3: We as women have such a hard time taking accountability 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 3: for all that we've accomplished. 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: Tell them what you've done. It's Tuesday, November twelfth. I'm 11 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: Simone Boyce. 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 4: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from 13 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 4: Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 4: share women's stories, to laugh, learn and brighten your day. 15 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: Well, today's show is all about negotiation, and I think 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: all of us have been in situations where we're working 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: on a new contract, negotiating a salary, or even just 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: asking for a raise and wondering, am I getting the 19 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: most that I can out of this deal? Am I 20 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: really optimizing this situation? 21 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 4: That's a huge question, and I hear so many people 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: offer anecdotal advice for how to get the best out 23 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 4: of a negotiation, but it can really be tough to 24 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 4: sort out what advice is worth following, what advice works 25 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 4: for you, and what advice is detrimental. 26 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this feels super relevant right now because I'm 27 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: hearing so many people talk about, you know, what a 28 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 2: competitive job market it is right now, and how negotiating 29 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: a compensation package today feels intimidating and more challenging than ever. 30 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 4: Well, today we are calling in an expert. Mari to 31 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 4: Harry Poor is one of the go to authorities on negotiation. 32 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 4: She's a twelve time award winning faculty member at the 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 4: Wharton School and the author of Bring Yourself, How to 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 4: Harness the power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. And the 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 4: title of her book, Bring Yourself, is so resonant it 36 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 4: is the ethos of her work. Unlike so many other 37 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 4: negotiation experts that try and give you tricks or tell 38 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 4: you to puff up or put a mask on, Maury's 39 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 4: work is all about how to be your best, brightest 40 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 4: self and use that to your advantage. 41 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 2: She brings more than twenty years of experience in negotiations, DEI, 42 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: and sports entrepreneurship. Maury, Welcome to the bright Side. Thank 43 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: you for having me super excited. When you say bring 44 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: yourself to negotiation? What do you mean by that? What 45 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: does that look like? In practice? 46 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 3: Authenticity really sort of bringing your full self to these conversations. 47 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: I don't think negotiations when it's at its best, is 48 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: meant to be acting or performative. 49 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: It's really hard. 50 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: I'm a big believer in being present in your life 51 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: in conversations and experiences, and if you treat it as 52 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: a place where you have to pretend to be something 53 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: that you're not, it's really hard to be present. It's 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: always like, in the back of your mind, you like, 55 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 3: am I supposed to smile? Am I not supposed to smile? 56 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 3: What am I supposed to say? 57 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: Now? 58 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: If you go in and have sort of this performative 59 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: stance and you're not really bringing your full, authentic self 60 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 3: to the table, I think it just takes away from 61 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: the experience and it's nerve wracking, to. 62 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 4: Be honest, I've sort of learned this by trial and error. 63 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 4: I think when I was younger, I thought I had 64 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 4: to puff up in a negotiation. 65 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: How did you come to this? 66 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 4: Because bringing your full self to the table is really 67 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 4: the ethos from which your work stems. 68 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: Was this also trial by er. 69 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think everything I've learned in my life is 70 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: like through challenges and mistakes, So I definitely do not 71 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 3: teach from the prick of perfection. 72 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: I think that most of. 73 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: My life, at least to sort of, I think late twenties, 74 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 3: which is now half of my life, I spent trying 75 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: to be what other people wanted me to be, particularly 76 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 3: my parents, and you know, they want me to be 77 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: a doctor. 78 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: I didn't end up being a doctor. 79 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 3: It's all of those expectations, the classic immigrant story, and 80 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 3: I sort of pretended that that's what I want to be. 81 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: And actually I don't think I even pretended. I didn't 82 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 3: give myself permission to know that. I was sort of 83 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: following the path that other people said for me. And 84 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 3: that's true of other things. I never wanted to disappoint people. 85 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: As a result, half my life I spent doing that, 86 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: and then I realized I'm not happy. I didn't even 87 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 3: understand that actually what happiness meant, nor did I think 88 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: I had the permission to be happy. It was exhausting, 89 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 3: and so when I started teaching, I so early on 90 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: in my career, I was again this person of this 91 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: is what you're supposed to say, this is what you're 92 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 3: supposed to do. I hated it, and I sort of thought, 93 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 3: maybe I wasn't built for this, maybe this wasn't meant 94 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 3: for me, and I thought, let me give it one 95 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 3: more chance. I sort of scrubbed my syllabus and started 96 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 3: all over again. And it was the first teaching award 97 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: I wanted. Wharton was that year. 98 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah. I love the idea of anchoring this conversation 99 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: in liberation because I think that takes a lot of 100 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: the pressure off of us when we go into nago shape. 101 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: This whole conversation tends to be very intimidating for a 102 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: lot of women I know, and has been for me 103 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: in the past. So I want to break down some 104 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: of the conventional wisdom that we've been conditioned to adhere 105 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 2: to over the past several years. So that wisdom was 106 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: that the wage gap between men and women was because 107 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: women weren't asking for more money. But actually, when we 108 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: look at recent studies, the research shows us that's not 109 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: true that women do negotiate for themselves, but that women 110 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: are often punished or ignored for doing it, for taking 111 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 2: that initiative. So how have you seen gender play out 112 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: in salary negotiation. 113 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm so glad you just said that, because 114 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 3: actually most people still think that women don't ask, and 115 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: that is why there's a gender pay gap. And as 116 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: you said, that's no longer true. In fact, we have 117 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: studies it shows that women ask more than men. On 118 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: the other side of that, women are asking more, but 119 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: we're also being rejected more, and that still, I think 120 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: speaks to a lot of the stereotypes here. We are 121 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: thinking that women have to fix ourselves, we have to 122 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 3: change the way we do things, but societal expectations and 123 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 3: gender norms and institutional biases, those things haven't necessarily changed. 124 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 3: When women behave in a way that is not reflective 125 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: of how people think we should behave, i e. When 126 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: women negotiate more assertively, we're not liked right from both 127 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: men and women, by the way, we still get that pushback. 128 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: And so there's sort of this double lighted sword right here. 129 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: I am talking about be yourself, be authentic, allow yourself 130 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: to do that, knowing full well that at the end 131 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: of that stands this notion of maybe potential rejection or backlash. 132 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: How long do we just pretend or how long are we. 133 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 3: Supposed to stand on the sidelines and not be active 134 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: in our own lives. And I just believe that people, companies, 135 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: we've sort of been met in the middle. It can't 136 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: be us just changing because apparently we have and still 137 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 3: we're getting rejected. You said men experience backlash too, first 138 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: of all, around salary negotiations. Nobody really likes to have 139 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 3: salary negotiations conversations. But what I was saying was that 140 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: actually women face backlash from. 141 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: Women and men got it. Yeah, thank you for clarifying. 142 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: Just because again, salary negotiations are not something that people 143 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: look forward to. I think it's generally conversations around money 144 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: that don't bode well. 145 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 4: There's a book that Simone and I have both talked 146 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 4: about on this show called The Likability Trap by Alicia Menendez, 147 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 4: and she talks about the penalty that you mentioned when 148 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 4: we do ask or negotiate for a raise, and then 149 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 4: we modulate our ask because we know there is a penalty. 150 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 4: In her book, she says that the research shows that 151 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: when women negotiate on behalf of a collective or on 152 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 4: behalf of somebody else, it's actually looked at favorably. It's 153 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 4: when we go it on behalf of ourselves that it's not. 154 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 4: I'm curious in your experience. If you've found ways to 155 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 4: solve for this quote unquote likability trap, I. 156 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: Would be making a lot more money than I am 157 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: had I solve that problem. 158 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: But I do love that book, by the way, because 159 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 3: I do think that likability plays such a big role 160 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 3: in all of this. By the way, likability is very 161 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: different than chasing this notion of being liked. 162 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: Right. 163 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: Likability is showing up in a way that people enjoy 164 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: the conversation. They like the fact that maybe you're smiling, 165 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: because research shows that when you smile that it's more 166 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: conducive to a better outcome. Right, logically it makes sense, 167 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: but it feels like a more engaging environment. People want 168 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 3: to engage long term with people that they like. 169 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: And that just makes sense. 170 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 4: I think I used to be the worst negotiator. I 171 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 4: still don't know how good or bad I am, but 172 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 4: from watching other people in real time, I've definitely felt 173 00:08:58,400 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 4: more confident. 174 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: At the very least, I just sighed when she said 175 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: I'm a terrible negotiator. 176 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: I'm not a great negotiator. 177 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 3: That was a very deep side that I hope that 178 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 3: you're at heart because it drives me crazy when particularly 179 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: women say that, largely because you've been negotiating all your life. 180 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: How could you not be a good negotiator? Oh wow, 181 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: your entire life, since you were a little girl, you 182 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: have been negotiating. So not only do you have practice, 183 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: but if you think about all of the conversations where 184 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: you have built bridges, where you've gotten what you wanted, 185 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: where you know you've been able to influence people. I 186 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: feel like if we realized that every conversation we have 187 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: is negotiations, you would have more confidence in yourself as 188 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: a negotiator. 189 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: So sorry, I just know. 190 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: I love that. Please check me. 191 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: That's right. You just got roasted, Danielle. I love it. 192 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: No, you're right. 193 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 4: We have been negotiating since we were little girls. 194 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right 195 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: back with Mariy to Harry Port. We're back with Maury 196 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: to Harry, Poor Maury. I think we all have been 197 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: there in the corporate bathroom, staring at ourselves in the mirror, 198 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: trying to give ourselves a pep talk before we head 199 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: into a really tough conversation salary negotiation. Raise ask. I 200 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 2: know that I've been there what is the best way 201 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: to prepare for a big negotiation talk, Like, do you 202 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 2: have a pep talk that you can share with us? Oh? 203 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: God, yeah, I give myself pep talks. I suffer from 204 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 3: imposter syndrome for sure. So for me it's not just 205 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: the negotiations but getting on stage. No matter how much 206 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: time I spend in presentations, there is that day where 207 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: that voice in the back of your head is saying, oh, 208 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 3: I don't know if you can do this. And you 209 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 3: know again in the bathroom near your office before you 210 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 3: walk into your bar's office, where you're there looking at 211 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 3: the mirror and thinking, I don't know if I can 212 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 3: do this, And I think that this notion of being 213 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 3: your own best advocate easier said than done, right, because 214 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: when we have those moments of not believing ourselves or 215 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: not loving ourselves or even accepting ourselves, then it becomes 216 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: really difficult because here you are walking to the conversation 217 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 3: where you actually have to then advocate on behalf of yourself. 218 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: And in those conversations that I have with myself, I 219 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 3: literally go through this sort of like inventory of of 220 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 3: course you can do this. Look how many things you've overcome? 221 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: Look at your achievements, think about what you've done. You've 222 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 3: been here before, you have the experience. And I have 223 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: to go through that sort of inventory list again. No 224 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 3: matter how many times I do this, that when that 225 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: voice sort of sneaks in and I'm like, not today, 226 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: not now, I can't do this. It's because I'm running 227 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: through this sort of deck, right, my own little slide deck. 228 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: And it's unfortunate, simone, right, because why is it that 229 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: we do that to ourselves? But I mean it's there, 230 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: and so I think that people have to figure out 231 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: something that works best for them. I have a hype 232 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: song right, like, it's it's a whole thing, right, what's 233 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: your hype song? It's an Mary jay By song. Say 234 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 3: it louder, don't whisper it, say it louder. Let's hear it. 235 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: Is it just fine? 236 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: Yes? I love that one. It makes me. 237 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: It's like, gets me so happy no matter where I am. 238 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: It's such a bop. It is the best. 239 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 3: And so like, if times are really bad, I'm listening 240 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 3: to the song and I'm in that bathroom hyping myself 241 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: up with the help of Mary. 242 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: J I think the hype song is an underrated piece 243 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: of the corporate I don't know pep talk advice, Like, 244 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: I just think that before every major event that's like 245 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 2: really terrified me. In my career, I've always had a 246 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: hype song that's like, patten me over the edge? What's yours? Mine? 247 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: Is really corny? It's probably it's probably a tie between 248 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: unwritten by a Natasha Beddingfield or a Beyonce song, Like 249 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 2: any Beyonce song. Yeah, any Beyonce. 250 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: Song, Beyonce, Whitney Houston. 251 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: Whitney Houston. That's a good one. Mm hmmm. Can we 252 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: get a little specific here though, morey, Let's say, in 253 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: the week before a negotiation, how can we prepare ourselves 254 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: through our inner dialogue? 255 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 3: I think that if negotiations, that thought of negotiations worries 256 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: you or stresses you out, the first thing I would 257 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 3: do is just reimagine it, right, think of it as 258 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: a conversation, think of it as problem solving. 259 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: Right. 260 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 3: And so women, by the way, are exceptional at problem solving, right, 261 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: That's one of our best qualities. So let's say again 262 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 3: it's salary negotiations, or you're negotiating your compensation package. Then 263 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: go through again that inventory thing, do all your research 264 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: because sometimes we minimize really important things that we do. 265 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 3: So if you keep a running list of this when 266 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 3: it comes time, then you actually have the evidence in 267 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: the details. Right, So it's right there sort of looking 268 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: at you and you're like, oh my god, I've done 269 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 3: all this. Absolutely. Think about what your non negotiables are 270 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 3: really important. I almost think that's actually the first step. 271 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 3: We all have things that are so important to us 272 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: that we cannot compromise, because then, no matter how good 273 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: the outcome is, we would feel like we lost. And 274 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: those things tend to be things like our values, things 275 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 3: that are so important. It's like the air that we breathe. 276 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: And it's almost like setting an intention before negotiations, Right, 277 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 3: this is how I want to be seen, this is 278 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 3: how I'm going to conduct myself, This is how I 279 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 3: want them to walk away, and then actually start thinking 280 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 3: about the other side. People do it in reverse. Sometimes 281 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: the first thing that they think is what are they 282 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 3: going to say? What are they going to want? Really important? 283 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 3: But you have to spend time doing that for yourself first, 284 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 3: because otherwise you're putting all of the weight on the 285 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: other side and you haven't done yourself justice. And when 286 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 3: you start thinking about the other side again, do some 287 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 3: scenario planning, what are some of the things that maybe 288 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 3: they'll push back on, what are some of the things 289 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: that it's going to be a benefit to them, so 290 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: that this is more of a WE conversation than a 291 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 3: me kind of conversation. And last thing I would say 292 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: is think about that individual as your advocate, not your adversary, 293 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: because what you want to do most people who are 294 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: even in that certain leadership role probably have to go 295 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: back to an hr rep right or think about their budget. 296 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 3: What you have to do is arm them with enough 297 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: data so that they can do that successfully on your behalf. 298 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 4: So we're in an economy right now where there is 299 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 4: different competition for jobs and that affects your leverage. And 300 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 4: anything I've ever read or heard about negotiation is that 301 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 4: it's all about your leverage. So I'm wondering how you 302 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 4: can get a realistic read on how much leverage you 303 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: do have going into a negotiation when this is a 304 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 4: job that you want and maybe even need. 305 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: So leverage is a really interesting word, right. Leverage has 306 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: very little to do with things like the size of 307 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: the institution or the resources that they have or you have. 308 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 3: And so really this is actually, here's your gift. Here's 309 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 3: what the upside of leverage is is that it's perception based. 310 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 3: So if you carry yourself in a way that says 311 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 3: I am confident, I believe I have power in this conversation, 312 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: then people believe that you have power and you have leverage. Right, 313 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 3: So it's really sort of what they see and how 314 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: you show up that's most important. The other thing I 315 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: would say is that people think if I turn around 316 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 3: and tell this person who is the hiring manager, that 317 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 3: I really want this job, that I really want to 318 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 3: work here, that's giving a way power, when in fact, 319 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: I think that is so crucial and so necessary. People 320 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: want to think that you want to be in this company, 321 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 3: that you're fighting for this role, right, this is something 322 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: that is important to you. The worst thing you can 323 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 3: do is say, well, you know, I really want to 324 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 3: work here, but actually there's another company that just gave 325 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 3: me a job offered to some sort of weighing my 326 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: options here. If as a hiring manager, is it I 327 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 3: kind of want to say, maybe you should look at 328 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: that other job. Convince us that you want to be here, right, 329 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 3: because then we'll fight for you. And so important, so underrated. 330 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: I think established that you want to be there. And 331 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: I think that this idea of goal setting, having an 332 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 3: aspirational notion of what it is that you want to 333 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 3: get as your compensation package, which includes your pay and 334 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: vacation and all that, is important because you shouldn't think 335 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 3: that just because the economy is not great, right, maybe 336 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 3: there's stiff competition. 337 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: I tend to have an abundant. 338 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 3: Mindset, and I really believe that it's how we look 339 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 3: at a situation and what our mindset is that determines 340 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: the kind of outcomes that we Research shows us that 341 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 3: I think it's really important to just reframe the conversation. 342 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: In a competitive job environment like this, Maria, I think 343 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: some people succumb to this pressure to aim really low 344 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: for a salary in order to just get a foot 345 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 2: in the door, and I think this can become a 346 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: point of tension or a tricky problem for people to 347 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: solve whenever they're asked to suggest a salary before a 348 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 2: job offer even gets made. What are some strategies that 349 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: you can offer us in order to navigate a situation 350 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: like that, or even when a question like that is 351 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: on an application form. Yeah, I hate those questions and 352 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: I really hate those questions. 353 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 3: When you're asked during an interview, I sort of say, 354 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 3: deflect as much as. 355 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: You possibly can. 356 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 3: Yes, right, definitely, if you're there in person meeting with someone, 357 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 3: I would deflect it. If you know your first point 358 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 3: was let me take less just to get my foot 359 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 3: in the door. I think that's why we have a 360 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: gender pay gap to some extent. Right, we didn't ask 361 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: for more. We didn't know how much we could ask for, 362 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: and so we minimized, and our perception of the opportunity 363 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: was not what it should have been. Right, men don't 364 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 3: have this problem. Right, That perception is there's always more 365 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: or why not? Why shouldn't I ask? And I think 366 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: we should emulate that quite frankly. But getting your foot 367 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: in the door means that either you have to stay 368 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 3: there forever for you to finally catch up, or if 369 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: you don't like negotiations, you're going to be negotiating really 370 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: hard to get to where you actually should have been 371 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: in day one later. So do your research, understand your industry, 372 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 3: know what people are getting paid, find equity in that, 373 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: so that when you do come into this conversation, you're 374 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 3: armed with that information and not in a way that 375 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 3: feels like you're being accusatory or that you're being demanding. 376 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 3: You're being confident, and you know your worth is sort 377 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: of your duty, it's your responsibility. 378 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 4: Deflection, I'm curious what you think is a good way 379 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 4: to deflect. 380 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 3: I would say, I'm not really comfortable talking about that yet. 381 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 3: I really want to learn more about the opportunity. I 382 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: have a lot of questions. I always have questions, right, 383 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 3: you don't you don't want to be in that position. 384 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 3: Whether they're like, do you have any questions and you're like, no, 385 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 3: this is great. 386 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 4: Right. 387 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: List the kinds of things you want to know more about, right, 388 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 3: whether it's your responsibilities, whether it's the duration, what will 389 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 3: it take for me to succeed in this role? And 390 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: it's okay to be the person who needs time to 391 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 3: think about the opportunity. 392 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 2: Right. 393 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 3: You don't have to answer just because they're asking. Some 394 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: people say I put a range out there. Make sure that, again, 395 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 3: you're educated and well versed, because you know, when you 396 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: give a range, people only hear one number, and that's 397 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 3: the one that would be most beneficial to them. So 398 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 3: depending on where the range is, the lower end should 399 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: actually probably be your goal. 400 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: I've also found that I have to get comfortable and 401 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: give myself permission to not answer on the spot, like 402 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: you just said, deflecting, particularly when it comes down to, 403 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: let's say, receiving an offer. If the offer comes in 404 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: verbally over a zoom or a phone call, sometimes I'll 405 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: get so nervous, like, oh, I got to say something, 406 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 2: I got to respond, and then I lock in this 407 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: number that I actually am not spiritually connected to, Like 408 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: I realized that it was actually way below my worth 409 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 2: and my value. So I've had to get comfortable with 410 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: just saying you know what, thank you so much. I'd 411 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: love to take a minute and sit on this. Can 412 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 2: I get back to you? What do you think about 413 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 2: my strategy is? Is that good? Bad? Love? Okay, love it, 414 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: love it? 415 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: And it's so human because look, you want the job, right, 416 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: You're like, oh my god, they gave me an offer 417 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 3: and let me accept. 418 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 4: Right. 419 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 3: The truth is, you don't even know what the offer 420 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 3: really is, right. There's so much more to it than 421 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: just your pay, right, So what is the entirety of 422 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 3: the compensation package? The other thing that you don't know 423 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 3: is just things you want to see in a contract, 424 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: right that that should be so important to your decision making. Right, 425 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 3: So when you say, you know what, I would love 426 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: to have a week, or I would have to have 427 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 3: forty eight hours, whatever it is that you feel comfortable with, 428 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 3: I'd love to consider this. And it would be really 429 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 3: great if maybe I could see this in writing and 430 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 3: understand the entirety of the compensation package so that I 431 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 3: can make a wise decision. 432 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: Right, I can be thoughtful about this. 433 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 3: So in some ways, simone, you look actually quite powerful 434 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 3: because you're saying I don't really need to respond on 435 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: the spot. I can wait, right, I'm not stressed, I 436 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: can hold off. 437 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of advice out there that 438 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 4: you can negotiate things other than your salary when you're 439 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 4: getting a job if they're not willing to budge on 440 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 4: a number. I've heard people talk about negotiating for a 441 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 4: little more vacation time. But even this can be really 442 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: difficult because many companies don't want to things in writing 443 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 4: or have blanket policies. How do you find wiggle room 444 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 4: to negotiate in that type of situation? 445 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: I mean, you're absolutely right. 446 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 3: Money is always the hardest thing to negotiate, right, And probably, 447 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 3: like you said, where companies have less bigobro right, especially 448 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: in the days now where there's more pay transparency. Right, 449 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 3: you sort of start getting locked in, but there's so 450 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 3: much more again to your compensation package. So, like, one 451 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 3: of the things that's really important is that the exit 452 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 3: the termination clauses that might be in the contract. Right, 453 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: And it's really hard to think about the exit because 454 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 3: you're so excited about the actual job, But it's really important. 455 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 2: Is there a noncompete clause? Right? So I would urge. 456 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 3: People to think about everything else in addition to the 457 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: salary and know that there's some really attractive things maybe 458 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: that you can ask for that could be more meaningful 459 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 3: to you. 460 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: Something that's always helped me whenever I'm going out for 461 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: an opportunity and negotiating for my salary, is this idea 462 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: that the person on the other side of the table 463 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: wants to solve this problem, like they want me to 464 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: work out because they have a position to fill and 465 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: I'm potentially the solution to a problem that perhaps has 466 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: been in the works for several months. I think that 467 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 2: dynamic shifts a little bit once you've already negotiated your 468 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: way into the job, right, But the negotiations don't stop 469 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 2: at the door. There are going to be times where 470 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 2: you're going to ask for a raise or a promotion, 471 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 2: or even negotiate your way into a project that might 472 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: be a little bit outside of your skills and abilities. 473 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: How would you go about raising the subject of a 474 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 2: raise or promotion with your boss? How do you go 475 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: about requesting that conversation? 476 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 3: It's we're coming up on air, or I'm so excited 477 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: about where we're going with these projects, right, I see 478 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 3: so much potential. I'd love to be a part of 479 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 3: those conversations. Can we talk about what your needs are? 480 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 3: Or I have room? Right, I have the opportunity, I 481 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 3: think to do more, and I'm really excited about what 482 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: I can contribute. 483 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: Right. So, people don't know what women. 484 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 3: Are capable of, to be honest with you, they have 485 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 3: these perceptions, especially if you're a working mom. They sort 486 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: of tend to think that they can put limitations on 487 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: what's possible for us. And everything is possible for us, right, 488 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: we're so great at juggling. Right, So people won't know 489 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 3: what you want unless you speak it. 490 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 4: Do you like when people bring receipts for these moments? 491 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 4: If you are wanting to make a case that your 492 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 4: performance deserve a raise or a promotion. I've heard people 493 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 4: talk about bringing in a list of all the things 494 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 4: you've done, or yeah, you're nodding, so yes, bring receipts. 495 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely right, that's the sort of the journaling, right, because 496 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: what you want to say is, these are all the 497 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: things that I've done. This notion of having pride and 498 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 2: what we do is not well looked upon. Right, there's 499 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: you know this one must be humble. It drives me crazy. 500 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: Look, we as women have such a hard time telling 501 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 3: our own story and taking accountability for all that we've accomplished. 502 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 3: So if we can learn to speak it that should 503 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 3: never be looked down upon. It should be celebrated. Tell 504 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 3: them what you've done. If not you, then who? And 505 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: if you leave it up to somebody else, I guarantee 506 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 3: you they will never know because you've spent too much 507 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 3: time trying to be humble about your accomplishments. 508 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 4: We have to take a break, but we'll be back 509 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 4: with Maury to Harrapoor. 510 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: And we're back. 511 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: What are the qualities and characteristics that make women excel 512 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: in negotiation settings? Oh? So many things. 513 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 3: The emotional intelligence problem solving, right, we're problem solvers at 514 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: our core ethics right, studies show that we're more ethical, 515 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: we actually have tremendous courage. I think, so when there 516 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 3: is a situation, when there's a problem, we tend to 517 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 3: actually stay pretty calm in the face of that. We're 518 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: like the force that comes in, does the cleaning up, 519 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 3: deals with the problems, and then they're like, thank you 520 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 3: very much, have a nice day. But in times of trouble, 521 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 3: you want a woman at the helm. But I think 522 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 3: it goes back to this notion, if we're really excellent 523 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 3: problem solvers, it's a falsehood to think that we're not 524 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 3: made for negotiations, when in fact, I think that we 525 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 3: are not only made to be great negotiators. But simone, 526 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: I think what we're also seeing is that more of 527 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 3: trainings for negotiations, more of the work that we're seeing 528 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 3: it to say, what does it take to be a 529 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 3: great negotiator? The things that are being taught, the characteristics 530 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: that are being put out there are actually far more 531 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 3: reflective of So if we're talking about gender and a 532 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: women's qualities than not I think the old school be brash, 533 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 3: be in their face, be the bully, right, that style 534 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 3: is sort of going out the door and people are 535 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 3: learning No, it is all about humanity, it's all about connections. 536 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 2: So that bodes well for us. 537 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: I think is it true that, to bring it back 538 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 4: to that word leverage, that you really only have leverage 539 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: if you're willing to. 540 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: Walk at its heart. 541 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 3: I think it's not only, but that does give you 542 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 3: tremendous leverage, right, And it's sort of a really straightforward 543 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: way of thinking about leverage. The person that says, I 544 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: don't know, this is a really bad offer, but I'm 545 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: afraid I'm not going to find another job, or all 546 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 3: the what ifs, right, all the scarcities, all the you 547 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: know what if nothing else comes along. Having that fear 548 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 3: overshadow your ability to think clearly. That person in that 549 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 3: instance does not have leverage because it was a bad deal, 550 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: but you felt like you had to take it anyway. 551 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: We can't punish ourselves for that. Instead, you give yourself grace. Right, 552 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: Sometimes there are no other options, Right, you have to 553 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 3: do what you have to do, but be thoughtful, think 554 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 3: clearly about it, and just know that that can't be habitual. 555 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 3: It can just be the right thing to do in 556 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 3: that instance. 557 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: MARII, I have a tricky predicament that my friend brought 558 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 2: to me the other day, and I wasn't sure how 559 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: to handle it. She was telling me about how she 560 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 2: shares kind of equal responsibility with one of her coworkers, 561 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: but she found out that her coworker is making more 562 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: money than her, despite my friend feeling like she brings 563 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: a lot more to the table than this person. What 564 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: is the best way to bring up this situation to 565 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: a supervisor, to someone who actually has the power to 566 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: change it without damaging both relationships, Because sometimes that's seems 567 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: like the potential whenever we're talking about salary transparency and 568 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: friend groups. Yeah, it is, it is. 569 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: That's a super loaded question, right, because again, there are 570 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: so many parties that you want to respect and protect 571 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 3: in some ways. 572 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: Right, when were they hired, when were you hired? Right? 573 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 3: How long have you been in that position? Has the 574 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 3: role changed significantly since the announcement was made for the job. 575 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: You have to know those factors as well, because if 576 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 3: you're unaware, then the person you're going to, your supervisor, 577 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 3: is going to point those things out, right, So be 578 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 3: ready for those types of instances. But if you go 579 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: back and say I found this out, we do share 580 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: sort of eco responsibilities. I think that we work really 581 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: well together. I just don't feel really good about this. 582 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 3: And what I've earned now is going to be indicative 583 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 3: of what I will earn in the future. So if 584 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 3: I start way back, I'm going to be forever chasing 585 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 3: that gap. So is there anything that you all can 586 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: do to bring me up to sort of par You 587 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 3: don't want to jump down somebody's throat, and you want 588 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 3: to make sure that you have the answers to the 589 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 3: questions that you believe somebody would ask if you were 590 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 3: in their role, right, you want them to be your advocate, 591 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 3: not your adversary. But speak up because you feel really 592 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 3: badly and sometimes you have to understand that maybe that 593 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 3: place wasn't meant for you. How do they value you 594 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 3: as a company, how do they value as an individual? 595 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 3: Right and your contributions and if they don't value you, 596 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: then maybe this is at that point, that inflection point 597 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 3: where you have to make some decisions. 598 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 4: Maury, this has been so enlightening. Thank you for your 599 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 4: time and your knowledge. 600 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 3: Of course this is great. Thank you for the conversations 601 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 3: that you all have. Thank you, Maury, thanks for listening. 602 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 4: Super kind of you. Mari te Heapor is a globally 603 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 4: recognized negotiation expert professor at the Wharton School and the 604 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 4: author of Bring Yourself, How to Harness the Power of 605 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 4: Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. 606 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by neuroscience 607 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: professor doctor Wendy Suzuki. She's here to tell us all 608 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: about how exercise relates to neuroplasticity. Join the conversation using 609 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: hashtag the bright Side and connect with us on social 610 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram and at the bright 611 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and feel free to tag 612 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: us at Simone Voice and at Danielle Robe. 613 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 4: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 614 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 615 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.